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Social Justice - A Conversation
Announcer 0:00
You're listening to local programming produced in KU NV studios. The content
Wesley Knight 0:06
of this program does not reflect the views or opinions of 91.5 jazz and more the University of Nevada, Las Vegas, or the Board of Regents of the Nevada System of Higher Education.
Charles Stanton 0:18
Good evening. This is Professor Charles Stanton, I'm a professor of Boyd School of Law,
Blanca Pena 0:23
and my name is Blanca Pena. I am a third year law student at the Boyd School of
Charles Stanton 0:26
Law, and this is Social Justice a conversation,
Blanca Pena 0:30
a conversation.
Charles Stanton 0:33
Well, good evening, everybody. Professor Charles here, along with my partner Blanca Pena, want to welcome everybody back to the show. We're going to get get the show off, moving with talking about the arrest in England of Prince Andrew and and what relevance that has to to our country. I don't know how many people out there have are students of British history and or students of the monarchy and the British royalty. But the arrest of Prince Andrew is a monumental event in British history, if you could imagine the President of the United States being arrested, say, tomorrow. And then you could multiply that by 100 that would be the absolute social upheaval that is going on now in England, where royalty and the people of privilege have a status and a stature far beyond even the most entitled wealthy Americans. But I think, I think the monarchy, and I'm just, I'm making a surmise on this, though, I think it's, I think it's pretty accurate. I think the monarchy wants to stay the monarchy. The monarchy wants to keep that exalted position visa be the English people. And I think they reached a decision that this guy is expendable, because if we're going to, if we back him up, we're liable to go down with the ship. And the monarchy, basically is almost completely funded by the population of England, either either through the tax system or through renting properties and places to live, where basically the the royal family owns Close to close to three quarters of the land. So I just think that they realize, you know, we gotta, we gotta cut cut bait with this guy, and it's going to be interesting now, if they actually begin the criminal proceedings in in the London courts in the Old Bailey. How many other people are going to be involved in this thing, not just British royalty, but royalty from other countries that have been very closely aligned to England over a long period of time? Yeah.
Blanca Pena 3:20
I think seeing somebody in power get sort of, I mean, I still don't think he's gotten the consequences that he deserves, right, but just to see someone kick that off for the rest of the world, I really hope that triggers a domino effect, because it's about time. It's about time for people to get what they deserve for the actions that they did, and what what is in those files is is horrible. And I don't even think there are enough words to really describe just how terrible they they were, to these kids, to these women, to all of the survivors. And I don't know if you saw the the Congressman, I don't remember what state he represents, but he had gone up on a podium and said that there are literal videos of President Trump with Children Now, and I can appreciate that he is standing up there and saying these things for the public to hear, but I also wish someone could just release it. You know, I think there is way too much protection going on for this person, for President Trump. And it's, it's very disappointing. I don't know much about the monarchy. I've honestly, to be, to be quite frank, I've been looking into moving, into moving to London sometime in the future, in case I don't like living here anymore, and looking into their their court systems, and, I mean, it's very different from the one here over there, they have, like, solicitors and barristers. And I still don't know if me having to wear a wig is true or not, like, I don't know if that actually gets enforced over there, but I don't know much about that, but I do know that there is quite. Um, some weight in arresting Prince Andrew. I mean, that's,
Charles Stanton 5:05
yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's, it's, it's a momentous thing. It really is a momentous thing, because you, you not only you not only have the police department and law enforcement involved in it, there had to be some kind of a clearance from the royal family, right? I'm sure the Prime Minister and all those people in the in the government, ran it by them, and they told him basically that we have to do this. It's like a it's like a necessity. My thing is this though, my thing is this, though the law, the law, true law, is not working if you don't bring out all the evidence and then judge people involved in this on that evidence, I, as An attorney, cannot, even though I have it's more than suspicions, a pretty good idea of what happened, but for the country to survive as regarding our Constitution and our rights, we have to judge them on the evidence that would be presented. I'm right there with you, and I believe at this point, after all the things that have happened, that there's no other way to clear this up except the complete authorized access of the public through all the records, all the records redacted, as well As the witness testimony that occurred before the grand juries in the case of gislane Maxwell and in the case where he had been sent to for a small prison sentence. Jeffrey Epstein, I think all that stuff, all that stuff has to be laid out. And I think also that all the people that have been mentioned in that in those papers, have to be investigated, and they have to use the resources of our Justice Department and our FBI. And I don't think, I don't think at this point, it's a matter of choice or whim. I think it's something that really has to be it really has to be taken very seriously, to the extent, to the extent that if there's a reluctance to to do that, then I think those officials, starting from the FBI, Justice Department, what have you to be faced with impeachment actually, totally, if they, If they're, if they're not willing to do this. But it is, it is very frightening to me how you know, watching some of these hearings, it's like a circus. It has nothing to do, has nothing to do with the harm that has been visited on these innocent people. I agree. And this is, this is where I think the law, not the law, because the law is inanimate. You can do whatever you want to do with the law, but the application of the law, the mission of the law, has been, has been derailed, agreed and and now you have this case where, what, are we learning about, you know, the White House, what are we learning about all these people? Well, we're learning about it on YouTube, and we're learning about it on all these podcasts. And, you know, it's great that some of these people are doing this work, but even beyond what we do on this show, it's the job of our government. It's the job of our law enforcement, you know, associations to be doing this. Mean, you know, we can, we can figure out pretty much a lot of the things. But unless, unless all these records are brought out to everybody. And the importance to that is, the importance to that is this, that if these people are put on on trial for whatever they did with these children and young women, etc, etc, the system of justice will resonate with all the people, not just the people who are not liberal, but All of us, because everyone will see beyond a reasonable doubt what these people did and the harm that they caused, and we as a country can unify behind the idea that justice was served.
Blanca Pena 9:34
Yeah, I think the law can only take us so far. I mean, after all, the law is just a bunch of words, right, either on a piece of paper or online or in a book, right? But I think it takes humans to make it happen, to personify it, to to give meaning to it, to really uphold it. And I think right now, what we're seeing is too many people in government are focused on the wrong things, or. Are they seem lost. A lot of them. I was just right before we came on the air, I was talking about how I had seen a bench trial last week at my externship over at the public defender's office, about how this woman was charged because she defecated in a janitor's closet at a Walgreens, and it was very much a situation of necessity. And that's just one story, right? I mean, you have so many people who are currently incarcerated over very petty, minuscule, like arbitrary things, but they're in there because they don't have the same amount of power. They're in there because they don't have the money, they don't have someone that would advocate for them. It, they are. They are one of many, right? Of many common folk. I mean, I'm, I'm a common folk. It, I always think about it like this, right? It's like the course of your life can change for many reasons, but most of those reasons are for things that are out of our control. And I thought about this a lot when I had gone and seen all of the juveniles who are currently incarcerated, because a lot of them grew up in the same neighborhoods that I did. A lot of them went to the same high school that I did, right? And I mean, I'm not a perfect person. When I was a kid, I did my fair share of dumb things. I had gotten into fights, I I have shoplifted, like, like, you know, it's things where it happens to everyone. And had had things have just been slightly different for me, right? Professor, like, had, had I been caught at 711 or at Sephora or wherever, right? My life would have taken a completely different turn. Who knows if I would have even been in law school right now at this point, right? But these kids, they had different experiences. They had gotten caught, or maybe whatever it was, and now they're they're in the system, and unfortunately, the pipeline does exist. They I talked to so many attorneys who say that they met people while they were in the juvenile system, and then later on, they saw them at CCDC and the adult system, and it's very sad. So you have these people who are unfortunately victims of the system because they don't have power, because they don't have money, and in the same breath, at the same exact time, you have very powerful people. You have very rich people who can do the most atrocious of things, things that like make grabbing a candy bar from 711 look like even Jesus did it right? It's, it's horrible things that they do, and they're free, and they're out roaming the world and and worse than that, they have the power to change our lives, because they're taxing us. They're they're influencing the law, they they, they are up on this pedestal, and it's so it's such a shame, I think, for that to be allowed,
Charles Stanton 12:45
yeah, I take what you say very, very seriously, because we know, of course, that the law is not equal, and in many cases, the law is not merciful. Jefferson said, the Jefferson said that the law without mercy is a tyrant. What? What strikes me though, in this whole sad, disturbing situation, is the complete lack of any kind of accountability or remorse or self examination as to why and how you would be involved in something like this. And you know, it's not just it's not just some of the people who we've already heard about. Apparently, it's all through academia, people who are trying to get money for their school. They wanted donations, or people like Woody Allen, who were trying to get their children into different universities and stuff like that. And I think, I think that the problem that you have, and I've said this before, as you know, we suffer in our country from a lack of belief. We suffer in our country because we don't have people who have deeply held beliefs that they will uphold, not merely, not merely people on the Supreme Court or the Congress or the Senate or the House of Representatives, or even the president, but, but just people who basically are supposed to be leaders of our country, people in business, people in social media, people in Hollywood, wherever they come from, and they're good with so many things that you just shake your head and say, What is that about people who have had there's this thing now about this gentleman, Casey Wasserman, that owns a big talent agency out in Hollywood, and his grandfather, who really became his father in many ways. He. Lou Wasserman was one of the giants of Hollywood, and he founded MCA, which became Universal Pictures, which became, you know, this, this giant company. And he was, he was a, he was a businessman, and he was, you know, he had his, he has many faults. But I couldn't, I couldn't imagine a man like that, knowing what I know of him, that he would have ever been involved in something like this. And here you have and here you have the grandson, and he's like, he's like, with with Epstein, like, this guy is his best friend. And you know, you have to know something about the people you hang out with, and the people who are the elite people know who certain people are because they only associate with a certain group of people. You have to be screened, basically. And then you have people like, they're going to his they're going to his house, you know, Steve Bannon, okay, Steve bannon's in politics. Okay, so he's a politician, and he's but he's like, he's basically scripting what Jeffrey Epstein would say about all the things that he's coaching. I mean, coaching, how would you how would you be coaching somebody who's been involved in all this harm, and they doesn't seem to be the victims seem to be forgotten. The victims are forgotten, just like we've seen in the past, where you have these, these crimes against women, where you have men like Harvey Weinstein, and they do this stuff for years and years and years, and they have to, they have to, like, validate themselves to some standard, right? So somebody who's a who's a who's a serial abuser can even get a slap on the wrist, if that for what they were doing. You know, when we had, we had done that movie, she said in the class, and what about all the, what about all the women's careers who were ruined by this man, you know, for speaking out, for speaking out, and yet, and yet, that's what we're supposed to stand for, exactly. That's what the country is supposed to be about, that you, you have a voice, and that you, you try to, try to, you know, be heard, I think at this point now, to be, to be very, to be very blunt with you, I think there needs to be over an overhaul, a whole system. Yeah, I think it goes beyond just this one case. I think it's, it's, it's the people in the Congress, the people in the courts. I mean, this is not sustaining. I mean, they are not, they are not serving us right?
Blanca Pena 17:44
And for a long time, they didn't serve a lot of group of people, you know it, I don't think it ever really was supposed to be this way in it, and it was. And I agree with you about what you say about the survivors and how they need to, almost like work over time, to seem credible, to look credible, and even after that, they're it's almost like they're screaming and no one's listening, and they try to come back to their normal lives. But even that has been changed or destroyed, or whatever it was, and it seems at this point as if the priorities are all over the place, because you have someone like Donald Trump talking about make America safe again and and he goes on these rampages about criminals and immigrants and things like that. And it's like, can have you seen yourself in the mirror late like, like, is there? Where is the disconnect? I am so confused and I'm more angry more than anything, because it's straight up hypocrisy. They don't think the law applies to them. They they do it in every which way, right? Even even with the money stuff, the way that they evade taxes and how they grow their wealth, and the ways that normal people just can't and don't. Everything in combination, is, is very, very disappointing to see. And I think it's, it's very inconsistent across the board. I mean, I don't even know how else to explain it. I think if you're, if you're a very well off rich man, you can pretty much get away with with a lot. And it's, it's kind of like the conversations that we have about immigrants, right, about how people like to justify immigrants being here because they're quote, unquote so hard working and they help the economy. Well, immigrants are more than that first of all. And I, I really don't like that. We have to give value to people based off of how productive they are and based off how much they contribute to society. That's just not that's just not how it works. That's not how it should work, having to work overtime to make these people even seem human and and things like that. And that's just not okay. Yeah. It's not okay. And the amount of times that I've heard different groups of men say, Well, you know, there's got to be consequences for women who say false claims about men, it's like, Well, how about let's, let's address the reason why these things are happening. And if you're so angry about a potential liar, right, but you're not upset about a potential rapist. I think we really need to look at the scales and see what is heavier than the other. Because I would much rather be wrong about a woman like possibly lying like I'd rather be I'd rather believe a woman who could possibly be a liar than believe a man who could possibly be a rapist, and it goes vice versa, right? A man who is a liar, a woman who's a rapist. I would much rather side with someone who is potentially something a lot less worse than than the other.
Charles Stanton 20:50
Well, I'll say, I'll say this. I'll say this, speaking as a man. Okay, don't make me laugh. Now I'm gonna put it. I'm gonna put it this way, worked in the worked in the justice system for a number of years, and then obviously, you know, I'm here, yes, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that there aren't women who lied or misrepresented a case of sexual misconduct. I'm sure there are. That's just, would be the law of averages. But what I will say, from my experience and my knowledge and what I've seen, the vast, vast, vast majority of those claims are verifiable and justifiable. I don't think in my experience it would the misuse of the justice system would be an exception, rather than a rule, that most, the vast majority of those situations are valid. The tragedy, of course, is that the law has been broken. Somebody has been harmed, but the system that's supposed to endow them and help them and allow them to present those charges to supposedly a justice system that's impartial has completely failed. So when the woman goes to the police, not all the time, but many, many, many times. They're not believed. They're questioned. The scales are turned. So when these charges are made, there's like this impossible system of proof that has to be thrown at the woman to come up with so many different proofs to eventually even try to get the case to go to court, no less be tried before a jury. I think, above all this, though, if we're talking about, you know what you've been saying about women who have been assaulted, and many who I've you know worked with in my time? Yeah, I think there's a I think society to to survive and to to function and to continue, if you do not have a society that protects people who have been harmed, but have a society that questions and tries to undermine people who have been harmed and not allow people who have been harmed to have a voice and to do everything that you can can do to try to find the truth of what happened. Then my only conclusion can come as as as a man, a man of, you know, mixed background, a man of who believes in God, to me, that's a non functioning society. I think our society is not functioning properly because at its heart the protection of the harm, the protection of the innocent, the protection of those who whose only crime was either their gender or their age, cannot be, cannot be, in any way supported or defended. The fact that our government and our and our social institutions have failed so abominably reflects, really, ultimately, on all of us totally. It's not merely, it's not merely, you know, the people in Washington. It's not merely the lobbies. It's not merely the people in, you know, in K Street or the people in Hollywood. It's a societal acceptance or inattention or disregard, or what have you as to what's actually going on in our country and the seminal issue of protection of women, of children, of people of color, of minority, people, where people will come from. You know, foreign lands is the ultimate. Is the ultimate respect that should be, that should be afforded to everyone. Yeah, and if we. If we have a have a problem with that, then there's something really far deeper that's going on, that's that's really, as you've been alluding to when you in the time that we've been doing the shows together, there's some, there's some dysfunction there, yeah. But not, not just dysfunction, I think, a kind of a kind of moral apathy, where we see things that we know are wrong and indecent and terrible, and we can just go with it.
Blanca Pena 25:32
I think that's a result of the human psychology. I think I I read about this, I'm not 100% sure that it's totally true, but I think there is some truth to it about how, since Trump took office in 2016 I forgot one of his Cabinet members names, but he started the whole system of flooding the zone right with with news and headlines and this and that and and I think since that, since 2017 and 2016 we know whenever he really took off, I think we've all just been bombarded with so much news just over the years, every day I remember, I remember thinking how politics used to be so quiet. I to me at least, and maybe it's because of my age, right? Because when Trump took office, I was 1516, something like that, so I wasn't super aware before that. But even when, even when Biden was in office, I remember politics being just a little bit more quiet, but it feels like utter chaos. It's almost like, it's almost like a toxic relationship, right? Where, where you become numb to your abuser, because your abuser is constantly taunting you or antagonizing you, and you become very numb to the point where you don't even realize just how bad it got throughout the course of the relationship. It's things that you would have never tolerated in the beginning, but because it's happened so often, now you're you just accept it. And I think that that's the reason why we see these news come out. I mean, we were talking about this earlier, about how the Supreme Court shut down the tariffs, and now we're left to wonder where, where did, where did all that money come from? And the, you know, all of the households in America had to pay about the $1,000 or something like that per or more. And now, now we're here, but it's, it's almost like it's an accumulation of everything, because we just heard that Donald Trump is in these videos with these young children, and then the tariff stuff, and then I bet in that video that he posted on truth social about the Obamas, like that really horrible racist video. There is so much going on, and I think people are desperately I want to give people the benefit of the doubt. That's That's my thing, too. It's like I want to become a public defender or a criminal defense attorney, because I like to give people the benefit of the doubt, and in the same breath, give that same benefit that I would give to my clients to potential victims, right? And that's why it's important to bring in all the evidence and not necessarily question the victims, but really inquire as to what the evidence is. And so in giving giving that benefit of the doubt to people, I would like to think that most people do not like Donald Trump, but they do not like what's going on. They do not like these ICE raids. They don't like it, any of it, but I think a lot of people just really desperately want to survive, and I think they want to just pay their bills and be there for their family and have a semi stable livelihood that that almost Trumps what we No no pun intended, that almost Trumps our need to really organize and do something that will do that cause, that overhaul that we so desperately need. Yeah, well,
Charles Stanton 28:44
I'm gonna, I'm gonna close out our show for tonight. I'm just gonna say this, though I completely agree with what you're saying. I think, I think it's, I think at this point, it's a choice. We have a choice, as citizens of our country, we can continue to go along with the reality show that's been playing for a number of years while our democracy erodes and eventually will crumble. Or we can say, you know, there are certain basic rights, values, certain practices that we as functioning human beings now looking down on other people because of their race, ethnicity, gender, what have you that we have to uphold, and unless we we don't get, we don't get really seriously about doing those things and having that empathy, we're going to be in big trouble. So on those, on those sobering words I will say good night to you.
Blanca Pena 29:43
Thank you all. Good night you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai