The Meat Mafia Podcast

Today we speak with Anjan Kata, founder and chief engineer of Daylight Computers - a world first screen technology company that has developed it's screens to not emit blue light wavelengths, as well as minimises EMF and flicker. Founded in 2019, Daylight has recently launched it's latest tablet. Widely regarded as a groundbreaking product, we were lucky enough to discuss with Anjan some of the potential amazing implications this product has in reshaping our relationship to technology. 

Key topics discussed:

- Daylight's potential to revolutionize how people interact with screens, prioritizing health and intentionality
- The challenges Daylight faces in convincing people to adopt a device that intentionally does less
- The importance of finding aligned, long-term investors who share Daylight's vision and values
- The value of authenticity in scaling a mission-driven company, even if it means slower growth
- Entrepreneurship as a transformative journey of personal growth, if one perseveres through challenges

Timestamps:

(00:00) Overcoming Fear and Leadership Growth
(11:43) The Impact of Selfless Goals
(20:12) Challenges of Blue Light Technology
(27:48) Sustainable Company for the Future
(35:31) Entrepreneurship Growth and Support


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Creators & Guests

Host
Brett Ender 🥩⚡️
The food system is corrupt and trying to poison us... I will teach you how to fight back. Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod 🥩
Host
Harry Gray 🥩⚡️
Leading the Red Meat Renaissance 🥩 ⚡️| Co-Host of @themeatmafiapod

What is The Meat Mafia Podcast?

The Meat Mafia Podcast is hosted by @MeatMafiaBrett and @MeatMafiaHarry with the mission of addressing fundamental problems in our food and healthcare system. Our concerns with our healthcare system can be drawn back to issues in our food system as far back as soil health. Our principles are simple: eat real foods, buy locally, and cook your own meals.

When you listen to our podcast, you will hear stories and conversations from people working on the fringes of the food and healthcare system to address the major crises overshadowing modern society: how do we become healthy again?

themeatmafiapodcast.substack.com

Part 2
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[00:00:00] I love the, um, the point that you'd made about maybe fear around people laughing at you. Oh, yeah. Because it's such a It's such a relatable feeling, especially in the beginning of the creative process, and I When you have a show called The Meat Moff.

Literally called The Meat Moff. Oh, yeah. Quitting a real estate private equity job and a consulting job and literally start a podcast about meat. Oh, wow. I didn't know that about you guys. And dude, I remember Damn. Dude, crazy. Damn. So, like, you think about the world that we both played in and the people that we knew, like Going to Babson College up in Boston and all these people working standard jobs And those were a lot of the friends that we both carried right and I remember thinking I I so the first piece of content I ever wrote was just a blog post that kind of just talked about my healing journey Mmm, oh well, and dude the two years prior to me releasing it I literally wrote it four times and put so much pressure on myself and was so worried about what other people think I literally Ripped up the paper and just threw it in the trash can So like, even two years prior, there was nothing, I knew everything [00:01:00] that I needed to know.

I could have released the piece of content then, but I was so worried about what other people thought. And then I remember having this almost like epiphany in 2022 where I thought, I went through the list of all the people that I thought either had laughed at me, judged me, etc. And I said to myself, I'm like, do you actually like, respect any of those people?

Like, would you trade places with any of those people? And I was like, literally not one of them. So I was like, why the fuck do you care what they think? And me just getting over that hump. And Harry getting over that hump. This, this thing, this crazy thing that we've built out the last two years. This beautiful thing that you've built out, you know, the last six plus years.

It literally wouldn't exist if you gave in to those voices. And anyone that's gonna laugh at you is literally coming from a place of Pure insecurity that they have to fill that void by laughing at you because you pursuing your mission makes them feel even shittier about themselves Because they know that they're living in their own lie That's powerful stuff, man Yeah, I for much of my life would even [00:02:00] be scared to when people were like, what's a movie you liked?

I would be literally scared to give an answer because if they laughed like you like Transformers like I was just fucking kill me Yeah, I'd feel like such a piece of shit And, you know, I like, I like weird shit. I like stupid shit. And like, yeah, I think even now, I'm still afraid of people laughing at me.

I feel like there's like a part of me that's just like, it's so afraid of being humiliated. And so, I don't know, people see me on stage and they're like, Wow, you're confident you're real in this. There definitely is a voice somewhere in there that's still afraid to be laughed at. And it's interesting. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me.

I don't mind if they tell me I'm a fucking idiot. But there's something about being laughed at that just feels so emasculating or so humiliating. Have you seen certain parts of your personality come to life as you've Reorchestrated the internal parts of yourself. Can you ask that in a different way?

Yeah, just I'm curious like I feel like personally I've seen You know leadership come through in a [00:03:00] way that like I hadn't seen in a long time since playing like high school sports Like I yeah had a career six years before started the meat mafia And felt like that was like incredibly suppressed in that role.

Is that private equity? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was doing investment management Um in the real estate world and just like kind of just in excel spreadsheets all day. So no leadership ability Being able to be put on display there other than like, you know in small ways But i'm wondering for you, you know as you've kind of gone through this process.

Have you seen Old parts of yourself or just like parts of yourself that you realize like oh wow This is actually a gift that I need to you know, continue to let out into the world come to surface Totally 100 like um, I think I think for better or worse the entrepreneurship done Right is like a spiritual journey that you have to fucking face your demons And the company you build and the people you hire They're all representations of yourself.

Like, I see a version of myself in that person. I see a version of that. And so, just to give one example [00:04:00] that's common to me, is, uh, I think I've been a horrible leader of the company for, for most of its existence. Like, really bad. And I didn't appreciate how much of that was, like, leadership is different than management, and leadership is different than what you see in the movies.

And like, what leadership is at its core is you have integrity inside yourself. You are whole inside yourself, you have a backbone, you trust yourself, i. e. you're solid, so other people can actually follow or congregate around you. I thought it was like, managing other people, doing a certain thing, being a certain way.

Even if inside I was broken, I was not whole, I didn't trust myself, I was scared. And so one of like, the little things I noticed was, I really struggled to lead people, cause I had anger problems. And I was so scared of my own anger, I would cuck myself. I would just be a limp [00:05:00] dick, you know, and not hold people accountable.

I wouldn't even, like, if they didn't do something, I would just, like, not do anything about it. I wouldn't even, like, tell them, like, hey, that's not cool, man, or hey, what's going on? Because I was so afraid if I even, like, went a little bit into it, the fucking anger would come. And so I was, like, completely cut off.

You can't run a company without accountability, right? Like, everything falls apart. People don't feel safe. Because it's, like, no accountability is, like, no walls. And then you're, like, what's real? What's real? Right? Accountability helps you remember what's real. And so a big part of me learning that actually I am a leader, and I do have that in me, and I'm good at it, and it's maybe what I'm made for, I had to like come in touch with my anger.

Like I had to realize, like, I keep losing all my power in leadership because I'm so afraid of getting angry. And so there was a couple years there where I started to test it. And I'd fuckin blow the fuck up. I'd get so fuckin angry. I had, like, at least two people quit the team. Cause, like, I [00:06:00] got so angry at them, they were, like, terrified of me.

They literally were like, I do not feel safe being around you. And, um, I felt fuckin horrible about it, right? Cause I've been afraid of this for my entire life. And to actually see what I was afraid of come true is Heartbreaking. So hard. But now on the other side of it, like, I can be in my power and I don't necessarily have anger problems.

I do have anger because I'm an intense person. It's the same sensitivity. I feel everything strongly, but it no longer is angry at somebody, it's just anger, which is power, right? It's energy funneled in a particular way. And so, um, I think I've gotten a lot better as a leader as I've learned to step into anger.

And I realized most of my anger actually came down to two things. A sense of helplessness or a sense of betrayal. Like if somebody didn't do something, the anger was a non vulnerable way of being help like, that helpless energy. Because that helpless energy is vulnerable. It's like, fuck, [00:07:00] man. Right, and anger is a non vulnerable way of it.

Like an example would be, I told somebody something, they said they would do it, I spent 20 minutes, I gave them the steps, we talked through it, they said, Aye, aye, boss. And a week later, I'm like, did you do it? And they're like, no. I would fucking lose my mind, I'd get so angry. But I realized really what it was, is I felt a sense of helplessness, because I'm like, dude, I don't know what to do.

I sat down with you, I fucking made the steps, I asked you the questions, I asked you to repeat what I said, I, like, tested your knowledge, I did everything I can do it, and if everything I did is still not good enough, like, holy fuck I'm scared, cause I don't know what the fuck to do then. But that's, like, to be fearful, that's I don't want to be fearful, so I'm going to be angry.

Because that same energy, but rather than being internal, it's external. And, uh, there's a book that's like, if you ever see an angry man, give him a hug. He's hurting inside. Like, I think a lot of the times, we struggle as men to be vulnerable, but at the same time, we're like villainized [00:08:00] for violence, right?

And so we're cucked in both ways. Like, you can't be angry, but you also can't be vulnerable. And so then we just implode inside, right? We become dissociated. Like, it's just an epidemic of like, closed off, dissociated men. And we lose our power when that happens. That's the key thing, is you lose your power.

And um, I feel the betrayal part also was like, I'm throwing my heart and soul, I'm literally sacrificing every aspect of my life for this. You told me that you're just as passionate. I understand you'll never be the same as me, but you told me you're really passionate. And your actions are not doing it. I feel so betrayed.

I'm taking a huge risk on you. You know, I would hire people with no experience. I'm Because they would, they would be so passionate. And I believed them when they said like, this is my life's work, I'm gonna like, do everything for this. And I could quote unquote like, take less risk by hiring somebody with more experience, but I'm like, man I wanna like, take a bet on people who are really And their actions did not represent [00:09:00] what they said.

And I took that as like, a huge betrayal. Because I'm like, dude, your, this company's gonna die, because I'm going off of your word, and your word doesn't mean shit. Right? Like, we may die, because instead of having an experienced person in this role, we have you. And you said you would learn all this stuff, you'd go out and find mentors and you'd work your ass off and you're doing none of those things.

Now I have a little bit more perspective. It was not that they were betraying me as they didn't have the skill to actually follow through with their intent. Right? It's like good intentions, but they didn't just have the skill. That's what I'm starting to realize. Like you need a certain personality and skill to be able to do it.

But I felt betrayed. I would just get so angry, so, because betrayal to me, like, dude, I took one for you. Like, where's the reciprocity? Right? You feel alone. You feel abandoned. You feel abandoned. And so, um, Yeah. As I've stepped into anger and anger work and I worked with a therapist and all sorts of stuff.

And, um, I feel like I've started to like develop my agency as a leader. I'm still a horrible manager, not improved in there, but I realized leadership [00:10:00] and manage managing are actually different capacities and skills. And so that started to feel good because I'm like, Ooh, I really can start to bring the best out of the people around me and I don't need to be soft and I don't need to be mean.

I can actually just be honest and whole. And I can own my own shit, right? So I can feel betrayed now, process it, soothe myself, and then show up without that, you know, thing inside. I can feel that sense of helplessness, and I can call my girlfriend and rant on the phone for ten minutes and then show up with a little more.

And so I'm surprised by how much of entrepreneurship is these little tricks and tactics. Yes. To manage yourself. Yeah. And the beautiful thing is that, um, you know, management can be solved for and it could be learned or it could be delegated. But the leadership piece, it's like, you just need to have it.

And I love that story because I would think too, there's this, this aspect of, well, I kind of feel broken. So how can I show up and be a leader for these people, right? Where it's like, [00:11:00] actually, like, take Tristan, your health lead, for example. It's like, dude, you could give him, like, a great, positive piece of feedback that really helps him.

That makes him way more bought into the company. But then there's this, almost weirdly selfish benefit where you feel really good because you know you helped him out and he got really energized and then that adds energy to you which makes you feel more full and makes you an even better leader, too.

It's like that's another little trick where like if I ever feel like shit if I ever have a day I'm like I need to just Try and just do something like selfless for someone else like it could be like the smallest thing like Buy someone a cup of coffee or like text my mom or say something nice to like someone that we work with And it's it's selfless and then in a weird way It's kind of selfish because I know that if I do this, I'm gonna feel really good So I think the world changes when people do selfless things for selfish reasons And they do selfish things for selfless reasons.

Like, what I mean by that is like, if you're always taking care of other people, but you secretly resent them, that's going to show up in all your stuff. [00:12:00] So if you do the selfish thing of taking care of yourself, that might be the most selfless thing you can do because then you can show up way more cleanly in the way you help people.

Or what you're saying, which is like, you did something selfless because it selfishly helped you show up in a certain way. And I just think this like, this, this, this flip of like, be more selfless, So you can like for yourself like in a selfish way and be more selfish in a selfless way I think that could change the world.

Hmm. Yeah, I'd love to I'd love to pivot a little bit and talk about The first moment that you actually held your product. Oh boy, my baby Fucking baby. Yes, we can talk about founders stuff all day Cuz yeah, it's just like I think it's just part of being in the trenches and being able to relate to like yeah People don't get the emotional experience.

It is man. Totally like I don't trust You I don't trust an entrepreneur who isn't a bit heartbroken when I meet them because I'm like, yeah, you're too early in the process Yeah, like yeah, totally. We've got some good heartbreak. Yeah [00:13:00] But yeah, tell me about that experience of actually holding the first daylight tablet, right?

No one's actually asked me this question So that's super interesting. I was the last person on my team to hold it Or at least turn it on, um, there was something about, I'm a sentimental guy. And so I waited until April 1st of, uh, 2023. Cause that's the, even though I started at mid 2018, we like formally, officially like launched, like started the company.

On April 1st, 2019. And so April Fool's is the company anniversary. There's just something funny about that. Ironically. It turns out Apple is one of the few other companies on Earth that also start on April Fool's. And if you hear our vision, that's just kind of an interesting That's not a coincidence.

Right? Um, so I wanted to turn it on for the first time on April 1st. We got it like March 25th, so everybody like tried it for a week, and they were all like pissed at me They're like our [00:14:00] fucking CEO doesn't even like our own product that he's like sacrificed his entire life for I'm like you guys just don't get how sappy I am man like chill out right and so I drove down to Stanford Which is where I went to college, and then um I went to The wheelchair you know like the wheelchair accessibility bathrooms are always a little bit bigger I went to a wheelchair accessibility bathroom in the computer science building And, um, when I was at Stanford for some reason, I just would like, When I was procrastinating on stuff, the way I got it done is I'd go to a bathroom, I'd pick the wheelchair access one so it's big enough, and I'd sit on the toilet and reply to emails.

I don't fucking know why. My legs would go numb. Dude, there's a certain point, this may be TMI, but like, I had fucking hemorrhoids because I did this shit for like seven hours on the loo. Oh man, uh, Yeah, and so there's just something that I really thought was funny, like I wanted to sit. on the toilet in the wheelchair accessibility bathroom in the Gates computer science building and turn it on for the first time and I held it [00:15:00] and yeah I turned it on and it turned on and

I picked this kind of like spiritual shape as the first little like image you see when it turns on it's called a Merkaba it's like a star of David but it's it's got 12 points and it's got all the platonic solids in it and so it just combines like the science and the spiritual into one Um, which is what I feel like, what I'm interested in, and, uh,

I don't know, I'm a bitch. It turned on, I was like, Oh god, this looks bad. I was like, immediately I started critiquing the shit out of it. Like, I think I'm a perfectionist. I think I have a vision for where something is. So like, immediately. But I think also it's, it's more, it's less vulnerable, you know, to be back to work, you know, criticizing.

But that's why I close my eyes, because like, [00:16:00] I'm like, My mind did that, but I think my body was like, Oh, you're not a fraud. It was like the first time I was like, Oh, I'm not a fraud. It's like, you know, you can talk the talk. You can say the things I really believe the things I say. I try to, I try to really only say the things that I really believe, not want to believe, or I want you to believe, but I believe, and it always hurt that it felt like other people didn't trust me or believe it.

I took it as a lack of trust, or a lack of belief, now I see it as just like, I saw it as a 50 percent probability, and they saw it as a 0. 001 percent probability, right? They didn't see it the way I did. So to have something in my hands that I made, that literally has never existed on planet Earth, never existed in humanity before, that only exists here because I had a thought in my head while I was in my parents basement, that now is an object in my hand.

It's like what you're saying. It's like, it's like looking at your baby, you know, like this is real. Like I made this, like this would not exist if it [00:17:00] wasn't for me and, you know, thousands of other people also whose work I pulled together. Yeah. It was like, I, I didn't feel like a fraud. That was like the biggest feeling like I'm not a fraud.

Yeah. I mean, imagine the version of Anjin. 10 years prior, literally in that same stall, getting hemorrhoids, sending emails, if you had like a crystal ball and saw this vision of you 10 years later, literally making the world's first blue light free tablet, which is like just incredibly high. People, the listener is not going to understand how amazing this product is until they actually get to experience it themselves.

We got to yesterday at the office and my, when Tristan first told me about it, like to be honest, my initial thought was like, all right, well, is this just going to be like, yeah, A shittier version of a Kindle that doesn't have blue light in it. That was my expectation. And then when we used it at the office, I was like, Oh my God, the experience, the size of the screen, how fast it is, like the crispness.

Like, I was like, I remember thinking, I'm like, dude, I want to just read all my books on this thing. I want to start using this thing. So [00:18:00] you, you don't fully understand it until you get to experience it. But, Like, can you only imagine if you knew ten years prior that, like, you were gonna have that moment.

You would have been so proud of yourself, too. But it's, it's like, you have to, I think about that all the time with me and Harry. I'm like, you have to fucking remind yourself of that stuff, too. Where it's like, your brain is still like, oh, I could do this better, I could do that better. And it's like, bro, I literally willed this thing into existence.

It's incredible. for giving me a chance to, like, yeah, relive that. I actually haven't really thought about that. It's always, it's always tough to stop the ride when you're the fucking wheelchair one. That's what I just remember. Do I need to start going to a wheelchair restroom? Cause you can put your backpack down, you know what I mean?

Oh, you can do full work? It's bigger than most people, it's bigger than most people. I hope it didn't block any wheelchair people from using the bathroom. Just move the wheelchair sign to this, this. Um. No, but it's cool hearing that because I think like a lot of [00:19:00] times when you're building something You don't take the time to actually appreciate like those moments along the way where you know Like that was a cornerstone moment for you guys like actually having the physical product Yeah, and for it to come on April Fool's like or just right about was kind of like crazy.

Yeah, what's um, What do you think about when you are holding your product and you're thinking about like the kids who are going to be using this, the kind of like core mission of what you guys are doing is so antithetical to like modern tech. Modern tech is get them addicted, get them using the product as much as possible, make as much money off this product as much as possible.

And you guys have this product that is blue light free, enables you to have some privacy components that modern tech basically just doesn't have. And so you're actually building something that's tech, but it's very different than what we're used to. So what do you think about when, you know, you start to think about the future and like kids using [00:20:00] this and parents using this and then actually enabling like a whole, Different relationship with technology than what we have right now.

If I'm perfectly honest, I get actually kind of, kind of a bit sad. Um, cause to me that's such an empowering, powerful vision. Like, I think the science is getting more and more clear that blue light and the stimulation and all the bings and bobs and notifications and distractions on a computer, it like, changes your brain.

Like, the rates of autism and ADHD, the um, there's a theory that blue light changes And a pregnant mother, it changes the way the neural crest in her baby develops. And when that, it's literally, it's called the kinetic isotope effect. When it affects the thalamus, that shows up as autism. That's still a new theory, but it's like pretty interesting.

And so, um, I just [00:21:00] think it could have such enormous impact. Like, I think about it, like, would Tolstoy be able to write in the books he did? If he had like, if he was trying to do it on an iPad with YouTube and ESPN and Twitter right beside? Like, no. I Like, holy fuck, man, like, what future Tolstoys are we losing because of these things we're throwing?

This is a thing that's never done before in history, right? Thing, like, give a little kid infinite magic, right? Like the, it's a beautiful quote, like, if you want god like power, you need to have god like wisdom to use it responsibly. It's like the Spider Man thing, right? Great power, great responsibility.

Essentially, you're giving a kid insane power. Right? It's like, you just gave them the keys to a candy store and you're like, do whatever the fuck you want. It's not the kid's fault for fucking wanna, trying to eat everything, right? Like, wisdom takes, takes time. And so, I think there's a lot of sadness because they see the great possibility to help.

And maybe it's a daylight computer that helps, maybe it's a daylight phone, maybe it's a daylight laptop. Maybe it's some Chinese person that knocks us off and makes it for a quarter of the price and [00:22:00] that's what gets popular in the world. You know, if we fail, I'd be happy if that happened, right? Or maybe it's Apple.

Apple says, fuck these nincompoops and we're gonna come out with the Apple Health Edition. I don't know, maybe Tim Cook actually does that in the next one. Maybe he gets the balls to actually do that. And you know, that's what people use. I think what's sad is, in spite of that possibility for impact, still how there's such a high reasonable chance that we fail.

And, um, I think the reasons we fail is people think the price is too high. Um, I don't, I think, you know, if you look, compare it to how much you spend on health and how much your health matters, I don't think the price is high at all. Um, I think, you know, People might bring a different frame and think the price is too high.

I think it fails because people says, Why would I buy a computer that does less? Like, I want more bang for my buck. You know, I want it to do more things. And I think, once again, that's like not really the right frame, because a computer can do more, but if you're just overwhelmed and distracted and unhealthy, you're [00:23:00] doing less, right?

Like, I love the phrase, like, a computer that does less so you can do more. Right, so if you bring that frame, you're like, well, of course I pay money. So I can do more, but I'm afraid people might not have that frame, and then they might not, they might poo poo it, like, oh, it does less, right, it's black and white.

And I think the third reason is, um,

it's just hard to make hard choices, like, if your entire life is in the Apple ecosystem, like, there's gonna be some frictions to move to something that's not made by Apple. Right? Like, I think it's survivable. I think you can still use your iPhone and Macbook for other stuff, right? It's a complementary thing.

I think people are gonna be like, yeah You know like I gotta I can't I have to do two steps to copy something over rather than one step You know I need to like use their share sheet rather than airdrop it or I need to use Beeper or text. com to get iMessage on their phone or whatever it may be on our tablet And [00:24:00] so I think the third reason it fails is just people have really high standards for what technology is today because they're used to a computer.

Three trillion dollar company making their stuff. I think they're used and coddled and in the convenience of the Apple ecosystem. And so, um, I hope through the right education, through the right people talking about it, through the right ways of, hey, this is philosophically different. This isn't about more choice.

This is about more intentional choice. This isn't about a million colors and contrasts and specs. It's about your health and feeling better. And so, um, I get sad at the possibility that I'm too idealistic. We're too idealistic for the culture that exists. Um, and it fails. And, uh, to your point, it could have so much positive impact either directly or indirectly.

Mm hmm. I would think that the benefits of using daylight, not having blue light exposure, being able to enjoy a sunny day at [00:25:00] Barton Springs and read a book on there, for me at least, I know I'm biased, would far outweigh the benefits of potentially being able to integrate iMessage. It's like, Right. Right.

I actually would probably want to use Daylight because I literally don't want my text to pop up while I'm reading the book. I want to be immersed in the experience. Right. It goes back to what you were saying about like, all of the creation that we've lost out on because people are just like, jumping from app to app to app to dopamine hit where it's like, you need those blocks of like, deep creative work.

And I actually think that using Daylight will facilitate that. And I think people will wake up to that too. And I think, um, I mean, I'll do my best to try to educate and share the ways in which I think about it and therefore created it in that way. But it's going to be folks like yourself and other folks that are educating.

I think that's the only way forward because what we're doing is we're, we're going, we're going across the grain of the current culture, right? Which panders to you. You know, it's like the whole [00:26:00] Jeff Bezos quote, like customers will never say no to more choices. And we're like, fuck you dude, we're actually saying no to more choices, because you're lying to us.

Because often more choices means less choices, right? There's a famous experiment. You give people 24 jars of jam, they end up picking like, only one or two of them. You give them six jars of jams, they pick a lot more evenly. Because you get so overwhelmed when there's 24, you just pick the one that's the brightest color, right?

Or whatever. And so, I think you can't go off of the naive, Oh, more choices is better. You have to actually look at what the outcome, the proof of work is, what the empiricism is. And so, I think that's a cultural, psychological, philosophical battle. Right. And then the products get bought based on who wins that philosophical battle.

How do you think about the speed at which you guys are growing, can grow, because when I hear the project, I'm like, there's this like core audience who's just like so here for it that you could [00:27:00] probably sell a tablet to, a laptop to, a phone to, and then like build the ecosystem. Because when I think about Apple, I think about the integrations that they have that are like, you know.

Text sync up and all this stuff that, you know, copy paste on your phone, it goes to your laptop. Um, but we've gotten so used to these tech companies basically like blowing up overnight and just being massive successes in the course of a year. Right. Big exits, things like that. Right. But, You know, the usability component of it, too, is also kind of important in the modern tech landscape.

So, like, what do you think about in terms of speed of growing? Sure. Oh, that's a beautiful question. Hopefully, given your background, private equity, you can appreciate this. I like, um, my friend Yatu and Norm, they call it, like, being a concept composer. Like, you don't paint with pixels, you paint with ideas.

And, like, that's how I think about myself. I'm like an idea designer. Systems designer, and so one of the, I'm not just trying to design a tablet or I'm not just trying to design the software. I'm trying to also design the business model. I'm trying to also design the [00:28:00] financial incentives, the way we raise money.

Because to your point, if you raise money from a conventional venture capitalist or a conventional source of capital, they're so quickly looking for that return. Because they want you to IPO in three years. They want you to do this. They want you to put all your money into growing really fast. And uh, it doesn't matter what good intentions you have.

When you have their money, you're captured. Right. And so I think a lot about designing who our investors are. How do we find the most aligned sources of long term capital? Where that we're not just a return for them. We're, oh, I want my kids and grandkids to grow up with these type of computers. Oh, this is my way of like having impact on society.

Because I can't solve this problem with money, right? You actually have to create something new. You have to create an institution. You have to create a product. And so for me, it's how do I get the right investors? How do I get the right business model? How do I have the right, um, cost overhead? Such that we're not forced to constantly seek new capital.

That we can be cash flow positive. That we can be free cash flow positive. [00:29:00] So we can just finance our own growth. And opportunistically, when we find the right investor, who we really trust and trust us, we can take their money and know that we can build the business for the long term. Um, who knows? We might stay private for a lot longer than any of us expect.

Uh, but I think, The key is going to be not needing to grow at some pace because some investor wants us to do. Not growing at some pace because we're worried about a competitor. I think the cool thing about what we're doing is if you look at Apple, to me, they don't have any competition. The Samsungs of the world, they can do great hardware, but their software sucks.

And so, Asian companies can do hardware, they can't do software. Western companies can do software, they can't do hardware. Other than Apple, you can maybe say Tesla or SpaceX, but they're not really, you know, personal electronics. There is nobody. And so in so much as we're baby Apple for this generation and we have that ability to do hardware and software and brand and supply chain, we have no competition.

That's why it's so hard, right? There's such a great filter. That means we don't need to go fast to outcompete. [00:30:00] We can just make good quality products, maintain trust, be with the community, listen and build it. And so, um, I like to say like being a slow company is probably one of the most powerful things we can build because I feel like speed and fastness and worry about competition.

It's what makes companies do stupid shit and stuff that makes stuff zero sum, right? Like, I don't think capitalism always needs to be zero sum. I don't think companies innovating always needs to be zero sum. It can be good for us and it can be good for, you know, our customers and the world around us. Um.

So a slow company is kind of like one of the key goals I want to pursue now in the short term because we're launching and it's growing fast and it's going from, you know, a research project to a real company and we have to do e commerce and customer service and marketing and hold events and build community.

The team's growing like crazy and that's a lot. That's a lot. It's chaotic, but it's fun. But uh, hopefully, [00:31:00] hopefully there's more and more examples of what our values and mission and purposes. There's more for people to cohere around like if somebody joined our company two years ago It was only how many walks they went with me is what like how they can know what we're about Hopefully even like a podcast like this like in a way It could be more valuable or as valuable for somebody wanting to join our company or somebody on my team To know what we stand for what our values are You know if they're joining quickly, you know, if I'm not spending a lot of time with them Hopefully they're self selecting to people who are on the same page Yeah, there's serendipity that comes from things like this that, you know, like a CFO would be like, Hey, why are you going to go spend 2, 000 to go on this podcast?

And it's like this intuition that you have of like, It might not make sense to you, but I know that there will be at least one evangelist that listens to this podcast that absolutely loves the product. And he or she shares it with like 50 of their close family and friends and creates a spider web [00:32:00] effect.

It's like when you were saying about the new hires, how you were like, this doesn't make sense on paper, but I just think that they have the X factor and we need to bring them on. It's like the same thing with this. Like even yesterday, my initial thought process was like, It was like, this turnout's good.

I wish we had a hundred people. And then Tristan was like, dude, 15, 15 people signed up for pre orders after the, after the thing. Dude, that's 15 orders from one event. Yeah. What if we do a hundred of those things that are way bigger? And what if we get you on like, the biggest podcast? What does that look like over the course of two years?

Right. It's like the serendipity, man. Yeah, it's crazy. You can't quantify it, but it's there. Right. And I think, uh, hopefully, in a way, um, I just want to, like, work with good people. You don't need to be outcome oriented. Like, I enjoy spending time with you. Even if, like, eight people listen to this podcast, like, I'd be totally okay.

Yeah. Right? Like, it's, it's the right eight people. And I think that makes it fun. Mm hmm. Because we're not clout chasing or trying to find the biggest. We're just trying to find, like, Who do we, like, enjoy spending time with? Who, like, shares our values? And hopefully that continues that core of [00:33:00] authenticity.

Because I'm definitely afraid, as we scale, it's like, It's like the most authentic food is like mama's home cooked food, right? But scale kills that because she can't cook for 200 people. Yeah in which ways does scale kill our realness? And what can we do to try to fight back against that? Mm hmm. Yeah in a lot of ways I hope the person who finds this podcast is the entrepreneur who Two people, the entrepreneur who's maybe a little bit nervous at the beginning and not really sure if they're doing all the right things and they're afraid, they're scared, they're feeling the fears.

Like, I think this conversation is pretty raw. like canvas of like what it means to be an entrepreneur. There's just aspects that people don't see or experience unless you're the person, you know, holding the controller, playing player one. And then the second group of people is people who are looking to improve their health and trying to have a better relationship with technology.

There's so much. So, um, I think it's really important that we don't think about all the little [00:34:00] parts that go into making a car or laptops, computers, all these things, but all of them are interfacing with us every single second of the day. So I think, like, really taking an audit of the tech we're using, all the things that are around us and, You know, trying to make them as healthy as possible, which I think is exactly what Daylight is trying to do.

So I'm pumped that this conversation is out there for the, for people to take value from and I'm just appreciative of you coming on, man. This is great. Yeah. Thank you for having me. If I could say like one thing I wish somebody told me for the entrepreneurs in the audience is, um, maybe I could say it more as an image than anything else, but like, to me, what it means to be an entrepreneur is you're, um, you're like holding on to like a live wire.

And, uh, like something, something's downloading through you, like some intuition, some trend, some insight, some feeling, you're just fucking holding that thing, right? And it's electrocuting the shit out of you. And there's two basic impulses when you're getting [00:35:00] electrocuted by the By fraud to hell. Is, either let go.

Or you get incinerated and I feel like the two most common outcomes in any entrepreneurial endeavor is you let go or you get incinerated and insomuch as you hold on and insomuch as you don't get incinerated, that voltage that's coming through you is literally upgrading you if you do it right. That voltage is just upgrading you in real time over and over and over and over again.

And so I think a lot of entrepreneurship people are like, am I good enough? Am I not good enough? Am I this? Maybe I'm not smart enough. Maybe I'm not charismatic enough. Maybe I'm not this. Oh, I'm not good enough at selling. It's like, it doesn't fucking matter, dude. If you don't let go and you don't incinerate, just let that fucking voltage feed you.

And like, if you were to talk to me like five years ago, I was a totally different person than now in the sense, like, I wasn't like this same person, same person, same IQ, same skills, same old stuff [00:36:00] is just that voltage has fed me and it's made my internals align, right? Like I have access to myself and so I would just say is like, don't have a sense of like, am I good enough as an entrepreneur?

It's like, if you don't let go and you don't incinerate. It may take longer. For some people it may happen in two years, for some people it may take twenty years. But if you don't let go and you don't incinerate, like, let that voltage feed you. Like, you will become that version of yourself that does what you're meant to do.

And, uh, that image has just been very helpful for me and maybe it's helpful for a couple other people. Well, it's helpful for two guys sitting on opposite ends of you. So, brother, we appreciate it, man. I think one of the coolest parts about, you know, Social media that I always say is if you use it right, you can build some of the best relationships and friendships that you can imagine.

So I'm just so grateful that through this whole path that we've gotten connected and again, we're just massive believers in what you're doing and proud to call you a friend and proud to work with you. And I think this podcast is going to help a lot of people. So thank you so much [00:37:00] for taking the time to do this.

Hey, and thanks for creating a space of safety and mutuality where I felt like I could go to those places. So I really appreciate it. Cool brother. Thank you. Sweet. Brother.