Words of Radiance Part 4 - Brandon Sanderson - Fantasy Book - Progression Fantasy Book

Hey, Adventures, we are still on Roshar, discussing Words of Radiance. In this episode of the Side Quest Podcast, Slava and Jonathan continue to explore the world of The Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson. This is part 4 of 10 of our coverage of the second book in the Stormlight Archives. This week's discussion highlights Sanderson's effective storytelling techniques, particularly in revealing information through character interactions and maintaining tension in the narrative. The guys also delve into the complexities of character development and plot progression in the Cosmere universe, focusing on key figures like Chalon, Dalinar, Shalon, Kaladin, and Renarin. 

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(00:00) Intro
(01:30) Exploring Eshenai's Transformation
(06:09) The Nature of the Stormfather
(12:36) Kaladin's Mentor: Xyle
(16:04) The Heralds and Taln's Oath
(21:01) Eshenai's New Powers and Cultural Significance
(28:34) Chapter 35: The Multiplied Strain of Simultaneous Infusion
(35:47) Chapter 36: A New Woman
(49:39) Chapter 37: A Matter of Perspective
(55:21) Chapter 38: The Silent Storm
(01:00:29) Chalon's Transformation and Inner Struggles
(01:01:10) Dalinar's Leadership Challenges
(01:02:40) Shalon's Family Dynamics and Past
(01:06:14) Sbariel's Merchant Strategies
(01:09:09) Kaladin's Leadership and Training
(01:12:22) Renarin's Journey with Bridge 4
(01:15:38) Shalon's Double Life and Infiltration
(01:18:51) The Ghost Bloods and Shalon's Mission

Creators and Guests

Host

Jonathan

Host

Slava

What is The Side Quest Book Club Podcast?

Join Slava and Jonathan as they discuss the books they are reading. Explore world-building, characters, and story development—and share some laughs along the way. Side Quest Book Club — a literary adventure podcast.

JONATHAN (00:12.814)
Good afternoon and good night, wherever you're tuning in. We are Slava and Jonathan, bringing you the SideQuest podcast, where we talk about character development, stories, and all things that are world building. And we occasionally take SideQuests, because frankly, that's how conversations work. Just as a reminder, this whole show is spoiler heavy. So sit back, tune in, and join us on this episode of SideQuest.

JONATHAN (00:45.582)
Good morning, Slava.

Good morning, Jonathan. How are

you on this fine high storm day.

I am doing exceptionally well considering the high storm.

Exceptionally well. Hopefully you're a rider of storms. As you all know, we're back on Roshar today discussing interludes five, six, seven, and eight. So four interludes and then chapters 35 through 42, 43. We like 43, so we might just add it in. Originally, it was just going to be 42, 12 chapters today, but we might toss it in there. So 42, 43. If you're new here, be sure to hit that subscribe button so that you never miss a podcast.

JONATHAN (01:24.686)
and we're reading Sanderson's Words of Radiance. Slava, over to you.

that we are. I say we just dive into it. Most people who are here know who Sanderson is, know the book we're on. So, Riders of Storms, Interlude 5. As a high storm approaches the city of Narak, Thud reports to Eshenai that they have a meeting in seven days with the Lethe and that he didn't see either Dalinar or the Surgebinder when he arranged the meeting. Eshenai attunes resolve.

and brings her captive Spren to the high storm to transform. Eshenai stands in the storm with the shield braced against a rock to protect her from the winds to face the Stormfather head on rather than sheltering in the rocks. The wind blows her shield away leaving her exposed, though she is able to hold on to some rocks from being blown away. The eye of the storm reaches her and the Stormfather

asks if this is really what she wants. The red spren breaks free from its crystal and shoots out red lightning. Eshenai has a bad premonition and says no and tries to elude the spren, but it hits her in the chest, shooting out red tendrils. The Stormfather says that this was inevitable, he cannot protect Eshenai and he is sorry. Eshenai begins to transform

into war form.

JONATHAN (02:57.688)
So when you were reading this about this red spren being set free, did you have any initial thoughts on that? And then I've got a question about the Stormfather.

I had some questions about it because the spren is encapsulated in something. It's not free flowing like sill or pattern or the other spren that show up like pain spren, shame spren. I really didn't give it too much thought, but a question popped in my head as I was reading it, listening to it. Why is the percentis spren encapsulated or this particular percentis? But then I moved on. Are you telling me there's something special about?

it being in a capsule or it being somehow in prison.

Yeah, a couple things on that. know for the readers, Slava's actually currently meeting risk. Yeah, a couple things on that. Slava's actually currently meeting. Did you give me alcohol this morning? I believe that you might have. Yes.

I didn't. Wife probably poisoned you. Have you been feeling weaker and weaker?

JONATHAN (04:02.112)
On a one year anniversary, no less. Jokes on her, we don't have life insurance. It's just out of sheer spite.

For the readers, nope.

For the listeners, Slava is currently reading Mistborn and to answer your question about trapped spren, some of Mistborn's magic system translates over to Roshar and I'll just leave it at that. Slava actually hates Mistborn right now. Let's just call it what it is. He's been complaining to Spencer and I about that. It's not, yeah, it's not the level of hate that I have for City in the City.

It's a mild hit.

JONATHAN (04:47.383)
I actually don't even think it's hate. think you're just bo- It's just boredom.

Yeah, no, that's exactly it. I'm not in tune, pun intended, with the characters as I am with the Stormlight characters. Even though, and we discussed this before the recording started, even though I understand where they're going, I understand their wants and needs, motivations, some of the complaints you had about other books who showed this poorly, Sanderson's early writing, this is Miss Bourne, his second published book, I'm not faulting him for any of-

for any of his writing, lack of writing chops, because he has chops even here. So this is early in his writing, I'm not faulting him for this being an early book. That's not what's making me bored. To the point, again, I understand where the characters are going. It's an interesting story. It's an interesting magic system, but something about it, I'm not enthralled the story as much as I am with.

Not vibin'.

Stormlight Archives as much as I was with the short story that we read, and Warbreaker. So, for some reason, don't hate me, audience, I'm just not vibing.

JONATHAN (05:57.868)
Not vibing. Anyway, that's all I'll mention in terms of like, this specific trap spren doesn't have anything to do with Mistborn, but some trap spren do.

Why?

JONATHAN (06:13.464)
She didn't. I believe so. I might be misremembering. But anyway, I think your better question is why did she let it out? And then the answer we get is like, well, she wanted to bring back the old gods. And this is the point that I was going to make is the council at Narok of the Parshendi said, we don't want to bring back the old forms because it also brings back our old gods.

So she was given a trapped spren.

SLAVA (06:39.978)
Right, that's why they killed Gavilar. And now they're bringing them back anyway.

Right. That brings us to question of like, is that the real reason they killed Gavilar?

That's the reason they gave. And if you read the prelude to Oathbringer, that's the reason they give Jasna and the internal dialogue that we have with the Prashendi that's talking to Gavilar, that's the reason she has in her head that this can't happen. Right. Now there might be more to it, but that is part of the reason. Whether it's only a sliver of the reason, it's not a lie.

That is

JONATHAN (07:15.692)
Yeah. Well, and then, you know, you've got some zoos, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. So they say, we don't want this to come back, to kill Gavilar. It incites this entire story. And now they're to the point where the humans are just offing them in a full on, you know, Holocaust basically. And not exactly, it's more of a genocide, but anyway. Yeah. And so now they're backed against a wall in terms of Eshenai's opinion.

Tera Patato.

JONATHAN (07:45.25)
where they break open this spren who promises to bring them war form. So that's one thing. The other thing that I was going to mention is Stormfather. What's your take on this character, the Stormfather? He says what's happening is inevitable. We also know the Stormfather's talking to Dalinar, giving him visions. Like where's Slava's mind at in terms of like who is the Stormfather? What's he doing? What does the Stormfather want? Is he for the humans? Is he against the Parshendi?

Is he neutral? Is he got his own goals?

Well, he definitely has his own goals. Who's the Storm Father? We haven't even talked about, and I haven't even thought through that question. He's the Storm Father. He is a God. If there's a hierarchy to gods here and given Sanderson's Mormon roots, there might be him pulling out some Mormon theology and applying it here in a very loose way. So he is in a hierarchy of gods. He's a God of this planet, at the very least.

The I see it, the questions that you asked that I thought about was what does he want and is he neutral? I don't think he's neutral. I think if neutrality is going to be brought into it, he is maybe indifferent and he has a goal. That's the second part or one of your questions out of the four. think you just, positive to me. So he does have goals and I think he's indifferent to.

SLAVA (09:45.198)
because whatever the Preshendi are doing are in line with his goals. Not necessarily that he prefers the Preshendi, but whatever Eshenai is doing is in line, or she's doing quote unquote the right thing, and what's going to happen, whether that's to her specifically, or to the Preshendi in general, or the whole planet, because of what's going on here, I think he says sorry, because that's not what he desires for these people, this planet. That's the best way I can answer it based on.

everything I read so far because I am distracted by Mistborn I can't read Oathbringer.

You make it sound like I'm parenting you and you're a bad child and I put you in a corner. What a sad life you lead.

Yeah. Now I don't think it's, I don't think it's that bad, but I don't want to make this episode about how much I'm bored by Mistborn. Sorry, Mistborn fans. It's taken me away from reading Oathbringer, which I was so excited. I got past the prologue. I stopped because our recording of Oathbringer is going to be pretty far into the future. So I'm like, well, I can put this off. And then you're like, well, you want to read more? Here, read this instead. And in the back of my mind, maybe this is the child.

Maybe you're right about the child analogy because I'm kind of like a kid going, want to read Oathbringer, but I got to do this thing. Anyway, that's my ideas, my thoughts, questions, ponderings and storm father. You tell me my correct, am I wrong? Am I somewhere in the middle?

JONATHAN (11:14.314)
We're going to continue to get to know the Stormfather over the course of these books. I was just wondering what your take was on him because currently we're just kind of getting to know him. We see him on both sides of the fence. And something that I didn't think about the first time that I read this was he is conversing with everyone. Yeah. Yes.

Well he's God. For the God of this planet.

far as we understand it, yeah. Who is he talking to that we're not aware of? Because like if he's talking to both the parchaenity and the humans, he could be talking to anyone. He could have been talking to Jasnah. He could be talking to, well, he's not talking to Kaladin because we have his point of view. He could be talking to Renarin. He could be talking to Rok. He could be talking to Sadius. Like he could be talking to anybody.

I don't think he is. could be, but he does talk to Kaladin. He admonishes Kaladin for killing Sil.

It kind of monoshes is probably too kind of a word. I would say he, he scolds. not as cold as hard enough. Anyway, yes, yes. He does talk to him. that was a bad anyway, you get what I mean. So moving forward in only six, we are on Xyle a, a favorite old new character, right? Xyle wakes up.

JONATHAN (12:36.736)
Suddenly as his life sense alerts him to someone approaching he opens the door feeling the aftermath of the high storm as Kaladin is about to knock and I'll comments on how bad Kaladin looks which is you know Kaladin's favorite compliment that and You look depressed you feel depressed you are depressed Yeah

Yep.

JONATHAN (13:04.45)
Kaladin explains that he just stopped an assassination attempt with Alucar. A couple hours previously, Kaladin asks if Za'el's offer to train him is still open. And Za'el says no. And Kaladin's like, of like, all right then I'll figure it out myself. And Za'el realizes that Kaladin being the young, I think he's 19 currently, which he feels older, right? Like that's just, that's the depression talking.

and it says, was like, there's two men who live in this room when he realizes Caledon doesn't get it and doesn't want to give a clear answer. There's the grumpy old man that is woken up at the middle of the night. He doesn't like you. He doesn't like anyone go away. And then there's the somewhat malleable and compassionate, but curmudgeony. wish he said Sanderson wrote it so much better, but I'm giving the overview, right? He, who has a soft spot for.

grumpy Bridgman or whatever he says and Calladon goes, okay, I'll come back in the morning or whatever he says.

Well, let's read the quote. I'll bring up the Kindle book and I will read the quote. Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.

JONATHAN (14:29.622)
Anyway, Xyle for those who haven't put it together is actually Vashier from Warbreaker. And the reason we know this is because he uses analogies from, my gosh, what's the name of the planet? It's not Threnody, it's not Skadril, it's not Cell. Nalthis, Nalthis, I'm getting rusty here. Nalthis, the world of...

The court of gods looked over by the shard endowment.

So, Xyle, Vashier, here's what he says, kid, Xyle said, turning his back towards him, two people live in this room. The boy frowned, looking at the single cot. First, Xyle said, is a grouchy swordsman who has a soft spot for kids who aren't over their heads. He comes out by day. The other is a very, very grouchy swordsman who finds everything and everyone

utterly contemptible. He comes out when some fool wakes him at a horrid hour of the night. I suggest you ask the first man and not the second. Alright?

Xyle.

SLAVA (15:47.468)
Yeah. yeah.

And so Kaladin leaves, finally picking up a mentor for however long this will last in Kaladin's morose existence.

his ever morose existence.

Yes. Next up we have interlude seven about Taln. And for those who know Taln never broke. Do know what that means Lava?

yeah. He...

SLAVA (16:20.363)
Never broke.

JONATHAN (16:27.362)
All right, great. So in this interlude, Borden speaks with Elikar and Dalinar of his journey with wit to transport the seemingly mundane man, or sorry, seemingly madman to the Shattered Plains. As the madman listens on and thinks of various torments that he's undergone, the madman identifies himself as Telenanel E. Lynn, herald of war, and speaks of the desolations wiping out past knowledge.

and of other heralds helping to prepare the world for the time of the returns and the desolations. Though his audience can barely understand him since he is speaking inaudibly with a northern Alethi accent, Borden says the madman just dropped his shard blade and that his eyes were always dark. Borden suggests sending the madman to the Ardents to take care of him. The madman comments that the coming days will be difficult, but humanity will survive and that he must be brought to their leaders.

Dalinar says that he has a use for the Shroudblade and Borden's assistance as well. The madman comments that he thinks he is too late this time and asks himself how long it had been. You think this guy's really a herald?

Sure, why not? The real question is why he never broke. What broke means, because you asked me and well, I know what the actual

You know, the sentence, right, yeah, yeah. But not in terms of Stormtrooper.

SLAVA (17:53.954)
Right, so he's being interrogated, he's being tortured, he never breaks. What that means, I wish I knew if I could read the rest of the Stronglight archives.

Salty much? Anyway, so, all right, so, do you, let's pause for a second. Do know who the Heralds are?

Well, yeah, we meet them in the first part of Stormlight archives. We meet them in the Way of Kings in the Prelude. They're described as these heralds who are protectors. Desolation comes, they protect the people during the desolation and they all abandon their oaths. Except for Talon. He never broke.

Except for Tallon. Tall never broke.

He never broke his oath. That's what that means. So the heralds made what's called the oath pact to prevent the void bringers from returning. Part of that includes them holding, going to braze, which is like the equivalent of hell on Roshar, like the place hell and holding back the beings there, the void bringers from coming back to destroy humanity with the desolations, which is why it's called the return.

JONATHAN (19:05.996)
and the desolations. So if this guy's a herald, which you believe he is, Tal never broke. He never broke the oath pact. So part of this larger story is understanding is this guy really a herald? What was the oath pact for? What was it doing? And this is like part of the overarching story that's going on. Another thing as a reminder for the audience is at the end of Way of Kings, we see this madman show up.

to wit at the end and he's muttering to himself and he drops his shard blade and then the book ends, right? Something like that. Which is where this reference comes of like, know, Borden works with wit to transport him to the shattered plains. And yeah, he may be a herald, he may not.

Why wouldn't he be a Herald?

Cause he's a madman.

mean anything. If Talon is the one who didn't break and the other heralds broke and he's a herald, there wouldn't be a mention about him not breaking. He's just a random madman.

JONATHAN (20:13.934)
That's my color commentary about Talon, the real Talon, whoever he is, the real Talon didn't break.

So this is an imposter.

This man is mad. So that's.

So he's not the real Talon and Jasna's dead. right, so he's not the real Talon then. If Jasna's dead, then he's not the real Talon.

Correct, Yosin.

JONATHAN (20:32.544)
Okay, don't play your little games with me.

okay. Anyway, moving on to interlude eight, a form of power. We're back with Eshenai. She returns after the high storm to Narok to a large crowd curious about her transformation. Eshenai feels energetic as she sees tiny red lightning bolts when she flexes her fist.

and has lost her bulky war form in favor of small ridges in her skin. She is able to leap a chasm by crouching and throwing herself in the air with less effort than war form required. Thude confronts her, saying her eyes are red, which is something referenced in the songs, but Eshenai cuts him off. Vanille approaches and is told that the storm form

That's what I meant when I said war form before, but the storm form, that she can move in the high storm unimpeded and that she can feel a storm building beyond the rhythms, a high storm that they can guide to use against their enemies. Esh and I addresses the crowd saying that she saw the betrayal in the storm rider's eyes and that he attends to help humans against the preshendi.

I knew that.

SLAVA (21:59.384)
but they can now fight back using this new form and the crowd hums, and appreciation. Esh and I glories in a praise, but a voice inside her screams in horror. Before we get to that, I really want to talk about the way Prashendi speak in song and rhythm. Yeah. I thought that is fantastic. That's a very unique way of, well, it's a unique way.

What do think that voice is?

SLAVA (22:28.696)
but it's a unique ability that Brannison gives to the Prescendi, a unique cultural ability, unique personal ability. It's a whole thing where they don't speak like normal, quote unquote, people. They speak in a cadence and they sing and their songs tell stories rather than, know, tones of books. So I thought that was just a cool thing that's not standard in a lot of books.

Yeah, it does something that people applaud Tolkien for doing, which is creating multiple languages for his world without having to go through the work. And this is not a slight against Sanderson at all. It's actually kind of genius giving them a language without having to spell out these are how nouns work. This is how sentence structure work, right? Like it's just built in and believable because we've all heard music before.

Yeah. And we've seen cultures here on earth that use song to tell stories. I mean, every song is a story, but not every culture incorporates song so deeply into their cultural expressions as others, right? Right. And he or Prashendi are those others.

Quick side quest, quick verbal side quest, not an actual side quest, although we should take one of those here in a second. So I'll leave that on you while I banter about my evening last night. We just watched A Complete Unknown, the Bob Dylan biopic, and I commented to my wife. was like, and so quick thing for the audience, Slava and I used to know a guy who like big Dylan fan was a fatherish, mentorish figure in our community that we were in.

living in the big city, went to a bunch of his concerts, followed along as Dylan went through like the Jesus People movement a little bit, the controversies that came up, the politicizing of him, et cetera, et Anyway, watching this movie and I commented to my wife, like, they don't make music the way that they used to. And she's like, you are not 80 years old, calm down. I was like, no, they don't. Like there's something, there's something just like simple and fun about Dylan's poetry set to music, right? Like, and.

JONATHAN (24:41.09)
The moments that are covered in the biopic are, there's one particular moment at the end of the movie where he's at the Newport Folk Festival where he just kind of like erupts and like breaks their tradition. These key moments just don't happen anymore in society really because, well, this is my commentary, my color commentary on that. These things don't happen anymore because we are on a star-based system instead of bands. Now Dylan wasn't a band, but wasn't like a band. He was an entity like a star.

But we just like with the internet and everyone getting too much information too quickly, there's no way to create key events like this anymore outside of the, let's call it the rioting and stuff that we've seen in the last couple of years, at least here in America. And then big things on the news where it's like, it's all protests and war and things like that. The music doesn't necessarily represent the culture anymore the way that it used to, I guess is the simple version.

So anyway, that's my little color commentary on music and culture.

Before we get in that side quest, let's quickly answer your question. said, what is the voice inside her? Who is the voice inside Eshenai that is screaming in horror? Could it be her spren? Could be. They have melded together and the spren doesn't understand what's going on or maybe understands too much, understands enough and is screaming in horror. It's a new prison for the spren. Could be. Okay. So side quest.

Jonathan, if you could stand in the high storm and unlock a storm form style power, knowing that it might change something fundamental about your personality and or body, would you do it? And what would your new powers and side effects be?

JONATHAN (26:31.598)
100 % do that. And with something with the name of Stormform, I would assume that I can shoot lightning out. I would assume that it comes with maybe the ability to control the elements of sorts, or at least elements that are related to storms. Maybe I can put clouds above people's heads and have it rain on them. Simply for sheer enjoyment, I would do that.

If someone starts brooding, I'll just put a little cloud above their head and go, what's going on, guys? holy moly. And then make it seem like that one person has a power instead of me.

Thank you.

And then of course I'd probably not know how to use it correctly and might accidentally kill them because of the lightning that strikes them. But you know, we'll deal with that when the time comes. What about the

100 % walking in that storm. No hesitation. And my power would be narrative manipulation or song manipulation. I can literally rewrite what's happening around me. Like I'm editing a book, like Dr. Strange. So Jonathan is mid-monologue about blah, blah, blah. Mr. Born is the greatest book in the world. Boom, cuts to one of our, you know, calls to actions.

SLAVA (27:56.398)
I've got my fingers and suddenly I'm the main character.

All right, he's not listening to me at the moment. Thanks for joining us today, audience, on today's side quest, where Slava ignores everything I have to say when it doesn't agree with his point of view, which is basically just like every other episode.

Touche.

Be sure to drop us a rating and help us spread the word if you're enjoying today's sidequest.

And that brings us to part three, deadly, which starts off with chapter 35, the multiplied strain of simultaneous infusion. You want to take it away?

JONATHAN (28:34.326)
Yes. Quite the, quite the title of the chapter. just one more, like, this is how my brain works. We watched another trailer when deciding on a movie last night for, the biopic about Freddie Mercury, which I can't remember that, Bohemian Rhapsody, that was what it's called. And, so when you were like mentioning Narok, I was thinking, do dooch, do dooch. We will, we will Narok you. Anyway.

Welcome to my brain, folks. I enjoyed that. You still have a staring at me like I've drunk a full bottle of whiskey, but cool story, Great. Don't say anything. Literally no response. This is a really awesome episode.

That's funny.

JONATHAN (29:26.594)
Chapter 35, Adolin paces around about on the plateau wearing shardplate. Dwelling on the assassination that took place the evening before, Adolin tries practicing his shardblade throws, but loses focus since he didn't get much sleep because he was guarding his father's quarters last night, thinking that Zeth might come back. Adolin thinks that his three Bridgman guards are useless, classic light eyes, but reflects that Kaladin was unusually effective in his protecting of Dalinar.

though he also is very unlikable and strange. Also very light-eyes to say, not just light-eyes, but specifically about Kaladin because, you Kaladin. And I'm excited for this to happen. I can't wait for, I think it's the next section, where Kaladin has a great one-liner that's coming up. And I know that this is spoiler heavy show, but I don't want to ruin it for the audience because I just want to savor the moment. Anyway.

That's fair.

JONATHAN (30:23.926)
Adolin succeeds at throwing his shardblade and returns to the war camp with his bodyguards, who are useless, and notices a procession of soul casters that usually aren't seen during the daytime. Adolin converses with the main ardent soul caster, Kadesh, and learns that their services are in high demand and that they will have to increase their training and work shifts. Adolin watches as a group of soul casters working behind him.

working behind a silk screen for concealment, used their Fabriels in concert to create a strong windbreak. Adolin questions K'Dosh about the old radiance and K'Dosh answers non-committally at first until Adolin expresses that he needs information urgently due to the fact of the assassination had a radiant-like abilities and K'Dosh then agrees to do the research for Adolin. Navani is standing and observing

as she has a platform in the engineering grounds and supervises an experiment used of Fabriels. And this is going to give us more, Navani is going to give us a lot more information in book four about Fabriels and her discoveries of them. But one of the fun things that happens in these books is Sanderson shows us how the technology is improving over time and also doesn't just give us like, this is how it works. He lets the characters.

fiddle with it and finagle it and try and figure out how it works, which is adds to the realism, right? After extensive preparations, the careful implementation and their attempt to cause a round wooden parapet to float in the air without support succeeds. Abel and joins Devani and they talk in private and Devani explains in technical terms, and this is how Sanderson reveals these things to us, because he allows someone to explain something for us.

without being full exposition because usually the other character who's listening, i.e. the audience, interrupts and goes, I don't care about that, but he has revealed something in those moments to us, albeit in quick quips. And then he usually shows us the thing as well.

SLAVA (32:35.288)
It's not clunky exposition or just an exposition dump where you have two pages of...

Let's the story. Exactly. Yeah. Let me pause the story and tell you exactly how this magic system was built in my mind, which as younger writers, and I don't mind wearing this hat. I've done because you're like, you're so excited about the magic system. You want to tell them all about it, but that removes the ability to have tension. She's where Sanderson comes up with his three laws, which I believe we spoke about in war breaker. We have to guest episode. Yeah.

Yeah, which

SLAVA (33:06.808)
We certainly did.

And like one of his things is the audience is, and I'm going to just paraphrase this thing, the audience gets enjoyment based on the level of understanding of the magic system that they have, which then helps the characters get out of said problems, right? So anyway, I kind of slaughtered that, but Aelon looking at the thing that Navati created talks about the military application and I'm honestly like, well, there's actually more practical applications for it. Then Aelon confronts his aunt.

Navani about her relationship with his father and the aqua position that his father's in regarding social customs and violating them. And he lectures her over the other high princes and she scoffs at those traditions and tells Adolin that he is free of his betrothal for the time being due to Yosna's disappearance. And Adolin and Navani leave for a meeting with Dalinar and Elikar. As we can see, Navani is in denial about her daughter's death.

Right. I'm sort of surprised. Maybe I shouldn't be. Tell me if I shouldn't be. My last little conservative diatribe here.

Why does that surprise you?

SLAVA (34:16.919)
He doesn't seem like the type that would make such a big deal about it.

Adolin cares enough about the... So Dalinar's Adolin's father, right? He's been required to follow the codes for a while now. He's grown up with his uncle and his father being warlords, bloody warlords at that, and his mother's dead in a way that we don't know how. His father's all they have left, and Adolin has always wanted to impress his father by being a good soldier.

Part of that is following the ways of the societal norms and blah, blah. But to your point, Adolin stands out and we see when we first meet him in Way of Kings that he helps a dark-eyed whore, right? Defense for against normal light-eyes behavior from Sadius's army. So I understand your comment, but because it puts him in a weird position.

he doesn't want to be in a weird position because it's not just his father, it's also him and his house. It makes a little more sense. Also, she's family, so I think he feels more comfortable calling her out. You know, I guess I'll tell you, 40%, you're right. Like, it is a little weird, but also he's in a weird predicament, too.

Fair enough. enough. To your point earlier, this is just mostly exposition about this new thing that's happening, not action heavy. So moving on to chapter 36.

JONATHAN (35:47.854)
No, it's more reflective. Yeah, it's more reflective for both Adolin and Navani and giving us those human moments, right? Where it's like, and in terms of like written storytelling, we have these interludes and this is like the beginning of part three. And so like just talking story for a second. In chapter 34, blossoms and cake, we see some tension, some rising tension with Shalon and...

with the fight that she had with Tin Soldiers and Vatha and Gaz coming to help her. And so like, we just had rising action. We pause for a minute with these interludes with Rider of the Storms and Xyle, Atal'n and a form of power. And now we're coming back down. And so like, we had some rising tension. We paused to get some like, I guess I'll call it exposition through interludes. Boom, boom, boom, boom, four interludes. And now we're like back into letting the reader kind of like take a breather.

by seeing the human side and get to know the characters on a personal level. So I don't know if you want to add any color commentary on that.

No, not really. To my point, we get some exposition about the Fabriels and what the Soulcasters are doing. And to your point, we do get what you just said.

All right, carry on. Let's get into some more tension.

SLAVA (37:05.496)
do it. Chapter 36 is next, a new woman. Okay. Pattern, I wish I had walked through that storm earlier. Pattern opens a lock on one of Tin's trunks for Shalon and she examines the contents, finding clothing and spheres among other useful items. Vatha reports to Shalon that they had burned all the bodies of Tin and her guards and she says,

Yes, you are.

SLAVA (37:33.528)
that she will deal with the skeletons to avoid uncomfortable questions. Makkah sends a servant to retrieve a palanquin for Shalon and then just goes on his way. As Shalon enters the war camp accompanied by Vatha and his deserter guards and her slaves, she frets over her betrothal and plans to continue Yasna's research.

She learns that Dalinar is in conference with Elokar and orders her paliquin to be brought to the meeting. As she travels to the palace, she draws a sketch of herself confidently confronting Dalinar. This is in the attempt to boost her own morale. At the palace, Shalan enters with Vatha and Gas as attendants. They reach the conference room at the top of the palace.

and Kaladin spots her and asks her if Adolin is betrothed to a horn eater princess and she replies she was trying to travel incognito. Kaladin has gas seized and Chalan and says that Chalan is an imposter since Adolin's real betrothed is lost with sea with a very dead Yasna. Side eye towards Jonathan. But Chalan

of course of course

But Shalon gives a spam read printout to Kaladin to have Navani authenticate her claims. Shalon becomes upset at the lack of accommodation on Kaladin's part and they have a heated argument. Kaladin stalks away angry, but Shalon feels that the disturbance will lead to the desired result of her receiving an audience with Dalinar. Gaz mentions that Kaladin was a slave in the lumberyards recently.

SLAVA (39:22.688)
and is very dangerous. Kellyn enters the chamber of the paper and returns after a short time and then summons Shalon to enter the meeting. What do you, I mean, you're a more seasoned reader than I, so I'm asking this question in a way that you probably would ask a first time reader, but I still want to get your response to it in whatever way you want to answer this. How do you like this setup for what ultimately will become

And I'm

SLAVA (39:52.34)
sort of a friendly relationship if not more with Caledon and Chalon here. Yeah.

How do I like this setup? One of the reasons we have the trope of like enemies become friends, friends become lovers, right? And why there's this tension.

Why don't enemies ever become lovers? They-

do in 50 shades of gray.

Never read it, but I'll take your word for it.

JONATHAN (40:15.564)
Neither have I. I've just heard through the zeitgeist.

You're just in the subreddit daily.

It's by daily.

Anyway, sorry, answer that question.

It feels real, like how many times have you had like a friction filled time with a person that you end up.

JONATHAN (40:38.638)
showing your shard blade to is actually the phrase here, but, man, you took this on a weird turn. no, a friction with someone that you end up becoming friends with. mean, that's kind of how our friendship started, where you gave me this absolutely stupid story about strawberries and we became friends and here we are. Right. So I don't know. I like it. I think it feels authentic.

Right. That's what I want to say. That's the word I was going to use. And I asked that question because I want to make my own short comment on it, is it feels authentic. The boo thing, the previous part, them now having a little bit of bitterness, tension with each other, Calvin having his ideas about light eyes, Shallon being, you know, a sarcastic little curmudgeon, which I love about her. She's not really a curmudgeon, but she's very sarcastic and witty. I think it's authentic.

Unbelievable. Like their little tension here, although it foreshadows them growing closer. It's not tropey or it's not cliche. It's a trope. yeah, friends become enemies, become friends, all that good stuff, but it's not cliche. It's not. That's it. That's it. It's not cliche. And I thought it was well done. I enjoy. Calvin getting a little bit of ribbing from Shalon because I always enjoy Calvin getting some ribbon. Yeah.

Yes, me too. And honestly, there was some real, like as a first time reader, there's some real question of like, yeah, Shalance betrothed to Aelin, but Yasna's dead. And this Bridgman seems kind of, you know, dark and moody and rabble rousing. maybe, maybe, and we, and we as the audience know that they're both Radiance. So like maybe they will get together.

Even that tension later on, when they become more friendly, you kind of get that sense or you at least ponder it, right? You're like, you don't get the sense. That's on the right term. You're left pondering, will she break her betrothal to Adolin? Will it be broken because people think that Jasna is dead? Will she start having feelings for Kaladin because, and this is me interpreting.

SLAVA (42:54.438)
the situation because they both have difficult pasts and that will draw them close. have a shared understanding of certain things. They're both radiance to your point. So the setup here led me to think about those things and really think about those things when they're both in the chasms later on, which we'll talk about when we get to it. But man, Sanderson, I don't want to be just a fanboy for Sanderson, but when it's true, it's true. Like Sanderson does an amazing job with

this little chapter, it's not that long, and this little snippet of the chapter itself.

Yeah, yeah he does. Do you think that Spren can fall in love with each other?

I don't see why not if they're advanced enough because they return to some sort of state. How do I say it? They return to a state of devolvement. That sounds very like I'm being harsh, but they return to a state and then when they come back, in Sil's case, she retains some of her memories. When they first attach to a human, when they return quote unquote from wherever they go or attach themselves to a human, they're in a state that's not mature.

And they slowly gain knowledge and understanding. And that's the only word I can think of is maturity. Just like pattern, like silly at first when we meet her, meet her way of Kings, she's a little silly. And then she turns into somebody who can have full on conversations and a back and forth with Kaladin and even teach Kaladin things. So if they're in that mature state, Slava's term for it, probably. Yeah. I don't know they would because of their purpose.

SLAVA (44:36.75)
I don't know that's even like a possibility in their head, but for our purposes, for our discussion, sure, that's, they can, least my view of it.

What do you think their purpose is? What is the purpose of spread?

Okay, well given my limited knowledge of... Well, I'm answering the question. So given my limited knowledge, I would say their purpose is to... Well, let me back up. So there's different types of spren that I've observed. There's a spren that kind of come up in different situations, like when there's shame or fear or death, there's rot spren, all sorts of... Then there's the spren who are trapped, encapsulated somehow in...

You just used the word purpose.

SLAVA (45:17.002)
in prison and objects like we have the prescendi that's actually a third type of spren and then the spren that attach themselves to people and slowly grow into something mature into something that you can converse with even they can help you they can interact with the world so the purpose of those spren is what i'll answer because the other two i i don't know and it seems that the ones that are encapsulated or trapped are the same as the

the that attach themselves to people. So the purpose of those friend in my mind is to maybe be guides in some way to be a bridge in between two worlds or two dimensions. Because I see the guiding principle with Sill and then pattern is somebody who's helping Shallan. He doesn't really teach her a lot of things necessarily. Not the same way at least as Sill teaches Kaladin.

on belaboring, but the point is that they somehow bridge the gap between the two dimensions and they're supposed to guide and assist the people they attach themselves to. Does that make sense?

Okay. It does. The reason I ask why you think spren exist is, you know, based on the current part of the story, we don't, we don't really know. But to your point, have like emotion, spren that represent emotion. We have spren that are more intelligent. Later we get, and I'm trying to remember which book this is. I want to say it's Oathbringer, where we get a better description from Xyle about the different.

types of spren and entities in the Cosmere. Although we also get that in Warbreaker at the end, which we talked about briefly. Emotion spren that you brought up, I mentioned that there is cognitive spren. And then I mentioned that Za'el gives us a description of the types of investiture in the world. But he definitely gives it to us in Words of Radiance. He just revises it later.

JONATHAN (47:21.354)
he classifies invested entities in rhythm of war. That's the problem. Okay. So sorry folks, that's way far ahead. I thought it was an oath bringer. I'm not going to finish my thought here as much as I will revisit because we've covered warbreaker. So in warbreaker, Vasher gives us the details that type one investiture is made sentient. Type two is organic sentient. At the end of warbreaker, Vavina.

And Vassher discussed the classification system for invested entities, identifying four main types, sentient organic, sentient non-organic, non-sentient organic, and non-sentient non-organic, with nightblood being the notable example of the latter. And so type one invested organic sentient entities like the returned, type two invested organic non-sentient entities.

would be like the lifeless type three invested non-organic non-sentient entities. This is like awakened objects and things, the ropes that are animated by Vasher and then type four would be invested non-organic sentient entities like night blood who we've met before and then supposedly type zeros which is just pure investiture with sentience such as Sprint.

That's what we know so far because I don't want to get too far ahead, but Vasher, Xael does have to recategorize as he spends his time on Roshar and Warbreaker happens before we see Xael, Vasher on Roshar. So all those things to say, our original question, cause this was all like very convoluted. Original question was, you know, can Spren fall in love? What did, you know, what, why, or sorry.

Can Sprint Fall in Love? Original question was, you know, why does Sprint exist? And this is kind of what we know so far. That's a lot of exposition on my part. I'm not as good at Sanderson as this. So let's just keep moving on at this point with chapter 37, which is a matter of perspective, which I will let you pick up because I've been yapping, as the kids say.

SLAVA (49:39.704)
Yes you have, but chapter 37, a matter of perspective, during the break, two hours after the meeting started, Adolin ponders in the lack of consensus and how to deal with threat that Zeth poses to the kingdom and how dangerous he is even with the number of shardbearers that are available to protect Elokar and Dalinar based on the reports of Zeth's other attacks.

That's why he's thinking about all of this. This has him worried. Adolin drinks some wine and taunts Rellis over his boasts about wanting to duel Seth to try to bathe him into a duel. Adolin then directly challenges Rellis, but Rellis says that Adolin has to rise in the rankings according to protocol before he can fight him. Rellis declines despite Adolin

offering to wager five shards against one, but Elit accepts a duel for the same proceeds. Rellis is upset that Elit accepted the duel and tries to taunt Adolin to a violent comeback and a possible voiding the duel agreement. Adolin, to his credit, restrains himself. Sadius' turn to come into the story. He taunts Adolin more effectively, causing Adolin to come near to

punching him before he is restrained by Amoram who consoles him to ignore Sadius. Adolin tells Amoram to abandon Sadius for Dalinar but he refuses and says that he is able to keep the kingdom from falling apart further by bridging the gap between Sadius and Dalinar. Adolin's mind wanders as Amoram speaks about how Sadius' and Dalinar's goals are the same.

despite the different means they use, and he sees Shalan and is drawn to her immediately. Amram comments on his flightiness and the need to settle down and comments that the girl is probably from Yakavid and Adolin realizes who she is and goes over to meet her and speaks with Dalinar and Navani about Yasna being lost at sea. See, Jonathan, it is lost at sea.

JONATHAN (52:01.032)
Well, that is an opinion on it.

The look on your face when you find out that Yasin is not dead. Priceless.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Indeedy. Yes, indeedy.

So you want to give us a little bit of a seasoned perspective on chapter 37? I have some thoughts, but I want you to start this one off.

So Adolin is trying to get duels with people and cajole them. They're not necessarily on to his plan, but they're also on to his plan, right? Like it's not entirely clear to them what he's doing. They're kind of only clear that he wants to collect shard blades for his family, which is true. They're not, they're not aware of the bigger picture that he's working on, right?

SLAVA (52:53.772)
Yeah, exactly. That's actually what I was going to point out or my comment was going to point at is this is where Adolin really takes this new job called that seriously. Dalinar has told him, Hey, collect the sharp blades, go duel. And we see him take that up seriously. We get a little bit more of Adolin's character and his makeup in this section too.

To your point, when he defended the prostitute, his talk with Navani, his inner dialogue about Kaladin, then we're brought as the reader here. All this gives us more about Adolin and he becomes more more likable to me.

Yes. What do you think about Amoram stepping in trying to create some sort of, I don't know, peace is probably too strong of a word, but some connection between Sadius and Adolin slash Dalinar?

I think it's all a game. we know who Amoram is, based on what I know about Amoram, let's put it that way, I think he's playing some sort of game. It's a chess move for him. I don't necessarily trust him. Now one could argue that what he did with Kaladin was not who he really is. It's him falling, if you will.

him misstepping heavily because of his lust for a shard blade. Maybe. I don't know. I don't believe that, but I see that as a possibility. Given those two points, think he's machinations, political machinations.

JONATHAN (54:40.258)
Yeah, Amram's just a jack wagon. You don't have to trust him.

He's a jack wagon, he's in saddest camp. Kick him to the curb.

Well, I'm glad that I hold the opinion that I do.

So I'd say that in terms of Adolin, he's doing it. He's doing these duels and winning these shards. And overall, it'll be a big game changer for him. Although there may be some struggle across the way.

And we learn about that struggle in the next section, whether that's this episode or next. But we see some stumbling blocks, some barriers that he hits.

JONATHAN (55:21.506)
Yes, that's true. Chapter 38 is the silent storm where Shalon offers her condolences on Yasna's death to Dalinar and Navani.

loss her yes this loss we have lost yes now for a

reflecting

dead, reflecting on her own grief because Jasna's dead. Dalinar thanks her. Jasna, or Shalan, brought Jasna's belongings as best she could in her shipwrecked, you know, resilience. Navani is having trouble with Jasna's death, understandably so as a mother. Shalan has started noticing Adolin and has started feeling some attraction toward him. Shalan gives some detailed account on the attack on the Wind's Pleasure.

to help Navani understand, but Navani lashes back and berates Shalon for saying that she set the ship afire despite Yasna's apparently already fatal wound. Dalinar defends Shalon and Navani apologizes and leaves because she's just having trouble dealing with it. Shalon tells Dalinar an abbreviated version of her journey via the caravan across the Frostlands to the war camps being

JONATHAN (56:38.462)
rescued by deserters whom she pledged clemency and reward in their service. Dalinar promises the pardons from the king and Shalan then brings up the betrothal with Adolin to join them, smiling, and Shalan and Adolin flirt awkwardly and Adolin offers to maintain the betrothal, but Dalinar asks Adolin to get some wine so he can privately talk to Shalan. Understandably so, as a good father would, because he doesn't know this woman and he doesn't know anything. Dalinar inquires about Shalan's family and her interests.

She explains the situation per Jasnah's coaching, as she described it to her. And Dalinar allows the patrol to stand temporarily based on Jasnah's implied endorsement of Shalon pending further developments, i.e. investigations, offers her the position as a clerk. But they're interrupted abruptly because the high prince, Sibariel, is trying to get Dalinar back into the conference that he left. Shalon mentally notes the attendees of the meeting.

realizing that there's three primary factions with Elikar and Dalinar opposing Sadius, Ruthar and Aladar and Hatham leading a group of mediators, if we can call it that, and then Sbaril is kind of just on the outside doing his own thing. In this meeting, Shalan's listening, trying to put together what's going on. The group wants to know what's happening in Yakavid and the assassination, but she mentions that she wasn't there because she was busy becoming Jasna's ward. And on some personal business,

They don't believe her. think it's just a game because that's all that they know is playing games. Shalon says that she's visiting a distant relative, which is Sibariel, and he plays along because he wants to see where this is going to go. Afterwards, she speaks privately with Sibariel, saying that their arrangement will be mutually beneficial. And Dalinar disrupts the discussion and says that the war is failing and that they will have to change strategy to either make peace with the Parshendi or march full force and wipe them out.

Hatham expresses his disdain and Sadius insults Dalinar, which upsets and provokes Adolin momentarily, which is what Sadius wants. And Dalinar mentions the Parshendi envoy who offered an olive branch right before the assassination attempt and wonders at the coincidence and if the Parshendi are still controlling Zeth as they claimed when Gavilar was killed. Dalinar outlines his plans to scout the plains and outfit a major expedition.

JONATHAN (59:04.568)
to the center of the plains and choose to train new shardbearers to use the armor and weapons that he thinks Adolin will win through duels, then brings the meeting to a close. Sbaril leaves and Shalan says she will meet him as she goes to speak with Elikar personally about his sister, Jasna, who is dead. Did you get that Slava? She's dead. She then brings a writ of pardon for Vatha and crew and he signs them. So, a lot.

I don't buy it.

JONATHAN (59:34.712)
covered, this is another place where Sanderson uses action as well as exposition and the ignorance of a character, i.e. Shalon, coming into the mix to unravel the story that's being told in an organic way, right?

Yeah, for sure. There's a lot going on here, but you also get, and I suppose this is just a consequence of what you just mentioned. You get to see Shallan adapting to a new element, a new situation, which I always like. And I've said this before, just the way Shallan adapts and despite her fears and internal struggles, she goes for it. And even her noticing Adolin and flirting with him, that was fun.

And then what sets up the next section, the meeting with the Sabariel and how she weasels herself into his house. I thought was, we'll say that for the next chapter, but I thought that was pretty great.

Indeed. She's taken some bold steps here from being a, you know, timid farm girl, if you will.

Yeah, nothing timid about her. mean, everybody struggles in their head. We have battles that we fight, but Chalon's a clear example that you could have struggles and doubts and fears and still act when needed.

JONATHAN (01:00:49.71)
Yeah. you think that Satis is going to win in his controlling of Adolin? Whatever that means. Okay, great.

In a way.

I can say yes, yes, because he's gonna get stabbed in the face by Adolin later on. So yes, he's gonna get Adolin to stab him in face. Does he win? In a way.

that's what you meant. Got it. Got it, got it, got it. And what about Dallinar? We haven't really had Dallinar's point of view in a minute. We've been seeing him in different chapters and different things going on, but like, how do think he's taking it all in?

pretty well, but watching him in these situations, knowing what has happened in the previous book and in this book so far, there is so much on this man's plate. And him navigating Navani, navigating the high princes, navigating Amram, and then the bull crap that Kaladin pulls in the few sections here or few chapters. And then Sadius, his former friend.

SLAVA (01:01:51.822)
playing his own games against Dalinar and his own games meaning Sadius' games. There's a lot for this man to juggle and maneuver around all of this and still try to unite the kingdoms for this greater purpose. So, goodness, he's taking it in all right. Right now we don't see, like you said, we don't see his POV, but there has to be, I don't know, I don't want to say fear, but there has to be doubt in Dalinar that this could be accomplished.

Yeah.

He has faith, right? But I'm sure he struggles with doubt in this situation. Meaning the whole thing, not just the minor ones, well, minor ones, not though the parts of the situation that I just mentioned, but this whole thing, this task in front of him by given to him by the storm father, he sure he has doubts.

Right. Yeah, yeah, think that's fair. Chapter 39, heterochromatic. Shalon's father's having a feast. We're stepping back into the past here, right? She's trying to that her family hasn't grown in profit. Blah, Father is trying to thank you. Yeah. You know what? Why don't you just step into this one because I'm clearly flubbing all the flubberies.

Four years ago specifically.

SLAVA (01:02:58.476)
father is trying to pretend.

SLAVA (01:03:09.39)
Alright, Chapter 39, Heterochromatic. Four years ago, Shalan's father is having a feast, trying to pretend that their family hasn't grown impoverished. The guests that he has over are Bright Lord Tavinar and his wife and daughter. They don't seem like they want to be there. Who could blame them? And the conversation is terse and stunted. Eventually, Shalan's father calls for a toast and announces

that he has found himself a new wife, Malice Gevelmar, who will be coming to the estate soon. The response is subdued, which makes him angry, and wonder why nobody wants to be around him, but he gives celebratory gifts to his children anyway. The sons receive fine daggers and Chalan gets a silver necklace. Suddenly, the door to the feast hall slams open and a man walks in. The man's name is Redden.

bastard son of the High Prince of Alam, and he has come to investigate rumors about Chalon's mother's death. Lin says that his wife was murdered by her lover, but Redden reminds him that others tell a different story. They speak alone for a while, and Lin eventually slams his hand down on the table in anger. Calmly, Redden stands up and announces that any light-eyes of high birth can provide witness, and asks if any of the children will come with him to do so.

Balad grabs the sides of his chair as if to stand, but seeing Lin's face stops and whispers that his father will kill him. Shame's spren stir among the children, and then Redden states, if any of them remember something and they want to tell him anything, they will find willing ears. After Redden leaves, Shalan's father shrinks down in his seat with his head in his hands, because he is a douchebag.

Living on Rochar would be tough because your emotions would betray you all the time.

SLAVA (01:05:10.338)
Yeah. Yeah. I just have curmudgeon sprint around me all the time.

It's very strange. It's very strange. Like, you couldn't hide anything.

Yeah. No, and I haven't thought about it until you said it. I just took it at face value. didn't think deeply through it, but yeah, oftentimes you would betray your emotions to people. you. And they to you.

and they to you. However, there's like an attraction, a magnetism with emotion for spren, like this, you know, non-cognitive spren. So, cause they don't show up in every moment of every person's life, right? It has to be overwhelming of some kind. Anyway, I'm just getting into the nuance of it as I like to do. Did we talk about, do you think her father killed his wife?

Yeah, that's a good point.

SLAVA (01:05:57.774)
It didn't, but he didn't.

He didn't. How do we know that?

How do we know that? Because Sanderson tells us Shalan murked her mom.

I don't remember us talking about that. Did I reveal that already? alright. Yeah.

It's in the book.

SLAVA (01:06:14.476)
I read it in this book. That's what I even texted you like, holy crap.

I believe you. Here's the thing, when you've read all 20 whatever books, a lot to keep in your little brain.

Well, do you love books, audience? Do you love this podcast? Don't forget to subscribe and leave a review so you never miss an episode.

All right, then we'll just keep moving on. Chapter 40, Polona. Sbariel and Shalon return to the war camp after his meeting. Sbariel explains that he profits from manufacturing and farming and selling his goods to other high princes, greatly offsetting his fines for not participating in the hunts. They arrive at Sbariel's manor and Shalon is introduced to Polona, Sbariel's quote unquote mistress. Polona helps Shalon settle into her living quarters.

This is a shorter chapter, but we do see a little behind the curtains of Subbario, the games that he's playing, which are not the same games that the other high princes are playing, because he saw a gap in the market, if you will, where the high princes are all going to war. They're all battle hungry. And he's like, I just want to be a merchant. And so I'm not going to go to war and I'll pay the silly prices because I'm just making hand over fist selling things to the high princes.

JONATHAN (01:07:36.598)
And Shalon catches wind of it and she's like, well then I'll do your books. Except I'll do them for a very, very high price. And he's kind of like a, he's honestly kind of like Zile, a little curmudgeony, but I think he's more soft-hearted because he's got Polona and they have what I would probably call a marriage that you might see in, I don't know, another like Eastern European marriage where you're grumpy with your spouse, but you actually love them.

And that's how you show it because that's just what you do. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I can relate. I can relate.

I'm actually just talking about you.

And I obviously, and I just want to correct one thing that I said earlier. I said that is going to happen further on in the book, but it's actually right before this chapter that Shalon immerses herself into Sabaryel's camp, which was done really well. thought in Shalon's part and her coming into this family, I think will give her some stability because Sabaryel soft hearted.

SLAVA (01:08:43.822)
at the end of the day agrees to all her shenanigans, agrees to feed her and clothe her and give her a home. And Polona shows some big sister or aunt-like love towards Shalon, which would be very good, will be very good, hopefully, for Shalon.

yeah, but short and sweet chapter and we keep moving on. it away with 41.

41 scars. Kaladin gives orders for Tefth to train Bridge 17 in the Chasm. There are 37 days remaining before the mysterious glyph countdown reaches zero. asks Kaladin what his goal is now that his bridgemen are relatively safe. Kaladin says he wants to beat Zeth. But Syl scoffs at Kaladin's explanation that he's trying to protect

Dalinar. Kaladin encounters Sigzal, who is speculating with Rok and Lopen about Zeth's motivation and true employer as they were trained by his master to ask questions. Kaladin tries to duplicate Zeth's feet a-walking on walls and fails. Sigzal wishes that he could see Syl and she appears to him. Kaladin asks both Syl and Sigzal about Windrunners.

so he can be better prepared to battle Zeth, but neither is able to give him any information. Sigzal, Rok and Lopen discuss the attempt to make Elokar fall off his balcony, but Kaladin ignores them and suddenly has an insight and a vision of another world that allows him to walk on the wall of the chasm. Kaladin tells Sil that he protects Dalinar

SLAVA (01:10:35.15)
so he can know if Dalinar lives up to his reputation as being honorable and Sylth tells him that honor lives in people and spren like her. Kaladin says that if he trusts Dalinar that he will share the knowledge of his abilities with him. Then Kaladin says he will kill Amorim for his betrayal. Kaladin falls from the Chasm wall and lands in the Chasm with Stormlight, Aided Strength.

Kaladin goes on to explain this theory about the Shardbearer slicing through the balcony after the high storm, and Kaladin notices gouges from where the Chasm Fiend passed and is concerned that it will be dangerous to train there. Kaladin and the others return to their barracks and find a tense dinner gathering. Renarin asks to join Bridge 4 to become a warrior like Dalinar and Adolin.

and to be glorified in the tranquiline halls. Renarin eventually persuades Kaladin to allow him to provisionally join Bridge 4 as a new recruit and shows a good attitude even when given menial tasks to do. Moash expresses doubt, but Kaladin says that Renarin is different from most light eyes and could fit in with them. Kaladin ponders how to confront Moash

over suspicion of him helping to assassinate Elokar. Moesh then advises Kaladin to try to get a duel against Emmeram to deliver his own justice. Moesh and a few Bridgman leave to go drinking and invite Kaladin, Kaladin being Kaladin, declines and stays to eat dinner alone.

When you were reading this, what did you think before this chapter of like who tried to kill the king? Who do you think it, who were you thinking it was?

SLAVA (01:12:31.894)
I was thinking that the King was being a big old baby again. right. And I thought maybe the King did it again. He has access to sharp blades. So I thought maybe he just wants attention. All right. And then when Kaladin starts having his doubts, I was like, OK, this is not the King being a baby. This is probably an inside job. So I started thinking about who it could be. Kaladin provided me a suspect, Moash. And it turns out that it was true.

We read in later chapters that it was Moash.

Yeah. Which stings because it's, you know, his buddy. His very few friends.

Right. And a friend who he felt comfortable confiding in.

Which is why it hurts. Yep, yep, tough times. What do you think about Renar enjoying Bridge 4?

SLAVA (01:13:17.128)
Worse.

SLAVA (01:13:24.45)
I thought it was great. I thought it was in character and I knew that he was going to be a good recruit the way we've seen Renar and be built as a character written as a character so far by Sanderson. I knew he was going to do the stuff that he did and I'm glad that Kaladin let him in. He's just showing the guys that not all light eyes are crazy or pompous a-holes and it gives him

is I really like Renarin. It gives him a chance to really show himself and be motivated and work in a disciplined manner and in a specific space that forces him to grow into the man that he wants to grow in.

Yeah, that leads me to another question. Renarin, in general, do you... How do I even phrase the question? What is his role in all of this, do think?

I think he has a role yet. Maybe not even an oath bringer. I'm guessing because Sanderson has him starting off as a recruit here. And I guess later on in the book his eyes heal because if I remember correctly he's also a radiant.

yeah. Eventually. Right.

SLAVA (01:14:35.03)
Yeah, no role now, obviously, whatever the Radiants are doing in the Cosmere on this planet, which I don't know much because purposefully avoiding certain information than you not giving me the information for other reasons, I have limited myself in certain knowledge. So if I'm guessing at this juncture, obviously he plays the role that he's meant to play as a Radiant.

Currently, he's just being trained to grow into that person more fully. But I couldn't answer any other way. couldn't give you a direct.

Totally. mean, he's new to Bridge 4. He doesn't feel like he fits in anywhere. The cool thing about Renarin is he understands that he's like, uh, uh, chump's not the right word. Um, what's the right word? What is the word that I'm looking for? Uh, he's ill-prepared. He's weak. He needs to change that. He sees that in Bridge 4, you can change that. So he's like, well, I want to, I want to be a part of it. And, you know, I'm sure Kaladin's super uncomfortable.

outsider yeah

JONATHAN (01:15:37.774)
we're supposed to protect you. You're the son of the guy that I'm serving under. And I think, you know, as we see Kaladin just kind of comes to the conclusion like, well, we don't have to protect him as much if we just train him to fight.

Yeah, and if he's always around us, then...

It almost makes my job easier. you know, just like, this is one of those fun turns where you're like, oh, yeah. Yeah, this is cool. All right, cool. You know, we're now it's a bit of a dweeb, but sure, fine. All right.

Yeah, but a dweeb that wants to change. he sees his limitations, understands his limitations, doesn't like that he has this limitations, doesn't live inside his own head like Kaladin does, or at least not as long as Kaladin does. differently. takes steps to rectify.

Yeah. I'm, I'm, uh, just want to relish in the moment for, for a second. It's just, it's nice to have more people to chit chat about the Cosmere with and anyone who reads the Cosmere understands what I'm talking about where it's like the more, I think I mentioned this to Slava before we started recording, but like the more that he reads the Cosmere, it unlocks things that I can talk about, uh, and Spencer can talk about. Cause Slava has been berating with berating us with like Mistborn's dumb blah, blah, blah, blah. And we're like,

JONATHAN (01:16:58.348)
We promise, like if the book was dumb and like pointless, we would tell you this sucks, but you got to read it if you want to know like these things. You don't have to read it. We'll just tell you the things, right? But because there's more, so much more involved than that, we will, you know, we encourage Slava to read it. So, but it's nice to be able to have those unlocks because Slava is continuing to read. He's enraptured with part of the Cosmere at the moment. But I think that that will change as he finishes Arrow 1.

I'm still reading it despite my complaints.

That's right. That's right. All right. Mere Vapors, chapter 42. And we're winding down here. So thanks for joining us for this ride, folks. But chapter 42 is Mere Vapors. Shalon wakes up in her new quarters in the evening and Shalon and Pattern converse and Shalon teaches her spren, Pattern, figures of speech. And this is one of those fun moments during the book where, again, we're getting an understanding of like, what are spren? How do they function? What do they mature like?

How do they learn things? Why are they here? Things like that. And Pattern is funny and also just kind of like an intellectual. He's here to like study humans, right? And during this time, Shalon reads one of Tin's old correspondence regarding Jasnah, Hastavar, and the Ghost Bloods. And Pattern points out a cipher, a code.

that is detected in the messages and Shalon frets that she will not be able to infiltrate the ghost blunts, but using her sketching and her light weaving abilities that she's still learning. And this is again, another fun part, like superheroes don't just automatically know how to do all their things. They also have to learn how to walk and then run and then jog and then do whatever with their bodies or powers, if you will. What?

SLAVA (01:18:48.942)
shit web.

Yes.

Shoot Web. Thank you, Spider-Man. Shalon receives a message from the Spanry that indicates the Ghost Bloods want to meet with Tin that evening. But Shalon says that she's not well and she will send her apprentice intermediary and the Ghost Bloods respond and they will meet with the apprentice. They give her a map and Shalon wears Tin's clothes, Bluth's hat and Dark Eyes as a disguise as she leaves to go to the rendezvous.

When I was reading this, knew she was gonna do it. You haven't read the whole book. Obviously we know what happens. Right. And she does. She does survive. But when this chapter came up, I was like, cool. Tron's gonna go do a thing. I was kind of worried about her doing the thing because that might affect her betrothal to Adolin and she's gonna have to play this double, this game with the Colin family.

And so I was worried about her being exposed 100 % more than I was worried about her being killed or somehow failing at infiltrating the ghost bloods.

JONATHAN (01:19:47.438)
percent.

JONATHAN (01:19:54.926)
Talk to me more about this double life she has to lead, because she's trying to do a thing.

Well, she's starting to have a mental breakdown at some point. The double life includes her being a high lady. So the double life specifically is she needs to pretend she's Tin's apprentice and then somebody who's killed Tin and taken over Tin's business. And also has to be brightness, shalom. She has to be royalty and bring about the betrothal to Adaline to a conclusion. So they should act a certain way. She has to find out.

She has bright eyes.

SLAVA (01:20:30.356)
more about the void bringers continue Jasna's research in her absence and then balance it with this other life that she has with the ghost bloods and she's kind of working with the ghost bloods against some of the bright lords. So there's this treachery within treachery. So for her there's deception on one end, but that deception can

undo everything and I just, she'll lose Adeline. she won't have enough time. This is so trivial, but this, won't have enough time to work on Jasna's research. Her world will come apart if she fails at either task. And if the lives meet, if her double lives meet, that's it game over.

True. Yeah. And the high princes don't even really know that the ghost bloods exist yet. Right? not that we're aware of.

Yeah, exactly. They might be aware of factions out there, but they don't know their names, I don't think, or they don't know that these guys specifically, they're working against them.

Yeah, it's fun being a reader when you get to see these things happening, but they're still, the characters don't know it. And so you're like, man, what's going to happen?

SLAVA (01:21:44.962)
Yeah, for sure. But moving on to our last chapter for this episode, Chapter 43, The Ghost Bloods. Shalon goes to her rendezvous, walks to the meeting using her map as a guide. Shalon tells Pattern to follow her and try to see if anyone tries to tail her, and Pattern reports that nobody is following her. She reaches a destination, which is a tenement building and is admitted

by a horn eater guard. The guard points her to a staircase leading down and she finds another room with a trap door and takes a ladder down further and ends up in a carpeted trophy room with several people. One of the people reminds her of a hoid. The man points a blowgun dart past her and shoots a dart at a target behind her. The man questions Tin's story and Shalon revises it.

saying that Tin wants to work through an intermediary for now, the man praises Shalon's boldness and tries to bribe Shalon into revealing where Tin is hiding, but Shalon declines and calls his bluff of torturing her successfully. The man says he revised his plan to kill Shalon and track down Tin and that he is satisfied at Tin's partial success

but unhappy that Tin didn't show up in person. Five other people, including a masked woman, are present. Shalon takes a moment to examine the shelves and mementos. The man who identifies himself as M'Rays says his next target is Amram. M'Rays says that Tin is to learn Amram secrets from his manor and bring information the following week. Shalon, aka Vale,

accepts the assignment and does the haggle over the payment and is dismissed. After Shalon leaves the building, Pattern warns her that the masked woman is tailing her. She draws a sketch and creates an illusionary wall to hide from her pursuer. Shalon's disguise quickly vanishes as her stormlight runs out and she ditches her coat and a hat and returns to the manor. She's feeling excited over the adventure and makes plans to investigate Hammeram.

JONATHAN (01:24:08.672)
And I really hope they get Amoram. Just get him. Just deal with him so that Kaladin, although wouldn't be satisfying for his revenge, at least he'd be dealt with.

So hopefully they do that.

Yeah. So tell me a little bit about these momentos that Shalana's examined. You said something interesting before we started recording.

So the mementos are you think, okay, Sanderson's just describing the room and we question what they are, Chalon's curious about what they are, but what we find out later is that all the mementos that are described, not all of them to this point, but Sanderson gets into the place where he starts to share with us where they're from in different...

books in the Cosmere to give us, I guess payoff and connect the dots a little bit. So, Mereys has these things in jars and bottles and just on shelves, little mementos from, I'll just tell you, different places around the Cosmere, which incites questions of like, how did he get them? He could be. Can you give us the reading of that section real quick?

SLAVA (01:25:19.457)
See you world hopper.

SLAVA (01:25:25.826)
Yeah, I'm trying to find it. Okay, here it is. Here it goes. She hopped off the carpet and turned, finding a room that was incongruously palatial. A long dining table ran down the center and is sparkled with glass goblets that had gemstones set on their sides. Their glow sprayed the room with light. Cozy shelves lined the walls, each laden with books and ornaments.

Many were in small glass cases, trophies of some sort. Of the half dozen or so people in the room, one drew her attention the most. Straight-backed, with jet-black hair, he wore white clothing and stood in front of the room's crackling hearth, and reminded her of someone, a man from her childhood, the messenger of the smiling eyes, the enigma who knew so much.

maybe it's not this section then. There's another section where she meets with Mereys and he's got a bunch of little trinkets around and it talks about like crystal vials or crystals in a vial that are pink and a feather and some other stuff. I must be getting this confused with a later moment.

Yeah, I don't think it's in this chapter then.

Fair enough. Well, anyway, when we get there, the thought is that maybe Merae's is a world hopper because these little things have payoffs in other books. That's the gist of it. That had less of a payoff than I thought it would because I thought this was that chapter, but I am getting ahead of myself.

SLAVA (01:27:02.286)
we can end on another hard day's work and a job well done by Shalon. She gets in, survives the tests, if you will, as such they were, and gets out. And now she has a job to target Amaram specifically. Yes. A little tense moments here and there.

yeah, I'm looking ahead here. I think it's called, I think it's chapter 64 called Treasures. Maybe. Maybe not. It's later, whatever. We'll get to it. It's fine. Anywho, that anticlimactic moment leads us to the end of this episode. So thanks for joining us. Drop your comments below of how Words Radiance has been for you. Thoughts, questions, comments, concerns, assumptions. Yeah, we want to hear from you.

Yeah. Where is Yasna? Why is it taking her so long to return?

That's all folks.

Well, make sure to share this episode with fellow Book Adventurers. It helps more listeners discover SideQuest. And join us next time for more Cosmere adventures. Until then, happy questing.