112 | Winning Without Deep Pockets: Maurice Doyle on Capital-Efficient Drinks Growth

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

Maurice Doyle returns to MAFFEO DRINKS to dissect the drinks industry's inflection point, where COVID's artificial peak has given way to a "new reality" of capital constraints and complexity.

Drawing from his veteran experience across major spirits and scale-up companies, Maurice reveals how brands can achieve growth without abundant funding by focusing ruthlessly on strategy, particularly what NOT to do.

The conversation explores the tension between principles and tactics, why "I don't know" might be the most powerful leadership phrase, and how misaligned expectations between bottom-up brand building and top-down objectives create systemic friction.

Maurice's core insight: in a world where 95% of your target market isn't buying at any given moment, success comes from matching physical availability with mental availability while resisting the siren call of premature retail listings.

Timestamps:

• 00:00 Introduction and Industry Veterans Discussion
• 02:30 Current State of Drinks Industry - The Inflection Point
• 08:15 Capital Challenges and New Reality Post-COVID
• 12:45 Strategic Focus: The Power of Saying No
• 18:20 Principles vs Playbooks - Beyond Cookie Cutter Approaches
• 25:10 Getting Out From Behind the Desk Philosophy
• 32:40 Capital-Efficient Growth Strategies
• 38:55 Balancing Long-term Strategy with Short-term Pressures

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Maurice Doyle

Non-Executive Chair | Cotswolds Distillery

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

This is my favorite drinks.
If you have the principle of

brand built from the bottom up,
but you have top down

objectives, then that's a very
uncomfortable mismatch and so

have having alignment on the
objectives and the plan.

Is vital in this episode I
welcome back Maurice Doyle he's

one of the legendary people in
the drinks industry I called him

a veteran and we laughed about
it he's bringing a lot of

knowledge and insights from his
experience he's been working

William Grant's, he's been
working in Bacardi recently was

the CEO of Compass box.
He has seen so many things in so

many countries with Maurice.
We speak about the inflection

point that the industry is going
through at the moment.

There's a lot of of headwinds,
There's a lot of challenges on

capital.
It's not so readily available as

it was previously.
And we talk a lot about how big

and small brands would benefit
from having a very clear

strategy and deciding where to
focus on the.

Only two questions that really
matter about strategy.

It's where are we competing and
how are we going to win?

When you have less money, you
have to be more and more

choiceful about the answers to
your questions.

We talk about the fact that
there are no playbooks in this

world, and it's all about
understanding how to ask the

right questions and
understanding how to operate in

today's even more challenged
drink ecosystem.

So I don't want to spoil the
episode.

Let's dive in now.
Hi Maurice, welcome to my fair

drinks.
Hi, Chris, great to be speaking

with you again.
In the meantime, I want to tell

the listeners that we finally
managed to meet in person after

so many years.
Last year at BCB.

We even have a photo together.
Very special photo.

We had spoken many times, but
nothing beats meeting in person

Chris.
Yes, and I always remember your

quote that nothing great ever
happened from behind the desk,

right?
That's one of my guiding

principles.
Nothing magical ever happens

from behind the desk.
You have to get out there and

connect people.
You have to listen to what's

happening in the real world, and
that's way more powerful than

any report you ever get in your
desk.

That's great and it goes very
well with my insights come from

sitting at the bottom.
It does.

I've seen photos of you and you
know I've seen you in action on

Instagram, LinkedIn.
You've been traveling like crazy

in the last few years.
I want to start by asking you a

very broad question, which is,
you know, what's happening in

the drinks industry because
you've been in the industry for

quite a while.
I'm not nudging to your age, but

you know you are a veteran in in
experiences rather than years.

A little.
Part of me dies whenever

somebody describes me as a
veteran.

It's not, but it's fair.
No, no, no.

Well, veteran is now used even
by bartenders with 10 years

experience behind the bar.
So it's a very flexible and

fluid term now.
But you've seen different kind

of things happening throughout
the years.

I mean, when you started back in
the days to now, you must be

able to relay to previous
learnings and possible futures,

as I discussed in another
episodes with another guest and

what is happening now and what
has changed in the last few

years.
It's a great question because I

I really believe we're at AI
describe it an inflection points

for our industry where that
we're time of change.

It's a new reality.
We know the story about what

happened to COVID.
It was a boom time for many.

All of us thought we were being
successful because we were so

amazing at marketing and so
amazing at brand building.

The reality was there was an
artificial peak, which we now

understand it was driven by
cheap money and that changed.

Interest rates went up,
everybody came much more

cautious.
A few global socioeconomic

challenges that we all know
about and the world changed and

the industry changed and we're
now in a new reality where it's

much more challenging for people
to grow.

But with those challenges come
opportunities and we can talk

about those opportunities later.
The way I see the challenge is

we're now operating in a very
capital challenged world.

If you're a startup or a scale
up, then a lot of people are

focusing on looking for funds.
A lot of traditional fundraising

options like banks and investors
are stepping back.

There are a few new options
coming onto the market, but it's

very difficult to get funds.
That means people need to think

about why they need funds, they
really need funds, how much do

they need, etcetera, etcetera.
But also in the bigger companies

then they're dealing with higher
level of debt than they have for

a long, long time.
So they're also capital

challenged.
So I speak to businesses and I

work with brands that are
looking to come up with ways of

how they can grow in a capital
challenge world and in a more

complex world.
We know from the news about the

uncertainty of the world,
tariffs, exchange rates, supply

chain challenges.
It is complex, but by the virtue

of being a veteran, what I do
know, Chris, is that there will

still be winners and losers in
every period.

There's always winners and
losers and the people that do

the right things now will be the
people that have the accelerated

growth on the sunshine, John.
So they're really interesting

points in the industry, very
difficult for many, but there

will be winners.
And I think there are some

principles of how you can grow
in a capital challenge world.

And this is very much in line
with what I'm usually talking

about.
I was discussing in the previous

call that I thought about myself
when I had Ben Branson from

Sidley Silva as a guest, and he
was saying something that struck

with me because he was saying
like, I don't have, I don't have

a playbook.
You know, like he's built

successful brands.
But he said, like, I don't have

a playbook.
Over here is how you do it.

He said there's no cookie cuts
or formula.

And I've tried, I've started to
use that term now because it

really made me think because
it's like, OK, I kind of like

challenge myself.
And I said, am I, am I trying to

give a cookie katter formula to
my clients And I'm not.

It made me think from a
different perspective that it's,

it is actually all about
principles as you write rather

than a cookie katter formula,
because it's about understanding

how to spot things in the drinks
ecosystem.

And you know, as a, as a whole
ecosystem in the, in the world,

you know, with animals and
forests and deserts and so on,

there's different animals and
there's some animals are a

winner and other are losers now.
And you need to understand

because you don't know what kind
of animals are challenging you

in that ecosystem because it's
always changing and every day is

different.
So that's why I'm pushing this

narrative about the drinks
ecosystem because everybody's

like, do you have a, do you have
a distributor for Czech

Republic?
Do you have a distributor for

the US?
You know, like it, all the

questions I usually get are very
tactical.

They are very like, oh, I need
the provider on this.

Do you have a name?
I need the a brand manager.

Do you have any, you know, and
they're very broad questions.

So you know, what is it?
What are they looking for now?

And there's always this thing
that you can be shortcutted as

out there looking for growth.
You know, brands are looking,

everybody wants to scale,
everybody wants to grow, But how

do you grow in a sustainable way
and building a what you're

saying is that there is this
misconception that you only need

money to grow.
And, and a lot of people are

like, Oh yeah, I wish you, you,
you're speaking from your

pedestal because you've got
money, you know, because maybe

you are in whatever Bacardi or
porno Ricardo or, or pro forma,

but it's not about money.
It's about how do you use the

money and what you do with the
money.

That's absolutely true to
legends and icons of the

industry with you and the Ben
and I fully agree.

There is no one common playbook
that almost implies all brands

are in the same situation and
therefore there's one standard

cookie cutter approach which you
can give to everybody and say

just follow this.
That's not how it works.

Different brands are in
different stages in the drinks

ecosystem to use your
expression, so you need to come

up with a tailored approach.
Funding can be really helpful to

many people and can be a good
thing, but the great starting

point is asking yourself why you
need funding and what are you

going to do with getting the
money in when you get funding.

If you're successful at getting
funding is only the starting

point, then it's really about
how you deliver the growth, how

you deliver the expectations
that you've set up to get the

money.
And so that's in many ways the

challenge and the opportunity
begins once you get the money.

But starting off really being
clear why you need the money,

the right type of funding can
accelerate growth.

But there are growth
opportunities that you can have

without much money, especially
with the smaller companies and

brands that I work with.
That's the kind of focus.

What are the things if you have,
if you are capital constrained,

how can you grow in the right
way?

And there are opportunities.
A lot of it starts off with

strategy in them.
So now more than ever,

businesses have to really focus
on what's important.

You can't try to be all things
to all people.

Hope is not a strategy.
You have to be able to answer

really clearly the only two
questions that really matter

about strategy.
It's where are we competing and

how we're going to win.
When you have less money, you

have to be more and more
choiceful about the answers to

those questions.
So you have to really focus not

just in terms of target
consumers, target markets,

target bars.
You preach the principle of

brands being built from the
bottom up.

That's a principle, which is
probably always true, but in a

capital restricted world then it
becomes absolutely vital and

then how are you going to win?
You don't win by trying to be

all things for people.
It's impossible to be brilliant

at everything, especially in a
capital restricted world.

It's really about being
brilliant at a couple of things

and ideally being brilliant at
things that don't require a huge

amount.
I'm a great believer in

packaging and design.
That's one of the most important

and immediate forms of marketing
people online and in store and

in bars.
Your packaging should be telling

your story, beginning to tell
your story.

Your packaging should be
distinctive.

Now, the work on packaging and
brand design, there was a course

to that, but actually relative
to other investments, it's it's

relatively can be relatively
cost efficient.

And that's a great way of being
able to build your brand in a

selective way and tell your
story.

Leveraging a network.
People, you can work in

companies, you can work on
brands and people ultimately buy

from people.
So leveraging the network that

you have can be something which
is almost no cost to it is the

cost and time perhaps with no
kind of financial cost.

So there's a number of things
that people can do, but it does

go back to having a really,
really choiceful strategy and

then being consistent with that
strategy.

Your tactics can change in a
regular basis, but if you're

fundamentally changing those two
questions about where you're

going to play and how you're
going to win, then you get

inefficiencies.
You don't get the advantage of

the spend, the investment that
we've done before.

Consumers start getting
confused.

And one of the big challenges
that a lot of the big companies

have is the average 10 year old
marketing director of CMO is

getting less and less.
And natural tendency of CMO and

marketing director is they want
to change things, but that leads

to inconsistency.
It leads to a much poorer return

on investment.
So there's many, many

executional things you can do,
but a lot of it starts off for

me with strategy.
I remember, if I'm not mistaken,

that in a previous episode that
feels like ages ago, when you

were a guest, you were one of
the 1st guest on the show.

You were talking about the
strategies, what to focus on,

but more importantly, what not
to do.

Yes.
If I remember correctly.

That's absolutely true.
What not to do is a more

relevant, maybe it's a
challenging question, but but

you have to be very clear, we're
going to do X&Y, we're not going

to do all this other stuff and
getting alignment on that

amongst all your various
stakeholders is a really

important thing.
We're going to focus on this

consumer and these markets,
these bars in these cities.

And then if an opportunity comes
up that's completely different

to that, it's, well, we've set
note to that.

And unless we change the overall
plan, why would we do that?

We can't do that as well as
everything else because in a

world of scarce resources, you
have to prioritize.

So yeah, I really like the
question, what are we going to

say no to?
From a strategic point of view,

it's very easy to say yes.
But in my experience, the magic

often comes from when you say
no.

I agree and sometimes I mean
from my bottom up experience,

you often realize what to do by
removing all the things that you

are sure that you don't want to
do.

Yes, yes.
You know, there can also be an

approach.
Yes, definitely.

Yeah, it's a really good point
because this thing we're not

going to do X, we're not going
to be here, we're not going to

be there, we're not going to do
whatever.

And then what's left can help
you form your strategic, your

strategic choices.
And then it's really important

in them.
So because it guides your

execution.
I remember in a recent role,

I'll be a little bit discreet on
some names, but a major retailer

wanted the list one of our
expressions and we said no to it

because it wasn't part of the
strategy.

We also knew that we could get a
very strong initial order in

terms of pipeline volume, but we
hadn't the level of awareness,

the level of mental availability
that would support an ongoing

velocity.
But having a very clear strategy

allowed us to be able to say
it's an interesting opportunity,

but it isn't right for us.
This is one of the things we've

said at this point in time,
we're going to say no to as

opposed to somebody was going to
say yes to.

And the other thing about
strategy is it can be a sequence

thing.
So as the brat in 10 years time

on that brand, five years time,
it may be the strategy has

evolved and it might be
interesting to be in that

account.
But at that point in time, it

absolutely wasn't the strategy
and therefore it was a very easy

decision to say no to.
This is a fantastic point you're

raising because with a, with a
real example, I challenge myself

and I challenge my my clients
and the people that I work with

in the fact that there are some
kind of like low hanging fruits

opportunities that you may be
able to grasp and they may not

be in line with your strategy.
So everybody, I would say, more

or less would agree that you
have to stick to your strategy

until, you know, it's like Mike
Tyson used to say, you know,

everybody's got a plan until
they get punched in the face.

And this is exactly, you know,
everybody has principles until

they are faced with a challenge
that that principle drives, you

know, which is, for example, it
could be a slower growth because

OK, I can say yes to that
discounter and get a listing in

that place.
I would make quite a lot of

money in the short term maybe.
But shall I or shall I not, You

know, and what I usually say on
this, and I would like to hear

your view, is that I say,
obviously there's no black and

white.
There's always different angles.

But if you're not going to have
regrets later on from what

you've done today, but then you
may go for it.

But then if you know that this
is going to jeopardize your

future growth, your brand
health, your other things, then

stop and think.
I agree and our principle is

only a principle if it costs you
money, not tension between

balancing the long term and the
short term.

Especially in the current
climate when growth is

difficult, it is not easy.
I've lived to that.

It's really tough.
There can be some short term

tactical opportunities that come
up that don't devote you in

terms of resources and don't
have any long term obligations.

I always think about it as if
going into this customer now at

this point in the brand cycle,
is this going to help our medium

to long terms development?
And if the answer is is no, then

and I feel encouraged, we should
say no.

Often with these retailers, if
you go in too early, a number of

things can happen.
The classic kind of buyer and

shop work about how brands go,
you need to match the physical

availability distribution with
the mental availability, the

awareness.
If you go to physical

availability but not the mental
availability, you're not going

to sell.
If you've invested a lot of

money in the mental availability
but no distribution into my

places, then it's very
inefficient because you spent

all this money and nobody can
buy it.

So you do have to balance those
two things.

And if you go into that retailer
too early and don't sell, then

it's going to be very difficult
in 10 years time to be able to

go back to that retailer when
you've got much greater

awareness because they'll say,
Oh yes, 10 years ago, five years

ago we listened to and it didn't
work.

What does it say?
So you're very clear on your

route to market strategy and
then the sort of opportunity

comes up, what are your current
partners, your current

distribution partners kind of
think when you suddenly appear

in 506 hundred account of trade
accounts around the country.

So if it's going to jeopardize
the ultimate success, then no

matter how difficult it is, and
I really appreciate it's

difficult being there and I've
I've lived through it, you

should say no.
I have the feeling sometimes

that many of these issues come
from very kind of like dogmatic

approaches to business.
Now, whether you were, you know,

for example, you have been in a
previous company where you've

seen that something was working
and there is always this kind of

like defaulting to the playbook.
No, but it's, it's like in

investing, you know, it's like,
you know, past performance is

not a guarantee of future
performance.

And that should be, I don't
know, tattooed or at least

written all the kitchen fridges
in all offices.

We tend to, for example, hire
people on past performance.

We tend to do things on past
performance and, and I've, I've

seen it myself, you know, like
I, you know, with the team, you

know, I've, I've helped build
the Nordina Strazurro all around

Europe back in the days, you
know, and many other brands.

But when, for example, I left
corporate and I decided to go on

my own, I mean, even when I went
to Karlsberg, for example, and I

left Asahi and Sam Miller, I
thought that I had the magic

stick, you know, because I had
the Petroni playbook, you know,

who, who's going to challenge me
on, on the, the guy that work

with Pedroni for so many years,
you know, so, but then when I

went on my own and I launched my
own consulting, then I started

challenging myself because I had
all these learnings.

And then I said like, but this
doesn't mean anything, you know,

like, of course there are some
principle that I still adopt

today.
But at the same time, you cannot

plug and play.
There's no plug and play because

the ecosystem, the animals are
different.

You know, maybe for me was
wolves and foxes and now there's

a bear.
And it's very interesting when I

see whoever I talk to that I
have the feeling that there's

too much focus on this kind of
like dogmatic approach and

people are not challenging
themselves enough on their own

belief because.
Obviously you have a career

progression and then you'll get
more and more confident.

And then all of a sudden it's
like, you know, nobody has ever

challenged me.
Why?

Why should I challenge myself?
Well, that should be the thing.

But probably it's also driven by
some other facts that I'm, I'm

not going to spoil now, I want
to talk later, but what what's

your take on this kind of like,
do you feel this dogmatism in

the industry?
And I think it's a balance and

you described it very well on
your journey because there is

experiences in your journey that
you've picked up and knowledge

that you picked up that form
principles or at least allow you

to ask the right questions.
And that is a really valuable

asset to have.
It doesn't mean though that

there is a playbook and that the
Asahi playbook was exactly the

same with the people you work
with now because they're in at

different points in the
ecosystem.

And I think how you balance the
experience, which can be a good

thing, with not getting into a
dogma, which is a bad thing.

There's a number of things I
think you can do. 1 is it's

driven by your own attitude.
Every day is a school day.

I work with many incredible
people and I'm learning every

day now.
I know some of the good

questions.
I have some experience to add,

but you learn a lot from being
curious and one of your points

about sitting at the bar just
observing what's happening in

the real world, so much insight
you can get from that.

Also, surrounding yourself with
people who are prepared to

challenge you.
So you say something based on

your experience and then you
want to create an environment

where people are absolutely
comfortable, feel entirely safe

to challenge.
Well, I don't think that's right

now or that doesn't work in this
scenario.

We're not a wolf, we're a fox in
the ecosystem.

And so therefore we should do,
we should do something

different.
And I think you need to be open

and you need to have an
environment where you can

positively challenge yourself
and allow people space to

positively challenge you and you
positively challenge them on

their beliefs.
So you get the advantages of

working from their experience,
but are not restricted if they

move into dogma and not suit for
the people as well As for you.

And so I think that's a really
critical point, especially as

we're in this this stage of the
economic cycle that's tough for

many people.
Yes, because the industry hasn't

really changed that much for
decades, you know, and there is

this thinking about, OK, but
that's how it works, you know,

like we all more or less veteran
in the, you know, we've been

working with so many brands,
we've been working with so many

countries.
So that's what you do, you know,

and this is the challenge that
we have nowadays because like,

things are different.
I see it myself with the

podcast, with my business, with
different things.

Many things happen, you know,
stupid examples.

And I have things that did not
exist.

Instagram didn't have a
collaboration.

Add you as a collaborator so
that a reel that I share is

shared by you and by me
together.

When I launched the podcast,
that didn't exist.

If I didn't update myself on
taking the opportunity, on doing

that, I wouldn't have succeeded
on many things.

The way LinkedIn works, the
algorithms and all these things.

There was a guy that I was
following and I'm still

following.
He's always saying dismiss the

algorithm.
When it comes to LinkedIn,

Instagram, Spotify, whatever.
What doesn't change is how

psychology works.
You know, learn psychology,

don't learn the algorithm then
you know, the algorithm is

adapting itself to psychology.
Ultimately, it's not that people

are following the algorithm.
And sometimes, like I have this

feeling that with brands, we, we
get stuck into this old

thinking.
It's almost like denying our

past.
You know, it's like if I don't

do this anymore and I've been
doing it for the past 10 years,

you know, what are people going
to think about me or what are

the old employees and line
managers?

And you know what, what are
people going to think about me?

And there is always this thing.
And, and if we actually stop and

think and say actually, we can
really challenge things because

we don't know, honestly, you
know, there's certain things

that we don't know.
If you take, I don't know, guest

shifts, you know, are a new
thing, you know, like certain

type of activations are a new
thing, you know, and people

always try to assume, of course,
like we've, we know exactly how

this works.
And again, going back to the

trade, I'm, I'm having a bit of
a, you know, crusade at the

moment.
For example, when it comes to

activations, how can you create
an activation as a brand manager

if you don't go to that
activation?

You know, how can you sponsor a
guest shift if you haven't been

to a guest shift or if you are
not going to the guest shift you

are actually paying for, for
example?

And there are these things that
are so basic, but they get

sidetracked by life in corporate
or small companies.

There's yeah, so much to unpack
there.

Chris, I the way you described
it in terms of there are

principles and then almost there
are tactics.

I think is, is, is really true.
So with your podcast, why it's

so successful and a must listen,
the must view to everybody in

the in the industry, There's a
basic principle.

What you're doing is having
really interesting, relevant

conversations with interesting
people that are insightful and

add value.
And then that's that's the

principle of why it's such a
success tactics that looks like

being a collaborator on
Instagram.

They will change and you need to
be open to them to become more

efficient.
But it doesn't change the

fundamental principle of why
this podcast is such a great

success.
And I think that's true of

drinks brands too.
There are certain principles

behind the brand which shouldn't
change.

But I think how they bring those
principles to life and how they

engage with consumers will
change and should change.

And you need to be very, very
open to that.

I also really believe something
you said, which I think it's

just so empowering and so vital
is the importance of people

saying, I don't know as a leader
to be able to say, I don't know.

I don't know how we do this.
I know what we want to do, but I

don't know that is so powerful
to say that because it's true

because no one person can know
everything.

And even if you didn't know 10
years ago, you might know it

now.
But also encourages other people

to say that.
And the best discoveries

typically come when you don't
know something and you come up

with new solutions because you
don't know it.

But it starts with that openness
and that honesty to say, I don't

know it.
So I think that's kind of really

relevant.
And it does go back to the way

that we understand the world is
changing is by connecting with

the world.
It's not by reading about it or

being behind your desk.
It is genuinely engaging and

observing and what's happening.
And a lot of people are

challenged because they want to
go to a market.

But the people that do want to
go to markets might say, well,

it's very expensive going to
markets and there is a cost in

doing that.
But you can do as economically

as you want.
If you go to the back of the

plane, you can do it much more
cost effectively than perhaps is

traditional in the big
corporates.

But I would say that's one of
the most important investments

you make to be able to connect
with people in the important

markets that you've already
chosen.

I just started to where you need
to win in, then you need to

really be out there.
And as a leader, you can't just

rely on your team being out
there.

You also have to have some of
that insight.

You have to leave from the
front.

You have to be out there.
You have to be the person who's

speaking with the trade.
You have to be the guy who's

doing the work with.
So you have to be the guy

because that gives you
credibility because that gives

you insight.
And so that's really important.

So that connection with the real
world and being out there

admitting when you don't know
things and being prepared to

adapt your tactics about how you
print your brand to life is how

you win in a changing, volatile
world.

To build on what you say is the
ability to do a critical

analysis because very often I
hear people talking about this

motto that is becoming more
mainstream brands are build

bottom up.
And you know, like, but some

people allow, OK, but you are
saying it, but you're not

actually doing it.
You think you have a bottom up

plan, for example, but then it's
actually a top down plan,

readjusted, bottom up, and it's
not actually readjusted.

So if you ask me to do a bottom
up plan, but you're already

giving me the target, it's not a
bottom up plan.

Yeah, it's a top down, but
masked as a top down plan as an

example.
Now, the same thing with going

to the bar.
And I was like, but Chris, you

told me to go to the bar.
All the bartenders are telling

us that this product doesn't
work because of da, da, da, da,

da, da.
And it's like, yeah, but is it

really that the product is not
working?

Or is it that you are, for
example, explaining it badly or,

you know, building wrong
expectation?

There is this misunderstanding
about the word feedback.

You know, feedback is one thing,
but then what you do with the

feedback is another thing.
Yeah, No.

Morris told me to change the
lineup of guests.

Why?
You know, and then maybe fight,

have a conversation with
Maurice.

Then he understands why I
invited certain types of guests.

And then all of a sudden, you
know, maybe I, I just had to

explain it in a different way.
And now Morris actually agrees

with me.
Or maybe then we find the common

ground and understand, OK, but
then you shouldn't have these

two people.
You should have these two

people.
But then these other two people

are, are correct according to
you.

So there is always this, let's
say non filtering of

information.
Sales said that marketing told

me that, you know, the finance
wants this and it's like, OK,

but let's sit down and analyze
what we should do about certain

things.
Do you think that building on

this, there is an issue with
expectations?

What I mean is that I've seen so
many people that I've worked

with and I know that
theoretically they would agree

with certain principles.
And I know that my principles

and their principles are
actually matching.

But then in their action, they
don't follow their principles,

not because they hit the the
head on the wall, but because

maybe there's a dog chasing
them.

There is a wrong level of
expectations that is mismatching

people.
Yes, and that's very relevant

and many of us have lived to
that.

If you have the principle of
brand built from the bottom up,

but you have top down
objectives, then that's a very

uncomfortable mismatch.
And so having alignment on the

objectives and the plan is
vital.

And that goes back to the
capital point that if you have

to align the most all
stakeholders, what the

objectives are, sometimes if you
bring in lots of capital, then

the expectations are going to be
for top down objectives and top

down growth, which is not
consistent with brands being

built from the bottom up.
So getting alignment on the

objective and for me it's really
bad timing because most people

would have the same vision of
ultimately where they want the

brand to get to.
Most stakeholders in my

experience to the difference is
timing.

Some people would like to get
there very, very soon and we

don't like to get there very,
very soon.

But it doesn't tend to happen in
our industry.

This is still a slow moving
consumer goods industry.

From a spirits perspective,
which is the sector I know for

the best, A heavy purchaser of a
category is somebody who buys 1

bottle or two bottle a year.
So it's always really

interesting to remember that you
can be saying something very

relevant to people, but if
they're not in the market for

buying your category at that
point in time, then you're not

going to see the effect of that.
There is a lot of empirical

evidence that's been done by
companies like System One, which

is a marketing research company
that says across most

categories, 95% of your target
market aren't in the market for

buying your category at that
point in time.

And so only 5% of people are in
the market at that point in

time.
And with those 5%, what you need

to be doing is driving
transactions, but with the risk

to the value in terms of the
other 95% of our building

awareness and building equity.
So when they do come back in the

market, they do remember you.
And so that's a really important

insight to have, but get that
alignment between you can't have

part of what you do being top
down and part of what you do

being brands are built from the
bottom up.

There has to be alignment in the
system.

And I think the most challenging
thing can often be about just

the timings that you're looking
to have success in.

That's all for today.
I hope you enjoyed this first

part with Maurice Doyle.
It was a fantastic episode,

talking a lot about strategy,
the right allocation of

resources, the importance of
going out and seeing things in

the trade and being able to
filter those insights and

analyse them and make them ours.
If you can think of a couple of

people that would benefit from
listening to this episode,

please send it to them.
And remember to subscribe if you

haven't done so.
And if you could also rate the

show, that would help a lot of
people to to find it.

See you again soon and remember
the brands are built bottom up.