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Here on Equine Assisted World. We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and, established in the equine assisted field. This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have that these lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
Your Host is New York Times bestselling author Rupert Isaacson. Long time human rights activist, Rupert helped a group of Bushmen in the Kalahari fight for their ancestral lands. He's probably best known for his autism advocacy work following the publication of his bestselling book "The Horse Boy" and "The Long Ride Home" where he tells the story of finding healing for his autistic son. Subsequently he founded New Trails Learning Systems an approach for addressing neuro-psychiatric conditions through horses, movement and nature. The methods are now used around the world in therapeutic riding program, therapy offices and schools for special needs and neuro-typical children.
You can find details of all our programs and shows on www.RupertIsaacson.com.
Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine
Assisted World, Betsy.
Carl, who is joining me today,
is an old, old, old compadre.
We used to run new trails together
our ranch in Texas, and we couldn't
have done it without Betsy.
Betsy was
the mainstay, the rudder, the lifeblood,
the, you know, all the good things.
And one of the reasons why Betsy was
all these things was not just her
knowledge of horses, but the fact that
she had come a really interesting path
through path, what used to be nara.
She's a senior path instructor, which.
Was interesting for us because people
normally see horse boy as the sort of
antithesis the opposite of path, and
in some ways that's not unfounded.
And at the same time as working with us,
she continued to work at the local large
path center in Austin, Texas, not just
as a service provider, but also as a
senior instructor in the PATH trainings.
So it was very interesting that
she really bridged that gap.
She's also very accomplished,
dressage rider and trainer
and all round horse person.
So if you look up the word awesome in the
dictionary you actually find a picture
of Betsy next to that next to that word.
So, Betsy, thanks for coming on.
You now live in Bend, Oregon doing
interesting things in the Rockies.
Thanks for coming on the show.
I, I want to delve into your
knowledge of where you feel equine
assisted work was when you first got
into it, where you feel it is now
and where you would like it to go.
So over to you.
Betsy Kahl: Well, thank you.
Yeah, it's been a fun journey the
time I've shared with you and the
time we had in Texas together.
And yeah, for, for PATH
people who may be listening.
I'm an advanced therapeutic writing
instructor with the CTRI certification
as well, so we've been going through
quite a lot of acronyms and other
things in the, in the industry.
But yes so for those who care
about letters after names,
that's what it would be.
And I believe I was certified,
oh, lordy, back in like 2007.
2006.
2006.
Sounds about right.
And so it's been quite some time
that I've, I've carried that.
Certification and worked in
and out and in and out of the
industry as people often do.
So I'm not sure where, how much
you want to know or where you wanna
start with any of that, but I could,
Rupert Isaacson: I think what I'd
like you to do is shoot from the hip.
Okay.
You, you, because you have
a really good overview of
what's good about each system where
they probably have more in common
than they might think they do.
Mm-hmm.
And you yourself have had to tread the
line of melding, you know, the different
methodologies together, whether it was
working, you know, in a path context,
but informed by horse, boys say, or
tacking, which you also helped me.
Develop, which we should go into.
And the other way around, you know,
working in horse Boy and, but informed by,
I guess, the orthodoxy of the mainstream
as, as well as being on the edge.
It, it's a really interesting, I, I, I
dunno, anyone else really who's tro Yeah.
That path, you know, so I, I, I
think it's really over to you.
I, I'd like you to sort of fire Okay.
Talk about what was good, what was
bad, what you'd like to see change,
what you'd like to develop more of.
Just go.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Well, one thing that came to mind
as you were talking was, obviously
I didn't well, not obviously but I
didn't just, you know, one day be
like, oh, I wanna be a path instructor.
So I was very fortunate growing
up to, we had a a in the public
park system near where I lived.
There was a riding facility that
was part of a nonprofit park system
and offered riding lessons, boarding
and also therapeutic riding.
So, I grew up riding there,
starting around age 12.
And so the horses that I
learned to ride on were all
exceptionally talented, very kind.
Some, maybe not as kind, but all
just generous horses that could
walk, trot, canner, and jump.
And these were the horses that
would one day a week also work
in adaptive riding as well.
When they offered it.
So I think even just growing up there
and seeing it was sort of a normal
thing that your horses that would work
in therapeutic programs, could also
teach, could also compete in local
shows, could also do all of the things.
Right.
And yeah, it
Rupert Isaacson: wasn't
niche from the get go.
Betsy Kahl: No, no.
And it was a thing that as I've
worked in different programs and
different places and kind of traveled
from I've taught from New Hampshire
to Ohio, Texas, and now Oregon.
So I mean, as you kind of move
across the country you start
to see different things of.
What is and is not sort
of the assumed normal.
And and so I started to realize
like, oh, well this is unique.
You know what?
Valley riding, which is still hands down,
I say one of the best places to learn.
And so Valley
Rupert Isaacson: Riding,
Betsy Kahl: valley Riding Incorporated.
Yeah.
It's run by Valley
Rupert Isaacson: Riding
Incorporated in Cleveland, Ohio.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
Anyone who's looking to learn to ride or
if you have kids that wanna ride go there.
Bus horses.
Okay.
Actually one horse that
when I was teaching there.
Is still, I found him for the program
and he's still in the program,
this little pony named bumper.
I mean, gotta love him.
So, and bumper was Mr.
Jack of all trades too, you
know, walk, trot, can or JUMP
did Adaptive, did all the things.
And I apparently still is
doing all those things.
So, so yeah, it was, it was
just very normal to, to believe
a horse could do all of that.
And not every horse wanted to
work in the adaptive program or,
but that was fine too, right?
They all had a place, they
all had their purpose.
And so that I think was where that.
Idea of like, yeah, a
horse is not limited.
Like
Rupert Isaacson: there
Betsy Kahl: actually will, if you
offer the right support and the right
timing, like will want to show up.
They want to work and feel
good about their jobs and so
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, they
enjoy variety like a human does,
Betsy Kahl: basically.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, and again, because it was in
a public park system, you know, there
were trails so you could easily just
go out from the arena down the trail.
You know, you had all, all the bonuses
that come with a public park system,
like, you know, you never knew what
would be around the corner sometimes or
Rupert Isaacson: would be
Betsy Kahl: hanging over the fence.
But but yeah, it was, it was lovely.
And so.
So that's where I first encountered
adaptive writing too, is when they
started offering that program.
I started volunteering 'cause I was
probably, you know, 14 is the age where
path allows you to start to volunteer.
And and that's how I became exposed to
it and always enjoyed it, but didn't
go after, pursue that in college.
So there was a brief, so I guess from like
12 to 18 I did nothing but eat, sleep,
breathe horses while maintaining grades.
So I could continue doing that.
And then went off to college, was
out of horses for a while and I
think probably started getting back
into it around like 24 ish and just
go back into taking riding lessons.
And then I went, decided I wanted
to pursue getting certified.
And so I went to get certified
at a place in New Hampshire.
They did like a three month
instructor intensive, I suppose.
And also a place though where their
horses worked in summer camps, would
walk, trot, can, or jump, you know.
So they were also horses that
in addition to doing adaptive
riding, could do a variety of other
programming and so yeah, was at
horsepower in Temple, New Hampshire.
And that's where I found my current horse.
One of my current horse is Stewart.
He was there as a I don't even
know what sail, sail horse.
So I took him on as my training
project while I was getting certified.
'cause that was something their
program had you do as well was
like not just go through the.
Technical aspect of teaching and how
you're supposed to structure a class
and all the, you know, safety standards
that are very important as well.
But in addition to that, they wanted
to make sure that you were teaching
riding lessons to, at least for me,
I was teaching lessons to the public
and also had your horse training
project too, so that, you know,
depending on what you could offer,
that you were bringing a horse along.
So Stewart was my, my training project
that ended up becoming my forever project.
So, so, so I think, yeah, I, yeah,
there might be some things in there.
You wanna,
Rupert Isaacson: well, the,
the, the, I think there's
something that we should just.
Quickly cover, which is that
what you did at college?
So you're a social worker?
Betsy Kahl: Well, not in college.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Right.
So,
Betsy Kahl: so I had a Yeah.
But I currently am a
social worker and Yeah.
Which I think massively
Rupert Isaacson: informs
your equine assisted stuff.
So just talk through what you did
at college and how you became a
social worker, and then how that
informed what you did with horses.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
In college, oh, I thought I wanted
to do pre veterinary medicine.
I quickly realized that was not for me.
Perhaps I was not up for the academic
rigor, we can put it that way.
And then did a semester in business
and then changed to English and
ended up with a degree in English.
And so post-college, I just dabbled
around in theater arts for about a year.
Cleaned horse stalls for part of that
time too, and a year after my mom said,
what are you doing with your life?
You need to get, get it together.
Sounds
Rupert Isaacson: like fun to me.
I dunno.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, it was fun.
You know, I, I love the theater arts
and has, that's been a huge, it's
had a very healing place in my life.
Mm-hmm.
And and so, so yeah.
But my mom was concerned that
I would just be doing shows and
serving tables and cleaning stalls.
And so she's like, what are you gonna do?
And I didn't know what one did with the
degree in English besides perhaps teach.
And so I then entered a Master's
in Secondary Education program.
I was in that for about.
Eight months of the year that would
it take to complete before I dropped
out for a variety of reasons.
But then then yeah, I was back
into just theater, picking up
random teaching theater arts jobs.
Eventually that led to the Great
Lakes Theater Festival School
Actor Teacher Residency program.
So for two years I traveled with
another actor and we taught Shakespeare
in the schools and stage combat and
a bunch of other things, as well
as other classic theater pieces.
And then that after that was when I was
like, what do I wanna really do now?
And that's when I went and trained to
be a therapeutic riding instructor,
was certified at the advanced level
after that program in New Hampshire.
Got my first job at a path center with my
first horse was hemorrhaging money paying
for board and trying to survive on that.
Some other gigs came my way.
I got a three week stint on a cruise
ship being a magician's assistant.
And then another three weeks doing
a opening act for a show in Vegas.
And so during that time, like I lost
that first job at the Path Center
due to some conflicts, but while I
was on the cruise ship, got the job
offer to become the riding instructor
at Valley Ridings Breville stables.
So did that.
So then finally got a full-time job
where I could afford to live, have my
horse, and was teaching public riding
lessons and volunteer coordinating
for their therapeutic riding.
And then about 2, 2, 3 years
into that was when I started to
question, okay, what is next?
And realizing that a lot of what I was
seeing in adaptive writing to ended up
being more social, emotional, behavioral
health, and as well as showing up
sometimes in my public writing lessons too
and in different degrees and just working.
Being more supportive for people
who were bringing their own
anxieties or things to, to lessons.
And you know, the mental health
field was not too foreign to me.
My dad was a psychiatrist, so it's sort
of something that I had always been aware
of, but not necessarily social work.
And so I wasn't sure what I wanted to
do, but knew something mental healthy.
I went to volunteer at an organization
called The Gathering Place in Cleveland,
which offers, free support for
individuals, families, and friends who
whose lives have been touched by cancer.
'cause that's something
that's very important to me.
And at that volunteer interview,
ended up getting me a job as
their animal camp coordinator.
They were doing a summer camp
where they partner with a
variety of different animals.
One week being horse week, but
other weeks being different animals
from puppies to kittens to wild
animals through the natural history,
rehabilitate, rehabilitation.
And so that program was run by a social
worker and a child life specialist.
I think also, oh man, was
she also a social worker?
I'm not sure.
But but anyways, those two women
were phenomenally impactful in this
idea of, wow, okay, we can take.
Mental health, but not make it a
drudgery, not drudgery is a strong word.
Make it, make it enjoyable.
Right.
Not make it feel so clinical.
Right.
And that we can do it in a variety
of environments and that we can trust
that if we set up a supportive space
with, you know, supportive adults,
that and these novel experiences,
kids will be able to start to, you
know, treat themselves in a way.
You kind of put all the raw materials out
there and and how, how wonderfully healing
that could be and and, and doing it in a
way that promoted not just yes, you can.
Process what it's like to be a
kid whose life has been touched
by cancer, who has had a family
member's lives touched by cancer.
You can also while doing that, build
mastery in another area, right?
So they were learning.
Some pretty cool things they
could do to support these animals
and develop that relationship.
And then at the end, you know, of
each week there would be a family
day where they could showcase
what they've learned, right.
And and really be seen as
the expert on something.
And so, so yeah, that job really
got me jazzed about the idea of
combining mental health with animal
assisted therapies or activities.
And so yeah, then I went
and became a social worker.
And then
Rupert Isaacson: why social worker though?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's
quite, that's quite niche.
Like, there, there were other, other,
you could have become a psychologist.
You could have become a psychotherapist.
You could have, you know, there are
other avenues you could have gone.
And a lot of people within the
sort of equine assisted world do.
Why social
Betsy Kahl: work?
I.
Went and talked to different department
heads at Cleveland State University
and tried to get a feel of what
the different perspectives were.
And this is at least
my understanding on it.
It's not to say that's the only way
to look at it or that it's the right
way to look at it, but you know, when
I knew I didn't wanna do a doctorate,
you know, so that was kind of like, for
me, it was like, okay, I wasn't going
to go try to do the PhD in psychology.
Certainly not medical school.
So, so then it was what can you
have a master's degree in and still
practice clinically, which took
it to counseling or social work.
And I, for my pers to feel on it, was
that counseling was going to be more on
I more on yeah.
Like kind of analyzing and really.
Like the inner part of the per
or sort of siloed on the person.
I'm not saying that's the way it always
is but social work really looked at
like, okay, how does this person interact
with systems in their environment?
Right.
And, and I liked that idea of
just felt less pathologizing even
though you're still diagnosing.
But, and also the people who I met
again through animal camp being social
workers, I really respected and valued
how they seemed to work and be able
to balance, you know, that mental
health piece, but also figuring out.
How you can adapt and modify
environments and systems and so, so
yeah, it was never just about like
that person who's having a problem.
It was like really looking
at through a wider lens.
And, and I think that's a little bit
more of an orientation that social work
tends to draw from is again, like, you
know, looking through systems, looking
at the person in relation to their
environment, looking at various ways you
can create change that can end up being
supportive, not just, you know, trying
to get the person to change themselves.
And so, so that's, that's where I
grab why I gravitated towards it.
And yeah, so then outta grad school,
I got my first job at a larger
community mental health center.
And, they contracted with schools.
So I was like a traveling
school-based therapist as
well as doing home-based work.
And one of the schools I ended up being
placed at was a school that specialized
in providing like an alternative
education setting for kids who were not
thriving in more traditional settings.
And many of these children were diagnosed
with autism amongst other things.
And they ended up offering me, instead
of contracting with the agency, they
offered me a full-time job to come
and be their school-based therapist.
So I ended up doing that for about
three years and then moved to Texas.
So, so anyways, right from going to grad
school and social working and starting
trying to get my clinical hours, there
wasn't a lot of, you know, I, I left
the university with my graduate degree
thinking, okay, I'm gonna start making
like animal camps all over the world.
Like, but, or all over this area.
But there wasn't really
like a job for that.
And so you're just kind of getting your
clinical work in whichever way you can.
You're at supervision hours.
So there were not a ton
of animal opportunities.
But thankfully once I started
working at that school, I was
allowed to sort of create some stuff.
So while I couldn't bring horses
to the classroom we ended up
incorporating Shakespeare program.
So I had the actor teacher
friends from my old job.
We worked and brought a theater
arts residency week there.
And that was really, really awesome to see
how Shakespeare could be performed as well
as other classic pieces with the variety
of, we had, you know, ages, I think, ooh.
Four to like 21, 22 at that school.
And some speaking, some or yeah,
speaking some non-speaking students
and how we could, yeah, how theater
was something that no matter what, how
you communicated you could perform and
how, how timeless those stories were.
That was super cool.
And then we also did a therapy dog
program, so different people who had
therapy dogs came and we did like a.
Biweekly, I think eight session therapy
dog thing, which worked out so well.
Then I ended up adopting my
golden retriever and getting him
certified as a therapy dog, and
he became the school therapy dog.
So I don't, lots of different weird
things, but then when I moved to
Texas, that was what I told myself.
I was like, okay, now I can
get back into trying to meld
horses with, with social work.
I'm back.
Rupert Isaacson: It's interesting.
I met you I remember actually
at this dressage barn.
Mm-hmm.
White fences in Mainor, Texas, which was
the next town on from Elgin, Texas, where
we were based and we were there for.
I can't remember if we
were doing taking a,
Betsy Kahl: I think you had
Christophe Hess there as a C.
That's right.
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.
We brought Christophe Hess.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Who,
Rupert Isaacson: for those listeners
who don't know who Christophe Hess is
or was, he was at that time the head
of education for the fn, which is the
German equivalent of the USEF or the
British Horse Society or whatever.
And we brought him over for a clinic.
That's right.
And he, we organized for him to
come over to the barn where you
were boarding your horse, I think.
And I ran into you and I had
one of those gut feelings.
I was like, oh, this person is
one of those people that can
like, do the lot whether it's on
the horse side or the human side.
And I remember we had this initial
conversation, where I sort of said,
would you kind of like to come check
out the interesting shit that we do?
And you kind of went, well, maybe,
you know, and then, yeah, that's
Betsy Kahl: my classic response.
Rupert Isaacson: And then you, even when
Betsy Kahl: Cody proposed
to me, I was like,
Rupert Isaacson: Cody, Cody again.
FE listeners that, dunno,
Betsy is, is her husband.
Yeah.
Yeah, I, I could see that.
Yeah.
But then you came out and you kind
of looked around and went, yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And next thing I knew you
are running our program.
The, I remember, I remember recognizing
this kind of versatility in you,
which was sort of a gut feeling.
'cause I didn't know your
background at that point.
I just saw that you.
Rode really well and had this kind
of open heart and inquiring mind.
And then I subsequently found out about
your, you know, therapeutic and social
work background before we get to how
you kind of melded the Orthodox of the
Unorthodox, which is path with Horse Boy.
And then out of that helped us to build
Athena, which is now called, which
we'll talk about why the name changed.
Before we go there, I'm interested
in your take on theater arts.
Hmm.
Why is this kind of crucial?
Why is this so good to have a background
in theater arts if you're going to deal
with equine assisted stuff, and then you,
you, you subsequently went from there
talking about Shakespeare for people who
don't speak, which is counterintuitive
because Shakespeare's all about language.
So just talk to us a little bit about
that before we go to the next stage.
Betsy Kahl: Okay.
So I think the first one was
theater arts and how it can be
helpful for people in mm-hmm.
Equine work.
I, well, I don't know.
I guess I've never thought about
how that's informed my equine
work as much, but I think one of
the ways it could be helpful is
that it's.
It's really about listening and
responding, if any, and, and
Rupert Isaacson: okay.
Betsy Kahl: To some degree, right?
So if you're doing any type of
performance, so much of it is
well being in the moment, right?
And, trying to truly understand
what whoever you're sharing the
stage with or whatever even is
happening audience wise, right?
Like
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Betsy Kahl: You know, my theater
career has been, their theatrical
stuff has been from, from Yeah.
Doing, you know, some stuff I'd like to
forget in various youth theaters too.
Not I like to forget, but like,
things that, like if it, someone would
say like, oh, we found this clip.
I'd be like, oh lord,
Rupert Isaacson: let's
call it a learning curve.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
Not because I feel like the
performance event, but like,
I'm talking like I don't know.
We did like a, I, my senior in high
school, I was in the tine rabbit.
I was one of the cool bunnies, so
I'm like dressed in this giant rabbit
costume, like singing the funny bunny
rag and hopping around, and I thought
it was like the coolest thing ever.
You know?
How
Rupert Isaacson: does
the funny bunny rag go?
Betsy Kahl: Do you want
the choreography too?
Yes,
Rupert Isaacson: please.
Betsy Kahl: You, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: You can't just
put that out there and not do it.
Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Well, let me see.
I don't know if I have enough space.
I can do it with this camera
angle, but, and there's two
other bunnies with me, right?
I was, okay,
Rupert Isaacson: we one on each side.
Are you the middle bunny?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, of course.
And this again, if you have the video,
I might not have it right, but so
we're telling the vine rabbit how to
be a, a real rabbit, you know, and
it goes just perk your ears up and
hear the bead and tell those rabbit
feet, you can't see my feet too.
Bounce along and don't be such a drag
start and never stop.
Just wind your hopper up
and do the funny bunny rag.
Hey.
And there's more.
But I think that's a sample.
Rupert Isaacson: Now you
were absolutely on pitch.
Oh, on key and on point there.
Betsy Kahl: Well, as, as you know, the
funny bunny rag, so, well, I could have
just made that up, but, but you know,
I think there's just that ability to
kind of surrender and have fun too.
Right.
Because like no one want.
So, so yeah, doing things like that,
working with other human beings to
tell and create and imagine stories.
And then also,
yeah, it requires, you'd
have to be present to
surrender to the emotions
that are showing up.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
Maybe
Betsy Kahl: not fighting,
but moving through them.
Mm-hmm.
And I think
Rupert Isaacson: that's,
Betsy Kahl: that's what, when I said
like, yeah, know theater really saved me
or healed me, I think that's what it was.
It was something that, not
Rupert Isaacson: fighting the emotion, but
surrendering to it and moving through it.
I love that.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Thank you.
And it's, it's a safe
container though, right?
And, and something that I always found
weird was sometimes you'd be like, oh,
it is so brave to be like, to do that
or on stage I, that's so courageous.
And I remember thinking like, I don't, for
me, I disagreed 'cause I felt experiencing
allowing myself to experience emotions
and theater felt so much safer than life.
'cause I knew where the story was going.
Rupert Isaacson: That is, I think
what I was trying to get to, I think
that, I don't think that, I know that
in the experience that I've had with
Shamanism, for example a shaman takes on
a role and they take on the role as the
healer, but they also take on the role
as your suffering and many other roles.
Yeah.
You.
As the person one, as the person going
for healing also takes on a role.
And that these roles are not
like negative masking, trying to
damp down your authentic self.
It's more like the type of practical
masking that you might do, for example,
to get in camouflage or to actually put a
mask on so that someone didn't recognize
you in a situation where if they did
recognize you, you might be in trouble.
Or let's say you're going to hunt a deer.
It might not be a terrible idea to put
on a disc and, and a pair of antlers.
Mm-hmm.
It's all about agency.
The idea of, of putting on roles.
I think I've definitely seen
this over the years for the
populations that we work with.
Mm-hmm.
When they learn how to do this in.
Exactly as you said, safe
containers, like a show
or a, a play date or a therapy session.
I like to call them play dates,
you know, where they can then trust
that the people around them, the
facilitators, you, me, will go with it.
This then translates to a certain
confidence that they can go out in the
world and function even while suffering
from imposter syndrome or fear or anxiety
or all the things that we all suffer from.
But of course, if you're on the
spectrum or going through some
mental health crisis situation,
it's going to be much more acute.
So I, I love the fact that you.
Can bring theater arts to that.
Do you feel that something along the
lines of theater, arts, role playing,
shape shifting should be a part of
the training for this kind of work?
Because, because you're
so good at it, right?
I mean, you've ran our program,
but you, you ran our program and
I watched you, I observed you,
and you would just be able to meld
yourself to not just the individual,
but to the groups that came in.
Mm-hmm.
And bring out the best in them and get
them doing things that they, you know, I
remember seeing a, a group of kids from
the
foster programs.
In Austin and I observed a bunch
of times you being able to get
through that anger and that hurt
and bring them to creativity,
self-advocacy through playing roles.
Why isn't this taught?
Why, why, why?
Why isn't this, whether it's with
horses or whether it's not with
horses, why isn't this a sort of
standard thing in mental health stuff?
Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, I mean, there
are avenues of mental health, I
suppose, where you lean into that.
I mean, there's, you know, and there's
even some treatment modalities that
emphasize, you know, the various roles
or various parts within a person.
But but as agree, yeah, but as I as you
were talking about like this, and to, to
tie it back to adaptive or equine assisted
services, like in a way you kind of,
it's, it's almost already there, right?
The structure, because like when
you're studying, you're, you're
like the instructor in training.
Like you literally are like labeled or
you show up as instructor, what have you.
Right?
And so, so I mean, the parts and the
performance is almost already there in
a, you know, even I remember during my
the, the women who ran the program, boo.
Martin, who is, was a big name within
the Path community as well as one of
the founders of equine facilitated
mental health, that like offshoot
little side, not side program, but
you know, like they have the, like
the equine assisted learning, mental
health, vaulting, you know, these
little subsets you can get certified in.
But Boo was one of the people who kind of
pioneered pushing that into the industry.
And that's why I chose to study with her.
But I remember her having this
thing of being like, you're
not just teaching, right?
There are people who are listening.
There are people who not
parents want to hear.
Like you're, when you're teaching,
it's not just to the student.
Like think of the volunteers,
think of the people watching, think
of who might be coming through.
And she's like, it,
everything is for everyone.
And, and I don't, and in that made
a lot of sense to me of being.
Maybe it did translate in my brain
like, oh, this is, this is, yeah.
The arena is, is a stage as well.
And that was, and sometimes the
Rupert Isaacson: arena is a stage as well.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's,
that's an interesting comment.
Betsy Kahl: Okay.
Yeah.
But I mean, it kind of, if you
think about it, because I think
Rupert Isaacson: you're dead, right?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
There's people who watch, like
even when I'm riding, you know, you
ride your own horse or working with
your own horse, there are always.
You know, everyone's got a side eye
on everybody sometimes at farms.
But yeah, yeah, what you bring, what you
put out there does ripple through and
and that was even you know, the large
program up in Texas that I worked at, it
was set up like open, very open space,
you know, as you kind of have the luxury
of that and the climate that is Texas.
But you know, so people walking
down aisles could have direct lines
of sight to what was happening.
There were chairs set up along the
perimeter, right, where people would
sit you know, literally on the nights
I would teach the veteran programs.
We had our little like Britney
Spears mic headsets and what
you said was getting amplified.
So why not make it something that could
be that a person, whether on the horse or
sitting in a chair or walking alongside
supporting the rider that they could all.
Get something from it.
Right.
And I think that's always been sort
of the, the things I, I think of is,
yeah, kind of what you're saying is
like, we create these containers, but
what can you experience in a container?
And I see my role as like,
how do I start to create those
transitional bridges, right?
So that always thinking like, how does
this riding or horsemanship groundwork
thing, how do you can, how can you
find that personal connection and how
does that then support maybe showing
up differently outside or believing
that there's more that you, there's
more you can safely show outside.
Of this space.
So yeah, I don't know.
Maybe that, yeah, I haven't
really thought of that.
So anyways, point of why, why
this could be helpful in training.
I think we've just said a few things
could be helpful, but what theater does
is it requires you, again, like I said,
to be present, to truly listen, to go
off of what you're getting, not just
to stay, you know, stuck in one way.
I mean, sometimes when I show
you, yes, you have your script,
right, but how you say it will be
changed based on what's happening.
And and also to kind of continually
be thinking, okay, yes, and
this yes and this, right?
That's like this typical
improv rule of like, yes.
And, but, but theater is one of
those places where the second
you start thinking, no, no,
no, everything falls apart.
Right.
You, you've just Right.
No, absolutely.
Rupert Isaacson: Improv show must go on.
It's so interesting.
I started working in the last
year with a group in London called
Chicken Shed who are a theater
that started in the chicken shed.
Mm-hmm.
And now are a big deal.
They put on shows that
are like Broadway quality.
You shouldn't be able to put those
shows on really with amateur junior
actors who are various degrees of
special needs, and yet they do.
And we might be putting something together
with the Horse Boy story with them.
I've observed how they work and it's so
interesting now they, they have this,
degree program through the university
system in the uk where I think they're the
only people that offer is it theater Arts
for special needs in the
special needs context
mm-hmm.
As a degree program.
And it's kind of genius because of
course the people who are teaching it are
people who've come through their programs
and their performances, who themselves
have various types of special needs.
Mm-hmm.
And one sees that it works
so well that when you go to see one of
those shows, it's not that you forget
that the people have special needs.
It's that the special needs that
the person has enhances the show.
I do feel that there is.
Naturally and for very good reasons,
a sort of desire within the equine
assisted thing, within any kind of
mental health thing to try to help
people to integrate with the mainstream.
And that is a worthy
cause and it is necessary.
And at the same time,
it's not the, it's not the mainstream.
Mm-hmm.
You know, one is outside of the
mainstream defacto in the work that we do.
And the difficulty now is it's, as it's
becoming more accepted and better funded,
is that one is expected to now kind of
present it in a mainstream sort of a way.
And it's nice that we are all coming from
the hippie margins into the mainstream.
You're a bit more mainstream than
I was 'cause you were with path,
but, you know, I, I could not have
been more marginal and now suddenly.
Governments and insurance companies and
so forth are paying for our services.
And now we have to more and more,
you know, for, tick those boxes
and present ourselves as if we were
mainstream and for, for all the
reasons that, you know, are inevitable
and good and at the same time that
the magic is not in the mainstream.
And I think to a large degree you
personify that, which is that, you know,
you've, you, you, you still perform,
I know you still perform of what you
perform, you know, just in performances
outside of anything to do with
equine, anything to do with, you know,
and I got it.
It's like, yes.
That is the ammunition that gives you
the ability to show somebody else how
to perform in a way that serves them and
does not drain them, so that they can
then use that performance to go into the
mainstream world, into the shark infested
waters of neurotypical humanity and swim.
Mm-hmm.
So you are a senior path instructor,
you're a horse boy instructor.
You're also a helped us to get what was
called the Athena Program going what's
now called the Takin Program going.
What in your perfect world would
you like to see from theater
arts performing Arts in this?
Equine assisted world as a
sort of a basic curriculum.
It would like, it wouldn't matter
whether you were going path horse boy, Al
whatever, there would just be a sort of a
psychic theater thing that ought to be,
that ought to run through the whole,
it should just be a theme that runs.
What, what would that look like and how
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Betsy Kahl: Oh, well, this
is, that's a big question.
What I liked with how Athena
evolved and now to Keen at least
my interaction with it, right?
What I liked was that.
It was a framework of the classical
master's system that, that you were
applying to improving quality of horses
to be able to do the therapeutic work.
Right?
And, and so.
I think it was kind of looking at, yeah,
what, what is the story of the system?
Right.
Okay.
Well, it was based in military training.
All right, well, where is that showing?
I think when you're kind of
spitballing these ideas, okay,
well it should, who, how does this
connect then with what's happening?
And so it was sort of like,
okay, military training.
Okay, veteran, like for me it's like
connected to veteran programming, right?
And then being like, yeah, there is a
bit of a gap because sometimes we're
limited on courses that are, can
successfully partner under saddle.
Right.
For a variety of reasons, especially
when you're dealing with adults and if
your center has predominantly, you know,
some tough scrappy ponies, but not, or
some pretty older arthritic courses.
Right.
And so, so yeah, I think it was
just kind of considering like.
How can, how can we take this
classic story much like a classic
Shakespearean text, right?
How do we cast it in this
new environment, right?
And, and who, who steps into these roles
and why can't, why can't we make the
veterans the stars of the, the show?
Right?
You know, why, why can't they and
what, you know, be, have their
co-star of the horse, right?
And have them create something,
a new story together, right?
A new story about movement.
About, about, yeah,
about possibility, right?
And and so I,
I think for any equine program, maybe
what theater offers is that idea of.
You don't have to
come up with something totally new.
It's like, how do we find a new
lens to look at what is known?
How do we get creative in how, what
we can add to the stories, right?
And, and that I think is what was
so cool to see evolve with the first
group of veterans who helped, you
know, so, so generously as well
as the horses we partner with.
They were just generous to go along with
this idea of, hey, like let's try this.
Let's try this thing, right?
And let me create the scene, right?
Here's the history, here's why it came on,
you know, and what they would bring to it.
The, some of the best practitioners of
the work ended up being, the veterans
who worked who flew helicopters, right?
'cause they understood this idea of
thinking and multi planes of movement.
Rupert Isaacson: That's so interesting.
And
Betsy Kahl: balance and when things,
you know, were on and off and how Yeah.
And, and I think, you know, what
they brought to it and how they
shared that knowledge with the group,
with the horse, with myself, right.
That took my understanding of, of the
work to a totally different level as well.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And and there, yeah.
And so
I think it's that curiosity, right.
Of, and creativity and embracing, being
willing to step slightly into the unknown.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And, and I don't know
if there's really a prescriptive.
Thing that it could look
like, because each program in
place has their own strengths.
And, and maybe that's where the challenge
is, you know, is we're all trying,
something that I'm always constantly like
checking in with myself is, you know,
when I have with your feeling for whatever
reason, not enoughness or depleted or just
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Stuck like in the bog
of sometimes looking out and being
like, oh, that thing, if I can do
that thing, I'm going to feel like if
I can be that person or that program
or that thing or that training.
Right?
And, and sometimes that is the thing to
do, but sometimes you also just thinking
of being like, okay, well what is it?
What am, what am I trying to resolve
for myself by seeking that out?
And do I already possess.
What is needed to do that?
Right.
Do I already have that?
And, and yeah.
Maybe that
I, I'm not sure where I'm
going with this, but I
Rupert Isaacson: well, I just
wrote down, I wrote something down.
Yeah.
As you were wrote a bunch of things down
actually, but you, a few minutes ago
you said create a new story together.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I wonder if that's
kind of the missing thing that
actually unites all of the supposedly
opposing, of course they're not.
But people might think that they
are equine assisted modalities
or disciplines or whatever.
Where what is, what is it
that we're all actually doing?
We are creating a new story together.
But it's not explicitly said.
So one can get
diverted or
Yeah, yeah.
Negatively diverted by details of saying,
well, I, you know, I do this modality,
I do horse boy, or I do Athena, which is
now taking, or I do path, or I do al or
I do, you know, life manship or whatever.
And actually what we're all
doing is the same thing.
What, what we're all doing is I
think you, you put your finger on it.
We are creating a new story together,
but there might be ways in which
to do that, that are quite a bit
specific for certain population types.
That mean that if people were to carry
over from one discipline to another,
one modality to another, one niche to
another, they could do it very happily if
they kept front and center in their mind.
We are creating a new story together,
whether it's for the horse or
whether it's for the human, you know?
And I know that that isn't sadly how
many people in our industry think.
But I have noticed that there's
a growing impatience with the
law, the lawmakers and the gatekeepers
of funding and so on, with our endless
factionalism where we bicker with each
other, you know, in the same way that
people in the horse industry do, because
we shouldn't really be doing that.
And I've, I've often wondered, you know,
what is the common denominator between
us all in the equine assisted world?
I mean, you could say it's
healing, but I love this idea.
You, you said it, I'm, you know,
I'm quoting you back to yourself.
Create a new story together.
Mm-hmm.
And if you're going to do that, then it
might be a good idea to have some tools
you know, whether it's theater arts,
whether it's old master's training,
whether it's neuro neuroscience, whether
it's, presumably it's all these things.
Mm-hmm.
And that we as the
professionals in this field,
surely could naturally
share our trade secrets, experiences, and.
Sure.
You know?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yet, yet we are
still hovering on the brink of it.
I was just I was just last month at a
gathering in Ireland hosted paid for by
Horse Sport Island, which is amazing.
'cause Horse Sport Ireland is affected
with the U-S-D-U-S-E-F or it's D fn.
It's the BHS.
And they have correctly measured
that the equine assisted field is
the only really growing field in
the equine world at the moment.
And they wanted us all from a
bunch of different disciplines
or modalities to present what we
did without selling our thing or
trashing the other person's thing.
And it's really interesting because we
had a bunch of people in the same room.
Who had to behave themselves, who normally
are really at loggerheads with each other.
Hmm.
And because they weren't allowed to
present that way, what came across
was quite a coherent, multifaceted
front of, we helped to create a
new story together for people.
It just might look a bit like this, or
it might look a bit like that depending
on what type of person you have.
Mm-hmm.
You've been in it for a long time.
You, you're an instructor
in our modalities.
You're an instructor in path.
How should it change?
Like what, what should happen
to, to, to bring us all
together for the greater good?
Betsy Kahl: Well,
I think.
I think man, it's being, being able to,
there's, there's, there's, it's
so hard to say in an abstract
way how it should change.
But I think in just st
being, I, organizationally, I'm not sure,
you know, I'm not really working at that
level perhaps someday, but individually
I can, I suppose I can speak on that
and perhaps there's something there.
I think individually it is
really that self, self-awareness, knowing.
Knowing what your strengths are.
Being okay with that, right?
Like being okay with not having
to be everything is something
that can be difficult, especially
in a work environment where
there is so much variety, right?
And so much different stuff and that it
is okay to much like with horses, right?
Like, you know, you have your
specialist in PO you have your
specialist in certain things.
They might not love your
specialist for jumping, right?
Like the horse said, stay up
and say, yeah, I will teach
anyone how to do this thing.
'cause I love it.
Right?
I think that it is okay for you
as an individual to know, right?
What, what feels maybe not forever,
but for now, where, where do I
feel like this is where my talents.
Thrive and shine, right?
Like that, I feel very secure
and safe in working this way.
Mm-hmm.
Not to say that I can't stretch, right?
It's not to say to play comfortable.
It's not to say to play small, but
it's to say like, this, this is I
within what I can do, this is within
what I can tolerate right now.
This is within this in a place
that I can work where I can, you
know, meet the needs of the people
who show up in that, you know?
And so, so I think sometimes that's
helpful is just to feel like you can
honestly assess that for yourself or get
help from someone to assess that for you
and understand identifying that what it
is, where you do your best work and, and
then yeah, where are those stretch places?
And where do you find the
support to grow in that area?
And I don't know if, you know,
that's something that space was
made for that inquiry for me.
It immediately, you know, sometimes
you look at the job descriptions
of a ride center and it's like
you will do everything right.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And for everyone.
And, and yeah, there is, you
know, resources are thin or, or
with horses that come in, right?
And like, that resources can
be tight and we want that.
We so desperately want that to be the
reality, but that might not be it.
And what do we destroy
as we try to force that?
Mm-hmm.
And so, yeah, I think as we allow,
again, individuals to, in every
aspect, from horses to the instructors,
to participants, just to be.
Able to show up as who they
are and build from there.
Right.
Not try to be something else.
Or pretend you like it.
Rupert Isaacson: It's tricky
in the horsey world, isn't it?
Because Yeah.
It comes as, you know, we've
inherited it from the military.
And military is about conform and
conform, although there's a threat of
violence and that this still underpins
the way in which we relate to each other
within the horse world, whether it's the
therapeutic world, sport world, or any
other world I feel that has to change.
And I do.
I, I'm optimistic.
I feel it is changing.
Mm-hmm.
But we can't really do the job.
Yeah.
Unless, yeah, we.
Actually appreciate each other, you know?
Betsy Kahl: Well, yeah.
And, and I think appreciate
what each person can offer.
And I think that's where, you
know, maybe this is where art is.
So in whatever way it shows up in your
life for me, theater, arts, equestrian
art circus art, you know, that, that
there is, you appreciate people 'cause
the thing doesn't belong to you.
Right?
Like, nobody owns the idea of horses.
Nobody owns the idea of therapy.
Like, that's so
Rupert Isaacson: true.
And,
Betsy Kahl: and so I think if you
just realize like you are, you have
this finite time to be part of this
story, to contribute what you can, and
maybe it'll change the world, maybe
it'll just impact someone's life.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: But like.
That's enough, right?
Isn't that enough?
And and so I think that's, you know, there
is no, art doesn't create a creativity,
and art is the place that I love to go
back to because there is, there's no place
for hierarchy or power or that, right.
And it,
Rupert Isaacson: except that the
art world is full of that, but Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Well, but to some
degree, but not at its core, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Yeah.
You
Betsy Kahl: know, not, yeah, sometimes
you're like in the sake of survival
or trying to push yourself or brand
or be, or like have whatever, right?
Mm-hmm.
But at its core, right, it's.
It's not you, you couldn't, if you
could sell, truly sell it like you
because you know, like there as
someone who works with that, like
there is a thing, like it's that,
it's that intangible quality of Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Of
Betsy Kahl: that in the moment connection
that feel that attunement, that,
Rupert Isaacson: that, that's, I
think we could put a name on it.
I, I think the name is love.
If you're trying to tell a story, let's
go outside of horses for a moment.
Mm-hmm.
That story is only going to
have any resonance if it somehow
is about love or, or, or good
stories are love stories and love
doesn't have to mean romantic love.
It's, you know, the infinite
expressions of love.
Mm-hmm.
Because what we know I
think is that life is love.
The tree loves the.
Mycelium network.
The mycelium network loves
the tree and the soil.
The soil loves the tree and the
mycelium network, the rain loves.
Or you know, I, I, I,
this is where I think
working with horses is
healing.
For those of us that do it is
nature always wants to bring
us back to a state of harmony.
There is the glass half empty
way of looking at the world.
Just say, no, nature is entropy.
And it's always in decay.
Yeah.
But then when it decay, it re constitutes
itself and creates Betsy, or, you
know, one of your horses or the person
that you're working with or that tree.
And then when that tree dies,
it becomes another thing.
But that isn't a bad thing.
That's a loving thing actually.
If when you die, you become
the soil and then you become.
The thing that, yeah.
So
I do feel it's about love and I do feel
that horses bring us back to that, even
when we're almost willfully forgetting it
and using the horse, projecting the horse
as a way to compete with each other or
mm-hmm.
Cause each other harm in some way.
You know, when we, when you and I
helped teach other pioneer Athena, you
know, we, we, we then got sued by some
people who said, no, we're Athena.
And actually we were both
Athena at the same time.
It just, like, literally within a
week of each other, we'd done the
trademarks, but one in North America,
one in Europe, and the European ones
approached us with such aggression.
It was so interesting to me.
I was like, well, why
didn't you just talk to us?
You know, of course we would
figure it out because we are
all here for the same reason.
We, we all are here to try
to lovingly help people.
Like my son who's sitting on the other
side of the court run courtyard right now.
'cause I killed him with
too many chores today.
He, you know very well, Rowan.
Mm-hmm.
I do feel that that has to change.
If we as a sort of equine assisted
world are going to evolve to the next
stage where, you know, like you as
a social worker, where we're being
prescribed in the same way that doctors
are now prescribing nature, thank
God, you know, to people and so on.
The stuff that actually works.
Hmm.
As long as we're so obviously factional
with each other, people notice and
then they don't take us seriously
because they go, you're just a bunch
of idiots arguing with each other.
A bunch of horsey snobs.
We've gotta break out of that.
We've gotta stop that.
And I think that you are one of
those people that I've observed who
just automatically treads that line.
When we with Horse Boy began,
we were astonished at the
aggression with which path.
And Nara at that time met us.
And I dunno if you remember this,
you know, back in 2018 I was giving
a talk at Denver University and I
talked about that and I said, you
know, I was saddened by it as an
autism dad 'cause it made me feel that.
Really, the people in the field just
weren't actually, were more concerned
with protecting their territory than
with helping people like myself.
And,
yeah.
What I didn't know is that the board
of Path was sitting in the audience
at that time, and we got that email
saying you know, well, should we talk?
And I thought, well, this is great.
Yes, absolutely.
Let's talk.
And then I asked you to be on that
call because you were, you know, a
path person and an US person too.
And on that call there was the, the
person who was in charge said, well, you
know, we've never bad mouthed, do you?
We've, and I remember saying, you know,
why are we even having this conversation?
Of course you have, you know, you
have, but the, the real reason
is why, like, what is your beef?
Truly, what is your beef?
We'd like to know, and I dunno
if you remember, they said,
well, we think you are dangerous.
And we said, well, why?
Why?
Why are we dangerous?
And they said, well,
'cause of the back riding.
'cause you ride with a kid
in front of you in horse boy.
And we said, yeah, but look, if it's
dangerous, I'm gonna touch wood here.
But why have we not had an
accident in back then it was
15 years, now it's 20 years.
Like why?
What is this based on?
Where is, where is this danger
that you're talking about?
And then they said, well, ah.
Because when we did it, we had accidents.
And then the penny dropped.
And I was like, I see.
Yes, of course.
Right?
Because you don't prepare the
horse's back, you don't prepare the
horse, you don't prepare the rider,
you don't prepare the whole thing.
So therefore, yes, if you did it,
it probably would be dangerous.
So you should stick to what you do.
We should do what we do and we
should compliment each other.
And Athena kind of grew
out of that really.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
I have, I, you know, I, I think that's,
I can't imagine how, how painful that
must have been to be very excited, you
know, when you were first realizing what
helped Rowan and wanting to offer that.
It's, it's probably very painful.
I don't know that exact, it was
Rupert Isaacson: surprising.
It was, but yeah.
I
Betsy Kahl: mean, surprising, but
yeah, like it's any type of, any type
of messaging that can be for me, you
know, and I've been in situations,
work situations, outside work words.
The idea when the, the.
The takeaway you get, like what, who
you are and what you do is wrong.
That, that can be really hard to hear.
And I don't always handle
that feedback well.
Right.
But I wish I could
Rupert Isaacson: say I did.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah, yeah.
I, I, it's something I'd like
to get better at, but I think,
and again, you know, ultimately
we can't, we can kind of try
to find where we connect.
And I think, I recall in the call, like
at least the one place we were able to
connect was this idea that we wanted to.
That a, a sound horse, a equine
welfare was one of the key things
that would promote safety for people
regardless of what way we're working.
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
Yes.
Equine welfare.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: A strong
back, a happy horse.
And so,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
Right.
And I think, you know, those are
the things, if we can all, at least.
Whatever, whatever ego stuff
we have to get through.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Right?
But to figure out where do we,
where is that connection, right?
Where is that thing that we both
value, that we both are united on?
And that is one thing that I will say has
started to come more and more up in, into
the industry, at least in my awareness,
even within you know, whatever pleasure
or competitive riding discipline, right?
Is this idea of, you know, something
that we haven't centered enough is the
welfare of our horses and, and how, right.
Rupert Isaacson: How do we start?
You're, you're dead, right?
'cause we're all, we're
all under scrutiny now.
You know, the whole
social licensing thing.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
It's not just
Rupert Isaacson: the sport people.
It's us too in the equine assisted field.
Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
And, and that scrutiny
can be challenging, right?
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes you are doing the best
you can with the resources you have,
and that is okay, you know, and not
everyone can have the textbook perfect
setup, but you, you do what you,
you can to the best of your ability.
And you know, I, it's something that's
interesting is, you know, organizationally
things that, or individ on an individual
level again, 'cause that's where
I work, is this idea of, you know,
can we ask ourselves a question of
like, what is it I want and what am I
willing to do to not get that right?
And because we're always
one of, to not get that.
Rupert Isaacson: That's, yeah.
Betsy Kahl: And, and it's when it,
you know, and that's where we start
to come up with those stories, right?
If I say, okay, well I want.
You know, I don't even know who my
horse to be able to do this thing.
Right.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
And what am I willing
to do to not get that?
And it's like you start to have to really
sit with those hard actions that you take
that oppose what you say it is you want,
and then you have to recognize, okay, well
I have to reevaluate one of these things.
And then the thought, the question
is too, with do you realize
what you're doing to not get it?
It's the idea.
In this line of inquiry it, it's called,
it's in this book called Immunity to
Change, which I thought was such a cool
title by and and it's like, what are
the commitments I've made that support
those things that, you know, those, what
am I committed to that is preventing
me from getting that thing that I want?
Rupert Isaacson: Right?
Yeah.
What hill am I dying on?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's when the
Rupert Isaacson: actual.
Job is on the other hill.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think maybe regardless of who
we are in this industry, it's like, okay,
well if we say we want welfare and we want
programming that really helps or supports
participants to get X, Y, Z, right?
You know, if we say this is what we want,
what, what are we doing that prevents it?
What are we willing to continue doing?
And then like why?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But that means that one has to admit
that one sometimes is preventing it.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Which is, that's a
Rupert Isaacson: hard
thing to admit, right?
Betsy Kahl: It, you're right.
Right.
But I think, at least for me, like,
I think when we start to lead,
maybe not being like, you have to
pull out your skeletons, right?
I, I was just like, here are mine.
Like this is, these are,
this is where I've failed.
This is how I, like, even, even in some of
my clinical work, you know, like the, the
idea of self-disclosure therapeutically
is, is a real touchy subject.
And, you know, I, I don't believe in
burdening your clients and stuff, but
I think that sometimes I like to some
degree being able to be, to not be
afraid to share, you know, where Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: that's an
interesting one, isn't it?
The point of vulnerability, because let's
say you're in, in the addiction world when
you're going through anything like that,
the only person who's
qualified to deal with you.
Is a therapist that is a
recovering addict mm-hmm.
Of the same thing that you've got
otherwise they have nothing, you know, to
show you other than a bunch of opinions.
And in the course of that, in your
average AA meeting everything is shared
and it's interesting and it works.
Mm-hmm.
And yet it's relegated from the
other therapeutic modalities.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That is interesting.
You know, I had a a that makes me think
of, I had a, a job interview, or I was,
well, it was not probably a candidate.
I think they were doing me a favor
of a person who suggested I interview
this job, but it was to work as a, a
therapist for kids who again, had family
members or people that really close
to whose lives were touched by cancer.
And I remember being in the interview and
one of the questions they asked me because
I had shared something about, you know, my
history as a child who had a family member
touched by cancer and ended up dying from
cancer when I was still you know, I guess
I was technically an adult in 19, but but
anyways, from 12 to 19 it was a pretty,
pretty significant presence in our lives.
And and I rather being like,
how is that going to impact?
And the, the, the idea is
like in a negative way.
Like how, how you be that's
gonna impact your work.
Right, but not seeing it and as a strength
per se, and I forget how the question was
phrased, but I remember just being like,
I, you know, I'm not sure, like I've,
to where I am currently have processed
the best I can and continue to work on it.
I was like, but what I do know is that
as a 12-year-old, I would've loved
to have met somebody who had, could
say, who would've been able to say
like, yeah, when I was your age, this
was going on, and it's really hard.
But like, and even to see that
they got through it, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And, and I think, yeah,
it's interesting why sometimes that,
and I get too, like it's a fine line
because there are people who do dump
and maybe do put too much out there.
And it's, it's again, we're not, it's
not a one-upmanship of stories, right?
It's not a suffering competition,
but it's that, it's that connection
and that that true empathy and like,
not not trying to eclipse someone's
experience with your own, but just being
like, I get that this is hard and this
is my experience of it, and, and for
whatever I've gained from it, if I have
something within that to offer you.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
Well, I mean, you've been, you've been
coy, but for the right reasons about
saying you know, what your involvement
was with having a family member that
was, you know, touched by cancer.
Is it all right for me to say, or
to ask you to say who that was?
Because I think knowing you as I do
that acts through your heart.
Spouted a wellspring of compassion
that has, you know, informed
everything that you've done.
So why beat about the bush?
Because there'll be people listening,
there'll be people watching who
are going through it, or their kids
are going through it, you know?
So is it all right to talk about that?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So tell us who it was
and, and, and, and how it affected you.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
It was well it was my father and and
he was, it's, I, I know I'm confused
as to, to the story of it all.
I, at least as I understood
it, when I was 12, he was
diagnosed with pancreatic cancer.
My mom will sometimes now say it
was just outside small intestine,
but anyways, intestinal cancer
and and he went through surgery.
So he was at that time, 42 and and he
had, you know, surgery and then was
in remission for about seven years.
And then when he was 49, it
came back and had metastasized.
And you know, I think less
than a year he passed away.
So it's been, it was 27 years
on the 17th of this December.
And so, so yeah, it's
been, been a long time.
So I was, yeah, from 12 to
19, I was 19 when he died.
And.
That definitely does in,
in great and not so great.
It just, it just, it does, it changes you.
The, you know, you have your life
narrative is very much like, pre-death
and after death to some degree.
Mm-hmm.
And and so yeah, just how you
make sense of the world, how
you move forward is impacted.
Rupert Isaacson: How do you make
sense of the world and move forward?
Betsy Kahl: I don't know.
It's a daily thing.
That's a great answer, right?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: It's a daily
Betsy Kahl: thing.
And I think, again, you
know, that can be terrifying.
But again, or you can realize
that like, yeah, every day
is you're creating the story.
Right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: That, that, if I don't
have such a grip, I mean, I was
about to say death grip, which
isn't that interesting, right?
It's not, is it a grip that results
after having death so close to you.
Right.
But like if you can just, yeah.
Just see how it shows up and, and
move with that through your day.
'Cause there are days that are easy.
There are days where it hits.
There are days where it,
you know, comes and gets.
Yeah.
But I think, I think, you know,
you come, you make, you're
consistently making meaning of it.
And, and I think in the past
I used to think, oh, you make,
you know, meaning and it's done.
Good job.
But but now I think it is a, every day I
make meaning of the loss and that is okay.
And that is what's re required,
at least of me, of how I'm, how
I'm, how I carry it with me.
And so, so yeah.
And that it's never done.
And I think when it's, I let go of
that idea of thinking that there'd
be a resolution or an end point or,
or something, you know, but but yeah,
and, and I think some of the meaning
is yeah, how do I, how do I remember?
And in that remembering re
embodying of who my dad was, right?
How do I remember that?
How do I carry that?
How do I keep that alive
with me in some way?
So, so yeah, I think that's,
that's, I think how I do it.
In some ways, well, and
some ways not so well.
Doesn't mean that I don't also
highly recommend sobbing in the
shower or or crumpling it or, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Betsy Kahl: Or yeah.
You know, like that's all
can be part of it too.
But yeah.
But I think too, well it
being able to do presumably
Rupert Isaacson: must be Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Sharing
that, that story, right.
Because yeah, we can make meaning
for ourselves, but then yeah, we
have to, we heal through connection
and community with others.
So how
Rupert Isaacson: have you, in the
course of the work that you've
done with the equine assisted work,
encountered a lot of people
who are dealing with grief?
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, gosh, there's so much grief.
Maybe not, not like, you know,
the dead dad's clo, which is
Rupert Isaacson: sometimes
Betsy Kahl: interesting.
You know, it was really, it's
interesting sometimes those periods
where you connect with someone
quickly and you later on realize, oh
wow, you, your father has died too.
You had no idea why, but there's
just some type of resonance.
Mm-hmm.
And but but yeah, I think there
is so much grief in involved with,
with horses that people bring.
And I like things that I've heard,
just, I think that there's a,
I, there's so many friends who have
horses or maybe got back to horses later
in life and they're still grieving for.
What they did, or, you know,
how they feel they've harmed or
harmed a horse in their past.
Right.
Or I think there's, there's
grief work there, right?
Um mm-hmm.
There's, there's grief.
If you've lost your heart horse, there's,
there's grief of those things you wanted
to accomplish, but maybe think you won't.
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
Like to know more?
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Betsy Kahl: There's, yeah, there's
so, so much, and I mean, maybe grief
is not the correct word for it.
I don't know, but, but I think
there is, it's, you know,
there's, there's a loss at least
Rupert Isaacson: death
of dreams, you know?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
You know, I feel like I've
had to do a lot of, of grief.
Work but not be eclipse with like Stewart.
You know, for Stewart is the horse.
I've had since he was like just turned
four and he's now probably like 25.
And he is an amazing horse and
I've learned, like, just did
everything for me in anything.
And and in 2022 from being a horse
who could do what you name it, he'd
do it like through like PF changes,
like whatever, and willing to give
it to anyone, trail ride, whatever.
He was great.
He got EPM and went from being like
the strongest horse I ever knew to
barely being able to stay upright.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I think there's grief for like,
you know, what I would consider, but
seeing how he's managed it and like now.
Again, that daily meaning making
of his loss and not being like,
well the story's over, right?
Because he's in his heart, he wants
to show up and do stuff, right?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Betsy Kahl: So it's been like,
okay, well where can we start?
And so he started with like, when
he, it was too much of a, I was
worried he'd fall over on me.
We did like from protective contact,
like trick training, touch this
target, touch here, go there, right?
That's where we could start.
And then from there it was, 'cause he
had the in hand work kind of foundation.
It was like, okay, well let's
start playing with some of this.
What can you offer today?
And then it was like yeah.
So never seeing, I'm getting off on a
tangent here, but I think, like, I feel
like for, with my relation with him,
it's been this constant like creating
and how much I sometimes want to just.
Stay stuck in the grief and be
like, okay, his story is over.
I'm gonna retire him.
He's done.
And how he refuses to let that
Rupert Isaacson: happen.
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: because he's, you know,
I had a friend who's like, you
know, there are horses who, Winnie
and she's like, he sings an aria.
He has the most operatic like.
Just across the pa, across the whole
property will just, the sighting
you roll in, just all ha like, cut,
like, I'm here, what are we doing?
And like, yeah.
And it has been so interesting 'cause
he's just keeps, has kept showing up.
And yesterday the first day that I
actually sat on him in like a, since he
was sick, and, and he, 'cause he had just
kept showing like he was strong enough, he
wanted to, and I was just like, all right.
Dusted off his old
saddle, threw it on him.
And, and it so didn't want to, 'cause
I remember like, you know, earlier
on in his recovery doing that and
literally being like, okay, let's see
if he can like, trot on the lunge.
And he fell over and
like being like, ah gosh.
Like he can't be wr, you know?
And, i'm not even saying like big
circles, I'm saying like, just
trot down the lungs, I fell over.
And like, so being, doing, being
willing to like, try that again.
Put a saddle on him, not out of fear of
like, ah, he is gonna hurt me, but just
like, can my heart take being broken?
If I open up to this possibility.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: And and he God, if a horse
could strut out of a paddock with a sound
like he was pumped and proud, and I know
I'm putting human emotions on an animal
anthropomorphizing, but like, but you
know, it was just such a strong thing.
And I just like got on and was just
like, okay, like let's just walk.
And he walked and like, I gather up
the reins and from a walk you went
into a counter and like just, and I was
like, let's just do two or three steps.
But like, you know, it was.
So the story continues, right?
And I find myself now battling
this idea of like, is that, can
I, do I want that to be the end?
Because that was so
great and I'm so scared.
If we try again, what if it falls apart?
Right?
And I think that's where loss for me
shows up is sometimes that fear of
Rupert Isaacson: opening
Betsy Kahl: up to life being beautiful,
like knowing that it's not permanent.
Like I hate that.
I hate it.
And, and there are some places where
uncomfortable, but there are some
places where oh, it's terrifying.
And and so, so I wonder if that,
you know, there's sometimes in
that yeah, pro like wanting,
not wanting to lose again.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure.
But we don't go for, you said just now.
And so the story continues.
Yeah.
And I was, I was gonna ask you
why is it that horses help humans
to deal with grief So, so well, because
we know that horses do, whether it's
getting us through breakups, whether
it's getting us through deaths, whether
it's getting us through family mess
ups, whether it's our own addictions
or whatever or fears, anxieties.
Mm-hmm.
Why do horses help us so much with this?
Betsy Kahl: Hmm.
I, I don't know.
I would, my guess is that again.
Being, being creatures who live in, in
the present moment they don't stay stuck
in the past where a lot of grief resides.
And, and so they, they, maybe that's it.
They've make us continue.
Nurses
Rupert Isaacson: just don't stay stuck.
Yeah, I, I think you got it there.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
And you know, I remember another good
steward story when I had him and was in my
twenties going through a, a breakup that
ended up being a breakup after a breakup.
Like, like, it was like
we just kept breaking up.
And it took me a while to learn.
But but I remember I was like, yeah,
we had had, we had a fight, it was
like 2:00 AM and I was living at the
barn in the apartment by the barn.
And so Stewart was like, right.
You know, just, just
walk to his, his stable.
And so I like, was like, I'm so
sad, I'm gonna go see my horse.
'cause like, you know, I'm like, we're
gonna have a, a, my friend flick a
national, you name it, and you roll all
the great horse movies into one, I'm
gonna have like, yeah, that guy sucks.
Like this, this horse, it, you're
Rupert Isaacson: gonna
bring my drama to my horse.
Betsy Kahl: Right, right.
So, so yeah, I go.
I walk in and he's like,
munching some hay this stall.
And he's like, oh, hey.
Like,
Rupert Isaacson: what up dude?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
And he's just like, Hey, hold.
So I like walk in the stall and he like
walks over and I'm like, here it comes.
Like, I'm just gonna hug.
And, and he goes over and he's sort
of like, okay, what's going on?
And I'm sure he is just
like, okay, she's sad.
I'm like, let's do it.
And he is like, you know, I've had him.
And then I was just like,
and now you hold me.
And that horse we met like in the
middle of his stall and he put
his head down, like into my chest.
And I'm thinking here, yep.
He loves me.
And he just headbutted me.
And like,
and I had been like, water working and
Rupert Isaacson: I can't
believe you did that to
Betsy Kahl: me.
He shoved me back and I like
pump into the back of the stall.
And I just stood there, somewhat stunned.
And he looked at me and I looked at
him and he just like blew out, turned
and went back to eating his hay.
And I was just like, and
then I, it became very clear.
It's like, oh, this is not.
He is not interested.
And like, you know what,
this is all pretty,
this whole mellow drama.
I was trying to like, of it,
like, I, I should just go
my, yeah.
You know?
And, and maybe there would've
been a worse, like, yeah.
Like probably the mayor I had in, in
high school would've just like mothered
me, you know, like would've let me up.
But like, that's not who Stewart
is and that's Yeah, I know Stuart.
Yes.
Not him.
And and and I think, yeah, and I think,
you know, having a horse like Stewart in
my life, especially through a period of
my life, I went through so many changes
of a horse who was just like, okay,
like we're going like, let's not, yeah.
Mm-hmm.
You can be whatever you wanna
be, but let's keep moving.
And, let's
Rupert Isaacson: keep moving.
No, I agree.
It's, it's like I, I think that one
of the, so I was thinking dogs, like
dogs do get involved in human dramas.
Dogs die of broken hearts.
Dogs are quite similar to us in many ways.
And so sometimes can get stuck.
Like we can get stuck.
Horses don't, and they carry us.
Right.
Even if we're not riding them,
they still carry us metaphorically.
Betsy Kahl: Well, and they, they do
Rupert Isaacson: another way of being.
Right.
Betsy Kahl: Right.
And I mean, even, and they carry
us, they move us right physically.
Like if we are on moving our bodies,
which is again, like at the core of
it, why adaptive riding started Right.
Is to get a movement we wouldn't
otherwise be able to give ourselves.
And and so, so yeah.
I mean, and there is.
You don't need me to tell you the,
the healing that can come, the
growth that can come through movement
and the antithesis of stagnation.
And so maybe that is where
horses help us, right?
Is that Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I,
I love that actually.
Yeah.
Horses move your body.
They do.
They do.
Whether you are on them or
not, they move your body.
You, you could say yes,
you have to walk your dog.
And it's not that dogs don't encourage
movement, but, and we all own
dogs and, you know, love our dogs.
So we're not disrespecting the dog.
But there is, I think, this
miracle that we are their predator.
They are always skeptical of us.
Like, are you, are you gonna eat me?
And the answer is.
Maybe if I was hungry enough and
I needed to feed my children,
I wouldn't be happy about it.
But, you know, so when you have that kind
of reality, I think, in a relationship,
and then as you say, they move us,
carry us, move us, help us transition,
the story goes to the next chapter.
Mm-hmm.
And, you know, you've, you've touched on
storytelling so much in this conversation,
whether through theater, arts or
you know, in, in so many ways.
In
your perfect world, where is the
whole equine assisted field going?
What do you want to see
in the next 10 years?
Hmm.
Betsy Kahl: I.
I would love to see
more belonging.
And, and by that I mean more, more
Rupert Isaacson: what?
Sorry?
Betsy Kahl: Belonging.
Rupert Isaacson: Belonging.
Betsy Kahl: Sense of belonging.
Okay.
And by that I mean that
there are many individuals, many, I,
I can think, it's not hard for me to
think of something like, name fix you
think would make a great instructor.
Mm-hmm.
There are often people that, I
mean, and maybe some are not in the
time of life to pursue it, but some
people like they're big obstacles.
They don't believe that they can do it.
And I.
Strongly disagree and
we'll, we'll express that.
But yeah, that idea of like, okay, 'cause
there are so many people that could
provide, so like that we need more, right?
Like, like there are wait
lists and there are people who
could, could help with that.
And so I think if we,
and by would
Rupert Isaacson: everybody
involved in horses?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Yeah.
And
Rupert Isaacson: offer
something on the therapeutic.
Mm.
Betsy Kahl: And again, figuring out
like, well, what it, what is it?
Is it doing mounted work?
Is it the groundwork?
Is it great?
Yeah, sure.
And I think that's what's great was
things are spreading out as far as what
ways you could pursue certifications
to be a practitioner, right?
There's something now at a level for I
think an entry point for so many people.
Now.
What's preventing them from going there?
I, I'm not sure.
But I think that as professionals,
like the more we Yeah.
Do like, encourage people to pursue
this get curious about, yeah.
Is the, is this the stretch
place for them to step up here?
So I'd like to see more belonging.
I'd like to see, and I think
that comes too from like places
of different sizes, right?
Like some people are comfortable
working in big programs.
Some prefer backyards,
horses as well, right?
So like just having more diversity
within how things are delivered.
And, and I think for me, what I
would love to get involved with
is that idea of not siloing.
Recreation riding versus
adaptive versus lesson programs.
Like, I so value what I was able to
experience growing up in a barn that,
and it is hard, and I'm not gonna deny,
but like valley riding doesn't, man,
they have people who pay their board, who
understand lessons run at these times and
you ride with them and no one gets to own
the arena and also understand that, yeah,
we help out with the therapeutic program,
but like, I remember growing up like, how
rare is it to be like trotting around on
your, your horse Sputnik and to look and
see someone doing like Tempe changes and
all kinds of cool stuff and like to, and
to be able to have conversations with it.
Like, you know, it's just, I
think that again, as these.
Worlds that all share common mission?
Yeah.
Just trying to, to do the, be
do right by our horses and,
Rupert Isaacson: um mm-hmm.
Betsy Kahl: Be
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
I think I, I agree.
Offer those
Betsy Kahl: connections.
Like Yeah.
I, I would just, I love the idea of
things not being, because then too, that's
how a kid like me could grow up to be
like, oh, well, I can be a horse owner,
but I can also teach adaptive riding.
I can also teach, like, none
of this is mutually exclusive.
And and that,
Rupert Isaacson: that they're not really
Betsy Kahl: that different
when it comes down to it.
Like, I mean, they are,
there's technical skills.
Right.
But no, I,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I,
I, I think I agree with you.
I think, I think that if, if,
if, let's say you're at Pony Club
Yeah.
Or
came up, I came up through Pony Club.
Mm-hmm.
And if in pony club it was,
I dunno, mandatory to do some sort of
service and that you could choose, there
could be just a whole variety, you know?
Well, like when I was growing
up, I, I, I loved hunting.
Mm-hmm.
And one of the great
fulfillments of my life in the last
few years is that I've hooked up
with this great hunt in Germany
called the VA veil Bloodhounds.
You know, they're not hunting animals.
We hunt each other.
But it looks like fox hunting.
And we have every year an inclusive hunt.
You know, you could make so many boar
act like jokes of No, we are only
hunting the autistic people so much here.
But.
What we are doing of course, is we are
creating a day where all the people
who are in the Horse Boy program
can have a day riding to Hounds.
And we do it on our friend Henrik and
Getty's property, you know, who run
that great horse boy program there.
Because we can choreograph
it and control it and so on.
But the amount of horse preparation that
goes into it is insane as you can imagine.
But yet, you know, we have, say
for example, Julian Beckoff, who
is a young rider with spina bifida
and hydrocephalus coming back and
saying, I rode to hands, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And for me to be able to sort
of open up that world with the
assisted equine assisted world
mm-hmm.
Has a sort of particular resonance
for my soul, so I get healed as well.
Mm-hmm.
And this, as you say, to silo it off,
saying, well, if, if you're a fox hunter
or if you're an inventor, or if you're a
show jumper, you're a dressage writer or
you're a therapeutic person, or you're
this, you are western pleasure, your,
you know, and that these things exist
outside of human mental health, I think
weirdly, that actually harms the horse.
I think what horses want to do is
interact with us in this kind of
cross species, cross mammalian way,
tribal horse culture that, you know,
humans and horses evolved four to
6,000 years ago out there on the step.
And that's how kind of how horses
want to engage and that they,
you, you talked about belonging.
What is belonging?
Belonging is tribe clan.
And we are all members of a
global horse tribe, right?
Which includes our people who
perhaps are, are more vulnerable.
If we, I think one of the things I,
I I, I love about observing horses
that go into therapy programs is that
they tend to do the job with enthusiasm.
They tend to dive into the job.
And I've never yet met a horse who
said, oh, I don't do that because I'm
actually, you know, a Grand Prix horse.
No horse ever said that, ever.
That's a monkey idea, you know?
The horse says, I'm here, I'm available.
You show me what it is you want from me.
And if it is reasonable and doesn't
make me feel horrible, I'll probably
participate, you know, in a, in a,
in the, just the same way you would.
Mm-hmm.
Coming down to love.
At the end of the day,
horses operate through love.
Horses operate through emotion.
Horses operate through that mutual support
system that they have, even when they're
being rude to each other that we do too.
So in your perfect world,
would it be like that?
Would it be that say at pony club level
or a four H or you know, whatever is
the entry point for the kid that this
is made front and center, rather than
saying, well, the real stuff is over here.
If you want to go play
with the retards as well.
Okay, you can do that.
But you know, rather, that I think
is the message we all got growing up.
But what if it was different?
What if it was much more front and
center for the young riders coming
in and validated in, in a weird way?
Maybe you earned your points,
you know, towards whatever system
you are working towards with a
certain amount of service hours.
You know, it's interesting that
that's not built in, isn't it?
You know, that it's,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
I'm not aware if it is or if it isn't.
But I, yeah, certainly.
And it's, it's definitely great to have,
you know, more opportunities and, whew.
I, you know, I, my, my life has
not been a very linear thing.
And so I, I don't know.
I wish there was something as a
very simple direct line to making
things happen, but I think the
more that, yeah, again, you open,
you just have those possibilities
strewn around, like, does this
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
Betsy Kahl: And people that, that instead
of when someone comes to you and is like,
I'm, I'm curious about this being that,
that, that welcoming place as opposed
to, well, you have to, you know, and
it jump through, prove yourself first.
In order to be able to, to do this, you
Rupert Isaacson: must suffer first.
Yes.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I mean, yeah, you have
to have some skills and some
training, but like, but yeah.
How do you make that again,
not, not so, so, yeah.
Not making people feel like
they're, they're getting
like, you know, sifted out.
Right,
Rupert Isaacson: exactly.
Betsy Kahl: And and so, so
yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's
complicated to say the least.
I think it was simple.
We'd have cracked the code, but maybe
it is also simple and it's just sort of,
yeah, just being, being willing to adapt
and modify and improvise and change.
You know, you have structures that
are helpful to have, but within
that there's a lot of space to
be creative and and so, right,
Rupert Isaacson: and I think your,
your point earlier that if, if
what we're primarily concerned
with is the horse's wellbeing
mm-hmm.
Not in a kind of, we hate humans, we love
horses, you know, sort off you humans, but
more from the point of view of if we're
expecting or we would like this horse to.
Give wellbeing to a human.
Mm-hmm.
It's probably a good idea if
that horse has wellbeing to give.
And I think if, if, yeah, if our
focus is there, then the rest follows.
You know, as, you know, with our, with
say for example, movement method or
horse boy method, it's Follow the Child.
Mm-hmm.
And if one does that, it seems that
everything else falls into place.
But when one doesn't do that, things
tend to get kind of complicated.
Mm-hmm.
I would posit it's a bit the
same with Follow the Horse.
Yeah.
Where is this horse's happiness?
Where is this horse's wellbeing?
What does this horse really love to do?
How do we make this horse feel as
good in their body as we possibly can?
Because that's gonna
translate to the mind.
And then if we do that,
probably whoever comes into contact
with that horse is going to benefit.
Right.
Betsy Kahl: One would hope.
Right?
One would hope.
But yeah.
Yeah, I, I think that sounds, sounds good.
So, so, yeah, I'm not sure what
that perfect world looked like.
Well,
Rupert Isaacson: I, I, I can, I
can help people with that because
I know this person called Betsy
Carl, who lives in Bend, Oregon.
And I know that if people go to Betsy,
Carl 'cause I've watched her at work
over quite a few years she will help
them to understand how to put that
equine wellbeing into their horses,
which will then help them through
a variety of methodologies, give
that wellbeing to monkeys, whether
juvenile monkeys or adult monkeys.
Mm-hmm.
So I think people should actually
reach out to you, Betsy, as a mentor.
Whether it's on the equine, ie
dressy end, or on the therapeutic
end or, or points in between.
Is it all right if people contact you?
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah, always.
I always tell people contact me,
and then I just sit and wait.
Like
Rupert Isaacson: how
would they contact you?
Betsy Kahl: Let's see.
I have they can contact me at
betsy@wonderhorseranch.org.
That's the nonprofit that I had
in Texas, but haven't figured
out how to do it here yet.
But that email still works and that's
probably the easiest one to spell.
I also have that
Rupert Isaacson: at
Wonder Horse Ranch org.
Yeah.
Org.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so listen, viewers
and listeners, if you want to learn
Horse by Method, movement Method, takin.
As we call it now, which is all the
groundwork as it's as its own therapy
and our LIOs system of dressage, and also
just the other stuff that Betsy can bring
to the table all by herself without any
involvement in me of which there's plenty.
I do thoroughly recommend that
you reach out to her as a mentor.
She's been in this for many years.
She has produced amazing
horses that I've seen.
She's brought healing to the lives of
so many people, including my own son.
I can't recommend her highly enough.
You have a mentor up there in that box
above me, although probably in YouTube
she's gonna be here or here or here.
But I'm, I'm sort of gonna hedge my
bets by pointing in all four directions.
Contact this person because she
can do the job and can show you how
to do the job in so many modalities.
Also within the path.
System and, and others.
So it's Betsy Carl, is it
Betsy Carl at Wonder Horse org?
Betsy Kahl: No, it's just B-E-T-S-Y.
At,
Rupert Isaacson: at, it's just Betsy.
At, okay.
Betsy.
Betsy Kahl: Betsy
Rupert Isaacson: at Wonder Horse.
Betsy Kahl: Yep.
Rupert Isaacson: ranch.org.
Betsy Kahl: Dot org.
Rupert Isaacson:
betsy@wonderhorseranch.org,
reach out to her let her mentor you.
She's a good mentor.
Betsy Kahl: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, sure.
Please do.
Yeah, I, I mean, if I can help, I will.
Right?
Yeah.
I, I don't,
I am always.
Curious about Yeah.
What people are seeking.
And again, if what I've experienced
in my life can be supportive
of any way, I'll share that.
Happily.
But I, I will say, even if it's not
with me that I do believe that learning
the classical groundwork system is life
changing for both you and your equines.
And and always you will
always have some way to Yeah.
Connect and create something
magical with them no matter the
weather, no matter their ability.
Right.
It's just something that
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely no matter
whether you have an arena or not.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
Betsy Kahl: And, and no matter what,
even if something is going poorly, it
is just, it's just the, the foundation
you can return to, to, to in hand
Rupert Isaacson: work.
Absolutely.
It is the key.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And Betsy
can teach you, so go to her.
Betsy Kahl: Well, my horses can teach you.
I was lucky enough to have some
great horses that taught me and and
they are happy to share as well.
So, yeah.
Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: Well,
it's been a pleasure.
Betsy Kahl: Yes, it has.
Rupert Isaacson: I look, I look
forward to the next collaboration.
Betsy Kahl: Yeah, yeah.
We'll see what happens.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
We'll the
Betsy Kahl: story continues, right?
Rupert Isaacson: It does indeed.
Alright, my friend, I think we're
gonna have you on again in a few
months and go into some more depth.
I'd like to, I'd like to actually go
into more into the theater arts side.
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
We barely touched on it this time,
so maybe we'll do a, a follow up.
Sure.
You up for that?
Yeah,
Betsy Kahl: yeah.
Always.
Yeah, reach out, let me know.
Rupert Isaacson: All right, good.
And then hopefully I'll
be seeing you soon.
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