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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
[00:00:00] Carla Ondrasik: And they said, Carla, we wanna get this book out on the next release. Wow. So can you deliver this book to us in November? It was July. And you know, what did I say? Yes. Yes.
[00:00:16] Bethany Saltman: Hi, I am Bethany Saltman, a literary agent and award-winning author. And I’m Fran Hauser, a bestselling author and independent bookstore owner. And this is the Book Bound podcast. On this podcast, we talk to women writers about their nonfiction books, but instead of talking about what their book is about, we focus on the process of getting their book into the world. These how I did it, conversations will help you pitch your big idea, write killer proposals, find the right agent and publisher, and live an amazing book bound life.
[00:00:54] Bethany Saltman: Welcome to the show everyone. I’m so excited to introduce you to our guest, Carla Ondrasik. Carla is a former music publishing executive who built a trailblazing career helping artists reach the top of the billboard charts. Today, Carla channels her decades of industry expertise into empowering others through workshops, speaking engagements, and her new book Stop Trying!. In our conversation, Carla opens up about just how challenging the publishing process can be and the perseverance it takes to navigate it from start to finish. We talk about the emotional rollercoaster of writing a book proposal, including the moments of doubt and vulnerability that come with putting your ideas on paper. And we even dive into some of the nitty gritty logistics like choosing between Google Docs and Microsoft Word—spoiler, editors overwhelmingly prefer Word. We covered so much in this episode. We can’t wait for you to listen and learn. Hey Carla, welcome to Book Bound.
[00:02:15] Carla Ondrasik: I mean, I was born a person who doesn’t try. I never say wishing, hoping, wanting, it’s doing, having. I see the results, like the minute I envision what I want, I see what I’m going to get. It’s just my mindset. So because of that, I have been obsessed with self-help books and success stories. And then if you look at my background, I would make people’s dreams come true. I am a motivator by nature. That’s my happy place is I want to know what you want and I want to make that happen for you. And so I really thought that the message was that you write things down and when they get out of your head and become tangible on paper, that’s what makes the manifestation happen. I just thought that it was writing it down and it goes to a new level of now it can happen, but I realized it wasn’t. Writing down helps, but it’s the words that you use. So when you write down, I’m trying to, I’m wishing, I’m hoping they’re so weak.
[00:03:29] Carla Ondrasik: And I narrowed it down and realized it’s that try word. Because every time I would hear it, it could be the person at the table next to me. It could be my kids or a friend. When I hear try, I just hear failure. To me, you’re not going to do it. It’s not going to happen. Why are you doing that to yourself? So I would write, just write and write and write, and I’d screenshot a sign if I saw it—try to be here—or it would just trigger me. So I was documenting this try word, but my friends that know me knew because I would always tell them, don’t try, and then they would self-correct. So when I knew that it would become a book is I had this body of work and I thought, yeah, I’m going to see what happens here, but I had no idea who to call or I’m not going to just mail it out.
[00:04:24] Carla Ondrasik: And I actually probably did that. I sent a little few pages of my idea to agents and nothing happened. And a friend of mine actually knew an agent that was in town and said, Carla, you ought to send them a package. They’re at the Four Seasons Hotel and see if they respond. So I sent it out and it was a company, it was an agent from Sterling Lord Literary in New York, and this girl reacted so quickly. She’s like, I want you to come to the hotel. I really love this idea. Let’s talk about it. And so she set me up with not an editor, just someone to help me get my ideas out and flush them out, but I didn’t really love that voice that they wanted me to write in and their vision. And luckily 2020 happened, so everything stopped and I just let that fall by the wayside. I had never signed with them, and honestly, I just forgot about even writing a book. I just got into life with my family and just living, and it was always just like a little project I was doing for myself. It really wasn’t even for anybody else.
[00:05:40] Bethany Saltman: So you were triggered by trying, I love that.
[00:05:44] Carla Ondrasik: Yeah, that’s the answer—triggered by trying. I’m naturally a motivator. I want to help people. I want everybody to win. And if I know this big secret, I want to share it with everybody. That’s the short answer.
[00:05:57] Fran Hauser: So Carla, when did you decide that, okay, so this is going to be a book and I’m going to take the next step with it as a book, because it sounds like during 2020 you took a little bit of a step back, right? So tell us about that because—
[00:06:12] Carla Ondrasik: I love to read. I was part of a group called Happy Women Dinners, which is this amazing organization begun by a woman named Jill Daniel. And I would go to book events where she’d have an author and you’d have dinner and you’d get your book signed and the author would speak—really fantastic. And then I offered to host an event for her. She got to know me, I hosted a couple of them and she knew about my no try thing. Like, oh yeah, I have all these authors here and it would be so fun to write a book. Well, one of my events, I had 40 women at my house. Jill came up to me and said, Carla, there’s an agent here that you should meet. So she brought me literally physically in front of this agent and said, Carla has a great idea. It’s about not trying and doing and you guys should talk.
[00:07:06] Carla Ondrasik: And I think she reached out to me with an email days later, the agent, and said, let’s get together, send me what you have. And then that just evolved. She’s like, we can write this book. This can happen. I think I can get you a deal. I think it’s a great idea. And that was the beginning of my journey and I thought, okay, I’m going to do this and I’m going to sign with her. I love her, and now is the time. I’ve worked so hard, it’s time to do something.
[00:07:36] Bethany Saltman: Yeah, I love that. So I’m curious, I always think about our listeners and questions that they’re going to be asking. So what did you have in that envelope that went to the Four Seasons? And then what did you end up working on with the second agent? And it’s really important that you’re telling us about you had one agent, a fancy one, you weren’t feeling it, you found someone else, you’re feeling it. It’s so important to listen to yourself and wait for the right person. But so tell us what you’re sort of like the ingenue, if you will, what you sent in that folder that got someone’s attention. And then did you start working on a proposal with the second agent?
[00:08:16] Carla Ondrasik: The first envelope and the second envelope were exactly the same. It was me that was different. I think I was more ready the second time. So what was in the first was just all my ramblings about trying, and I was calling it the Try Trap, and I had just all these titles and kind of just basically an intro. This is who I am and this is what I feel about trying and this is why it doesn’t work. I broke it down into the basis of the book that I have out now. What do we think it means? Why do we do it and how it’s bad? Although very rough version of that, and it just never felt right. The first agent, it just was not my vibe. But with Dana, she got it. I felt like on the same level that I did, and I just felt very comfortable.
[00:09:09] Carla Ondrasik: And so she said, okay, first of all, you’re signing with me. That’s going to happen first. So that was very different from the first one. They didn’t need me to sign with them. And so I signed with her and she’s like, you have to give me, in her exact words, a smoking hot proposal. This is what we need. When she told me that I had no idea what a proposal was, this is my level of ignorance, like, okay. And so my first job was to read this book. Oh yeah, I love that one. Kelly Notaras. It became my Bible. She said, before you do anything, read the book.
[00:09:51] Carla Ondrasik: Got the book, read it from cover to cover. I have goosebumps right now just thinking about that time. And this really solidified it for me. And I just thought, wow, I am going to do this. And I started writing my proposal. There were outlines in the book, and I just went by that guide. I googled around, and the timeline is kind of fun too. So I met her in August of 2023, and the proposal took until April of 2024. It was one of the hardest things to do, actually. It was like a thesis for your doctorate, and I did the best I could. And then I just found myself writing in circles, the same thing over and over.
[00:10:41] Carla Ondrasik: And you have to put your chapters in there, your table of contents. And I really got into deeper waters than I was able to handle. So at that point, I said to Dana Newman, who’s my agent, I need help. I can’t finish this. So she recommended a few developmental editors, and I chose this girl, Marissa Solis, who’s out here in LA. That was my favorite time, is working with her. That process was amazing because in your proposal for a self-help book, you don’t have to give them the whole book. It’s just three chapters and then your table of contents plus all the other stuff. So I really needed help with her for that. And so she came over and we put my whole book on the wall. You’ve probably seen that process as authors yourselves. So we decided it’s part 1, 2, 3, and 4, and then what is part one, et cetera, and then what are your chapters? And when I saw my book on the wall, I mean, every step made it more real for me. And every step made me say, wow, I’m really doing this. It was just convincing myself through the whole process that it’s happening.
[00:12:00] Fran Hauser: You weren’t trying, you were doing it. You were doing.
[00:12:03] Carla Ondrasik: Exactly. Oh yeah. Yeah. Literally that’s what doing is. I jumped into the deep end and I just kept grabbing a life preserver when I needed it and just kept swimming, swimming, swimming. And so yeah, that was quite a process. A lot of emotion, a lot of breakdowns, a lot of questioning, a lot of learning. I mean everything. I am going to say it now. I’m 61 years old. My kids are launched. I’ve had different careers and this is the last thing I thought I’d be doing in this stage of my life, but it just took everything of the knowledge in my life to get to this point, to do it. But I was working in Google Docs. I had to learn Word, so I counted on my girlfriends. I’d say, can you send your kid over to help me do this? So everything, everything’s been a learning process.
[00:13:03] Fran Hauser: For me, but it’s so, I’m so happy you brought that up. It’s such a tactical thing, but we’ve never talked about this. Bethany, I struggle with this too because I love Google Docs. I live in Google Docs and writing in Word and collaborating with the developmental editor or with any writing partner in Word, it’s very different. The editors at publishing houses, they want to see it in Word. So I think this is such just really great tactical advice to just start in Word, don’t start in Google Docs and then go back and forth and then just do it in Word. It’ll make your life so much easier. So I’m really happy that you brought that up actually.
[00:13:46] Carla Ondrasik: All these things, I had no idea, and I struggled. I’m not technical, but I became that person and I’m still learning. I still have glitches and have to call my husband or the kids, or how do I do this? And yeah, it never ends. The learning never ends.
[00:14:06] Fran Hauser: It never ends. So take us through the pitch process, Carla. So your agent has this proposal, take us through her sending it out and the meetings and all that good stuff. When that proposal—
[00:14:20] Carla Ondrasik: Was done, it was the greatest feeling in the whole world, and we were really proud of it. So then I gave it to Dana and she was pitching it, and she went of course to the big five. And very quickly she got really good interest. And every one of the big ones said, we love this idea. We love Carla. It looks like she’s a dynamic dynamo. While I was writing the proposal I was speaking, I was putting myself out there simultaneously and acquiring endorsements and quotes and building my website and all of it. Love her. She’s amazing. Love this idea. This could be huge. And so it was an offer from Post Hill Press, which is through Simon and Schuster, and Debbie Englander was so excited, and I thought, wow. So yeah, I met with them on the phone and they made me a beautiful offer, and my agent happens to be an attorney, so it was perfect. She was very knowledgeable on everything, and I said yes. And then the crazy thing was, I think the deal offer was in July of 2024. By the way, the whole time that we were pitching the book. So I finished the proposal and then I kept writing. Working with Marisa, we just kept writing and writing. So I had a nice amount of stuff done, but we weren’t nearly done. And they said, Carla, we want to get this book out on the next release. So can you deliver this book to us in November?
[00:15:57] Carla Ondrasik: It was July. And what did I say? Yes, of course. So then that was it. My life shut down everything. I allowed myself one fun thing a day. It was maybe lunch with a friend or I’d go get shopping if I needed something, but it was one fun thing a day and everything else. And I’d work until four in the morning. I discovered my best writing would happen at eight o’clock at night. I mean, I’d write all day, but then something would just click when I got tired. I don’t know why, but I just stopped overthinking.
[00:16:39] Carla Ondrasik: And just what came out. I wouldn’t want to go to sleep. I would just be fighting to stay awake because I loved what I was writing. And I’d wake up in the morning and read it back and think, did I just do that? It was really crazy. And we delivered the book on time. Congratulations.
[00:16:59] Fran Hauser: That’s incredible. And also something that’s really interesting to think about is that writing zone. So finding that time during the day that really works for you and testing out different times, not assuming that it’s going to be first thing in the morning. That’s fascinating.
[00:17:22] Bethany Saltman: Hey there, book bound friends, if you’re loving this interview, we’ve got something special for you. Our Read Like a Writer book club is back, and we’d love for you to join us. This isn’t your typical book club. Each month we’ll gather on Zoom to study one of the books we’ll talk about here on the podcast, not just what we like, but how it’s written and why it works. In other words, we’ll help you read like a writer so you can write and publish your own book. It’s $179, five monthly sessions. You’ll get the book list, related podcast episodes, a simple reading guide, and then meet to discuss. That’s it. We’re so excited to dive in with you because we love books, we love you, and we really love doing this amazing work with other women like you. Sign up today at bookboundpodcast.com/club. We can’t wait to see you there.
[00:18:15] Carla Ondrasik: What was the process with your collaborative writer? In the beginning, I delivered this great chapter, which probably took me three days to write. I went off by myself and I felt so good about it, and she came back with, this is not right. This is not the voice of a self-help author. She really taught me how to write and just gave me the tools and showed me how not to be preachy, to give examples, and I’m a quick study. So then I said, okay, okay, I got it. Let me do this again. And so then I turned in and anytime I got a positive note from her, it was amazing. I was like, wow. I think because I really respect her. She’s so amazing at what she does. So the process went like that. I would write, and we got into our groove, and communication is really key when you’re working with a developmental editor.
[00:19:18] Carla Ondrasik: So I was thinking one thing, but she was thinking it meant another thing. So she was editing me based on her point of view of it. We were talking about two different things, but we didn’t know it. So once she realized and I realized, wait a minute, I said, this is what I mean, not that, then she was able to guide me and I was able to make the changes. So communication is key. We truly adore each other, and it was fun working together. She’s a very different personality than I am, and I needed that, and it really helped me. She’s very, very focused and literal. And yeah.
[00:20:20] Fran Hauser: In your acknowledgements, you thank an illustrator. I’d love to hear a little bit more about that because I don’t think the illustrations are in the version, the PDF version that we have.
[00:20:28] Carla Ondrasik: Yeah.
[00:20:29] Fran Hauser: So tell us about, so is it the cover, and then are there illustrations inside the book?
[00:20:34] Carla Ondrasik: Not many, but, okay. So an example of an illustration. See, because of the light.
[00:20:42] Bethany Saltman: Oh, nice. Yeah.
[00:20:43] Carla Ondrasik: I just wanted something for each part to express a visual of what is this trying thing? So for me, it was signs. The illustrator is a guy named Michael Ramirez, and he is a two-time Pulitzer Prize winning illustrator cartoonist.
[00:21:04] Bethany Saltman: Amazing.
[00:21:05] Carla Ondrasik: So.
[00:21:06] Bethany Saltman: Fun.
[00:21:06] Carla Ondrasik: We knew him and I actually just called him and said, can you recommend an illustrator? Because I had reached out to four or five and I just wasn’t feeling right. It’s a process. You have to go through a lot of people, and I thought, do you know somebody? And he’s like, Carla, I want to do this. I believe in your message. I think this is amazing, and it will be fun to work with you. And that was almost a full-time job coming up with the concept and then coming up with the ideas, then creating our own signs and getting it to be perfect. So yeah, you know.
[00:21:41] Fran Hauser: What, they’ll be great to use on social media too, so great. When you have original art, actually, speaking of social media, so the book is coming out September 23rd, how are you feeling going into the launch?
[00:21:58] Carla Ondrasik: It’s where I shed the most tears. I’ll tell you that. Look, I’m not going to fight it. I have to do it. And I think the more I do it, the more I learn, the less fearful I get. It’s never going to be my favorite thing to do. And again, I got to the point where I said, I really need help here. So I hired a girl out of Nashville, and she really said, you need consistency. She was great, and she actually helped to build my following. And now that we are 90 days out to the release, I need, that is the new focus right now is pre-orders for the book. I think that’s really important. So I’ve now stepped into a whole nother level of promoting and marketing this book. So yeah, now I have another person that’s helping me with that because I just needed to go to the next level.
[00:22:58] Bethany Saltman: Wow. Well, you’re really pointing to how much we need a team when it comes to publishing a book. And people don’t always understand that. They think that the publisher is going to do everything. We have a lot of power. We can do a lot. If we have the bandwidth, if we have the resources, we can really chime in and say, hey, I mean, I’ve worked with clients on books who they’ve wanted to develop their own illustrations, and the publishers are like, great. I mean, it’s good for them. And getting help with social media, getting help with publicity, it’s a good thing to remember that you don’t have to do this all alone.
[00:23:35] Carla Ondrasik: And it costs money. So you have to really pick and choose where you can put your money and how much you can spend and all that. So you have to do as much of it on your own as you can, but save those dollars for what it’s going to matter. So for me, I know that this time right now is so important, but I’m booking myself for speaking gigs. I’ve gotten all the endorsements. I’ve gotten myself on podcasts. I do a lot because I know how to do that. I know how to make things happen for someone. So I’ve just had to kind of turn that mirror on myself and go, okay, Carla, I need more experience speaking in front of a group. And every time you do it, you get better, you get stronger. So the social media learning curve is almost harder than the writing. Now I look back and I think, boy, the writing of this book, especially having a deadline was the best gift to me because knowing I didn’t have as much time as I wanted, it really caused me to focus. I think that’s always helpful. So yeah, the learning curve on social media is monumental.
[00:24:47] Fran Hauser: The other thing I would say too, Carla, is you have so many people in your network that are very influential, that have big platforms, and don’t be afraid to ask. Don’t be afraid to ask them to help get the word out about your book, because that can be hard too, right? The asking.
[00:25:06] Carla Ondrasik: For some people, I’m so good at asking.
[00:25:09] Fran Hauser: Awesome. Oh, Carla, this was amazing. Yeah, thank you so much. What a—
[00:25:14] Carla Ondrasik: Pleasure. It’s kind of a crazy story, but it’s pretty fun. I love sharing it. I haven’t really shared it a lot, so thank you.
[00:25:23] Fran Hauser: We’re so excited for you, and good luck with the launch. It’ll be here before you know it and enjoy it. And please let us know what is the best way for our listeners to follow you and to stay connected with you.
[00:25:37] Carla Ondrasik: Well, my website is carlaondrasik.com, so that’s constantly updated. Instagram is @carlaondrasik. Same with TikTok. And you can pre-order my book, which would be so exciting and help you. That’s also on the website. If you sign up, you’ll get a Try Baby test, a free test to see if you’re a Try Baby. And there’s a link to order the book on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever. Thank you so much you guys. This was really fun for me.
[00:26:08] Fran Hauser: Oh, thank you. Thank you, Carla. Take care. Bye. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Please subscribe wherever you get your podcasts, and consider leaving a rating or review to help other writers find us. And don’t forget to check out our Read Like a Writer book club, and our downloadable Book Bound proposal guide, both designed to support you as you bring your book idea to life. You can also find us on Instagram at Book Bound Podcast. Happy writing.