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As the CEO of Kit, Nathan Barry has a front row seat to what’s working in the most successful creator businesses.
On The Nathan Barry Show, he interviews top creators and dives into the inner workings of their businesses in his live coaching sessions.
You get unique insight into how creator businesses work and what you can do to increase results in your own business.
One of the things Nathan is passionate about is helping you create leverage.
Creator Flywheels let you create many copies of yourself so you don’t get bogged down with the little things in your business. Flywheels will help you reach a place where you can focus on revenue instead of busywork.
Tune in weekly for new episodes with ideas and tips for growing your business. You’ll hear discussions around building an audience, earning a living as a creator, and Nathan’s insights on scaling a software company to $100M.
Learn how to get more results with less effort and:
Grow faster over time.
Work less hard over time.
Make more money over time.
[00:00:00] Nathan: This is the framework. This is the physics of money and audience, and once you understand it, your entire future's in your control. Usually I'm the one asking the questions on the show, but today we're flipping things around. For the last six years, Dan Putt has been my coach. He's seen the highs and lows, the lack of confidence and the hard decisions that come with building a company.
[00:00:20] Dan: So what has changed for you? What has allowed you to be more confident?
[00:00:23] Nathan: One thing that really helped me was realizing the impact I was having on other people. A phrase you would use is Take your seat As a leader, we were just not functioning as a leadership team of this company. I said this is what we should do and here's why.
[00:00:36] And I like stepped in. Everyone settled and everyone was like, okay, that's clear.
[00:00:41] Dan: And that's literally taking your seat.
[00:00:43] Nathan: Yeah,
[00:00:44] Dan: let's bring the 13-year-old in, like what would he think?
[00:00:47] Nathan: 13-year-old me would walk into the studio, but he'd be more impressed with the other four studios that are open, like the tools for everybody else.
[00:00:58] To create whatever they dream up.
[00:01:01] Dan: I think one of the things I have seen not change is the why you're doing this.
[00:01:05] Nathan: I felt like I had discovered the cheat code to all of this. 'cause people say like, there is no cheat code, but then you discover that's amazing. It's an unstoppable force.
[00:01:19] Dan, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. So we've been working together for. Seven years. Six years as seven years. Six years as a coach. We met seven years ago, right? Oh, that's right. That's right. Yes. Um, and we just hit a fun milestone kit of 50 million in a RR. We're a little past that now, and I thought it'd be fun to have you on the show and reflect back on.
[00:01:44] Just that, that journey. And so, you know, in a minute I'll hand it over to you and, and let you interview me for the show. Um, but I was looking at some of the numbers. We were texting about this actually a, a few weeks ago. And when we first met was, uh, through an event that you hosted at Reboot. Where, what was that like 15, 20 founders altogether in Colorado?
[00:02:08] Yep.
[00:02:09] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:02:10] Nathan: Three or four days. Uh, what, how would you describe that event? What is, what is it?
[00:02:14] Dan: We call it a bootcamp. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was less of the physical demanding and more of the emotional, introspective, demanding experience, but it's just a chance for founders, leaders to come together, talk about the challenges better understand, you know, the best aspects of them is showing up to their company and their leadership and the worst aspects.
[00:02:35] And then really like, who am I and who am I becoming mm-hmm. As a leader.
[00:02:39] Nathan: Yeah, it was very powerful for me. And so I felt like I got a ton out of it, not just friends and relationships, um, but also like it was a, a step function and personal development for me. But I was looking back and when I went to that kit was at 12 million in a RR, and then a year and a half later.
[00:03:00] We started formally working together, um, you know, in a coaching relationship. Mm-hmm. And we were at 18 million, uh, in a RR then. And then, you know, fast forward seven years or uh, six, I guess six years, and, you know, now we're, have, have blown through 50 million and accelerating from here. Um, so in, in the spirit of doing a milestone episode and kind of talking back on that journey, I feel like I'm a pretty different person.
[00:03:25] Yeah. And you've had a front row seat
[00:03:27] Dan: for sure.
[00:03:27] Nathan: To, to all of that. So I'm curious, what are the things as I hand it to you, like what are the things that you would talk about that you think listeners might find interesting? You'd be like, oh, if you knew what went on behind the scenes, uh, you get to ask all the questions.
[00:03:41] Dan: I get to ask all the questions. I feel like such, such a privilege here. Um, you have changed a lot. Mm-hmm. I'm wondering if you, and, and I, I'm responding to your question with a question, which is, it's what you do, what I do, uh, it's my default mode, but I wonder if we could sort of imagine the Nathan of 2019, how old were you at that point?
[00:04:01] Uh, 29. 29. I was born in
[00:04:03] Nathan: 1990, so basically whatever year it is. Okay.
[00:04:07] Dan: So if we had the 29-year-old Nathan walk in the room, I mean, first of all, what would you, what would you know about him? Would you notice about him? What was he struggling with at the time? Can you remember that?
[00:04:18] Nathan: He wasn't nearly as confident.
[00:04:22] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:23] Nathan: Um, and not. Not to come across now of like, oh, I'm completely confident, or, or like arrogant or anything into that. Um, it's just like, I think there's a lot of second guessing, and especially around like leadership and team, um, probably a lot of trying to figure things out. Not particularly emotionally aware, like that's been a, like the whole EQ side of it has been mm-hmm.
[00:04:50] Uh, really a lot to learn and then probably optimizing for a lot of the wrong things. And an example of that would be in trying to get other people, like leading through consensus. That was a big thing for me. Yes. Yeah. And thinking that if I was like, well, what do you think we should do? And let's, okay.
[00:05:10] And we all agree. Okay, great. Thinking that that was a big positive thing when actually it, and we can get into that more, like made everyone. So uncertain in that confidence and like it just caused chaos in the leadership team and the organization. Yep. And all of that. And then I think probably the last part is I was still very much leading, really trying to take care of everyone else so that.
[00:05:33] I wouldn't have to ask people for something. I could always make sure that I was giving more in the relationship than I was getting back. Right? That I would not be a burden on someone else. I can be very confident that, you know, I've done more for you than you've done for me. And that way, you know, I can know that I.
[00:05:50] Uh, yeah. Wasn't a burden on you in, in any way and doing that, like all across, uh, the company basically All across all my relationships.
[00:05:58] Dan: Yeah.
[00:05:58] Nathan: So
[00:05:59] Dan: there's
[00:05:59] Nathan: a,
[00:05:59] Dan: there's a laundry list of things. I wanna go through all of those. Um, I mean, if we were to go through those pieces mm-hmm. The ways in which you have seen the way, the ways you've grown.
[00:06:10] So the 29-year-old Nathan mm-hmm. Was less confident.
[00:06:13] Nathan: Yep.
[00:06:14] Dan: Um, consensus driven leader, certainly focused on taking care of everyone else. First, right? Mm-hmm. Is how you, I mean, that's my, that's my way of putting it, not yours, but
[00:06:23] Nathan: Yeah. Where in the past I would feel like, one, I'm not even certain that, right, this is the right move, so let's talk about it for three months and then two, uh, even once I'm certain, then okay, that means that I have to have all of this figured out.
[00:06:38] And so then let's make a plan for another two months before we finally do that. Mm-hmm. And I think what I would project during all of that time is, uh. Like uncertainty to right everyone around. And so people would either say like, where do I stand? What are we doing strategically? We're not making clear decisions.
[00:06:57] Do I need to step up and like convince Nathan that this is the way to go? Um, you know, all of those things. Right. And so those are some big changes.
[00:07:06] Dan: How would you say your relationship to uncertainty has evolved?
[00:07:09] Nathan: I dunno who it's a quote by, but people talking about like, um. One-way doors versus two-way doors.
[00:07:16] I think
[00:07:16] Dan: that's a Bezos. Okay. Or at least he has popularized it. Yeah.
[00:07:20] Nathan: Yeah. Um, and so I think about that, that a lot. Mm-hmm. I think that's something that comes up of like, well, is this a reversible decision? And often they are. Right. You know, we're like, oh, if this doesn't work out or if this doesn't work out, you know, we can go back and try something else and we will have lost some amount of time and money.
[00:07:37] Not reputation or, um, relationships or some of these things that matter more. And then the other side would be when you're like, okay, this is more, more of a one-way door. And, and be that. What would make it that is either like you're really trying to capitalize a moment in time or there's something that if it doesn't work out, there's a big reputation hit or a big relationship hit.
[00:08:02] Um. You know, or if you're changing something with personnel, like you can't, that person no longer works the company. You're like, oh, but you were actually good. Like, you wanna come back probably nine times out of 10. It's like, no. Um, probably putting it in that framework. And then also I think I really looked a lot before as to whether or not there was a right answer.
[00:08:21] Like, what is the right answer? Not that I'm like a pure relativist now or something, but like, I just don't think I, I think there's a lot of right answers to most problems. Like how do you think about that?
[00:08:33] Dan: Well, my, uh, colleague, mentor Jerry, I think he stole this from his therapist, but he would always say that there's a right way, there's a wrong way.
[00:08:42] There's a way that works. Just figure out the way that works. And I think kind of to the framework of the one-way door versus two-way door. I think what I'm hearing in the way you describe it, which I agree with, is recognizing that the stakes aren't always life or death. And sometimes I see founders and leaders get stuck on this like.
[00:09:01] All the decisions feel like life or death decisions. Mm-hmm. And therefore, I'm stuck in this analysis paralysis, whereas I can recognize, actually the stakes are kind of low here. The, the higher risk thing is, is delaying.
[00:09:13] Nathan: Right.
[00:09:14] Dan: You're dragging your feet on it. And I, I will often quote this, and I, and somebody's gonna probably prove me wrong on this, but this Harvard business, I think it was a Harvard business study of essentially the effectiveness of decision making from CEOs.
[00:09:26] Mm-hmm. They found roughly that a third of the time decisions were negative. A third of the time, they were neutral. A third of the time they were positive. Yeah. So the way I think about, it's like, okay, two thirds of the time you're gonna make a neg a neutral or a positive decision. Mm-hmm. So speed is more important than Right.
[00:09:41] Nathan: Okay. Yeah.
[00:09:41] Dan: Um, but, uh, you know, I think what I, what I have seen in you is a recognition that, that you can recover from. Wrong mistakes. Mm-hmm. You can, you can, you can survive 'em, which I think a lot of folks don't understand or get. And that can come from also being like, I need to be the leader that has the answers and is strong and steady.
[00:10:03] And knowing that you don't have to be, that it's okay if you make bad decisions. Yeah. If you can correct them. And actually mistakes are places to learn. So I've seen that in you too. But so I, but I hear though that you didn't put it this way, but the way that I heard it was. And it just feels different to make decisions than it used to.
[00:10:22] Mm-hmm. Feels like it may have been a lot more scary, a lot higher stakes, a lot riskier. Whereas now it's less so.
[00:10:29] Nathan: I think it's the, it's the difference between making the right decision and the best decision.
[00:10:35] Dan: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:10:36] Nathan: And best decision is not framed within all of the information. Uh, you know, known to mankind and all of the time available.
[00:10:47] It's like, you know, the best decision for this moment. And so actually having, like, being willing to accept, making the wrong decision and, and so that, you know, that goes to the, the Harvard study of like, look, if you're gonna be wrong or neutral, I may be wrong about that being a real study too, by the way.
[00:11:01] So someone go ask their AI to look it up and, and we'll see. But realizing like my job is to collect the information. And make a decision from there. And a clear decision is so much better than hanging out on uncertainty. This is something that I learned from one of our, um, product leaders, uh, who was at the company for a few years.
[00:11:22] She had sold a startup to, uh, Walmart. And so then she stayed on as a, like a senior director or VP at Walmart in their Walmart labs division. And the, the leader that she worked for was really good, was not consensus driven at all. So you'd think like, oh, they're not listening, they're not, uh, you know, maybe it shows up as, as a dictator, I would've thought that.
[00:11:46] But what this leader did is they gather everyone around and say, here's the decision that we have to make. What do you think? What do you think? Go around and be like, okay, thank you. All right, Dan, you win this time. We're going with your plan. Here's why. And they could go and reflect back to every person.
[00:12:02] So first they would do, uh, they would reflect back what each person said. To the point where everyone's like, oh, you understand my argument in my case, like as well as I do, sometimes even better. And then they'd make a clear decision. And so realizing that my job was not to make the best decision or the, it was not to make the right decision because I can't truly know what's the right decision.
[00:12:27] Yep. My job is to go and collect the inputs, make sure that I truly understand that, make sure that each person is heard. So I didn't just be like, that was a dumb, like, dumb idea next, right? Or whatever. Um, if I can articulate that, uh, you know, 90% as well as the original person can, like, that's great. And then to make a clear decision and everyone will accept that and move on.
[00:12:52] And they might not think that it's the right decision, but they can see the whole process unfold and they can say, I was heard, like I, I said what I should have. I was clearly heard and. Now I can execute on it. I can, you know, another Bezos that would be disagree and commit.
[00:13:09] Dan: Yep.
[00:13:09] Nathan: And that was like, that was so freeing.
[00:13:12] Mm-hmm. Because then like the difference between my job is to make the right decision and from my job is to listen to the inputs, fuck them back, and make the best decision that I can in this moment.
[00:13:25] Dan: I love that. I mean, I will, I probably have said this to you. I always tell leaders that your job is for people to feel heard, but you don't have to listen to them.
[00:13:35] Hmm. So you can, you want them to know that you hear what they're saying. Right. But you don't have to do what they say.
[00:13:41] Nathan: Yeah. And that, that was a huge hangup for me.
[00:13:43] Dan: Hmm.
[00:13:44] Nathan: Right. Because the way, the way that I felt to make someone feel like I was listening to them. That I heard them was to do what they wanted me to do.
[00:13:52] Yeah.
[00:13:53] Dan: Yeah.
[00:13:53] Nathan: And it's not the case at all. Like, you have to separate those things. Yeah.
[00:13:56] Dan: So when you think about, I don't wanna come back to the, the threat of the 2029 or the 29-year-old version of you, but when you think about, um, so your job is to make the best decision, not the right decision. Mm-hmm. Right?
[00:14:09] How do you know when a decision is the best decision?
[00:14:12] Nathan: I think one of the first things is getting clear on the timeline to make the decision.
[00:14:17] Dan: Okay.
[00:14:19] Nathan: Before, I used to think that if you let it extend for a long period of time, that was fine. Mm. Right. And now like this would be a big shift for me over the last six years.
[00:14:28] I think that time is very, very expensive, and not just the time of sitting down to do a task. The time that you let things go by, you let uncertainty persist or, or you let the lack of a decision go on. And so there are some things where you're like, oh, I'm gonna deliberately not decide this 'cause it's not important.
[00:14:47] But for the most part, if you were to leave all these outstanding decisions, like they actually cost energy. Absolutely. And they cost time. And so like we have a, just a simple Google doc that we keep track of, like what are the decisions that we need to make? And they're just categorized into like a now, next, later right.
[00:15:05] Of like.
[00:15:06] Dan: We're
[00:15:07] Nathan: deliberately not making these decisions now so we can get rid of some of the overhead. There're in the later bucket. Next is like we're co collecting information and then now is no, but really like you are costing, uh, uncertainty, you know, overhead, whatever for as long as you don't make this decision.
[00:15:26] Like that's a, you know, the next 24 hours or by the end of the week, uh, kind of bucket. Mm. That that helps a lot. So a clear view on time. I think the second thing is getting a sense of the information that you're trying to collect. Like who are the input providers whose voice matters? Because knowing that there's an infinite amount of information you could collect about any decision.
[00:15:50] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:52] Nathan: You know, where you're like, well I haven't gone out and read the five books on this that I could, or, or that sort of thing. So you're saying like, this is the information I'm going to collect, actually. Um. Brian Armstrong from Coinbase has a decision making framework. It's like a blog post that he wrote I wrote on medium years ago.
[00:16:10] That blog post has made me a lot of money because it helped make clear decisions where he is. Just like, define the problem, define the options. You know, like, here are the three actual things that we're considering. Uh, define who the input providers are. Let me pull someone, the right person from brand and from engineering and customer success because it touches all three of their, and then define the, the time bound and finally, define a clear decision maker.
[00:16:39] And if you, I would say we've used that process. There's a little bit in of people, read through it, define the options, do a blind vote, then discuss it in a preset order, and then, um. Do a second vote and the decision maker takes all of that and then makes a decision, right? Uh, usually we require that decision to come either in the meeting or within 24 hours, whereas going with, of defining those inputs, you're saying like, I'm not gonna collect all the information.
[00:17:07] I'm gonna collect it from these exact people. And then the next is, is the definition of the options. Mm-hmm. Something that I do all the time is just list out all the possible options, even the ones that I would never do. You know, and you're like, but that is an option that a rational person might choose to do it.
[00:17:27] You know, uh, we're gonna raise a whole bunch of money. There's a reasons I'm not gonna do that, but that is an option to achieve the goals. So I'll list it out and then I can step back and be like, all right, all seven of them are listed. Here's the three that I'm actually considering. And then I'm not like, stuck on my three thinking, ah, is there a fourth?
[00:17:45] And then the clarity of who the decision maker is. Uh, something that Brian Armstrong talks about is. Trying to push it down to the person closest to the problem. And that's also really freeing. 'cause I used to have this idea that, oh, the senior most person needs to make the decision. There might be times, um, you know, that I'm like, I'm going to be the decision maker on this because of it's a one way door.
[00:18:11] You know? And even if it doesn't work out, like I don't wanna put that pressure on the person who ultimately made, uh, a decision that didn't work. But in all of those things. You can end up with a very clear process and solve for speed, and you've heard everybody. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's just completely different.
[00:18:32] And the only thing that I feel like I don't, in that, that I don't do well right now is identify when a decision is, like you and I talking and going, yeah, sure. Let's do this. Okay, cool. And we move on. That's like one end and then the other is, okay, this is so important that it needs a formal process.
[00:18:51] Dan: Right.
[00:18:52] Nathan: And you can end up wasting a bunch of time in the middle. Mm-hmm. Where you actually spent a week or three. Swirling with more and more people and uncertainty and all of that. And when you should have just said, I, what we, what we call it is saying, I am calling A DMF, meaning the decision making framework.
[00:19:09] Anyone has the right in the company to say, I love that. I call this, you know, and everyone's like, okay. And we have immediately move into the formal process. Um, and so sometimes we wait too long to do that. Um,
[00:19:22] Dan: but you have a process. What's interesting in, in hearing you talk about what makes a, makes a decision the best.
[00:19:29] You didn't say anything about the outcome.
[00:19:31] Nathan: No. You can't know the outcome,
[00:19:33] Dan: right? It's not,
[00:19:35] Nathan: which past me would obsess over the outcome,
[00:19:37] Dan: right? Yes. And
[00:19:38] Nathan: how do you know, and how can you be certain? Yes. And so if you, that's kind of the, the, I guess the paradox of it is that you have to let go of any attempt to grasp for certainty.
[00:19:53] Dan: It's come back to the, your relationship to uncertainty. Hmm. And, um, but also putting a process in place and recognizing a process is manageable and repeatable. Right. I mean, it's, it's the Howard Marks line of, um, you can't tell the quality of a decision based on the outcome, tell a quality of a decision based on the process.
[00:20:11] Hmm. And what I hear is you have developed a process like Yep. The process that you have today is very different from what 29-year-old Nathan would Oh, yeah. Would've ever night
[00:20:18] Nathan: and day.
[00:20:19] Dan: But I, I guess one of the things that's really critical in all of that, so there's the downstream, which is the process and the cultural pieces, the DMF.
[00:20:29] Then up upstream of that is actually your confidence and you, you started with this whole thread around, well, I'm just much more confident.
[00:20:37] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:20:38] Dan: But if you were to have 29-year-old Nathan walk in here and say, Hey, be more confident, I wouldn't do it again. Like, so what has changed for you? What has allowed you to be more confident?
[00:20:48] What has enabled that for you?
[00:20:49] Nathan: One of the first things is, you know, like a lack of confidence comes from uncertainty usually. So long as it's. An aware, there's plenty of people who aren't confident because they totally lack awareness or who are overly confident because they completely lack awareness, you know?
[00:21:06] Um, but if we're trying to get awareness in here, and then that brings us somewhere on the confidence spectrum. One thing that really helped me was realizing the impact of having on other people. Hmm. Line that you say, uh, fairly often is one way or another you, you'll ask some version of like, is this serving you?
[00:21:23] Like this habit, this trait?
[00:21:25] Dan: I was wondering what I was gonna say. Yeah, yeah. I do say that. That does sound like me.
[00:21:29] Nathan: Yeah. Uh, and it's different because it's not good or bad.
[00:21:33] Dan: Mm-hmm. Yep.
[00:21:34] Nathan: It's just, is it serving you like, you know, where you're trying to go and like, is that gonna help you get there or not? And so realizing that the number of times my lack of confidence meant that I was going to everyone else to be like, help me make this decision, or really actually.
[00:21:55] Please feel strongly enough about the, the correct path that you can make this decision for me. And then if you wouldn't mind convincing everybody else around the table, that's the right decision, that would make life way easier for me. So like abdicating, uh, like my role as a leader Hmm. And feeling like there were the outcome was binary of I could do that path where I listened to everybody and like we ne negotiated and debate and all of that until we.
[00:22:23] Got to certainty or consensus or the other way is I could be a dictator and I could say, this is what we're doing. I'm the founder. I'm the CEO, this is what we're doing. And not realizing that there's like completely different paths and both of those will like destroy, you know what? I thought that one was safe and the other wasn't.
[00:22:46] Being a dictator is not safe because then you're an asshole. You're, you know, people don't wanna work in that environment. All that. But consensus building felt safe because, I mean, consensus is even a positive word, you know? Mm-hmm. Like it, of course, we want consensus. Why wouldn't we? And not realizing that it was incredibly harmful to the organization because we didn't make decisions.
[00:23:13] We, you know, we con continually undermined our own confidence and. Realizing that, you know, all everyone around the table wanted was for me to truly listen and then to make a clear decision or 100% delegate the authority to them in that decision and say, your job is to truly listen and make this decision 'cause you're in the best seat to do it.
[00:23:34] So I think the, the confidence comes from, or in the change in uncertainty comes from a lot of reps, you know, just doing this many, many times. And having, having a process and realizing that the consensus based, uh, culture was actively harming rather than serving.
[00:23:58] Dan: But it's interesting because I think what, what you expose, there are some of the assumptions that you brought into this company.
[00:24:05] Yeah. And, and those aren't, that's not necessarily how the world works. Those are how. Nathan saw the world work. Yeah. Right. It's like I am safe when I have consensus. Mm-hmm. I'm unsafe when I challenge other people. Right. And that goes into how you related to conflict in the company. Not just decision making, but in general.
[00:24:22] But you always framed it as this like spectrum of consensus building or dictator. Mm-hmm. And when you and I would have those conversations about dictator, there's a party that really wanted to be a dictator, but that was not safe because it meant Right. Losing the people that you cared about being with you.
[00:24:39] Yeah. So I would say that what I see too is the present day you is realizes that, that those assumptions actually are not appropriate for how you wanna lead, and they may or may not be true anymore. Yeah. And it sounds like you're more in the camp of, um, the Brene Brown, uh, kind. Unclear is unkind, I assume it's actually kinder.
[00:25:02] To be more direct mm-hmm. With folks and to even be in conflict with them at times
[00:25:06] Nathan: when there's red Yeah. Redefinitions of it, right? Yes. Right. Growing up, for me, conflict is scary. Right? Uh, now conflict is healthy. You know, the lack of conflict would make me kind of raise an eyebrow and go, oh, that's interesting.
[00:25:20] Dan: Huge red flag. When I'm working with, with folks, we never
[00:25:22] Nathan: have conflict. What are you talking about? And you're like, huh, huh? Yeah. So what's unsaid? You know, it's the, uh. That, that whole thing. And so, yeah, it's a complete reframe
[00:25:34] Dan: and I've seen that shift. Mm-hmm. But so what I hear, I wanna follow more of the threads, but part of what has shifted your confidence is, is frankly just experience.
[00:25:44] Mm-hmm. And knowing that you can make mistakes. You can, you, you know, you engage in conflict and still be okay.
[00:25:51] Nathan: One quick thing on the experience is, yeah. I don't do this actively now, it's a habit that I, uh, should probably return to. But for a period of time when I was just trying to optimize for decisions and velocity of decisions is I would just keep a decision log.
[00:26:05] Oh, right. Yeah. And just write down what decisions did I make. And I, I think for a period I actually had like a decision quota where I was trying to hit like five decisions a week that I could actually write down. Because I'm just trying to, trying to build that muscle.
[00:26:20] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:21] Nathan: You know, it's like going, if we're gonna train for a race or something like that, maybe you're not like making the whole plan.
[00:26:26] It's like you gotta just at least get out and run to start, you know? And so just saying like, look, I'm gonna, um, build the muscle of making decisions. And then on important ones, I would write out things like, if this goes well, here's how I'll know if this goes poorly, here's how I'll know. Like, that would be a hiring decision or something like that.
[00:26:44] Yeah. But yeah, like. The log was helpful in that. How do you think about your relationship to uncertainty as a founder and just something that you see across the board with so many people that you coach?
[00:26:56] Dan: Generally, it's a, it's a fascinating, uh, complex topic and there are common themes, and then there are individual, so certainly at the individual level, how people may or may not define themselves on being right or not being wrong.
[00:27:13] What that meant for their love or safety or affection growing up. Like those add individual layers to it. But then, you know, in general I find that that, um, especially as for founders, they end up founders because they want to make the uncertain certain they want, they want to pursue an opportunity, they want to take an unknown and make it unknown.
[00:27:34] They wanna create something from scratch,
[00:27:36] Nathan: right?
[00:27:36] Dan: So they have a natural belief in their ability to do that. Also with that comes, um, I'll say an oversized sense of responsibility, okay. For both positive and negatives. I have lots of client founders who have an oversized sense of responsibility for only the negatives and discard the positives.
[00:27:59] So, um, you know, I, I will often tease them about it, but I, I have lots of people who will. All these good things are pure luck and all these bad things are my fault.
[00:28:10] Nathan: That's all on me.
[00:28:11] Dan: It's all on me. It's all on me. Is that
[00:28:12] Nathan: something that I show up with?
[00:28:14] Dan: Uh, no. Okay. Actually, I don't. I I would say you have a pretty healthy balance, uhhuh of them of responsibility.
[00:28:21] You don't deflect responsibility. Yeah. And you do claim like, and I, and I would say that if we think about how you've evolved since mm-hmm. 29-year-old Nathan, I think you do claim more of the positive. Yeah, you celebrate it more, you take responsibility for it more. I think you're good about distributing it that as well, but I think you have a healthy balance, um, in terms of your sense of responsibility for the positive and negative.
[00:28:48] Yeah, but I, I see like the, the, the discomfort with uncertainty. Folks try to get rid of the anxious feelings with logic and analysis and preparation, and it's like. How do I get rid of this, this uncomfortable feeling? Mm-hmm. By getting all the information I can, and to a degree that's important and helpful, but in other ways it's actually not serving you.
[00:29:16] Um, and I can go into that more, but
[00:29:18] Nathan: yeah, I think that's really interesting of, I mean, just going back to that question always of like identifying the habits and the traits and how you show up and, and saying like, is this serving you or not? Exactly. I think something also that you've helped me with a lot is not trying to fix everything at once.
[00:29:35] Like, we'll choose something that we kind of hone in on. Um, like decision making was the thing for a while. Like take the, a phrase you would use is, uh, take your seat as a leader, right? And so say like, it is actually your role and responsibility. And so we'd spend six months or more, you know, where that is the central thread.
[00:29:56] Um. Rather than trying to dive into all these different things at the same time.
[00:30:00] Dan: Well, uh, the, take your seat as a leader, it is a critical component that I feel like I, I see almost every client struggle with to some degree. Mm-hmm. And there's a bunch of reasons why that's the case, but
[00:30:11] Nathan: maybe explain really quick what taking your seat as a leader means.
[00:30:14] Dan: It's, it's to claim your right in authority as the CEO, if that's your role as your CEO in the company, to define what you're doing to make a clear decision, to take action. To know that you can say, this is what we're doing, even if everyone else disagrees. Mm-hmm. It's, it's really about claiming authority, I think is, is how I would frame it
[00:30:35] Nathan: before we worked together.
[00:30:37] I would see as a negative thing of like, oh, you think that you're better than the rest of us? Right. And your opinion matters more. All of that. I can think of a specific moment where we were having a, uh, board meeting and like executive meeting. It was virtual and our previous conversations had gone very, very poorly.
[00:30:59] And so we brought in you and Andy from Reboot, um, to facilitate it. And there's lots of times that you like, let us. You know, you're like, all right, let's see where this goes. You'd ask kinda the right questions and then you'd step back like all of those things, and that take your seat as a leader was the thing that we were talking through and working through the most.
[00:31:22] And I remember being on a recap call. Maybe immediately afterwards. I don't, you know. Um, and this is at a time where we're like, we were just not functioning as a leadership team of this company. And you can see it in like, the growth numbers that were around that time and, and everything else. I don't even remember what the decision was, but I said, this is what we should do and here's why.
[00:31:43] And I like stepped in. And the thing that you were reflecting back to me afterwards was like, did you notice what happened? And it was in a very, it was in a zoom room so you could like, you could still feel the energy though, like everyone settled. Everyone was like, okay, that's clear. And like me being able to see with like your reflection back, that even the people who I would say like didn't get their way, I made a decision that was against what they thought was best.
[00:32:13] They ultimately got their way because the decision happened and it was clear and they said, okay, I can bring that to life. Just watching the entire room change was like a huge turning point for me.
[00:32:25] Dan: I remember that. I'm glad you brought that moment up. 'cause I was gonna bring that up too. I remember that very clearly.
[00:32:30] Um, I mean, it comes back to the Brene Brown, quite clear. Clear as kind, unclear as unkind. I mean, even if I disagree with what you've decided, the decisiveness and the clarity is helpful for me. Mm-hmm. Now I understand where things are now I understand what the rules are, what we're doing. Right. But do you remember that?
[00:32:49] Do you remember how it felt when you made that decision? I mean, we don't remember the specifics. Yeah. But I remember that moment. I wonder if you do.
[00:32:56] Nathan: I, I mean, it felt relieving.
[00:32:58] Dan: Yeah.
[00:32:59] Nathan: Uh, calming. And I, I noticed some of it in that moment, in my, in that moment, my fear, you know, like, oh, oh, that worked okay.
[00:33:10] And my fear was that then people said like, okay, well I guess maybe they were dismissive. I was like, all right, well. At least Nathan made a decision, you know, or that sort of thing in the conversation, like your reflection, uh, back afterwards and the conversations with other people afterwards. They were, there wasn't a negative, like, you're, you're way of the highway, but at least you know, we have a path.
[00:33:31] It was like, it was very much a thank you for the clarity. And like genuinely. Yeah. Because I think in human relationships that's what so many people want, right? Like in not to equate running a company with raising kids, 'cause they're very different in many ways. They're similar in other ways, you know.
[00:33:48] But kids are always asking like, is this okay?
[00:33:50] Dan: Yeah.
[00:33:51] Nathan: You know, is this, where are the boundaries? What are their constraints? And. Most, many disasters in parenting come from when they are non-existent, when those boundaries are non-existent, unclear, or worst of all shifting.
[00:34:07] Dan: Yep.
[00:34:08] Nathan: And realizing like, oh, I just, I provided clarity.
[00:34:11] And everyone can be like, all right, well get on the board with that.
[00:34:13] Dan: And that's literally taking your seat.
[00:34:15] Nathan: Yeah.
[00:34:16] Dan: That's what taking your seat is. And I remember that moment. I remember, and it was Zoom, like you said, but seeing all those faces. And you could feel the frenetic energy around, like, and you could almost hear people thinking somebody make a decision and then you made it and then, then you felt the energy drop.
[00:34:33] Mm-hmm. Like in a settled way. Um. Just like setting a boundary with your kids. Right. You know, even though they may not outwardly like the boundary, you can kind of feel them drop into the safety of the boundary. Right. And I saw, I saw you do that. I mean, that was, but think about all the assumptions that you held prior.
[00:34:52] Mm-hmm. Think the rules you had around people and being in relationship with people prior to that moment.
[00:34:58] Nathan: Yeah. And I thought I'd be creating more conflict in, you know, and, and showing up as someone that I didn't wanna be. If I made a decision in that way, and it turns out the opposite was true.
[00:35:08] Dan: Well, that kind of goes back to, if we think back on the ways in which you're different than the 29-year-old Nathan.
[00:35:13] I mean, I remember having extensive conversations around that spectrum of consensus driven versus dictator. Right? It's like you kind of saw it as one of those two options. Yeah. So what do you know about that? Like how has your, your understanding of that evolved?
[00:35:28] Nathan: Well, I think one big shift is I used to define everything on a binary spectrum like that.
[00:35:33] Dan: Hmm.
[00:35:34] Nathan: Um, and I think the world wants to, you know, whether it's politics, like are you on the right or on the left, you know, or, um, in companies, are you building for growth or for profit? Like, are you, uh, consensus based? Are you a dictator? And really almost nothing exists on a single axis. I wrote a blog post a while ago, or a newsletter, uh, called The Single Axis Fallacy.
[00:36:04] And so I think a big shift is that I try on multiple other AEs in my graph. And so if it is, um, consensus based or dictator. You know, I'm like, okay, what if those were separate axes? What would that look like? And then it's like, okay, maybe it is, one is all about how much do you listen and truly hear and understand.
[00:36:32] Uh, and then maybe the other one is all about the clarity of the decision. And so if you don't, or the decisiveness mm-hmm. If you don't listen. And you make very crisp, clear decisions, then like, yeah, you are all the way in the dictator quadrant, right? And if you, uh, listen deeply and refuse to make a decision, then like you're in the worst consensus based.
[00:36:59] But we've taken this binary thing and turned it into, you know, quadrants and these two axes, and you can see, okay, where do I live in this, uh. In this area of decisions or this area of my life, and how do I want that to change over time?
[00:37:13] Dan: I've seen you do that effectively too, and you have such a care and it's at the center of the business, like such a care for people.
[00:37:19] Mm-hmm. And but there was an assumption that I care for people by listening to what they say. Mm-hmm. Or I do what they want me to do versus hearing them, but then still acting on it. We, we've talked a little bit about how you have changed from the 29-year-old Nathan. I think one of the things I have seen not change is the why you're doing this.
[00:37:39] I think it's been, I think you've added to it. I think it's evolved a bit, but I think at the core it has stayed true and stayed the same. I'm wondering if you remember this, I mean, early in our work together. This is part of how I like to work with clients is really understand why are you doing this?
[00:37:55] Mm-hmm. Not just because I'm curious though. I am, but also because I, what I've learned is that really being deeply connected to our why and thinking of the Nietzsche quote, um, he, he who has a why to live for could endure almost any how I probably butchered it. But the point being really being deeply connected to the y serves as this foundation to address anyhow, any challenge and.
[00:38:20] Suddenly the, the existential challenges, the challenges of the moment become a thing that we can get through and move through and learn from and move closer to our why. So I remember early in our conversation really exploring the why. Yeah. Do you remember that? Do you remember that conversation?
[00:38:36] Nathan: Yeah. I mean, it was something that that came up a lot.
[00:38:38] Dan: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Nathan: Of not just what I wanted to do, but. How I wanted to get there, right? And everything else. And so for me, there were so many aspects, like at the surface level, the why was I wanted to earn a living so that I wouldn't be a burden on other people so that I could take care of my family and all that in, in ways that I didn't see my parents being able to do.
[00:39:03] Right. And I was avoiding the level of conflict that I saw. Come from like a lack of money, a lack of resources and all of that. And then it evolved over time where I realized probably in 20, uh, 20 12, 20 13, around the time that I started the company, I felt like I had discovered the cheat code to all of this, where it was building an audience.
[00:39:29] At this point we make tens of thousands of dollars on the internet from people that you've never met before. And I was like, do you all know this? Like, this is incredible. The only other time I, I felt like that is when you discovered, uh, like travel hacking and using credit cards to fly for free, where you feel like why isn't everyone doing it?
[00:39:48] You know, it's like this amazing thing that's a available 'cause People say like, there is no cheat code, which on one hand I, uh, agree with, but then you discover these things that are just like very, very powerful. And so really so much of my writing and the work building the company around that time was about how do I show other people that this path is possible?
[00:40:12] And it's continued to involve from there. Mm-hmm. You know, now it's in the, like, how do I build those tools? And that's why KE has always had this blend of tools and training. And that's a lot of why this podcast exists. So much else, but like, yeah. Where, where in that did you want to go? That's the well overarching
[00:40:30] Dan: why is that particular mission so compelling to you?
[00:40:33] Nathan: Oh yeah. Yeah, so we got to this through many coaching. Yeah, coaching sessions and something that you do a lot of is you play with time. Right. And so jump back, what would you say to this, to you at this age? What's the difference between here and there? Um, jumping forward, the times that you've done this given perspective go, like on decision making mm-hmm.
[00:40:59] Of, I'm like, stressing about this decision so much. And then you'll jump forward in time and you'll be like, does this decision matter? And you're like, oh, like in three years from now, are you gonna be like, was that the right And you're nine times outta 10? It's like. No. Okay, so let me approach it with the, the right amount of weight.
[00:41:16] But one that you did was really talking to, you know, like the 13 or 14-year-old version of me, like really watching, uh, like feeling stuck and feeling like a burden on my family and all of that. And so the why for me was going back to that person and saying like, you can do it. And there's a clear path.
[00:41:41] That you can follow. Like not only am I confident in you to be able to do this, but there's a way, like when you understand these things about how the world works, it'll change everything.
[00:41:53] Dan: Mm.
[00:41:54] Nathan: Think about the book that I'm writing right now, right? The Ladders of Wealth is trying to answer that same thing for that 13-year-old version of me who just feels completely stuck and it's like, I don't, I don't know how this works.
[00:42:08] I feel like. How do you make money? How do you keep the money? How, like is it the job that you have, the career? Do I need to become a doctor and go to school for eight years and all of that? And what I'm trying to do is the equivalent of like give someone a diagram for powered flight, like the shape of a, of a airfoil, right?
[00:42:28] For a wing. That's one of those things that before that was known, this is impossible.
[00:42:34] Dan: Yeah.
[00:42:35] Nathan: Once that is known. Like, uh, a coworker of mine at a past company had this somewhat facetious, single page, tiny print document that sat in his cubicle and it was basically like if the world fell apart or if I went back a hundred years in time, this is everything that you need to know.
[00:42:54] And it's like germ theory and how wings are designed. You know, all of these things that once they are known, they're that it changes everything. Mm. And so I. Feel like a, a very, very strong, I, I feel a calling to lay out that path and make sure that those things are known because I, I see myself and so many other people just feeling like, you can't get out of this, and you just, you know, you, you will never be enough.
[00:43:26] You always be a burden on other people. You are, you won't be able to be in control of your circumstances, or it'll take decades. And I just wanna be like, oh. Slide the paper across the table and say, this is, this is the framework, this is the physics of money and audience and all of these things. And once you understand it, like, uh, your entire future is in your control.
[00:43:48] Dan: So what is it that you most want the 13-year-old to know?
[00:43:53] Nathan: Well, that he is, uh, capable, safe, and there's a clear path.
[00:43:57] Dan: What do you, you feel it right now? Oh, yeah.
[00:43:59] Nathan: Yeah. And, and then ultimately that. Regardless of what he feels about how he relates to other people or any of that, that he has value, like intrinsic value.
[00:44:15] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:15] Nathan: Um, and that you can create from that place, not from the place of like, how do I not be a burden on, on other people? And I think that's, uh, you know, if you go to the Enneagram, right, so much of, of a three in the Enneagram is this like, um. Like the deep longing is like to be loved and valued truly for who I am.
[00:44:35] Yeah, right. With everything else stripped away. Which is ironic because the outward side of the three, you know, you're like, how do I achieve the absolute most, be as valuable to as many people as possible. And then the thing that I want more than anything in the world is for none of that to matter. And you just love me.
[00:44:54] Dan: I get it as another three. Yes. I totally get it. Speaking of playing with time. Mm-hmm. I mean, let's bring the 13-year-old in. Mm-hmm. Like, what would he think of the Nathan who's here today?
[00:45:06] Nathan: Oh, he think it's ridiculous. I mean, we're talking about this as like kind of a, a milestone episode. The 13-year-old would be like, oh, if you could make like $50,000 a year.
[00:45:20] That would be incredible. More like, no, no, go add a handful of zeros to that. Let's go tag three more zeros on the end. And it's over 50 million now. Um, I think that that's wild. Uh, 13-year-old me loved a wood shop and tools and understood that tools were necessary for creation. Mm. And there were so many times that I'd be like, oh man, if I only had.
[00:45:49] Uh, this thing, like a friend of my dad's had a scroll saw, which is for cutting very fine, intricate things in, in woodworking, and he saw how much he bought it for a certain project. He did that project and he saw, like, I came over and borrowed it like three times and or used it as his house and he saw how much I loved that and he gave it to me and like that enabled me to do.
[00:46:12] So many different things. And so I knew the importance of tools and so thir, oh man, I'm gonna choke up on this. 13-year-old me would walk into the studio, not, he'd be impressed with my studio, the room we're recording in now and I'm quite impressed with your studio. Yeah. But he'd be more impressed with the other four studios that are open, like the tools for everybody else.
[00:46:42] And, and so it would be all about, yeah, equipping people with the tools and the training to create whatever they dream up. Mm-hmm. And so I think. Yeah, he'd be most impressed with the impact.
[00:46:57] Dan: Hmm. One of the things that I see consistently with clients driven high achievers is that they're constantly looking ahead.
[00:47:05] Mm-hmm. Yeah. We're 50 million, but I need to get the 60 million. I need to get to a hundred million. How do you think that? But the thinging that we can do by inviting the 13-year-old in is it actually helps us see where we are right now. Mm-hmm. And to really feel the impact, feel the meaning. Feel the achievement.
[00:47:21] Yeah. And to celebrate the moment we're in versus where we're trying to go. Mm-hmm. But that's a constant challenge. Constant challenge. The irony is like not looking at where we are now. We constantly feel behind.
[00:47:35] Nathan: Right?
[00:47:36] Dan: Which puts us in this space of, I gotta do more, I gotta do more, I gotta do more, I gotta do more.
[00:47:41] Which actually makes us more indecisive, makes us less confident. The 13-year-old. I mean, I just, I really appreciate that moment. I don't even care about the cameras, like, just as your friend and partner for a long time. I, I remember the 13-year-old and I know he is there on a lot of our conversations, but it was really great to hear have him come in here and help you see that too.
[00:48:05] Yeah. Especially on a milestone episode, if you will. Um,
[00:48:09] Nathan: yeah. It's something that I have to keep reminding myself to come back to when surrounding myself with people who will help me come back to that point of just like, why are we doing this? You know, I, I have a lot of people in my life and work who have been with for a very long time, so like, uh, Elizabeth, who has, has been my executive assistant for a very long time and now has moved into other roles inside of Kit.
[00:48:35] She is always the conversation we just had a few weeks ago, wa was how do we recenter the team on the mission, right? She's like, Hey, this presentation that you gave three years ago, there's now like 50 people in this company that have not seen that. It's time to give that again. And it's just, it's such an important thing.
[00:48:55] I guess we're talking about playing with time again, right? To cut through. Did we grow faster than we expected? Not as fast. Um, the conflict that we had, the, the individual decisions, and to just continually recenter on that, uh, all of that on why do we do what we do? Yeah. It was even something I realized.
[00:49:17] I don't think I do enough of this at Kit, even though I think we do a lot more of it than many other companies, but I was listening to David SRA on the Founder's podcast. Mm-hmm. Talk about James Dyson. And, you know, making this vacuum cleaner that doesn't use a peg. And it's totally different. And, you know, they're all made by huge companies than his is weird and sits on the edge.
[00:49:37] And he came back to storytelling where he got all of his, uh, all the stores that carried his vacuum cleaner to put a tag on the vacuum cleaner that told his story. Yeah. And why he invented that and like, what they were trying to do, what that means and, and everything. And 'cause that was the differentiator and I realized.
[00:49:57] That, yes, I might talk about it on a podcast sometimes, or, uh, in front of a, the team at a company retreat, but I don't have the tag hanging on every product. Hmm. To let people buy into the mission of why we're doing what we're doing, because past me would think, oh, if I did that, that would be about me.
[00:50:22] That would be me saying like, I'm the most important person. If you're going to come be a customer of ours, you should understand me and my story and you should buy because of me and all of that. Now, what I've realized is what I'd be doing in telling that story of like 13-year-old me, is that I would either be giving them something that they could relate to and they could say, oh, I wanna help other people do that.
[00:50:47] I wanna be part of a company that thinks in that way and. I understand the importance of financial freedom and laying out this path, and I want to be a part of that in some way, or
[00:51:02] they would see themselves in it.
[00:51:08] It would speak to the version of them, you know, the 13-year-old or whatever age that's inside of them right now.
[00:51:20] Either way, it would help take education and software and these like surface level things and give it real meaning. Yeah. And so then not only for myself and for our team, but also for our customers and everyone else who wants to be a part of this, they've realized like we're doing something that really, really matters.
[00:51:47] Mm.
[00:51:48] Dan: Mm-hmm. I appreciate, I mean, I didn't mean to take you there, but I feel that, you know, and lost in all this, and I know normally there's, there's frameworks and
[00:52:04] Nathan: all that,
[00:52:04] Dan: all the things we could teach, all the things you could teach, but the power in the why. Mm-hmm. It's an un unstoppable force. It's a force that connects to people at a very deep level.
[00:52:19] And like you said, some people are gonna see themselves on that and like, I have to be with this. I have to be part of this. Mm-hmm. But we avoid the feeling. The feeling is scary. We avoid the feeling. And the feeling is actually really where the energy is. Mm-hmm. Like think about how you feel about your work, your team now, right now.
[00:52:39] Oh yeah. I can see it. I can, I can feel it.
[00:52:45] Nathan: Yeah. And it's just this idea of like what you're doing matters. Yeah. And for me to be able to translate that through every aspect of what we do. You know, the other thing, the other, where I feel really privileged to work in this business, and especially this industry, is that every person that we serve is impacting.
[00:53:10] So many more at scale, right? We in our email marketing product, you know, it's like, do you have a thousand people on your list? Or 10,000 or a hundred thousand or whatever. And almost always all of those people are on that list because you as the creator are delivering some value
[00:53:31] Dan: to them. Mm-hmm.
[00:53:33] Nathan: Speaking into there.
[00:53:35] Their life, their business, their soul in some way that provides meaning. And so, you know, people talk about when is the right time to sell a company or keep going or whatever else. And I just feel insanely privileged to have ended up whether through decisions or luck, or the combination of all that in an industry that is really about impact.
[00:54:01] Hmm. That could be, you know, the kind of impact that we're having. Or, you know, a customer like Nisha Vora, who has this incredible vegan food content and she's helping people live out like their ideal lifestyle and showing them how to do it all the way through to all the authors that we know and love, who are, you know, writing books that transform people's lives, to the YouTubers, to the podcasters and everything else.
[00:54:29] And yeah, I think as we, just as we wrap up this, this uh, little 50 million celebration episode, the things that stand out to me the most are always reset around why and make sure to tell the story of the impact all the way through.
[00:54:47] Dan: That's amazing. I agree. I guess I can't help but ask what would the Nathan, in 2035, what would you like him to see and say?
[00:54:58] As you celebrate whatever that milestone may be.
[00:55:00] Nathan: Hmm. 10 years from now.
[00:55:02] Dan: Yeah. We know it won't change. Mm-hmm. The why,
[00:55:06] Nathan: the why won't change
[00:55:07] Dan: and it's evolved. It's evolved, of course. Yeah. But it's,
[00:55:10] Nathan: it's really, you know, as people have built much more valuable businesses, you know, in this space it went from, we wanna help you.
[00:55:18] Just earn a living to now, like we wanna help you have, build a valuable business around this reach and impact
[00:55:23] Dan: and less of the what and more of the who, like who, how might you be different, if at all? How is, how is Nathan showing up differently in 10 years?
[00:55:33] Nathan: I think there's so many things that would be the same of That's okay too.
[00:55:36] Continually looking at like the journey that I want to go on, who I want to do it with, and who I have to become. To achieve that, to achieve the, the ultimate goal, I think there's gonna be something that will change. Mm-hmm. Probably over 10 years is maybe the direct involvement. I think it's going to be, I, so much of what I've done early on was the impact that I can have, and there's still a lot of that.
[00:56:03] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:04] Nathan: But I, I think it something that I really wanna be celebrating in 2035 is the impact through other people.
[00:56:11] Dan: Mm-hmm.
[00:56:13] Nathan: And so I think it'll switch to like, I did this, we did this, that we're celebrating, and then others use that, those tools, those training and everything to go on, do these other things.
[00:56:24] But really, so like looking around at each of the individuals in the company or everyone else, it's just a hundred percent you did this. Hmm. And like celebrating that,
[00:56:35] Dan: that part of it. A leader is best to, when the work is done, the people will say, we did this ourselves.
[00:56:41] Nathan: Yeah. Yes.
[00:56:42] Dan: I think that's true.
[00:56:43] Nathan: Beautiful. Yeah. Dan, when I asked you to be on the show, I probably should have known that I would cry. Uh, the last eight years that we've, 78 years that we've known each other worked together have been very, very powerful for me. And so it's been a lot of fun to go through those lessons learned and recap the journey.
[00:57:06] But I think there's so much more of it that I didn't even expect, like the levels that we would, would go to. And so I'm very, very grateful for, uh, our friendship and relationship over this period of time and you coming on and helping me celebrate and then just share so many of these things that we've been able to.
[00:57:23] So I'll let you answer that. And then I wanna know where, where people should. Go to check out anything about you, get in touch with you, any of those things.
[00:57:32] Dan: I just wanna say thank you and the privilege to not only be here, but to be partner, friend on the journey with you, to know the impact you're having every day with your team and your customers.
[00:57:44] And to be a small part of supporting you is it's my why. Yeah. So thank you. Thank you for the work that you do. The work of looking within is scary and hard. Mm-hmm. But it's so critical if you're gonna be a leader and a builder. So thank you for doing that. Um. Reboot, reboot io, the company I co-founded. Uh, I have a somewhat dormant website, dan putt.com, um, and a dormant Twitter account or X account.
[00:58:13] But, uh, just Dan at Reboot is probably the easiest way to reach me if folks wanna reach me.
[00:58:18] Nathan: That sounds good. Thank you so much for coming on.
[00:58:20] Dan: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
[00:58:21] Nathan: If you enjoyed this episode, go to YouTube and search the Nathan Berry Show. Then hit subscribe and make sure to like the video and drop a comment.
[00:58:30] I'd love to hear what some of your favorite parts of the video were, and also just who else do you think we should have on the show. Thank you so much for listening.