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Welcome to Your Art Is A Spell, the podcast that ignites inspiring and transformative conversations about art as a magical practice. I'm your host, Edgar Fabián Frías—a multi-passionate artist, witch, therapist, and proud mutant shape-shifter. My art spells have reached audiences through social media, billboards, and skyscrapers and have even been placed on the surface of the moon! Join us as we explore how reclaiming your unique artistic voice and embracing bold creativity can transform your life and the world around you. Subscribe to the podcast and sign up for our newsletter at www.yourartisaspell.com to stay connected!
welcome your art is a spell and it will change
your life and the world around you today we have
a really special guest Michelle Tea is going
to be joining us for Your Art is a Spell and
I'm going to be reading her bio michelle Tea
is the author of over a dozen books of memoir
fiction poetry and children's lit including her
latest Knocking Myself Up her memoir Valencia
won the Lambda Literary Award for best lesbian
fiction even though it was obviously all true
her recentish essay collection Against Memoir was
awarded the Pen/ America Diamondstein Spiel Vogle
Award for the art of the essay she is also a
recipient of the legendary Rona Jaff Awards
and a 2021 Guggenheim Fellow Michelle has also
started a publishing house called Dopamine Books
she's the founder of Radar Productions the Bay
Area Literary Nonprofit she's the host of the
Spotify podcast You're Magic and has over 30 years
of experience reading tarot all of this knowledge
and wisdom has been encapsulated in her tarot
book Modern Tarot i am so overjoyed and excited
to share this wonderful conversation I'm about to
have with Michelle Tea welcome so much to Your Art
is a spell it is such an honor to have you here
Michelle i'm obviously as you know such a huge
fan and someone who has been so impacted by your
work and as I know thousands of people have such
a gift to have you on this podcast and would
love for you to just to share like how you're
doing and yeah how things are going right now i
know that we're in the midst of so much so much
oh my gosh um well I'm a big fan of yours and so
I'm honored to be on this show um and gosh how am
I doing uh let me drop in do I want to drop in
you can stay dissociated if you want to i don't
know it's an okay day you know I I like met up
with like like my exboyfriend of many many years
who I've only recently sort of reconnected with
and you know he's on like this hardcore mystical
journey which is really cool and so we just have
lots of fun um like stuff to talk about that like
we know each other well enough that we know that
we're not going to think that either one of us has
gone off the deep end we're like no no I believe
believe that yes you know so that was really cool
and inspiring and then you know also just sort of
not knowing and we've talked about this like how
to be processing everything that's happening in
the world and we're both sort of and I feel like a
lot of people I've spoken to feel like this where
it's like you you don't want to become totally
panicked and like upset your whole life cuz the
reality is that like right now like I am safe you
know for the moment and and my family every you
know everyone is safe it's hard to know what to
do with that when we also know that so many people
aren't safe and it's like how can I be safe right
now and there's like a third grader in detention
and a kidnapped woman in a jail in Louisiana it's
like really scary and it's hard to know what
to do with everything with all of it um yeah
definitely so kind of going back and forth between
I'm like is this sort of am I checking out is it
maybe it's okay you know is it I don't know it's
really hard to know to know what to do um you know
my my reality immediate environmental reality has
just been like trying to get blurbs for books that
dopamine is putting out and you know making sure
everyone knows about the different events that are
happening and communicating with venues and you
know stuff like that's what I've been doing all
day you know is just work working and um Yeah yeah
yeah thank you so much for sharing all this yeah
it is such a complex time and I'm similar to you
like I I want to stay up to date i want to know
what's happening and I also notice like how much
it impacts me to like be in it or stay in it and
especially with the fear and the anger everything
that comes up when we connect with these systems
and spaces and I also have been turning to my
work as like a refuge or as a place where I can
really focus my energy and I'm just so proud of
all the ways that you're showing up in the world
and would love for you to just share a little
bit about like what's been going on in your world
and maybe but before that cuz I know we have some
stuff I want to make sure we talk about like this
amazing anthology coming up but before we go into
that though like can we talk a little bit about
your art journey and like how you became a writer
and like I'm just would love to hear like what
art and writing has meant for you yeah um it's
really funny i feel like writing and literature
has always always always been a way for me to try
to create community like my mother has this really
funny story that she's always told people even
you know before I knew that I'd be able to be
a writer or anything that like when I was really
little I was like in the front yard at the fence
trying to call people into my yard to play with
me being like "I have books i have books come play
with me." And she was like pathetic but I feel
like that is so precious yeah i'm like you guys
I want I have toys i have books come play with me
oh my gosh that warms my heart so much to think of
young Michelle with with her books just calling
people over that's so sweet nothing has changed
um you know it's all just been about that I guess
and I you know I was thinking I mean I will talk
about writing but I was really thinking about how
much creating like community around writing has is
really such an enormous part of my spiritual work
you know in a sense because it's it's the it's the
um area where my ego is less involved not not
involved like ego is always there you know
trying to take credit for everything but it's
so it's it's so much more peaceful for me and
less fraught in a way where I really feel like I
I know that I'm being of service whereas sometimes
with writing it's really hard to know that you're
being of service cuz it's so me oriented especially
when I'm writing about myself and it just feels
like I'm scratching this compulsive itch you know
but that's a little off topic perhaps i um I I
I started writing really young i had I tried to
make like a school a class newspaper when I was in
second grade i wrote an article chickenpox taken
over the second grade you know interviewed people
um when I was like critical news you know exactly
i wrote lots of poems about like against hunting
from the perspective of animals as if I lived in a
rural area like I did not i think I just saw Bambi
and I was like well that seems terrible you know
um I like when I by the time I was 16 17 um I
was I was a goth kid in the 80s in New England
there was this really cool magazine called B-side
that I really liked and I was like they should
do an an article about Christian death nobody
ever writes about Christian death they're the
best band and so I like wrote them a letter just
complaining basically and they were like do you
want to interview Christian death as if I was a
person and not a teenager it was wild that was my
first published writing was I got to like Valor
from Christian Death called me from like England
on my shitty little phone in Chelsea Massachusetts
and I wrote this article about Christian death um
Oh I love that and I love that you like used your
anger of like what this is missing and turned into
an opportunity like Yeah yeah I guess so I didn't
think of it like that but it's really true um you
know I I didn't I went to college for like two
semesters i kind of no one in my family had gone
to college and you know it was just this weird
thing where like my mother really encouraged us to
go to college because she recognized we were smart
and that that was me and my sister and that was
like what we should do but when it came down to
it no one really knew how to do that and I didn't
go I went to a vocational high school so the high
school didn't have resources to help either they
were like you want to go to college why did you
come here so I managed to figure out two semesters
and then I ran out of money and it was so
overwhelming and and I just wanted to be a writer
the whole time um and I wasn't going for writing
i was going for like psychology cuz I just thought
well I already write i should learn because at
that point I'd been writing short stories and
I sort of identified as a writer even though I
didn't know what I was doing that much i had done
some zines coming out of uh high school i had done
a zine um and so I just decided I would be a writer
and through a series of romantic mishaps I wound
up in San Francisco with my best friend Peter
and I didn't know that there was like both a huge
like dyke punk sexy renaissance happening or like
a literary spoken word pre-slam poetry you know
kind of punk and hiphop influenced poetry thing
happening and I fell into both of them and I was
like wow you know this whole time I've known I was
a writer but I didn't know what that meant like I
didn't know how you got published I never thought
I'd be published I was often held back from from
doing the writing I wanted to do cuz I was sort
of like well why then like what am I what do I
do with it you know but suddenly I was like oh I
bring it to these open mics and I stand up on the
stage and I read it and I get to be part of this
cool thing where there are all these like weird
interesting people talking about their lives and
writing stories and poetry and so I did that and
I started making poetry chatbooks i found other
I found people who are still in my life and like
so dear to me to this day you know like Ali Liebegott
uh Beth Lisick Justin Chin you know who's not with
us anymore but like all these people were also
Bucky Sinister they were showing up in these
places and it was so cool and that's how Sister
Spit started um when Sini Anderson moved to
San Francisco she'd been doing spoken word in
Chicago and wanted to start like an all girl thing
in San Francisco so the folks at the Bearded Lady
was like "Oh you should talk to Michelle Tea she
I think she does that kind of stuff and so I
had brought her this like stack of chatbooks
and I'm like you got to get Ma Marcy Blackman
you got to get Daphne Gottlieb
i was like just here's
all the writers and she was like do you want to
do this with me and so I was like oh yeah sure
so that's how we started Sister Spit um we did
it every week it was a weekly open mic which
seems so excessive now cuz seems like things
happen monthly if at all now but you know you
had the energy back then yeah yeah every week
you know so clubs are every week you know open
mic so we did it for for a few years and then
we kind of got burnt out took a break i was in a
band my band was really shitty we didn't stop us
from going on tour so we went on tour of the
Pacific Northwest and I loved being on tour i
didn't like being in a band i found the musicians
to be really like snoody and like cold and like I
was so used to this very warm encouraging queer
literary scene and I was like oh and I didn't I
hated I was playing drums and I was like oh this
is so arduous like put the drums together take the
drums down like writing you just get your notebook
and that's all you need so when I got back I told
Sini I was like I we should do we should tour
why can't we tour you know like we're actually
good like all these writers we know are actually
really good you know my band is not like maybe
we can do something and so that's how we started
doing Sister Spit and you know it's been off and
on since that time in different formations me and
Sini did it for a while then Sini did it for
a minute without me i did it for a minute without
her then we did it together again a few years back
so yeah and through all that I was writing uh I
was writing poetry until I uh but I kind of wanted
to tell more of the story my poems were always
about little things that had happened um and I
found myself wanting to tell more of the story but
I didn't really know what that meant and I found
Eileen Miles's book Chelsea Girls and I was like
whoa this is it this is what I want to do they're
doing it someone published it i guess it's real
you know i don't know why this thing i don't know
it's like I didn't want to waste my time or
something um so I started writing you know
uh these little sort of vignettes about my own
experience and then again not trying to write
a book per se writing them to be read out loud
again in this really great performance scene that
was happening in San Francisco but what happened
was I just amassed a bunch of work and it all had
the same main character me and so it was pretty
easy to sort of thread them together and create
a book and um Eileen helped me get my first book
which was amazing i sort of like stalked them into
being my friend i kind of got their phone number
and their address from I stole it from someone's
address book and like sent them postcards and
they came and read it sister spit and I read
something the same night to try to impress them
and you know they did like it and they had asked
me to send them some work under the guise of uh
it being for a journal but what they did was they
actually passed it to Chris Kraus from um Semiotext(e)
Native Agents and told told Chris to publish it
and Chris did and so that was my first book and
you know really almost all my books especially
at the beginning I got from community and from
friends you know it's like for Valencia Cindy's
roommate was Inga Muscio at the time who had just
published her book C@NT on Seal Press and she
connected me with Seal and then I did a bunch
of work with them and once I once I had a couple
books published I realized like oh my god I think
I'm think I'm writing books now like I was like I
think I can keep doing this and that was really
cool because this is real right yeah you know it
was really cool because before that I was you know
writing for performance so it had this very you
know and it really influenced my voice in a way
that I really appreciate like no regrets at all um
but there was still this sort of like I'm up here
for 5 minutes i got to grab people big emotions
funny sexy angry traumatic like you know um and
then the more I kept writing the more I kept sort
of presuming that I'd be able to get it published
and I took more time and then I let things that I
was I was writing things to be read not read aloud
but like for people to read and it I got to kind
of take my time a little bit more and slow down
be poetic if I wanted to oh yeah that's how it all
started thank you so much for taking us on this
huge journey of like really seeing the formative
years of your our practice developing and I'm
just like really struck by a couple of things
and I'm like trying to see how they come together
sitting with the paradox that you were sharing of
like writing being something that could be like
individual or like insular or even as you're
saying a little bit scratching that itch right
and how it also like facilitates like connection
and community and creates space for something
to happen and thinking about that transition
that you shared from like performing from really
having something that you want to be punchy and
like powerful to then thinking of another audience
right that's going to be taking on another journey
that might take more time or have more space
for nuance and like yeah I'm curious about your
thoughts around maybe this like tension or the
way that you've like witnessed that development
of your internal voice and who do you imagine
or are you envisioning someone or is it really
uh this is me excavating in my own life and
looking at my own experience and if someone likes
it great but you're not really thinking of them so
yeah wondering if you got anything from that yeah
no for sure that's a great question i mean that's
something that people think about like who am I
writing this for you know like who's my audience
and I think especially when I was starting out
um I was writing for some sort of like projected
version of myself just like some girl who was sort
of like lost and needed to read about her own
experience who wasn't seeing herself you know
and then um that you know that changes through
time it's been like decades right and it's like
that girl you know who's just like just really
a white gay girl you know what I mean it's like
she she's lots of things for her now out in the
world you know which is you know it's it's lost
a little bit of that like ah you know I got to
it's really important to tell this story it's
like I don't really feel like that anymore uh
I mean on a really cosmic level I do feel like
everyone's story is important but it's also you
know not without a lot of uh critique and thought
about whose stories get deemed important in our
culture and things like that you know and I feel
differently about that about my own identity
participating in that sort of at this point but
it's still I'm still a writer so I'm still here so
it does get a little bit like yeah who is this for
um somebody's shared really good advice once to
like write to impress a writer that you love and
I've definitely written a lot to impress Eileen
Miles you know I definitely often think like would
Eileen like this you know and and the writing I
like best of myself are the pieces that I I do
think she would like or they would like you know
the pieces that I'm writing for them those are
the ones that I like the best um what's happened
more recently which is really strange is that I've
gotten an agent i've had I've had an agent for a
little while now um but I've been able to sort of
place books with bigger presses and and actually
get some money which is important because I really
needed it and still need it but it really did and
has [ __ ] with my voice because then suddenly I
don't know who I'm writing for like if I'm writing
a book that like like a small midsize independent
press is gonna put out like I kind of know who I'm
writing it for and it's I'm very comfortable with
that and then you know if if I'm writing it for
this bigger press and they've given me some money
then I it's like it's terrible how much it gets
in my head and under my skin where I feel like
I need to be writing to all these people so that
all these people buy this book so that the press
makes their money back their investment in me and
so that they so that this can keep happening and
I can keep making my living this way it's been a
real mixed bag i mean I'm really really grateful
that I'm able to you know keep publishing with
presses that have more resources but it's been a
struggle to try to bring my voice back to myself
and not feel like suddenly my voice my inherent
voice is getting a little bit hijacked by like by
like some lady who's like talking to the ladies
out there or something like it's really weird you
know um I've got some books that I've put out that
like I don't really like them you know but but
I do get messages from people that were like "Oh
that book was so important to me." And all I can
think is that like "Well then it was for you you
know like that book was for you and I'm so glad
I found you it wasn't for me." And you know I
do have a I do have a larger feeling about all
of this where I just feel like what happens to
my work after it leaves me is almost none of my
business even as it's coming out of me you know
I try not to be too intense about is this good is
this bad i mean you have to to some extent feel
satisfied with it but you know def I've definitely
put books out there that I'm just like "Oh there's
something weird about that book." And I just have
to be like "Oh well did my best you know?" Um so
yeah it's really strange i'm I'm working on a book
right now that I'm really really being intense
about keeping the voice to a place that I like
and I'm just hoping that you know uh that everyone
will be happy with it and I you know I don't know
it's really it's really weird there's a lot more
what I didn't realize about once you do get larger
or maybe this isn't true for all writers but for
me in getting these larger advances there's a
little bit of like well now you have to write
in this way like you wrote you you put together
this proposal which is a lot of [ __ ] right cuz
who knows what the book is going to be it's like
writing a grant you're like I think I'm going to
do this and then you're Yeah and then you're like
oh I guess I got to do this now and like you're
kind of beholden to this weird proposal and like
for myself I just want to go over here and over
there and over here and be weird and I keep having
to be like "No you made this vow to this publisher
in the form of this proposal which is a bunch
of [ __ ] and now you need to like stay stay
on track." And I think that's what messes with my
voice when I feel that I can't be really free and
wander and make um weird connections and digress
and go on tangents right yeah and I can really
hear that from the way that your work started
early on right as you were saying like I wasn't
looking to make a book i was just really taking
all these experiences writing about them and
somehow they connected right and to think of like
going to the other stage where you're naming like
having a plan and having to stick to that plan or
feeling pressure to stick to that plan alongside
also what you're naming too of going from your own
personal experience to then talking to this like
audience that you're hoping will connect right
and finding a way to like translate or to bring
that definitely understand that struggle and thank
you for naming that i'm sure there are other folks
who could really resonate with that and yeah and
I'm curious like what have you found helpful in
terms of you as you're saying now working on a
new book coming back to your own voice has there
been like a process of like reclaiming or kind of
re-remembering this like process that you thrive
in i mean I think that trusting when it feels
good right and like really trust trusting like
when I'm really in a like in a flow with it and
you know sometimes sometimes that works you know
sometimes this I've definitely written pieces that
I thought were really awesome and then I go back
and I'm like oh I was really caffeinated and I I
was feeling good you know but even those pieces
I feel like I don't know if I feel good about them
even if they need to be cleaned up and tweaked I'm
on the right track you know and I think that it's
really about about that about really almost like
paying a little bit of attention to how it feels
in my body is real then keep doing it you know i
think that's what it is i think I know honestly
and and a little bit is about trusting myself
and also like trusting that you know sometimes I
think I'm so weird and I'm like not like I'm not
that weird you know what I mean like I'll be like
"Oh this is too weird don't make it so weird." And
then I'm like "Why am I so self-censoring?" Like I
just think I don't know if it's a product of like
growing up during the time that I grew up in and
in the way and just hearing you know that you're
just that you are too weird that there's like a
fear of like oh if I let everyone know how weird
I really am or like if I'm myself it's not somehow
not okay i have to like pretend to be like cleaner
more normal i don't know you know but it's just
this is just a drama that's happening inside my
head i don't think it's happening anywhere else
but that's where it [ __ ] you up that's where
it gets in the way of your writing you know yeah
and you haven't really used this language but what
you're making me think of is like when folks talk
about masking right or like kind of having to have
like that like part of you that develops to bridge
between the normie world and like the weirdo world
right and then Yeah and then you know as you're
naming as you get bigger that that world grows
right and so then like that distance between
that self-perceived weirdness and the culture
that you're hoping will buy your book like that's
like such a a wider and wider gap right so I like
totally can imagine why this part of you just
shows up and is like are they going to get you
you know yeah yeah but you just have to trust it
and go for it like my my editor actually said "Be
gonzo with it." And I was like "Oo that's I love
that that feels like permission." And like I don't
need to you know and it's also just like not not
censoring yourself in advance you know cuz you
don't know what what people are going to what's
going to fly and what isn't and and so yeah it's
it's a little of that i do feel like you know I I
think that it feels like on some level like such
an incredible stroke of incredible luck that I'm
able to make a living off a writer and I think
there's always a part of me that's afraid that I'm
going to like do the wrong thing and and it's all
going to blow up you know and so it's it's that
I think that that kind of weighs that that weighs
on me and then trickles into my voice and then
my voice doesn't feel as enjoyable or authentic
so makes sense yeah especially being artist like
it can be so precarious right and it is so also
like a roller coaster where you're like all of a
sudden receiving all the money and like then you
don't know what's going to happen right right and
it's just like I think as an artist you do develop
these parts that are always like trying to think
about the future or trying to think about what's
like next and and I I'm really glad that you share
that because I feel like especially as artists get
like larger that there can be this perception that
it's like oh they're set they're fine and it's
like no matter what I think for artists this this
journey is always going to have its ups and downs
and I think we're always going to have that
feeling of like I'm so grateful that I get to
do this because it is such a gift to be able
to make a living from your creative practice
and it is very tenuous in our country you know
it's very very tenuous yeah no I know i hear
that all the time from there's like so so many you
know creative people who are beloved and I think
that you know people might think that they're
they're just like never worry about how could they
possibly worry about money they're so you know
like popular whatever everyone loves them but it's
like yeah if you I just feel like in this country
like if you don't have like family wealth you're
never you're never comfortable you know you're
always worrying about like what what's going to
h Can you keep it going what's going to happen
you know yeah definitely yeah yeah and I you
know and I'd like to pivot a little bit because I
would love to talk about dopamine and especially
with you like kind of bringing in this idea of
scratching an itch like I'm just curious like what
made you decide to call dopamine dopamine and also
if you want to just share what made you decide to
move in this direction in your life yeah well um
you know it's very late in history to name a thing
um because so many things have been named and
you know I sat with my um my like collaborator
Beth Pickens and we were going through all of
these different names and just they're all taken
and they're all taken like by other presses and
and you know some of these presses it's like they
put out one book 10 years ago but they still have
a little bit of a presence and you just kind of
can't touch it and you know I I knew as we were in
this process I'm like we're going to hit the name
that it's meant to be like we'll you know it's you
know we got attached to names we couldn't use and
I'm like it's fine and that wasn't ever supposed
to be its name we just And when it landed on
dopamine and then we couldn't find anything else
that was dopamine and we're like "Oh okay i guess
it's dopamine." And now it's like "Of course it's
dopamine." I mean I'm such a dopamine machine as
somebody who's you know historically been prone to
addiction and um and just you know I I feel very
um aware of the different things in in life that
kind of give me that little lift you know and I'd
love for these books to to give people a little
lift and working on it gives me a lift like it
gives me dopamine like I love collaborating i love
booking tours i love putting an anthology together
it feels like that that dinner party question
like who are four people you'd like to invite to
a dinner party it's like who are 30 people you'd
like to invite to an anthology about [ __ ] you
know it's like so fun yeah too you know I um in
San Francisco where I lived for like 25 years I
was always putting on like literary shows even
after Sister Spit sort of stopped I was doing
a lot of events and I began to be mentored by
this like um queer elder Jeff Jones who a lot
of his activism was in creating grant funding
and figuring out how to get into San Francisco
government and take some of that arts funding
and redirect it to organizations that were led
by people of color women and queer people and had
smaller budgets because all this money was going
to like the opera and you know the you know the
ballet and all these you know kind of traditional
art and he did it and then then what he started
doing was looking around and thinking okay who
are these scrappy queers that are basically
a oneperson nonprofit but don't know it and
that was definitely me and so he kind of sat me
down and was like you're basically a nonprofit
organization you just have no funding and no
money and wow let's get you let's do it and so
with his help I was able to start um a nonprofit
called Radar Productions and I ran it for 13 years
and we did lots of cool stuff we brought Sisters
Spit back under that we did a a writing retreat in
Mexico for folks who'd worked with us um so it's
like 400 people were eligible every year um we did
um like a poetry chatbook prize we were able to
give grants occasionally we just did a lot and we
ran a a monthly event at the public library that
was really really fun so I did that for a long
time and I had to let it go when I moved to LA
because our funding was so San Francisco specific
i couldn't really bring it with me and I wanted
to like wait and see like what the lay of the
land was i didn't want to like roll into town and
be like there's a new literary series in town Los
Angeles i was like what's happening you know and
um and I I did you know I did I did some things
here and there but I started really itching to do
something really like bigger and I contacted Beth
Pickens who I'd done Radar with and she's like
totally the the other half of like like everything
I am bad at she is good at she's also good at
everything I'm good at she's good at everything
like holistically but like I she's good at all
the business end of stuff and I was like if she
wants to do something with me I'll do it and she
did and you know at first I thought of doing like
a radar organization again but maybe with some
publishing this time and then I quickly realized
that to bring in publishing at all sort of meant
that like you just were doing p it like kind of
took over everything really quickly um and I've
always wanted to publish you know when I was when
I was doing Radar I like sat down with like Dave
Eggers like I remember sitting down with him on
the curb like outside of McSweeney's on Valencia and
just like picking his brain being like how do you
publish like how do you make it work because I've
always been scared of the financials of it mhm so
I I started doing that here too i spoke to some
different people about small presses like what's
the nuts and bolts of it how do you do it cuz I'm
54 now and something happened when I hit like 52
where I was like oh all these things that I'm like
I'm going to do that someday i'm like [ __ ] think
the time is now like you know not that I can't
and won't keep doing things you know for the next
decades of course I will but it it just suddenly
felt a little like maybe if you really want to
do this you really should do it right now so So
that's why I did it um I met with Hedi El Kholti
from Semiotext(e) and um they published my you know my
first book and I love everything they do and I
he's such a generous person i knew he would share
information with me but he did even more than that
what I was really stuck on was how do you how do
you print the books and make the physical books
and how do you distribute them and he was like
"Oh why don't why don't we do that for you?" But
he said it in a great French accent right like
you know um and so yeah it's wild um it's so
generous i mean we pay for it you know i I've done
imprints before i did a I did a brief imprint with
City Lights called Sister Spit Books and I also
started an imprint at the Feminist Press called
Amethyst Editions that's still going but I don't
I don't do anything with it anymore and those
were great experiences but they were ultimately
limited because I had limited like power you know
I always had to get approval for the books that I
wanted and I know I knew I didn't want to be in a
situation like that again i wanted to really feel
like I'm really this is a real press that I get to
be the the at the helm of and um and Hedi's
really into that too you know he's he's like
"You do whatever you want you know we we're not
going to do anything and then you know we pay for
everything we we have a commissioning fee for our
writers which is not an advance advances you have
to earn back commissioning fee this is just
take the money and run you start earning your
um you start earning your your money back right
away um from your royalties we're a nonprofit we
get to do four books a year one of them are these
anthologies [ __ ] was last year Witch is this
year and those are these like sort of like benefit
shows for the press um we ask people you know we
we only have a small amount to offer contributors
we do ask if they're able to for them to donate
it back to the press and it's fine if they can't
but then you know the the royalties that come in
from it just go right into the press they go right
into the next book and I was like okay that might
be a a good little source of income that we can
rely on um while we're getting started so So yeah
it's been so fun yeah oh my gosh i'm you know just
really touched by how you got to that point where
you knew that you needed to do it now and it's
been so incredible to witness what's happened
since you've opened up and started to publish
books and I'd love for you to share more about
the Witch Anthology i'm like so excited to be in
it and I'm just like so grateful to be able to be
invited to this wonderful dinner party that we're
we're all a part of and that it could benefit
dopamine and I would love for you to talk a little
bit more about this anthology because I really
want to encourage folks to get it for themselves
and to share it with their friends yeah um you
know I my idea was kind of the same as um with
the the last year's book [ __ ] which was that
you know I invited um writers that I knew would
have something to say about it not to say whether
they're [ __ ] or not they probably are but you
know they've written about sex or that there's
something to their work that I'm like "Oh yeah
for sure." But then I also asked a lot of people
who I had no idea what their relationship to that
word is i didn't know from their work and I was
really curious also to see what they would do so
I did the same with this like I I asked people who
are creative people who I knew had um you know a
spiritual tradition a mystical tradition a witchy
tradition to be in it to really ground the book in
that and then I also asked a lot of people who I
don't know what their what they think of anything
i like their writing and there's something there
that makes me think they'll have something to say
to it so it's great it's a real combo of you know
work that's coming from right from the heart of
practitioners and they're sharing like what their
journey was has been or they're sharing rituals
and things things that can inspire readers to
like do a ritual like that themselves or there's
like fiction writers who are writing something
that has like something a little mystical
a little spooky a little otherworldly to it
um this one has a lot more poetry it's really
funny it's like reaching out to people for a witch
book you get a lot of poems because poems are so
close to spells right i mean definitely this is
such a tight relationship so um this funny thing
happened when we got I'll show you we have we have
copies of the galley i mean not only are you in
it Edgar and you gave us your incredible diary
but you let us use one of your perfect art pieces
for the cover and it's so incredible i love how
it turned out it looks so wonderful oh my gosh
i'm so honored to have my art on the cover and
yeah to be a part of so many people felt Yeah and
I'm like love the people that you've invited it's
like so cool to know that we're all together and
that this is going to benefit so many people cuz
I know the power of artists and writers coming
together and witches coming together to share
our words and our energy and yeah this is such a
gift to the community and I'm definitely going to
be providing all the links for folks who want to
order it they're going to be where you expect them
so just want to let folks know that and want to
ask you Michelle is it okay if we pivot a little
bit to get some Q&A um I Yeah wonderful i um asked
folks on my newsletter um to share some questions
they might have for Michelle and a few of you
wrote to me and I'm excited to ask some of these
questions and in case you're wanting to ask a
question in a future episode want to invite you to
get on to my newsletter you can find it by going
to yourartisaspell.com and um I'm going to start
off by asking the first question here that is from
Joey Yansy and they say "I currently live in Boise
and I'm considering moving out to the West Coast
how do you think the changing economic landscape
of cities like San Francisco has has affected
underground artistic communities that were so
formative in your early writing and where do you
see today's emerging queer writers finding their
creative homes oh this is such a good question um
you know obviously the story of what happened to
San Francisco you know was national news i mean I
feel like everyone really knows and what happened
to you know New York City of course before that
a little before San Francisco I mean we lo we
lost and by we I mean like lower income creative
people like lost the cities that you know we and
especially as you know queer creative people we
need to go to those cities to find each other so
it's hard it's been very hard and at the same
time I don't want to um speak like there's not
creative people still in those cities trying to
make it work making art you know figuring it out
um on a certain level you know low-inccome people
always figure out how to how to make it work so
so there's that but you know yeah the this the
community the scene whatever you'd like to call
it is just very drastically different than when
I was there some of that is I don't want to fall
into that like well when I was young you know it
was the streets were filled with poets you know I
don't want to be like that cuz I might not know
what's happening right now because I'm 54 years
old you know so yeah I know that there are still
like young and emerging writers in the Bay Area
there's still young and emerging writers in New
York City you know so but I think like I don't
know like what's going on in Minneapolis like
Minneapolis seems kind of cool like the Midwest
there's like some stuff happening there's like
some real freaky freaky freaks out there are like
writing and making community and stuff totally
so yeah I think that um I know I don't know what
the future holds for you in the Bay Area but I
think you just have to trust that you'll find
your people wherever you go you can always if
it's not working out I don't know man you can
always flip a coin and go somewhere else that's
what I did you know is that how you moved to LA
um God I want I can't remember i don't think so it
is how I moved to San Francisco i flipped a coin
between Yeah between San Francisco in Adobe Land
which was women's land in the desert of Arizona
thank Thank the the the gods that that didn't
happen i don't think I would have been very happy
there i don't think it would have brought out the
best of my vaguely you know traumatized young self
i you know really happy where I ended up um no you
know I came to LA because really because so many
of my friends left the Bay Area because of housing
issues they came here and it was also during this
moment where a lot of people that I knew were
suddenly kind of getting involved with television
you know it was like 2015 it seemed like suddenly
maybe queer people could write for television and
you know I kind of gave that a try but it's
man you got to you need to want that in such
a dysfunctional way to stick it out i was like
I stuck it out for a little bit but I was like
damn this is stupid this is like a lot of work and
book at the end of it you know like so yeah yeah
you're not the first one I've person I've heard
that from so yeah um yeah thank you for that yeah
and I you know as someone who has lived in the
Bay and in Los Angeles I just want to echo some
of what you shared but also echo what you named
that if you're meant to find your people you will
find them no matter where you are you know and I
really believe that too yeah so I'm going to um
ask the next question this one is from Neo Indiana
and they're they want to know "What is your go-to
tarot deck?" A great question and my go-to tarot
deck is the one that's always right here on my
desk right next to me it's the Toth deck i learned
to read with this and with the Rider–Waite deck
sort of I think maybe in the same year when I was
like around 16 years old and so I know those two
decks the best and yeah I don't know i just I
really love this deck the Toth deck and because
I know it so well it's what I use you know if I'm
doing readings for other people um I also though
you know yeah I I love tarot decks and I have too
many i'm trying to not be a hoarder of them it got
scary for a minute because I had a podcast and
sudden and it was like a mystical tarot podcast
and all of a sudden I was getting all kinds of
decks in the mail i was getting like the cannabis
deck i was like "Guess who's not your audience
cannabis deck." But like I was just getting so
many decks so um yeah I had to give some away
i do have a really special relationship with
uh these two decks the Shewolf Tarot and also the
Secret Dakini Oracle and I every new moon and full
moon I do a like check-in with those two de two
decks and sort of look at like what's up what does
the next two weeks leading up to the next kind
of moon moment look like and I I really I love
those i love those a lot but you know obviously
we're in a we're in a a a tarot renaissance and
we have been for so long i don't even think it's
a renaissance anymore i think it's just this is
just like a multiverse now yeah yeah and I love
that me too i love that too and um I just want
to share for if anyone's interested i have my
deck right here i love the um Collective Tarot
it's like a queer trans tarot deck that was made
in Portland Oregon it's like the one I learned
on and so definitely can connect with that but I'm
also similar to you where like folks send me decks
all the time and definitely I'm like a multi-deck
user when I do reading sometimes i like to kind
of play with a lot of decks sometimes um but it
also yeah it can also become a problem too so I I
resonate with that as well um yeah yeah i love the
collective tarot also it's such it's such a great
deck yeah yeah okay so I have uh two questions
here from Mieke Marple um they want to know um how
does Michelle know when something is substantial
enough to become a book versus an essay or etc
that's a good question um well I guess with a book
if it's going to be a book you're going to have to
have a lot of different ideas for it right so so
I might have an idea about an essay like I want
to I want to jump into this thing but then are
there other things kind of adjacent to that thing
does that thing make you think about all these
other things like is it like a focal point and
then it branches off into all these other things
um I think that is maybe the difference you know
um between a whole Yeah between a whole book and
an essay i think you know also it's really it is
very mysterious i think you know the thing to
do is maybe is maybe just sit down and whatever
that spark is that you the story that you want to
tell the essay write it and see what happens maybe
you can't stop and it is a book right or maybe it
makes you think of all these other things and you
want to keep branching off and doing aides then
then I think it's then I think it's a book yeah
but if you're like I just want to tell this little
story and it's very more it's more compact even if
it's a long form one it kind of just has a very
clear beginning middle and end then then I think
it's probably maybe an essay i feel like it's it's
almost your call though too if you're like I kind
of want to keep thinking about about this topic or
this world like well what else is there then maybe
you know like you you can maybe make it happen
for yourself yeah that's really helpful like I'm
almost imagining it like a constellation or a web
that starts to emerge as you're writing i'm also
really like thinking about the way that you shared
earlier of how you were writing in a really like
kind of going on multiple journeys and then all of
a sudden realizing you're sitting with something
and I do feel like for myself like that is like a
way of working as an artist that I really resonate
with i think that's why I made my last episode
on nonlinear psychic collaboration because there
have been so many times where I've like started
something and I forget about it and years later
it's like hi I'm here again I'm back to like be
published now you know and like yeah so totally
totally know the flow that's so cool you know I
have um the next book I have coming out is coming
out in this fall on the feminist press and it's
a story I started writing in 2011 and I put it
down and and for years and then it Yeah exactly
it popped back up and I was like "Oh I guess I
should finish you." And now you know it has a home
I love nonlinear psychic collaboration that's so
cool yeah it's definitely been a huge part of my
practice and yeah and I think you know this will
connect a little bit what we're talking about to
Mieke's second question which where she asks um how
does Michelle know when to let a project go versus
to keeping at it especially if it's something that
you've been working on a long time and that you've
maybe been met with a lot of roadblocks that is
such a good question um okay well you know the
roadblocks thing is interesting um I think I'm
a little impatient and so that you know I can only
give you kind of a personal answer i'm personally
a little impatient and also I always have more
ideas than I have lives in which to do them so I
think when things get too blocked I kind of just
put them down and go to something else you know
because Yeah i guess like if something is really
uh what if what I guess I don't know what kind
of roadblocks if they're like external blocks that
are kind of beyond your control or if they're like
personal blocks you know like a writing block
which can feel like it's beyond your control I
guess it is but yeah I guess if something feels
too I just will try to move on to something else
that has bit me in the butt before though because
I did realize at one point I especially with
writing fiction it's very writing memoir is really
natural for me writing fiction is is harder and I
had this moment where I had these different ideas
and I just went with one of them and I was like
"Yes this is it this is great." And I wrote into
it and I was 50 pages in and then I was like "This
is wrong this is the wrong idea i think the other
one was the right idea." And then I went back and
I'm like "Okay I'm going to do this one now." And
I start 50 pages in same thing and I'm like "Oh."
Oh no the like once the like the lirance wears
off you know it's like "Oh." and and you know you
do have to if you want it to be a longer form if
you want to be more than 50 pages you got to you
got to just devote yourself to it so I do now if
I've gotten that deep into a piece like 50 pages
um I'm going to I'm going to stick with it because
I know now that my natural inclination is to to
not want to do it cuz the work's gotten a little
bit hard and I hate hard work cuz my dream job
is being a secret aist that never has to work and
can just lay travel and donate that's what I would
like to do um but that's not you know that's what
my Yeah but so I can't do that so I have to really
I have to just buckle down and push through it
and you know and that's a big that's the unfun
part of writing right is like it's really fun when
that inspiration is hot and you feel like you're
cooking but sometimes sometimes it's not like that
but you still have to to do the work and so you
just have to trust that i think that's when your
your kind of raw skill comes through readers can't
always tell that you're not super inspired while
you're writing i think they they're not thinking
about it some there are some pieces of writing
which feel so inspired obviously where you're like
wow this person was really inspired but I think
you know most books that you're reading you're
not like is this person inspired now you know they
you don't you just got to trust that it's going
to still sound good and you get to push yourself
through it yeah and I'm hearing that it's really
helpful to have at least this understanding that
there might be a moment where you're like this is
becomes work right and I'm just going to have to
slog through it yes it's about knowing yourself
right it's about knowing your own patterns and
your inclinations you know it was so eye opening
to see that I hit the same got this got the
same feeling you know at the same I was like
"Oh this is just cuz it's hard and I feel like
it's supposed to feel just blissful and easy
all the time and it's just not true you know."
Yeah yeah i can totally resonate as an artist
too that does wear off in art practice as well
and it becomes work sometimes and yeah you just
have to keep going to finish the vision okay so
this last question I feel like is connected we're
kind of talking a little bit about it uh Sophia
En asks "How does your practice as a witch inform
your writing process are there specific rituals
you engage in when you start a new project?"
Um that's a great question you know I do I do
feel like writing is you know it's it's part of
um I feel like I'm a mystical being right
and writing is part of that it's like one of
the things that I have um in this incarnation or
whatever it is um and so I do like to sort of um
tend to my altar beforehand do the things that I
like to do in my altar kind of get my altar revved
up i don't always meditate before I write but I'm
a dummy not to because it's really really great
to meditate before you write and when I teach
writing I teach a writing for witches class and
we all meditate before we write and it's awesome
you know it's really it's a great practice and I
can't recommend it enough even though I am guilty
of not doing it all the time um so yeah I like to
do that you know always having tarot cards right
next to my computer when I'm working sometimes
I'm just like is this right and I'll just grab it
and it's like oh yeah I'm working it's right you
know um so yeah sometimes I'll do that i am torn
a lot between different projects and so sometimes
if I feel kind of equal towards all of them I'll
do I'll do a reading on which one looks like it
does have the most open road the most ease the
most joy the most you know which one is is going
to kind of give back to me whether it's you know
in success or good good vibes enjoyment so yeah
I I do that I you know I like to have crystals I
mean am one of those crystal people I like to have
little crystals nearby I um it's like my fidget
spinner basically when I'm just like thinking um
so yeah I think ritual is really great i feel like
most writers creative people are sort of ritual
ritually inclined and I I have seen that happen
i've seen that manifest as a lot of superstitions
where people need their special pen or their
special notebook or I used to think that like oh
I I have to I can't write if x y and z has already
happened in the day i need some sort of purity or
I can't write at this hour i can't write at that
hour and working closely with other writers like
in retreat settings you know I mentioned that
I Radar my organization we did a retreat and
it was like you know we had somebody come to it
once who was somebody who had gone to the they'd
gone to MacDowell they'd gone to Yaddo and they were
like "Guys this is not a retreat." I'm like "Oh
whatever it is like it's like a punk house version
of a retreat." Like people were sharing beds
we're all writing around a kitchen table you know
it was very DIY but I got to really we all got to
see how each other it challenged all of us in
different ways of as far as what we think we
need in order to be creative and as it turns out
we really didn't need any of those things like
we probably needed coffee but that was really it
you know we could all work differently than what
we think so I think that it's kind of it can be
kind of great to have a ritual in place to almost
prevent you from just like clinging on to weird
superstitions that don't necessarily serve you but
also knowing that like the ritual isn't making the
writing come either you know what I mean it's like
I just think that that I think that writing and
creativity in general is so mysterious like why
does it feel great sometimes why doesn't it why
do I how did I get these ideas where are they from
that we it's really easy to kind of place like
externalize them and be like "Oh it's my lucky pen
made it all happen." Or you know what I mean and
it's like just know that like it's mysterious it's
not the pen it's somehow you you right whatever
that whatever you are it's somehow you and dress
it up with ritual because it's so nice to honor
this strange life we're living and this you know
gift that you've been given that you desire to
be creative you know do ritual to honor that
but don't feel like oh I didn't do my ritual so
now my writing is gonna suck today or you know
don't watch out for that ah such an important
distinction and yeah thank you for naming all
those i think it's so important to remember that
as a witch and as an artist and writer i think it
is so important to remember that ritual is really
important can create a container and also not
become dependent on it to know that the mystery
of creativity can show up in any place at any time
and h I could talk with you forever Michelle and
I'm just so grateful for your time yeah this has
been so lovely and I just you know as a way to
close would love for you to share how folks can
get in touch with you or learn more about you sure
um I guess you know the I guess I'm mostly active
if uh on Instagram i'm at michelleteaz m i
h e l l e t e a z and my press Dopamine Books is
also there um on on Instagram as Dpopamine Books
LA and you can see all the cool stuff that we're
doing um pretty much I have a I have a website
that I ignore and it's probably out of date but
you can email me through that so it's just like
Michelle-Tea.com or something I think yeah yay
wonderful i'll make sure to include all those
links in the description and again such a gift
to connect with you and I'm so looking forward to
our book release event and I'll be sure to also
put the info that I have for that in the notes as
well so that folks can join us when it happens in
like a month or so i think it's coming up we'll
make flyers for it soon we're like finalizing
some stuff but yeah very exciting wonderful
all right cool bye all right bye as we come
to the end of this beautiful conversation with
Michelle T I'm struck by how our artistic voices
naturally evolve throughout our creative journeys
michelle shared how her writing transformed from
those punchy five-minute performance pieces meant
to grab attention at open mics to more spacious
nuance works that allow readers to take their
time with her words this evolution reminds me
of my own artistic metamorphosis i've noticed how
my own creative voice has shifted as I've engaged
with different communities and audiences over the
years there's something profound in recognizing
that our art can be both deeply personal helping
us process our own experiences and envision new
possibilities for ourselves while also evolving to
serve different purposes as our intentions change
what feels particularly magical to me is how
art that begins as personal expression so often
becomes the bridge to community michelle's journey
from creating Zines and Chatbooks to founding Sister
Spit Radar Productions and now Dopamine Books
beautifully illustrates how creativity can gather
people together across time and space our art
becomes a spell that calls in our people much
like young Michelle standing at her fence saying
"I have books come play with me" in a world where
connection sometimes feels fragile our creative
expressions offer us a way to find each other
to build community and to locate ourselves
within something larger and yes there will
always be that dance between our most authentic
voice and our desire to reach wider audiences
that tension Michelle described between the
strange wild edges of ourselves and the instinct
to make our work more digestible but perhaps it's
within that very tension that we find our unique
magic and our contribution to the world now do
not forget that your art is a spell and that it
will change your life and the world around you
thank you so much for being here with me today
thank you for listening to Your Art is a Spell
we invite you to subscribe in order to know when
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for being here and don't forget that your
art and magic are more important than ever