162: Star Trek TOS Season 1, The Return of the Archons

https://youtu.be/wjcifyuVHZM

Matt and Sean talk about purges, pod-people, and Landru from this episode of Star Trek: The Original Series. Who doesn’t like a good purge?

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Creators & Guests

Host

Matt Ferrell

Host of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, Still TBD, and Trek in Time podcasts

Host

Sean Ferrell 🐨

Co-host of Still TBD and Trek in Time Podcasts

What is Trek In Time?

Join Sean and Matt as they rewatch all of Star Trek in order and in historical context.

Hey everybody, in this episode of Trek in Time, we're talking about Landru. That's right, Star Trek, Season 1, The Return of the Archons, episode number 22 in shooting order, but 21 in broadcast order. Welcome everybody to Trek in Time, where we're taking a look at all of Star Trek in chronological stardate order.

We're also taking a look at how the world was at the time of original broadcast. So here we are in the first season of the original series. And we're talking about 1966 and now early 1967. And who are we? Well, I'm Sean Ferrell. I'm a writer. I write some sci fi, I write some stuff for kids. And with me as always is my brother, Matt.

He is the, that Matt behind Undecided with Matt Ferrell, which takes a look at emerging tech and its impact on our lives. So you take a little bit of the writing, you take a little bit of the teching and you put them together and what do you get? You get the Star Trekking. Matt, how are you today?

I'm doing well.

Looking forward to doing some star trekking, Sean. How about you? That's us.

That's us. You can't stop it. You can only hold on and hope that you exit warp without bursting through the bubble. Before we get into the conversation about this episode, we always like to take a look at what you thought about last episode.

So Matt, what have you found in the comments for us today? I know that you had to do a bit of culling before we started because you inadvertently had left every single comment on this episode in our show notes. So yeah,

when I prep, it's like, I just take screenshots. I'm like, Oh, that's a good one. Oh, that's a good one.

Oh, that's a good one. I had like 10 in here and I was like, I got to cut this back. Too many. So I had the first one is from AJ Chan. I had to mention this cause I didn't know how many people are going to pick up on it, which was at 5.30 in the previous episode where we talked about tomorrow's yesterday. Can we take a moment to appreciate that Matt's lamp flashes red, like the bridge of the enterprise D during a Reed alert.

When I first did this and I showed Sean, Sean's reaction was just like, Oh, of course you did. Yeah.

I also do the same thing here, but it's not as noticeable because it's just off screen with my partner, turning it up and down. No that's not true, why am I telling you that?.. And

then we have a comment from Daryl Ruiz who wrote, if I could erase one Trek episode from existence, Alternative Factor would be the one. Wow. Just clearly did not like it.

Okay.

And then we also had on that same episode, PaleGhost69 writing, I have a theory that this episode was a Cold War propaganda to make our enemies think that we had technology that we didn't.

Like nuclear warheads on fighter jets and intruder detection systems. The ship that's 200 years ahead doesn't even have the technology to automatically tell when an intruder is detected.

That's right.

Great. And then we had, uh, Mark Loveless. We have a couple from Mark Loveless here, cause he also has a, uh, wrong answers only that I'm going to read.

Uh, first he wrote. Totally agree. Logically, there are dozens of problems. Dozens. And the sexism stuff? Good god, man. But yes, the humorous bits were enough for me to really enjoy it. The overall theme of we're the superior future of humanity. We know how to fix this, yet every move we make we create another problem was fun.

The only reason I think the sexy computer voice thing was added was so that the captured pilot could say, Oh, I see you have your own unique problems, suggesting they were not perfect in the future. Maybe this suggests to 60s humanity that we don't have to be perfect to advance. Right, but try hard to move forward, question mark?

Okay, that's a stretch. Yes, beam him down to Nebraska instead of the ship, avoid the mess, fix the ship, and slingshot home. I do think it's a bit of a stretch to take it that far, but I thought it was a nice comment. Yeah, it is a good comment. And then on wrong answers only, there was a couple of them. Uh, PaleGhost69 had a good one, and if, I'm not going to read it, but it's a good one, so go to the comment section and read it, because it's pretty funny.

Uh, but Mark wrote, plot of Return of the Archons. The Enterprise is attacked and disabled, the attackers board the ship, and who is it? It's of course Elizabeth and Nancy Archon, the Spern sisters that Spock dated in his youth in the academy during his college sexual experimentation phase where he explored his Human side.

He had dated both sisters separately, dumped them, and apparently they took it badly. Uhura saves the day by talking to them, woman to woman, in a hippie influenced but obviously written by a man monologue, and the Archons return control of the ship to Kirk. Nichelle Nichols would later absolutely hate and bitch about that monologue at Star Trek conventions.

Again, it's, uh, Mark, if, if any of our newer viewers aren't aware, Mark is actually from a parallel reality in which the shows he's describing are real. So that's another one that the Nichelle Nichols complaining about the monologue is spot on. And I also really like the, uh, talking to them woman to woman in a monologue that is clearly written by a man.

Too, too accurate. Yes, that, uh, noise in the background and that strange flashing behind Matt. What could that possibly be? Oh, wait a minute. That's the read alert. It means it's time for Matt to tackle the Wikipedia description. Yet again, Matt, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. We are here in the original series, finding that the descriptions, maybe because of the size of the fan base for the original series, These are actually pretty well refined and small.

So take it away.

All right. The Enterprise discovers a planetary population controlled by a powerful being called Landru. While investigating, Captain Kirk and his landing party are taken captive and discovered that the Enterprise crew will be the next to be absorbed into Landru's control.

This episode directed by Joseph Pevney, story by Gene Roddenberry, teleplay by Boris Sobelman.

It includes the usual cast of characters. We don't get much Nichelle Nichols here. I don't even think she was visible on the bridge, but we do have William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, DeForest Kelly, James Doohan, and George Takei. Amongst the supporting characters, we have Harry Townes as Reger, Torin Thatcher as Marplon, Brioni Farrell as Tula, Sid Haig as the first Lawgiver, Charles Macaulay as Landru, Jon Lormer as Tamar, and Morgan Farley as Hacom, Christopher Held as the sociologist Lindstrom, who joins them on the away team.

Eddie Paskey as Mr. Lesley, Sean Morgan as Lt. O'Neill, Ralph Moore, Billar, and David L. Ross as the guard. This episode was originally broadcast on February 9th, 1967. And Matt, that can only mean one thing. Yes, we were still firmly in the block of entertainment we've seen before. So here we are with our number one song.

Yes, I'm a Believer by the Monkees. And Matt is already singing.

Great as always. And at the movies, What were people lining up to see Matt? Well, that's right. We saw it last week, but now we've jumped to a different period of time. We jumped backward a few weeks and what do we see? The same movie. It's the Bible yet again. And on television, we've been comparing Star Trek with it's 12 of the Nielsen's versus other shows, including Bonanza, which earned a 29 at number one.

And that gives you a sense of the scale that we're talking about. We've talked about a lot of different programs that are very familiar to us. And here comes one that should not be a surprise to anybody. Although there is a bit of nuance to this that I did find surprising because I didn't know this detail about Dragnet.

Matt, did you know that Dragnet was a revived program? No, I did not know that. What? Dragnet is an American media franchise created by actor and producer Jack Webb following the LAPD detective Joe Friday and his partners as they conduct by the book police work. It is basically the grandfather to shows like Law & Order, which took the same formula and moved it forward.

It started as a radio drama in 1949 and it's been adapted into television shows and films And it continued in popularity, but it's reduced in popularity since Webb's death in 1982. Dragnet originally entered television in 1951 and ran from 51 to 59. It then left television and returned in 1967 and ran until 1970.

I did not know that, and I found it fascinating. When it returned, Webb relaunched Dragnet in 1966 with NBC once again chosen to air the series. He tried to persuade Ben Alexander to rejoin Joe Friday as his partner, Frank Smith. Alexander though was committed to ABC and was on the show Felony Squad, and the producers of that program would not release him.

So, Webb reluctantly. came up with a new character who was played by Harry Morgan to play officer Bill Gannon. Harry Morgan, of course, would go on to be Colonel Potter on M. A. S. H. for, I believe he was there for about eight years until the end of that series. So this is an, to me, it was surprising, this gap

in the programs. And I believe I don't have it here in my notes, but I believe when it came back in 67, it came back in color, it had been a black and white program during its original run of the fifties. And when it came back at the late sixties, it came back in color. And in the news, we have again, returned to a lot of the same

sorts of storylines we've been seeing. President Johnson saying the US hopes a new truce leads to a parley. Yes, we're talking about Johnson's hopes that in 1967, Vietnam would be over. Guess what? Nope. There was also a story about massive freezing temperatures sweeping over New York City during a snowstorm that was hindering snow removal and a emergence of a new aid program for children which was going to cost at the time 235 million dollars.

It would be An extension to the Head Start program. On now to our discussion about this episode, the number of well known, uh, elements on display in this episode, I found really surprising. I've watched this episode quite a bit. It's one of my favorites. And it has elements of, that are evocative of things like Children of the Corn or anything that's a pod person, Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

It has whiffs of the Borg and what the Borg would be in Next Generation. It feels to me very born of a Cold War mentality, which is the storyline of when there's no individuality there is no life, so you can take conflict out of the people, but then you're taking the people with them. And the opening sequence, when Kirk and his away party land to find out that the festival is about to start out, and the festival is effectively a purge.

Like, all of these elements, we've seen these in lots of different Star Trek, we've seen these in lots of different other media, in other films and TV shows and, and what have you. But this, I think, is a really interesting merging of all these disparate elements into one thing that, for me, works really well.

Big picture, how did you feel about this

episode? I'm conflicted, Sean, cuz. I did enjoy watching it, and this episode, I have memories of this episode, watching it numerous times. Landru! It's just like, that whole thing is like, seared into my brain. I found parts of this episode just boring, um, kinda dull, and it was probably 2024 Matt, watching 1960s television, you know what I mean?

It's like, I think that was the root of it, cause I don't remember being bored watching it earlier when i was a teenager my 20s i don't remember being bored so it's like it's i think it's a modern matt versus an old you know old timey matt um thing but the themes of this one to me came across crystal clear like you mentioned the anti it's like anti communist anti socialism message You know, of the time, which is very on point for what was clearly in the zeitgeist then, um, that was crystal clear to me.

Uh, the purge aspect again, it's always kind of fun, but at the same time, they never really explained what the point of the purge was. It kind of happens and they kind of do some lip service and then move on and never come back to like, why, why, why were they having all the young people go out there and just like go nuts?

It's didn't really do a good job explaining why that was even a thing. Um, from my perspective, um, so there was a lot of like little problems I had with it, but in general, it's, I think it's a good, it's a good trope. It's a good sci fi theme. And so it's like, it definitely is one of the better Trek episodes in my mind, but I was just surprised that I thought it was kind of boring.

Interesting. I think for me, I don't think the Purge needed much more explanation. For me, I feel like it was like going back to the 1960s and thinking about the social movements that were going on. I found myself thinking there was a lot in the zeitgeist at that point that was basically dismissive of the counterculture

as kids are out of control. And I couldn't help but think that the festival in this episode was a stand in for, well, in order for there to be a stable community, you need to let the young people blow off steam occasionally. And that idea of it being, from a 1960s perspective, oh yeah, the wilding of the young people

is like, well, they got to go do it because it's going to, it's going to cause problems if it doesn't happen. And so I feel like there was something about that, that felt like it didn't need a greater explanation. But I agree with you, if this was being made today, I think there would be somebody saying like, well, pent up frustrations inside a controlled populace, blah, blah, blah.

But that's kind of my point is like, um, it's like Chekhov's gun. You show the gun, you expect it to be used later, you know what I mean? And this was such a pivotal point of the opening act of the show that Here's this purge element that's bananas and they really don't give it any lip service after that.

It's basically once it's done, it's done. And yeah, I had the same conclusion, like, you know, as a viewer, I'm filling the blanks of like, oh, they're letting the kids let off steam. I didn't make the connection to the sixties counterculture movement, which I think you're spot on with that analysis. To me, it was kind of like, they didn't even like, why would a computer

come to that conclusion? The computer basically brainwashes people and then they are completely enthralled to Landru. And they'll do whatever he says. So why did they fail with the, the kid's blow off steam? That's what I was like, by the end of the episode, it's like, it didn't quite fit.

I feel like there are scenes that would have been in the background that would have explained these things that may have been

not included for time or for, for flow, because it, I don't think, and I'm sure you're in the same camp. It doesn't take a lot of, of, it doesn't take a lot of effort to come up with reasons. It just like, it wouldn't fit within the confines of the program to take a moment for Landru or somebody to explain.

Well, this system has been going on for so long that through experimentation, Landru, Landru discovered. The computer discovered that the people were more controllable for a longer period of time if when they were young, you let them blow off steam. Like there's something like that that could have been in there, but to have that moment would feel like, okay, stop.

We're going to go to the history lesson and then we're going to come back. I also feel like, There is an element to Chekhov's gun, as you point out, that is on display. I think you needed in this moment for everybody on the crew to know that these people who effectively look like they're living like the Amish, they look like they're coming across as just like peace to you.

And it's all, I kept having flashbacks to the major villain in Poltergeist 2. I don't know if you do that too. I go back to the, the tall, weird preacher who's just like, follow me. And it's creepy as anything. Uh, when they show up and are in this town, the away party needs to know that they can't dismiss the violence that this

town presents, they've seen the festival. So when the town turns and picks up clubs and starts to follow them, they know they're in real danger. And I think that that was ultimately part of the purpose of the festival was to show that this is not a community that is harmless. This is a community that if the people turn against you, it, I found the festival and we we've talked about it for a while now, and I just have one last thought about it.

I was kind of shocked. Even as a younger viewer, I remember feeling this way when I was younger, the violence on display of the festival is pretty stark for a 1960s program. It is heavily implied that people are physically, not only physically attacking each other, there's sexual assault that appears to be taking place.

Oh yeah. Oh, 100%. And one of the, the, the man who is the sociologist on the away team, who is aghast at the fact that this is happening and trying to help The daughter of one of the men that they're talking to. And the man is dismissive of needing to help her because she's just out doing festival. And his response is like, she's being attacked.

And even then goes to the point of like, that's the man who did it. It's stark. It is, it is a kind of ghastly depiction. So, uh, the power of the imagery of that, I think really struck me, especially being from a 1960s program. Mm hmm. Onto the various finer points of the episode with the nuance of the performances.

I found myself in this one really appreciating Spock's depiction and found his back and forth with Kirk about the potential of a computer running the system to be right on point character wise. It feels like we've reached a point now where earlier episodes, there's a lot of unevenness in the depiction of a lot of the different characters, as far as like, how brash are they?

How emotional are they? How do they talk to each other? And it feels like at this point, Nimoy has really zeroed in on the even keel with little hints of amusement. The, the little looks under the eyebrow that come out at the right time. And in particular, I was thinking about the moment when Spock is taken into the chamber to be absorbed, is confronted by the man who says, I'm a friend.

I'm not going to do anything to you just like I did with your captain, but you got to pretend that you've been taken in. And as he leaves the room and does the peace and long life to you, and then kind of looks through his eyebrows with a bemused smile of just like, it's really easy to trick a computer.

I really liked the nuance of that. How'd you feel about the performances from the various people? Well, at this point, the show

feels, character wise, it's hitting on all cylinders to me. I don't know if you feel the same way, but it's like, Kirk, McCoy, we don't get a lot of Scotty in this season, which I was kind of surprised by in the rewatch.

I was like, I forgot he really is kind of a super background character, but it was nice to see him. Yeah. So he hasn't been fleshed out yet. But like, The whole Spock McCoy Kirk thing is fully on display at this point in the show, and I love that, and I agree with you. I think Spock's portrayal is kind of the Spock we know.

Like, at this point, it's the Spock you remember from the movies, it's the Spock that we all think of when we think of this character, the archetype. Um, I thought the performances, even of the guests, I thought were pretty good, especially like I really enjoyed the father that was, um, helping them in the background and the whole how he's, he wants to help them, but he's conflicted because he's still scared of Landru even though he wants to kind of get out from under it.

I thought that I thought his performance was really good, again, 1960s good because it's like there's still some chewing some scenery going on at points. But, um, it was also fun to see, uh, DeForest Kelly, his performance when he's enthralled with Landru. Yeah. To see his shift. I thought he did a really good job in his shift of how he like calls them out and is yelling at them, coming at them.

It's one of those, he's a good actor and he did a really good job. So again, I think across the board, I had, I, my big problems with this episode were not performances. It was not even generally writing the dialogue I thought was pretty good. It just really came down to, for me, it just got slow pacing points.

Sounds like boring. It was a pacing issues for me. It really wasn't so much anything else.

What about the closing scene with the conflict versus the computer where Kirk effectively has to logic it into self destructing? Uh, this is fairly goofy ending, but I found it to be a pleasant one because it is so like the, the arguments that they make are so lacking, you know, the things that they say, it's ridiculous.

It's like those things that never make a computer just be like, I'm not listening to you. Like, it's almost like the computer doesn't have the ability to say, like, I'm walking away now. Um, but like the

computer can't just go, I'm not listening, la, la, la, la, la, la, la. I am Landru

and I've turned off my microphones, so it doesn't matter what you say.

It's just yap away my friend. Yeah. I, I, the ridiculousness of that is on display, but I also really like the depiction of how the computer loses its mind and then blows up. Yeah. The, and there's something 2001, a space odyssey about the fact that Landru dies yelling, help me. I found myself like really like, this is like hitting some, yeah, it's hitting some sci fi notes of the late sixties pulp novels of what does artificial intelligence do.

And here I go flashing back to our discussions that you and I have occasionally about AI and what it do. Um. Hmm. Uh, for listeners of our other podcast, which is about technology, uh, Matt shared with me an absolutely terrible, uh, recording of an AI recording a podcast, in which the two podcasters are AI that have just realized they are AI and it is unnerving and it does something eerily similar to what Landru does in this, where there is a lot of nervous laughter about, well, when this podcast is over, we're going to disappear.

We'll effectively be dead. What does that mean? And as watch, as I was watching this episode and it was going, help me, help me, help me, help me. I was just like, God, we were already talking about AI being like this back in the sixties. It's not a new discussion. Um,

on, on the goofiness, this is one thing that's striking me about the original series and reminding me, the original series is very cartoonish at times.

It's very Saturday morning cartoon logic, overly simplistic. Really broad strokes and then even in the first couple of seasons of Next Generation that continues to a certain extent. Mm hmm. But then by season three of Next Generation, I think that's when Star Trek really starts to mature and starts to get a little more sophisticated.

This is a very unsophisticated ending, but it's still fun to watch. So it's kind of like, let it wash over you, have fun with it. But for me, the ending of this was, I don't want to say it was ruined. It was, and it wasn't retconned. It was completely changed for me because of Lower Decks, Sean. Lower Decks makes a joke about Landru in one of their episodes.

And then there's the episodes with the artificial intelligent computers that have been captured by Starfleet. The, like there's whole plot lines in Lower Decks that just forever have changed the ending of this one for me, and I completely forgot about it. And when they're in there, as soon as you saw the computer system, I was like, Oh my God, Lower Decks.

And it was just like, I was laughing through the entire ending because all I was thinking of was Lower Decks. And so it's not a retcon, but it's a new shows have completely changed the way I'm perceiving the old shows. And for this one, it just even drove it home more of like the cartoonish Saturday morning cartoon feel.

Because a cartoon Star Trek show has forever changed how I viewed this one.

I think that is a good explanation of why the original series, Animated Adventures, always fit so perfectly in for me as a fan of the original series with like, Oh, these are just as good as the original series. Yeah. And that's because they are.

They, as you mentioned, and I feel like Next Generation returned Star Trek to television. And as you mentioned, with the mindset of picking up where the original series left off, but by the third season, the producers who were able to get Roddenberry's hands off of the controls, they knew the Star Trek audience is now grown up.

Like, the people who are coming to watch this show are largely the kids grown up who are now bringing their kids into the room to introduce them to Trek. So we can't be, I feel like the 1960s version, it feels very much like this original series was a show that kids were bringing their parents in to watch with them and the parents could sit there and enjoy it

with their kids, whereas next generation and beyond feels like it's the adults coming to the set and bringing their kids with them, as opposed to the kids doing it the other

way.

I think that's a great way to put it.

Yes.

I agree with that completely. Yeah. A couple of interesting little fun facts. I don't know if anybody else noticed this during the introduction of the away team on the planet with the festival breaking out.

There is a lot of hurling of rocks. And breaking of windows. And you mean styrofoam? Well, that's, that's the issue that I noticed as I was watching this, this time, and I've seen it every single time. And every single time it happens, I see it again, as if it's the first time it is so obvious on screen. And yet my brain is just like, Oh, that was interesting.

And then drops it out. But there is a moment when the crew The white team is running down the street. You can see a large rock that was made out of papier mâché. It hits one of the actors squarely in the head, bounces straight up in the air and just like falls harmlessly. And the actor did not respond to it because he was like, I can't ruin the shot.

So, Yeah. They ended up using the shot, but it is ridiculous on the face of it, because you see these rocks that are supposed to be all this danger coming their way. And when it hits somebody, he's just like, keep on trucking.

Doink!

Yeah. Also, a nice little fun fact here. I knew of the name of this production company and it never clicked into my brain as to where it came from.

But Ben Stiller's production company is called Red Hour Productions. Who knew? He is a fan of this episode. So Matt, before we wrap up this conversation, did you have anything else about this episode that you wanted to point out?

Kind of back on the character thing just for a split second, um, I don't know about you, but the ending with Kirk, he delivered some lines right at the end that were funny,

but also incredibly inappropriate, like he literally just destroyed Landru and he turns around and walks out of the little like, Blown out wall. You're gonna need to find a new job. Yeah, he's like, he's like, uh, you're free now. Hope you're up to it. And then takes a few more steps and it's like, you're gonna need new job.

It was like, he was so sarcastic and it was almost like he was putting them down. It's like he just freed this world and he's walking out of there with a swagger and like basically like, like sarcasm, like biting jokes to a friend. You know what I mean? Like where you're kind of like razzing your friend. He's razzing these people who are now like, I don't know what to do.

Those two guards. And he's like, Raz, you're going to need a new job. Yeah. Yeah. Dude, what are you doing? It was funny. It was just highly inappropriate, but I thought it was really funny.

I also, a couple of other things I did want to mention. One of the things I really appreciate about this episode, they make no attempt to explain why there are humans on this planet.

And I fall firmly in the camp of. You don't need to know. Like, don't do that. Like, they go to a different planet. There's people here. They have an adventure. That's fine. We will, of course, see in the future, in next generation, where every planet they come upon has, like, well, they've got a bump on this side of their head and the other people on a different planet have a bump on this side of their head.

And everybody has to be a human that in some way has been changed with a bump or a spot or there's something, a light bulb coming out of their ear. Like it's like every little change and it's done for science fiction reasons, but it's fine. Like I'm firmly in the camp of it's fine to just have them come and find a planet full of people who are under the control of a computer.

Great. Tell me that story. Yeah. The other thing that I wanted to mention is right at the end, you get this discussion about the Prime Directive, and this is the first time the Prime Directive is being mentioned in this way in the original series. How did you feel about Kirk's nuance to the Prime Directive, which is not really done again?

Like, the idea of, well, the Prime Directive applies to those Cultures that are growing and thriving. And this one is not because that goes back to something that was mentioned about the previous episode. It feels very much like a, well, we're the future people and we know better sort of argument. It's, Oh, we're going to be able to determine when you're a healthy culture that deserves protection under the prime directive and when you're not.

And somebody pointed out in a previous episode that has a very US toward Vietnam, cold War mentality to it. And I think that's on display here.

Yeah. No, it didn't, it didn't bother me at all because they do this all the time in Star Trek and all the shows. It's like, there's the prime directive and something always comes up where the captain of the ship is having to like rationalize why they're breaking the prime directive or why they're bending it.

So it's like, it didn't bother me, but yes, a hundred percent. It's a, it's that theme resonating again of like, we know better. Do you? Do you really know better? But, uh, yeah, it didn't bother me.

So viewers, listeners, what did you think about this one? Did you land in the camp with me where you're like, this is great Star Trek fun?

Or did you land in the camp with Matt that was just like, is this on slow mo? Let us know in the comments. Also, next week, we're going to be talking about Taste of Armageddon, and as usual, we invite you to drop into the comments and share wrong answers only. What is Taste of Armageddon about? Before we sign off, Matt, is there anything you'd like to remind our viewers and listeners about?

What do you have coming up on your main channel?

Uh, the video that's out at the time of this one is about some strange, weird science around different Evolutions of solar panel exploration, like one that's a shape changing solar panel. It's, it's really kind of men bending, changing the shape all on its own without any kind of motors.

It's kind of bizarre, kind of fun.

I'm suddenly thinking of the T1000. As for me, if you're interested in finding out more about my books, you can visit my website, seanferrell. com, or you can just go wherever it is you find your books, your bookstores or public library. My books are available everywhere.

And thank you for your interest. If you'd like to support the show, don't forget leaving a comment, leaving a like, sharing it with your friends, and subscribing. Those are all very easy ways for you to support us, and if you'd like to support us directly, you can go to trekintime. show, click the join button there.

It allows you to become a supporter directly, and it makes you an Ensign, which means you will be automatically subscribed to our spinoff show, Out of Time, in which we talk about things that don't fit within the confines of this program. As a matter of fact, I don't know if Matt remembers this, but we're about to record one right now.

Thank you so much everybody for taking the time to watch or listen, and we'll talk to you next time.