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Lights Up is a living history project that aims to shine a light on inspirational women who have led the way in the theatre industry in the East Midlands and inspire the next generation of young women growing up in the region. This series of podcasts features 9 episodes interviewing pioneering women in theatre. You can subscribe to listen to all episodes or watch the filmed interviews on our website.
Lights Up is a project conceived and delivered by Fifth Word in partnership with Derby Libraries, in association with Derby Theatre and supported by The National Lottery Heritage Fund.
Anisa Archer:
Welcome to Fifth Word’s Lights Up! podcast. This is a series of interviews with pioneering women in UK theatre that we hope will inspire the next generation of theatre makers. The women featured all have a connection to the East Midlands region in England and have been interviewed on camera by young women aged sixteen to twenty-one.
In this episode, Sarah Brigham, Artistic Director and Chief Executive of Derby Theatre, is interviewed by me, Anisa Archer, on the 6th March 2020 here at Derby Theatre, which is a learning theatre in partnership with the University of Derby, producing theatre in the heart of the city with a focus on artistic excellence and supporting the next generation of Theatre Artists.
Before Derby Theatre, Sarah has worked across the UK as an actor, educator and director including Dundee Rep, York Theatre Royal, Lyric Hammersmith, West Yorkshire Playhouse and running The Point.
Sarah Brigham:
So, my name is Sarah Brigham. I was born in Hull – well, just outside of Hull, a little place called Beverley – in 1976, if that's relevant (laughs), and I'm the Artistic Director and the Chief Executive of Derby Theatre.
Anisa:
What is your connection to the East Midlands?
Sarah:
So, I moved here in 2013, basically for work. I grew up in Yorkshire, but then since working in theatre, I've lived all over the country. I've lived up in Scotland. I've lived down in the South East. And then I've landed in the middle. So yeah (laughs).
Anisa:
Who did you live with, growing up?
Sarah:
My mum, my dad, my brother, my dog, and then my grandma as well. My grandma was really kind of key in the first kind of eleven years of my life.
Anisa:
What's your first memory of theatre?
Sarah:
My first memory of theatre is…
I've got a couple, but I think the one that I go back to most is when I was really little, I was about five.
My dad had heard some music that had really moved him, and that music was opera. When he was a bricklayer, on a building site, a guy had basically taught him everything about opera and they used to play it. So he decided that this company was coming to Hull and that we should go. And so, I was only about five (laughs) and opera isn't really the most family-friendly thing, but he decided that his little girl should go and see this big, important opera.
And my dad didn't go to the theatre very often and he thought that he had to wear a dinner jacket - a dinner suit - so he went and hired a dinner jacket, a dinner suit (laughs). Obviously, I was five and I didn't have a clue. Anyway, we went into the theatre and obviously my dad recognised at this point that he was probably a little bit overdressed.
But anyway, we sat and we watched this thing and I just remember it wasn't very interesting. But I remember just being really, like, overwhelmed by everything and, oh wow, all these people. Then at the interval we went for an ice cream, which was the thing I was probably most interested in, and the woman who was selling the ice creams said, "Oh no, people who play in the orchestra don't have to pay for ice creams," because he had this dinner suit on (laughs). My dad was obviously massively embarrassed.
Now he tells that story and laughs about it but I suppose that, it’s - and it's kind of grown into mythology in the family. But I suppose what it always makes me think about is about how we shouldn't have to feel like we have to dress up to go to the theatre, or be someone we're not, and that theatre should be for everyone. And that if you just hear something or want to see something, you should just be able to walk in and just see it. So it's informed a lot of how I think about what theatre should be.
Anisa:
Thank you for sharing that.
What was the main trigger for you to want to work in the industry?
Sarah:
It was when I was in Youth Theatre and my Youth Theatre Director at the time – a guy called Damian Cruden – I remember we were putting a show on and I remember him saying, "If you just want to talk to four walls, then don't work in theatre. Theatre is about talking to the public and telling them what you think life should be like and how the world should be like." Basically, theatre can change the world.
I was like, “Oh yeah, that's great.” And because I was quite political, and I still am very political, I was like, oh yeah, you don't have to stand up on a soapbox and tell people what to think. Actually, through theatre, you can help people think differently about the world and start to see the world through other people's eyes and start to understand a bit about themselves and a bit about how the world works.
And I think that really stayed with me and I was like, oh yeah, that's exciting.
Anisa:
Definitely.
What's your own personal journey into the industry?
Sarah:
So, I think Youth Theatre was really important. I think, like… So I went to Hull Truck Youth Theatre. It was free to attend and it was brilliant. I made some friends, that you know, really great friends, and had a really great time.
I applied for loads of drama schools, loads of universities, didn't get into drama schools. And then through clearing – because I didn't fail my A-Levels but I didn't get the grades I should've done. I discovered boys and got less interested in grades, so I ended up with two Bs and a D when I should have had As and Bs. So I decided, okay, I'm not going to go to drama school, I'm going to go to university. But as I only got two Bs and a D, the universities, my first choice and second choice, both said "No, you didn't get good enough grades." Then through clearing, I actually got into one of the drama schools that I'd applied to go to and had rejected me, but onto a different course. And it was the best thing I ever did.
So, it was a drama school that doesn't exist any more, it was called Bretton Hall, part of Leeds University, and it was in the middle of the Yorkshire Sculpture Park. So, like it's the worst place to be a student when you're eighteen (laughs). There’s no pubs, no clubs (laughs). There is literally nothing, just a load of fields, but it was a great three years. Really amazing.
Then I got out of that and I went, “Oh, I want to be a director and I don't know how I do that.” And I didn't know anyone who worked in theatre or have any contacts or whatever, but I managed to convince a theatre company, through a teacher at uni, to give me some work experience. So I worked in a bar on the night and I went and volunteered during the day. And it nearly killed me, but I had really amazing time.
And then that company, theatre company, blah blah blah, they started employing me as an actor, and then I worked as an actor, basically, for six years, just kind of doing various stuff, radio, theatre, and then eventually got into directing through that.
Anisa:
Sounds really interesting (laughs).
What gave you the confidence to pursue this as a career?
Sarah:
Probably it came from my Mum and Dad. The way I was brought up was you don't have to be rich, you just have to be happy, and I think that always stuck with me. They worked incredibly hard in their jobs so that I was able to have a fairly good upbringing, and I feel very grateful to them for that. They were really supportive.
(Laughs) My Dad does still sometimes say to me, "You could move into teaching. You could move into lecturing. You work at the theatre that's owned by the university, you could move into lecturing," because I think he sees that as more stable. But yeah, I think, really, my confidence came because my family supported me.
Anisa:
That is really important.
Sarah:
Yeah, it really is.
Anisa:
Can you tell me about any training that you took part in?
Sarah:
So, I think... Um, so obviously my degree taught me a lot, and then I think a lot of the training was just on the job. And then, actually - so I always went to a lot of workshops and to the Actors' Centre in London and kind of kept my skills up that way - but it was really hard back then to get any training in directing, really. You'd do a little bit of assisting in the room, so you'd kind of observe it? Training courses didn't really exist.
Actually, what I decided to do seven years ago when I arrived here – because suddenly I was in charge of this massive theatre – was I got two mentors. And one was a business mentor and one was an artistic mentor. The artistic mentor was brilliant. We just sat and talked about the plays that I was directing and it was just someone to kind of bounce ideas off really and kind of get into the text and really talk in-depth about that.
And the business mentor just helped me think about management of people and about cultural change, and how I ensure that my values match the organisation's values and that we drive forward in a forward-thinking way.
So, yeah, that's probably the most relevant training.
Anisa:
Who was your biggest inspiration in those earlier years of you starting your career?
Sarah:
Gosh, in those early years?
There was a lecturer who was amazing, and she was unusual because she was the only female lecturer. And she was also brilliant. And so I think she really inspired me.
Actually, it's quite interesting because we're talking about women… When I think back, actually, there was a lecturer who came in – she was actually just a recent graduate and she came back to teach us – and she only maybe did six sessions with us or something, but I just remember finding that really exciting - the stuff that she did with us. I don't know if that was because she was female and I wasn't used to seeing females in those positions, or if she was just brilliant, or a bit of both. It was probably a bit of both.
And then throughout my career, I think there’s just been lots of people who I've worked with, or worked for, who have kind of inspired me in lots of different ways.
Anisa:
Yeah.
And would you say being able to be taught by those women, would you say that impacted how you wanted to come into theatre?
Sarah:
I was always brought up to be a feminist, but I was always very aware that - and my Mum's a really strong character - but I think I was always very aware that as a woman, you are - without a doubt - you're at a disadvantage. Like, even now, I feel it.
I'm quite often the only woman in a meeting. You know, if I have meetings with my colleagues across the city, all the other CEOs [Chief Executive Officers] in the city are male, so you're quite often the only female voice in that room. So, I think when you see those women in those positions, it is definitely inspiring.
And I can't explain why or how, but I do think it does have an impact.
Yeah, definitely.
Anisa:
Thank you. When did you first recognise that you were pretty good at directing?
Sarah:
(Laughs) I don't think I've recognised that yet (laughs)!
I don't think I’ve recognised that yet (laughs)! I think I constantly watch my own work and go, “Oh God, why have you done that? Oh, you've messed up!” I think, yeah, I think I still really struggle to go, oh actually…
I had an interesting conversation with someone, actually, the other day. So, I've just gone into a rehearsal period, just last week, and it was the Sunday night before and I was getting a little bit like, uhhh. My friend, who's a man, said to me, "What are you worried about?" and I was like, "Because I'm going into rehearsal and what if I mess it up?" and der-der-der, all those, you know, anxieties and panics that you have. He was like, "But you've done it loads of times before," and I'm like, "Yeah," and he said, "And every time, it's been successful. Have you ever had a terrible, terrible show where everyone's hated it?" and I'm like, "No." I've had shows where some people loved it and some people were like ‘meh’, but I've never had a show where everyone's panned it.” He was like, "So, it's unlikely it's going to happen then, isn't it?" and I was like, "But this might be the one!" (laughs) that's the thing.
So I don't think I'll ever get to the point where I go, oh yeah, I'm really good at that, no problem. I just don't think I will. Yeah (laughs).
Anisa:
Yeah, all of the women we've interviewed so far have actually said that.
Sarah:
(Laughs). Have they? (Laughs). That's so interesting.
Anisa:
(Laughs) Thank you for your honesty, Sarah. What qualities do you think make a good director?
Sarah:
So I think a lot of the qualities that we don't talk about are actually about how you are with people. I think it's about your personal skills.
So, this idea that a director sits and has this grand vision and everyone serves that is not really my way of working. Of course you look at the play and you have a way of doing it and have thoughts around it, but I think a really skilled director knows how to be in the room and work with, you know, maybe, twenty different people – creatives, actors, stage managers, technicians, all the people involved in putting it on – and knows how to communicate with each of those, individually.
Yes, knows how to get them behind you and move forward, but also knows, actually, this person needs this type of communication, this person needs that type of communication, and knows how to do that so that everybody's going in the same way and on the same page.
And I think that's the most important thing. Because, if you can do that, then you can release their creativity. You can do that for everyone and they can do that for you, then actually, that's when you get something really exciting.
Yeah, and then I guess it is about, with your creative team, having that vision of what it's like and knowing your audience and thinking, actually, “How is an audience going to respond to this?”, and testing things out and not being afraid to fail.
And going through previews and having no ego, really, and going, “Okay, I thought that was going to work brilliant but, do you know what? It doesn't. Right, get rid of it. Let's try this. Let's try that.” So yeah, I think they're the things, for me.
Anisa:
What drives you to do your job?
Sarah:
It sounds a bit rubbish but changing the world (laughs). I don't see the point in doing theatre if you don't think you're going to have an impact.
So, at the moment I'm doing a production that's got professionals and a community company working side-by-side, and the impact, without a doubt, is massive. I'm just seeing these young people – and they're from all over Derby, some are Disabled, some are D/deaf, some are hearing – but I'm just seeing their confidence rise and rise and rise and rise every rehearsal we do, which is wonderful. So I think that is the reason for doing it.
But I also think, when you put a play on stage, you only do it because you want the audience to go out talking about it. I don't want my audience to go out and go, "Oh, that was nice. Are we going to Pizza Express, or what?" (Laughs). Do you know what I mean? I want them to go out arguing about it, disagreeing about it, having a debate about it, and then for them to have shifted somehow and for them to either be angry at the play or love the play, but be having a conversation.
I think that's the same for whether you're making a show for three to seven year-olds or whether you're making a drama for older people. Ultimately, you want those audiences going out talking about it and then thinking about their place in the world in relation to it and how it might make you think differently, or the same, or reinforce, whatever. But I think that's what drives me.
Anisa:
Yeah, and it's those conversations that audience members have that almost then fuels you to create more plays and more plays.
Sarah:
Yeah. Yeah, and the fact that we've got to be in dialogue, haven't we? That's what life's about. It's about having conversations and, yeah, it's about challenging each other. And that's what theatre is. It's a two-way process, and that's why it's interesting, I think.
Anisa:
Thank you. What is the difference between being a director and being an artistic director?
Sarah:
Ooh, that's a good question.
Well, the way I read that question is that being an artistic director is when you're in charge of the vision of a company or a building, as well as just a production.
And so, my job as Artistic Director of Derby Theatre, is not just to pick the shows I want to do, because we probably wouldn't have any audiences – (laughs) I've got very specific tastes – but my job is to serve my community as an Artistic Director of Derby Theatre. It's about looking at the people of Derby and going, how can I make your theatre have the most civic presence that you want it to have? How can you engage and give you what you want, really, but also challenge you, and also say something about the city and to the city, and all of those things.
So I think, yeah, if I was just directing a show, then it's just, okay, it's about that show and what do we want to say with that show. But I think, as an Artistic Director of a building, you've got a bigger responsibility than that and to really serve your community as well.
Anisa:
If you had to choose, what three words would you use to describe your job?
Sarah:
Wow.
Variable, if that's a word (laughs), because I think we do different things. My job is different every day. I never have the same day twice, ever.
Oh, what else? Three words, yeah?
I guess, emotional, because it is about people and I think, actually, if emotion is present, then that's really important. And fun.
Anisa:
What do you most struggle with in directing, or find challenging?
Sarah:
Probably confidence, I think, actually? I think that's the root of it all.
I would say that whenever you come across a problem – and they're different in every show - so it might be that a particular actor is challenging for whatever reason, or a particular scene isn't quite working out or whatever… Generally, when you trace it back, it comes back to you feeling, or me feeling unconfident in my own abilities or knowing that, actually, we'll find the answer. Do you know what I mean? I think that's probably the thing that is the kind of demon, sometimes.
Anisa:
What do you think you'd be doing if you weren't a director?
Sarah:
I think… When I was younger, I thought I might be a teacher, and then I realised it's really hard work (laughs). So, no, I think, what would I do? What would I do and could I do is probably different to what would I want to do.
What I'd like to do is probably still something creative. I do a lot of writing, so maybe write something. Or I am very political, so I'd probably get involved in politics. Although, party politics I find a bit challenging. So yeah, maybe something like that, but I don't know.
But yeah, what I'd like to do is probably sit somewhere on a sunny island and just write books – (laughs) that'd be amazing – that people would actually want to read, rather than just my ramblings. Yeah (laughs).
Anisa:
Was there anyone who gave you your big break or really championed you?
Sarah:
I think there have been lots of people along the way who have supported me. I would say… I'm trying to think. I wouldn't say there's been anyone who's specifically gone, "Oh, here you go, here's an open door." In fact, I'd probably say most doors have been quite hard to push at, and I've had to push to get through them.
But I would say that I've had people supporting me to push that door open, definitely.
Actually, a lot of those are even some of the people that you've been interviewing. They might not have pushed them directly but just in how they've talked to you, or the encouragement that they give you, or that kind of thing. Yeah, I'd say that, probably.
Anisa:
When did the theatre become your career?
Sarah:
I think your career begins as soon as you decide it does.
So I think for me, like when I was thirteen, I decided I wanted to work in theatre and that that was going to be my life. And so actually, you could say, since then, that's what I've been working towards.
But I suppose, in reality, it was kind of after university and once I started getting paid for it, probably. (Laughs) Once someone gave me my first pay cheque and went, "There you go, there's your first pay cheque as an actor," I went, “oh right, I get paid for this.” Yeah.
Anisa:
What's been your biggest setback in your career?
Sarah:
My biggest setback? …Well, at the time there have been things that have felt like setbacks, but now, when I look back, there were loads of… So, I remember there was a period when I was applying for, probably, every job in theatre in the country (laughs). I imagine all the shows in the country were like, "Oh, it's her again," (laughs) and I wasn't getting any of them.
But now I look back and I go, a lot of the jobs I went for, actually, probably now I think, I dodged a bullet there. Like, (laughs) I'm quite glad I didn't end up running that theatre or doing that job because that's not really me, and maybe we didn't have the same kinds of values or whatever.
So I think when you're in the setback you go, “This is the biggest setback”, but I think once you get through it, you look back and you go, “Well, that was hard but, actually, it taught me lessons”, and had that not have happened, then I wouldn't be where I am now.
I mean, you can have massive setbacks. So, two years ago, I was diagnosed with a life-threatening cancer. You could go, “Oh my God, my life is over.” Actually, it taught me loads and I would say it even made me more certain about what it is I want to do.
And now I look back – and don't get me wrong, that was a really dark period of my life – but now I sit there and I look at it and I go, do you know what? I learned loads about myself. I learned loads about my friends and how much love and support I've got. I think I make better work now because I’m, like, I kind of go, “Do you know what? Nothing is as important as that, so (laughs) let's not worry about some little play.”
So I think you can go through what feels like massive, massive, setbacks and, once you get on the other side – you'll always get to the other side of it – when you get to the other side of it, you can look back and go, do you know what? It taught me something. Even though it was hard, it taught me something and it was worth it, I think.
Anisa:
How did you cope in the time - in certain setbacks when you were in them, and you did feel like, “oh, this is huge?” - how did you cope with them?
Sarah:
I don't know if I did (laughs). What were my coping strategies? I think, again, it's really easy to look at people and go, oh, because you're successful or because I deem you to be successful, then you've obviously, like, dealt with it really well.
The reality is, when you get setbacks, you cry (laughs), you eat too much junk food (laughs), you, you know, do all the things you shouldn't do, but you eventually get a point where you go, well, I've got two choices here. I either roll over and give up, or I just keep going. And if you just keep going, you will get through it. If you put one foot in front of the other, you will get through to the other end. That's my take on it.
Anisa:
What do you most enjoy about your job?
Sarah:
Everything (laughs).
I think I'm really lucky. I'm not going to lie. I wake up every morning and I love coming to work. I feel incredibly grateful and thankful for the job that I do. I love the team that I work with, the people that I work with.
I most enjoy opening doors for other people, actually. I most enjoy seeing a young person, a young artist, a young whoever, who's going, "Oh, you know, I want to do that," and you go, "Oh," and I know that just by giving them a little bit of advice, that's going to take them twenty steps on. That's really rewarding, I think, yeah.
Anisa:
What isn't quite so good about your job?
Sarah:
I suppose the millions of funding applications that I have to do (laughs).
But even that, I quite enjoy doing it because when you have to explain your work to someone else, it gets you to think about it? So whilst it would be nice for funders just to give you millions of pounds to make the work that you want to make, actually I find it quite interesting and useful.
I suppose what's not good is the deadlines and the timeframes that we work to. That's challenging. So you've got to make a play in this amount of time, or you've got to apply for this funding by this point, and all those deadlines, quite often, you know they don't nicely come one at a time. You're often hitting maybe ten or eleven deadlines all at the same time, and that can become really stressful.
Anisa:
I would like to talk to you about the changes in the industry for women. What have you noticed?
Sarah:
I've noticed that we talk about it a lot more. So that's good. I've noticed that people are now aware that it's a problem. But I'm not sure we're close to solving it yet.
That would be my answer, hmm.
Anisa:
What are the advantages of being a woman in your role?
Sarah:
Erm, I think it gives you a way of looking - you know, you're informed by whatever it is that you are - whether that's your class, your sexuality, your gender, you know, all of those things. And so it gives you a way of looking at the world or looking at a play, or whatever.
So yeah, I think it gives you just a, yeah, you know I think it informs how you look at the world.
Anisa:
What are the disadvantages?
Sarah:
I think society, the industry, puts barriers in your way, without a doubt. I think there is a glass ceiling, and whilst maybe that glass ceiling is getting raised a little bit, I think it's very definitely still there.
Anisa:
Would you say these disadvantages are also another source of fuel or energy to drive you to do your job?
Sarah:
Yeah.
Anisa:
And push through those barriers?
Sarah:
Yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, if someone tells me I can't do something, then I'm like, I think I can (laughs, click fingers), come on.
Yeah, definitely.
Anisa:
If you had a magic wand and could change one thing in the industry, what would it be?
Sarah:
Pfft, wow! I suppose… Oh wow, let me think about that.
I guess it would be lifting people's prejudices, generally, kind of about everything (laughs). Do you know what I mean? Yeah, just helping people to understand that it's all right to cast – I don't know – a black actor and a white actor and they can be sisters. Because you know what, it's theatre (laughs), we can believe that, and it happens also. Yeah, it's okay for a woman to play Hamlet. Yeah, I guess it would be just to make people a bit more open to change.
Anisa:
What's your greatest achievement?
Sarah:
There's loads of stuff I'm really proud of. It's really hard to, erm, boast and it's really hard (laughs) to pick one thing that you go, “Oh yeah, that's it.”
I hope what my greatest achievement is that people walk away from interacting with me and feel that I'm generous and can inspire them. Do you know what I mean? I think your impact on other people has to be your greatest achievement.
You know, there are certain shows that I've directed that I've gone, “I'm really proud of that one,” but yeah, I think your greatest achievement has to be a bit more than that.
But it's really hard to go ‘it's that’, if that makes sense.
Anisa:
Yeah. Yeah, is there a production that you are most proud of?
Sarah:
Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's a production that I'm most proud of but there are productions that I've really loved directing.
So, ironically (laughs), given what we're talking about, when I directed Look Back in Anger, I loved directing it. So, Look Back in Anger – I don't know if you know it? – is known as a pretty misogynistic, sexist play, but it's a kind of classic text and, supposedly, they talk about it being the first time that they put a working-class character on stage. That, prior to that, it was all drawing rooms and whatever. But I loved directing it. Whether it's the show that I'm most proud of – do you know what I mean? – or whether I think it's my most successful show, is slightly different. So there's that show.
And there was also a show that I did here called Solace of the Road, which was really amazing because we worked with young people in care and a professional company. And that just felt really special, because it felt like we were telling a story that really mattered. So I really enjoyed that.
But then I also think about some of the youth theatre productions I directed, especially when I was back at York Theatre Royal. Yeah, I think again, in terms of the impact, I think there are certain shows that we did there that really helped a lot of young people feel really confident in their future.
Anisa:
That's lovely. Thank you. How would you suggest a young person can get into this industry?
Sarah:
I think joining a youth theatre is the first thing they should do (laughs), without a doubt.
By youth theatre, I mean if you're looking for a youth theatre, you should be looking for something that isn't there just to teach you to sing and dance but is interested in your self-expression and what you have to say.
That's the difference, I think, between a youth theatre and a stage school. A youth theatre can do all the other things, like supporting your acting and your skills, but it should, first and foremost, be about actually looking at you as an individual and helping you express yourself. That's the first and foremost thing.
Then if they're in Derby, get in touch with Derby Theatre, because that's what we're here for. If they're in another city, then go and bang on the door of their theatre, because that's what their theatre should be there for. Yeah, that's what I would say.
Anisa:
What advice would you give your younger self?
Sarah:
Know that, one way or another, it will work out. Just keep doing it and keep believing in yourself. You can afford to believe in yourself a bit more.
Anisa:
Mmm. That’s great advice. Thank you.
We hope you enjoyed this interview. Also, the full-length video recordings can be found on Fifth Word’s website, along with images and other details from Sarah’s personal archive.
Next week, Emteaz Hussain, playwright and performance poet, is interviewed by Jas Nolan Green, aged 18, in Derby.
If you know someone who may also enjoy listening, we would really appreciate every can share and recommendation, as these help us grow our audience and get these inspiring stories to even more people.
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