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🚀 What makes a great mentor? How is mentorship different from coaching? And how can sales leaders build a culture of mentorship that drives long-term success?
In this episode of The Future of Selling, host Rick Smith sits down with Brian Kludas, a sales enablement and leadership expert, to discuss the transformative power of mentorship in the sales industry.
🔹 What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
✅ The key differences between mentorship, coaching, and leadership
✅ The three levels of mentorship and how to apply them
✅ Why mentorship matters in scaling high-performing sales teams
✅ How to become an effective mentor (and mentee!)
✅ The biggest mistakes mentors make—and how to avoid them
✅ The key differences between mentorship, coaching, and leadership
✅ The three levels of mentorship and how to apply them
✅ Why mentorship matters in scaling high-performing sales teams
✅ How to become an effective mentor (and mentee!)
✅ The biggest mistakes mentors make—and how to avoid them
📌 Whether you're an individual contributor, a sales leader, or a business executive, this conversation will give you actionable strategies to build stronger relationships and accelerate career growth.
Connect with Brian on LinkedIn
Connect with Rick on LinkedIn
Learn more about Conquer
Connect with Brian on LinkedIn
Connect with Rick on LinkedIn
Learn more about Conquer
🎧 Listen now and subscribe for more insights on the future of selling!
Creators and Guests
What is The Future of Selling?
The Future of Selling is the go-to podcast for sales professionals looking to sharpen their skills and stay ahead in the competitive world of B2B sales. Each episode features expert interviews, real-world case studies, and actionable tips to help you navigate the complex B2B buyer's journey. Whether you're dealing with long sales cycles, multiple decision-makers, or rapidly changing technologies, we’ve got you covered. Tune in to discover the latest trends, best practices, and proven strategies for closing more deals and building lasting relationships in the B2B space. Perfect for sales leaders, account managers, and anyone aiming to master the art of B2B selling.
Future Of Selling (00:03.136)
All right. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the Future of Selling podcast this week. We certainly appreciate you being here. You know, in this podcast, we really dive into trends, challenges, innovations, things that are shaping the sales landscape. I'm your host. My name is Rick Smith. I'm the Chief Customer Officer at Conquer. Conquer is a sales communications platform that lives directly inside of Salesforce. We work with some of the largest enterprise companies in the world.
I've been in around sales much of my career, a lot of time in client success. I'm also serving as a chief operating officer, CEO, CRO, and now chief customer officer here at Conquer. But enough about me, let me introduce our guest today. So our guest is the wonderful, the great, the awesome Brian Clutus. So Brian has done a number of things over his career and from working in the motion picture industry.
Brian Kludas (00:39.854)
Thank you.
Future Of Selling (01:00.142)
And believe me, there's a lot of really good stories from that. don't know if we'll get into any of those today, but we might. You never know what might come up, right? But there are some great stories there. But, you know, he did a lot of time there, but then at some point transitioned into the sales world, right? And spent a lot of time in sales itself and kind of carrying a bag, right? But also spent a great deal of time in sales enablement. The largest portion of Brian's career, or as far as, you know, that I've known him, it was spent at Axiom Salesforce Development. Now,
Brian Kludas (01:00.25)
So.
And.
Future Of Selling (01:29.998)
now renamed Axiom Sales Kinetics, right? And so Brian started there about, I think over 12 years ago as a trainer and then a VP of Customer Success, VP of Operations kind of took that piece over and that's where we met, right? And so we worked together for a long time and I believe we forged a pretty good partnership and really a great friendship over the years. You've been here now at Conquer.
Brian Kludas (01:45.358)
Thanks, Rick. This is really fun. Thank you for that intro.
Future Of Selling (01:56.034)
for about six months, made an incredible impact on the company and our clients as well. So Brian, welcome to the podcast, man.
Brian Kludas (02:10.636)
Wow, it makes me sound like I've got more experience than I feel like I do sometimes, but thank you so much. And I agree, you and I over the years, and I love the fact of what we're gonna get into in our topic today, because it's such a perfect one for you and I and the relationship that we've forged over the years. So thanks for having me.
Future Of Selling (02:15.537)
sorry.
Future Of Selling (02:26.744)
Yeah, I agree. Well, it's good to get you on. I know we've been talking about doing this for a couple of months. And that topic that we're going to talk about today, we kicked around a couple of things. We really wanted to get into mentorship and just the power, the impact of mentorship and how that relates to the sales industry. But I'm sure we'll stray away from that a little bit, but that's the main focus. But before we get started,
I always like to kind of throw in a couple of fun facts about our guests, right? Just because it's one thing to know about your background, your professional background, that's all cool and everything. I just have this sense that people want to know more. Like tell me about Brian as human. So I pulled out a couple of because I know you pretty well. I've known you for a while. So is it okay if I start with a couple of fun facts?
Brian Kludas (02:54.574)
Let's do it. I'm really curious. I'm real curious.
Future Of Selling (03:16.046)
All right. Fun fact number one, the one I'm probably the most envious of is that you, tell me if I get this wrong, right? When you were 16 years old, you spent, I believe it was a full summer backpacking across Europe. Is that right? Did I get the numbers right and all that kind of stuff? So, okay.
Brian Kludas (03:33.101)
Yeah.
Yeah, it was right around that age and it was by myself. I didn't go with anybody else. It was just me. Incredible experience. mean, living on your own at 16 in a foreign country. I don't know that I would let my 17 year old do that today. I don't know what my parents were thinking.
Future Of Selling (03:44.398)
Yeah
Future Of Selling (03:50.382)
Yeah, I'm not going to question it, but I just know that I would have loved to have done that. So anyway, fun fact number one, you are a world traveler and that's really cool. You are also, and we share this kind of passion, this love together, right? But you're also a follower and I'd say even a practitioner, if I can say that, of Stoic philosophy. We talk about this quite a bit.
Brian Kludas (04:14.861)
Mm.
Future Of Selling (04:15.438)
I think that's really interesting. have a common favorite author and we kick around. of you even sent me a really cool coin the other day, or it had a couple of months ago, I guess. But anyway, you're a big stoic philosopher guy. cool fun fact there. Your wife has one of the coolest names ever. I mean, don't know what name you could have that would be more fun than that, but it's good.
Brian Kludas (04:36.504)
Ha
Brian Kludas (04:43.95)
well, when I tell you her maiden name, that's when it gets really fun. So it's Fantasia Darling.
Future Of Selling (04:51.106)
Wow, how about that?
Brian Kludas (04:52.682)
Right? And then for some reason, she liked me well enough to take my name, which sounds like you've got a really bad cold and you're something up. So she goes from being a Disney princess in movie to still being amazing, but just sounding like she has a cold when she says her last name. So.
Future Of Selling (05:02.04)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (05:05.571)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (05:10.062)
Yeah, it's all good. Let's go with the first name. First name is awesome. It's great. So normally I only give three, but I had a fourth one here for you just because you know who you are. recently you were named the most likely to overwhelm another person with your energy. that's great. Is that a well earned award or what do you think?
Brian Kludas (05:35.438)
I think so. feel like if you don't come into situations you're in with energy and enthusiasm for what you're about to do, I don't know that you really thought through why you're doing it. Right? So to me, I like to go to bed at the end of the day with that tank exhausted. Nothing left in it.
Future Of Selling (05:48.088)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (05:54.808)
Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. Got it. Well, and honestly, if you think about it, especially what we're talking about today, right? We're talking about mentorship. I think that's probably going to get into coaching. I think we, you and I talk a lot about leadership as well, but, but just that, yeah. And, know, the context of that award, we were all kind of kidding around and having a good time with it. Right. But, it's true. And that really is one of your gifts that you bring to the party. Right. When I watch you, that's one of the things I think about is how do I show up in meetings? Because you've got this.
Brian Kludas (06:03.608)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (06:13.792)
Thank
Future Of Selling (06:24.162)
tremendous energy, this tremendous enthusiasm and positive attitude. anyway, that's a fun fact, but that's also just, I know what else you'd call it, a cool fact about you and how you approach your work. So.
Brian Kludas (06:28.361)
Mm.
Well, thank you. Thank you. I want to take that back though, real quick to the stoic philosophy piece that you brought up only because I believe those two things go really well hand in hand. and getting into the mentorship piece of that as well, right? Is that realization of what we can control and what we can't, what we can influence and what we cannot influence, right? And I think that's, it's brought me to this place where why not take on every situation with joy,
Future Of Selling (06:46.764)
Okay.
Brian Kludas (07:06.656)
energy and enthusiasm rather than the opposite, right? Because we have a choice in how we do that. so, but as we continue this conversation, I'll talk a little bit more about why that philosophy matters and why it matters between us as well, because you are huge influence on that part of my life.
Future Of Selling (07:23.118)
Okay, cool, cool. Well, thank you for that for one. But yeah, I definitely want to get into that with you. So, well, as we think about mentorship, probably no better place to start than kind of your personal journey. And I thought maybe the first question would be, how do you define, how do you personally define mentorship? mean, you hear the word a lot, but what is that? How would you define that from just your perspective?
Brian Kludas (07:42.382)
Hmm.
Brian Kludas (07:47.928)
You know, it's, that's interesting because there's different roles that you get to play that we've talked about in leadership, right? You could be a leader, you could be a manager, you could be a coach and you could be a mentor. To me, a mentor is somebody because a coach is going to help you with this short-term goal that you have based on specific criteria, right? The mentor in my mind though, it's not just the task that's in front of you.
they are helping you in your life journey and providing guidance and sometimes giving you some guide rails to live within so that you can experience things the way that you need to in certain situations. So I would say it's somebody who is personally invested in your development as a human being. And I think that's really the key to it is that, and they're not looking to get anything out of it. It's not a personal thing. But the amazing part is, is that as you're a mentor,
the I guess the payback is tremendous. You learn so much from working. So I'd say that's a key definition would be somebody who's really involved and bought into what you're trying to achieve and wants to be with you along that journey to help you. I think that's that's a key.
Future Of Selling (08:59.638)
Okay. Okay. Gotcha. And, and also my follow up question, which I think you've already answered and I've never heard it, heard it stated that way. And I think that's great that the difference between mentorship and coaching is it from, your perspective, coaching is more target directed, more short-term, whereas mentorship and it's probably, you know, I want to hit my sales number. I want to be better at discovery. I want to be a better client success, whatever that might be.
Brian Kludas (09:17.77)
Mm-hmm.
Future Of Selling (09:26.958)
But when you think about mentorship, it's really about how do I be a better human, right? The entire experience, not just focused on one area of professionalism or whatever it might be. So, gotcha, that's a good way to think about it. Are you currently a mentor for anybody? Do you feel like you're mentoring anyone? And if that is the case, what kind of inspires you to do that? What makes that meaningful to you and puts you on that track?
Brian Kludas (09:32.255)
Right.
Brian Kludas (09:51.918)
You know, there's a you and I talked about this before and I really stole this from more of a an exercise. It was from a boxing example, but it's it's focusing in on the three where personally, if you want to develop, you want to have somebody who is mentoring you, somebody who's above you, who's teaching you you're learning from.
Right, you need that person in your life that you look up to and they're going to give you things that you can personally, professionally, emotionally work on. You want somebody who's at the same level as you, so you can challenge each other with these new ideas, these new things that you've just learned. And then of course you want somebody that you're passing this knowledge along to, and that's where you become the mentor to that next level, so that you can help lift somebody else up. And so for me, the motivation to mentor comes from being mentored.
It is a, it's a desire to take the things that I'm learning and, help others. Uh, currently I'd say I have a couple of people that I'm fostering some mentorship relationship with that we started off with some real easy coaching around things, but it's growing into a broader, um, plan on how they develop into certain things, how they manage certain aspects of their personal life, right. As well as their professional.
Future Of Selling (10:56.846)
progress.
Future Of Selling (11:10.828)
Right. Right.
Brian Kludas (11:12.736)
And so there's a couple of people today, but the motivation really comes from, it's a pay it forward, pay it back type of thing. If somebody has really taken the time and interest, and putting in the effort to help mentor me, then I have an obligation. I feel like I really have an obligation to others to try to help as well. you know, there's that, going to our Stoke philosophy, Marcus Aurelius said we're made for each other. So either teach or tolerate.
Right? And I love that idea. And so it really is this, I have something that I can help teach and grow somebody with this information. And it's really fulfilling to do, but I think it's even more exciting to see people achieve their own success through it.
Future Of Selling (12:01.25)
Yeah, gotcha, gotcha. So for yourself personally, how has mentorship made a difference in your life or your career? What role has it played for you?
Brian Kludas (12:04.747)
Thank
Brian Kludas (12:14.494)
you know, I spent some time this summer thinking about this. I'd listened to something in a book and it got me down the path of thinking about mentors that I had had in my life. and so I started writing down all these folks that I believed had been mentors and some of the qualities and interactions that I had had with them to really determine were they mentors or were they coaches or were they managers or were they leaders? Right. Because.
I think people can play all of those roles in a certain instance, and you certainly have with me in each one of those. But as I looked at it, I had people that were great leaders to me, but they weren't necessarily mentors. They helped me get from A to B really successfully, but they were going to do that, whether it was me or anybody else. I've had really good managers that have helped clear the field and get things done for me. Right. And that there's the administrative side that I've had amazing coaches throughout the years as well.
Future Of Selling (12:58.157)
Right.
Brian Kludas (13:11.746)
But for me, the greatest mentors, and I've had really just a handful that have been actively involved. One is the founder of the company that you and I previously worked with. He has been an incredible personal mentor of mine. I've got a couple of people from way back in my history, previous careers that I work with. the biggest influence today is really when I sat down and looked at that list, Rick, it's why I called you.
because you floated up to the top of that list in what I would say an active but not actively engaged mentorship, which means we weren't talking every week. We hadn't talked for maybe six months at that point. But inside of that six months before I called you up, you had sent me a book. And this is the difference to me between somebody who's being a coach and somebody who's being a mentor. Because when you get a book from a coach, they're saying, hey, I read this book. I really liked it.
think you might, right? That's a good recommendation. But that's not what you did. And that's not what a good mentor does. What a mentor does is they see something. And it's not just that I find it interesting, I think you would. It's knowing you, understanding what you're trying to achieve in your life. I believe this is going to be helpful for what you want to accomplish. Right? And so you sent me one of those. And it was, it was out of nowhere. A box shows up.
from Amazon, which is not uncommon at our house, but it was a book I hadn't ordered with a note from you. And that to me is the meaningful element of coaching because when I think about a mentor, it's somebody who's bought into and wants to see me develop and succeed with or without them by my side. And so the fact we hadn't talked in months, but you had that mindset, it puts you directly into that category of mentoring and focused in on it, even though we don't talk often.
we do now, but we haven't been. The influence on it was huge. But I think that that goes into, I didn't realize that you were mentoring me when we were first working together until I didn't have it. And that was, think, one of my bigger realizations, Rick, is what mentorship really was, was I had you mentoring me in our previous roles. And I didn't know until we weren't working together anymore.
Future Of Selling (15:05.111)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Kludas (15:32.842)
what that was and I started to miss it so much that it got me to start focusing in on what does this really mean to mentor and help other people as well. Because again, I didn't realize you were doing it, but there you were helping me with so many different things in my life, which was really incredible. so just having this topic today is amazing, but getting to share the impact that you've had as a mentor to me through this conversation is
a great opportunity right now because you really have. And that to me is what mentorship should be.
Future Of Selling (16:06.53)
Well, first off, I just want to say just thank you, right, for the kind words. I deeply appreciate it, right? It means a ton. So thank you so much. And then thinking about your comments, right? So it strikes me that mentorship can be formal or be informal, right? Formal in that, I want you to mentor me, right? And you're right. It kind of gets on this rhythm of, well, let's talk once a week, once every other week, know, whatever it is.
Brian Kludas (16:26.06)
I mean, yes.
Future Of Selling (16:35.982)
But there's also the informal mentoring that you're doing. that's kind of the, I don't know which one's more powerful, maybe both is powerful just in their own way. But there is something about watching the way people live their life. And I've got a couple of people that I watch them, right? I just watch the way they make decisions. I watch the way they conduct their business, you know?
Brian Kludas (16:45.561)
.
Future Of Selling (17:01.422)
One of the things that I've watched you do, right, is you're an avid giver. And I like that, right? You give things to people. that is, so it means a lot. So anyway, so two different styles of mentoring there, right? One just it's constant, but one is just, you know, what influence are you having on people? And maybe you don't even know it, but all the more reason to conduct your business, conduct your life in a way that you feel good about.
Brian Kludas (17:07.438)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (17:29.484)
right, that you can stand behind, you know, so that's cool. Yeah.
Brian Kludas (17:30.408)
Yeah. Absolutely. It really is. that's the fun part, right? Because you can go, and I recommend, if somebody is listening to this and you don't have a mentor right now, think about some of the qualities that you want to start to possess in your personal and professional life and look at the people around you. And who has those things? Who's achieved those things? And go to them and say, I'd like to learn from you.
helped me understand your journey, what you went through, maybe so I don't make those same mistakes, but that's a real active role. But to your point, the inactive part is so exciting because you don't know the influence you're having on people. You had no idea the influence that book had when you sent it to me. And I don't think that you had any idea when you told me to get the first book on stoicism that I got. And it was going to have such a significant impact on my entire life.
Future Of Selling (18:09.198)
Yeah. Yeah.
Future Of Selling (18:17.355)
right? I did not. Yeah, I did not. You're right.
Brian Kludas (18:26.092)
because it changed my entire worldview and mindset on things. And it made mentorship not just something that was going to happen, but something really imperative and critical to me as a human being and the people I wanted to interact with. Right. Because all we have is this short period of time in our lives where we can help others. Right. And so it's how much can we really do?
Future Of Selling (18:48.994)
Yeah, yeah, agree.
Brian Kludas (18:55.086)
to help others and help others see things that maybe they're mistakes that we've made and they avoid them. But yeah, I know you sent me on that journey. That's why this is a really fun topic again. You didn't know, you had no idea that you were gonna have that level of influence on things.
Future Of Selling (19:07.694)
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, no, thank you. That's incredible. So think about this. Think about the, so the concepts we've talked about so far, the mentorship, the coaching, even the leadership aspect, though I think that's probably less about today. It's more about mentorship. And think about, pull us back into the sales world, right? What challenges live and exist in the sales motion, the sales, you
Brian Kludas (19:20.098)
Mm-hmm.
Future Of Selling (19:37.662)
sales teams, things like that where mentorship might be able to be applied and really make a difference. What are your thoughts around that?
Brian Kludas (19:43.534)
Absolutely. think it's helping managers. Oftentimes they're just focused on the administration of the job. So there's not a lot else that really goes into that. so trying to get leaders to coach is really a first challenge because they've got to know in their role what good looks like and how to bridge the gap between what the person's doing and what that definition of good is.
And so coaching just inherently becomes a challenge in that regard. And you've talked a lot about it. Time is a big issue when it comes to it as well. Right. So in the selling world, coaching is the most critical element to success. And I can't say, I mean, it really is the ability to see what your folks are doing to engage with them becomes so impactful to their success. But there's a layer above the coaching.
Right. That I believe that there's an obligation as a leader who really is dedicated to their people is that you've got to get above the task. And that's what I mean. You've got to sit down with your folks and talk about bigger goals than just the target that they're going to achieve. But what is the target achievement mean to them? And how do we then mentor them through those processes to get there? Right. It's not just a, Hey, I'm going to help you close this deal and learn a couple of tricks along the way.
but you have a goal to achieve something in the next 12 to 18 months. There's a lot of things that need to happen in order for you to get there. Your mentor is your guide through that process to get to that point. And so I think that's where leaders can take that more active role in a longer term as we go back to that earlier definition. A coach is focused in on what's this near term thing we've got to do, right? Every coach after a football win or loss that you see in the NFL, they're like, yep, that's great. Focused on the next one.
Right. We're focused on the next game focused on the next game. And so I think it's that. That same idea with, with, with coaching and developing your team. It's, focusing in on how do we grow them, right? Not just coach them in the near term, but how do I get them further? Right.
Future Of Selling (21:57.676)
Right. So it's kind of taken the bigger picture point of view with someone. And as you talk about that, I think about the book I've read not long ago and talked about the five levels of leadership, right? The first level of leadership being position. You're the VP of client services. So because I work for you, I have to do what you say. All right. Well, that's fine. Right. And it's going to last a while. But that's just the first level. it doesn't have, you know, it's not really powerful.
Brian Kludas (22:03.224)
Yeah!
Brian Kludas (22:11.458)
Mm.
Future Of Selling (22:27.224)
But then the next level is building the relationship. That's the second level of leadership, right? And that's kind of where, and it's probably where the difference, because if you skip over that level, the relationship level and go straight from position to performance, which is kind of the third level of leadership, can you get your team to perform? Then you really, maybe you are just a coach and you're not that mentor. But if you really want to have a bigger impact on it, and that's what I think about, right? I think about, yeah, I want to turn in good numbers.
Brian Kludas (22:42.806)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (22:48.291)
Mm-hmm.
Future Of Selling (22:56.376)
know, net retention, gross retention, expansions, you know, all that, those are all important. But, but if, we hit those targets and leave our team behind in five years from now, made no difference. Then I kind of don't know what it was all for. Right. So I think when, you're talking about the difference between mentorship and coaching again, it's the bigger point, it's the bigger, broader point of view. because the stronger my relationship is with you, the more.
Brian Kludas (23:09.454)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (23:15.054)
I think.
Future Of Selling (23:25.23)
the more you're willing to accept my coaching toward whatever those performance outcomes might be. Is that kind of a decent way to say it? Okay.
Brian Kludas (23:33.352)
Yeah, absolutely. No, yeah, absolutely. I think the only addition I put in there is that, you know, as you're coaching that person and as they're working through, the difference comes down to I'm coaching you in your position to do better at your role. I'm mentoring you to become the best person that you possibly can be. Right. And so coaching is great because it's you need it. It has to be there.
Future Of Selling (23:51.736)
Got it. Yeah.
Brian Kludas (23:57.442)
but it is specific to a role or task or some project, something that's happening. But that mentor is trying to help you be the best human, not the best VP of client success or SDR or sales manager, right? They're helping beyond that. And so that's where having broader conversations and taking this back into the sales world, you got to know your team outside of a target. You need to know your team outside of a metric.
There needs to be some engagement in what it is that you're doing to help them over the long term. And I think the biggest challenge is it goes back to that time element of it. And so when I think about what you can do, like there's so many tools and resources, like we talk about AI and using it as much as possible to streamline to make more time. That's it. I just want my, I want one, our clients.
to speak to, I want them to have more time to be able to coach and develop their people because information is easier to access and do. I want our internal client success team to be more active with our customers because information is easy for them to get to, right? So that they can flourish and they can grow. And so the more we can make that time element, right? Not so contracted during the day. And we actually provide ways to become more productive and efficient. Then we open the door to
not just effective coaching, but the opportunity for people to identify where mentorship can really have an impact and drive into that. I think that that's the key. But time is the issue, right? It's a big factor.
Future Of Selling (25:30.028)
Okay.
Future Of Selling (25:34.904)
Yeah, yeah, got it, got it. Okay. What do you think then are, what would you say are some of the key characteristics that are essential to be a successful mentor and kind of that mentor mentee relationship? What do you, what's key? What do I gotta be focused on if I wanna be a mentor for somebody?
Brian Kludas (25:50.285)
Mm.
Brian Kludas (25:54.936)
Thank
It's not about you. think that's the number one thing. If you're going to mentor, it's not about you. It isn't. You're there for the other person. They came to you, but it's not about you. It's about them. And I say that that's important. So it's not wholly focused just on your experience. I'd say beyond that, it's the ability to listen, just to hear the person and where they are and not make assumptions as to the placement.
of where they are in their personal or professional life at any point, but to really listen in and zero in on the things that you can help out with. So I guess to sum it up into a real easy thing, you know, get rid of your ego. Right? It's a boost. Somebody came to you. They want you to be your mentor. That is a fulfilling, right? You're going to get dopamine hits. You're going to get excited. Things are going to go on. You're going to feel really good about yourself because of it. But after that moment passes,
Future Of Selling (26:39.948)
Okay.
Future Of Selling (26:48.543)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (26:56.054)
get over yourself because it's not about you. This person came here because they need help. Right. And I would say that the biggest thing is anybody who comes to you be open to that idea that the hardest thing that people could do is ask for help. And so if somebody is coming to you and saying, I would like for you to be my mentor, don't take that request for granted. Don't brush it aside. Right. If you don't think that you're prepared to be a mentor.
Future Of Selling (26:58.627)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Brian Kludas (27:21.518)
Put some thought into your answer before you give it back, because asking for that help was hard for that person to do. And they obviously see something in you that you might not. And so if somebody is asking for you to be a mentor, there's not a structure you need to follow necessarily. You need to just get out of your own way. It's not about you. Listen to them. Hear what they're trying to achieve. And provide the best guidance you can.
Future Of Selling (27:27.15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Future Of Selling (27:47.554)
Yeah, got it, got it. Okay. Are you able to provide, give us maybe an example of a time where you served as a mentor, especially if it's someone in the sales or even client success kind of industry, but a time that you served as a mentor that was particularly made an impact on that person and maybe that was particularly rewarding for you as well.
Brian Kludas (28:11.475)
Yeah, I've had the fortune of working with a lot of sales leaders over the years in the previous roles that I've had, primarily as a coach. I've done a ton of coaching. so transcending the coach and getting into the mentorship, it has happened a couple of times. One of the sales leaders of a client that we were with, we had gotten to the end of their certification. They finished doing everything they needed to do and they were doing great at it, but they came to me a couple of weeks after they completed and said, I don't feel like I'm done.
And I said, I'm not sure what you mean. They said, I'm not done becoming a great leader yet. I'm not done becoming a great coach yet. I got this certificate. went through your program, but I don't feel like I'm finished. So can you help me? And first, my response was, well, you never finish. So you're never going to, but the other part was absolutely. And we started working together even more to develop that. And I've seen this person flourish into other roles to develop into a leadership position.
Future Of Selling (28:49.272)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (29:11.096)
to go from an individual contributor that they were, the manager that I had worked with and certified them, and then into a director role that they're working through as well. And that's had, it's been tremendous to see. But that's been a really fortunate element through there. I've also, outside of the professional piece, there's been mentorships with some coaches in soccer and just youth athletics that I've done.
Future Of Selling (29:23.586)
Yes.
Future Of Selling (29:35.214)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (29:35.754)
mentoring some younger coaches to help them develop the skills to work with these kids and really get the most out of the kids they can. So that's the one with the sales leader though, I think was really the most professionally gratifying because I knew what they were doing. I knew the role, the world that they were in. And so there was an immediate easy connection to work with. yeah, seeing them evolve from a coach into a mentor and then mentoring themselves was
Future Of Selling (29:57.208)
Yeah, got it.
Future Of Selling (30:03.683)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (30:04.278)
incredible. Now they have mentees that they're working with.
Future Of Selling (30:06.798)
So I wonder how you'd, so coaching's important, mentoring's important. If I think about it kind of in a pyramid style, looks like you gotta be a great coach and then you can become a great mentor. I think that's kind of your point of view on it. I would agree with you. So how do you take something like that and scale it across an organization? How do you incorporate
Brian Kludas (30:18.19)
Mm.
Future Of Selling (30:35.031)
the mentorship within an organization. What do you think about that?
Brian Kludas (30:42.096)
Well, think first organizationally, there needs to be a focus, not just in words, but actually in practice around people. And that it is important that we develop and coach them. So if the culture is there, I think that has to exist first in any organization. It's a lot easier to scale at that point because you can start to develop
consistency and engagements, right? Because active mentorship is about constant engagement, right? It's just like any element in the sales process, you need to be constantly engaged with your customers. Same thing as a mentor, you need to constantly engage and work with them. And so to scale it, it means evolving. Going from coaching being metrics-based to coaching being behavior-based to then elevating above behavior-based coaching into
long-term goal achievement for these folks on your team and helping guide them in different ways. And it's not just going back to, you didn't achieve this metric. Let me help you with this piece. It's broader than that. You're in an individual contributor role and you want to be a leader? Well, let's take you on a path that allows you to take risks, right? To take risks in leadership, to take little risks here, but guided risks.
Future Of Selling (31:45.656)
Right. Okay.
Brian Kludas (32:00.898)
where you have a safety net from your mentor to help you. And that I think starts to scale it, it has to, organization has to care. You know, they can't just be lip service when they say things and like Richard Branson, I think said it best that you want to create, you want to train your people well enough, right? That they can leave and go anywhere else, but you want to treat them well enough so that they stay.
Future Of Selling (32:27.736)
Yes.
Brian Kludas (32:28.11)
And so I think when you have that combination of things where you really focus in on professional personal development, you get people to the point where they could go anywhere and succeed, but they want to stay there because the mentorship they're getting, the development that they're getting.
Future Of Selling (32:41.39)
Yeah, that's really powerful way to look at it. So if I kind of think about your answer to that question, which was really how do you scale mentorship and or how do you create a culture even where mentorship is highly valued? And it's just a part of what we do. First, it starts with relationships with valuing people, right? It's not just and you mentioned this a minute ago. It's not just about the numbers, right?
Brian Kludas (32:55.959)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (33:05.184)
Mm-hmm.
Future Of Selling (33:09.454)
but it's about the people because people create numbers, right? mean, a lot of things, guess, contributed that, but ultimately people do. If you've got a big client and you retain them and you expand them, there are a lot of things that went right. But one of the things that went right was the personal connection. So people are big. And then I think he said that the path was first to focus on outcomes, but then also to focus next on behavior. And then I think there was a third one.
Brian Kludas (33:12.622)
Mm-hmm. Okay.
Right.
Brian Kludas (33:24.554)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (33:32.878)
Right. And then you can start to look at the longer term pieces of that's when that that's that's the transition, right? When you start to transcend coaching and get into mentoring, right? It's that higher elevated view of things, right?
Future Of Selling (33:38.988)
or at least I think there was and I didn't write it down. So focus on outcomes, behaviors, and then.
Future Of Selling (33:56.782)
Okay, okay, gotcha.
Brian Kludas (33:58.412)
And it's really, guess it's more of the evolution of the, you're talking different levels of leaders, right? And when I think about it, you've got a leader, a leader just in that role. They're going to take you from point A to B. They're going to help you get somewhere. The manager does the task. They're taking care of the, did you hit your metric? Right? Did you do this piece of it? That's it. That's all they're looking at. And you're going to either know, or you didn't, it's a stack ranking. Did I do a good job last week or did I not? That's the manager.
Future Of Selling (34:16.739)
Yes.
Future Of Selling (34:25.976)
Right. Yeah.
Brian Kludas (34:27.042)
The coach is going to look at that metric and go, you didn't do a good job, but here's how you can do a good job. The mentor transcends all of that and says, these pieces are important. We need to focus in on them. But you're on a trajectory to get to here in your life and your career. Let's focus in on the elements that help you do that as well.
Future Of Selling (34:44.718)
Yeah, got it, got it. Okay, good. So what do you think about some just common mistakes or kind of missteps that people make as far as being a mentor or even being a coach, right? I mean, what are some things that, know, somebody's listening and they're like, man, it really sounds good. I mean, we'll talk in a minute about maybe what it takes. And we've talked about that some already, but what are the missteps and mistakes that you see commonly that people make?
Brian Kludas (35:07.086)
I think going back to that first rule, is don't make it about yourself, make it about the other person. They're coming to you to understand your experience and how it relates to them not to hear your story necessarily. So make it really relevant to them. Otherwise, the big mistake is we make it all about us as the mentor rather than it being about the mentee.
Future Of Selling (35:26.03)
Okay.
Future Of Selling (35:33.388)
Right? Yeah.
Brian Kludas (35:36.578)
And then being actively engaged and making sure that you're checking in and ensuring that you're asking that this is helpful. Right. You can't just assume that you're giving good advice and that you're providing good guidance, but you also need to check on yourself too. And I think one of the mistakes that people make is that they just assume I've provided this guidance and advice to you for the situation that you're in. And of course it's going to work because I gave that advice to you, but sometimes it doesn't. And we need to be open as mentors to learn from.
Future Of Selling (35:49.422)
Okay.
Brian Kludas (36:04.308)
mistakes that we make too. I think having too much focus on yourself is one, right? That's a big key thing. Not really listening to the person and focusing on your story instead of theirs and not staying engaged actively. think there's making sure that you have and you stay as active as you need to. You think like a personal trainer, right? When you first get started, they're there next to you all the time, but once you get going,
Future Of Selling (36:20.312)
Yeah. Okay.
Future Of Selling (36:26.766)
Okay, go.
Brian Kludas (36:33.44)
Maybe it's once a month just to make sure that, you really are staying on track with everything.
Future Of Selling (36:38.104)
Yeah, gotcha. three, one mistake, you're just not present enough. You're just not around enough, is huge. And that's a big leadership mistake as well, obviously. Too much focus on you. then finally, sometimes it's probably a good practice to check in. Did the advice I gave you work? Was it helpful or not? And if it was, great. Tell me why. If it's not.
Please tell me why. Because know, mentors aren't perfect either, right? They're just people, just like all of us are. So, okay.
Brian Kludas (37:03.886)
Right.
No!
Yeah, yeah. And if we go to that, those three levels, right, if so you're in the middle, you're always in the middle, right? You've got a mentor that's here, somebody that's here and somebody that you're mentoring. So you're always in a position where you have to be learning to be an effective mentor. You've got to constantly challenge yourself. Otherwise, this person is only looking at you from a point in time perspective, not the entirety of your your accomplishments and who you are.
Future Of Selling (37:38.862)
I'm so glad you said that. I'm so glad you hit that point that because we didn't we didn't hit anywhere else. Right. But if you want to be an effective mentor, you've got to keep growing. You've got to you've got you've got to continue on your own process of becoming if you want to be able to help other other people. know, and so for me personally, I hope I'm not the same Rick I was when we met each other in 2017 18. I hope there's been growth since then, you know, but that's just such an important
Brian Kludas (37:49.955)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (38:03.856)
Bright. Yes.
Future Of Selling (38:08.846)
piece of it that if you want to be a great mentor, if you want to have a great influence on people, continue to grow, continue to change, continue to evolve. And then last week on one of the podcasts, we were talking about this idea that comes from the Speed of Trust book, one of the Covey books. it was like, you've got to have two things. You've got to have competency, right? But there also has to be a level of
Brian Kludas (38:31.986)
Mm-hmm.
Future Of Selling (38:37.706)
not just competency, but I got to be a good person as well, right? There's got to be character there. Those are the two things you got to balance. So, okay.
Brian Kludas (38:39.374)
Right. Yep. Absolutely. And the learning piece couldn't be more important. And you know me, I've got tons of quotes in my brain, but one of the ones that sticks out to me is Mark Twain, right? Mark Twain said this really well. Not all readers are leaders, but all leaders are readers. Right? So.
Future Of Selling (38:54.051)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (38:59.726)
at, hey man, I agree with you completely.
Brian Kludas (39:04.162)
So I think it's, I think it's a, if you want to grow personally, you have to get inside the mind of somebody else. And I think that that's what's helpful as a mentor or mentee. If you're in that middle portion of those three levels, you have to consume and get inside some that's I learned about books. You're getting inside somebody else's brain. You're seeing their thought process. It's the closest thing you can get. I can't hang out with Aristotle. I can't, but man, I can read his writings that I can get into his way of thinking.
Future Of Selling (39:29.421)
Right.
Future Of Selling (39:33.794)
Yes.
Brian Kludas (39:33.826)
Same with Ryan Holiday or Marcus Aurelius or anybody else. I can't have a conversation with them. But I can get inside their head through their writings.
Future Of Selling (39:37.56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Future Of Selling (39:43.15)
So if I want to be, so I know we're just at about time, we've been going for almost 40 minutes now. So let's wrap up. Let's think about three key takeaways. I always like to give the key takeaways to the audience, right? So I am an individual who I want to, and let's just say I'm an individual who I want to become a great mentor for people, right? So if they want to become a mentor for,
for people they work with or people that are around. What do we think are the three big takeaways? What are they right now from today's conversation?
Brian Kludas (40:12.746)
So.
Well, I think if somebody wants to get into that world of mentorship, then the desire to help has to be present in empathy and understanding, right? It's not just I woke up today and decided I want to be a mentor. It's the question of why as well, right?
Future Of Selling (40:41.358)
Okay, yeah.
Brian Kludas (40:42.22)
And I think it goes into that learning piece of it. To me, if you want to be a mentor, has to be not just because I can give to somebody else, but also because I can learn and then help others with what I've learned from this person. yeah, think it's hard to nail down three things here. Yeah.
Future Of Selling (40:59.077)
Let me help them, let me help. because this would hurt. one, you got to, I agree with you. You've got to have a solid, honest, high integrity reason. You've got to want to help, right? It's got to be, I want to help. I want to make a difference in the lives of others. It's not about just trying to stand out or be cool or get recognized. It's about, I want to really help other people, right? I think that's probably number one.
Brian Kludas (41:10.474)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Future Of Selling (41:26.498)
If you're going to do that, then you've got to continue to be a learner. We just talked about that, right? If I'm going to be able to give, I've got to be full, right? And especially I think about this from just the sales industry perspective. If I want to be a great sales leader, or even if I'm an individual contributor, I don't want to be a mentor to those around me. In other words, let my influence flow, right? Impact those around me.
Brian Kludas (41:31.257)
yeah, very true.
Brian Kludas (41:52.73)
Yeah.
Future Of Selling (41:55.532)
I've got to be a good learner and I've got to continue to have things to influence others' ways. So think that's probably number two. And then if there's a third one, what's a good third one? What's a good third takeaway today?
Brian Kludas (42:15.035)
You also want and have a desire to be a mentee. To be mentored.
Future Of Selling (42:18.678)
Okay. Okay. Put yourself in the place to be mentored. I like that. Okay. Okay.
Brian Kludas (42:24.236)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I because I really do believe you need to exist in those different areas you need as a mentor. You should also be a mentee. Right.
Future Of Selling (42:34.668)
Yeah. So, so if I'm a sales leader or if I'm an individual, a county executive, an SDR, whatever, client success manager, whatever, you know, it's all, all wrapped up in sales. Then if I, then I need to, I need to put myself in the place of being a mentee. Right. So I've got to, I have to strike a position of learning. I got to be able to do that. Okay. Got it.
Brian Kludas (42:40.558)
Mm-hmm.
Brian Kludas (42:52.824)
Yeah.
Brian Kludas (42:57.006)
Mm hmm. Yeah. I have to be willing to be uncomfortable as well being in that position, right? Because it's comfortable to be the mentor. It can be uncomfortable to be the mentee, right? So. Right.
Future Of Selling (43:02.21)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brian Kludas (43:15.054)
Right, right. And so I think it's in, and I would just say the three words that any mentor needs to be able to really live by and say with absolute truth is, I don't Right? You can't also have all the answers because you don't have all the answers. You still need to develop yourself. So being willing to be vulnerable as a mentor, I think is also really important because it demonstrates the types of qualities hopefully your mentee is trying to gain as well.
Um, but yeah, I think you got it and you really have to be both Rick. And that's where, you know, you've been a great mentor to me, which has driven me to want to mentor and work with other people and help pass that along to be in both of those positions, right? Where I have somebody who's really hyper focused on helping me. And I have the ability to focus on others.
Future Of Selling (44:04.046)
Yeah, got it, got it. Well, cool. Well, thank you, sir, for the kind words, by the way. I truly appreciate it. Also, just thank you for the time today that you spent with us. we're busy and you got a lot. I've looked at your schedule and you got a lot of things going on, but great conversation today. And again, thanks for being a part of it. So talk to you soon.
Brian Kludas (44:14.156)
Yeah.
True.
Brian Kludas (44:24.894)
Absolutely. This was great. Thanks, Rick.
Future Of Selling (44:26.734)
All right, thanks, man.