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Join us as we explore the dynamic world of higher education at the University of Aberdeen. In each episode, you'll hear insightful discussions with educators who share their practice, highlighting what worked well and what didn't. Whether you're an academic, supporting teaching and learning, a student, or simply passionate about education, this podcast offers valuable perspectives and thought-provoking conversations to keep you informed and inspire you to try something new. If you would like to contribute, please get in touch with the Centre for Academic Development as we’d love to hear from you.
INTRO [00:00:03] This podcast is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:00:11] In this episode, we're joined by Alan Greve, lecturer in the School of Education. Alan talks about his experience of engaging with tester programme level and what the process revealed about assessment patterns, feedback and opportunities for change.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:00:28] So thank you so much for coming along. Um, I guess maybe launching straight into when your school made a choice to, to engage with TESTA. Was there any specific issues or challenges that you had thought this might be something that could help towards?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:00:45] Mhm. So one of the key purposes of us engaging with TESTA was really to get an external voice on our assessments. So we are still in the process of building towards re-accreditation with our program with the General Teaching Council for Scotland. Part of that is engaging with different groups, different stakeholder groups certainly, but also trying to get a range of different voices on things like assessment. So one of the key purposes for us was, was, was to do that and it was a great opportunity for that.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:01:18] Fantastic. Um, so having gone through it, was there anything that- was the do you have any surprising findings when you came and went, “oh, we hadn't seen that or thought of that!”?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:01:30] Um, not particularly. Our programme is quite small it's a one year programme and so we have a smaller range of assessments compared with maybe a, you know, a four year undergraduate program. Um, it was quite reassuring, actually, to hear a lot of the successes that we were having with our assessment. Um, and for, you know, a lot of that good practice to be recognised. And I think one of the big takeaways for us is perhaps less what's surprising, but more these are some of the key things we're doing really well. How can we continue to do these or how can we develop these things further?
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:02:01] Fantastic. Have you- I mean, obviously you've, you've just completed TESTA quite recently, so you've probably not had enough time there to see whether any changes that have been implemented will make, make any difference. But have you had any, um, feedback from staff or students about their experience over, or whether they're seeing that is likely to make any improvements?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:02:25] Yeah, trickier for students because we only have students for one year, so the students that we'd have engaged with this process, we don't have anymore. They've headed off, hopefully successfully into the teaching profession. Um, certainly with staff, we have been using a lot of the outcomes from the report as part of our processes as we go. So, for example, recently we've had our standardisation process for our first assessment. And so we were reflecting on some of the key themes that came out of the TESTA report. Again recognising some of the good practice from that, but also thinking “this was something that was highlighted. We're doing this well, but how can we do this a little bit further?”: for example, about how we deliver the feedback in our assessments and thinking about could we use audio feedback in some way, uh, through the Turnitin process as part of our assessment feedback?
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:03:09] Fantastic. Um, so if you were, um, asked to go and speak to another school who was maybe thinking, “why would we do this? What's the advantage for us? It's just a lot of workload.”, what would be your…
ALAN GRIEVE [00:03:26] Yeah. Um, and I think we had those concerns, I suppose, um, early on. And I think the CAD team were really good at speaking about the step by step process of, of how it works and explaining that it really was a co-constructed process. And I think that was one of the big takeaways for us that we really wanted that - we didn't want, though we wanted the external voice, we didn't want necessarily it just to be “here's what we've reviewed of your assessment, and we think you should do X, Y, and Z”. It was a really collaborative process, and I think particularly if programmes are engaging in a lot of internal processes anyway, to review assessments and to engage staff and engage students.
I think it it complements that really quite well. So it isn't a significant increase in workload. It's, it's alongside the things that I think most programmes would already be doing.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:04:18] Mhm. So I mean you've obviously gone through a round of TESTAlike you see now reviewing and reflecting and making those changes. Is it something that you would consider doing again in your School? And if so what sort of frequency do you think it would make sense to do it?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:04:35] Yeah, that's a good question. I think that would be different for different programmes. So we have a lot of one year programmes in the School of Education. So the one that I am connected to, the PGDE Secondary programme and my colleagues in the PGDE Primary programme also did the TESTAand process at the same time. And one of the things that we were able to do was share that process more widely in the School of Education, and suggest to other programmes that this might be something they're willing to engage with.
I would think for programmes that have, um, a professional re-accreditation process like us, aligning it with whatever that timescale is makes sense. For us that's that's six years we would be doing that, and that worked out well. And this time around for other programs, maybe doing it every three years perhaps, would make sense because that gives it a chance to do the TESTAprocess, reflect and think about what the outcomes are from it. Maybe try to implement those and then be able to meaningfully reflect and engage with the process again.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:05:31] Mhm. Yeah I mean I think that sounds really sensible. That's one of the things when thinking through that, that um repeated thing.
Do you- I mean obviously we're asking things like if we're looking at the future, do you feel that um, uh, on that rerun, if you were doing a second time, would you want the same type of support that you got the first time, or would you want the School to take more control, or how would you envisage that happening?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:06:00] Um, no, I think for us, I think the balance of the external rule versus us internally would probably be pretty similar. I mean, as I said, the big value of it for us was that co-constructing of the report and of reviewing the data that came out of it. So I don't think that balance would need to change. Particularly, I think that, um, as long as there's a bit of flexibility. So if one program felt that there had been maybe significant change and that they particularly wanted more of, uh, uh, an in-depth review, perhaps of those changes to assessment, then maybe the balance would shift slightly. But I think that, um, the balance wouldn't need to change too much.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:06:40] And in your School's experience of TESTA... So we've had, um, we trialled test in a few different Schools now, um, we've had varying levels of success in engaging the students with the process. Um, in particular, getting the students to engage with things like the questionnaire, how did that go in your School?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:06:57] Yeah. Well, that's, that's the battle with, with everything isn’t it? Whether its course feedback forms, or SSLC meetings with Class Reps, it's part of the challenge and one that we certainly promote to students that we value hugely because their feedback,particularly for us on a one year programme is really, really important because, you know, it does meaningfully make change going forward.
I think for us, the key thing was the timing of that student process and really thinking carefully. Our program has an on campus taught element, and then they go to placement and then they come back to campus and so on. So I have to think very carefully when to time a lot of things in our programme. So something like this, it was really sitting down and looking at the timeline when it would be most appropriate for students first of all, and then when it would be of most benefit for us in terms of getting the most amount of responses. And, and there were quite a few responses in the end, certainly a meaningful enough number in order for the process to work. So I think the timing is the key thing to consider.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:07:58] Mhm, yeah. And we, we also got some students talking to us about their experience with, with TESTA.And I think that is one thing that comes up from them also is the timing and “when you ask us, we want to help. We want to be part of this. We want to contribute to our education”, but we've got be cognisant of their diaries.
ALAN GRIEVE [00:08:17] Yeah. And I think it's okay to be transparent with students and try to sell processes to them and say, you know, “this is why we are doing this process. This is what we want to get out of it. You are a key role in that”, um, and I think it's, you know, it's okay that that we do that as long as we're as long as we're clear about it.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:08:34] Mhm. Um, just scanning through some questions because we've actually covered loads of them in your fabulous answers anyway!
Um. Okay, so I guess we sort of touched on it a bit. Looking forward now, what would you say are the next steps in your School? Um, for- in terms of not so much the TESTA- but that sort of assessment strategies. Where do you see your School going from here?
ALAN GRIEVE [00:09:14] Yeah. So, so practically um, as I mentioned, it's going to feed into our re-accreditation process, which will happen in 2025 with the GTCS. So from a practical point of view, that's, that's the major step I suppose that's coming next. And then I suppose otherwise it's just thinking about where are the opportunities in every year when we're engaging in internal processes, where there are opportunities to continue to reflect backwards onto some of the key recommendations in our report. Try to continue to remind those to tutors and try to highlight those when we're in maybe SSLC meetings with students, trying to highlight that we have had this process happen and we've had this external voice come in and this is what they said “do you feel like this is still happening?” Could we do this better going forward?”. So although we won't necessarily be doing a full TESTA, a process I suppose, and we will certainly be engaging with similar key elements of it on an ongoing basis.
KIRSTY KIEZEBRINK [00:10:11] I mean, that sounds absolute ideal, almost like taking the principles of TESTA on, carrying them on in the background. That, that approach is fab.
OUTRO [00:10:27] This podcast is brought to you by the University of Aberdeen.