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This podcast is where your inner work begins. Each season, we skip the small talk and get straight into: nuanced conversations about self-care and inner work where you’ll feel understood instead of overlooked, practices you can try as soon as the episode ends, and reflective prompts that connect you and your experience to the conversation.
Taylor Morrison
You're listening to Inner Warmup where your inner work begins. I'm Taylor Elyse Morrison, creator and author of Inner Workout, and you as always are our expert guest. Thanks for being here today. Before I introduce you to today's topic, let me remind you about the companion resource for this season, The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook. This workbook expands on the three strong friend archetypes: the caregiver, the intellectual and the picture perfect strong friend, and it has over 40 reflection questions to help you explore your strong friend tendencies, focus your inner work, and identify where you need relational support. All of this for just $4.99. You can get it by clicking the link in the show notes or by going to bitly slash strong friends that strongs friends plural, so b i t dot l y slash strong friends.
Today we are talking about vulnerability. And I'm thrilled to introduce you in a moment to Celeste Viciere also known as Celeste The Therapist. She is a renowned therapist, mental health advocate, best selling author and podcast host. She's frequently quoted by the media as a mental health expert. You may have seen her in The Washington Post, NBC News, Vice and more. Celeste has been in the mental health field for nearly 20 years, and believes in the power of living a conscious life. She's dedicated her personal and her professional endeavors to breaking the stigma surrounding mental and emotional health, especially in communities of color. I already know y'all are going to love this conversation. And I have to be honest, it kind of surprised me. I knew obviously that we were talking about vulnerability, but where the conversation went, surprised me in a good way. And I'm hoping that it will unlock some surprise insights for you as well. So without further ado, let's get into the show.
Celeste, I am so excited to have you on the show. Thanks for being here today.
Celeste Viciere
Thank you so much for having me. I'm just as equally as excited as you are.
Taylor Morrison
And this is fun, because we originally met because I got a chance to be on your podcast. And like, as I was talking to you, I was like we need to have you on Inner Warmup. So I'm really glad that you said yes to the invitation.
Celeste Viciere
Of course, of course. I cannot wait.
Taylor Morrison
This season of the podcast is all about exploring this concept of the strong friend. And at Inner Workout, we see that as this person who walks through the world with an armor of projected strength. And this shield, this metaphorical shield, it creates barriers between themselves and others, often getting in the way of their ability to give care, to receive care and to do their own inner work. So with that definition in mind, I'm curious, I've got two questions for you to kick it off. Do you consider yourself to be a strong friend or maybe a recovering strong friend? And if so what has that journey looked like for you?
Celeste Viciere
So you know, over the years, I've like redefined what strong looks like. And when I think about being strong, I think about being able to understand the good and the bad, the hard times, and the good times. And so now that I feel like I have been able to be more comfortable with my emotions and the things that I go through, where it doesn't bleed out of nowhere, I feel like I'm strong according to my definition of strong. So I'm still able to, like outside of my practice, be a good friend but also I know when to pull back when I'm not in a space to be there for people. Before I used to do everything regardless of what I was feeling and now like I'm very mindful of my bandwidth and my cup, and I don't do more than I can handle.
Taylor Morrison
That's really beautiful, I love that. I'm really big on definitions. And coming back to Okay, what does this mean to me and how does this show up for me? So I love hearing you say Yeah, I redefined strength. So you still have a strength but it's maybe not the strength that you were looking at before. And that's powerful. I, Oh, go ahead, were you going to add something?
Celeste Viciere
No, I was gonna say you're absolutely right. You know, I definitely like growing up in a Christian household, a religious like going to church and stuff and never seeing my mom cry, still haven't. You know, I think that that modeled for me what like strength was supposed to look like and so like I I tried to take it on, and it wasn't working. So yeah, being able to redefine it for myself has been a powerful experience.
Taylor Morrison
And that's so true often, that when we take on other people's models, whether it's your mom's or it's society's, it often doesn't work for us, until we take the time to define it for ourselves. And I'm hoping that we can bring some of that into our conversation about vulnerability. So the reason that I thought that this might be a good topic in the strong friend season, is because a lot of people who identify as strong friends or recovering strong friends need to work on practicing safe vulnerability. And before we get into the nitty gritty of it, talking about definitions, what does vulnerability mean to you?
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, you know, I definitely am somebody that's very vulnerable with myself. Anytime I'm working with people, I say, you don't have to share with the world what's going on, but you at least need to be honest with yourself. And I find that a lot of times people aren't honest with themselves about what they're feeling, not because they're trying to hide it, but they don't know how to delve into being vulnerable and being able to access the stuff that they're going through. So being able to be vulnerable is understanding when you need to pause, understanding when something affected you. And I think that because for so many people, they're survivors, they don't really pause to think about what is happening with them, even though their body may be giving signs, things may be falling apart, but they're not able to see like what they really need. So that's like kind of what I think about being vulnerable.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah and that's, I hadn't even thought about that of being vulnerable with yourself. Because my mind automatically jumped right to Okay, being vulnerable with the people in my life. But that makes a lot of sense. I'm not going to be able to be vulnerable with people in my life, if I can't even be vulnerable with myself about what's going on.
Celeste Viciere
Right. If you really think about it logically, you know, we break things down logically, it's like, oh, yeah, that makes sense, we're with ourselves. 24/7, right? So like, we really should be able to understand ourselves and what we need, since we're always with ourselves, and being able to start there, I think, can open up the door, the window to be able to express things to others as well, as needed.
Taylor Morrison
I'm curious, what has that looked like for you? Or maybe for the people that you work with? If we're starting with someone who is like, Oh, yeah, I'm not vulnerable with myself, what's like step one that they could do?
Celeste Viciere
Self awareness. I mean, you know, with with myself, it wasn't until I ended up in the hospital with my oxygen level, it dropped below 90, I was in an enormous amount of stress. And my body was screaming out. And they did all these tests and said, you know, like, everything came back normal, like maybe you should see a social worker. And I remember thinking like, these people think something's wrong with me, like I was offended that they thought I should talk to someone because I didn't grow up understanding mental health. Even though I was struggling, right? When I look back, I see the signs. And so the first part is self awareness. And I think, being able to identify that there is a problem, like, you know, we got to take the ego out of it, because we want to think that everything's going fine. We really want to believe that. But if it's not going fine, I think we have to acknowledge that you know what, something's wrong, right? Like, that's, I think that's the first step. And even like, with my clients, obviously, like them coming to work with me on their own, they have acknowledged like, they want to work on something, something's not right, they need another eye on things. And so I think, you know, for anybody listening that you know, may find this idea of vulnerability, like, oh, wow, like, I don't know if I'm vulnerable with myself, start with thinking about, like, what is going on in my life, and that just requires pausing. Something that doesn't cost money but you know, I think growing up in America, where we're all like, hustle and bustle, we don't really think about pausing in a way of like, this connection really helped me live my life and understand myself better.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah. And I want to lean into something that you said. So you were in the hospital and they told you to talk to a social worker and you were like, uh why do they think that I need help? And now part of your career is being on the other side of that helping people. So can you connect the dots for us? Like, how did that shift happen?
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, so you know, and I always share that because all I do is talk about mental health. And I just want people to know that the knowledge and the change is available to us all. You know the way people see my life and what I do now, they would never think that I as an adult, would have thought the audacity of somebody to say like I needed to talk to someone. So like, because my body and physically, you know, I started to have physical manifestations of my unmet internal needs, right, like, food was provided for me growing up, shelter, you know, the things that society says like, this is what you need keep climb, climb the hierarchy, right? Those were happening, but internally, there was no growth happening, it was just all pain. And so you know, I pulled the needles out of my arm, I left. It wasn't until I finished college, my bachelor's degree that, you know, I took a year off between Bachelor's and Master's. But because I didn't have school, because I was addicted to work and school and partying. So now you take school and studying off, I have all this time. And so now that I have all this time, all of these symptoms that were there, I felt them even stronger. And then I decided, like, you know what, like, let me try therapy, because like, nothing else is working. I got my degree, I got my own place, I got my like, all these things that society says you need, material things to have, but I'm still suffering. And so that led me into going into therapy, and then, you know, going further into my career to become a therapist.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you for sharing that. I just think it's really powerful for people to hear. One, that like someone who many people would consider is in a position of authority, as a therapist talking about mental health, had some of the reactions that we hear many people, especially many black folks say about like, I shouldn't need help, I don't need someone messing with my head, to now being in a place where you're holding space for other people. And I just also love hearing people's like winding career paths and journeys. And that change is possible, both for you as a person, but also change is possible in your career path as well.
Celeste Viciere
And it's so interesting, because I was already working with people in that case manager capacity and doing really good work but you know, it just, it's sad that a lot of people do good work with others but then when it comes to themselves, kind of like, you know, like, How did I not know, you know what I mean? Because I think there's something missing, this gap of like, well I already know that, but then it's like, am I applying it to my life? And I wasn't applying the same things I was telling others, which is pretty common. I wasn't applying that to my life. And so I was like, No, this can't, I can't, you know, I had to get sick and tired of being sick and tired and make a conscious decision to want to change and actually put in the work.
Taylor Morrison
That's a big thing that we talk about at Inner Workout is integration, like we can read all the books, we can listen to all the podcasts, we can do all the things, but if you're not taking action in your life, like, it doesn't really matter. And it sucks to say that because like I read just as many books and listen to as many podcasts as everyone else, but like, I'm not going to feel it in my life, if I'm not applying it. And sometimes to your point, I could be doing all the things and I'm not going to feel it in my life until I add someone else into my self care support system. You can see me from a different perspective, whether that's a coach or a therapist, or just, to go back to today's theme for the episode, being vulnerable with someone in my life, so that they can see this part of me that maybe I've been trying to hide.
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, especially you know, when you've had a lot, a lot of trauma or things that have gone on over the years, the mind only knows the tape of the past. And it's really hard to get out of that mindset without a different lens. And even journaling is helpful. People writing things out so they can actually see their thoughts. It's interesting when people are talking to me, and they use language that is very negative about themselves, and they don't realize it but it's so common. If you are saying that to me in session, that means like in your mind, that's what's going on in your mind. So, you know, that's why like being able to talk to somebody and even though I'm a therapist, I know therapy's not always accessible for people. I also know that some people don't find it helpful for them. And so there's like other modalities, I think that allows for the releasing to happen and the clarity to happen, right? Because it's like if you're so clogged up, how could you see clearly what's happening? You're just dealing with all these emotions, and not understanding what you need.
Taylor Morrison
And that's what I appreciated about our conversation when I was on your podcast is that it seems to me like you really see therapy as like one of the tools that can be useful to people but it's not a one size fits all. And I just really appreciate like the nuance and the openness with which you approach people supporting their well being. But I want to pivot slightly by bringing up probably, maybe the world's most popular social worker, Brene Brown. Most people listening probably know who Brene Brown is, she's written a lot of books. She actually talks a lot about vulnerability, and shame. And recently as in like, within the past year or so, I started hearing some people, especially like some black people, and some women of color talking about how aspects of the way that Brene talks about vulnerability may not always be accessible to everyone. So I'm going to read a quote from someone, and I want to get your thoughts. So this is from Dr. Carey Yazeed. And she wrote a larger piece that I'll link to in the show notes. She asked this question, "How can we be courageous and vulnerable when white women and men become upset and start to cry about how we "hate them" every time black folk come together to talk about our lived experiences?" And as someone who has read Brene Brown, has watched like her HBO special and that stuff, has been generally really inspired by her, I thought that was an interesting take. And I'm just curious what your thoughts are on what this person Dr. Carey Yazeed, offered around vulnerability and kind of the way that Brene Brown has popularized it?
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, so I'm familiar with Brene. Brown, I'm also familiar with, like, controversy that goes around her. I think that, you know, whether it's Brene Brown, or someone else, it's important to like, take what we can and then leave the rest, right? Because she's done so much amazing work and you know, she comes from a white lens right, from her world. So it may be skewed a little bit with the direction she's given for solutions. And it makes sense that it doesn't all work for us, especially, I think, over the last few years, you know, like, the disparities that exist in the black community has been really highlighted, especially around mental health. And I think, the white messengers, especially white women, they get a little bit more of a platform than black messengers. I mean, it's just the way society and I think social media has structured things. And the quote you just read is, I think is true, right? It is hard to be vulnerable, I think, around like certain communities, but it doesn't take away I think from her work as a whole. Does that make sense what I'm saying? Like being mindful of like, there are some good things, and maybe there's some things that don't speak to our needs. And that and that's okay.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah. And that's why I appreciated that take, because it was exactly what you said. And I even say this, like, at the beginning of my book, take what serves you, leave the rest..
Celeste Viciere
You do say that, yeah
Taylor Morrison
Because, yeah, because like, my lens isn't going to be everyone's lens or helpful to everyone. But the question that that like, quote, and topic of conversation really brought up for me, is like, how do we know when it's safe to be vulnerable? Like for you and I, we both think about that lens, through our lens as women, as black women. But for other people, it might be, I'm at work, and I'm thinking about who's in a position of authority and where are they in relation to me, or there's so many different ways that we could be thinking about safety and vulnerability. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that, how do we know it's safe to be vulnerable with someone?
Celeste Viciere
You know, if it's not in a kind of like, capacity of like therapy or some kind of coach, obviously, it's a little bit easier becauset that's what you're going to for that person. I also think it's important as we started off earlier, if you're not vulnerable with yourself, you will feel super exposed with others. The way I talk candidly about my mental health, about the struggles that I've had, that didn't happen overnight, you know, it was something where I became clear with myself, I understood my needs and the struggles I had. So like, if I share with Taylor and you say something negative, it's not going to harm, I don't feel I wouldn't feel harmed by you because I already know myself. When you know yourself, it's a little bit easier to share. You know, when it comes to people in your life, we want to make sure we're not like emotionally dumping on people. I think that when you have relationships with people that has been helpful or creates a sense of warmness in you when you're talking to them, if it's new to share, before you share, kind of saying like, You know, I really appreciate our relationship, would you be comfortable if I like shared a little bit more about some of the things that I've been dealing with,? You know, giving them an out if they may not be in a space to hear but I think before you even think about who can I share with, I think being real and honest with yourself first, is a really great start. And then knowing that the person may say, You know what, like, I'm not comfortable with hearing that or it's triggering. And it's not something against you, it's just, they understand what they need and they may not want to hear that at that time. So I don't know if there's like this blueprint on how to know who to share with but knowing not to share everything with everybody and not at one time, and know like, you're clear about like, your stuff first, before you open up to others.
Taylor Morrison
I think that's really important. And just to underscore that, like, this is really giving me a paradigm shift. Because like I said, earlier, I really thought we would have the vulnerability conversation, and it would be like, choose a close friend to share with, and you're like, No, no, no, no, that's like, step three. Step one is Get really clear with yourself, get grounded in yourself, and something powerful that you said Celeste, was like, then if I have that groundedness in myself, when I share, and if they don't receive it the way that I want them to receive or the way I imagined them, that's okay, because I have the rooting in myself. So we need to give ourselves that foundation. And I feel like if people take nothing else away from this conversation about vulnerability, take that away. Like it's got to start with you first.
Celeste Viciere
Absolutely, because especially if you're not clear with your stuff, it's scary. Like I see a lot of like marketing stuff around mental health now, you know, because it's a big booming industry. And if you're going to someone that may have a skewed lens on relationships or something, and you're not clear about your stuff, you might get even more confused, talking to them, or talking to a friend that may have have a lot going on in their life. So I think it'd be easier to use some discernment if you're rooted and grounded in yourself. Discernment around like the advice they give or the dialog that comes up out of the conversation as you're being vulnerable. It's really important to be mindful on the messenger, like I always using an example, like if my heart was like hurting, and I kept going to a foot doctor, but the foot doctor kept talking about my feet, and I want to talk about my heart, I had to look at my audience. I'm going to a podiatrist so I need to like understand, like, he may not be able to provide the information about the heart, and that's okay. And that's the same thing with friends in our lives. You know, I see this a lot in relationships, people that are partnered talking to single people who may be like foret dating anymore, they may find themselves getting really like crappy advice about their relationship. And while you're being vulnerable about what's going on, and that can skew your thoughts in a negative way. So that's why being rooted and grounded is so so important.
Taylor Morrison
Yeah, and you had an element in there too, of like, everyone will not be able to give you everything that you need. And so it's okay. It's funny. In my book club, we, we've read a couple of books. Right now we're reading How We Show Up by Mia Birdsong, which I highly recommend. I think I've talked about it on the podcast before, and it's a lot about community care. And Mia has a husband, is partnered, but she's also really intentional about seeking other people who can relate to different aspects of her, her as a mother, her as a black woman, her as a writer, or these different things. And so she doesn't expect just her husband or just one friend to be everything for her. She has a community who can support these different facets of her. And I feel like her relationships thrive because she's not putting too much pressure on a handful of relationships to be everything for her.
Celeste Viciere
Exactly. And that's so good. No, I think when it comes to friendships, that's where we fall short. I think that and I, because I speak to people for a living, I really, I you know, I tell people, everybody's not going to be everything, some people are, you gotta put them in categories. It's not like, you gotta say, hey, Taylor, you're in this category, and you're in this category, but you have to understand what their capacity is, they can't give you more than they can give themselves. And so like, if we're mindful of that, and not putting, even in my relationship with my husband, we were dating. I know, I put everything on him, right? Because he was the closest person to me, I wasn't mindful of like, all of my needs, and being able to understand this person, I can travel with, this person I can do a book club with, right. There's different people where in my life, where I know like, this is where I could talk about this or this is where I can do this. And it's clear, it's not like they're like, Oh, I'm in this category. But no, it's clear for me. So I don't have these expectations. And I'm not like mad that they're not showing up or they're not calling the way I call or texting back knowing they have like all these responsibilities. I think we get very much in our feelings when we have these relationships and we don't realize we're putting these expectations on on friendships that we have to really be mindful of.
Taylor Morrison
And speaking of friendships, we've been really talking about the perspective of the person who is being vulnerable, first with themselves, and then maybe they ask that question that you proposed, like, how, are you comfortable if I share a little bit more? Would you be open to that? I'm wondering, for those of us who maybe received that question who aren't triggered or dysregulated, by whatever topic they want to share, how can we receive someone else's vulnerability well, in a way that's supportive for them?
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, you know, I think sometimes, you know, I realized I saw it as a therapist when I first started in my practice, I remember I had a therapist I was seeing and he said, Celeste, like, you're always trying, at the end of each session, I know that you try to fix it, like, if it ends on it, like a sad note, you want to, like make it better, right? That's not my job, you know, sometimes there are hard emotions that we have to sit with. And that's very uncomfortable for people. So as the friend that may be hearing this stuff, understand that it may feel uncomfortable, right? And, and you can't fix it, you can't take their pain away. But listening is a powerful thing, being able to just be heard, right? A lot of times people aren't being heard. And as you're listening, you know, something like, you know, Wow, that sounds like that was hard, you know, What are you doing to help yourself? Or what do you think you need, right? So making sure you're not creating yourself as a solution, especially, you know, if we go with the definition of the strong black friend, you know, I was that person that was just jumping into action mode all the time. When I hear things, okay, okay, let me do this. And it's like, nope, take a pause so that you're not over committing yourself to something that you may not be able to do. And know that even if you don't have anything to give, the fact that you were able to allow this person to be heard is such a powerful experience for them.
Taylor Morrison
I love that. The power of just hearing them and sitting with them. And this is somewhat unrelated, but kind of related. I remember when I worked in corporate and worked in HR, and there was kind of a running joke that like, whenever we would have a survey, it could be about anything. But if there was a blank thing at the end that was like, open for people to share their thoughts, they would share whatever thoughts they had about the company because they were like, This is the first time someone's asked me. So I'm going to tell you my laundry list. Sometimes we get all caps of stuff. But it's like people just want to be heard. And hopefully you're not putting all caps and like yelling at your friends. But just the power of having people hear you and listen to you and be engaged without, like you said without having to fix it, without making it about you and being like, oh, yeah, that's like when I went through this, but just hearing them, that's beautiful. And we can all do that.
Celeste Viciere
We can. Community cares is really the movement. You know, I think this country is very individualistic. COVID created a lot of like, an isolation. But community care, like the mental health systems burned out, you know, if we move more towards the community care aspect and realize, like how important that is, it's not something that's taught. You look at some other cultures that live in a community, they live longer, they don't have the same medical conditions, and struggles that we have mentally because they're being heard, they're being seen. They're not in their head, there's something about when you're depressed, and your by yourself, you start to think that everything is wrong, all those negative thoughts could come flooding in. So like being able to be heard, being in community is important.
Taylor Morrison
Absolutely. And there's everything that's coming out now with the Surgeon General talking about like loneliness. And it really is like an epidemic right now. And one of the ways to combat that is for us to be listening to each other, and holding that space for and with each other.
Celeste Viciere
Yeah
Taylor Morrison
I really appreciate you saying this, because I think this is a reminder that I could always use. I've got one last question for you, Celeste. And it's kind of how we're ending every episode of this season. If you could offer one piece of advice to strong friends or recovering strong friends, what would it be? And it could be about vulnerability or it could be about anything but like one piece of advice to someone who's still really embodying that strong friend archetype.
Celeste Viciere
You know, I always say to have grace with yourself. I think that, you know, as we're learning about ourselves, and some of the ways that you know, it doesn't work for us, we can be really mean to ourselves in the way that we talk about the changes that we're trying to make, like what's wrong with you? Why did you say yes, and you know, have all these negative narratives, as we're trying to create change. It makes it harder to create change because you're beating yourself up around the change. And knowing that like and to feel uncomfortable as you're trying to change because your system is just so used to you doing it a certain way. So you're going to feel like you're doing it all wrong right? Your system is going through this transition. So have grace with yourself because you've been that way because of something in your environment that you didn't understand, but you adapted to, you survived. So like, in order for us to work on recovering from that kind of mindset of being strong is like having to do and be there for everyone. It's so important to be gentle with yourself as you're going through this process.
Taylor Morrison
We can always use that reminder: more gentleness, more self compassion. Well, Celeste, thank you so so much for sharing not only your wisdom, but also some of your story with us. If people want to stay connected with you, where can they find you?
Celeste Viciere
Yeah, so celestethetherapist.com, you can find all my links there. On social media, you can find me at Celeste Therapist. And thank you so much for having me. This is such an awesome conversation.
Taylor Morrison
Thank you.
So what did you think? That idea that vulnerability actually starts with us being vulnerable with ourselves is something I'm going to be thinking about and working with for a while. As we close out our show, friendly reminder that if you want to get more out of this podcast season, go ahead and grab The Strong Friend's Inner Workbook by clicking the link in the show notes. And if you loved this episode, as much as I did, please tell a friend, that's actually how podcasts grow. And even if you don't listen on Apple Podcast, if you could take a moment to rate and or review the podcast, it makes a big difference as we're trying to get guests, being able to show them Hey, people love the show and they're getting something out of it, goes a long way. Thank you so much for listening and thank you as always for your expertise. Take care.