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Your weekly dose of drug facts while dispelling fiction
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You're listening to locally produced programming created in KUNV Studios on Public Radio. KUNV 91.5. Welcome to another episode of the Chemical Collective.
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The Chemical Collective offers you your weekly dose of drug facts while dispelling fiction. Today we'll be discussing the San Pedro cactus, its active compounds effects on the brain
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and its use in the past and present.
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I am Dr. James Joseph Hines. I'm Kendra McLaughlin and I'm April Contreras. So, let's start us off. I think we're talking about San Pedro and I think San Pedro is a cactus. So, tell us more about it, April, and where does it come from and what's it
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good for? San Pedro is a fast-growing cactus species native to the Andes
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Mountains in South America, specifically in countries such as Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Chile, and Argentina. Its scientific name is Echinopsis pachinoi. Its original native name, though, in the Quechua language spoken throughout the Andes is huachuma.
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And there's other strains too. There's the brigidesi and a couple other ones that I think kind of get grouped into all the same family. So what does it look like? I mean, cactuses to me can be big flat things, little round things, all kinds of stuff.
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What do they look like?
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So, San Pedro is a highly variable species and different types of strains have been identified based on differences in their morphology, chemical composition, as well as their geographic location. Some of the most common strains of San Pedro include what's called the classic, there's There's also lumberjack or the macrogonus. But the classic, it's more so columnar with light and dark green stems. It has a diameter around six to 15 centimeters with about six to eight ribs around it. Found often without spines or with it. And it's known to have a fast growth and have high alkaloid content. And then the lumberjack, this strain is known for its thick, sturdy stems, and it's often used in things like landscaping or horticulture. It doesn't grow as tall as the classic and may have less spines. And then the last one, the macrogonus, this strain is known for its larger and more round stems, and it is sometimes used for higher mescaline content. Now, someone worth mentioning is the Peruvian seed and cactus seller, Carl Canis, who has cultivated and crossed various strains of San Pedro to get the KK242 Trichoserias cascanes, which has a high content of the psychoactive component mescaline, which produces some of the plants' endogenic or psychedelic effects. There's often overlap between different strains and some plants may exhibit characteristics of multiple strains. Yeah, one of the things I know online
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is that people are always just like, mushrooms, is this a magic mushroom? People are trying to identify, is this a type of San Pedro? Which probably the most common misconception is something called the Texas fence post which is a kilometer cactus. So it's really hard for us to understand what is San Pedro and what isn't truthfully. So when did people start using San Pedro, April, and what were they using it for?
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Well San Pedro has a very rich history. It's been used for a really long time by indigenous peoples of the Andean region for both medicinal, spiritual, and religious practices. And this dates back thousands of years, even to the pre-Incan times, the Chavin civilization. And some of the earliest evidence of San Pedro use comes from the Chavin de Huantar, a Chavin archaeological site in northern Peru, where numerous artifacts related to San Pedro cactus use, including decorated ceramic cups, have been found. And San Pedro is a sacred plant in these cultures, and was traditionally used in shamanic ceremonies to induce altered states of consciousness and facilitate spiritual experiences. And its Roman Catholic name, San Pedro, or Saint Peter, was given after the Spanish occupation due to Saint Peter being the saint that holds the key to heaven. And San Pedro continues to be used by indigenous peoples in the Andean region today, and it's also gained popularity in other parts of the world as a plant medicine for healing and
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personal growth.
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So was there some dissent then, obviously, when the Roman Catholics came in between them and the indigenous people? people or what what did that period look like when people were using it in their indigenous sacraments and then also the I guess probably some sort of Jesuit
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priest started using it? Oh well there is some the colonization really set back the use of San Pedro cactus maybe the use kind of became underground but since
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then. Well that must be an amazing testament to the plant and the chemicals that it persevered that and actually helped change another religion. So that's absolutely fascinating. Can you provide some examples of how it's prepared? And remember this isn't something we should do, it's
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illegal, but go ahead. Correct. San Pedro Cactus is typically prepared by cutting the stem into slices or small pieces and then boiling or simmering them in water for several hours to extract the active alkaloids that I hope we get to talk a little bit more about later. But the resulting liquid has been strained and you know consumed as a tea or
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decoction. So we're just boiling we're not macerating it's just a tea like you
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say? Yeah you can essentially strain it and avoid all of the excess... Spines! That's what I would be worried about. Yeah, there's pictures online of like how the pulp kind of turns this color I've seen and you can strain it with various types of strainers to get
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as much of that extra plant content out. Okay, so I'm confused here. Pulp, is this the outer part of the cactus, the needles, the green part, the inner part, the core, what is being used in all of this?
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Well, they take when you look at it online and you cut it, kind of the shapes are star shaped. So it contains both the outside and the core, but then when you strain it, you're really trying to get that outside sheath removed.
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The green part with all the outcuts, that makes sense. Okay. So how has the use of, and we've kind of already heard this with, you know, indigenous practice and then Roman Catholic practice, how has the use of San Pedro changed over time?
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Yeah, this really circles us back to that. You can really divide the cultures and traditions and many different protocols and rituals surrounding the use of San Pedro between like pre and post Spanish colonization of South America. And so, in pre-Columbian times, San Pedro was considered sacred, right, using shamanic and religious ceremonies, largely to promote healing and provide spiritual insights and guidance. That's a really important key factor that's still implemented today. Then with the arrival of the Spanish, the use of San Pedro was suppressed and stigmatized as part of the colonization and conversion efforts. But San Pedro use has persisted as an important cultural spiritual practice among indigenous peoples. But then today in the Western world, there's kind of a shift in how San Pedro is being used, it's kind of evolved to be more individualistic and therapeutic. People take it for personal growth, largely, and exploration, seeking its psychedelic effects and spiritual insights. But recent scientific evidence and research is looking at mescaline from San Pedro and treating various physical and mental health conditions. But largely the common theme is that in using this plant and other plant medicine,
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it should be approached with respect and intention. You know, it's interesting. I Do you guys know of the shaman called Wokova? No. He was a Nevadan. So, I don't know. He owned the land before we did.
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Let's start off with that.
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And then when people sort of colonized this area, he was doing this really heavy kind of breathing that we would call, April, you've talked about this. What is the breathing called?
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Like, holotropic breathwork?
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Yeah.
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What does holotropic breathwork do?
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It's this patterning of breathing that kind of, like meditation, can help you reach this elevated state.
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Yeah, you can hallucinate on it. So Wachova was doing this thing, I believe it was called the ghost dance or the spirit dance, and they would take peyote also. And then when Christian settlers came in, they banned it outright. So interesting to me, even at different times, people have said, well, this is a really powerful thing to do. We should adopt it versus this is evil. We shouldn't do it. So it's interesting how people even kind of in the same time period can approach indigenous people and practices differentially. Crazy. So obviously we've said there's alkaloids. Obviously we said you can hallucinate and trip and it has all kinds of benefits. So, one of my favorite questions, what are the effects, Kendra, of San Pedro in the brain?
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San Pedro contains several psychoactive compounds, including mescaline, which is responsible for the psychedelic effects. So mescaline acts primarily as a serotonin receptor agonist, meaning it binds to and activates serotonin receptors in the brain, leading to those altered states of consciousness that we've been talking about. So sensory and perceptual distortions and changes in mood and thought. So in the brain, serotonin is highly involved in many processes among increased activity in the visual cortex, leading to enhanced visual perception and color intensity. We see changes in the mood and emotion, feeling specifically around euphoria, happiness, and empathy. We also see altered perception of time and space leading to those senses of timelessness and expansiveness. There's changes in thought and cognition, such as increased creativity, insights, and introspection. And then there have been some lots of possible neuroprotective effects, as mescaline has been shown to have antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties
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that may help protect the brain cells from damage. Very cool. And so serotonin is big in mescaline. I know there's other, I will probably get that to a second, but probably also thought to be some cholinergic and trypimenergic also. So I guess that kind of leads me to my next question. What other receptors are affected by mescaline.
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Yeah, and so when we think of mescaline's effects on the serotonergic system, particularly serotonin receptors, we're thinking of the serotonin receptor 5HT2A, right? It's thought to be really responsible for the psychedelic effects, but of the many other serotonin receptors, mescaline isn't just acting on 5HT2A. It kind of acts on other ones, including the 5HT1A and 2C receptors, which is really interesting when you look into the research of how psychedelics are eliciting their long-term therapeutic effects. This is something of debate. And of the non-masculine compounds found in San Pedro, there's a naturally occurring monamine called tyramine, which appears to be responsible for its sympathomimetic effects. And this is what helps stimulate the sympathetic nervous system to increase heart rate, blood pressure and respiration. Respiration, yeah. And overall, the San Pedro's effects on the brain are complex and involve interactions
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with many receptors and neurotransmitters.
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Yeah, and I think back to those monoamines too, you know, mescaline is a little different than a lot of the other psychedelics and there's a lot of mescalitos, that's to say people that do mescaline, that really like the slow rise dopaminergic effect. So these monamines are also acting on a lot of dopamine, DAT receptors and G2, which is kind of cool. Again, an example of polypharma where you have kind of a dirty drug hitting many different receptors, but somehow it's just amazing. So we're kind of talking about mescaline. And when I think about mescaline, I think about peyote. So what's the difference between San Pedro or peyote?
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Yeah, that's a great question. San Pedro and peyote are both cacti that contain psychoactive compounds, but they are, they do have several differences between them. So a fall between the botanical differences, geographical differences, we see some chemical as well as cultural and traditional differences. As far as the botanical differences are concerned, as we mentioned earlier, the San Pedro is a large columnar cactus that can grow up to be several meters tall, while peyote is more of a small button-like cactus that grows very close to the ground. In the geographical differences, San Pedro is native to the Andean region of South America, while Peru is native to the southwestern US and Mexico. And then in the chemical differences, we see that the primary psychoactive component of San Pedro, like you just mentioned, is masculine, while Peru contains several psychoactive compounds, including mescaline, as well as others such as hortonine and tyramine and in meclomescaline. Something that's really important to highlight is San Pedro mescaline contents do rival that of peyote, which is great because it grows much faster and may help alleviate some of that burden on peyote. And then lastly, the cultural and traditional differences. San Pedro has a long history of using shamanic religious ceremonies in the Aidean region, while peyote is an important sacrament in several Native American cultures or churches, excuse me, in the United States and Mexico.
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What about the Pachanoia, though, that would be in that macro-grownness category that you mentioned earlier? Would they be a lot more similar to peyote? Have you seen those, like when you go to Lowe's or something like that, they're the little cactuses that kind of look like a flat brain or they're all kind of folded in on themselves a million times over?
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That's an interesting point because they look very similar to peyote in their color and those like ribs. So I wonder if it would be, is it a hybrid then?
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Yeah. And I'm not a botanist, let's start off with that, but it suggests to me, just like our brain that grows really slow, right, and we get all these folds in our brain, compared to a brain that grows really fast and it doesn't have those folds, probably there's a higher concentration of the mesclun because it's a slower-growing cactrus, like the Macrogonus, compared to the Claminurs that just take off and grow feet, feet in a year. Okay, so what are some common doses and their effects? And again, I always throw the caveats, don't do this. Every cactus is going to be different from each other, so these are all really bad ideas.
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Yeah, and the effects of San Pedro can vary depending on the dose, individual sensitivity and tolerance, and the setting and context in which it's used. And a lot of these doses are found from multiple sources. A low dose would be about 25 to 50 grams of fresh San Pedro cactus, or 10 to 20 of dried cactus. And this dose can produce mild effects, such as relaxation, an enhancement of mood, and a subtle shift in perception. But if we increase to a more moderate dose, 50 to 100 of fresh or 20 to 40 dried San Pedro. This dose is going to start producing those more intense effects including visual and auditory hallucinations, your changes in perception of time and space and profound shifts in your mood and thought. And then we go to a higher dose 100 to 300 grams of fresh San Pedro and 40 to 80 grams dried. This is going to be producing very intense effects, including ego dissolution, profound
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spiritual experiences, and intense hallucinations. Does San Pedro have effects on other neurotransmitter systems besides serotonin? Because we were talking about tryptamines, tyramines, amines in general.
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Yeah, it does. While the primary psychoactive compound in San Pedro is mescaline. It acts primarily as a partial agonist for serotonin 5HC2A receptors. It also has an interaction with other neurotransmitter systems that include dopamine and norepinephrine. So mescaline has been shown to act as a partial agonist for dopamine or D2 receptors, meaning it can bind to and activate this receptor to some extent. This interaction may be responsible for some of the euphoric and stimulating effects of San Pedro. But additionally, muscline has been shown to increase levels of norepinephrine in the brain, which is a neurotransmitter that's heavily involved in arousal, attention, and that fight-or-flight response. This may contribute to some of the physiological effects of San Pedro, such as the increased heart rate and blood pressure that April was talking about earlier.
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Yeah, and selfishly, I can tell you this is one of the reasons that Mescaline in the Lab and other kind of analytes of mescaline that we use, we feel are really important because they're not just activating the serotonin system. For things like PTSD, which I think we'll talk about in a second, right, if you're able to access that norepinephrine at the same time, you can open up those circuits related to trauma that have been closed off. So this is something that is very specific to San Pedro, which is very cool. So does San Pedro change cognitive function or memory or attention?
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Yeah, there is some evidence in research studies that indicate that the mescaline in San Pedro can alter your memory. And this is really important, right, in treating post-traumatic stress disorder, which a hallmark of it is intense flashbacks that can really disrupt your daily life.
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What do you mean by flashback? So an example would be someone going throughout their day and being triggered by some sort of event, sound or noise, and kind of being taken back to that moment where they experienced some trauma, perhaps.
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For sure. So earlier we were talking about Tarantino films and there's about one or two flashbulb moments in every one of those films that takes up space in my mind. I think that's what it's like, something where your amygdala is highly activated and you see somebody dancing around somebody else with a straight razor, Tarantino-esque, very scary. These flashbulb memories are very episodic and they're something that we don't really have a lot of privilege to, meaning we can't access them. They come when they want to and that's not necessarily a good thing. So what are, because I heard 5-HT2C and some other things which always makes me think, oh tummy troubles, what are some of the effects of San Pedro on the rest of the body? Some physiological effects
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of San Pedro include changes in things like heart rate, blood pressure, you see dilated pupils, sweating and nausea, vomiting. These effects may be more pronounced at higher doses.
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I bet you they're even there at low doses because I don't know if you've ever nibbled on a cactus, but they, well, Nepalese, those are great. There's a reason that's the only cactus we eat. Everything else tastes terrible.
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And that's so interesting that a lot of these plant medicines like psilocybin they involve, and ayahuasca ceremonies, they really kind of involve this purgative experience, getting rid of those parts of the plant.
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What's the first animal that we talk about in Intro to Neuroscience, the most basic animal there is that has a brain? Oh no.
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It's a worm. A worm, so you're like.
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So yeah, the first animal is a worm and it has a brain. So the first real brain is your gut. The first thing you can be is a little tube that moves through the environment. We're really just little tubes that move through the environment. So that's where all our serotonin is. Is San Pedro considered addictive?
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This is something that I think is really interesting when we are talking about psychedelics, right? Someone wants to throw that word addiction out. But there's limited evidence that suggests that San Pedro is addictive at all.
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Yeah, in fact, I've seen evidence the other way. There's a lot of evidence showing for indigenous cultures for years. When we brought Catholicism, we also brought another ism, which was alcoholism. And there's a lot of evidence that peyote and mescaline and San Pedro are not curative but really helpful for alcohol use disorder. How long does it take for San Pedro to take effect?
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The onset of effects for San Pedro can vary depending on the method of consumption and those individual factors that we always talk about. But some of the estimated onset times for different methods of like oral consumption of raw or dried cactus can be anywhere between 30 minutes to two hours of ingestion. And that's with that peak experience occurring around three to six hours after ingestion. Three to six. Yeah, but the effects can actually
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last like 12 hours. Low and slow. Low and slow. That's a long time. So that's a long time. And then when I think you're taking something over a long time, like when the original cannabis dispensary was opened up here, people were taking edibles, feeling nothing, taking another edible, feeling nothing. And an hour later, they were in the ER because everything hit at once. So is it possible to have bad effects or even overdose on San Pedro?
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Yeah, it's possible to have negative effects, but overdose is rare. It's like super rare. I can't really express this enough. Any of the, like, uncomfortable effects, like nausea and diarrhea and elevated heart rate, like we just talked about,
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are most pronounced at very high doses, right?
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Yeah, and that's probably why overdose is rare, because if you get too much, your gut says, I'm gonna get rid of this. Are there any health risks associated with the long-term use of San Pedro? And some of these questions, you know, we have to ask for every drug, but I don't really think there is a long-term San Pedro users, but if you were to use it every day all day long, would there be health risks associated with it?
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Again, limited research on the potential health risks, but there's potential concerns have been raised specifically on the effects of mescaline, which clinical trials... Which are backed up by science. Yeah. But there's no evidence of psychological or cognitive deficits and no long-term health associations further to that.
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OK, so it's a cactus. Is San Pedro scheduled as a substance in the US?
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The plant itself is not scheduled. You can walk around Nevada and find San Pedro cactus kind of all over the place and we've been talked about how they're used for like landscaping but the mescaline within it is schedule one controlled under the Federal Controlled Substances Act meaning it's illegal to possess distribute or use except for authorized
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research purpose. So it's a lot like the poppy you can grow poppies in your backyard but as soon as you start picking them and making tea then you're instantly a felon and same here I guess as soon as you start cutting the cactus and drying it out and ingesting it. How is San Pedro regulated outside of the United States?
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In some countries, San Pedro and mescaline are classified as controlled substances and are illegal to possess or use without a license or prescription of some sort. In other countries, the legal status of San Pedro is less clear, and it may be legal to possess or use the cactus for traditional or religious purposes. So for example, in Australia, Australia, sorry, Australia, mescaline and San Pedro are listed as schedule nine substances under the poisons standard, which means that they are considered to have no therapeutic use and are prohibited from import, export, manufacture or supply except for certain authorized purposes such as research or analysis. In Canada, mescaline is a Schedule III controlled substance under the Controlled Drug and Substances Act which means that it is illegal to possess or distribute without a license or prescription. And then in some other countries including like Peru, Ecuador, and Ecuador San Pedro is considered a traditional medicine and is legal to possess and use for certain purposes, such as healing and spiritual practices. However, the legal status of San Pedro can be complex and may depend on factors such as specific preparation,
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context of use, and local laws and regulations. Is there, so I'm hearing all this stuff, it's hard to grow peyote, we have these cactuses that grow really fast, but they have lots of other kind of nasty things that come along. Is there a synthetic mescaline? No, there isn't. I think there just is. So there literally is just a company that just came out two or three months ago and claims to have a patent, or has a patent, provisional, on how to make synthetic mescaline. So I think it's really hard to make synthetic mescaline. In fact, I know that because it kind of breaks apart into smaller molecules really fast. However, I kind of wonder if something like San Pedro that grows really fast compared to peyote could be used as a substrate to kind of get at more of a commercialization of mescaline to treat things such as alcohol use disorder. That'd be really interesting. It looks like we've reached our time today. Thank you all for the great discussion. And thanks to those
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listening to The Chemical Collective to get your weekly dose of drugged facts listening to The Chemical Collective to get your weekly dose of drugged facts while dispelling fiction.