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Golf Matters, presented by Golf Australia, goes behind the scenes of the game to explore the
people, places and decisions that make golf work. Hosted by Matt Chesterman, the series
brings practical ideas from leaders in golf and beyond to the people running clubs and venues.
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Ep.2. Golf Matters Podcast (Ian Denny) 271026
00:00:00 Speaker: Welcome to Golf Matters. I'm Matt Chesterman from Golf Australia. In this episode, we're talking about something that's fundamental to the future of our game the golfer experience. Golfers aren't all looking for the same thing. For some, it's their first visit to a driving range. For others, it's a casual nine holes friends, a competitive round on a Saturday morning, or the experience of playing one of Australia's great golf courses. And as an industry, understanding those different needs and how they change throughout a golfer's journey is becoming increasingly important. My guest today is Ian Denny, owner of Golf Services Management, or GSM. With nearly forty years experience in the golf industry, Ian and his team operate a diverse portfolio of venues from the internationally recognized Saint Andrews Beach to community focused facilities like Growling Frog and Hepburn Golf Course. What makes Ian's perspective particularly interesting is his focus on understanding the customer, not just attracting more golfers, but recognizing what they're looking for, removing the barriers that might stand in their way, and creating experiences that give them reasons to return. We explore the challenges of catering for beginners and experienced golfers at the same venue, the opportunities presented by shorter formats of the game, and why delivering a consistent, welcoming experience is so important. There's plenty in this conversation for clubs and venues of all shapes and sizes. I hope you enjoy listening to this conversation with Ian as much as I did having it. Let's get into it.
00:01:40 Speaker 2: And Danny, thanks for taking the time to join us on this episode of Golf Matters.
00:01:44 Speaker 3: My pleasure Matt. Good to be here.
00:01:46 Speaker 2: Forty years in golf. I wouldn't be doing it justice if I gave an introduction to you. can you please introduce yourself and what it is that you're involved in in golf?
00:01:57 Speaker 3: Yeah, certainly. Matt. Yes. I received my forty year commemoration from the PGA yesterday. I've got a little gift in the mail, which certainly makes me feel a bit older than what I feel at times. But yeah, I've been doing it for forty years now. started off as a trainee at Victoria Golf Club under Brian Simpson, who I'm still very close with as my mentor. started there in eighty three, did a three year traineeship under Brian, went out and played for a year, then got the position as head professional at Amstel Golf Club in Cranbourne at twenty one. So I was the youngest club pro in Australia, which was pretty unique at the time, had about five dollars in the bank when I got the job. It was the first club of its kind in Victoria to have pokies, which was an interesting, the way it unfolded there because a lot of clubs criticised Amstel heavily for taking on the pokies, from there, after a period of time, it was going very well. And they bought a parcel of land opposite the golf club about one point five kilometres away, um, which is now known as the Ranfurly Golf course or golf club. We now call it Ranfurly Golf Club. So at that stage they built another golf course with the intent of having Amstel, um, basically running as a public venue and then ran fairly as the as the private club for its members. Mike Clayton designed the golf course. It was the first of his four courses. it was just a wonderful experience to go through building a golf course as they did. I remember I helped the captain who was a carpet layer. I remember helping him lay the carpet out about midnight before the day we were opening. The next day, we had a time constraint to hand over land and so forth. And, um, it was an incredible journey upstairs wasn't built. The pro shop was only half completed. It was an amazing, um, and we pretty much moved all the membership from one course to another overnight. that commenced and that would have been, uh, early Two thousand and one, I think we opened up Ranfurly. it wasn't difficult to turn Amstel into a public golf course because, you know, it was a good public golf course. the reason why Amstel didn't continue on with the one course was it needed coach fairways, it had terrible irrigation system. And really it just wasn't living up to the expectation of golf moving forward. the Amstel Park golf course became public, as I said, and that started to go quite well. And then at that stage, what happened was from memory, the, the pokies became non-smoking. Um, so overnight, the whole gaming industry had a massive slowdown, which put the club under a fair bit of pressure because it had its maximum debt as it had just finished the other course. Um, so as things were unfolding, it became obvious that as the debt levels weren't decreasing, that the smartest thing to do was to sell up the park golf course, which was bought out by the brown group. Um, and they've developed around that. The Amstel clubhouse is still there now. It's an incredibly successful gaming venue. Right. But it's a community hub. They're extremely community based. and that's a very successful business. I was there club pro and I was running around fairly and Amstel for them as their PGA member. when we went down to one club, at that stage we'd already taken on the operation, the more at Golf course, which was a very busy golf course in Vermont with a driving range. And we'd also at that stage got engaged to to take over Saint Andrews Beach by the administrators after that had gone through its troubles. So all those things happened in the space of a few years. And to continue on with the Ranfurly story, what happened there was that the club asked me to remain on as their corporate general manager. So our company basically was the general manager as such, overseeing the golf
00:05:29 Speaker 3: So I remember sitting down with the president, Graham Percy, with the idea of turning the driving range into a commercial driving range, at the time probably unheard of to bring in public into a private golf club. but at that stage, there was no one coming through the gates at Ranfurly. So that would have been around about twenty twelve or thirteen. It was towards the end of the Amstel Park golf course. So we went through a process there of um, of obviously going through the permit stage for the club and so forth. And then, uh, Scotty Djawadi, who's my general manager now, he was the, uh, the venue manager at Ranfurly working under my team. between us, we pretty much project managed the whole thing. once the committee were on board and we gave them some projections and the visitation, uh, we moved forward in that process and we designed, um, oversaw the builders who did a great job. next thing you know, we had a commercial driving range that has exceeded expectation way beyond belief.
00:06:24 Speaker 2: Back in back in twenty sixteen. That's fairly visionary to invest in a driving range space. We see that quite a bit now. But in twenty sixteen golf was in decline certainly from a membership perspective. Yeah. Um, we didn't have that social media boom that we're seeing now. Um, how challenging was that conversation with the board of Amstel Ranfurly to, to invest in that space at the time.
00:06:48 Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, it was challenging in one sense because obviously the board members at the time, who were your traditional golfer, the thought of having, you know, people coming in, kids belting balls, you know, golfers wearing activewear, it was a pretty big move to to do that. But we were lucky with the design of the clubhouse allowed us to have a segregation between the members could enter up the left hand side of the clubhouse, and the public could enter in the right hand side and go directly to the driving range. Cranbourne was just flying, you know, there was just houses going up everywhere, young demographic. tradesmen, we knew that if we could set it up properly that it would be successful. we built two premium rooms, which um, mainly due to the fact that it was a little bit tight for space and we could only have fourteen bays that were open. two premium rooms with two bays in the meat. So we had eighteen bays, but the two premium rooms, no one had done anything like it. It was way ahead of top golf and all the things like it wasn't even heard of back then. So we we felt that there was a room for a party type atmosphere, and that people would pay for a private room and pay a premium for it. It was probably the biggest risk of the whole operation, really, for me to convince them that to put in a premium room, which was really just getting there and have your own private room, we deliver drinks and food and and you're paying by the hour, which was unheard of back then. Yeah. Um, and that kicked off and became very successful very quickly. And the whole driving range, now is just a beast. membership is now at one thousand members. it was purely the exposure of the range walking in and seeing a golf course. They've never seen it before. You couldn't see it from the road. So people had this feeling of a big brick wall. I can't go in there. Well, the driving range basically got the public into it and from there it just grew from there. And people will go, well, if I'm going to hit balls here, why aren't I joining here? Apart from the fact we've got a lot of people coming in, the fact we got membership back to one thousand and then our full all to do with timing,
00:08:45 Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about where the where the driving range is now
00:08:49 Speaker 3: late last year, we were highlighting the fact there was, there was waiting times of up to two hours of a Sunday. and regularly one hour waits during at all times. we put in, in range technology. we felt that that had a bit more scope for what was required out there. It was sort of in between TrackMan and, Toptracer and Topgolf was in between. And that was really been a good, good thing. It's a good fun, but also looks after the guy that wants to practice because you've got a unique blend, like in a top golf, for example, or seventy or eighty percent of the people who don't play golf. Yes. Whereas those that A serious driving range like Albert Park, I believe, you know, there's a lot more serious golfers.
00:09:26 Speaker 2: The grinders are out there.
00:09:27 Speaker 3: Yeah. Whereas in Cranbourne, you know, you've got a big mixture of both. So we had to cater for both markets. we commenced that back in May with the automatic ball dispensers and, and now you book online and pay by the hour or half hour, whatever way you want to book. The members still have access at certain times to come and loosen up before their rounds, and the members still get looked after very well.
00:09:46 Speaker 2: So you balance the access to the driving range based on the demand from your various customer cohorts that presumably at eight o'clock in the morning on a Saturday, it's predominantly those golfers looking to warm up. But Friday nights at six o'clock that that entertainment philosophy kicks in and everyone's there just to have a good time.
00:10:06 Speaker 3: Yeah, the majority of members use it, you know, to warm up. So we reserve half the base for members at certain times before their rounds. Yeah. And then if they want to come and book a bay outside of that times, they get discounted pricing as well. But basically it's, you know, the idea originally with the range was to provide them to hit some balls to warm up.
00:10:24 Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:10:25 Speaker 3: the vast majority are certainly non-members that are using the range, a lot of beginners, a lot of activity. It's very busy. but like everywhere that transition from the driving range to the golf course is a challenging one. Um, and whilst membership has grown substantially, they have a lifestyle membership, which is a really good stepping stone. So it's certainly not your traditional um standard private club. MM. Um but it's got a good mixture of both and uh, you know, and it's got a very promising future. I think recognising what the customer is there for is crucial. Um, trying to establish whether they're there for a bit of fun, whether they're there to practice. Um, and luckily enough, it ran fairly. They have the two set areas. So, you know, the sports bar, you know, it's a casual area in all aspects and the staff are very good at making everyone feel welcome and so forth. at Growling Frog, which has been another incredible success. Um, we have the one area which is basically the one service area for golf around the, around the same bar you can directly opposite. You can get a coffee or a beer. And then around the corner you can get a meal. It's got a bistro, so it's the one stop solution. It's got a driving range there. Certainly scope in the future to expand that. Although the area is growing rapidly, it's still a little bit too far out at the moment I think to justify the massive cost. Um, but that's another good story. we went into an unusual agreement that had a profit share of improvement with the council and, and growling frog is now, um, making a profit, which is quite remarkable given seven years ago it was making a million dollar loss.
00:12:03 Speaker 2: It's a significant turnaround like it shows. It shows the growth in golf more generally, but it also shows that yourself and GSM, you know what you're doing. You run a you run an operation that services the needs of the customer and understands that really well. you also operate, uh, some other venues as well. You've got five now, which, which venues are you touched on growling frog that you operate, which is the other venues.
00:12:26 Speaker 3: We have an agreement with the City of Whittlesea with Council. Um, we've been at Hidden Valley up in Wallan, which is about twenty minutes further north from Growling Frog. Uh, we manage that on behalf of the owners, Arcadia, who are a, um, a company that has a number of businesses and basically retirement living, um, is their main focus there. so we've taken that over. So we're slowly turning that around. We don't do the don't do the food and beverage there. That was already contracted out when we took it over. So basically we do the golf. It's got a gym, uh, pickleball courts, um, tennis courts and, and a driving range, which is slowly, you know, it just takes time and consistency of delivery is really important. Um, it's really easy to come in there and, and bastardize price and get people there straight away. But as soon as you drop your pants, it's very hard to pull them back up.
00:13:15 Speaker 2: Well, you've talked about the demand being higher than ever. how does that look at a venue like Saint Andrews Beach, for instance, that you also operate? So that's a fully public access venue down in the Mornington Peninsula. Yeah. Does that has that opportunity look for you at the moment?
00:13:29 Speaker 3: Yeah. Saint Andrews Beach is a very unique situation. Um, in the sense that the demand just continues to grow. There's no doubt that, you know, the design of Tom Doak drives in huge interest from both interstate and overseas. it got listed as number eighty nine in the world last year, which was quite interesting because we had no idea that we were even being ranked. Um, so, you know, and that created a lot of controversy. You know, how could it be in front of Peninsula, Kingswood and Victoria and so forth, which, you know, from my perspective is fantastic. Um, but, you know, the reality is it's just a, just a wonderful golf course, and whether it should be eighty nine or two hundred and fifty nine, it's a quality product. I think anyone that goes there would find themselves going to a very welcoming environment. there are no members, there's no presidents, car parks. It is all about coming down and having a wonderful experience. we get a lot of play during winter because whilst other courses are wet in the city down there, you know, there's golf carts on every day of the year. We've never had a golf cart off because of the terrain. So it's a combination of perception coming in, design ranking, um, and what you get on the day. Um, but the demand there is incredibly strong. It's very quiet during the week. Like if you want a great game of golf, just go midweek at Saint Andrews Beach, you'll have the golf course to yourself and then a course of a weekend. You know, demand is high. Um expectation of how long it takes to get round is a problem in the industry.
00:14:55 Speaker 2: Is that across all of your venues or just anywhere that's everywhere.
00:14:58 Speaker 3: Everywhere, because you've got a mix of, you know, your traditional golfer who thinks you should be able to get round in four hours. And if you're playing three and playing Stableford, well, then you will get round in four hours. But if you're playing in a four and you've got, you know, one or two people who only play a couple of times of year, they're playing on a golf course. They're not used to, um, and they're there to enjoy themselves. Then, you know, realistically, most people will be probably happy taking five hours and enjoying it. Um, and just taking it all in and providing, you know, we've got the drinks cart out there and giving them service, they're happy, but there'll be an expectation that you should get random four hours. And probably our biggest complaints that we get down there are slow play um, particularly over the peak periods, but on the peninsula, that's unfortunately what you probably need to expect because not everyone's a full time golfer. Um, and I think that probably leads to another point, you know, the expectation competition golf is just an obsession in Australia. Yes. You go overseas. It's not even a factor that the majority of golf courses, you don't walk into a golf club and they say, do you want to play in the comp today? That just doesn't happen. So our obsession in Australia with handicaps and um, playing in a competition is really good in some aspects, but very detrimental in others because, you know, you've got half the field playing stroke and half the field playing par. You know, that straight away causes angst because you're playing par on the comp and you're picking up and the group in front is just out for a casual hit and playing stroke, well, clearly you're going to be held up.
00:16:29 Speaker 2: how do you manage those expectations about with with your customers? That might be ten minutes apart on a time sheet.
00:16:36 Speaker 3: we've put a cap on player numbers and we've expanded our tee times because of that reason to try and alleviate some of that problem. Because, you know, the price is getting up there. It's one hundred and thirty nine dollars for a game of golf at Saint Andrews Beach. Mhm. And that's all day, every day. Doesn't matter what day of the week you play. That's the price. And we stick to that price. So we need to control our playgrounds to make sure the experience remains consistent moving forward. It's easy to take the cash grab and just get as many players on as you can. And yes, everything's fantastic. But the reality is, you know, you you wear and tear on the golf course. We're investing more money back into, you know, regressing extra irrigation, all sorts of things. And we have a good relationship with our contractors program to do a great job down there. Um, realistic expectations, not expectations of a, something that has to be right for a two weeks time for the club championships. For us, it's about all day, every day. The ceiling of a green fee is an interesting part of the industry at the moment. As to what what is a fair price to pay a round of golf? it's escalated a lot in the last two years, which is great because obviously we've got more revenue coming in and that allows us to contribute more money back to the expenses because the expenses are going through the roof. Yeah, we've got to get that balance. But at what point does it become too expensive? You know, we keep waiting for the bubble to burst, especially the way things are at the moment. But playing numbers are still strong. Um, we've had a normal winter this year for the first time in a while and player numbers were a bit down. Um, I think in August was the first time we hadn't hit budget for probably three years, but September bounced straight back because we had good weather.
00:18:11 Speaker 2: What strategies do you put in place to. To set the price at the right level across your venues like. There's some significant difference between your venues. You touched on Saint Andrews Beach. That's a top one hundred golf course in the world. The international market has a part to play there. Bayview is being that really community venue. Hepburn again, being slightly different regionally based that you've just taken over, how do you what is your strategy that you put in place to, to drive that pricing outcome?
00:18:38 Speaker 3: we're monitoring even closer than before how many nine hole players we're doing and seeing where the market is. your nine hole pricing probably needs to be considered because the nine holes, particularly in the afternoon is crucial for the industry. how do we get people to get engaged in the game, the stepping stone from driving range or simulator to eighteen holes is too much. We put up a lot of barriers. Um, you know, we make people take their own, got to have their own set of golf clubs. dress regulations apply. There's a lot of barriers to coming in. You know, I see it particularly with the first tees close to the pro shop or the clubhouse. Um, some people are so daunted by teeing off in the first hole. Yeah. So, um, the barriers that we need to, to break down I think are that nine holes in the afternoon is probably the only way or mid-afternoon. It's the only way we can get beginners on and not be out there pushing them and telling them to let the players through from behind. That's where it's hard. So, you know, you finish, you've hit balls for ten times in the driving range. You're ready for a game of golf. We tear them up on the first hole at ten o'clock, and there's two hundred players on a Saturday, and they're surrounded by people that can play. You know what happens when they fall in the hole and a half behind? How how hard do you push them to let the group behind through? It's it's very uncomfortable for a lot of people, particularly if you have two or three in the group. Um, it's, it's not the ideal scenario. So the only way I can see it working moving forward is to try and do something a little bit different. And I think unfortunately, the only time it's probably going to be, you know, mid to late afternoon, which doesn't suit everyone, um, moving into, into Hepburn golf course, which was a very unique situation where we've taken over ownership of that golf course. in twenty twenty four. So we, we own the title and we're not answerable to anybody, which is very unusual. So we have a thing called fund five. And luckily enough, we have five holes that are fairly close to the, uh, the fourteenth tee is quite close to the clubhouse. So we have a thing called fund five where people can come down, they pay, I think it's thirty three dollars at the moment, or thirty seven dollars with a tiny little golf bag for clubs. Balls and tees are all included. And we just hand it across and they can carry it with them.
00:20:49 Speaker 2: Yeah. Great.
00:20:49 Speaker 3: Really, really cheap and economical. Uh, we have a golf tee. We have tee markers that are halfway down the fairways on most holes, because then the beginner doesn't feel as intimidated and the tee markers are yellow emojis with a happy face on them.
00:21:02 Speaker 2: Great. So you're encouraging people to have fun.
00:21:04 Speaker 3: Get out there and have fun. And we give them a scorecard. And it's very clear on the scorecard. The rules are there are none and then it goes through them. If your ball ends up in the bunker, throw it out. If it's a little bit damp, tee the ball up. Um. Everything is about making sure they enjoy themselves. There's no rush. But if you're holding people up, just let them play through. Um. Everything about that particular section, um, of the market is about growing the game. It's certainly not, you know, putting in huge volumes yet, but the people that come down really enjoy it. Um, but in an area like that, the vast majority of players who are tourism, they're looking for nine holes. Um, they're not looking for eighteen. it's given the course incredible exposure and most people probably coming down and end up playing nine holes. Yeah. We don't enforce one set of clubs for each player. And we have found that people have been happy to pay a green fee. And we say, do you want some clubs? We've got these little junior bags here with four clubs, and if that helps you, if you're a lefty or need a lady set and we actually include that in the green fee, or you can hire a full set of clubs at twenty five dollars or the usual pricing. So but it's all about making them feel comfortable, not making anything a hassle, and just getting out there and having fun. We've got a beautiful balcony. We just renovated the clubhouse. We spent a lot of money renovating the entire facility, so we're hoping that that'll progress moving forward. And the club's about to turn one hundred. So we've got some big celebrations happening over a two day event recognizing one hundred years young. We're calling it since we've only been there a few years. Um, yeah, it's quite exciting.
00:22:37 Speaker 2: So thinking about some of those golfers that, uh, come in and played at Hepburn nine holes for, for their first time try and golf and you provide them with a great experience there. How do you handle that when someone books in for their first game of golf at Saint Andrews Beach, for instance? That's a. It's a very different style of venue. Is there a strategy you put in place to to help that customer have a have a good experience there?
00:23:04 Speaker 3: Yeah. Obviously, the difficulty is you don't know until they get there. Um, and because everyone books online now, particularly every weekend. So that's, that's been the big change in the industry is booking online. Um, no question about that. Uh, but you don't know. Um, and even if they, because they book their, their golf carts and their higher equipment, but they could be booking a set of golf clubs at Saint Andrews Beach because they're, they're from interstate or they're just down there on holidays, whereas they're probably booking a set of golf clubs at Hepburn or Bay views because they don't they're not a golfer. So you don't really know until it gets there. And all of a sudden, you know, you have a group of eight turn up and it's obvious that seven don't play golf. That's when it's challenging. Um, especially if it's in the middle of the afternoon or early afternoon when it's still busy. You know, your staff, you might be down to two staff instead of three. Um, that's the biggest challenge is how do you keep that moving and how do you encourage them to call people through? But at the same time, you know, you could have a beginner group out there for nine hours that can take three hours. Yeah. The people behind them aren't going to tolerate that. So that gets back to that whole combination of how do, how do we get people engaged in the game and make them feel comfortable without forcing them to play at five o'clock on a Saturday night, which they're not going to do? Yeah. So that's the challenge we all face.
00:24:22 Speaker 2: Does it happen often? Like, is it is it a regular occurrence that you get that group of four beginner golfers on a Saturday at ten o'clock at Saint Andrews Beach?
00:24:31 Speaker 3: Not at Saint Andrews Beach, although you'd be surprised, particularly this time of year when you know you have groups going down there that you know might only play once or twice a year, that's not uncommon. They're normally not beginners. They've played a little bit, certainly at Bayview and Hepburn particularly, we have people that, you know, have basically never played before, and they're happy to play the sixty four dollars and get a car and get a green. You know, they're spending one hundred dollars, no problem. Um, but they're probably doing it once or twice a year. So how do we keep them flowing with the rest of the field is the challenge? Yeah. Um, you know, bucks parties, all that sort of thing. They're, you know, they're very profitable, but they're also problematic. But then again, it's probably the only sport you can play where everyone's an equal. Yep. Whether you're a well for beginners probably not fair. But um, we are very fortunate that we can have all different levels of ability to still go out and play. Um, as I said, if we could we drop some of the emphasis on the competitions that would probably help a little bit more to keep. So people didn't mind if they go in a bunker just to pick it up, whereas now they're in there, they're fretting, oh, what if I can't get the ball out? And a they're embarrassed and it just slows things down tremendously. So that's the challenge as to how do we keep everyone enjoying themselves.
00:25:38 Speaker 2: How do you think we can influence that desire to play competition, golf in Australia? Like we play more competition golf in Australia than any other country in the world.
00:25:47 Speaker 3: it probably needs to be a bit more about, you know, throwing it out of a bunker or pick it up. You know, I think we probably just have to, um, help people understand that it's okay not to complete the hole or to throw it out of a bunker. You know, it it should be okay. You know, if you haven't got an official handicap, throw it out. Um, but unfortunately, with the emphasis on the competitions and the handicapping, it's driven a lot of business into the industry by having good competitions. But the prizes have been, you know, considerable. There's some really good competitions offering big prizes now, but that's problematic in the sense that A they're trying to win, you know, handicap configuration will always be questioned. Yeah. On some situations that's that's uncomfortable and no good for the industry in general. Um, so yeah, how do you get that balance of keep it social versus yeah, yeah. Come down and play and, and win a five hundred dollars golf bag. we don't place a lot of emphasis on the competitions. Yeah. Um, at Saint Andrews Beach, every second group comes in and asks, is there a coupon because they're a member somewhere else. So therefore they're playing golf. They expect there to be a comp. Whereas if I went and played at seven mile or somewhere in New Zealand or whatever, it wouldn't even cross my mind to go into competition.
00:26:58 Speaker 2: But yeah.
00:26:59 Speaker 3: That that's just the way the industry is at at the moment, which is really good in one sense, but once again, too much emphasis on scoring. So if you went and played at Hidden Valley or whatever. Yeah, there's a competition on um, but we certainly don't say, you know, come and play in our Stableford event. It's come and play golf.
00:27:15 Speaker 2: shifting a little bit to retention, loyalty and flexibility. What do you look to learn from that survey of golfers that have played golf at your venues? How do you use that results of those surveys to influence your business. And if you've got any examples to share, that'd be great.
00:27:34 Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, I think, um, as I said, depending on the time of year will determine whether course condition is a factor. Um, generally the course condition, particularly at Saint Andrews Beach is never an issue. Um, if they play twelve days after doing a needle tone or a green renovation and you've charged full price, you can guarantee the survey will pop a few up as to, you know, they didn't know. That's another problem we have is how do you tell your customers that without scaring them off completely, that the greens have been renovated?
00:28:01 Speaker 2: Because that's a really hard one, right? Like it's a necessary process that you need to undertake onto the golf course to maintain great conditions year round. Like you said, you've still got a business to run though. You can't say, hey, our greens have been caught in the last two weeks. We don't want you to come. You still want that customer coming through, but you also don't want to Diminish their expectation and an experience of the venue at the same time.
00:28:23 Speaker 3: That's we we generally we certainly tell our social groups up front that there is a possibility generally when our. In Greens renovations have generally held the first week of September. That's the traditional date, you know, Father's Day weekends are quiet weekends. So traditionally the recovery period in Victoria is obviously a little bit slower through that period of time. If you do them in mid-October, you know, two weeks later, you're good as gold. So I think it's probably not so much the week of it happening. We close our golf courses for two days, give them a full run, get as much done as they can. And that week, you know, we have reduced pricing on there. The difficulty is that probably that period of two to three weeks post renovation, because it'll be weather dependent as to whether the course is back up to an acceptable level. And you can't just flick and change price, you know, at the drop of a hat because people are booking two weeks in advance at least. So that's, that's the challenge of it. So we try and judge when we think it should be. And if everything goes pear shaped. We would normally, you know, soften it up with, you know, a free Lego golf ball for every player. If we couldn't quite get them to where we want to be. That's the sort of thing we try and do rather than give away money and so forth.
00:29:29 Speaker 2: Rather than discount add some more value into the yeah.
00:29:32 Speaker 3: We do discount. We do. We have got a renovation price in place at most of the venues for the period of twelve to fourteen days. Post-renovation. Okay, because we know that the greens are going to be.
00:29:41 Speaker 2: Not where you want.
00:29:41 Speaker 3: Them to be. And it's the second week that kills you because the first week they're still quite potable with sand all over them because the holes are filled. It's that second week when you haven't cut the greens that they'll be really bumpy and so forth. So it's just a matter of getting that timing right. I think, you know, we try and put signage on our booking sheets. We don't advertise on Facebook that, you know, we're renovating the greens because that's not going to achieve anything. We just won't advertise full stop that period.
00:30:04 Speaker 2: So, Ian, You had your crystal ball out in twenty sixteen when you invested in the driving range at Ranfurly. What is the crystal ball telling you for the next five to ten years in golf? What do you think golfers are going to expect from their experience in ten years time? And if you're making decisions to invest in your venues now What do you think the the must do's are?
00:30:27 Speaker 1: I think consistency in what we provide is something we're striving to do. so that when people turn up, they know what they're going to get. we have to invest to make sure that our areas that are, you know, cart paths that have got potholes in them, which can happen overnight, unfortunately, um, you know, with heavy rain and so forth, we have to do whatever we can whilst remaining commercially viable. We have to be consistent and not only what we produce, but also on what we spend we're very fortunate, particularly in Victoria, where it's a twelve month a year activity, you know, even in the northern states when we had the golf course, you know, in in the Sunshine Coast, it was not a twelve month a year business. It's nine months. Realistically. And even right now, look at the weather they're having. They're, you know, getting.
00:31:09 Speaker 2: Getting smashed.
00:31:09 Speaker 1: Smashed in June, November, October. I mean, that, that never used to happen really. So, um, but we are very fortunate in Victoria, so we're just trying to make it a more consistent thing. How do you handle, you know, people want golf carts, like it or not, you know, how do we how do we get the golf carts on? And, um, in Victoria, as soon as the golf carts are off, the plane numbers dropped because a, they think the course is unplayable, even though it might only be in a few spots, that it's muddy and heavy and you don't want to get them out there. Um, in Queensland, you know, once they have the one eighty rule, which where they have the cart pass and you have to walk on the fairway, it just stops overnight. Like immediately the perception is if you've got the one eighty rule in Queensland, it's too wet to play. Yeah. Right. So would, you know, we'd kill for the one eighty rule down here in Melbourne when we get wet and heavy. So I think, you know, moving forward, consistency in what we produce, um, we have to somehow try and make it affordable for everybody. And, and I think the biggest challenge is how do we have areas that are to accommodate the new golfer versus keeping the traditional golfer happy? I think the short version of the game needs to be heavily promoted that it's okay to play six, nine, twelve holes. there's no harm. I think people are happy to play the shorter version. You don't need to have a half your price. You know, if your green fee is sixty four, I think you can handle forty five or forty eight for nine holes. No problems at all. People aren't doing it just for the price. Some may, but some are doing it because of time. Yeah. So I think no harm in keeping our pricing high for nine holes, but encourage and make sure the nine holes is a good experience. Hopefully they won't come in for, you know, a sandwich afterwards or a coffee or a drink. So but you know, not all courses are set up for that. Um, up at Hepburn, the ninth hole doesn't come back to the clubhouse. It's about a four hundred metre walk back up, which annoys a lot of people. And a lot of people want to play nine holes. So we now charge more, but we charge the nine or thirteen holes because the thirteenth green finishes very close to the clubhouse. So the green fee is basically fifty three dollars for eighteen holes now, and the nine hole fee is forty three dollars, but there's nine or thirteen. And most people go, oh, that's great. I can play a few extra holes.
00:33:14 Speaker 2: Yeah, awesome.
00:33:15 Speaker 1: And if they want to walk back after nine holes, they can.
00:33:18 Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:33:18 Speaker 1: But it's not not so much the money. It's more the time, more the experience. And a lot of people, you know, they physically don't want to play more than nine holes, particularly for someone that doesn't play a lot of golf. It's it's strenuous. It's not talking to a golfer. We don't even think about it, but just someone that doesn't play a lot of golf. Um, and, and that Hepburn it takes a little while. We've got kangaroos everywhere. We've got wildlife. Yeah. You know, people will embrace it and they're taking photos of kangaroos and so forth. Kangaroos, you know. Good. From a tourist perspective, not so good for a golf course owner. We have a few challenges there because they're multiplying at a rapid rate. And that's happening on the peninsula as well. You know, it's numbers have grown.
00:33:58 Speaker 2: But that's all part of the experience there at Hepburn as well, isn't it? Like people are engaged, people are taking those photos that that's the kind of stuff they're going to share on their social media and tell their friends about if it was their first time discovering golf, not only was there this great golf experience, but they got to engage with some wildlife and see something they wouldn't have expected, which I think adds to it and is is a great outcome for them.
00:34:18 Speaker 1: Yeah. One thing we're working on at the moment is having a hero board at each venue. Um, basically doing encourage people to take a photo of the backdrop of what they've got. And we're about to set one up at Saint Andrews Beach because everyone's taking photos at Saint Andrews. But where the clubhouse is, it's not a great area for photos, but everyone's hanging around waiting for their mates to go and so forth. The first tee is incredible. It's elevated tee, it's a great shot, but so we're actually building a board there for um, to have take your photo at that thing. And I think if we can get a bit more engagement out in the golf courses where people are, this is a good spot for a photo, then that's going to help you do your own self-promotion because that's by far the most powerful social media tool.
00:34:58 Speaker 2: So you'll encourage them to take the photo and share it directly with you, or share it on social media and tag your accounts. Is that the idea there?
00:35:03 Speaker 1: All the above. Yeah.
00:35:05 Speaker 2: Wonderful. So that customer starts telling your story on your behalf.
00:35:08 Speaker 1: Yeah. And it'll work both ways, you know, don't worry, they'll soon post if it's taken, you know, two hours to play the first five holes. They certainly post that one pretty quick. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so you've got to take the good with the bad. But I think that that's by far the most powerful tool moving forward is how do we get our customers to tell everyone, hey, this is a great place to come for a game.
00:35:26 Speaker 2: But you know that you're providing a great experience more often than not through your survey in there. So you can have confidence that that's not going to backfire on you, that you're you are going to get people telling the positive story that exists at your venues.
00:35:38 Speaker 1: Yeah. Look, it you do get both. You can't. And generally the person, the keyboard warrior is normally a negative one. So you've got to expect the fact that people that are angry will certainly get involved. Um, but it's just the world we're in now. So you've just got to, you know, make the most of it and try and get it to work for your favour. And sometimes it'll work against you and then and respond when it works against you, you know, don't get into all blue. Sorry that's happened. I mean, normally people will tend to embellish the facts a little bit to make the story sound better, but you can't defend that. So you've just got to try and do your best to work your way through it.
00:36:10 Speaker 2: And you've been very generous with your time Thank you so much for sharing your insights through your career in golf thus far. I'm really excited that you're excited about what's to come. You're still quite buoyant about the opportunities that exist in golf, which is which is great. Um, mate, thank you so much for joining us on golf Matters. I've really appreciated your time and um, look forward to chatting again soon.
00:36:31 Speaker 1: Thanks, Matt.
00:36:32 Speaker: A big thank you to Ian Denny for joining me on golf matters and sharing his experience and insights. There were three things that really stood out to me from that conversation with Ian. Firstly, we need to understand what golfers actually want. Not every golfer is looking for eighteen holes, a handicap or a competition. Some simply want to have a hit, spend time with friends or enjoy being outdoors. Ian's examples across his venues demonstrate just how important it is to recognise those different motivations and deliver an experience that meets them. Secondly, we need to make that transition into golf easier. I really liked Ian's approach at Hepburn, particularly the fun five concept, shorter golf, simplified rules, equipment provided, and an emphasis on having fun. It's a great reminder that some of the traditions and expectations we take for granted, as experienced golfers can be real barriers for someone new to the game. Importantly, we don't necessarily need to reinvent golf to overcome them. Sometimes it's about giving people permission to enjoy the game differently. And finally, a great customer experience is ultimately about consistency. Understanding what your customers value. Setting realistic expectations and delivering on them. Whether you're operating a world class destination course like Saint Andrews Beach or a small community golf venue like Hepburn Golf Course, people should feel welcome. Know what to expect and leave wanting to come back. With more people engaging with golf in different ways than ever before, the opportunity isn't just to introduce them to the game, it's to give them a reason to return to it. Thanks again to Ian for a terrific conversation. If you've enjoyed this episode, please follow or subscribe to Golf Matters. Share it with someone else in the industry and let me know what you think. We'd love to hear what your club or venue is doing to improve the golfer experience. I'm Matt Chesterman, thanks for listening to this episode of Golf Matters.