Matt Abrahams: What if you could get a low cost, effective
way for making your points, clear, concise, and engaging.
That's what we're going to talk about today.
My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach strategic
communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business.
Welcome to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
Today, I'm really excited to interview Matt Dicks.
Matt is a bestselling novelist, elementary school teacher and storytelling coach.
Matt wrote the book Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade,
and Change Your Life Through the Power of Storytelling.
Matt, thanks for being here.
I'm super excited for our conversation.
Matthew Dicks: I am thrilled as well.
Matt Abrahams: Should we get started?
Matthew Dicks: Yeah, let's get going.
Matt Abrahams: All right.
You've mastered the art of storytelling in various formats.
To help us get started, can you share how great storytelling can
enhance everyday communication, particularly in a business environment?
Matthew Dicks: Sure.
You know, I think that most of the business communication that I encounter
in the world tends to be what I say, round, white, and flavorless.
Meaning it's ultimately forgettable and almost immediately forgettable.
But when we tell a story about a product, a service, the people we work with,
you know, our company, what happens is we become memorable and interesting
and entertaining in a way that doesn't happen very often in business.
And so if we look at companies or we look at people in business, the ones
who tell stories are the ones we remember, the ones who gain our attention.
And those are the people who are going to sort of reach their goals.
So I think when it comes to storytelling, the great thing about it is because so few people
really engage in it in a meaningful way, you can almost do just a little bit of storytelling
and really make a mark in business, because so often it is done poorly or not at all.
So it's a no brainer for me.
And it's also beautiful in that it doesn't cost you a penny.
You know, other than maybe hiring the consultant, you don't have to build a building.
You don't have to buy a program.
You know, you don't need to buy a machine, it's just leveling up what your people can already do.
Because everyone tells stories.
Most people tell, you know, not so great stories, but
it doesn't take much to become a very good storyteller.
So it's a crazy thing for businesses not to be doing.
Matt Abrahams: What makes for a good story.
And I know this is a big question, but I'd love to
hear sort of the essentials from your perspective.
Matthew Dicks: You know, I think the first thing people really have to
sort of understand and embody is the idea that no one ever wants to hear
anything you have to say or show them unless you give them a reason to do so.
I work with a lot of, a vice president who's going to take the stage at the Javits Center.
And because there's five thousand people in a chair and he
has a microphone, the assumption is they will listen to me.
And I have to, sort of dissuade people from believing that because I have
been in many audiences where I'm sitting in a theater and I am not listening
to anything anyone is saying because it is genuinely not entertaining.
So the first thing we have to do as storytellers is acknowledge that it is
our imperative to say things in such a way that make people want to hear us.
And then in terms of telling a great story, what people really do need to think about is the
idea that every story is about a singular moment in our lives or in the lives of our business.
Which means there's a moment of change.
A story is designed to explain that moment of change with the greatest clarity possible.
So about ninety-five percent of a story is really just the setup
to the singular moment that we're trying to achieve at the end.
And this applies to every book you read, every movie you watch.
They're all essentially aiming to a moment where someone is going to encounter a situation
where they have to make a decision that's going to result in a fundamental change in their life.
The problem most people have is instead of telling a
story, which is about change, they report on their lives.
I'm going to tell you some stuff that happened to me over the course of some chronological period.
And that is why we have spouses and parents.
So unless something meaningful happened that touched your heart and
touched your mind in some significant way, you don't really have a story.
So figuring out what a story is, understanding what a story is not, and then really believing
that your audience doesn't care about you unless you give them a reason to care about you.
All those things are pertinent if you want to tell a great story.
Matt Abrahams: Can you share a few of the strategies that you
coach and teach people to help them be better storytellers?
Matthew Dicks: I tend to think that the beginnings
of stories are the most important parts of a story.
I used to sort of think that beginning and endings were equal.
But I've sort of come to the realization that if people
aren't listening to you, the end of your story is irrelevant.
Sort of like a story is a plane ride from A to B, but if they don't get on your plane,
it does not matter if you've taken a lovely journey because no one was there to hear it.
So I tend to think, the first thirty seconds, one minute of your story,
however long it takes to sort of get it launched off the ground is critical.
And so if we're telling a story, I tell people one of the easiest things they can begin to do is
simply begin your story with location and action, meaning where are you and what are you doing?
It's a beautiful way to begin a story because first of all, it silences everyone.
Our brains are trained to listen to story.
So if you begin a story with location and action, it's
a signal to everyone else's brain to shut the hell up.
Because a story is being told and our ancient brains say,
this is going to be important, this is going to be valuable.
So we start with location, I'm standing in a kitchen.
You automatically can see a kitchen.
You probably see your own kitchen or your parents kitchen or maybe a kitchen you see on television.
But I want to leverage your imagination.
And then we begin with action as well because people want
stories to begin and most people don't start stories with action.
They begin with explanation.
But that's not how movies begin, movies begin with something is happening
and we're going to teach you along the way what you need to know.
That's what storytellers have to do.
So if they just begin with location and action on every story that they tell, they're
instantly going to become much better storytellers and people are going to listen to them.
Matt Abrahams: Wow, you said so many things there that are so important.
That analogy to movies and how movies start with action that gets you engaged.
And I love that you're reinforcing something we've talked a lot about that.
Our brains are wired for story.
We're not good with lists.
We're not good with bullet points.
What role do emotions, like suspense and curiosity, play in effective storytelling?
Matthew Dicks: Our goal as storytellers is to get people to want
us to say the next sentence, to wonder what the next sentence is.
And so one of the best ways to do it is through suspense.
And suspense essentially is just the strategic inclusion of some
information with the strategic exclusion of other information.
So people always tell me, well, my story isn't suspenseful.
And I say, no story is inherently suspenseful.
It is the way the storyteller crafts it that creates suspense.
The best example I have is a crossword puzzle.
A crossword puzzle is nothing more than a suspense device.
It says there's a five letter word for the color blue.
So you now know you have a clue and you know, it's five letters.
I've created suspense in your mind and right now in the minds of everyone listening to us.
If you figured it out, you feel great.
And as a storyteller, I'm thrilled.
Because when you solve the riddles that I create in my stories,
dopamine is released and you suddenly feel good about yourself.
And I'm the one who caused that to happen, so it makes you like me more.
And the great thing about suspense is, the closer you get to
having that suspense solved, the more suspense becomes inevitable.
At the end of a mystery novel, that is the absolute moment of maximum suspense.
You have all the clues, the murderer is about to be revealed, and
you're absolutely as close to the edge of your seat as possible.
So if I tell you that that five letter word for the color blue starts with an
A, now I've actually increased suspense by giving you more information, right?
And so now your audience is thinking, what is a five letter
word for the color blue beginning with the letter A, right?
So the more information that we sort of drip into a story, the greater
the level of suspense, which creates the greater level of wonder,
which means people want to hear more about what we're trying to say.
Matt Abrahams: Can you translate that into something someone in business might do.
So I'm creating a marketing presentation or an all hands meeting update.
How might you use suspense in that regard?
I mean, do you start by saying, hey, I'm going to share the results of our
quarter with you, but first I'm going to do this, or how do you make that reality?
Matthew Dicks: Steve Jobs, when he launched the iPhone, the initial iPhone,
the first thing he says when he comes out onto the stage is, I have been
waiting two years to share with you what I'm going to talk about today.
Something has caused the CEO of this amazing company
to wait two years in order to talk about it, right?
That instantly creates a sense of wonder, what is going to happen.
So rather than saying I'm here to report on the quarterly results, I might say
something like, I've got three things to tell you about the quarterly results.
That already creates suspense because that creates three mental buckets in everyone's mind.
It is just inherently a need to figure out what's going to be in those buckets.
And then if whoever's reporting says, I'm here to report the quarterly
results, I have two great things to tell you and one thing we need to work on.
That is also suspense now, which is strategic inclusion of
information alongside the strategic exclusion of information.
We don't want to begin our talks with, we're going to talk about three things
today, and then you say the three things, well, you've just killed all the suspense.
Also, if you're building a deck, for example, people kill suspense all the time
with a deck by putting up words on a slide that they are simultaneously speaking.
So if we can just be thinking about, how can I tell my audience some of
the things that are coming, but not all of the things that are coming?
And if I can be strategic about saying things that create wonder in the
minds of the audience, now I'm gonna hold them for a longer period of time.
Matt Abrahams: I like this use of the word wonder.
It's a powerful way to think about what we're trying to accomplish when we communicate.
Matthew Dicks: Yeah.
And by the way, did you get the five letter word for blue yet?
Have you figured it out?
Matt Abrahams: I think it's a Azure.
Matthew Dicks: Very good.
I just had to make sure I didn't want your audience members to be suffering.
Yes.
Very good, it's the color of the sky.
Matt Abrahams: Yes.
And I have to admit part of the reason I knew it was Azure is it was a Wordle for me a while back.
Um, I'd love to get your insight into story and story structure.
What do you think about how structure helps or doesn't in storytelling?
Matthew Dicks: Let's say I'm telling a personal story that I'm going to use in a leadership context.
I'm going to tell you a story about something that happened to me and I'm
going to glean from it some wisdom that I'm going to bestow upon my team.
Just like a filmmaker, you want to think about each
location that you occupy in your story as a scene.
And so each one of those scenes can be carefully crafted.
You can actually use comic book panels, which a lot of my visual learners will use.
People will draw what happens in the story.
Sometimes they'll list words that they have to say in each scene.
So thinking about that in terms of structure is helpful.
It also allows you the ability to begin to manipulate the scenes,
because oftentimes a story is best told not chronologically.
So when you start to think about a story as a collection of movable scenes that can be adjusted and
sometimes even eliminated completely, that really helps people sort of get a hold of storytelling.
Matt Abrahams: And I just want to get a point of clarification.
I understand location when you're telling a story that takes place in the real world.
But in a business context, location could, I imagine, also
mean we're going to start by looking at the financial data.
And then we're going to move on to a different location, which might be the implementation space.
So location doesn't have to be like a physical space in the world.
It could be just a landing space for content.
Is that correct?
Matthew Dicks: It is.
Although if you can get physical spaces into these moments, I think it's really powerful.
One of my inclinations, for example, if I was reporting on the quarterly results, I would
probably begin with something to the effect of, I was sitting at my desk when the results
came in, I opened up the results and here's some things that I'm going to report to you today.
That creates a movie in the minds of the audience, right?
They now see you opening those results for the first time at a desk.
And now it feels like you're sitting at the desk with them.
We don't remember PowerPoint decks, but we remember people sitting at
desks, opening up quarterly reports and being surprised by what they see.
Matt Abrahams: In addition to or beyond analogies, are there other tools
to help us see the story and ultimately engage and remember it better?
Matthew Dicks: What we start with when we're communicating is we want to ask
ourselves what the theme, meaning, or message is that we're trying to deliver.
I was working with a contract attorney recently and he was talking
about how he needed to talk to his team about being more specific in the
language in their contracts, that they were sort of failing to do that.
And so we identified the theme, meaning, or message.
The theme was, consistency, relentlessness, attention to detail, that kind of a thing.
And so then I said, well, what story can we tell from our
lives or what metaphor can we find that will apply to that?
Now he didn't have anything.
So I gave him my example, which he ultimately stole.
But I said, when I go to a restaurant, I always tell the server that
I don't want a pickle on my plate because the pickle is the only item
that restaurants arbitrarily just place on your plate without warning.
You order a hamburger and for some reason an enormous dill pickle can be found lying beside it.
I hate pickles.
I cannot stand them.
And the worst thing about pickles is they infect everything else on the plate.
Your hamburger and your french fries will taste like pickle if there's a pickle on the plate.
So no matter what I order in a restaurant, I say, and please no pickle on the plate.
That was the story that I would tell his contract team.
The approach that I take towards pickles when I'm ordering food at a
restaurant is the same approach I want you to take towards contracts.
Meaning relentless attention to detail, even if it seems unnecessary.
I do not want there to be a single loophole in any contract, which means clam chowder
does not come with pickles, and we're going to say it, even if it sounds crazy.
He loved it.
And I said, well, what's your story?
And he said, I'm just going to use that one.
Now, ideally, the best version of this situation is he finds a personal story that is
relatable to him because then he becomes more relatable to his team at the same time.
That's the beauty of storytelling.
If you take an actual story or a metaphor from your life, and you use that in your business
story, not only are you communicating more effectively, but you're also sharing of yourself.
You become known as the boss who hates pickles, right?
And if you do that often enough, people get to know you on a personal
level and they start to like you and be more connected to you.
Let me add one more thing that I didn't mention.
The beauty of that pickle story is now every time a pickle crosses the plate of one of
his team members, they're going to be reminded of his lesson and the importance of it.
Matt Abrahams: Do you recommend that people stockpile story?
And if so, how and where do they find these stories to stockpile?
Matthew Dicks: So, the best way to find stories, in my mind, is something I call homework for life.
I was sort of desperate, a little more than a decade ago now, for finding stories.
I was telling stories on stages all over the country, and I didn't want
to become one of those storytellers who tells the same story every time.
So, in an effort to find new stories, I gave myself this homework.
I'm an elementary school teacher for twenty-five years,
so I'm inclined to solve problems through homework.
Essentially what I started doing was, this is the prompt I actually gave myself.
What was the most story worthy moment that happened over the course of the day?
Meaning if someone kidnapped my family and wouldn't give them back, unless I told a story
about something that happened over the course of that particular day, what would the story be?
Even if it's not entertaining, I write down the moment.
My thought was, I'll get one moment per day, maybe I'll find one new
story per month, twelve new stories per year, that would be fantastic.
Instead, what I discover is our lives are just filled with stories.
Our lives are packed with stories that we don't notice.
Things are said to us, or we see things, or we do things.
And they sort of go unacknowledged in the busyness of life.
And so Homework for Life taught me that all of these moments are happening all the time.
And when we capture them, suddenly, in addition to a
lot of other benefits, we suddenly have stories to tell.
And instead of getting twelve new stories per year, I get hundreds of new stories every year.
Because I see things that I previously did not see.
And I'm not a unicorn in any way.
Everyone who does Homework for Life, tens of thousands of
people all over the world now, they all report the same results.
And so it's the thing that generates the most content for me.
And then the beauty of Homework for Life is, everyone says that time flies, but it doesn't really.
What happens is it goes by unaccounted for.
So if I ask you how many days from 2023 can you really remember from last year?
If you're really good, you can remember maybe a hundred days.
So of course, time flies for you.
Because you've essentially wiped out two hundred and
sixty-five moments of memory that you've thrown aside.
Those days were worth something.
Like things happened on those days that were worth remembering.
Most people can probably only remember about maybe thirty or forty days
from last year, which means you're really wiping out so much of your memory.
In 2015, I was capturing about one and a half moments per day, one point five.
Last year, it was seven point eight.
It's not because my life is more interesting last year than it was in 2015.
It's because my lens for storytelling, my awareness for what makes a story, my acknowledgement
for what has meaning in my life, all of those things have increased considerably.
Matt Abrahams: Absolutely.
It is one thing to craft a compelling story, but it's another thing to deliver it.
What advice do you have that can translate to people's everyday lives
in terms of how we actually tell a story, not craft it, but tell it?
Matthew Dicks: Right.
So practice is unfortunately the best advice I can give someone, which is tell more stories.
The person who tells the most stories is probably the best storyteller.
You know, when it comes to the actual delivery of a story, there's,
there's really four components that you can sort of play with.
But it's basically pacing, pausing, pitch, and volume.
But what you want to be thinking about is things like, well, at this part
of the story, I'm sort of in a rush, so I should increase the pace, right?
Or I'm approaching the end of the story.
And when you approach the end of almost any story, you
should start to decrease the volume and decrease your pacing.
It's a signal to the audience that we're coming to the end, which is great for an audience, right?
And so storytellers can signal these things too is by reducing our
speed and our volume at the end to let people know, okay, hang on,
we're coming to the end here and I'm about to say something important.
So thinking about those things, but practice is going to be critical.
Matt Abrahams: Matt, this has been fantastic.
Before we end, I'd like to ask you three questions.
One, I create just for you.
And two, I've been asking everybody who's ever been on this show.
Are you up for answering those?
Matthew Dicks: Absolutely.
I love this part.
Matt Abrahams: What have your students taught you?
So you teach elementary school.
I can imagine you've learned a lot from your students.
Can you share one of the lessons you've learned from
your students that you use in your everyday life?
Matthew Dicks: Every day I go to school and I occupy a room with twenty-one other human beings.
And I've been doing that now for twenty-five years.
And in doing so, what I've discovered is that through them, through their presence,
I've discovered that life is best lived, when it is filled with a diversity of people.
And I will not have had that opportunity had I not occupied a singular space
with twenty to twenty-five people every day for the last twenty-five years.
Matt Abrahams: That lesson I think is very powerful.
But more importantly, I want to point out that you used storytelling techniques to
answer your question, and I'd like everybody to just reflect on that for a moment.
You started by putting us in your classroom, and then you used vivid
description and detail to help us understand the lesson that you learned.
So storytelling isn't just for making your point.
You can use storytelling in answering your questions and giving feedback.
It's a tool that allows you to connect and communicate.
Matthew Dicks: Yeah, I almost never answer a question absent a story.
My wife can tell you that that is absolutely the case.
The simplest trick I give to people is, if someone asks you
how you're doing, you should never say good or bad or well.
I will always say, when someone says, how are you doing?
I'll say, well, it was a little crazy this afternoon because my son had
Little League and my daughter had dance and then they both had Scouts.
Which is my way of saying I'm a parent with two kids
and they're very involved in a whole bunch of things.
Matt Abrahams: Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why?
Matthew Dicks: I'm going to say my wife, which feels like a terrible cop out, I admit.
My wife is a tremendous communicator because she
understands the value of exceedingly direct communication.
She does not ever sort of try to avoid a difficult conversation.
And everything that she says is tempered with good intent.
Matt Abrahams: Final question for you, Matt.
What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe?
And I can imagine for someone like you, you've got lots of ingredients.
What are the, would you say are the first three?
Matthew Dicks: I'll say vulnerability first, meaning you're going to be
willing to talk about the things that a lot of people avoid talking about.
That is a draw to anyone when we're willing to talk about our failures.
You know, when Domino's in 2009 came out with their campaign that said, our pizza is terrible.
That campaign succeeded because of the vulnerability
that they were willing to express in that campaign.
I think number two is relatable.
I tell a story about going through the windshield of my car when I'm 17, and I
actually die on the side of the road and am brought back to life through CPR.
That is not a relatable story and yet it is the most famous story that I tell
because that story ends in the emergency room when my parents fail to show
up and my friends fill a role that has been empty for me for a long time.
It becomes relatable because everyone understands what it's like
to be let down at some point by a parent or another loved one.
So making sure that your stories are not relatable in terms of the
content, like, oh, this happened to me, so maybe it happened to you.
But instead thinking about what is this story really about?
And is that thing that it is really about relatable to other human beings?
And then the last word I'll say, which I've said a bunch of times already here is entertaining.
No one wants to listen to you unless you're going to be entertaining.
And that can be funny, that can be suspenseful.
Sometimes entertaining is just, I'm going to tell you something
you've never heard before and it's going to blow your mind.
Matt Abrahams: Vulnerability, relatability, and being entertaining, essential ingredients.
Matt, thank you for sharing.
Matthew Dicks: Thank you.
It was my honor.
Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast.
To learn more about storytelling, please listen to episode
50 with Paula Moya and episode 47 with Stephanos Zenios.
This episode was produced by Jenny Luna, Michael Riley and me, Matt Abrahams.
Our music is from Floyd Wonder.
With special thanks to Podium Podcast Company.
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