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Join NABR in partnership with Corp! Magazine for our CEO & Executive Thought Leadership Series, where Jennifer Kluge sits down with C-Suite Leaders to get their insight and expertise.
NABR is a service organization igniting greatness in companies and their people.
00;00;00;03 - 00;00;13;05
Jennifer
Hello everyone and welcome. With me today is Mike Novakowski is the CEO of EV Construction and he's been a CEO and entrepreneur for over 30 years. Welcome, Mike.
00;00;13;07 - 00;00;15;26
Mike
Thank you Jennifer. Glad to be here.
00;00;15;29 - 00;00;26;26
Jennifer
Now, a little bit more about you before we begin, I understand that you're in a, three year Harvard Business School, senior leadership program.
00;00;26;28 - 00;00;53;25
Mike
Yes. In fact, I finished that up, just before Covid and and actually. And that was an unbelievable journey where, you know, I got to spend time, three years on campus, to, earn a, ability to graduate and walk across the stage. And, some of those people, they're just incredibly talented. I mean, when you have a professor that actually people stand and applaud at the end of their, session, that's pretty amazing.
00;00;53;27 - 00;01;14;03
Jennifer
That's fun. That's fun. Plus, it's Harvard. I mean, you can't go wrong with Harvard, right? No. You've been, in the best and brightest companies work for a program for quite some time. You've been a winner for 14 consecutive years. I know you've won at the national level. You're a multiple year elite winner. It's just incredible what you've done with your organization.
00;01;14;03 - 00;01;16;28
Jennifer
And, we're just so grateful to have you today.
00;01;17;00 - 00;01;35;13
Mike
Well, thank you. And I you know, I owe so much to the band, right? This program and, I am a huge advocate, raving fan. And anybody that's ever considered, whether they should, put themselves into that program or not, I urge them to, to jump in, you know, head first.
00;01;35;15 - 00;01;52;16
Jennifer
Well, thank you, thank you. We I know we've all learned a lot over the years through this program, and you've been so gracious to share your knowledge. And that's one of the reasons why we we're bringing you on today, for this live, is to talk a little bit about some of that knowledge so that you can share with others.
00;01;52;16 - 00;02;02;08
Jennifer
But before we begin, tell us a little bit about EB construction. What kind of work do you do? What industries you take the work on? Tell us a little bit more in detail.
00;02;02;10 - 00;02;22;22
Mike
Sorry I lost you for a second there with audio. You know, we're we're, 75, actually, 77 year old contractor who really, grew out of a design build post-World War two, working on the lakeshore in Holland, Michigan for, a good part of our existence. And about 15 years ago, and I'll give credit to the best and brightest.
00;02;22;22 - 00;02;43;26
Mike
We were able to expand significantly in our talent pool to serve people nationally. And what was once, a regional operation out of Holland that we might have served the state of Michigan. We're now in probably 18 to 25 states here. And our work outside of the state, is two times that of the in in state. We do a lot of health care, senior living.
00;02;44;02 - 00;02;59;24
Mike
We do the traditional commercial construction, industrial construction. We have a lot of clients that have, you know, hundreds of facilities that we now are being brought, with them as their key partner throughout the States because they they see that we're showing up in a much different way than most of our counterparts.
00;02;59;26 - 00;03;21;11
Jennifer
Wonderful. Well, congratulations on your growth. And I have a feeling it has a lot to do with you. Hello. So, give us some insights. You know, this industry that you are in has been hit, rather hard by supply chain issues during the pandemic. It, it's what I call one of the leading, industries to tell the rest of us what to expect over the next few months.
00;03;21;11 - 00;03;28;13
Jennifer
Tell us what's going on right now and what would you caution other CEOs about industry conditions or how is it going?
00;03;28;15 - 00;03;47;23
Mike
Well, you know, for those who are thinking about capital programs, big spans, obviously interest rates are going up. That's a challenge. We had certain materials in our industry that have gone up 100% in one year. And that's really hard because we have to reconstruct and service department that basically will take the project that you want to build.
00;03;47;28 - 00;04;09;05
Mike
We'll put numbers on it, and it might take you six months before we break down, and our numbers can be significantly off now. So, you know, it's it's, take advantage of the work as quickly as you can get in the ground is one thing. But then, on the other hand, what used to take 8 to 12 weeks to get structural steel for buildings now can be 8 to 12 months.
00;04;09;07 - 00;04;45;03
Mike
People like Amazon fulfillment centers who are building these multimillion square foot facilities and are building dozens of them have bought up all the capacity in the steel plants. So we're we're left to, you know, fend for our own, projects through mom and pop shops and things. So it's getting really complex. The other thing that's really just, exacerbated based on, you know, current economic conditions is we already had an issue with labor in the construction industry, you know, the skilled trades, the people that knew how to do this beautiful work, these these craftsmen are retiring at a very fast rate.
00;04;45;05 - 00;05;08;27
Mike
The baby boomers are, you know, ending their careers. And we do not have the young, people interested in coming in the trades. So we're kind of getting hit with, a, a great impact on material costs. And also, as most people are struggling with labor to just find their talent. So today, I don't think our company is anywhere near the same trouble as others because of the way we've run our company.
00;05;08;27 - 00;05;24;01
Mike
We've built a culture. The recruitment is a lot easier for us, and we've got great retention. That is an absolute lifesaver today. If I didn't have that ability to attract people for more than just wages, I think I would have a lot of sleepless nights right now.
00;05;24;03 - 00;05;41;23
Jennifer
Yeah, yeah, it was definitely been challenging specifically for your industry. How are you handling, the increase in prices and retention, like if there was a young entrepreneur going into this industry right now, how would you tell them how to handle those two scenarios?
00;05;41;26 - 00;06;04;07
Mike
Well, you know, one of the things that we're doing is giving estimates that are based on, like, they're not good for more than 5 or 10 days. And we used to say, hey, you know, here's an estimate, and this will get you by this year. So one of the things, you know, it's just mitigating risk through making sure that people know just how erratic the pricing is and how it's going up and down, mostly up on a daily basis.
00;06;04;07 - 00;06;23;10
Mike
So we're trying to protect against that. And then from a labor perspective, you know, we've again, we've been really blessed that, that we just met this morning, our executive team and we talked about two project managers that had left for greener pastures six months to a year ago. They were poached. They were offered some great deal.
00;06;23;12 - 00;06;43;22
Mike
And they both, in the last week and a half have both, wanted to come back. So that was just where greener down the line of their investment. That was horrible. They talked about, you know, I, I flew all the way out to California, to the home office, and we met for two hours, and then they just left me, went back to my hotel.
00;06;43;22 - 00;07;07;04
Mike
Nobody went out for drinks. Nobody asked me any personal questions. I was just a number. And I go that that's that is so incredibly important. Who we are, how we operate will help mitigate the labor risks that we have as well as we're growing our business. But that new entrepreneur, you know, you can't just get to work and then find anybody to run it.
00;07;07;07 - 00;07;24;22
Mike
It has to be really well thought out. We're in this kind of, plateau kind of a business, and we, we grow, grow, grow. And then we realize we are not we're not we're growing a little faster then we can, you know, our our process operations. We've got to fix the things that aren't quite right.
00;07;24;24 - 00;07;42;13
Mike
And we'll intentionally plateau for a year or so, not take, not grow of the top line or bottom line so that we can get that all of our, Achilles heels kind of addressed, and then we'll take it to the next level. So many startup entrepreneurs, they want to just go, oh my gosh, you got one house.
00;07;42;13 - 00;08;09;03
Mike
I have three houses now. I got 20 and it's just me. And there's one guy that I found who wants to work for me. And and then they burn, you know, they crash and burn and fail. So I think there's, there's a there's an abundance of work opportunities, abundance of projects. But we have to learn to say no, we use a, the statement I always say is if we can't flawlessly execute a project, you know, relatively speaking, we're not going to take it on.
00;08;09;05 - 00;08;11;24
Mike
So we are saying no to projects right now.
00;08;11;26 - 00;08;45;14
Jennifer
That's a really hard for an entrepreneur to do because you want to say yes, that that's tough stuff. Let's dive into a little bit more about how you develop these bonds, with your team and within your culture. And, you know, you were a speaker at several of our, in-person events before the pandemic. And there was one story you told us, and I know you need to give us the hybrid, or or shorter version of it about what you talked about an exercise with your team leaders, about a lifeline.
00;08;45;16 - 00;08;52;23
Jennifer
Can you give us the gist of that? But more importantly, what did it do? What was the impact of that?
00;08;52;25 - 00;09;18;12
Mike
There are now I love I love sharing that story. So the lifeline exercise is really a, an opportunity to go deeper, building trust through vulnerability. And so what you do is you take, a cardboard, you know, a poster board like maybe 18 by 24 or something. You draw a line right down the center of it, you put your earliest memory, on the left side of the bar and on the right side, you put your current age above the line.
00;09;18;12 - 00;09;39;21
Mike
The top half of the page, chronicles. Logically, it lists all the great things that have happened in your life, all the milestone events, you know, when you got married, your first kiss, your first car, your graduation, your wedding, your children, first, all these wonderful things, right? But then below the line, the thing that we hide from the world are all the tragedies that we suffered through along the way.
00;09;39;24 - 00;09;56;19
Mike
And so the lifeline exercise for me was, I decided I was going to do it at an executive level retreat. And so I had my executive team. There were four of us at the time. We rented a condo. So, we went there. We wanted to stay overnight. We're doing some business planning, but that night, I said, I want to go deep.
00;09;56;22 - 00;10;13;26
Mike
I want to get to know you people better, and I want you to know me better. And so I introduced the lifeline and gave them a description of what it's supposed to look like. I gave them about an hour to fill it all out. And there's a lot I mean, if you want to put your whole history on a piece of paper and you do it thoroughly, it could take days, right?
00;10;13;28 - 00;10;30;26
Mike
Anyway, I gave him an hour and I decided to go first because what I learned was, I will set the tone for how deep everybody will go. So I was going to put myself out there and go vulnerable. So I, I pulled my lifeline. It's really colorful and it's got all kinds of like little sketches and drawings and things.
00;10;30;26 - 00;10;54;27
Mike
And, and so I start walking from the day I was five years old, my first memory of finding a buffalo head nickel in this dry lot all the way till I think at that time I was 40 years old or 45, something like that. Anyway, I, I paused when I was 13 and I told the story about, my, my younger brother, who was 11, and I and a friend, and we went swimming in this pool at night in the summer, and we were coming back to have a sleepover at my house.
00;10;55;04 - 00;11;19;17
Mike
My friend crossed the street first, my brother crossed second, and I watched him get hit by a car and got thrown off. The bike was crushed. He laid in the streets of broken a broken body, and a day or two later was pulled off life support. And I started to relive that experience. In front of this group of of, peers, my executive team, I was, I was cheerful, I was having a lot of struggle with it.
00;11;19;20 - 00;11;42;13
Mike
And what I shared was from that moment forward, at 13 years old, I was convinced that I disappointed my mom and dad. I lost my brother on their watch, and I would I, by golly, I'm going to do everything possible to make them part of me. I will never fail. And that put me on a track as a leader that first to go to college and our family first to get a good job, first to climb the corporate ladder, take on an officer's role.
00;11;42;16 - 00;12;00;28
Mike
And I told my guys as I was giving them the story and they're like, oh my gosh, no wonder Mike's the way he is. Like, he took this trauma as a child. And it started to define who he was as a man and as a leader. And I didn't learn any of that. And I was probably, you know, 35 years old when I started to do some therapy work around it.
00;12;01;00 - 00;12;20;24
Mike
But the cool thing was, I spent my 20 minutes going over my life line. What I got done. I said, all right, who wants to go next? And they're like, can we have a little bit more time? I go, what? And I, what I didn't understand was they did their lifeline like high level news, sports, weather, all the fun stuff we just talked about freely with people and they saw me share really deep.
00;12;20;27 - 00;12;43;22
Mike
They decided they needed to flesh out their map, their lifeline, much more detail. So, in the end of that story is, one of those executives is my youngest brother who's 12 years younger than me. And he wasn't exactly at that retreat. And he looked at me afterwards and he says, obviously I've known you my whole life, so I have no idea who you were and why you were the way you were.
00;12;43;24 - 00;13;07;19
Mike
This is my own flesh and blood. Well, I'm working alongside for at least ten years at that point. And so when I think about how we connect to the leadership, to the important people in our organizations, we just take the news, sports, another approach. You barely know their spouses and their kids names. You don't really care that much about what's going on on the weekends, much less the traumas or the excitements in their life.
00;13;07;19 - 00;13;25;19
Mike
So I think that that began a journey of really going deep and really trust your vulnerability, which has had a huge impact on retention. It's put people into this actively, highly, actively engaged position in our company, which leads to bottom line, happy clients, etc., etc..
00;13;25;22 - 00;13;48;01
Jennifer
Well, we're all people first. We're all people first in. And what was the result of that exercise? You know, when they came back and they shared deep with you? Did you notice it right away? So so anybody watching right now, if they wanted to do something similar, you know, how long does that take? It's not a one and done approach either.
00;13;48;03 - 00;14;06;12
Mike
I mean, my my guys were ready and they did theirs. And they're every single one of the four of us when we share a lifeline. There was a point in there where the person presenting had to stop and kind of gather their emotions, like getting, you know, cheerful and and just, you know, it's okay to cry in public.
00;14;06;12 - 00;14;29;20
Mike
It's okay. Like, but we did that. And what we learned was it was so incredibly powerful. We wanted to code the rest of our business like that, and we ran right into a retreat. I think that fall, or maybe that next spring with a group of field leaders, skilled superintendents, field managers and executive team and did a similar, deep dive, not a lifeline, a different, a different, activity.
00;14;29;20 - 00;14;50;16
Mike
But it also led to people hugging each other the next day and saying, now get, you know, to say 50 year old male construction worker, I'll get each other at the end of a day and a half session saying, I love you. I'm like, what? How does a couple of contractors, a couple of construction guys end up in that boat?
00;14;50;16 - 00;15;02;03
Mike
But we have such rich relationships today, you know, you know, I get a lot of joy from my work hours that most people are just counting on Mondays till they retire. I don't I have no idea what I'm going to retire.
00;15;02;09 - 00;15;30;20
Jennifer
Well, you know, you're in an industry. It's a it's the stereotype is gritty and tough. And I know you're tough, too. And, but you're very vulnerable and you're very transparent and, and usually people don't see, that transparency as a strength. Most people see it as a weakness, especially men in the workplace. How has that vulnerability and sharing a vulnerability in your industry?
00;15;30;24 - 00;15;46;21
Jennifer
And, you're known to be tough and you're in a tough industry. How is that made you a better leader? And how have you seen other people become better leaders by by showing their vulnerability and, and developing trust through that?
00;15;46;23 - 00;16;09;02
Mike
Yeah. I mean, you're you mentioned, we're people first. You know, we're we're individuals. And I think about, you know, when we get together with our friends and family on weekends and we're you had a 4th of July picnic or whatever. It's all about telling the jokes and making fun of each other and sarcasm and all these different things that that people kind of get vulnerable and and lively and have great, relationships.
00;16;09;02 - 00;16;31;17
Mike
When we get to work, we have this stoic, you know, I'm not supposed to show the emotion here. I'm not supposed to care to be. I can't say anything. Jennifer, your hair looks great today because it might be inappropriate or whatever. Right. But look at my vulnerability. And I think the biggest thing it did was it leveled the field of human beings, human doing things together.
00;16;31;19 - 00;16;47;00
Mike
Right? And instead of, like, the CEO in an ivory tower, it's Mike who just admitted that he got pulled over speeding. And that's why he's late for work. And they're like, oh, he didn't have to share that. But he did. And so when I share, like.
00;16;47;02 - 00;16;48;20
Jennifer
Too many of those tickets.
00;16;48;23 - 00;17;15;00
Mike
I didn't get to take it. I got pulled over. But, but but the point, the point is that, when I'm willing to truly share who I am, others follow suit. And it takes away the title. It takes away the fear. I remember I had a guy when I was maybe a 20 year veteran, and I was a president and another 20 year veteran that we started together, worked in our fab shop, Kevin, and he still was nervous to come into my office and talk to me.
00;17;15;00 - 00;17;38;14
Mike
I'm like, dude, we have worked in this company. We almost started the same day. It's just me, Mike, and you're Kevin. I have this job. You have that one together. We're going to do great things. And so whatever. I, make myself vulnerable. I become approachable, relatable and not scary. Now, my message isn't. I'm ruling from above. I'm coming out like Moses with the Ten Commandments.
00;17;38;14 - 00;18;03;19
Mike
Instead, I'm just sitting there. We're throwing out ideas and building upon it, and we all collectively go forward at the same level almost. And so I think flattening out that that company of, you know, a couple hundred people and Mike's not any more special than the next guy. He puts his pants on the same way. Whatever. Or gal, you know, I just think it makes it life a lot easier and a lot less scary.
00;18;03;22 - 00;18;28;06
Jennifer
Well, and I think that goes to your retention that you've had despite the industry that you're in and despite the pandemic. That goes hand in hand. And I wanted to, to dive deeper into that because of how good you do things in your organization. I think it's important for others to know that so that they can do the same thing within their their cultures and their organizations.
00;18;28;08 - 00;19;02;14
Jennifer
There's been a lot of struggles, lately when we survey, CEO is the, the best and brightest, lot of struggles around hybrid hybrid work cultures with hybrid work subcultures where some team members are in person, some team members are, onsite in person, some team members are remote. Schedules subcultures because of that. And there's this group and that group and, have you had any experience with any of those issues that you've construction or, are you all in person?
00;19;02;14 - 00;19;09;01
Jennifer
Are some hybrid? Tell us a little bit about that and the digital culture that you're creating. If you are.
00;19;09;04 - 00;19;35;23
Mike
I you know, I am all about physical energy exchange, like being together. And I and as much as a lot of my peers and different owners that we work for decided to go remote and in some cases have decided to stay remote with a great, great percentage of the workforce. I honestly, I feel sorry. I feel bad for them because I, I look at these people who are journeying through their life in this career, wherever it is now, they're doing it alone in their office.
00;19;35;23 - 00;19;55;22
Mike
Sure, they can walk the dog when they want and they have this flexibility, but I think that there's a mental health, social, a mental, emotional well-being that people haven't seen yet and it's not going to come off or a number of years where, people are going to retire earlier because they don't have job satisfaction, they don't have the relationships.
00;19;55;22 - 00;20;21;09
Mike
So their, you know, emotional well-being is going to be different. So our company, you know, we we abided by the rules and we socially distance. We worked remotely when we could, but as soon as we could, you know, find that line or that crack where we could get back together. We did. That's not to say that we don't still have some remote, but our remote people today, are actually because, we've grown nationally.
00;20;21;09 - 00;20;41;28
Mike
And in order to find the best talent, instead of forcing people to come to West Michigan to move their their family everything we said, it's fine for you to work from where you are. I don't think those people are going to be as closely connected to our company as the rest of the individuals. I, I feel like they're going to get, sick 80% of our culture.
00;20;42;01 - 00;21;01;28
Mike
That's if they can't come over for, a holiday party or for a, quarterly meeting or something and really develop the relationships and feel the energy. There's nothing like that bumping into another person at the watercooler and having a conversation about something that leads to a instead of a three minute conversation or a 20 minute conversation. Right.
00;21;02;01 - 00;21;25;03
Mike
Those don't actually happen. So although there's plenty of opportunity for us to, use technology, for instance, we do, municipality meetings, you know, rezoning meetings. And we used to go there and sit in a room and listen to all the other stuff. And then our project came up and, you know, now it's like, hey, you can join via zoom.
00;21;25;03 - 00;21;27;11
Mike
Was like, all right, I can be eating dinner.
00;21;27;12 - 00;21;53;02
Jennifer
Stop images. There are some advantages and and I would I would just say that is our challenge moving forward. CEOs is finding a way to engage those remote people and being creative and using ingenuity. I know we just published, a digital and hybrid team bonding guide, to help with that and people sharing best practices. But that is the next big challenge.
00;21;53;05 - 00;22;13;10
Jennifer
But let's shift gears. Let's talk about, engagement and retention. We talked a lot about engagement and your style for doing that. And retention. Outside of transparency and building trust, what other tools are you using for, recruitment, retention and engagement?
00;22;13;13 - 00;22;28;11
Mike
I'll start with engagement. I think there's a lot of people that, coming to work. They punch the clock, they do their job, and they go home, and that's all they expect to do. So I look at a carpenter and they're they're just thinking they're going to go and trim the trim, work on a building all day long.
00;22;28;11 - 00;22;46;17
Mike
And I go that to me. Sure, there's engagement there. But I think they're missing out in a larger, a larger purpose in developing the corporation. And so we like to take people out of their normal job and put them in the new job. So, for instance, with Best and brightest, we have all these categories by which were judged.
00;22;46;19 - 00;23;06;04
Mike
We built committees around each category, and we challenges people from all aspects of our company. Might be a brand new labor, might be an accounting person, it might be a project manager. They're on that committee and they're talking and collaborating around how do we do even better next year? We have a leadership council. So we took five leaders in our field.
00;23;06;06 - 00;23;28;21
Mike
We took five leaders who are not typical officers in our office. Each of those has their own agenda to push and grow the company. And then we have, our executive committee. Those three groups make up our leadership council. We look at all these different opportunities to engage people who would typically think they're just going to come into work and hang drywall or paint or do casually.
00;23;28;23 - 00;23;45;05
Mike
And so I liken that to back when we were kids. We go to school every day, maybe a grind. We didn't want to go to class. But then there was that one day where they turn off the lights and they put a film strap or had a movie, and we're like, yes. And it was the day where we went to the nature center and we had a, you know, future.
00;23;45;05 - 00;24;07;19
Mike
Yes. I go, where are the film strips and field trips in our business lives that will create engagement, that will create retention. And the recruiting becomes, what are the stories that are told to draw the people in? You know, when we when we decided we were going to do our Hall Pass event and I've spoke to that, you know, it was me realizing I was I was driving I have twins.
00;24;07;21 - 00;24;31;12
Mike
When I took them to college, I took a whole two days off to take in the college and get them all set up in their rooms and come back. I had the benefit as a CEO, but I go, what about all of our people who had a limited amount of, you know, vacation time? I go, so we get we give each employee a one day hall pass every year to just do things to show up for their children, or in school might be reading a book at preschool or whatever.
00;24;31;14 - 00;25;03;27
Mike
So I can share 25 unique stories that Eve does to a potential candidate to to bring them here. And they're like, I have never heard that before. That sounds like something I'm very interested in. But if you're just going to offer a commodity job at another manufacturer and you don't have any, I mean, you can talk about health insurance and all these things, but I'm telling you, it's the unique value propositions that that we're coming up with that give the people, you know, like they're excited to be a part of that.
00;25;04;05 - 00;25;28;00
Jennifer
Yeah, well, I bet you're twins. You had the best loft ever. If I know you got all their other friends down the hall. Where, like, where'd you get that loft dance off? That's great. That's great. And another issue that we're hearing, from CEOs on is this whole issue with compensation models work from anywhere. You mentioned you have some remote employees in other states.
00;25;28;02 - 00;25;57;00
Jennifer
We're hearing in some of our, roundtables and discussion groups that people are struggling with figuring out there was one company I'm not going to mention the name, but they changed their compensation model three times, trying to figure out how to, pay people that were either in California or in Chicago or in Detroit and is is the pay for the job, or is the paying for what state they're in, and do they do cost of living adjustments for it?
00;25;57;02 - 00;26;14;12
Jennifer
And so let's say, you're in you're in West Michigan, let's say you have a West Michigan employee and they move to California. A lot of companies are saying, do I increase their salary because they moved to California and the job's the job? And then what if a California employee comes over to West Michigan? Do you lower their salary?
00;26;14;14 - 00;26;26;14
Jennifer
So there's been all kinds of stuff related to that in compensation in general, inflation rates, all of that. What are your thoughts as it relates to compensation right now?
00;26;26;16 - 00;26;49;26
Mike
Well, you know, I believe when you look at the top ten reasons why an employee leaves, compensations like zero six and something like that. It's, it's towards the bottom of the list. And so we worked really hard on the first 6 or 7 items. And then that compensation does become an issue. Now, I hire people from all over the country to run projects anywhere in the country.
00;26;50;02 - 00;27;10;03
Mike
So really we stick to pretty much a pretty defined range. So, for instance, a senior fuel manager who's going to run a job for us in any state is paid pretty much the same no matter what state they live by. What we've learned is we don't really have to adjust wages a lot because we still have people accepting our offers based on what we have.
00;27;10;06 - 00;27;28;18
Mike
Maybe some of that is a story I can tell them about who we are, how we show up for them, other our employee centric, and maybe they're willing to come in for a little less and then, they might have otherwise. But, you know, right now the the idea of a retention bonus horrifies me to go. We don't want you to leave.
00;27;28;25 - 00;27;55;11
Mike
Here's a big chunk of money just to make you happy. I go, that's what you have to do to keep a person. Then there may be more trouble. And again, that the long game is culture building. Because I think once they can't imagine life outside of your company, then that pay doesn't become an issue. You know, we wrote a book that literally talks about our company, and we have a prospective new employee who lives in California making acts.
00;27;55;13 - 00;27;59;22
Mike
And we said in the book, go, this is who we are. You can ask anybody. And they're like, I'm in.
00;27;59;25 - 00;28;27;20
Jennifer
So I don't know about money. I agree with you. And and so many, think that's what it's about. And there's what we're hearing is a lot of small businesses can't compete on these compensation models right now and everything happening, what we are advising people and what you just said is to who to identify who you are, team up with your marketing departments, put that in a book, put it into a marketing piece and say, this is us.
00;28;27;22 - 00;28;46;29
Jennifer
You're not going to drive, expensive cars, but here's our culture. Here's how we'll treat you. Here's the difference that you'll make. These is what we do. These are the types of construction projects that we do that impact people. And this is who we are. And so people are leaving with that. So there are good things happening.
00;28;46;29 - 00;28;59;08
Jennifer
It's forcing people to really look at their cultures and say, this is us, which putting a mirror in front of everyone's face and say, is this a win for you? Because this is who we are. This is the this is the suit that we're wearing.
00;28;59;10 - 00;29;16;26
Mike
Right? And I think that's the issue is it used to be, tell me why we should hire you. Because maybe it was, you know, this was a, an owner's market, if you will. Now it's an employees market. But I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. I think we're going to see a continued labor shortage.
00;29;16;28 - 00;29;47;05
Mike
And I think each employer has to have its own unique story that's different from its competition. If you're interviewing somebody and you can't tell them a half a dozen things that your company does that's unique, that stands out, that's unexpected, then you're just hiring based on wages. So I, I rather I get a lot of joy for how we're going to show up in a unique way for our people versus, oh, geez, I'm going to switch my hands more on how much more I think I might have to offer somebody to come to work for us.
00;29;47;05 - 00;30;11;17
Mike
I get that that's counterintuitive to me, but there is that desperation. I need people tomorrow. I just I don't have time for culture. I just got to pay them more and get them here like I'm drowning. I'll take anything to keep me my head above water. And that's the desperation. That's so. I say that the cultures, the long play, the long game, that I think it's paying off in great dividends now.
00;30;11;19 - 00;30;38;04
Jennifer
And to add to that, everybody is busy right now. So that's another, another education for our teams. Everywhere you go, everybody is swamped. Everyone's busy, everyone's quote unquote short staffed or running lean. It's just the way in the world right now. And making sure you hit home on what you are, what you're about. So here's another fun thing I want you to share with everyone.
00;30;38;06 - 00;31;01;25
Jennifer
Because of your strong culture and because of the data that you received, going through the best and brightest companies, you work for a program. And what you learned on that journey, a new business was started, that you were very involved with called become unmistakable. We've endorsed, some of become unmistakable products. And we can talk a little bit more about that in just a second.
00;31;01;25 - 00;31;05;15
Jennifer
But tell us about that journey and how it's evolved.
00;31;05;17 - 00;31;24;03
Mike
Well, you know, what happened was, when we started Best and Brightest, we found from that first report that we had so much we could do to get better. We got we got good, I guess, good ratings. Good, good ranking. We made it to the at that time to 101 and we are proud. But after that it became that's not good enough.
00;31;24;05 - 00;31;38;29
Mike
We want to be like we want to be an elite award winner. And it was like every year I want to be an elite award winner. The only way that we're worthy of that is to be elite in the way we do our, our business. Right. And so we started to push to get really creative on how to solve problems in a unique way.
00;31;38;29 - 00;32;04;27
Mike
Well, we did started figuring out and we started having different leadership groups asking us they could come in and interview us and listen to our philosophy around employee engagement and retention and all these kinds of things, and so on a weekly basis, I would spend 2 to 3, four hours sometimes just giving away our secrets, right? Or sharing our special sauce to the point where we had a, strategic planning session, three or strategic planning.
00;32;04;27 - 00;32;27;19
Mike
We said, you know what? Mike's getting to take it away. Wait, you watch these 4 or 5 hours, whatever a week? We just need to write a book, write it all down, and then put it out there, and then. Then we get back to building stuff. Well, that became the issue as we put it out there. And then a lot more people got interested, to the point where some of the tools that we had, developed in-house, one called you Mapping.
00;32;27;22 - 00;32;51;23
Mike
We ended up creating a consulting company, creating leadership training, creating the software for it, and changing the world through, like, right brain, these emotional, artistic, more, relationally based business. And it's just taken off. I mean, we've done some amazing things in the last 5 or 6 years with that, but it all came from us.
00;32;51;23 - 00;33;07;12
Mike
Just best practices, sharing it, then having a not enough best practices that we could put it in a book. I thought, wow, that's that is pretty cool. I never, never plan on writing a book. But we did that and now we're sharing that. And we've monetized it. That's even better.
00;33;07;15 - 00;33;34;18
Jennifer
For you or good for you. And you are building things. You're building people, which is you stick. So let's talk about that because, one of the areas, we've been hitting home on, on our surveys is people hate, hate performance reviews, employees hate receiving them, and supervisors hate giving them. They are a time, just consumes a lot of time.
00;33;34;25 - 00;34;02;24
Jennifer
So what we did is we put out this concept and we make our recommendations for the leaders to the best and brightest each year and say, here's what we recommend. And we've always put that on there. And that's one of the reasons why we've endorsed the use map is because it's more about a crucial conversation. And talking is human to human, versus you're a four on a five on your communication skills and your, two out of five on, getting the work done.
00;34;02;24 - 00;34;35;11
Jennifer
You know, nobody likes that. And we've always endorsed, in the moment conversations that they need to happen. Something's going on. It needs a conversation needs to happen within 24 hours. Not, you know, we wait six months and put it on the view as a high. Gotcha. So, so the you map is part of that. And I know my own team, you know, in our, our business operations at the, organization, we use the you map and it's just a wonder wonders for us.
00;34;35;11 - 00;34;48;17
Jennifer
And they're such a relief when you tell people that we don't have performance reviews. We have crucial conversations. So thank you for doing that. You've helped our organization, and I'm sure you're helping, hundreds more.
00;34;48;20 - 00;35;03;25
Mike
Well, it's interesting, you know, we we we changed it from that. Like you said, the performance review, you know, a big deal, a hijack. I'm scared. I'm fearful. I don't know what's going to happen. Or they they just come in and go. Yeah, yeah, whatever you say. I just want to know how much more money you're going to give me this year.
00;35;03;27 - 00;35;35;09
Mike
So we change it to that, you know, quarterly conversation. We started to learn that it doesn't take place in the CEO's office, that you do it somewhere neutral ground. We we talk about the idea of radical candor, this idea that if I really care about you and you know why? What my, intent is behind sharing these things, that it will benefit the relationship, so to say, you know, you say, to many times when you talk, you need to really think about that when you're presenting.
00;35;35;12 - 00;35;59;18
Mike
And you can tell somebody that instead of, you know, I just, you know, walked around this elephant in the room, I can just have this radical candor and that is the kind of stuff that we've been able to introduce. So the, at for those who aren't aware, you know, it's a very graphical depiction of me as an individual and all my hopes and dreams and my family and my likes and dislikes and goals to compared to what the company needs for me on the other side.
00;35;59;21 - 00;36;24;19
Mike
And so for us to touch base on a quarterly basis with our people and understand both sides and the dynamics that are changing because we're adjusting based on their family interest and their needs, their goals. And then we're also adjusting based on the industry, the amount of work we have, the where they're at in their individual development plan, and we get to have this really rich conversation that isn't based on it's not a pay review time.
00;36;24;19 - 00;36;47;04
Mike
It's I just want to reconnect with you in a really meaningful way so that you can be a highly engaged employee who feels highly regarded, respected and understood as a person as well. And so, again, building culture takes time. But that old, you know, you talked about that annual performance review. Oh my gosh, how many managers just said, oh, it's June, I got to do 20 reviews.
00;36;47;06 - 00;37;03;24
Mike
Yeah. And they just pound through and they're meaningless. And then you talk about giving somebody two out of five I go, most of our people are wusses. They don't want you don't want to say negative. So it's like, I'll give you a couple and a half out of five because I don't like conflict. So I'm just going to tell you what you want to hear.
00;37;04;00 - 00;37;09;18
Mike
Right. So we've landed on something that's much more beneficial long term.
00;37;09;20 - 00;37;35;21
Jennifer
Yeah. And I, I feel and I not everyone feels this way, but I feel that we having radical candor in the moment is a way of caring for someone. It's a way of respecting them, versus huddling up after the meeting saying, can you believe she said that? You know, that creates angst and gossip and negativity. So, you know, radical candor is, almost, going against human nature.
00;37;35;21 - 00;38;02;01
Jennifer
A lot of the things that you do in your organizations is going up against human nature. So we have a long ways to go with that. And people being transparent and vulnerable and saying what they think in the moment, instead of holding it on and being angry about it or gossiping about it, afterwards. So it's work to be done, and I'm trying to champion that with all the best and brightest, but also within our own team as well.
00;38;02;01 - 00;38;22;24
Jennifer
It's it's a lot of work. I think that's the next evolution for CEOs and leaders is to get to that point within our culture. So thank you for your leadership there. Now, you said, you mentioned before scary CEOs and people sometimes get scared by the title and they operate within human nature to be scared of supervisors and whatnot.
00;38;22;24 - 00;38;44;25
Jennifer
So let's demystify you a little bit. I know you did that Harvard executive program, which is so fun and so intriguing. I also know that you run marathons and I think you told me you ran the New York City Marathon and you were injured. Correct. Help people. That three.
00;38;44;27 - 00;39;08;25
Mike
Well, I was I was training for the New York City Marathon, which is, takes about three years to get. And it's a lottery system. And I got accepted, and my brother and I both, run these, destination marathons together. We try to do at least one a year. And so we got in, we booked a beautiful room that was facing the the, Central Park over the finish line is we bought our tickets, we had our entry fee, so we're we're into this thing a couple thousand dollars.
00;39;09;00 - 00;39;29;03
Mike
I mean, the six months of training I'm running 20 mile runs, 22 mile runs on Saturdays each week getting ready for this thing. And I'm off for a run about four weeks before the marathon. And I'm running out Millennium Park, out in Grand Rapids area. And, and at 5:00 in the morning and I land on a, I don't know what it was a walnut or something.
00;39;29;03 - 00;39;47;23
Mike
Big round like probably a golf ball, but. And I broke my number five metatarsal on my foot. So my outside football and I broke it, and I couldn't even. It took me like, 45 minutes to walk a mile home. I, I had a speaking engagement in Panama, city, that that day I was leaving for.
00;39;47;23 - 00;40;05;20
Mike
I walk through an airport, for three days, I walked in a broken foot. They can. I just sprained it. But I found out within about three, 3 or 4 days later, I broke it. I said to the doc, you know what? What what do I gotta do? I got a marathon. Four weeks. I was gonna run a marathon because we could probably do surgery on it, put a a screw that.
00;40;05;20 - 00;40;21;04
Mike
Maybe you'd be able to do it. We said you're nuts if you'd pick your gut. I said, well, let's try it, because I got a lot in Boston, that's all. I had surgery, I got a screw put on it. I couldn't put any weight on it for three weeks. I had one week before the marathon. He asked me to, you know, just try it on.
00;40;21;04 - 00;40;40;03
Mike
On the treadmill. I ran seven miles on a treadmill and it felt like I had a roll of quarters in my shoe. So I struck. But you know what? I think I just dumb or I just like, I can't say no. And so I said to my brother, I go, I'm going really paid for it. I walk the distance, I'll do what I have to do.
00;40;40;05 - 00;40;59;03
Mike
But I ended up I ended up running it. I did reasonable with my time and I crossed the finish line. I it just, it's a, it's a sign of human spirit. And, you know, when we put our mind to something, we can make it happen. But I also tell my doctor friends, you say I'm an idiot, so, you know, I got that.
00;40;59;05 - 00;41;06;04
Jennifer
Well, you'll know when it starts hurting when it rains. But, I tell you this. Tell me this. Are you still running?
00;41;06;07 - 00;41;24;22
Mike
I am, you know what I, I got accepted to while I ran the Berlin Marathon last year, and then I got accepted. My brother and I got accepted to London in October, but my, one of my, twins, older kids, one's getting married in June. The other is getting married in September, late September. So I can't do it.
00;41;24;22 - 00;41;29;19
Mike
So I may have to come over by you and, run the, the Detroit Marathon, I think this year.
00;41;29;22 - 00;41;32;05
Jennifer
To have you. I'll ride my bike next to you.
00;41;32;05 - 00;41;36;23
Mike
How's that? You'll go. You'll be going really slow on your bike. This this whole body's not getting any faster.
00;41;36;29 - 00;41;48;07
Jennifer
Oh, gosh, I know, walk us through, how you de-stress. Is running part of your de-stressing? Do you get up in the morning, go for run every day? Or how does that I do?
00;41;48;07 - 00;42;06;01
Mike
I'm not on a schedule for training right now because I haven't committed in the next one. But, you know, distressing for me is doing things I love. And running is one of those, I love working with my hands. I was helping my future son in law change, a wheel bearing, my daughter's tire the other day.
00;42;06;03 - 00;42;27;15
Mike
I'm a carpenter by trade. I built, 20 houses over the years on, at night and weekends for myself and family and some specs, and, I mean, electrical ductwork, drywall, painting. I can do any of the trades myself. Now, I I'm having a hospital right now, but, I'm just being the general contractor.
00;42;27;21 - 00;42;49;08
Mike
But those are all things that are really good for me. I think just taking moments, to myself, is really important. So the idea of one day a month where you just disappear, don't tell anybody. I know there's not many people listening right now, but probably every every other month I go to a movie in the middle of the day.
00;42;49;11 - 00;43;04;13
Mike
Good. Like, yeah, like 1230, 1:00 showing. I'll get a bucket of popcorn and I watch a movie and I'll have a bunch of guilt because I don't want to get caught, but I'm like, you know what? I need to just, you know, de-stress and turn it off.
00;43;04;15 - 00;43;24;17
Jennifer
That's very good advice for other people listening right now. And I actually give that advice when, someone on my team is going through something at home and they have a lot of stress at home and they have their, their job, I will literally say check next Tuesday. Take a couple hours or half a day or whatnot and go hide somewhere.
00;43;24;17 - 00;43;37;09
Jennifer
I said, movie theater is a great place because you forget everything for a little bit. It gives you that mindfulness that you need and then you can get back to it. That's great advice. Never be ashamed about. That is fantastic.
00;43;37;11 - 00;43;56;04
Mike
While the other, the other one that I would share, and it's important to stay connected, I don't I don't want to be an empty nester and have my wife go, who are you? Right. So working on my relationship, as hard as I work on my business is important. So this idea that once a month we get together to do a couple's massage, a 90 minute massage, and it's just like, so look forward to it.
00;43;56;04 - 00;44;14;06
Mike
We always started like noon and it's done by, you know, 130 and it's just like this reprieve from the world. It's a little mini day during the day. It feels so incredibly good. And for the money, I there isn't a better date that we look for and we put it on the calendar. So it's just taking those.
00;44;14;08 - 00;44;20;13
Jennifer
Also very good advice. All right I got some rapid fires here. Your favorite big.
00;44;20;15 - 00;44;32;16
Mike
My favorite band I grew up with the doors back. And you know I was the 70s but the 60s music was that any time I hear one of those songs, I crank it up. I'm. And like that.
00;44;32;19 - 00;44;38;21
Jennifer
Well over by the police. All right. Favorite meal? What's your favorite? Favorite dish?
00;44;38;23 - 00;44;45;24
Mike
Oh, I love a really good woodfired pizza with artichokes and dried tomato and, mushroom.
00;44;45;26 - 00;44;50;17
Jennifer
Also sounds delicious. Now that's vegetarian. Are you a vegetarian?
00;44;50;20 - 00;44;56;06
Mike
I'm not. I, but I eat chicken fish, but I don't really red meat for the most part.
00;44;56;08 - 00;45;02;04
Jennifer
You know, because you're an athlete. You got those marathons you run, what's your mantra?
00;45;02;08 - 00;45;20;24
Mike
I like the, being award worthy, in all that I do. And that means, worthy of, father of the year, husband of the year, player of the year, neighbor of the year, whatever it is, I love using that to vet my decision, you know? Hey, the neighbor's trash cans rolling around in the in the street.
00;45;20;26 - 00;45;25;16
Mike
Is that my job to do? You know what? If I'm worthy a neighbor the year I get out of my car and I take care of their trash can?
00;45;25;18 - 00;45;32;04
Jennifer
So that's very wise, very wise. A couple more questions here. How do you define happiness?
00;45;32;11 - 00;46;00;02
Mike
It is not has nothing to do with money. I know that to be true. I think happiness for me is seeing others thrive, and I got to be a part of it. That's happiness for me. Happiness is when you're doing something joyful and you lose track of time. You know, it's, it's those little moments in life where my wife and I look at each other as we see our child do something spectacular, and we look at each other and go, we did that.
00;46;00;04 - 00;46;03;04
Mike
That is so gives me great joy, but.
00;46;03;04 - 00;46;08;26
Jennifer
Leaving a legacy. So tell me, how do you want to be remembered?
00;46;08;29 - 00;46;33;16
Mike
I like the self, the selflessness. But Mike's goal was to show up at 100% and all that he did, that he had his commitments and that he worked really hard in service to others to try and make the make, in particular, the 40 year journey that each of us would maybe have in the work. In a work experience to make that journey special for all.
00;46;33;19 - 00;46;50;09
Mike
And if I can leave a mark in the world where, businesses can can find a way to treat employees in a different way, where they thrive through 40 years, instead of feeling like, you know, a prison sentence, that, that they have joy through their, their career. And I feel like I left a good legacy.
00;46;50;11 - 00;47;08;21
Jennifer
Well, and that is why you are here with us today, sharing your knowledge, because others can glean so much from it. Mike, thank you so much for your leadership, for all that you do, not only for your team, but in the community as well as sharing your knowledge with others. We can't thank you enough. And thank you for joining us today.
00;47;08;24 - 00;47;11;28
Mike
Thank you. It's such an honor. I enjoyed it very much.
00;47;12;01 - 00;47;29;04
Jennifer
All right, now go run 20 miles. All right. Thank you Mike. Bye, everybody. Thank you so much for joining us today. And, please take one of these things that Mike shared with us and apply it to your own work life, your own team, or your own personal life. Go have a great day, everyone. Buh bye.