Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:01)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work,
what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky moves. So if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, it's Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today I'm talking with Katherine Quinn, who we both share an alma mater with. We went to SUNY Binghamton and both
improvised on the esteemed improv troupe, the Pappy Parker Players. Not together at the same time, but we are both alumni of that improvisational organization. So let's chat more less about improv and the Pappy Parker Players and more about Katherine. Katherine Quinn is a New York based writer and filmmaker whose work blends her passions for writing, acting, fashion, and music. She's a magna cum laude graduate of Binghamton University with a degree in English and cinema.
Her films have been featured in festivals like the Long Island Youth and the New York Monthly Film Festival. Katherine doesn't necessarily seek to make art that changes lives, but rather invites the viewers to recognize themselves in it in quiet moments of reflection and interaction and finding the universal in those small personal experiences. So what do we talk about? Yeah, we chat about like flat performances, stories without yelling, and characters who actually listen.
We also go into her love of the anti-climax and how she handles feedback and why she's born drawn to films that feel like poems rather than plot machines. I'll add more about Katherine in the show notes. She has an upcoming short film called 11 11. And you can follow her on Instagram at Katherine underscore MJ underscore Quinn and go to her YouTube channel at Katherine Quinn films. All that will be in the show notes. So here it is a fellow Binghamton university alumni and personal friend.
Mishu Hilmy (02:21)
Catherine.
Katherine Quinn (02:25)
So High Testosterone Cowboy Shootout, that was like an experimental one because I had just done so much narrative and I felt like experimental was like kind of my home. Like that's kind of where I learned filmmaking and I just sort of wanted to make it like in response to, I don't know, I feel like I love critique. I love getting critiques, but the critique I always hate is like that something was like anti-climatic or slow because like
A lot of times that's my intention, like to make something kind of slow or anti-climactic. So I kind of wanted it to build to like a purposeful nothing and it like for the title and the intro to be like misleading. And I kind of wanted people to like walk away feeling like angry or frustrated with it.
Yeah, well, I walked away very pissed. was like, what is this? is that? Yes, I do like one of the things that comes to my mind with some of your work is like pacing and intentionality around sort of pacing and slowness. So like, what's your relationship with, you know, lowness, pacing, maybe are arguably like artifice of like, you know, playing with time. So like, is that something you're experimenting with? Or you have a relationship with or aesthetic thoughts on?
What was that about?
Katherine Quinn (03:32)
I feel like I just like things that are very kind of slow moving and like calming and like peaceful. don't like to listen to music or watch films or like things that stress me out. And I think on like a personal note, kind of, you know, I have like a lot of background in acting and like I loved all my time acting, but I felt like I would always get typecast as these like comedic.
characters or like these like, thrill women that were just like a lot. And I just felt like I never related to them. And I always loved kind of playing characters that were very grounded. And so I like to write, you know, like I feel like all my films, like I would, any character in that would be like a joy for me personally to play, not to like toot my own horn, but I kind of just like, I like very grounded performances and very like slow moving plots where we can really like sit with characters and see what they're feeling.
Yeah, because I think it makes me think of, you know, the form or the modality of like slice of life, right? Because there's things that are experimental, there's things that are, you know, very narrative and kind of crafted and tight, you know, with value changes that are meant to change, you know, scene over scene. And then I think there's also another modality, like slice of life. Like, what is it about that least slice of life right now that you're, you know, drawn toward, even if there's the risk of it being, you know, too poetic or even boring?
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. think it feels more honest to me. I guess like my personality type, I'm very like relaxed. I don't really yell or argue. And so for me to write something like that just feels very like dishonest to who I am. So I feel like when things get tense, I'm very much the type to like sit back and survey. So.
I kind of just write stories that even the ones that are kind of have nothing to do with my life and are not about me in any way. I think the way that the characters handle conflict is very akin to how I would handle conflict.
Mishu Hilmy (05:35)
I can understand that. Yeah. So it's like, is there like a sense of integrity where for you, I heard you say sort of, you the honesty of it, like, this isn't how I necessarily interact with my day to day. like committing to that viewpoint, at least in your writing, is that is that challenging or is that freeing?
I don't know. I think I'm trying to challenge myself in writing things that are a bit more climactic. My upcoming film, there are some heights of emotion, but they're more feelings of happiness and excitement. I'm not particularly interested in, I know this sounds so, a lot of people will hate me saying this, but every time there's a fight scene in a movie, I fast forward it. It's just so uninteresting to me. I don't know, I don't really like.
people yelling at each other. Like, I don't know, don't enjoy stories where people get, because it just feels very predictable to me. I feel like it's less predictable for someone to like pull back and have like a simple conversation with someone. And it's more interesting to me to watch something like that.
I think it's an interesting challenge because yeah, there's what most people, also think it's like Aristotelian story structure, right? Like you need catharsis, what is it? Pathos, fear, catharsis, or fear, pathos, no, pathos, fear, catharsis, whatever it is, but it's like, you need to hit these points. And I think that is very Western and Aristotelian, but the relationship with the expression or depiction of conflict, I think that's like a challenge to navigate because it's like some argue that stories are about conflict. then how...
What is it if it's just people, you know, relating and empathizing? That's something I think about a lot. Like, can we have a story without sort of the pressure of these people got to get into like a fistfight and scream at each other?
Katherine Quinn (07:17.112)
Yeah, I mean, so like my last film, I did this thing called Filmmaker Soiree where I got to like speak on it in front of an audience. Generally very well received, which I was very like happy about and like not expecting. But I think something I talked about in that like talk back was like, think people want stories to have a point and want like a clear like conflict. And I think I personally watch films like I love one of my films is like
before Sunrise or Richard Benclater. Yeah, enjoy observing people having a conversation and the little moments that feel very real. That's more why I watch movies or why I read poetry and stuff. enjoy observing people discuss things, almost like a podcast, more so than a conflict and a story with traditional story beats.
I relate to that maybe too much because it's like my insecurities around I love very sort of verbal talky type narratives. And then the the insecurities like, well, shouldn't this just be a play or isn't this better as a podcast? Yeah, like my dinner with Andre, like, that seems like it was like a podcast from the 80s, which, you know, was turned into a movie. But yeah, so it's like dealing with that love of language or observation or people talking and maybe I guess I'm trying to project out is like, how are how are you dealing with
maybe your preconceived notions or outside preconceived notions of like, is filmic? What is, you know, image moving images and like how you fit within that if you're sort of outside the standard of like maybe what is traditionally, you know, a good visual medium or a good visual story.
Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I think about like possibly like directing a play because that's kind of I've done it before and I enjoy it. In some ways, like I enjoy directing a play a little bit more than I do directing like actors on screen. But I also feel like with a play, it's like you have to get a venue and you have to like have people to show up. I feel like with directing a film, I can just put it on video or like YouTube or enter it in a film festival and
Katherine Quinn (09:27.886)
people will already be there to see other films. So there's more of guaranteed audience, I think, with film. And think also you can capture micro expressions on camera and wave it. And then there's more room for subtlety, which I like. I don't know, I don't like performances that feel a lot.
That's what makes theater so strong and flexible is that style can be really broad or widened versus filmically. think style is a little bit more difficult to accept that face value unless you're like doing full blown camp or like sketch comedy or something. It's, think audiences are a little bit less forgiving on camera when it comes to really broad stylistic choices.
Yeah, wait, what can you like elaborate?
Like if you're I think the default to like images or movies or films is minimalism and realism. So that's sort of like the default of what's expected. So if you spent thousands of hours watching TV shows and movies, you become used to the standard of like minimalism versus as soon as you see an actor take a big swing or play something a little bit.
goofier or buffoonish, it rings as false versus on the stage. You can enter and watch a stage show and everyone's playing a certain style or a certain heightened language that you can accept more quickly than if suddenly you're watching a movie and someone enters and is just like doing a zany shoulder dance and they're talking like, yeah, what do you want? You're like, this feels fake.
Katherine Quinn (10:49.983)
But I think that there's also some films where it's like kind of like a directorial choice that like everyone is acting a certain style and I kind of tend to like that a bit more
I think it's a challenge. You don't see it as much because I think there's a higher risk of really big, even something like I just saw the monkey recently that was very, you know, stylized and kind of nihilistic in terms of performance.
Yeah, I feel like I much prefer like kind of a flat delivery as opposed, and even if it feels a little unrealistic, maybe it's because that's kind of how I speak. I don't know. I think it's more, I don't know, interesting like to have a stylized delivery in film.
Right. Kudos to that. I think I tried to share some thought of like, all the works I can look at and appreciate and enjoy and there's no value for me to be like, look at how sad or cringy that was.
Yeah, it sucks too. I think when I meet young filmmakers and they're getting on every little thing about their own work or other people's work, I don't know. I just don't quite understand that. We're all young and we're all getting better. It's important to be making something even if you don't have access to the greatest equipment or the greatest actors or the greatest crew. Just to have something out there is a success in itself as far as I'm concerned.
Mishu Hilmy (12:05.582)
Yeah, I agree. think it's like a volume game and it's like the perspective of what's going to prevent you from making more. I think adopting a perspective that's more sort of generous toward yourself and where you're at rather than just like expecting professional big top tier budget level expectations. It's just like an inhibitor and a bit of perfectionism because like you mentioned with theater, you need to book a space and have like X number of rehearsal weeks and then run in that space for X number of weeks. Well, the benefit of image making is
We have fairly accessible, affordable tools at the consumer level. But instead of having one location, you got to book like 10 locations or however many locations. So that's also a challenge. But still, you have at least the means to find a crew or find like, all right, this is my bedroom or this is my backyard or this is a friend's attic that we can shoot at and to do it joyfully rather than like, it's got to be perfect all the time. And then it just prevents you from doing anything.
Exactly. Yeah, I don't. I don't know. I also feel like I just try to be generous with other people because like I understand how hard it is to make a film like it is so hard. feel like you're seeing like a five minute movie and there was so many hours that went into that. don't know. It just sucks. wish people were more generous with themselves and with each other. And that doesn't mean like coddling other people like, but I don't know. I feel more like inclined to improve when I feel like
encouraged. But I also like want people to be honest with me. But I think there's a difference between like being honest and like being an asshole.
Yeah, yeah, mean, critique constructive, not constructive, you know, at hominem attacks, like it's all it's all I think, you know, meant to inject some degree of growth. like, who who earns or deserves the right to like, give you feedback and
Katherine Quinn (13:52.078)
This, my gosh, this. I don't know, it's just tough. It's definitely like a male-dominated medium and I think a lot of times, I don't like, you know, it's like I'm incredibly passionate about this too, so I get it, but sometimes I think men, like at least in experiences I've had, like get very excited and they like want to talk about this with you and like talk shop with you, but it's like, feel like sometimes they don't realize when they're like talking over you and you know, it sucks, it sucks for sure.
It's an industry of excited people and passionate people and yeah being talked at is a bit of a mind numbing especially like you know go to film festivals or networking events and some people are just like hey can I tell you about my script and then they're talking to you for like 47 minutes and you didn't get a word in edgewise maybe I'm just too polite maybe I got to start interrupting
I'm like that too. don't know. very like, I'm not that I'm always the type to like wait for a lull in the conversation to like jump in. And it's not even out of like timidness or any. I mean, it is. I'm not, I don't know. It's not like an insecurity. It's just kind of like, I don't have that kind of personality where I like want to talk over people. find it very tiring.
It's a good degree of self awareness. My internal logic is like, everyone knows conversations have a rhythm, right? We're just gonna have it like ping it ping pong back and forth. But then some people like, no, this is my turn to monologize.
Horrible and it's also like I hate to generalize but it's funny like I I've kind of caught this like as a woman I'm at a film festival or if I'm like on set I don't want to make this like a bitch again morning session
Katherine Quinn (15:24.76)
I feel like if I'm talking to a man about cameras or anything and then like it's a good conversation and then I just know the second another man joins I'm going to be like pushed out of the combo. It sucks but you can almost feel it happening. It's the worst.
That is frustrating. I also like the aesthetics of what's sort of, especially on set. guess, how do you like to, I have a lot of questions, but how do you like to manage your sets? I imagine they're pretty DIY, pretty small, not a lot of turnarounds. What's lately been your approach in terms of maybe dismantling the patriarchy in a sort of ego-driven set that most typical sets feel or look like?
Well, firstly, organization is everything to me. Timeliness is everything to me. And additionally, I never assume that everyone is comfortable with everything. It's important for me to check in with my actors and my crew. Does everyone feel like they're being, know, does anyone need a break? Does anyone need water? Does anyone need food? And also just personally, you know, when I've
been acting in the past. I've definitely worked with a lot of directors that sort of took for granted or didn't really, like they just kind of assumed that I would be comfortable with certain things. And me personally, I'm very like, I'm not a touchy person. hate like physical contact. just do. So in any scene where like, especially my last film, there's like kind of some more intimate scenes. I was very like on top of, you know,
making sure everyone was comfortable almost like to like a little bit of a crazy degree. Like they were like, we're good, we're good. But even just like the crew, was like, you know, when they're like, the actors are like kissing and touching. It's like, he's like, let's respect their privacy and like, let's not make jokes because I don't, I don't blame them. I think if you're not an actor and you're more like a boom pole type person, like, and you're not used to like, I, totally get like making a joke to like ease the tension. It's uncomfortable. But so I don't.
Katherine Quinn (17:24.781)
I necessarily fault people for laughing or trying to make a joke about it, but I also want it to be understood that even though a lot of us are friends and a lot of us are young, it's never just assumed that we're all comfortable.
Right. Being on set can be a challenge, especially if there's like a variety of like personalities and like interests, professionalism levels too. And I think like, especially when you are working with people who've worked together, who are a little bit more friendlier, there's a dynamic that can become almost too, too friendly where you're making jokes that are like this, you wouldn't make this joke in a, in in like a corporate job setting. And I get like part of the joy of filmmaking is like you're around fun, talented, funny people. But it's something I'm aware of too of like,
trying to know which like which levels of jocularity or comedy are admissible in any given, you situation.
I like I'm always gonna err on the side of professionalism. think I really like to kind of have my director hat and have my friend hat and I'm very different when I'm directing people. I always keep a healthy distance. And I think on my last shoot, did try to make it a priority to, because it was kind of like my biggest shoot I'd done. We had some great cameras and it was really exciting, very high quality. I wanted also to kind of prioritize.
like play and like having fun in a way that I'd never done on any of my other sets. Like I think a lot of my other shoots, it was like all business, at least on my end. know, everyone always, you know, I always debrief with my actors and crew and pretty much all of them, everyone is like, you know, said that they felt respected and comfortable and they had a fun time. But I felt like, not that I didn't have fun, but I was always like in director mode. And this past one, I think I, we really had a fun time on it.
Mishu Hilmy (19:09.422)
Sometimes like doing all the prep work helps at least me be a little bit more present and have fun on set. But I think when you are sort of producing and directing and UPMing at a lower budget level, it's like, it's hard to not just feel the weight of, all right, let's get this through. But I'm glad to hear that you're like able to at least be mindful of presence or fun. Because I think to a degree, like what's the point of doing this thing if I'm like dreadful or miserable or not present on set.
For sure, and I think a lot of it was that my last shoot, most of my shoots, but especially my last one, I really just fully trusted my entire cast and crew. I just felt like I really trusted that everyone would be there on time, everyone knew what they had to do, everyone was taking it seriously. And so I didn't feel like there were any liabilities and I could just relax. And it's also like I've done it, I've done a bunch of short films at this point, so I kind of know the drill.
Right. think you've been pretty prolific these past few years. And I think I saw one of your maybe vlog styles videos on YouTube where I like the spirit of like, these are exercises, right? So I wonder if you want to maybe speak to like, how has that been a sort of how has that approach been for you as like, each of these is an exercise rather than look at Magnus Opus.
Yeah, I feel like that's kind of what keeps me going. I think a lot of people can be kind of like paralyzed by this need to create their magnum opus or like kind of create something amazing. And I'm proud of everything I've made, but I'm also like trying to, you know, just view them. I think if you kind of put less pressure on yourself and just view them more so as like, you know, experiments or exercises, you feel like you also don't feel this like
attachment to it. Like, if someone like, like rips it to shreds, you're not like, my God, like, that's my baby. Like they're tearing it apart. Like I think that's kind of why I invite critique so much is that like, okay, this is my exercise in lighting. This is my exercise in framing. Like got fire away. And I kind of get excited. Like when people point things out that like are wrong with it, because then it's like, I can bring that to the next one. And kind of looking at it as opportunities for growth is really fun.
Mishu Hilmy (21:19.342)
I think it also like depressurizes it to like I think I sometimes lose track of the spirit of experiment or the spirit of exercises because I think that was more of my approach of like, this is going to be a black and white verbal comedy. This is going to be a nonverbal thing. This is going to be a 60 second this thing or this is going to be all one location. And I think that like helps you. I imagine like piecemeal what excites you about the process and develop that confidence so can like organically build into something. So like for this most recent
project of yours? Was there a driving exercise or experimental point of focus?
I've viewed so many of them as exercises for so long that my first kind of narrative film that I made was called Pink Ring. it's my first one. So obviously it's like the worst quality. It's the worst on all cylinders, but I still love it so much. I watch it and I get so excited. There's fun music. There's just fun shots. There's so many fun things happening. There's like trillion locations and kind of the rest were...
very contained, like one to two locations, one to two actors. And I was like, like I miss, I miss having like an extravaganza. So this one, we've shot it in like three or four locations. There's four actors. So yeah, I kind of wanted to bring it back to all of them had been like experiments or exercises in very specific things like lighting, framing, writing, et cetera. But this one was more like kind of how I said I wanted to like.
play. Like this was more about writing something really fun that we were all like really excited for. Like we were all so and it was just so nice. Like everyone was so hyped for this project. Like all the actors, all the crew, you know, I had the help of another Papi alum Zach Myers. He let us use all his gear. He was so generous. So it's like it looked like so Chris and I'm just like, I think kind of like my first one, it's going to be something that I'm just excited to like watch and rewatch and totally feel proud of it.
Mishu Hilmy (23:20.558)
I think like making that be an intention, right? Like this one is a play. Sometimes I'll like joke with myself. I'm like, maybe this next one is like a prestige piece where it's like, I'm trying to like go for a big swing and you know, it's maybe not. No, there's still play there, but it's like knowing that this intention is more of an experiment. This is an experiment in play. This is an experiment in like trying to put all the tools together to something more prestigious or trying to do a festival run. But at the end of the day, it's like I can't control whether people like it or not. So it's like I can only control.
how I feel coming into it.
that's very interesting to hear you say that you kind of go into it thinking it's going to be like a prestige piece because I feel like maybe it's like my own like naivete. I feel like going into each of my projects, I, I wrote them and I directed them and like, was like, that was good. That was good for me. But it's always a shock to me how they're like received by people. The ones like there's one on YouTube that's gotten like 5,000 views, which is kind of like a lot for me. And it's gotten into a
handful of film festivals. I love it. I love all my work, but I don't really understand why that particular one was the one that kind of resonated with people. I don't know. I find that funny. feel like it's always shocking to me how they're received.
more I try to let go of like, will this resonate? Will this be relevant to anyone in any given day? Like if I let go of that, it makes it a lot easier because it's like, all I can take care of is what I think is interesting and how I make it interesting. And then maybe it gets 32 views, maybe it gets 32,000 views. So it's like, I try to like be gentle and let go of the, the, you reception.
Katherine Quinn (25:05.742)
For sure. Yeah. I feel like that's always like the weirdest part is like seeing like even just kind of looking at like the YouTube analytics on my channel of like which ones have the most views and which ones have the least. It's always like, that's interesting. And then I'm also like, how do people find those? Like the ones, some of my videos have like so many views and it's always odd to me. I feel like this one I'm really gonna like my upcoming one, I'm really gonna try to like.
Because Zach, who was the DP on it, was saying, why don't you wait until, you know, enter it into some film festivals and see how it picks up before you put it on YouTube. So I think for this one, I'm going to try to see if that works.
Yeah, yeah, it's like it's like learning those different sort of distribution models, especially at the shorts level because like for me sometimes I'm impatient. It's like, all right, I'll just drop it on, you know, reels or tick tock or on YouTube versus the more traditional route slash prestige route is okay. How many laurels might this one get? I just spent six, 12 months on the festival waiting game and now I'm dropping it on YouTube like a year later. It's like a different kind of muscle.
but the intention is still like no one can steal the fun and joy you had on set. But less on set, I'm curious, I imagine you edit most of these. So what's your relationship with post-production, especially with this newer one, you probably have a different workflow given that it's not your cameras and new types of maybe raw camera footage that you might not usually work with. what's been post?
My last three I've really like sat with and taken a lot of time when editing them. And at first it just made me so like, like anxious. Like I hate just like having this timeline, like sitting on my computer. It's not out there in the world. don't have proof that I'm like hustling. I don't have proof that I'm like working. I think my, upcoming one, I'm giving myself a deadline of August, but now I'm kind of playing with the idea of like maybe I
Mishu Hilmy (26:45.911)
Yeah.
Katherine Quinn (27:00.886)
edit this for a whole year. don't know. I don't that idea makes me like want to die. But I don't know what's what's kind of your take on that.
I'm very impatient, the editor. So it's like, just want to do it. Like what I love is like, I'll watch all the dailies. So I'll just like sit down and like, if it's three hours of footage or whatever, know, we got 40 minutes from that day. I'll just sit down and watch like 40 minutes as if it's like on a steam back, like just back to back. So then I can see everything from start to finish versus scrubbing through. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, then I can like also like market and I'm like, oh, you know what? There's a weird moment after the tail slate that we can actually steal this expression, even though it wasn't
I can tell.
Mishu Hilmy (27:39.618)
part of performing. I love it. So like number one editing is like being very familiar with the footage and if I have the luxury of time, but overall pretty impatient. Like I don't think I would have the nerve to wait a whole year on anything. Also like at least on a short, like maybe on a feature project if I was editing it myself. So yeah, I like going pretty quick on cuts and then learning to let go and find other editors. It's something I, I, will enjoy. yeah. Yeah. One day I believe in you. Yeah.
I'm done now.
Katherine Quinn (28:05.174)
when you get to like go-
I've thought about getting like a color grader for this one just because I don't want to butcher the footage but it's like so nice. But then I'm like, that not my work then? I don't know.
Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (28:20.334)
Yeah, I mean, there's a bit of ego there. I think it depends on the project, right? Like I did baby steps for me. Like I had a 60 second thing that I shot that I was like, okay, I will let someone edit this because that's easier for me to let go than say like an 11 minute thing. But once I saw their edit on like the 60 second project, I was like, oh, okay, this is better than what I could have conceived. You think? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Really? Yeah. So it's like learning that.
You don't feel like even if it was like a really talented editor who's like amazing like you don't feel like it's like they're not I don't know what the risk is sounding like pretentious like it's like that's not the idea in your mind or like that's not how you saw it
it. I think that's why took the collaboration. that's yeah, it's like, I think it's a zero sum thinking of like they made the edit and that's it versus it's a relationship. So it's like much like how you'll direct an actor to, know, pick up the pace or slow things down. It's the same thing with someone who's editing where it's not theirs. And it's, you know, you can claim authorship because it's you know, you're still putting your directorial vision. it depends on
which editors you work with. I think that's what helps alleviate the sense of like, this is no longer mine. You could argue that it was never yours because of the nature of it being so collaborative. So that's more of an ego thing. But yeah, I think it's easier when you just I had like three or four rounds of revisions and we just like talk through each round more edits. And that made it feel like this was a shared piece of work. But I get the sentiment like, no, this is I'm no longer the filmmaker. The editor is the filmmaker. This is actually there is that I was just the person who captured the footage.
I feel like the film is really made in the attic.
Mishu Hilmy (29:53.102)
Oh yeah, mean it's my favorite, I love post production. And also if you need a colorist, can, you know, play around and we do a supervised thing or whatnot. Yeah, it's an interesting thing to let go of, but I imagine when you find a project that you're willing to like experiment with, go for it. Or not, maybe that's also your thing, where it's like you edit your stuff.
I might take you up on that.
Katherine Quinn (30:13.484)
I think it's hard, kind of taking your hands off, like letting Jesus take the wheel. Like, I know. I've gotten more comfortable with it, but I don't know. don't know. I feel like it has to feel like my movie, but I also I've gotten like my early, early work that like I've since like it's now private on YouTube. It's like I acted everything. I shot it. I edited it. I did everything. And now I feel like I don't like to be like.
the face of it so much. would rather like, you know, direct actors and kind of have someone else hold the camera. I've gotten more secure with it, like not always being like me doing everything.
Yeah, I mean, would pitch as an exercise, right, like a two pager that you're like, this project's for me not to edit. Like if you're in the spirit of experimenting, like something that's deliberately and see how what that relates to. But it's like, again, like the impatience is like, if I do it, I could probably do it cheaper and maybe a little bit quicker. And that's where I also get impatient.
Yeah, I might end up doing that of like just writing a quick thing and then having someone else edit it. I feel like that could be fun. And then it's also like low stakes enough that it's just two pages. like writing short scripts. I feel like I like to just always be writing something and always like turning something around. maybe it's bad that I don't think I, know, everything's very intentional, but I don't, I'm not like, like developing the same script for a year.
I just want to like always have my hand in something, you know, always be making something, you know, I feel like it's just kind of, I don't know, like I hear about people where like, like I have friends who come to me and they're like, oh, like I'm trying to think of an idea of something. And I'm like, I don't know, like why not just write like a three person, like around a dinner table and we shoot that in a night. Like we could, like, I don't know.
Mishu Hilmy (32:02.574)
Yeah, yeah, it's like, I think it's like fair perfectionism and prestige where it's like, it's got to be better. This has to be like good and big and important versus like, it's better to probably do like 30 projects over five years that are short, fast, fun and like experiments than to do one project over three, five years that you didn't get enough reps in. now all your flaws from your first project isn't coming in.
Exactly. No, yeah, I completely relate to that. feel like from my first piece to like my current, all like, it's the growth is like very fun to watch. You know, I feel like if I sat here like biting my nails, writing like one like feature for the past like two years that I've been taking, doing all these shorts, like I would be so disappointed because that's so much pressure to put on like one project.
Right. Do you find that you have thoughts or feel a pressure of like, need to grow into a feature or move into something longer, more substantial, or are you pretty, pretty good at not pressuring yourself like, well, I should be working on, you know, a sexy feature.
I people ask me that a lot. I have an idea for a feature, I don't know. I think I've always just worked better in short form. feel like since I was young, I always felt like if we had an assignment in school to write a paper, mine would always be well under the word count, but I always felt like I said everything I needed and wanted to say. I don't know, I feel like even in film class in school, I would always have to be just using random footage to fill the time.
feel like I just have always worked better in like short form.
Mishu Hilmy (33:35.768)
Right. And then like given I imagine it's part of my own projection, but like your work is more on the experimental side. like how have you been sort of going about either defining what's success to you or, you know, relationship with each each project?
Yeah, I mean, think to me, I think success is kind of like, shifting, I guess, because it used to be like, I don't know, I love this quote by Rick Rubin where it's like, just having finished product is a success. In the beginning, in the beginning when I wrote and directed Pink Ring, like that movie, like it is not well lit, it is not well shot, it is not well edited, it's not well anything. But that was like a success for me. Like I did that and like, hell yeah. I don't know, I think.
Now I have a lot of finished products and I think success is more so like honing my craft and kind of like applying critique and actively like choosing to better myself. Cause I think it's getting to a point where if I continue to like just make a lot of the same mistakes I was making in the beginning, it's like, you can have a million finished products, if you're not like progressing, how successful are you really?
Right. Because I think it's like a growth mindset or a self-awareness mindset because there's arguably a compulsion or, you know, I've seen some filmmakers who do this. like they're just making stuff and that's fine. But it seems of like the same sort of or a very similar degree of stasis rather than, you know, looking at your body of work and thinking, how do you want to grow with it versus, guess, being satisfied with just this is what I do. I make these things and they're they're very similar over and over again.
Yeah, I I think a lot of my films are like similar in terms of like content and like themes, but I'm always trying to up the ante every single time. I never want to like, you know, like, we're to do it exactly how we did it last time. I feel like we've got to look at the shortcomings of the previous project and kind of apply, apply critiques to the next one, you know, especially like my upcoming one. I really like they feel like I pulled out all the stops on that one and
Katherine Quinn (35:38.412)
left no stone unturned in terms of like, you know, everything I had to do on it. Yeah, I'm really excited for that one.
Yeah, I mean, it's like, it's a sort of growth of I just remember the excitement I felt from shifting from like, I'm the cam op and the boom op and it's just me and Oscar and then to go like, well, I got a DP and they got a focus polar and it's just like finding to celebrate that that growth and the challenges you put, you know, for toward yourself.
Yeah, and it's also like very unrealistic to expect a good product when you are doing everything, you know? You look at like, like, I don't know, I think it was a really rude awakening for me when I got into my first film festival and, you know, I got into, you know, I was very proud of myself and I, it was just me and two actors, you know, I wrote it, I shot it, edited it, I put it every, like I did everything on it. I did everything, it was just me, like, was like credit was me. And then I watched other people's films.
The credits.
Katherine Quinn (36:34.39)
and it was like rolling for like 60 seconds straight of just names. And I was like, ugh, like I could have been using all the resources at my disposal. you know, it's like, there's something to be said for like getting into film festivals with something that you made entirely on your own with no help from anyone. But it's also like, it's not, it's not really like a flex that you don't ask for help when you could have, and you could have had three times the film that you made.
Yeah. In the totally. Yeah. I mean, it's like it's just something to like kind of clock and go, this is maybe something I struggle with or, you know, it's not a flex to be like, I'm doing all the hats. Do you find that like at the time is probably just like that's where you were at the time. But are you more mindful of like resources or, you know, the importance of delegation or, you know, building out a crew rather than being sort of the end all be all yourself.
I know, again, like I didn't feel, yeah.
Katherine Quinn (37:29.686)
Yeah, think my most recent one, I was really open to suggestions. And I think kind of I had my biggest crew on that, but I still feel like it's very much my own and kind of my rule of thumb with like is there are certain things in a project that I set out to do from the jump. Like I want this character to be this way. I want the set to look like this. I want the lighting to look like this. Right. But if someone brings up a point that I hadn't considered, I'm always going to listen and take it. But if it's like,
they're giving me something that's kind of pushing against my original vision. I'm always going to stay true to what I set out to do. But I think I've only gotten to that point because I've kind of directed so many shorts that I feel confident in like asserting myself.
you know, director's job is to have an opinion. And the more times you practice having an opinion, the easier it is when you're on set to go, I see what you're saying about kind of this backlight and, you know, trying to make it better. But actually, I don't want to backlight it. just want it. I just want it to look like this for a reason.
For sure. Yeah. I think on my last one, think something I really tried to advocate for myself on was like kind of the, the slowness of it. want to like test their attention and like see, you know, how long we can like sit with a static shot. That's not doing anything. It feels more immersive to me.
a stylistic choice or a sort of a tonal choice or an aesthetic principle to kind of explore. You know, I think of something like drive my car, which is, three hours of really, you know, patient, you know, slow, slow, you know, relationship stuff. And it's just kind of there and to experiment and explore that. And you got to make a case for it or not make a case for it or set the expectations of like, this is what this thing is. And, you know, hiring actors who are
Mishu Hilmy (39:15.918)
okay, doing this thing and DPS who are like on board to, you know, play with a slowness. And that's something that you would need to, know, you'd probably have to advocate for as the person creating the vision or, or pitching it. But in the film festival environment, I'm curious, like, how did you deal with, comparisons? Like, how are you navigating your own comparisons? Because I think film festivals are very easy environment to sit down and go, wow, they had 20 people on this thing. And it looks like it costs a 50. Yeah, it's like,
For sure.
Katherine Quinn (39:42.75)
dollars
What's your relationship with comparisons? How are you taking care of yourself?
I loved everyone's work that I saw and I mean that in complete earnest. thought it was just really cool to see people are doing what I'm doing and they're passionate about it. I felt like little bit like my festival piece was kind of different. So it was like comparing apples and oranges. I felt like a lot of the festivals I got into, the second one I was in was like, they were more similar to mine, but the first one it was like, it was a lot of action movies or action shorts or like,
fast-paced. Mine was like a silent movie that was like four minutes long. It was the shortest one in the festival and I was like definitely like comparing my work in the sense that like I realized how I think the biggest like rude awakening I had was like I have a lot more tools at my disposal than I realized and that other people are taking advantage of that I should be taking advantage of.
Yeah, is that like a little bit out of fear of like, you know, I'm afraid to make a request. This is also me projecting like, I can't how dare I ask people to work on this idea.
Katherine Quinn (40:53.198)
little bit of that and also a little bit of like, do I really want to commit myself to something and like, I pour out, I, you know, if I crowdfund or I like, in all these equipment or I get like a crew that has like professional credits, it's like I'm really committing to something and it's not just a hobby anymore.
And I feel like it was for so long, was so much safer for me to just, I would treat it very professionally, but I would also kind of act towards family and friends as though this was like a hobby of mine. Just like, this weekend I'm shooting a movie. And I felt like, you know, my last film, was very professionally shot. like, you know, I feel like doing that, you're kind of like taking a little bit of a risk, like kind of like calling yourself a filmmaker. Like it feels a little bit like pretentious or like, you know, you take that or like,
Like my bio on Instagram is like film director, it's like a female form of director. it's like, that's so like annoying and pretentious, but it's like, that is what I do and that's my passion.
There's always that degree of like self preservation and maybe self deceit or it's like, I'm just this is just a thing I like I'm just like a hobbyist out of like politeness and not wanting to own the thing that you're like currently passionate about but I'm also like very against nouns like, you know, referring to myself as like the noun of the thing versus like the verb. So I prefer, know, I, know, I think I'm directing, I write, I produce, I make
I'm direct.
Mishu Hilmy (42:21.358)
know, shorts, that's easier for me to get over the self consciousness because like, yeah, to be like, I'm in this prison of the noun, I don't particularly enjoy because I associate it with all the, you know, the trappings and the preciousness which I, I don't like.
I that. I feel that way sometimes, but it's also like, it's like kind of a strange anecdote, but I'll circle it back, I promise. I don't know if you know, do you know like the rapper Lil Pete? He had, got a, well, when he was starting out, he got a face tattoo and people were like, why did you do that? That's so extreme. You can never work like a regular job again. And he's like, well, that's kind of the point. Like, I got this tattoo.
on my face because I can never work a regular job again. It forces me to pursue music wholeheartedly. So feel like for me, presenting myself as a director, I can't really treat it like a hobby. I have to whole hog it. So I get both perspectives, using the verb versus the noun. And I make a case for both, wanting to use both in my life. But I think where I'm at right now, think kind of
Like I cringe when I like see that in my bio, like director, like, that's so annoying. But it's like having that there and for the world to see kind of forces me to like take it seriously.
Yes. Yeah, I think to claim it, I even think in like, I believe, atomic habits, James Clear, it's like there's some arguments that claiming the identity if you if you claim the identity of like, I am, you know, I'm a gym rat or I'm an active person, you're more likely to embody it like I eat healthy. So it's like, yeah, if you claim certain things, I'm a director, you're more likely to do things that
Mishu Hilmy (44:01.208)
kind of habitually draw you toward directing. think maybe it's just like your awareness of the label. Is this serving you to like be consistent or is this serving you to like create more fear of like, no, if I don't do it, I'm not this or I'm not doing it correctly.
Yeah, I feel like for me at least, like assuming the label, like, it forces me to like, it forces me to be confident about it. Like, I feel like people ask to see my work and I can't be like, well, it's like very rudimentary. Like, is, it's shot on like a copy camera, but it's like, I can't be that way when presenting my work. You know, it's like, you have to present it with complete confidence. And I think kind of claiming that title forces me to be a bit more confident about what I'm doing and pursuing.
Totally. What's your relationship to, guess, risk taking? Where do you inject risk versus just doing things out of rote behavior? I'm just trying to wonder what's your level of subversion or riskiness? How intentional is that when it comes to your point of view or your perspective or your approach to things?
think it's really important to me. think I'm always gonna take a big swing and even if it doesn't pay off, I can at least tell myself like I took a risk there and I put it out there. It's pretty much all my work. It's like out there for the world to see. And I think that's how we grow because even if people don't like they like it or they don't like I'm getting feedback and I think it's you know, it's like the the Charlie XCX lyric where she's like you're always this is my like Gen Z like
horrible. But the Charlie XDX lyric where she's like, you're always going to lose to people playing safer. You know, it's like, I feel like you take a risk, you either like lose hard or you win big. And I would rather like lose hard a million times for like the chance of winning big than like, just playing it safe.
Mishu Hilmy (45:47.438)
makes for more adventurous life and maybe even a funner time. Also, maybe not. Maybe there's more heartache, but I'd rather enjoy the heartache as well. sure. I imagine you do a fair amount of the writing. How do you approach the choice of, am committing to this thing? I've written a whole bunch of ideas, but this one, I'll commit to shooting it over the next three, six, 12 months.
It's whatever feels the most exciting to me. I always have like million scripts in the works, but I think whatever feels like, yeah, this one I just shot, I was just really, really hyped about it. It was in all these cool locations. We shot it in an arcade, we shot it in a bar, we shot on a bridge. It was just a lot of props and fun things that I just felt like I'm gonna get a kick out of shooting this. The DP is gonna get a kick out of shooting this. The actors are gonna just...
got a kick out of like sinking their teeth into this character. So I think, I think it was like, was excited about it and I knew other people would do too.
That's great. And then like given how sort of uncertain the industry is, like what's your relationship to uncertainty? What keeps you motivated exploring this industry?
think like my youth, I think I'm so young and you know, it's okay right now for things to be uncertain. I think maybe if I was 10 years older than I am and I had a spouse and children, I would be horrified by the uncertainty. But I also feel like I would rather just give this my best shot right now and fail miserably and be able to like look back at in 20 years and be like, least I gave my passions like the greatest chance I could have.
Mishu Hilmy (47:23.446)
Great. Well, yeah, thank you so much for sharing, Catherine. And it was a delight getting to talk.
Thank you so much, I really appreciate it. I appreciate you having me.
Mishu Hilmy (47:37.486)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief motivation.
Already some prompts, some mischiefs, some nonsense. Maybe I'll throw two at your way to break the format. So here's two inspired by the things Catherine and I would chat about. So this one is about stylization and stylized a monologue. So yeah, stylized monologue with a flat delivery. Record yourself or maybe a friend reading a short monologue as flatly or as minimally as possible. Then rewatch it and notice what kind of emotional odor undertones might come through.
And bonus, try it with the same text in two opposite emotional states. This allows you to play around with exposure and seeing how subtlety informs and influences interpretation. And the next one is write a conversation without conflict and maybe a monologue with the out conflict. See what that's like. But here's a prompt around just doing a two-person dialogue where no one raises their voice, nothing major is at stake, and yet still seeing if you can find emotional movement.
Let the tension sit in the subtext and what's unsaid. So yeah, try it. There's something to be said about constraint-based creativity. And if you want, write a two-person scene where there's no conflict. Avoid the Aristotelian desire to make sure all stories are about conflict. There's also something called slice of life. So write a slice of life scene, no conflict, and see how that goes for you. All right, I'm rambling.
Thank you for listening this far and I hope you enjoy doing tiny, tiny little things to stretch yourself creatively or not creatively. Live your life and I'll stop talking. Have a good
Katherine Quinn (49:39.758)
you