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Welcome to the FM Energise Podcast by Forbes Marshall, where we explore manufacturing excellence, energy efficiency, and industrial sustainability. This show goes beyond just optimizing processes, it’s about creating smarter, more efficient operations through industrial automation, digital services, and embracing the future with Industry 4.0 and IOT.
In each episode, we dive into topics such as process control and instrumentation, steam engineering, and thermodynamics, all while keeping sustainability at the forefront. We’ll also discuss how to create a great place to work where people feel valued, nurture a culture of trust and collaboration, and inspire positive change through social initiatives & CSR efforts that align with every organization’s core values.
If you’re passionate about leading your company toward sustainable growth, improving operational efficiency, and creating a culture that empowers your team, the FM Energise Podcast is your go-to source for expert advice and inspiring conversations.
[00:00:00:06 - 00:00:19:14]
AMOD
So hello and welcome to this special conversation on innovation, where innovation is not just a buzzword, but a living and evolving practice at FUBL Marshall. I'm Amod, I had the design function here, and today I'm thrilled to be joined by a special person whose leadership sits at an intersection of engineering,
[00:00:20:17 - 00:00:28:00]
AMOD
special insights and human insights, Datta Kowakar, who is our co-CEO. So welcome Datta to the podcast.
[00:00:28:00 - 00:00:32:06]
DATTA
Thank you, Amod, it's always a pleasure to talk to our design head and get new ideas.
[00:00:32:06 - 00:01:23:21]
AMOD
We are very happy to host you. So today we really want to talk about innovation and how we sort of do it within FUBL Marshall. So we'll try to unpack this conversation with sort of three dimensions. One is how we sort of really look at our approach towards our customers and markets. The second would be our internal processes and manufacturing processes and how we sort of innovate in those areas. And third is the quintessential R&D and we will also touch upon how design plays a pivotal role within doing future ready product solutions. So before we get into these conversations, Datta, I wanted to really ask you, what do you think innovation in a company like FUBL Marshall, which is known for its engineering practice and customer intimacy means?
[00:01:23:21 - 00:02:40:04]
DATTA
I think it's a very, very challenging question to ask this at the start of the discussion. I mean, but I think the point here is that if you look at the reason why FUBL Marshall does innovation, I think it probably is going back to its purpose of trying to energize our own businesses and communities worldwide. And I think if you have to energize something, you have to have something new constantly being put into the system. I think FUBL Marshall sees innovation as a mechanism to kind of help the larger community and the business improve its operations or improve its life or society at large. And we see innovation as a mechanism to deliver that benefit. So I think the word benefit is what comes at the base of any innovation conversation in our own organization. So I think FUBL Marshall sees this as one of the ways in which we can deliver this value to our company, our customers and to our businesses also. So I think that's really where I think the purpose is really. So I think innovation for us is not just doing something for innovation's sake, but it is for making sure that we make something new that will add value to our customers, add value to our society. And we deliver something that people will really cherish for a long, long time.
[00:02:40:04 - 00:02:53:18]
AMOD
So I'm glad you sort of put it that way, because when you look at a very broad definition of innovation, what people generally understand is the world is largely very much only about products and patents.
[00:02:53:18 - 00:03:49:16]
DATTA
I think the innovation is if you look at the traditional definition of innovation, it's always been something new for commercial gain. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the being that the traditional and it's a very limited definition given where we are in the world today. I think companies need to adopt a larger, broader perspective of what innovation can add value to various stakeholders in the system, not just only customers, because eventually it will be, let's say, our own company, we have been working with, let's say, Education Institute for many years. Now, why do we do that? Because we feel that they are one of the key stakeholders of innovation. They can't be excluded. They are going to be a customer eventually. So I think the whole ecosystem has to be looked at when you're driving innovation and you can't just say that it's only customers. So I think to FOMS Marshall, I see this as a complete chain of impact that can be made if you have a broader definition of innovation, not just a restrictive one of new for commercial gain in a sense.
[00:03:49:16 - 00:04:09:04]
AMOD
So I mean, that means that it's just going beyond commercial gains and adding benefit and value to society at large. Yes. Would, this is a very nice way to sort of put across what innovation really stands for. And I think today's world, it is very important to look at it in that perspective.
[00:04:10:09 - 00:04:41:22]
AMOD
So while we sort of look at innovation as a larger perspective, right? FOMS Marshall is also known very much for its customer intimacy. And the way sort of it approaches our customers with value propositions rather than only products. So do you think that that aspect or that sort of understanding of innovation that you spoke has really changed how we approach our market and our customers specifically?
[00:04:41:22 - 00:06:39:17]
DATTA
So I think you will look at what FOMS Marshall has been doing for many, many years. In fact, is that customer has always been the center of a kind of business focus in a sense. It never been that, okay, here is the technology that FOMS Marshall has and then now we have to find out applications. So it's always been the reverse that we have been going into processes, we have been going into the industry and then saying, what does that process or industry need? What's the gap? What will they benefit from? How will they save energy? What can improve the energy efficiency? So many of these questions have actually come back to kind of define what we can do to try to conceptualize a product or service or any kind of offering that we have got. So I think if you look at our approach to let's say the market, we have always had an approach where we say that we will go and actually visit customers. The idea is, okay, it's very obvious somebody, okay, if you get business, you visit customers. But that's not the end of the story. I mean, the visit customer part is not just sitting at the purchase engineer's table and gathering the inquiry or the document that says that our guys have to go into the plant, code the plant, identify where the gaps and that is being done consistently by every engineer in the field every day. And that kind of mammoth set of data and information is being utilized by the organization to come up with new concepts and new offerings. Now, some of them might not necessarily be requiring R&D innovation in a sense, but they're constantly innovating in conceptualizing small, small packages or systems or offerings that can go into a customer plant and give customers the benefit. So I think that the concept of innovation to us is not just limited to an R&D unit sitting in Fox Marshall, but it is across the whole organization in a sense. Anybody can innovate in a sense. And everybody should innovate. It's also a mantra. But I think largely it is, how do we really innovate and provide our customers the best of what we do? So I think this is where the driving force comes from.
[00:06:39:17 - 00:06:56:07]
AMOD
So, I mean, it's very interesting that you mentioned that, you know, this sort of differentiated approach that we take. So what you are sort of mentioning is it does not only translate into innovative products within R&D, but also translates into innovation across how we approach our customers.
[00:06:56:07 - 00:07:18:06]
DATTA
You know, innovative services, for example, how do you really conceptualize? If you look at what you see there as the package, that didn't come from an R&D engineer thinking through what has been done. It came from a problem with the customer. And it came from a pharma industry where there was a reactor where you had to actually, you know, kind of provide a solution to a condensate recovery problem.
[00:07:19:06 - 00:07:41:16]
DATTA
It could come from as mundane an observation as that to something that you are doing now on heat pump, which you know is a technologist coming forward. And how do you find applications for it? So I think understanding the customer is the key to our business. And therefore you'll see that our company insists on making sure that every field engineer visits customer 18 times a week.
[00:07:43:04 - 00:08:10:02]
DATTA
Or has made 18 visits a week, which is quite a challenging task. But maybe that's the currency of our data, in a sense. And if you don't do that, we will stop becoming an innovative company because all the information flows from those visits. I'm sure that it's also being interpreted and analyzed at different points in the audience. So it's not just the field engineer who is the, but he's a starting point, he's a catalyst. And to me, that is the kind of the mechanism by which the organization thrives on this.
[00:08:10:02 - 00:08:13:18]
AMOD
So that's like an input to every sort of innovation that happens all around.
[00:08:13:18 - 00:09:15:04]
DATTA
I mean, it is a key source of innovation. I would not say that ideas don't come from other places. They do. And sometimes you may need those ideas too, because you don't have to constantly be linear, in a sense. So you can have nonlinear thinking coming in R&D, you can have it in manufacturing service, for example. You could have ideas, but all of them stem from the fact that are they delivering value to the organization, to the customer, and are they benefiting? That is the most sustainable approach to innovation. Otherwise, you might innovate on something. And we have many examples of that in our organization, where there have been innovations which have been done, as you, I would not have to tell you that, but there are many innovations that have happened which have not delivered value. And we had to kind of, but there are many which have delivered value and have sustained over years. So I think the FEMAC, for example, which you have been very much involved in, has delivered value consistently because it addressed a key need of the customer to know what is boiler efficiency and what can it do to help improve boiler operations. So I think this is, to me, the crux of the innovation philosophy that a company has, that look at the customer, make the customer the focus of your effort, really.
[00:09:15:04 - 00:09:51:21]
AMOD
So this also means that sort of this differentiated approach, right, having very close relationship with our customers, not only at the commercial table, but also in his process itself, this is also sustainable. Yes. I mean, that will sort of sustain innovation all across. So but we know all of, I mean, it's pretty well known that you need to have a good customer engagement and intimacy, right. But I feel beyond that, do you feel there is more value and benefit in involving customers in within the innovation that we do? I think we've tried that.
[00:09:51:21 - 00:10:54:08]
DATTA
I remember many years ago when I first joined the organization, we used to have something called design reviews. Yeah. And these are design reviews held for, you know, parts which are being coming out or being launched. And we used to actually at that point, when design or innovation thinking wasn't really so well developed in India, we used to invite our customers to the design reviews. So we had made our customers a part of the design review process. One might call it, no, okay, but you are giving customers too much information. But we found that at some point of time, that balances out. I mean, you might give him information, but he also feels valued and you get input, which are so valuable. So we actually developed many systems using customer inputs. And customers were part of the design and iteration cycle, really. So I remember that we had developed this whole cover computer system. And it was meant for a certain industry base. And if we didn't get those input before we launched the product, I mean, we would be hitting ourselves in the foot. So I think we benefited a great deal from defining turn down, from defining capacities, from defining systems and safety mechanisms, or what will help that. So I think customers come with very practical,
[00:10:55:11 - 00:11:20:22]
DATTA
sometimes they may say what they want. That's what the skill is, that you have to differentiate between what he wants and what he needs. But also give him due regard for what he thinks his customer plan actually needs at that point of time. So I think customers, the key part is involving them in the design cycle is a great idea. And I think we can do better with it. And I think today, although we go to customers, we don't get customers to visit as often as we should be.
[00:11:20:22 - 00:11:21:15]
AMOD
As often as we should be.
[00:11:21:15 - 00:11:27:13]
DATTA
And I think that's the idea for us to work on. I think many companies will benefit from involving customers in the design cycle.
[00:11:27:13 - 00:11:38:18]
AMOD
So innovation does not flow one direction. I think it has to be by the direction. It benefits with that interaction. I would say multi-direction in the sense I would say. So there has to be interaction for innovation to benefit.
[00:11:40:00 - 00:11:53:05]
AMOD
So the other thing, I mean, so that's the sort of access point, right? That's the customer reach and approach where very critical, important aspect of our innovation. But obviously, to get to there,
[00:11:54:11 - 00:12:16:19]
AMOD
our manufacturing and processes also have to be really capable and ready to be able to deliver that kind of innovation. I mean, if we are talking to customers a lot more, I mean, like you said, they'll sort of tell you what they want. Sometimes you also have to suffice their needs, which are here and now. And sometimes also, which are slightly more long term.
[00:12:18:00 - 00:12:42:00]
AMOD
This puts a lot of back end pressure within our systems to be able to deliver that kind of variety at speed. So how do you see that innovation aspect getting translated within manufacturing and processes, how we work together? Any sort of examples from the shop floor that you've seen that any initiative that, you know,
[00:12:42:00 - 00:13:01:23]
DATTA
what as a company, I mean, this has been, you know, I think I have been in manufacturing for the last four years now. And I think one of the things I constantly hear is, oh, there's such a wide variety of products. I mean, now, is that a boon or is that a curse? One might say from a manufacturing angle, one might say manufacturing is very limited,
[00:13:03:12 - 00:13:38:19]
DATTA
large volume. That is a traditional view of manufacturing. But I think manufacturing methodology has also changed over years. And as you said, what we have implemented now in the last four years is what is known as a cellular approach to manufacturing. That means your broad cells are laid out in such a way that you can actually adapt to different product lines if required at any given point of time. And in a given cell, you can look at a wide range of products in that range itself. So the cellular manufacturing has been one approach to kind of addressing the problem of flexibility in manufacturing. You know, you had earlier flexible manufacturing system, FMS.
[00:13:40:14 - 00:14:01:16]
DATTA
Kind of an offshoot of that is a flexible manufacturing cellular approach, which is what we have been now adopting in factories in Chacon. I hope it will expand to other factories too. But this is the starting point. Even Singapore factory, we have a cellular approach. And the idea is to use this approach to make sure that we are able to adapt to varying volumes and varying types of products coming in.
[00:14:01:16 - 00:14:02:17]
AMOD
A lot of variety.
[00:14:02:17 - 00:14:26:15]
DATTA
A lot of variety. So I think variety will be, and that's one of the indoor customer intimacy. Any customer who feels that we are making a product for him would feel extremely energized by the fact that, oh, this company works very closely with us. And then that's what we call mass customization. Mass customization. Exactly. So I think in a sense, we are trying to tackle the mass customization problem by laying out a factory in a way that will help.
[00:14:27:19 - 00:14:43:00]
DATTA
And that means support of technology also, for example. So let's say you have got a smart manufacturing system that provides data as to what's been done at what time, what kind of materials, inventory. So all that comes into play. It is definitely a system that has to be optimized.
[00:14:44:07 - 00:14:51:02]
DATTA
But it is a way of the future that customers will expect you to make the product that they want and they want.
[00:14:52:10 - 00:15:41:17]
DATTA
And it's the challenge in the manufacturing end to meet that customization requirement without feeling burdened or without becoming unproditive. So one of the things that our company is looking at is how do we improve the manufacturing productivity or the people productivity without causing all these ill effects of, I would say, burdening the system, excessive customization that might consider as a load. And I think that is something that we are doing through lean manufacturing. That means you actually have a single piece flow. As it runs through the factory, you procure material for that single piece and you actually manufacture and assemble the product and test it and set it out. So you create a kind of flow of the factory which will lead to better and more efficient manufacturing and allows you to do single piece in a sense. So that's the challenge in a sense.
[00:15:41:17 - 00:15:44:06]
AMOD
So it's like combining the best of both the worlds.
[00:15:45:10 - 00:15:57:06]
AMOD
Lean is something that you require for a very single piece mass flow, mass manufacturing. Whereas you should have taken this FM CLI or whatever the cell is and also built in variety into it.
[00:15:57:06 - 00:16:35:05]
DATTA
I'll give you an example of this condensate recovery system that you built that you designed for the sugar industry. Now what was it? It was actually you built a Taj Mahal for this customer in some part of India. But then you will build many more Taj Mahals. Now the customer who got this, a sugar plant in India, would probably think that, yes, this has been customized for him. Yes, exactly. And because the capacity, the flow rates, the number of pumps that you had in the system all were kind of matched to his requirement. But you had spent a lot of time designing it and the manufacturing spent a lot of time making it here. Manufacturing. It might be considered as a customization that you did,
[00:16:36:07 - 00:16:59:16]
DATTA
which might be in a sense considered unprotly because it did involve a lot of time spent by people at various ends of the company. But eventually it would have delivered great value in terms of what the customer would benefit from in terms of improving his condensate recovery. So that would all offset the premium that you might get for the design that you invested in. So I think there is always a payoff.
[00:17:00:16 - 00:18:18:16]
DATTA
How much do you customize? How much do you standardize in the system? Well, manufacturing traditionally is always look for standardization. Always will look for this sort of standardization. I mean, it's hyper-efficient. It is ruthless. It is important to be in a sense. But I think our innovation approach kind of says that we have to be flexible with our customers. And that's our approach actually. The ethos of Forbes National is every customer is different. Every customer should be treated with care and every customer should get his or her value. Right. So this is what drives our ethos. And therefore, we end up taking up all the design load, as you might call it, and the manufacturing kind of burden of customizing a thing. Because eventually, when I call it a burden, I probably may have used that word a little bit more often. Is that the word burden? Because it is, manufacturing is all about efficiency, all about flow. And many times, you need to customize something. You create a blip in the system. And we have any blip like this. But we think it is our culture that we should always listen to the customer. Even if it means customization, even if it means taking a little more effort to make things happen. And even deliver a solution that might need extensive site support.
[00:18:19:17 - 00:18:29:04]
DATTA
So that's been the 8,000 customers who love it. They love the attention we pay to them. And we also give them enough attention. That's what is the key to our approach.
[00:18:29:04 - 00:18:30:06]
AMOD
Enormative story.
[00:18:30:06 - 00:18:42:22]
DATTA
We don't just sell a standard product and say, now you make use of it. And if you find it useful, take it. But other than leave it. We don't do that. We actually leave it to the whole cycle. So I think our approach has been being with the customer.
[00:18:42:22 - 00:19:01:00]
AMOD
So I mean, both these approaches and manufacturing, do you see digital in sort of process and manufacturing really helping us to leverage this innovation cycle more or it sort of, it's a journey that has to be taken through?
[00:19:02:01 - 00:19:36:01]
DATTA
You mean digitally in manufacturing? In manufacturing. I think if you look at our own journey, we have been kind of last three to four years, because we're trying to make an IoT connected factory. What does that do? It only tells us in terms of how our machines are being utilized, what kind of defects have been observed in the plant. And it also optimizes the material flow in terms of how material moves. So to me, in a sense, it kind of helps define the entire manufacturing cycle of any product that you might launch. For example, let's say you launch a new product next two weeks or something.
[00:19:37:10 - 00:20:15:16]
DATTA
It will give you a good idea as to what will it take to manufacture the product in the defined timeframe. So the digitization of the manufacturing process has definitely helped us improve data, which will feed into our ability to develop new products in the future, because that is all recorded data, it's information that's available. So it will help feedback in the process and improve efficiency also at the same time. So I think towards the IoT connected factory is about creating a more harmonized system where data can be used as the point for feedback processes. And also improving our own capacity, for example. So I think if you look at an example of the new fabrication factory that we built,
[00:20:17:05 - 00:21:08:13]
DATTA
I mean, we have enough work there and enough automation that's been done with robotics and with laser cutting machines and all that. And it gives us the ability to challenge the design now. For example, you can make whatever shape you want. Whatever we want. Yeah. I mean, a normal factory would not have been able to do that. And the reason that we were investing in the technology and in the IoT connected factory is now giving you a chance to innovate in ways that you could probably not think earlier. So I also believe that manufacturing has now kind of upgraded itself substantially and given us the leverage in design, that design can now challenge manufacturing to do better. So I think this is a very nice virtual cycle that you keep investing in design, you keep investing in manufacturing and you make sure that the two challenge each other and manufacture better and design better in a sense.
[00:21:08:13 - 00:21:16:19]
AMOD
That in a sense, sort of, we remove all the most important constraints out of the value chain delivery so that now we are able to deliver more value.
[00:21:16:19 - 00:21:23:13]
DATTA
Sure. I would say that when we are designing product, of course, we should keep the entire thing that we just talked about a few weeks ago on sustainability.
[00:21:24:16 - 00:21:30:17]
DATTA
And that applies to manufacturing too. That when we manufacture stuff, we should be fairly sustainable in the practices.
[00:21:31:22 - 00:21:42:22]
DATTA
And design sustainability and manufacturing sustainability are part of the same ecosystem. So I think we should keep that in mind while we are designing or manufacturing anything in the process.
[00:21:44:00 - 00:21:54:13]
AMOD
So I mean, now moving to traditional sort of innovation where people sort of say that divisions like R&D, right? Where traditional innovation sort of happens a lot.
[00:21:56:07 - 00:22:04:19]
AMOD
Do you see the traditional R&D evolving because of how our approach is and because of the
[00:22:05:20 - 00:22:07:23]
AMOD
latest digitization also?
[00:22:09:04 - 00:22:12:22]
AMOD
Do you see innovation in R&D evolving or how do you see it evolving?
[00:22:12:22 - 00:22:19:19]
DATTA
I think if you look at the basic function of R&D, as you know, is to innovate. I mean, it's Dharma in a sense.
[00:22:20:19 - 00:22:49:03]
DATTA
I mean, it has to do that. And I also meant that innovation also happens across other areas of the organization. So it's not that limited to R&D. But R&D plays an important role of plugging into the outside world, of being able to marry the outside technologies that are available for us to choose from and to bring it into the organization. So I think R&D has a role to play there. And digitization of anything that is there is bringing us more information. For example, let's say you are bringing in information about boiler efficiency.
[00:22:50:03 - 00:24:20:06]
DATTA
Can it help you design better boilers? It would definitely. So let's say you're getting a steam trap connected to a temperature and a conductivity sensor trying to tell you what is happening on trap leakages. Will it help you develop a better trap? It would. So I think data and digitization is helping the innovation process by giving us much more intelligence that we didn't have earlier. And today you can actually see real time what we call as data that comes on a dynamic basis is coming much more in larger volumes. Now it's our ability to interpret the data and use it as a feedback loop for improving designs and our engineering is something which we have to work on. But it is an important opportunity. We should treat digitization as a tool to improve our design processes and R&D processes. And I think R&D has a role to play there. That means whatever you design today has to have a feedback loop. That means you have to have sensors embedded into your product that will give you feedback for better design. So it's a very important cycle that one should miss. That early I remember we should treat the sensors can be done in phase two or phase three. Today it was. It has to be there. I mean on day one. And that's when you start relaying information back to you which can lead to more iterative designs eventually. So I think to me the digitization and traditional R&D have actually merged together to give us and give us and customers better control on the processes. So I think that they are really both essential. I would say in this new digital world as you might call it in a sense.
[00:24:20:06 - 00:24:27:10]
AMOD
So that will also help them sort of look at future proofing innovation or products too.
[00:24:27:10 - 00:25:13:22]
DATTA
That's right. I mean it will probably tell you what the trends are in the plant for example. It will probably tell you what could be improved in the process and develop solutions that the customer may also not actually know about. So I think it is an important input to the whole intelligence that R&D would need to get of how to run plants successfully. So that's really I think a very important point that you raised about digitization and R&D and traditional R&D evolving into a digital kind of a R&D sense. So if you look at our R&D, we have a large team that works on digitalization of products. And we see that as an important future trend going into anything that we do. For example, earlier we used to pride that every product we personally go and inspect.
[00:25:15:08 - 00:25:31:23]
DATTA
The new trend is that you might not need to physically inspect and you will get data that tells you what's happening. So that is an evolving trend that will happen. That digitization is going to converge at some point in time with all our traditional practices and evolve into a better efficient way of doing things for the future.
[00:25:31:23 - 00:25:59:12]
AMOD
So do you see this sort of digitization really changing the way we offer our customers? Traditionally, it's always been for most of the engineering field, it's always been products. Yes. Do you see this sort of changing to different modes of offering and will this sort of drive further innovation forward, maybe like services or any form of services?
[00:25:59:12 - 00:27:36:17]
DATTA
We are placing big bets on the whole digital business as a company, as you know, and that stems from the conviction that if we get the right data and if we interpret the right data, we might come up with the right insights that will help the customers save much more. So we have a benefit of how can we save 10% every year in every customer's plant. And that will come from a deep understanding of the customer's plant itself. But the data that is there, which is coming from these intelligent products, would help us really build that confidence really. So I think the company does look at the digital business as a key driver of a growth in the coming years. And that is basically where this thing is that R&D manufacturing, digitization and the customer set has to all come together to drive an integrated approach to using data as a means of innovation really going forward. So I think it's not separate buckets. They were all free. So manufacturing also has to develop abilities to make digitized products. And I remember the way we are set up in manufacturing also has to be different. If we are to have competence of the right kind of having embedded sensors in a trap, for example, we have a product called mechanical steam trap. Today we have a smart trap. How does the same set of people work on the smart trap and provide the same kind of product performance and develop new expertise? So I think I would say digitization is a major thrust area and the company is placing its confidence in the future growth coming from this segment, I would say.
[00:27:36:17 - 00:27:43:00]
AMOD
So I mean, so we spoke about digitization, manufacturing, customer approach and R&D.
[00:27:44:16 - 00:28:11:01]
AMOD
But as we all know, Ford National also has been an early adopter of design. Yes. Very early. I think it should be more than 30 years when design was barely known within the country. So I mean, why would be the first question? And do you see over the years, it's sort of evolving as a catalyst of innovation just in R&D across the organization or?
[00:28:11:01 - 00:28:17:13]
DATTA
So I think I joined this organization 35 years ago. I mean, the first person I met was a designer from Stanford.
[00:28:19:03 - 00:28:26:20]
DATTA
So I mean, at that time it was really quite unique that to a company, an engineering company, a traditional engineering company.
[00:28:26:20 - 00:28:28:24]
AMOD
Even today it is unheard of.
[00:28:28:24 - 00:28:37:23]
DATTA
Well, today it's at least it's much more talked about, at least implemented not in a different matter. But at least at that time when I joined the organization 35 years ago, it was quite unique.
[00:28:39:01 - 00:29:08:16]
DATTA
But at that time, the ethos was that design is a powerful mechanism to provide very elegant crafted products to the customer. So it was really coming from that angle. How do we make our engineering products look neater, better, elegant, and they can make the customer feel that he's got a high quality product made in India. So I think design provided that kind of platform for Forbes Marshall to really invest in design because getting designers from the US at that time was not easy.
[00:29:09:17 - 00:29:34:18]
DATTA
It was not easy from an administrative perspective as well as from a cost perspective. The company was that large. We had to do it. And we did get many good products and more than the products, it actually instituted a learning that how do you make good quality, greatly crafted products. And this culture of how the intolerance to bad design got ingrained from that. I'm not saying everything was perfect.
[00:29:35:19 - 00:31:03:00]
DATTA
It's taken many years. Today if you look at what we're doing today, I think it has come a long way in terms of where we have started from. Today if you look at most of our products, there's an element of design thinking in each of those products. It's reflected in the way they are manufactured. It's reflected in the way they are proportioned in a sense, the way they are painted. It's a lot of thought that has gone into it. And I think this care and thought has come over years of investment in pushing design, the design approach in the minds and feelings of our members. I would say and whether in design, R&D or whether in field or whether in manufacturing, I think people have absorbed that need. It can be greatly improved. I do believe that we can have eons of improvement in what we do, but I think they have come a long way. I think so. I feel particularly happy that when people look at design today in Forbes Marshall, we kind of match most advanced economies in terms of design. The challenge is how do you sustain that? How do you build on it? How do you build that intolerant culture for poor design practices in every aspect of the organization is something we have to keep plugging in. It's not an easy win immediately, but it is a culture that we have to keep building on. So I think design has been and will be the ethos of what we will constantly be pushing today.
[00:31:03:00 - 00:31:15:06]
AMOD
It definitely is a catalyst. Like you aptly put it, it sort of transformed the culture over the period of time with the designs that you sort of put in.
[00:31:15:06 - 00:32:04:06]
DATTA
There's one more point that I want to mention about the need finding. The whole idea of the design instituted a very important part that you cannot design product without doing need finding. Remember, you used to have this constant kind of push that how we done need finding for this product and what have we found, what are the insights, how we missed something out. So this kind of insatiable thirst for knowing what the needs are is one of the key aspects of a design process. And I think we have tried to make that much more visible in our design of a product. And that to me is one of the key areas also which can differentiate Forbes Marshall from the rest of what is happening in the industry is that we are designing product that customers would need. Not just want today, but need for the next three to five years, for example. So I think this is, I would say a differentiator.
[00:32:04:06 - 00:32:26:00]
AMOD
I'm good that you sort of pointed out. Need finding, it's not just like only the tangible needs. What we've been doing over the past years is not only look at tangible needs, but also look at intangible needs, which eventually add a lot of value that we spoke about. So I think that is something that need finding also.
[00:32:26:00 - 00:32:45:10]
DATTA
It was truly that you must have heard also of the flash jet pump. That customers are buying not because it functions as a condensate pump, but because it just looks good. I mean, now that's the story that is going on the market that some customers buy FJP just because it looks nice. And it can be placed in the factory to make their customers feel more interested in the factory.
[00:32:46:13 - 00:32:48:10]
DATTA
So it's a good design.
[00:32:49:14 - 00:32:52:14]
DATTA
It's elegant, speaking for itself, it's sophistication speaking for itself.
[00:32:52:14 - 00:32:56:22]
AMOD
I think that's a good thing. And that's also a good example of intangible needs converted to a product.
[00:32:56:22 - 00:32:59:23]
DATTA
That's the intangible need of a customer to feel better about his plans.
[00:32:59:23 - 00:33:00:17]
AMOD
Why not?
[00:33:02:15 - 00:33:05:04]
AMOD
So when you speak about design and innovation,
[00:33:06:12 - 00:33:15:03]
AMOD
a primary aspect to it is mind shift change. We could do a lot of things as tasks as a part of innovation.
[00:33:16:04 - 00:33:50:16]
AMOD
But what really makes the largest impact is these mind shift changes within people who are doing it innovation, not just within R&D, but also within our manufacturing, also within our people who are customer facing. So do you see that there is a mind shift change over the years towards innovation, may it be due to design thinking, may it be because of systems engineering or anything, but how do you see the mind shift change towards innovation? And what's the impact of that largely?
[00:33:50:16 - 00:34:25:17]
DATTA
I think there are many forces that are driving this change. One is, of course, the fact that we have to survive in a highly competitive market. I mean, earlier many years ago, we were the market leaders, and we are still the market leaders. But there are other choices customers have. So I think we have to respect that. Let customers have choices. And if we do not provide them with the most optimal choice that meets the needs, we would probably fail in the market. And we haven't done that. So we haven't failed in the market. And this is why we haven't failed because we are constantly kept in touch with the customer.
[00:34:26:17 - 00:35:47:03]
DATTA
And that need has actually been ingrained into our system, in a sense. And it's kind of across the entire organization that it has gone into. So I think I would say that we, in a sense, believe that there is great merit in ensuring that this whole innovation thing is the mindset shift, as you called it, would kind of percolate to everybody in the organization. But everybody wants to be in learning in a growing organization. And therefore, I think over the years, as I've experienced it, I think the sensitivity of our members towards good design, towards good practices that increase sustainability have been enhanced, actually, and got better. So I think that it's not that we can claim victory, but we are much better than most many companies in our business. So I think we should pride ourselves in the fact that our members are definitely exposed to good design practices. They're living in an environment where they see good design. Of course, when you go out on the road and see the portals, you may not feel that way. But it's a thing that has a dichotomy that has to be addressed in India. Because you see lots of things outside of your factory, and then you come to the factory and it will build world class products.
[00:35:48:04 - 00:36:18:03]
DATTA
So I think there's a lot of work to be done without doubt, as India as a country and as a society. But at least from a company, and we always said that we are trying to be a developed company in a developing country. So within that, we feel the environments of our system boundaries. I think we are trying our best to change the mindset and improve that. It's a work in process. I won't say that everything is perfect. But I think I see an improved focus on design, design thinking, getting better at producing high quality products,
[00:36:19:11 - 00:36:55:08]
DATTA
and being intolerant to poor design in a sense. And not just in design R&D, in the sense, or let's say, in our design teams, in manufacturing or in service. So people have become much more aware of what is good. And see, today with India being open to the world market, you have exposure to what's available across the world, I'm saying. So that's another force that is acting on consumers in the sense, and our own members in the sense that they are seeing good design come to India. So their needs and their expectations are also going up. And that's all for customers too. Customers also expect great design.
[00:36:55:08 - 00:36:55:20]
AMOD
Great design.
[00:36:55:20 - 00:37:12:01]
DATTA
I can say that I'll view what I made 20 years back today, and you expect to sell it better. You will not. So you will have to evolve. I mean, the mindset shift has to happen, and it's happening. So it's a mandatory thing that you have to live with the changing times. It's you can't live in the past anymore.
[00:37:13:08 - 00:37:15:02]
DATTA
You learn from the past, but don't live in the past.
[00:37:15:02 - 00:37:15:15]
AMOD
Yeah.
[00:37:16:15 - 00:37:17:08]
AMOD
So I mean,
[00:37:18:10 - 00:37:22:17]
AMOD
full muscle is also very well known with the term process energy conservation.
[00:37:23:22 - 00:37:47:24]
AMOD
And sustainability has sort of everyone knows sustainability is going to be the next big thing that will drive maybe growth in the coming years. Definitely there are a lot of targets on sustainability. Do you see full muscle poised with the background of energy conservation and sustainability driving innovation in our sector, chosen sector?
[00:37:47:24 - 00:38:23:00]
DATTA
So I think if you look at the basic kind of the deliverable for business is delivering energy savings. To me, that's the lowest hanging fruit of any sustainable strategy. I mean, we can design many things. You can do many more things for sustainability. But to help improve the energy consumption will help reduce the carbon footprint of the product. I think by design of a business, I think we're already in the business of ensuring ourselves against anything that is non-sustainable in a sense. So I would say that's firstly, but not resting on those laurels, I would say.
[00:38:24:02 - 00:38:28:20]
DATTA
We have to do a lot more in reducing the carbon footprint of our own manufactured products.
[00:38:29:21 - 00:38:47:03]
DATTA
So that's an important part, whether it's a choice of material, whether it's a choice of the quantity of material that you use, the kind of packaging you do, the kind of colors and paints you use. Processes, maybe we use. So all that will have to go through a lot of optimization process. And we are right now in the starting point of process where we are really looking at each product and saying, what is the carbon footprint of that product?
[00:38:48:04 - 00:39:23:20]
DATTA
And that is a process that has started. And I think it's without doubt that going forward, if you had to get net zero that we are talking about as a country, 2070, we are to be net zero. As a company, we are saying we should try to be net zero earlier and not wait till 2070. So the sustainability strategy is intrinsically integrated by business strategy, where we are saying that we must save customers 10% every year, every customer. That by itself says that we are trying to be sustainable and trying to reduce it. Now, one can say that energy efficiency is one piece of the sustainable strategy.
[00:39:23:20 - 00:39:24:14]
AMOD
But very important piece.
[00:39:24:14 - 00:40:07:05]
DATTA
But it is the most available tool available to customers to do it at the most cost effective way. So it's a lower-sanging fruit. So I think while we should definitely have more exotic stuff like carbon capture and sequestration and many things that are going on, the interesting technology, and we are going to be part of it, remember. But we should not get diverted from the fact that there are many small things that can be done to harness sustainability in Indian process industry or even the global industry, wherever we are. That will remain the need. So how do you get regular energy savings from everyday processes? And that is a big contributor.
[00:40:07:05 - 00:40:30:22]
AMOD
I mean, with sustainability as a goal that we have also taken up internally, I think it's going to drive a lot of innovation not only within product, like you mentioned about carbon footprinting and how we can look at materials differently, how we can look at our manufacturing processes differently. I think that will also be going forward a big source of innovation going forward.
[00:40:31:23 - 00:40:34:01]
AMOD
So I mean, on this whole background,
[00:40:35:11 - 00:40:40:23]
AMOD
where do you see phone muscle innovation heading in the next 10 years?
[00:40:40:23 - 00:40:45:09]
DATTA
You're trying to make me into nostalgia, but I'm not sure of that answer. But I would probably say that.
[00:40:46:16 - 00:40:50:03]
AMOD
At least which direction you would see. So let's
[00:40:50:03 - 00:41:09:02]
DATTA
say what we are trying to look at is an holistic view of the process of the customer and then saying that, OK, what will it take to deliver a wholesome energy saving package, not just looking at aspects of it. So I think even that we are rightly placed in terms of having a combined knowledge of instrumentation and steam,
[00:41:10:10 - 00:41:36:02]
DATTA
can we provide customers with a complete solution for this plant? So we can become the customer's energy manager in a kind of way that says that, OK, we'll not just look at his energy footprint, look at his carbon footprint, look at his water footprint and we try to provide business solutions that can lead to an overall sustainability solution for his plant. So I think we might, in a sense,
[00:41:37:14 - 00:41:53:11]
DATTA
become the sustainability partner for a customer's strategy. And maybe at this point, we see it as thermal energy being the blame. That's where fossil fuels get consumed. But it might lead to other things, which could lead to process improvements, process efficiency, process technology.
[00:41:54:11 - 00:43:04:13]
DATTA
These could be all offshoots of the key part, delivering energy efficiency in a holistic way to customers going forward. That I think would be the next 10 years. And design, I think, would play a key role in identifying the needs of the evolving plant. So when it's today's food and beverage plant, it would be quite different from a food and beverage plant 10 years down the line. But if we are able to create that technology trajectory of that plant today, we might build those parts now. And it may take time to insert them into the plant again. But that's the process of design. But I think our designers would need to invest a lot of time in the searching of the future trends in those industries and plotting the sustainability strategy that they would adopt, using that as an input to the design process. So I think design will have to play a key role. Design, in a sense, technology will have to play a key role in defining and designing those parts as we go into the future. So I think next 10 years, I would see that we would increasingly become a bigger partner with our customers to be an important and critical part of the input process for their own strategies that they're driving sustainability in their plants today.
[00:43:04:13 - 00:43:10:16]
AMOD
So what you should have sort of implying is that design should actually look at more look at needs,
[00:43:11:21 - 00:43:28:19]
AMOD
identifying needs, all both intangible and tangible needs. And then the technology should be able to evolve in a sense that which can add more value and to be able to suffice those needs. And so both are going to play an equal amount of share.
[00:43:29:20 - 00:43:37:00]
AMOD
I mean, all the goals, may it be sustainability goals, may it be energy conservation goals, which should be...
[00:43:37:00 - 00:44:16:11]
DATTA
Absolutely. So I think they are going to be important. I think the whole idea of closely working with the customer on sustainability is, I think, a very good way. And I think we started doing that in many industries now. And not just energy, but water. So both energy and water would be the thrust areas in the future for any process plant, really. The other thing is like, you know, process efficiency, yield, safety, all the things that anyway get captured into our design processes. But the aspect of making sure that we are minimizing material consumption, either is water or energy, would be an important part of our designer's toolkit going forward. So I think I would say that there's a lot of scope there.
[00:44:18:01 - 00:44:41:00]
AMOD
So it looks like sustainability is going to be our biggest driving factor in all the things that we do. And going forward, even customers sort of demanding, trying to achieve their sustainability targets. So that will be a driving force for our sort of innovation, which can be fueled by technology and design work.
[00:44:41:00 - 00:44:54:08]
DATTA
Last week, we had a visitor from the US who came and talked to us about how we are designing plots and I think we added sustainability as a opportunity and not as a constraint. So I think the language has changed now.
[00:44:54:08 - 00:44:55:19]
AMOD
I think that's the mindset shift.
[00:44:55:19 - 00:45:10:03]
DATTA
The mindset shift that we are looking at. How do you shift from seeing that as a constraint earlier? We used to see that, okay, if I have to be sustainable, I have to reduce material consumption. How do I do it? Will I meet the pressure temperature requirements? Today is not the case. Today we think we definitely will meet that.
[00:45:10:03 - 00:45:12:20]
AMOD
So sustainability is an opportunity and not a constraint.
[00:45:12:20 - 00:45:26:13]
DATTA
So we have changed the design process, you know, that we are now made sustainability as the overarching umbrella under which we operate with all those criteria of design that we have. So I think it's a good mindset change that we are trying to drive within our own technical team. So it's a good thing.
[00:45:26:13 - 00:45:40:04]
AMOD
So innovation definitely has to start with, I mean, if you want to sort of do innovation, it has to start with customer and mind shift change. I think it's good that we sort of touched upon both, you know, how to sort of interface
[00:45:41:14 - 00:45:52:03]
AMOD
with our customer and how sort of innovation really sort of picks up the start point and then how sort of to deliver innovation, you really will need a mind shift change. Sure.
[00:45:52:03 - 00:45:53:23]
DATTA
And it's a discussion of another time, I think.
[00:45:53:23 - 00:46:01:08]
AMOD
Yeah, maybe we can have another time where we can discuss more in detail specific certain sections of innovation.
[00:46:01:08 - 00:46:01:19]
DATTA
Sure.
[00:46:01:19 - 00:46:09:07]
AMOD
Remember, it is fun chatting with you. We could manage to touch upon many aspects of our process. So thanks a lot.
[00:46:09:07 - 00:46:10:09]
DATTA
And pleasure talking to you.
[00:46:10:09 - 00:46:19:12]
AMOD
I hope you've gained some valuable insights out of this discussion. Make sure you subscribe to our channel and this podcast will be available on all other broadcasting platforms. Thanks a lot.