Golf Nuts

GOLF NUTS dives deep with master club designer Westin Maughan, ( instagram @westonmaughangolf ) Weston is a boutique club-maker and former Cobra gear insider, He shares insights from his new Proto Irons, and high end boutique putters, He pulls back the curtain on what’s real, what’s marketing, and how the new generation of irons could revolutionize your game—or crush it. Spoiler: it’s all about understanding lofts, turf interaction, and NOT blindly trusting the latest hype. 

Westin shares how his deep engineering roots led him to design irons that truly suit actual golfers—no gimmicks, just smart gear for those serious about performance. You'll discover:
  • How he re-birthed a modern version of a legendary titleist iron
  • Why most modern irons are less effective than they appear
  • The overlooked science of CG placement and loft evolution
  • How PGA Tour players are actively regrinding clubs to cheat the standards
  • The truth about lofts, bounce, and how to gap your bag with purpose
  • Why boutique manufacturers like Westin are the future, and how technology like 3D printing still has a long way to go
  • Drop your hot takes 👇 — do you trust the tour’s secret tinkering or call it marketing smoke and mirrors?
This isn’t just about gear. It’s about rewiring your golf math—and realizing that most of what you buy is marketing hype. If you want to stop chasing 10-yard gains and start hitting shots that make sense, this is your blueprint.

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Final thoughts
The secret sauce? Combining art, science, and steeping it all in tradition— challenging everything the big brands are selling. Would you dare to go smaller, higher CG, and craft your own toolkit? Or are you too busy chasing the latest hype?

Sound off in the comments and let us know your take on the future of golf! 🎙️
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🔔 Don't miss out—subscribe for more episodes and stay in the loop!
📢 Share the love! Pass this episode along to your fellow golf enthusiasts.
💬 Got thoughts? Drop a comment and join the conversation!
🎁 Exciting news! We're unlocking giveaways at every milestone—stay tuned and be part of the fun!

0:00 Introduction
0:13 Welcome Westin Maughan
2:02 Westin's Background and Journey
4:35 Evolution of Golf Technology
5:26 Iron Loft Differences
8:41 Current Trends in Golf Equipment
12:03 Westin's Iron Design Philosophy
18:07 Traditional vs. Modern Loft
26:14 Importance of Turf Interaction
31:26 Business Challenges in Golf Manufacturing
35:30 The Art of Golf Equipment Design
43:41 Market Trends and Future of Golf Gear
53:01 Final Thoughts and Advice

#GolfEquipment #IronLofts #GolfTechnology #WestinMaughan #GolfPodcast #GolfTips #GolfGear #ModernWedges #GolfDesign #BoutiqueGolf


SHOW NOTES:

Inside the Mind of a Boutique Iron & Putter Artist: Westin Maughan

This podcast dives into the artisan side of golf manufacturing — where artistry meets precision engineering. Westin isn’t just designing clubs; he’s rewriting the playbook on how beauty, function, and tradition collide. And honestly, nobody’s doing it quite like this.

Key Topics
  • How Westin’s engineering background shapes his club design philosophy
  • The evolution of golf iron lofts and why it’s a wild (and dangerous) game
  • Why the tour’s tweaking equipment in secret is the new normal
  • The art and science behind boutique putters—weight, shape, light bending
  • The future of manufacturing: US-made vs. overseas, 3D printing’s hype, and honest insights
  • The importance of visual harmony and light interaction in putter design
  • How to approach golf club fitting in 2026: gapping, lofts, and not chasing trends
  • Trends that will disappear in the next two years — and some that might surprise you
  • Inside stories of caddie misadventures and the subtle truths of top tour pros’ routines
  • Small details that make a big difference: grip sizes, swing weight, and confidence in your clubs
Timestamps
00:13 - Meet Westin: the boutique club artist breaking the norm
01:02 - Growing up in California, and the golf start that was a lesson from Johnny Miller
02:30 - The engineering roots that led to craftmanship in golf club design
03:40 - The evolution of iron lofts and market confusion in 2026
04:55 - Tour secrets: what tour players are tinkering with behind closed doors
08:41 - Beware the boom: loft jacking and the danger of ‘scale the gap’ clubs
12:00 - Why Westin's irons are a nod to the classic blade, tailored for the better player
18:13 - The design philosophy behind ‘small head, higher CG’ for control and workability
23:50 - How modern forgings and carbon steel transform feel and performance
27:40 - The challenge of traditional lofts in today’s marketing-driven world
33:20 - The future of manufacturing: U.S. craftsmanship, overseas, and the rise of 3D printing
35:00 - The artistry in club aesthetics—light, shape, and the visual psychology of gear
39:20 - The building of boutique putters: weight, balance, and personalized fitting
44:08 - The market impact: can boutique makers survive when OEMs go high-tech?
49:43 - The data-driven myths about grip size, weight, and swing mechanics
52:30 - Function vs. aesthetics: what actually influences your performance?
56:50 - The takeaway for golfers: build your purpose-driven bag with intention

Resources & Links
Connect with Westin

Creators and Guests

Host
Brian Harstine
A passionate player and creator, Brian lives deep in all things golf, bringing the game’s most relatable conversations to the channel—on the course and behind the mic. A former junior tour standout with more than a few scholarship offers, he shifted into a career as an award-winning film producer/director before spending the last nine years leading innovation in financial technology. Brian mixes business insight with a 2-(sometimes 4) handicap, diving into gear, pros, courses, culture, and everything that makes golf addictive.
Host
Josh Lynn
That big swing energy part of the team, and a strong +/- 7 handicap killer in a low key money game. He is the natural and sometimes odd voice of the modern golf fan; From Youtube's latest, to gear talk to course stories and the chaos of weekend rounds, Josh brings perspective, humor, and personality to the Golf Nuts crew.
Host
Patrick Baird (PB)
By day, Patrick lives in the world of venture, but he found his second calling as a true golf nut. An enthusiast rocking one of the best 7 Handicaps, who loves the heart and tradition of the game, helping shape the show’s signature style with quick takes, thoughtful analysis, and a competitor’s mindset. His perspective brings balance and depth from gear and culture to the guts of the game itself.

What is Golf Nuts?

Golf Nuts is the golf worlds group chat; where golf culture, competition, and golf entertainment collide. Real takes, real debates, and zero corporate nonsense. We discuss the shots, the gear, the trends, and the moments every golfer knows / wants to know—whether you’re a scratch player or just here for the vibes. Where a perfect blend of real love for the game meets laid-back, entertaining YouTube golf vibes lives.

👍 Like what you hear? Hit that like button and let us know!
🔔 Don't miss out—subscribe for more episodes and stay in the loop!
📢 Share the love! Pass this episode along to your fellow golf enthusiasts.
💬 Got thoughts? Drop a comment and join the conversation!
🎁 Exciting news! We're unlocking giveaways at every milestone—stay tuned and be part of the fun!

Follow Golf Nuts Everywhere ⛳️
▶️ YouTube: https://youtube.com/@golfnutsofficial
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/golfnutsofficial
🐦 X (Twitter): https://x.com/golfnutsx
🌐 Official Site: https://golfnutsofficial.com

Speaker 1:

We wanna welcome the first guest on Golf Nuts podcast, Westin Maughan. It's the top of the season. New gear cycles are spinning up. Rumors are everywhere, and most golfers are coming off an off season where they've played less but consumed more golf content than ever. Westin is a Utah based golf equipment designer and builder known for boutique putters and now early stage irons.

Speaker 1:

He's respected in the gear community not only through Instagram but also via Golf WRX, features on podcasts, broader media, golf coverage, and he's currently expanding the narrative into forged CNC iron development, which fits perfectly with start up season gear obsession content. Welcome, Westin. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you for

Speaker 2:

having me on the show. I'm excited. And thank you for the the the intro. Sometimes I don't feel that good about myself, so that makes me feel good.

Speaker 3:

Well, as we jump into this, Western, why don't you tell us a little bit about where you grew up, where you went to school, how'd you start playing golf so much?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so I originally grew up in California, it was kind of a beach bum surf club type of stuff, and then moved to Northern California Bay Area, where my my golf really started to begin. And that's where I went to high school, little high school out of Napa Valley called Vintage High School. And I was on the golf team there and just had a great experience. So I was introduced to the game by one of the families in my church, and we had like this youth activity. And we went out and hit golf balls at a driving range and got lessons from very notable PGA tour player named Johnny Miller.

Speaker 2:

And so he was giving me swing tips and that was like my first golf lesson. And after that, it just, it stuck. So I've been golfing ever since.

Speaker 3:

Are some of those high school matches at like Half Moon Bay, Olympic Club, some of the greatest courses are in the world are out there.

Speaker 2:

In the Bay Area, I mean, there's definitely some great courses, but for my lowly high school, we did not play courses like that. No, it was a great experience to to do that and play on a team and then, you know, going to college and and continue golfing.

Speaker 1:

So let's talk about your arc. Like what brought you to where you are now?

Speaker 2:

That's that's a good question. So it really started in high school when I had an elective course that I could take and it was called drafting, which was basically what engineers used to do. They used to draw on paper, create blueprints, and so I guess you could say I was classically trained in engineering. But I did four years of that continuously through high school, and I completed the entire curriculum. And so my senior year, I got to just draw whatever I wanted.

Speaker 2:

And being a guy who likes tools and shiny things, golf clubs really fit that quite well. And so I was designing golf clubs even in high school. And that was that was really where things started. I just didn't know what was gonna take me there some, you know, twenty years later. But, yeah, I graduated 1999 and, you know, in 2001, that's really when my first golf club was produced.

Speaker 1:

You walked for PGA Tour pros for a little while. And that was part of the

Speaker 4:

Yeah, there was a little bit

Speaker 2:

of a journey there where I was a caddy for a PGA Tour player who had bounced between the PGA Tour and the nationwide. You know, it wasn't a full time gig, but every time he came into town, I would play with him. So, or caddy for him. And so in Utah, there aren't very many PGA Tour events. There's just like one.

Speaker 2:

I think they're Yeah, one now. And then there's a nationwide event as well. So but yeah, Craig Barlow, I would caddy for him. And he was a great guy and, but fun experience to be out there seeing those players.

Speaker 4:

Westin, it's interesting. I know you're saying before we started recording, he kinda grew up in Scotty's backyard but, you know, just the timing of when you got into club design and started in that world coinciding with rapid change in technology, the transition in full from the ballata to solid core ball, from full blown metal to or sorry, from full blown wood, persimmons into more advanced materials at the time, steel, titanium and it's timely that you're on the show today because we're at the beginning of release season for 2026. Having looked at your stuff and it being more, I would call it classical, '99, 2000, 2001, we've got the Tiger's Slam, Tigers winning everything left and right with a Newport two. How did that all play into your design ethos and from where you sit now, what are you seeing and what are the things that the golfers should ignore in 2026 that are marketing and what's is where is there there there?

Speaker 2:

You know, obviously, I I come from an era of the old stuff where when I started playing golf, there were still some players playing wood drivers on the PGA Tour. And, you know, the pro v one then was created and kinda changed golf and titanium drivers exploded. So I definitely have this unique background of the old stuff versus the new stuff. One of the trends that I've found the most interesting is just iron loft. And this is what I would caution people to look out for.

Speaker 2:

But people don't know that a pitching wedge from now and pitching wedge from five years ago, ten years ago, they're all different in loft. And they are different in length too because the lengths change. And so you've got a lot of different type of clubs being made that are all called the same thing that for the average golfer just considers them to be the same thing unless you know you're you're highly skilled and and very in tune with what equipment's doing. And so as as equipment manufacturers make golf clubs, I would just say stay weary of irons that go far. Granted, they need to make golf clubs for specific markets.

Speaker 2:

As a manufacturer, I get that You're you're making golf clubs for somebody who wants to pound beers on the weekend and hit a 190 yard seven iron, but then there's people that wanna take it, you know, serious. And, you know, if you are in that category of taking it serious, then you have to work a little bit harder to find golf equipment that's gonna do the job that it's supposed to do and, you know, be a tool in your bag that's that's gonna be effective. And so iron loft, for the most part has created a lot of challenge for golfers because, you know, they get a traditional sandwich 56 degree, which hasn't changed since it was created over one hundred years ago. And then, pitching wedges have gone from fifty, forty nine, 48. And now if you go on Callaway and look at one of their game improvement irons, the pitching wedge might be like 42 degrees.

Speaker 2:

It's forced manufacturers to do things that they didn't have to before and it's create new golf clubs within gaps. There was no A wedge. There was no G wedge. But as irons got stronger, they created this new wedge that you had to fill the gap in. Now you would need like three or four you you could see players with five wedges in their bag just to fill the gap to the iron.

Speaker 2:

Irons that go far never really helped anybody in my opinion because you're just replacing what it used to need to do with another golf club that's actually less forgiving, which is a traditional wedge.

Speaker 3:

So they're gonna de loft a four line to goes back to being a one iron that even God can't hit, and then we're gonna have to keep coming up with all of these additions that of clubs, as you just said, to fill these gaps.

Speaker 2:

Right now, if you go on the website, any game improvement iron, a four iron is 20 degrees. I haven't looked into the bags recently, but very rarely. And I would say there might be three or four players on tour right now that have an iron in their bag with less than 23 degrees of law. It's really hard to And those are the tour players. Right?

Speaker 2:

They're putting Sutton Woods in the bag because the greens are hard out there. They need to flight the ball in the air, drop them soft. They're not hitting Stinger two irons, you know, off the tee unless it's like the British Open. And that's it. That's like the only time they actually do that.

Speaker 2:

But PGA Tour players, they follow the endless summer. So they just have great conditions year round, and they're optimized for those types of conditions.

Speaker 4:

So in the same vein of beware the boom sticks, right, and these jacked up lofts, what are you seeing right now, you know, all two weeks into 2026 that we are in the equipment release season? What are you seeing that there might be a there there? What are you paying attention to and what should golfers pay attention to?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. So, some of my background is working with Cobra Golf and being an equipment technician, working with a local sales rep. I did that for, several years under Cobra and got to really get in close with what the equipment was, where it was trending. And at the time, Cobra was making a lot of leaps forward in technology, and they were definitely a player to be reckoned with. And Ricky Fowler was obviously on staff at the time and still is, but he was playing fantastic golf with them.

Speaker 2:

So it was a lot of fun to be in that arena and have that experience and see the technology emerge. But as for what people should look out for, as as we're coming, you know, golfers in general just can't be one bucket, right? There are some golfers that really want to improve their game. And there are different aspects that they should focus on from an equipment perspective. Versus the guy that just wants to have fun.

Speaker 2:

I think wedges are really the technology where that's happening. It can definitely benefit your average golfer, but also the guys that are serious. Making sure you're you're spacing out your bag appropriately. You know, I've seen a lot of amateurs that have like a 60 degree and a 58 in the bag. This one's for the sand shots and this one's for the deep rough and, you know, they're they're they're missing out on opportunity to have a much more utility across the bag.

Speaker 2:

Yet they have wedges that are like so closely gapped together, or it was just like, oh, my dad gave me this, so now it's in my bag. And so there's I I think that that area has been moving a lot quicker than a lot of people realize. And and to give you an example, you know, drivers, obviously, are the most technologically advanced. Think we kind of hit a plateau with them. Then every year after that, it's been 1% better for the past decade.

Speaker 2:

That's important, right? You know, 10% better from ten years ago, that's a big change. But when it comes to wedges with the groove technologies that we've had, some of the restrictions that the USGAs and found them and how they had to adapt, you're seeing variable groove thickness and width and different face textures that are all attempting to, you know, create more spin and consistency. But the biggest factor in wedges is also CG. And and that will kind of segue into why I designed the irons the way I did.

Speaker 2:

But wedges in general, I think since like 2016, manufacturers have been figuring out that the tour players want higher CG wedges.

Speaker 1:

This is really one of the biggest topics that we wanna chat on with you is those irons. So we know that you have a background building putters, boutique putters. You branched off, you started building these irons and I followed it. I saw your stories on Instagram, pretty incredible depth. I went ahead and ordered one of your proto sets.

Speaker 1:

They are, in my opinion, some of the coolest from the attention to detail. And you can go on his Instagram, toss him a follow, check this out, because he can break down every single aspect of the design process, and why he selected, you know, the grind, the size, and so on. So let's let's dive into that. Let's double click on that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, I'll start where how it began. I had a group chat on Instagram with two good guys. One of them is in the equipment industry and one of them just plays a lot of good golf.

Speaker 2:

And we just had this passion for the nine sixty two b iron. So we're we just created this gang on Instagram, and we just talk about it all. So the nine sixty two b came out in 1996 and was a cast golf club that was more of a tour style iron, belovedly played by David Duvall. So he was gaming those as well as some other title of staffers at the time. Tiger had come on and tried them.

Speaker 2:

He didn't like them very much. And he, you know, went with the forge gold they handcrafted for him. B was kind of just this golden age of golf for some of the guys in my age range. You know, I'm 44 people that played golf in the nineties. That that club was like, is one of those great irons like the Mizuno MP 14 or the Cleveland wedges at the time.

Speaker 2:

So, anyways, we had this little group and we would always talk about, oh, we could do this or maybe we should do that. It never really came to fruition. And then ended up buying a set that I wanted to refurbish myself. And so I I got the faces re blasted. I repolished all the edges.

Speaker 2:

I was gonna build them up myself. I posted them and just so many people were responding like, man, somebody needs to make those and forged. Somebody needs to redo those. Somebody needs and I was like, well, what if that somebody was me? And so I I just did it.

Speaker 2:

And and truth be told, one of my favorite motivational videos is actually Shia LaBeouf on a green scheme. I don't know if you've ever seen him just like rage yelling at the the camera telling people to follow their dreams. I saw

Speaker 1:

that literally yesterday. Do it.

Speaker 2:

Just do it. And I I remember that came out, and now that I'm older and, you know, I was running this business in putters, and I was like, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. And and I did. Then I reached out to the right people, found out what I needed to do, you know, created a story around why I was gonna create them the way I did.

Speaker 2:

And the big thing that I wanted to address for golfers was turf interaction. Because that's really what you can alter and change in an iron is how it reacts in the turf. For the most part, everything else is gonna be quite similar. You know? How is it forgiving?

Speaker 2:

Is there a cavity? Does it have grooves? What, you know, is it milled CNC? Those things are kind of standard now, but turf interaction is the one thing you can definitely control.

Speaker 1:

Probably why Strixon's z x seven, z x fives are so popular is that sole design that they put into those for the last couple generations. 100%. So those were that

Speaker 2:

was actually one of the trends that I followed that helped me know that this was the right direction to go. So it was Srik Sun's sole, and those I talked to the local fitters. I didn't care what the tour players were using. I want to know what the local fitters were doing and ZX7s and fives were flying off the shelf. And a lot of it was due to that soul.

Speaker 2:

The second thing that I saw was following the tour, you know, photographs, Golf WRX, insider info that I, with people I know. Even a post on Potter's Putty and he got a set from Titleist. These people are regrinding the leading edges on these clubs on tour because they wanted a different turf interaction than they were getting. So when I saw PGA Tour players altering production equipment that was actually designed for them to have more blunted leading edges and higher bounce, I was like, we're definitely onto something now. And, and those two things really spurred the deep dive into why I created the bounce angles that I did on the irons and, and who they were meant for.

Speaker 3:

Besides Richard, who else do you think is doing it the right way or at least heading in the right direction?

Speaker 2:

Right now, Mizuno made a big push and their S three and S one irons have completely recontoured soles with more bounce on the leading edge. It's like they have really broad pre worn leading edges that really help with turf interaction. And I think that really was a response to them and the ZX7 and what players are asking for.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, the MP13 that just came, are you a fan of that new iron?

Speaker 2:

You know, I've only seen a little bit of content on the new irons. They were more game improvement and so I didn't dive too deep into them.

Speaker 3:

Was coming off that $2.45, but this one they did a two part and they wanted to create more of a channel behind the face so that they could put some more tongues and some more forgiveness. But right now, I have not heard the best feedback. And as an equipment maker, obviously it's hard for me to

Speaker 2:

dive into multi material construction. It would be really difficult for me to design an iron and then from a manufacturing process, doing such low quantities and trying to compete in that high end area. In that space, as well as drivers, that's like me trying to build a Formula One race car in my garage. Like, it's just not gonna happen.

Speaker 1:

Talk more about your irons specifically. They are geared towards probably the better player, probably lower handicap, better ball strikers. You know, the size of the head is, from what I understand, a little smaller. The way that you design the loft, speaking to what you were talking about earlier, is a bit more traditional. And the offset is almost zero from what I've seen.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Talk a little bit about what that is, why you chose to do that, why that matters to, you know, us players.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I wanted to create an iron that had more of a tour profile that was a little bit cleaner. Golf clubs in general get pretty big and bulky, and I just wanted to create a little bit smaller cavity back package and and maintain some of the essence of the nine sixty two b. One of the aspects to that iron design that was unique from anything else I'd seen was where the CG was placed. And that was actually the the marketing slogan for that iron.

Speaker 2:

It was the DCI. So the direct center impact. And their CG was located not on the first, second, or third, but on the sixth groove on the face. So if you count up, I balanced every golf club on that on a nail and each face, they were above the sixth groove. I thought to myself, that is that is such a unique thing because I'm being fed by every marketing team that I need low center of gravity.

Speaker 2:

And I need to launch the ball up in the air. And there's a few interesting dynamics that occur when you have a golf club with loft. Most of the lift is actually coming from the spin because the golf ball is designed with dimples to rotate backwards and lift up just like an airplane. Launching it with more spin can create the trajectory that you're looking for. And if you want to hit the ball high, just, you know, get something with more spin and you'll definitely get there.

Speaker 2:

But trying to get a CG lower, it's really difficult because the low CG irons that are created for some of these amateurs, one of the ways that they do that by also, they also add offset. So they kind of have that gooseneck appearance. And when you create a hosel that's not in line with it with with you know, low offset, but you move that in front, the CG actually travels closer to the face, creates lower launch. It's not like a deep CG where it's an MOI that would create like lift and and less rotation. It actually moves it more towards the center because that's just where CGs are.

Speaker 2:

Understanding some of those factors really led me to having less offset and also having a higher CG and following some of those trends that I talked about with wedges where the biggest advancements really have been having a higher CG in the wedges. And and just later this last year, Voki released a 44 degree wedge. It's like, why why do the tour players want a 44 degree wedge when irons should have that territory? And they want something that has a higher CG with more consistent spin, that's more of a blade. And and you know, now you've got five wedges from 60 to 44 in your bag to to have a more blade like pull pull and so

Speaker 4:

I just gotta ask, I I know that the Westin Protos right now are kind of an ode to the DCIs. Is there a muscle back on the horizon or no?

Speaker 2:

It's it's just in here at the moment. I haven't even put it on paper yet but there are some blade ideas that I want to go after. And truth be told, Mizuno, the s one was very close to what I probably would have released because I wanted something with a little bit more mass on top. And and I think they did that with that channel. And so it's not exactly how I do it.

Speaker 2:

I put my own panaz on it, but that that's the idea. Right? It's it's still embodying some of the factors that I built into this iron, but making it a true blade iron and and having the sole designed the way that I did on the the protos.

Speaker 1:

Speaking of baby blades or blades in general, the baby blades from my era's, they are small. They're baby blades. And to talk about the size of your irons from our conversations, I believe they are baby blade size or maybe even if you're familiar with the Mizuno s threes that seem to be a bit smaller. And when you talked about the higher CG, that was very interesting to me as well. Again, I think it lends towards a probably a little better player, at least a player that has a bit more speed, which creates also a little bit more of that spin, a little bit more of that lift without having to have the help from some of that modern technology we see in those players distance or game improvement irons that are being marketed so heavily from the big OEMs.

Speaker 1:

Why did you go with such a small head shape?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I wanted to stay true to the original design. So from a profile perspective, they they are almost exact replicas of the nine sixty two b. But with that smaller head size, it's a little bit more usable in the rough because the less head and friction you're gonna get when you're swinging into a golf ball that's in the tall grass. That's one aspect to it.

Speaker 2:

A little bit more workability for you know, moving the ball. You know, the wider they are, the more MOI they can have. And I mean, you can still work irons, but it's just that classic profile that really was meant for the single digit handicap. So, you know, you're nine and below. And so it was just it was keeping true to it, but also just improving on the manufacturing and and some of the forgiveness of the iron.

Speaker 2:

So the original ones were a cast stainless steel. I think they were like seventeen four stainless, which isn't something that the manufacturers even make golf clubs out of anymore. So I wanted to do forged and bring that aspect. And that's what most people wanted anyway. It's like, oh man, if the 962 B was forged, it would be a God iron.

Speaker 2:

And so I was like, yes, we definitely go forged. And we used ten twenty carbon steel, a nice soft workable carbon and same steel that like Mira uses in their irons. So that was one of the things that really surprised me the most was hitting it and how soft they actually felt and being able to capture that. Because most of the irons back then made in the stainless steel era of casting actually had what what are previously known as like Sensicor, which was a plastic rod shoved down an iron shaft wrapped in foam to absorb vibration because they just didn't feel very good. And, you know, Mizuno definitely had an an edge on the market when they were making their MP 29 and MP fourteens, the forged, you know, they felt great.

Speaker 2:

And so making them forged was just a big part of that, but improving on the sole design. In fact, one of my followers had said, I just got to play Augusta and I brought the nine sixty two b's and they did nothing but dig straight into the ground. Because the iron style.

Speaker 1:

Well, and that's why you got that triple console.

Speaker 2:

Well, it makes such a difference. And and here's the here's the factor that's that's tough to to translate. You've got these very talented engineers. They're getting feedback from the PGA tour players. And as we all know, PGA tour events are set up one way, cut short and baked fairways.

Speaker 2:

And they're rock hard because they want to give them forty, fifty yards a roll. If you play an iron with no bounce on that, you're totally fine. And so, you know, very traditional iron like a Titleist six twenty MB. That's a great iron for hard baked fairways because you're basically playing off concrete. But we don't play in those conditions.

Speaker 2:

In fact, those conditions are so severe that it takes a golf course a couple of weeks to recover from the damage that that type of a fairway setup actually does. And so we play in golf courses that might be overwatered. We had just a little bit taller grass so it can handle the heat better. You know, a little bit softer conditions or maybe, you know, we're playing on Bermuda. And so having a golf club with more bounce was, you know, obviously a proven factor when it came to like the Strix and ZX sevens.

Speaker 2:

So making sure that we had a good bounce formula was really important.

Speaker 1:

Last year, we were working with Josh on his iron set and found that higher bounce, was giving him a better turf interaction, better, more consistent, you know, ball flight as well. So this is something that I think people don't market because it's harder to explain. It's not as much of a hot button item that gets you to say, I'll buy that right now really quick off a website, ship to your house. You know, this is definitely for those golfers that are looking to refine their game, look for consistency, they know their flight windows, you know, and like you said, it's a nine handicap and lower. You don't have to be a scratch golfer to be looking for this type of, you know, performance, this type of consistency.

Speaker 1:

Now, a little bit of a pivot, traditional loft, what I would call tiger lofts. Tiger still pushes, you know, like the 34 degree seven iron for a reference for those out there. And what I see in your irons is the same. You got a 34 degree seven iron. This is not a vanity, a vanity handicap type situation.

Speaker 1:

This is not a vanity seven iron, a 190 yards. You know, they're looking for gapping between my irons. Can I hit my flight windows? I don't care if it says seven iron, and I don't care if it goes one ninety. It's doing what I'm telling it to do.

Speaker 1:

You can always add clubs at the top or the bottom of the bag. You know, what's your opinion on that? The the traditional, you know, lofts and the average golfer that's sitting out there with his buddies saying, oh, yeah. I'm hitting a seven. And the other guy is saying, well, I'm hitting a six or a five.

Speaker 2:

It's it's definitely a challenge that a lot of golfers face whether they know it or not. And if I were to give advice to golfers around what they should do this year, first and foremost, before you even get a golf lesson, before you go get fit for new equipment or buy something, find out a way that you can do a gapping session. There's a lot of access to these little, you know, pop up launch monitor shops in cities now where you can get on a track man or a GC quad. Get an opportunity to hop on those and do a gapping session where you get 10 good shots from each club and find out where the yardages go. And I would safely bet a $100 that, you know, more than half of the listeners would find out they've got two clubs in the bag doing the same thing and are useless.

Speaker 2:

You know, that's really what it comes down to. I mean, a loft is a loft. Right? Whatever the number on the bottom kinda doesn't matter anymore because it's all over the market. But just making sure that whatever it is you're playing, the lofts are are doing what they're supposed to, and you're finding the gapping that you want.

Speaker 2:

And and most golfers are probably going to fall in that 10 to 11 yard gap range between their golf clubs, or at least that's a target. And then if you're a faster swinger, you know, you're swinging in the one seventy mile per hour ball speeds, then you're gonna probably be in that 13 to 15 yard range on your gapping. So just make sure you've got that because you need the clubs to do what they're supposed to do.

Speaker 3:

Speaker Westin, what do you think about being fit for a grip these days and going with a bigger grip in the modern day era as you see players like Bryson coming out with these jumbo grips?

Speaker 2:

If it's good for your hands, do it. I do think you should be measured. There's not very many manufacturers that provide a measurement metric for what you should do, but I also think you should feel comfortable. Right? I do play a mid size with a plus four from a golf pride, so I have a bigger group, but I also wear double XL golf gloves.

Speaker 2:

So for me, it's definitely

Speaker 4:

That's a miss.

Speaker 2:

A much Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty big. So, yeah, I think finding the right grip size is important, but I think, and you're welcome to quote me on it, but I don't think there has been one significant study that has proven that grip size changes how you swing the golf club. You know, if you play a thin grip or a thick grip, it's not affecting rotation.

Speaker 2:

And I know there's been some of that fitting myth out there, but I I don't think I've seen one documented study that somebody who has thin grips rotates the club faster than somebody who has thick grips. It I I think it's a complete misnomer.

Speaker 1:

Gotta be something that's in the head. It's gotta be, you know, more of a feel difference than it is, you know, a a scientifically proven difference. Now, Patrick, I think we've got a great different, yeah.

Speaker 4:

We've gone really deep into and and nerded out on the specs, the irons, zooming out and looking at your portfolio at large, I mean, we're talking about more boutique limited run stuff and shifting focus more over to the business side of things. Talk a little bit about how you're approaching it because I think you've done a first run of the irons, second one's coming, all of your putters, very, limited run. How do you think about growing your business? Because obviously, then unit economics come into play and you don't wanna get too far away from your roots as as a specialist manufacturer.

Speaker 2:

That is a great question. And that's actually on my mind pretty much every day. And I keep an ear to the economy and how we're doing things. Tariffs play a huge part in the golf equipment manufacturing business. There are no like forging houses in America.

Speaker 2:

Like that makes it really hard to forge. There is one. There's there's one, but they're singular to their own golf club, which is like P 53 irons. They bought an old forging facility and they make only their irons, but you know, tailor made or titleist couldn't go to them and say, we'd like you to manufacture for us. Those type of services just don't exist here from an iron perspective.

Speaker 2:

The last foraging house that actually did stuff was Hoffman. I think they're out of Kentucky or Tennessee, but they shut down back in the late nineties. So being able to do that in The U S is a very challenging thing. And I want to make as much stuff in The United States as possible. And maybe we'll get to that point, but, but right now, you know, with the focus on the metal market, it's very challenging to to want to scale appropriately while still creating high quality equipment that I that I feel it should be.

Speaker 2:

And not just kind of, I don't want to say copying out, just like, you know, going overseas and being able to make more at a lot higher cost. Right.

Speaker 4:

But you don't want to lose your soul.

Speaker 2:

Right. Right. Exactly. But I also want people, I don't want to make just thousand dollar putters because there's only a certain market that can handle that. And obviously I have a lot of pride in my equipment, but you know, for me, if I calculate the cost of manufacturing just 27 putters in The US out of stainless steel, I can make a 100 overseas.

Speaker 2:

And now that allows me to make a product, which by the way, it's still good, but I can tap into a more of a market share. Right? I can get into the $500 market putter, putter market, which then lets more people experience, you know, the product that I make. And that's, is a very hard decision for me to cope with because it's not my main gig. It's a side gig that I have a lot of passion into.

Speaker 2:

But I want to make sure it's done and scaled appropriately. And obviously quality control is a huge factor when I get to drive down to my CNC shop and see how the product's being made and make sure everything's tip top. I can't do that. You know, if I, if I go overseas and so, you know, those are the challenges that I face, you know, that, and I constantly think about logistics shipping and it's a business thing.

Speaker 3:

And so off of that, like how do people typically find you? Is that all word-of-mouth right now, just because of those that use your equipment are super into the niche market and they want to follow you?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. That's really how people find me. I wish I could spend more time marketing than I actually do now, but Instagram has been that main channel. And, you know, I'm so grateful for a platform like that because twenty years ago there was nothing where you could access the market in the way that Instagram does. And so all of my content is organic.

Speaker 2:

I probably need to change this in my business, but I have never paid for any advertising. I should probably do that so I can move more product, but you know, I just keep it organic and try and make the best content that I can and, you know, capture the minds and hearts of people by making, you know, truly unique and well made golf equipment.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Mean, it's an art what you're doing at this level. The attention to detail, you are hands on on every piece of product that you put out, which is very different than when you're buying a product from nearly any other manufacturer out there. And, you know, speaking of the artist side, I know, it begs the question, do you want to work at a large OEM as the one designing these clubs?

Speaker 2:

That that's actually the end goal. Right? So I I do want to do that. Know, I, for me, I would love to be the next Scottie Cameron. Right.

Speaker 2:

And that opportunity, if it ever came up, I would certainly take it right off the bat because the opportunity to expand your resources in that way would be amazing to where I could really kind of go off the hook.

Speaker 1:

So if you did, if someone came in tomorrow and said, Westin, we love what you're doing, your attention to detail, your artistry on this, and you were to step into that role in a any large manufacturer of note, and they said, what's the first thing that we need to do to our manufacturing process overseas, in The States, or anything, what would it be? What would that first thing be when you walk in the door to that team and say, okay, here's what we're doing?

Speaker 2:

It's kind of an intangible, and a lot of times it's an opinion based thing. I think from a business perspective, they've got things down pat when it comes to manufacturing, their channels, their distribution, all that stuff is so well vetted on their end. To me, it really just comes down to the artistry of the design. And I think that's where, you know, you you guys as golfers can pick up a putter and without even being able to describe what you don't like about it, you could just say this doesn't work for me. And and that's that's a really interesting factor to consider when you're when you're designing a putter.

Speaker 2:

And so I come from an artist background and engineering background. And so I blend that and try to make beautiful things. And so one of the things that I focus on, and I would definitely have manufacturers change how they approach things, is not just making things exact because it should be, for instance, a putter could be divided up visually in thirds. But very rarely will you actually see well, on a very well designed putter, those thirds won't actually measure perfectly. They will be different because in between those sections there are radiuses where light is bending and causing gaps.

Speaker 2:

And so, you know, if a putter has a top line that's thin and then the midsection's thick and then the back edge is is also thin, The way you curve the light off the back could make the back edge look way thinner than it really is. And it could make the middle section look thinner or the top line look thicker. And so you get this proportionality that you have to be aware of when you're when you're trying to factor light bending off of curved edges. And that is one aspect most putter makers just have no understanding. No not even a concept of what's happening.

Speaker 4:

So do I gather that we're not gonna see a zero torque Westin Maughan design anytime soon?

Speaker 2:

No. No. Not at all. And and I think it's a great technology. Right?

Speaker 2:

And I think there's lot of golfers that can benefit from it. But if I if I were to offer some unsolicited advice on what we should do with zero torque putters, it would be don't change what you're doing. Like, I think the tailor made zero torque looks fantastic. I think the new labs look fantastic. I just think they're going in the wrong direction from a putter weight perspective.

Speaker 2:

I think putters are getting significantly too heavy. And I have golfed with so many golfers that love the lab putter, but they still three putt a lot.

Speaker 3:

The best putter I ever had was my, old bullseye putter. And I ended up putting it back in my bag a couple of years ago because I found that I had to be so focused when I hit it. That I actually ended up taking out at some of my three putts because it, it really made me focus on the putt versus the new ballots, as you just said, with the big heads, seemed like it took some of the work away from me.

Speaker 2:

I think it puts people on autopilot and makes them use bigger muscles to to stroke the putter because it is larger and heavier. Maybe it's, you know, a mid length putter or whatever. They just get so heavy. And I think speed control is just that thing that is kind of overlooked. But and this is why I would I would encourage golfers to focus on speed more than line.

Speaker 2:

Even if you have the perfect line, was the face squared impact? Did you have sand between the face and the ball? Was there any debris that your ball hit while it was rolling? Was the green cut, you know, consistently from where your ball is to the hole? All those factors, environmental factors, even if you have the right line, that ball is not gonna go in.

Speaker 2:

Think you've seen those videos where the guy has the ball rolling, he rolls 10 balls, and they're all doing something different on the green. Like, to me, the best thing a golfer can do is just get the ball closer to the hole.

Speaker 4:

Still tough for an amateur to make a six footer comeback.

Speaker 2:

It is. Right? It is. Yeah. And if you forged

Speaker 1:

that right speed, your proximity to the hole, even if you're left, right or long, right? You're Yeah. Three foot left or three foot right, you're still only have a three foot putt for that second one coming in versus I got that line, but I definitely hit it too hard or I left it too short. Now I'm with that six footer, you know? That's where

Speaker 3:

those two Can you give us a story of a PGA tour pro that you saw was just fanatical when it came to like putting and that we should emulate and study off of?

Speaker 2:

I think, I mean, it's pretty hard to stray from like your Ben Crenshaw and Brad Faxon. Right? And these guys led putting stats year over year over year. And both of them played putters that are lighter than what today's standards are. And tour greens, they're not, there's not a big difference between how fast they were in the nineties to now.

Speaker 2:

You know, they still had, you know, Augusta fast greens back in the nineties. And so maybe they they bumped up by a a stim meter, like one or two, but they still had to have speed control. But a lot of them, I've dove into this putting stats and I think the one thing that I've found is that in a very gradual curve, they're just getting worse at putting. And it's very gradual. But statistically, as a whole, their putting percentages are getting worse.

Speaker 2:

And that's that's irrefutable. You can look at the evidence on the averages and and there's there's a reason for that. Maybe the greens are getting faster and harder, but it's not like that big of a difference on the PGA tour. I think it goes it's around putter weight. Honestly, I think putters are too heavy and sometimes speed gets out of their control.

Speaker 3:

And if we gotten so obsessed with hitting it as far as possible, and we've talked about with these irons and then drivers that maybe they've taken a little bit away from being the best putters in the world.

Speaker 2:

I mean, statistically, you don't have to be the best putter that week to win. That I think that's changing how people see things. If you're number one in driving and approach, and then you're still in the top 10 of putting, but maybe you're tenth that week, you're winning the tournament, like, hands down. And so there's a lot of opportunity to gain more strokes on the field in different aspects of the game than putting, but you still have to be great that week, you know, actually close the deal.

Speaker 4:

Coming coming back to lab and the moment that it is having specifically because it's a very different price point, a lab putter versus even the Taylor Made versus some of the zero torque stuff that say Callaway or Odyssey, sorry, is doing now. Does that, in your opinion and for West the Westin Maughan's of the world, does that open up a little bit because of the relative price point of the product, a greater story of the market for you?

Speaker 2:

I think it does, you know. I think people are getting more accustomed to spending high ticket prices on golf clubs. And what, I mean, I have never had anybody complain about the quality of my product. I certainly don't cut any corners, you know, and so making my product on five axis CNC, it's not cheap, but it's incredibly consistent. Like if there was a Xerox machine in the golf equipment business, it's a five axis, right?

Speaker 2:

Cause you're, you could hit every angle perfectly. And these putters come out within, you know, one gram of each other, right, right off the bat. So it's a pretty phenomenal technology and quality perspective. With that quality, I think people recognize that. And that's where some of that costs can be accepted and value is definitely received well.

Speaker 2:

I think in the lab perspective, one of the things that brings cost up for them is that, and this is why their product's done so well. Here's here's some of the insider secrets. ZT is its own technology and that's great. It's not necessarily new. There's been things in the past that have performed similarly from a performance perspective.

Speaker 2:

It's that those labs, when they went out, they were custom fit for the golfer. So I don't care what putter you have. If you go get custom fit for it and then it's sent to you, you're going to be a better putter. It's just hands down. And so because of that, they had to do lie angle adjustments and fittings and things like that.

Speaker 2:

And build club had specifically for the golfer, which increased costs, but it was the fitting that really drove the value of what was happening there.

Speaker 1:

Thousand percent. I I definitely understand that. I mean, the technology helps people kind of go on autopilot a little bit. The lie angle balance thing, we we definitely ascribe to it. I know Josh is searching for one, but as he's been searching, the question is, does it actually fit him?

Speaker 1:

And, you know, is it 67 degree lie angle? And is it the heavier weight? Or was it a counterbalance? You know, and all these different technologies, unless you go to somebody to get fit, you know, for those listening to the podcast, I mean, you definitely need to get someone that understands putters, that fits these for you, whether it's lie angle balance or something of a traditional design like you're gonna see on Westin's website, you know, that's that's the way to go. Now, earlier you mentioned the putter weight, and on Lab's website, they've got heavyweight standard and light.

Speaker 1:

And when you talked about Crenshaw, I know he was sitting between, you know, 03/5365 grams on the head weight. So I'm not sure how those compare. And it's very hard to test something that's online that says, oh, you're a heavyweight or you're a lightweight. And when you think about the speed control, that weight, like you said, has a big factor into that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah. I think putter weight is incredibly important. And and why I even brought up some of the older guys like Crenshaw and and Faxon. Just from a very simple physics perspective, if you have a lot of mass down there or more mass, you need to add more energy to move that mass. And the accuracy you're going to have moving that heavier mass is less as accurate with a heavier putter.

Speaker 2:

Just because it's harder to move. It's think of it like pushing a go kart versus pushing a car. Right? You're gonna put a lot of energy into pushing that car, but is that car gonna stop at that point where you want? You it's really hard to measure that.

Speaker 2:

But if it's a lighter object, it's really easy to push and gauge where that object's going to stop when you're done. And so that's why I think lighter putters are are key. And, you know, what does that mean? Well, I still want to make product for customers that want heavier stuff because they think that's for them. But at the same time, you know, I personally believe putters should range anywhere from three twenty grams to like a max three, three fifty, three sixty max.

Speaker 2:

But the only reason I'd say three sixty max is if the guy has like a 32 inch putter, which greatly changes the dynamics of the putter build. And that's why I'd go heavy on the shorter ones so that they still feel it. The balance point is is uniform across the builds. So if it was a 36 inch putter, I'd do like a 320 gram head, 35 would be three thirty. And that's about 20 grams lighter than the industry average right now, at least for Scottie Cameron.

Speaker 2:

But I would only make those heavier putters for golfers that wanted shorter ones. I would encourage golfers to play lighter putters for sure.

Speaker 1:

That's an interesting point. It brings you back to swing weight in irons, you know, d two, d three, d four. Most manufacturers ship things out between d zero and d two, and that doesn't mean the overall weight of the iron. It's the balance point on that iron and how it feels during the transition of your golf swing. So, you know, if you guys don't understand, swing weight, balance point, weight versus swing weight, you know, do a little bit of deep dive in that.

Speaker 1:

I'm sure we'll talk about it in a future episode. But let's move on. We're gonna do a lightning round. Most overrated gear buzzword right now.

Speaker 2:

Maybe it's zero torque. But everybody's gotta try it to find out for them. Right? And and I think it's an incredible technology, but it's not for a 100% of golfers. Otherwise, everybody on the PGA tour would be playing it.

Speaker 2:

But I think it's great for a lot of golfers. Would say darn near 10 to 15% of the golfing market fit perfect with zero torque and they should play those. But it's it's not a band aid for everybody. Right?

Speaker 4:

This might So

Speaker 2:

That's my point.

Speaker 4:

This might or might not affect your answer to the next one. What's one trend do you think is gonna be disappeared in two years?

Speaker 2:

I don't think three d printed equipment is going to go as far as it should or people might anticipate. Three d printing is an evolving technology and maybe it'll get better, but I don't think it's at a point where it's like a highly viable, you know, business model. When we have some of these tried and true processes like forging irons, you have to do things from an engineering perspective to get something like that to feel like a forged iron. I know it can be done, but I just like, why go to all that work?

Speaker 1:

On that point, this year is gonna be pivotal to find that out because Cobra took their three d p irons from last year, turned it into an entire line. You have three different irons coming out from Cobra this year, including a muscle back that are all three d printed. So this will be very interesting to watch, how golfers react to, you know, these clubs, their feel, plus the manufacturing. Can the manufacturing catch up? And when we talked about overseas versus, you know, things printed or forged in The States, you know, now we have three d printing and will that help us onshore some of this manufacturing assuming that it can keep up with the expectations of players?

Speaker 2:

I could be totally proven wrong. Right. And I'm okay with that. When it comes to like forging a golf club, there's just something about moving steel into its shape and having that condensed grain structure that I don't think is achievable in three d printing. So to me, it's, it's kind of going backwards.

Speaker 2:

It's like going back to cast clubs. That's kind of why I thought that.

Speaker 3:

For the average golfer function versus aesthetics, which one's more important?

Speaker 2:

Oddly enough, I think aesthetic, you know, you would think I'd say function, but man, Porsches are not very functional, but you sure feel good when you're sitting in them.

Speaker 3:

When you say it over that golf ball and you see

Speaker 2:

it, it's gotta look good. It's gotta It's gotta look look good. Good.

Speaker 3:

You look good. You feel good. You good. You play good. You play good.

Speaker 3:

They pay good.

Speaker 2:

You know? And, I just think that's important to to a golfer. You wanna have something that inspires confidence. You wanna have something that you're you've you fall in love with. Right?

Speaker 2:

Like, if you're putting in there just for a mechanical purpose, it's gonna get switched out really quick and you're gonna buy a lot of golf clubs. But if you like love something because the way it looks, even if you're not that great at it, you're still gonna love it. And I think that goes a long way for a golfer.

Speaker 1:

It's right here in the head. Right? When you stand over a putt, when you stand over a shot, if you have any doubt creep into your head, it affects your overall performance. And yes, technology can help you with a lot of these things, but ultimately, if those aesthetics look really good, I can definitely see how that can help somebody perform really well because they feel confident over this putter. It's something they're used to, a feel they're used to.

Speaker 1:

They've used it for ten years potentially, or maybe they just love the story behind it, love the way it looks, love the way it feels. You know, they're gonna think that ball's gonna go in the hole more than they think, oh, I might miss this right. Let's see. Next question. One thing golfers would stop caring about if they understood gear better.

Speaker 1:

Distance. Love it. One word answer. That's the king right there.

Speaker 2:

That's it.

Speaker 4:

What excites you the most about what you're building next?

Speaker 2:

So what I'm building next is just more putter offerings. I just did a recent collaboration with PowerBuilt and designed a blade putter with them. And to me, being able to put my stamp on specific designs, like, I'll be honest, the the first one I did, it's very tiger esque. Right? There's not much to that putter that's my own.

Speaker 2:

I just wanted to take that putter and and do it, you know, on a five access machine with really high quality materials and a little bit heavier head weight. So there's really not much of mine in that. But the subsequent models that I release will be very much mine. There'll be, you know, ones that I designed from the ground up that start from scratch. And so those those designs definitely mean more to me as as I continue to produce equipment.

Speaker 2:

And so I'm really, really excited with that new blade that came out, and I'm gonna try and release two new designs this year in 2020 Again, it'll be my take on on, you know, there's not really much new to do out there, but how you execute is is pretty important, I believe. And so I'm I'm excited to see how I do with those, new designs.

Speaker 4:

Can't wait to see them.

Speaker 3:

Give us one story from your days back caddying on the PGA tour.

Speaker 2:

This is the best one. So I'm in a practice round and I've got Trey Mullinax and I forget his name. Who is the the black golfer that went to live? Varner. A little bit shorter.

Speaker 2:

Harold Varner. So Harold Varner and Trey Molinax and my and my player were sitting on like the sixth tee. And during this practice round, they have these kind of makeshift coolers that have like Gatorade and all this stuff. And I had set my players bag down. And I leaned back on it thinking that it was a solid structure.

Speaker 2:

And it was not. This thing folded like a cheap suit. And there was ice and Gatorade everywhere. And I was just sitting right in the middle of it. And Trey was blasting up.

Speaker 2:

He could not contain himself, and he felt bad that he was laughing. But it was like the funniest thing. And I was like, I was laughing too because I just completely obliterated this cooler stand. So that was that was a fun moment and something I'll never forget.

Speaker 1:

I bet he played great after that. Just all the weight lifted, just having a great day. Literally broke the ice. That's great. Okay.

Speaker 1:

So final question. If golfers remember one thing from this conversation, what should it be?

Speaker 2:

I would and and I don't think it's anything we've said, but build your golf bag with intention. Right? Make sure each club has its own purpose and it does its job well. And I think that if golfers do that, they'll definitely enjoy the game more.

Speaker 1:

Man, I love that. That's so good. Westin, thank you so much for joining us. Definitely, everybody that's on this podcast watching us right now, go to his Instagram, check out his products if you have not already, it's really cool stuff. The attention to detail, the what he talks about behind the build of each of these really gives you an appreciation for his clubs, really clubs in general, what it takes to pull these things off.

Speaker 1:

You know, thank you guys for joining us.

Speaker 3:

We appreciate it.

Speaker 4:

Thanks, West, and great having you on.

Speaker 2:

No. I I really appreciate it, and I I thank you for taking the time to to add a little guy like me on here and have these conversations, and and it really means a lot to me, and it makes a difference in in me running my small business. So I I really appreciate it.

Speaker 1:

I I hope it does. And maybe, you won't be a little guy here soon. One of these OEMs will snap you up and

Speaker 4:

We knew him when.

Speaker 3:

When you're rich and famous one day, just remember us.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely. I will. I never forget.