063 | David Wood | Understanding How to Choose Distributors & Wholesalers | Liana Collection

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 063, Chris Maffeo and David Wood from the Liana Collection share valuable insights on the three stages of brand distribution.

He provides expert advice for startup drink brands on self-distribution, the role of small and large distributors, and the crucial importance of building trade relationships.

The discussion also covers the complexities of working with wholesalers, the necessity of immersive brand experiences for sales teams, and strategies for national and international brand expansion.

Emphasizing the need for founders to stay actively engaged in the trade, David and Chris highlight the evolving role of salespersons in today's digital age.

Tune in for a comprehensive guide to scaling your drinks brand successfully!

Time Stamps

00:00 Introduction to Brand Distribution Stages

00:55 Advice for Startup Drink Brands

02:34 Scaling with Distributors

⁠03:26 Importance of On-Trade Chains

11:11 Managing Relationships with Wholesalers

16:30 Building Brand Demand

24:11 Role of Sales Reps and Founders

32:58 Digitalization of Sales and Social Media

⁠37:24 Conclusion and Contact Information

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: David Wood

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

David Wood

Founder | Liana Collection | UK Distributor

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

Insights come from sitting at the bar.

Beyond episodes: advisory for leadership teams, subscription with episode deep dives and principles to navigate your own reality.

Beer, wine, spirits, Low and non-alcoholic.

Bottom-up Insights & Episode Deep Dives at https://maffeodrinks.com

Welcome to the Mafia drinks
podcast.

I'm your host Chris Maffeo.
In episode 63 I continue the

conversation with David Wood
from Liana Collection from

episode 62.
I hope you will enjoy our chat.

One last thing, if you enjoy
this podcast you will also like

the mafia drinks guides where
you will find all you need to

build your brand bottom up.
You can subscribe free or paid

on Mafia Drinks.
Com David, like based on what

you were saying before, it
sounds like if there are like 3

stages for, for brands in, in
terms of distribution stages

now, like the part in which they
do stuff on their own and they

try to build their own small
presence on their own, like

without having a distributor in
a market.

And then they go on on to having
it, you know, a small dedicated

distributor and then somehow
they feel the need to scale up

to a bigger distributor or they
dream about having a bigger

distributor.
Maybe this, you know,

expectations change versus the
smaller one like we had.

I was having this discussion
with Jack or Ewing from from

that we share, for example, in a
previous episode.

What's your take on that one
like on making sure that you

know, let's see a recommendation
from your side on brands, on

understanding what's the right
set up for the right brand life

stage?
If you're just starting out as a

drinks brand, my advice would be
to get as far as you possibly

can on your own.
Learn about the right people in

the trades, understand, build
the relationships with as many

you know of the stakeholders in
the trade as possible, be that

wholesale reps or you know, key
bars or the supermarket buyers,

and try and do as much as you
possibly carry yourself.

And the two reasons for that are
you needs and knowledge and the

understanding of how how the
process works.

And secondly, is cash flow wise
and a a smart use of of cash.

If you're a distributor and a
new start brand comes to you

with absolutely no volume
whatsoever, they're inevitably

going to ask probably for quite
a high retainer fee to make up

for the margin.
That's not not not existing.

So my advice would be as a
startup brand, get as far as you

possibly can and give yourself a
target like a target case case,

sales target or turnover target
to get to before approaching a

smaller distributor.
I think if you're a small

independent, maybe Nisha brand
working with a business like

Liana Collection is a fantastic
thing to do.

If the volume is there, both
parties are are incentivized to

keep driving the volume as much
as possible.

The issue is if you're still a
quite a small niche brand, going

to a big distributor is tough to
get their buying and they're

most likely going to be focused
on the highest volume brands

within their portfolio.
Jack's decision to move to proof

I think is is is a brilliant
one.

You know, I think what once once
you've scaled the drinks brown

to the level that George and
Jack have got Duffy share rum

to, they have proven themselves
in the market as the number one

independent rum brand.
You know, they're in a huge high

volume category and they want to
continue their growth and

priests are a great partner for
that.

You know, they're a big national
company.

They've got connections with
everybody you'd probably want to

work with.
And the other thing is their

cash flow of importing and
distributing stock.

Doing that as an independent
brand is hard and if you've got

the right partner who who are
able to alleviate that cash flow

for you, you can focus your
spend on brand building or

whatever it is you're good at as
a founder.

I'm interesting to know your
view on the importance of

multiple on trade.
You know, like chains on trade

chains, for example, in this
scale that the brand has to

reach, let's say on its own
before actually approaching a

distributor.
Because like one of the

conversation I'm having is like,
you know, I'm always talking

about especially of course,
independent on trade and

independent of trades or bottle
shops and so on.

Like as we discussed before, you
know, those are the ones in

which is a clear interest
because they need to

differentiate themselves from on
and off trade, you know, like

chains.
But then sometimes there's a

feeling, I think I was
discussing this also with Jack.

If you don't get to that
threshold of having those kind

of chains supporting you on
rotation and so on, then it

becomes a bit of a, of a
struggle.

But you know, every brand has a
different kind of take on this

one also, like depending on the,
the, the time horizon that they

set to themselves now on, on
where they want to reach a

certain number of K's and the
resources available, you know,

if they're founded, if they're
self founded and bootstrapping

or not.
What do you think about that

importance of of, of actually
going wider sooner?

You can't scale a drinks brand
without working with multiple

operators.
The multiple operators are so

much easier in some ways to
manage, even if you have to

invest slightly more into them.
One decision maker, he, he or

she might work and manage 100
venues or 20 venues.

The thing with those 20 venues
is now centrally managed.

They have a, you know, a buying
policy.

If you've got a commercial
agreement with those, with that

one person, the volume is huge.
You know, in comparison to 20

independent bars, you know,
working with 20 different buyers

who have 20 different kind of
philosophies on buying, it's

preferable to only work of one
person.

That said, if you lose that one
person, the impact on your

volume is huge.
So I think, I think you do need

to do both.
I would start to a drinks brand

tomorrow.
I would be talking to

independent accounts and the
multiples and exactly the same

time, often big and chains
nowadays are not dictated to by

Diageo and Pernod because they
need to be delivering a, a

reason for people to spend more
money when they go out.

And they do need interesting
brands, you know.

So if they're able to pick up,
you know, really exciting new

brands to the market, that's now
a really interesting

conversation.
So my advice would be if you're

launching, do both straight
away.

This is very interesting because
I mean, there are different,

let's say theories around that.
Is that kind of like

intersection between being
approved by a buyer, you know,

and then having a certain
demands in the market.

And that demand could have been
created by, you know, social

media or trainings or, you know,
other things.

But there must be that kind of
like expectation of rotation as

well, because I think I was
discussing this with Nick in a

previous episode that we were
saying, you know, like sometimes

you get, you know, all the
prerequisites are in place, but

then the buyer doesn't get it.
But sometimes also the buyer

takes a bit of leap of faith on
your brand and then stocks it.

But then there's no demand for
it because nobody knows the

brand.
And then automatically there's

no demand.
And then you stay there for a

few months and then all of a
sudden that account is kind of

like burn.
It it's interesting, it's it's

also the category that your
product is in.

You know, if you're a cocktail
ingredient going into a multiple

operators a lot easier than if
you're a lager, you know, for

because the lager is the badge
and people are so brand loyal to

the lager that they drink.
And if they've never heard of a

lager that's on the bar before,
they're likely eaten go with a

brand that they have heard
before.

Whereas the cocktail ingredient,
you know, similar to that the

Liana collection portfolio,
we're within a cocktail that

people are not buying the brand,
they're buying the drink and

looking at the ingredients
within it.

And that's a much easier thing
to go into multiple operators

straight away because the volume
will be driven by people wanting

to drink Margarita or a espresso
martini that happens to have

your product in, as opposed to
going on to the bar and saying I

want that beer there if they've
never seen it before.

So I I guess my answer probably
changes slightly.

And a really good example of a
brand that didn't go to on trade

multiples straight away and
prove themselves would be lucky

St. the non alcoholic beer.
They went into bars, pubs.

Independence focused massively
on training and developing

people's knowledge behind the
bar of the product.

You know, they had a great
advertising campaign over a

period of time.
And then come dry January, I

think last year, that's where we
saw a massive amount of lucky

St. taps going into multiple
operators.

And the reason is that they
built a brand and a consumer

base with independence and now
the entree groups were ready to

see the product on the bar and
and know that there will be a

good rate of sale.
It's a great insight Lord, what

you're bringing, because it's
true that if you are the, let's

say, the modifier on that drink,
you know, like then you're not.

You kind of like putting the
foot in the door and you know,

like you're not visible.
You're more on a stealth kind of

way, No, and then sees your for
the multiple on trade to justify

that kind of switch of brand
rather than obviously being the

the tequila in the Margarita.
You're much more visible than if

you are substituting, let's say,
Cointreau in the recipe.

It it's very interesting what
you're saying, but also like the

insight that you're bringing
from like you're saying that I

like is that there is also that
element that with with small

independent stores, the learning
curve is much faster because

you've got 20 individuals.
And if you multiply that by 5

bartenders, then you've got 100
people that all of a sudden are

working with your brand.
And then if you are really

careful about the insides that
you can gain from them, you can

really see, OK, actually like
this.

Now there's a pool of 100 people
that told me that in these

drinks, it works well in this
drink, although I thought that

it would work well in that kind
of drink.

And, and then you have better
insights to actually then go to

a multiple on trade operator and
a buyer and say you could do

this because I've got these
learnings from, you know, three

months, six months working with
these kind of bars.

Now bring back the a point that
you were saying earlier about

the the fact that it's good to
differentiate yourself.

So you, you were, you were
talking about, you know, MU you

and, and you were talking about
the fact that, you know, you've

got many accounts doing a very
small amount per drink, because

that's, you know, that's how you
use the brand as a, as a, as a

modifier mainly, and that helps
you differentiate the risk.

It's a little bit like a kind of
like investment strategy.

Now you, you know, you invested
a little bit in many accounts

rather than to your previous
point about one buyer that has

twenty 5000 accounts.
And then if you look at that

one, then all of a sudden maybe
50 to 60% of your business has

gone overnight kind of thing.
How do you play that level of

kind of like granularity in
distribution?

Because you're, I guess you need
to work with a lot of

wholesalers because it, if you
start to go around the country

and not being based in only a
couple of cities, then all of a

sudden for you as a distributor,
you know, the amount of

wholesalers you work with, you
know, increases massively.

You know, like to reach those
kind of venues that are, that

are trying the product, that are
working with the product and so

on.
So how do you manage the

relationship with those smaller,
so to say, wholesalers that may

not be like super strong in your
Salem, but but they play a a

huge role in the scale of the
brand?

If you're working with any
wholesaler and you're a niche

product like a lot of the brands
in the honor are, you're not

always top of the conversation
in terms of the volume it for

the Rep.
They're not going to be seeing

us as someone that could get
them, you know, 250 cases of

house vodka in any bar in, in
that we might be working with.

It's, it's much smaller
increments.

Obviously the key is firstly,
not working with distributors

with, with wholesalers until you
know that there's enough demand

to make it worthwhile both both
your time and theirs.

Secondly, it's all about the
relationship with that person.

So constant communication,
constantly talking to them and

looking after each other and
sharing leads and keeping that

human relationship part of the
battle and being honest with

wholesalers.
You know, it's so easy to tell a

white lie and say we've got 50
bars looking to stock this

product when you know, you've
only got a couple of guys who,

who are going to do a small
amount of volume.

You know, it's, it's better to
be honest and in the long run

builds a business together nice,
nicely and progressively.

We did this with speciality
drinks with our spirits brands

in the early days.
You know, we, we waited until we

had the demand and slowly, once
we had the demand, we knew that

we could slowly build lots and
lots of points of distribution.

And when you look at our our
volume in speciality compared to

even two years ago, you know
we're 1000% up year on year.

The volumes build and build and
build and build.

And when they look back and you
know realize that these are

higher margin products that are
doing some now really good

volume across lots and lots of
points distribution, then you

demand respects as well.
So I think that would be the

key.
Go into a wholesaler once you've

got true volume and also only
work with a wholesaler if you

know you can find more volume
and make and build, build the

business together.
That's very interesting because

what, what I, what I hear from
you, if I understand correctly,

is that it's a little bit like
the same kind of like way of

thinking of what you were
recommending before about a

brand approaching a distributor.
No, it's just like more down the

line into the, the value chain
of things.

As a brand, you don't reach out
to an importer and, and, and a

distributor until you don't have
enough demands that you have

created on your own.
And then also as a distributor,

you know, you have to go in with
your own sales team before

approaching a wholesaler in that
region that will help you scale

the brand because otherwise it's
not really worth for them.

We're just about to launch in
Manchester and this last couple

of weeks the conversations
internally have been who are the

key wholesalers that we need to
be working with up there?

You know, the Leon collection
for a long time has been

massively focused on London.
And as we move out, we are going

to have different players in
that market.

You know, our, our spirits
brands are going to have new

wholesalers that we're going to
be wanting to work with and

champion and, and also, you
know, expand on the existing

wholesalers that we do work
with.

You know, speciality is a good
example there actually.

They've got a great presence in,
in Manchester.

We're looking forward to
building even more business with

them, up there with our cider
brands, Stanford Orchards.

You know, the conversations this
week have been our existing

partners, You know, someone like
Dayla Drinks who are amazing

partner to work with and someone
like Euro Boozer or Pig's Ears,

you know, brilliant craft beer
and cider wholesalers.

The relationships we forge with
those guys in the business we've

built in London is is really
sizable.

The issue is none of them are
really that focused on

Manchester as an area, so we are
going to have to find, you know,

new partners to help us in that,
in that city and the surrounding

cities, Leeds and Liverpool
namely.

It's the age-old challenge, you
know, don't over promise if

you're going to work with a
wholesaler to get the demand

sorted and you know, go into the
relationship honestly, knowing

that you can really build volume
together.

Really like trying to, you know,
to grow that demand bottom up

rather than dreaming top down.
And then, you know, you

disappoint people and says guys
become, you know, depressed and,

you know, they don't get the
results.

And then all of a sudden you
become like a burden kind of

brand to to carry.
Yeah.

My advice to brands that were
starting with from a scratch?

Don't overthink wholesale.
You know, focus all of your time

on the end user, you know, talk
to customers and the

distribution will sort itself
out that that's always the way.

Keep forcing the demand.
Sell, sell direct if you have to

before showing the wholesalers
the volume that you've created.

And wholesale is a really messy
game.

You know, in the drinks
industry, you know, there are so

many wholesalers, everyone got
different prices.

You know, some of them are
amazing partners and some of

them are not great to work with.
Some of them are really

respectful.
Some of them are disrespectful,

being honest about it and you
know, it's a messy game and but

it is so important and it's
imperative to work together.

You know what, I think all of
the partners that we work with

from Venus and not trio
speciality Matthew Clark.

You know, the reason that we
work well with these guys is

that we all respect each other
and we build business together.

We've walked away from one don't
work with is because we don't

have, you know, didn't have a
great working relationship and

you know, the terms weren't
right and it wasn't a two way

relationship.
But all of that mess that is

getting your product delivered
to lots of customers shouldn't

be a focus like focus on
building the demand with the end

user and wholesale and route to
market is something that will

will work itself out.
Even here in Prague, you know,

like I've got some brands that I
talked to, you know, English

brands or, you know, American
brands, Irish brands that I know

they're not, let's say
officially distributed here in

Czech Republic.
But I find them in bars, you

know, and bar owners are
actually buying them online,

paying, you know, a double
excise or getting like, you

know, the, you the, the British
excise or the French excise or

you know, which is higher than
the, than the Czech one just

because they want to have that
brand.

So it means that that brand has
actually created that demand

overseas, you know, and there
is, there is a kind of like a

fertile ground for that brand to
grow now.

And I guess you know, whether
you talk about countries or

regions, you will see when it's
the right time to reach a, a new

city now.
Because all of a sudden, if you

start to ask to get asked for
orders from Manchester or

Edinburgh or Cardiff, then all
of a sudden you start to feel,

OK.
Now it's, it's the third call

that I get is the SEC 6th call
that I get is the 11th call that

I get.
So now it's probably the right

sign to to do it.
And in the beginning of Carol,

it's better to, you know, to
self distribute the brand there

because ultimately it's about
that bar owner or that bartender

that is keen on your brand to
actually sort out what you were

saying.
You know, like they will sort

out the, the, let's say the
invisible hand of distribution

will sort itself.
How that and that boxer will

actually end up in that back bar
at some point.

Then you need to actually work
it and, and systematize that

because otherwise then it
becomes messy.

What you were saying before
about the different kind of

wholesalers.
It's also that, you know, from

my experience, there's always
that kind of like intersection.

Again, I love I love this
matrixes and and and and stuff

just to get my thinking right
now.

And is the intersection between
like the ones that focus on

categories versus the one that
focus on geographies, You know,

like because some of them may be
category focused but then wider

in an area.
So they don't go that deep, they

go much more horizontal than
vertical.

But then some others may go
super vertical into an area, but

then quite let's say horizontal
in portfolio.

So they may be like multi and
multi category.

What is your experience, for
example, in the UK, like is it

like rather like a mix of these,
you know, wholesalers or or do

they skew towards certain
categories or?

There's kind of three types of
wholesalers in the UK.

There's four types of
wholesalers.

One is beer inside a
specialists, one is spirit

specialists and one is wine
specialists and the the other is

composite.
All of those, they've all got

advantages and disadvantages.
The ones that try to do

everything that's really, really
tough.

Usually they're national
businesses and usually the

reason that they're composite is
because they have nationwide

demand from big customers that
want to use them exclusively for

all of their drinks.
So Matthew Clark's a really good

example.
They are a huge composite

wholesaler that will sell kegs
of beer, bottles of water,

champagne, niche spirits,
everything.

And that's a really hard
business to get right because

the sales team need to be
experts in all of those

categories, which is impossible,
you know, to know all of those

businesses, all of those brands,
all of those categories is is is

really hard.
What you're kind of left with

there is much more of a
transactional wholesale

approach.
It's more about price and if you

want to really know about the
products, you're probably going

to need to speak to the brands.
Now if you go into the

specialist wholesalers, wine,
for example, wine could be

Berkman's Wine Cellars and Notra
and Co, they were a wine

specialist.
Same with Burbendum, before they

went to Matthew Clark, they were
a wine specialist.

Lacabe de Pren, who are another
wine specialist.

I really, I really like those
guys actually.

They will come and talk to you
and give you an incredibly

detailed a consultation on your
wine, less to the degree where

the Rep will be very, very well
trained, knowledgeable, You

know, likely have decades of
experience, You know, across you

know, the different varieties
and regions of of wine and you

have a far more bespoke
experience.

And also you don't have to put
kegs of beer into the your

warehouse and your lorries.
And it's it's easier to hold

less stock, easier to forecast
the rate of sale on your and

you're an expert in that
industry.

Those wholesalers are for me are
the best because they are really

specialized on on one thing.
But to answer your question, I

guess you need both.
You know, somebody needs to

service the big national groups,
and that's where Matthew Clark

do an amazing job.
And someone needs to service the

independent scene who need
consultation and, you know, a

knowledgeable approach to the
categories.

It's a great overview that you
explained there because it's

ultimately that's the reason why
I like all these matrixes.

If you see like my, my trainings
and my, you know, seminars, it's

I'm full of this kind of
matrixes just because I like to

frame the issue, you know, like
I've had zillions of

conversations through the years
in many multiple countries with

multiple people.
And there's always like a, you

know, people are for one option
or for another option.

There's no right or wrong.
Ultimately, it's just like watch

what's right for you at that
moment now and in time and at

least let's understand what we
are talking about as you know,

let's frame the problem and then
we try to see what's the best

solution for you other than, you
know, like, no, you should go

with specialized wholesalers
now.

You should go with national
wholesale like and then you have

this faction driven arguments in
a meeting room.

Now what you were saying that I
really, it's interesting for me

and and and it's also about the
role of the sales Rep now,

because it's connected to the
it's kind of like two questions

in one, you know, like it's
connected to the previous thing

that you were saying before
about the importance of the

founder, you know, because
you've got founder LED stories

and founder LED brands.
So there is an element of that,

the importance of that founder
being present in the trade now.

And if you can showcase that
founder into a certain bar, then

you know, like then all of a
sudden it becomes like, wow,

like, you know, I can really
talk to the creator of this

brand.
But then the counter effect to

that is that of obviously, I
mean, we're not ubiquitous, you

know, we cannot be everywhere
all the time, you know, in the

trade.
So you need to have that kind of

level of ability to, to
translate that message down the

chain, whether it's with the
distributor, with their own

team.
You know, the founder has the

team of the founder and you
know, the, the brand ambassadors

and then they come to you and
you've got your sales people and

then you've got the wholesalers
and the wholesalers sales force.

You know, like we tend to forget
all the layers that are there in

that kind of like the that game.
I don't, I don't know what's the

name in English.
Like we only like the, the, the

wireless phone.
No, like that you play as a kid,

you know that you say, you
whisper something in the ear of

the person next to you and then
you wonder what, what's left of

that message after, after 10
passages.

No, So the first question would
be, how do you manage to

translate that message and
ensure that that message is

consistent?
And then the second thing like

that, we, we can deep dive
later, but it's also like the

role of the salespeople that I
think has changed throughout

these last years, You know, that
we see more and more.

I, I was having a comment on
LinkedIn the other day and

somebody commented that the only
sales guys that are, you know,

going forward nowadays are the
ones that can build demand for a

brand from a social media
perspective, you know, like

Instagram stories and
conversations and stuff, you

know, like it, it, it has
changed.

Like the role has changed into
what we call building demands.

No where there is the branded
page of a brand or or like the

last sales guy of the last
distributor in the remote lens

that actually can't speak the
same language of the founder.

That's why I'm kind of like
building these two questions in

one.
The truth of any brand in the

world of and any industry is the
story being told first hand by

the most educated person from
that brand is is how brands

grow, you know, retelling that
story time and time again.

And the further down the line,
the more diluted it can become.

So top of the tree is obviously
the founder.

Secondly, under the founder is
is the sales team, whoever is

selling that brand.
And the question is how powerful

are those two conversations?
Nothing will ever be as powerful

as sitting down with the founder
of drinks brand and listening to

their story.
That relationship is then, you

know, secured for the rest of
time.

And founders of drinks brands
should be spending 90% of their

time talking to people about the
brand.

You know, don't worry about the
back of house financing.

Talk to end users about your
brand story and forge, forge the

relationship.
That's obviously not something

that we can do in every single
bar in every single country in

the world.
So that's where the salesperson

comes in.
And this this is the most

important thing for brands that
are going to go into

distributors.
My advice would be take that

sales team to the distillery or
the brewery and completely

immerse them for as long as it
takes.

So for our brands, the great
example would be our cider

brand, Sanford Orchards.
Every year we go to the cider

works for the harvest, which is
kind of September time.

We walk the orchards, We see the
growers producing the apples of

the Crocs that are essentially
going to be pressed.

We see the Cider works pressing
apples, creating cider.

We understand how that process
is is working.

We can see the impact of
sustainability and the focus of

sustainability.
We can see the community coming

together, you know, we can try
the cider that's being pressed

in front of our eyes.
We learn how that product is

made.
We see the people behind it.

We understand the history of
that brand.

Once you've done that and you
then start speaking to customers

about it, that is the second
most powerful way of telling the

story after the founder.
And that's really, really

scalable.
You know, we just last week we

went to Italy as a, as a full
team, the Nyala Collection to

meet our new brand who we're
just about to launch with.

And we spent two days immersed
in the brand and we came back

completely inspired and very,
very knowledgeable.

And some of the brands we worked
with in the past we haven't had

that experience with.
And it's so important to have

the credibility of walking into
a bar and being able to say, I

know this, this place, I've been
there, I know the people I.

And as a result, you can be not
as powerful as the founder, but

you know, have a massive impact.
I mean, this is super, super

valuable, like what you're
saying, and I think it brings

back to one of my mantras that
I've it's about like we need

your home turf first now and
focusing on the home surf

because then you can maximize
that level.

You know, we were discussing
that in the episode, like about

the cost for distillery, for
example, now that you know, when

you are in bars in London or the
cost walls and so on, like it's

much easier for consumers,
bartenders, people to go and

come and, you know, come and
visit the distillery, whether

whether it's a beautiful
distillery like super organizer,

whether it's like a a Hut in the
middle of the farm lands, you

know, but but you'd still get
that kind of feeling.

And obviously, the further you
are from that thing, then, you

know, increasing costs that will
be for traveling there, for

people to manage to get there
even as a consumer and so on.

And that's why, like, it's
important for me to really win

that home turf first, you know,
before you actually venture

oversea, you know, because then
it's so much more difficult to

fly people.
That's why you need to set us,

you know, if you launch with a
new distributor in any country,

fly them all over to your
distillery.

Get that distributor to
understand your brand and it

might cost you, you know, a
couple of 1000 lbs, but that is

one of the best things you can
possibly spend money on because

the knowledge that those people
will have and the experience and

the credibility is absolutely
invaluable.

Look at somebody like Sip Smith,
you know, they were the first

new launch this gender sillery
in London for however many

years, maybe 100 years.
I'm I'm not sure.

And the number of bartender I, I
would, I, I imagine a bartender

from more or less every single
pub and bar in London or the

vast majority have been to
Chiswick to see Sip Smith and

have that immersive experience.
And it's such, it's such a a

kind of unfair advantage if
you're able to have people visit

your site and and that builds
the brand, that builds a huge

hometown following who can then
spread the message around the

world for you having experienced
it themselves.

Yeah, I I agree.
Yeah, absolutely.

And and and also like then how
did you manage to actually

lengthen that inspiration now?
Because I've done these trips

many times and I've organized
myself on the brands I was

working for and there's a lot of
churn and there's a lot of

rotational people and you know,
like and then says guys leave

and come and so on.
So you cannot do it all the

time, but then if, if you have a
way of doing it, that it could

even be like a webinar or it can
be like something done online

until you get up to speed now.
Because if a distributor's got,

I don't know, 10 sales people,
then you manage to do it for

six.
And then the, the new four are

not in, but you can just bring
them in, you know, the next

month.
Like you just have to, you know,

keep that momentum going until
you actually have the next lot

of visits to the distillery or
the brewery or whatever that is.

Now.
And 111 last thing on the

previous question that I was
asking about the digitalization

of sales people.
Know, what do you what is your

experience on that and what is
your take on on?

I guess I see it more and more
that the successful people are

the one that are really sales
guys.

I mean, that are really out
there, you know, at events, you

know, I was recently now like
the other day at the the world

class final.
Then there was Prycock the Week

and you, you see people that
are, you know, being present at

the Mirror Hospitality
experiment in Bratislava when I

had the seminar.
But it's the same people that

are meeting each other and going
on and on and on, you know,

like, and you, you see this
presence online and so on.

And it becomes more and more
important, especially on brands

with small budgets, according to
me.

But what's your take on that?
I think it's a really powerful

tool.
You know, I think someone that

does it really well is Paul from
Fair Drinks.

Yes, yes.
So he's been working and he's a

part of the business, has been
for a long time.

And he is, you know, constantly
out and about in bars and

posting and, you know, showing
you amazing new cocktails, using

the brands and connecting with
the right people in the trade.

And he's, he's so organized and
very, very, you know, diligent

and hard working and he's
created his own personal brands,

you know, and it's something
that I think people respect in

the trade.
And I think, you know, being on

Paul's Instagram as a bartender
is a is a probably a bit of a

badge of on and out.
And, you know, just giving a

little bit of love to somebody
for putting your brand on the

bar goes a hell of a long way.
If somebody is organized and

diligent enough to keep doing it
day out, day in, day out, the

long term advantages are, you
know, one, constantly sharing

positive news and two, creating
their own personal brand that

bartenders want to be part of.
And those are positive things.

It makes it easier to to be on
the next menu of that with that

manager and it makes it easier
for people in the trade to

follow, follow the brand and
see, see, see where its listings

are.
So I think it's a really

powerful tool.
Yeah, I agree.

I was having this conversation
with Paul Letko from Few Spirits

and and we were talking about if
I like bringing back your point

about being the trade, don't
worry about the back of the

house and that the you know, the
finance and stuff, you know,

like, and he was saying like you
have to fire yourself as soon as

possible from everything.
You're not the best person at

except the only role that he was
saying like it's it's being the

founder.
I mean, you are the founder.

There's no one else that can be
the founder because you founded

it.
Look at look at Jared and Zip

Smith.
He's the brand ambassador of the

face of the brand.
He does it amazingly well.

Is that kind of element of
again, if we make it on a

matrix, you know, like is this
kind of like scale reach and

depth of reach now?
So you need to be out in the

trade and be visible and be seen
as at conferences, at bars in

those places where you alive.
But then at the same time of

being, you know, in podcasts, in
media and PR, like magazines and

so on, because, you know, that's
the way you amplify the message.

No.
And it's, it's a little bit like

I, I was now in Bratislava with
the guys from Mirror Bar when

they organized this amazing
Expo.

And you know, I was there like
speaking live for one for one

hour, but there was 100 people
being there.

You know that I've seen it.
But then like, if I amplified it

on social media, then all of a
sudden is the thousands of

people, you know, that I can
reach with that same message

now.
So I need to be out there

personally.
But also, and, and I think like

is that kind of intersection
that some people are really good

at being super locally relevant,
but they have a very bad

personal brands because they
don't like social media and so

on.
And sometimes it's not that I

like social media.
I mean, it's tough.

I mean, it's, it's, it's hard
work to be out there on social

media.
It's not that I I love doing it.

It's just that it's a necessity
nowadays because that's the only

way to build demand for for your
brand, whether it's a personal

brand, whether it's a podcast, a
brand, there's a distribution

company, you know, that's the
way you are seeing on what you

are doing now.
Agreed.

So building of that, let's let's
wrap it up because I'm aware of

your time and you know, I want
to give the opportunity to you

as a business owner to be
visible and add any, you know,

brands that want to reach out to
you and you know, possibly enter

the UK market with would you
like?

So how can how can people reach
out to you?

Yeah, great.
I if anyone's ever looking to

explore a distribution model and
wants to have a chat, easiest

way is just to go on the
honorcollection.co.uk, drop us

off, drop us a, an, an e-mail on
the contact us page.

And we're always, always open to
having conversations and talking

to founders about, you know,
brands that we believe in.

So that's the easiest way.
Fantastic.

So thanks a lot for your time,
David.

Like it was a great, great chat
and I really liked it and I

think people are going to really
get a lot of values from it.

Hopefully we we meet soon in
person and we're going to have a

few, a few.
Drinks together Something in the

diary, Chris.
I'm sure at some point we'll

have a have a have a cocktail or
two together.

Absolutely, absolutely.
So thanks a lot for your time,

David.
Top man, thank you so much for

having me, Chris, take care.
That's all for today.

Remember that this is a two-part
episode 62 and 63.

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