Where Golf Still Feels Like Golf: North Berwick to Royal Melbourne

What if the places we romanticize most in golf aren’t perfect at all, just alive in a way we rarely get at home?

In this episode of The Bag Drop, host Matt Considine and cohost Dr. Kevin Moore (a.k.a. “The Professor”) sit down with Joshua Ralston, professor at the University of Edinburgh, North Berwick member, and the voice behind Golfing Scotland on Instagram, to explore what makes a place feel real even when the postcard version wears off.

From East Lothian to Melbourne’s sandbelt, this is a conversation about club culture, architecture, competition, travel, and the difference between famous golf and golf that still feels lived in. If you’ve ever wondered why some places stay in your head long after the trip is over, this one gets at the answer.

The conversation dives into:

• How Josh fell in love with North Berwick, and why Scottish golf changed the way he thinks about score, competition, and what a round is supposed to feel like
• Why Melbourne sandbelt golf hit him so hard, from Royal Melbourne and Kingston Heath to the broader feeling of finding “his Scotland” somewhere new
• What actually separates Scottish links from Australian sandbelt golf: firmer greens, strategic bunkering, subtler landforms, and approach shots that matter after the ball lands
• Why club culture feels different in Scotland and Australia than it often does in the U.S., from bounce games and Stableford to honour boards and rounds that actually mean something
• The hidden-gem conversation every golf obsessive eventually has: Dunbar, Panmure, Woodlands, Barwon Heads, St Andrews Beach, and where the magic still lives once the famous names get crowded

Support our Partners

🏌️ Titleist: https://www.titleist.com

🌐 Golf Blueprint: https://www.golfblueprint.com
🐝 NewClub: https://www.newclub.golf

Connect with our guests

⛳ Joshua Ralston —  📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/golfing_scotland/ | https://edwebprofiles.ed.ac.uk/profile/dr-joshua-ralston

Subscribe to the show:

🎧 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bag-drop-untold-stories-in-golf/id1430328006

🎧 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xRWtUBJH8RazdLw14oaGH

🎧 Transistor: https://thebagdrop.transistor.fm/

Follow The Bag Drop

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thebagdrop
🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/thebagdropgolf
📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheBagDropGolf

Join the NewClub community

🌍 Website: https://www.newclub.golf

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/newclubgolf/

🐦 X/Twitter: https://twitter.com/newclubgolf

📺 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@newclubgolf

💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/newclub

Connect with Matt & The Professor

🎙️ Matt Considine — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/consequential85 | 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/consequence18/ | 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matt-considine-103bb21/

📚 Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") — 🐦 X/Twitter: https://x.com/kevcmoore | 📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kevcmoore | 💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-moore-177b30b3/

Chapters

00:00 Introduction
 06:59 Joshua Ralston returns
 11:25 The Profontication on ego, comparison, and what actually gives golf meaning
 17:16 How Josh ended up at North Berwick
 27:53 How Melbourne happened
 32:50 Why Melbourne felt different
 36:01 Competition culture, Stableford, and rounds that count
 43:00 Sandbelt golf vs. Scottish links
 58:56 St Andrews Beach and Australia’s next tier
 01:08:51 What Melbourne costs and where the value is
 01:14:43 Five courses in Scotland
 01:19:07 Five courses in Melbourne
 01:24:08 Can American golf recreate real club culture?

What is The Bag Drop?

The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community, and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses, and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in-depth discussions on all things golf.

What is NewClub?

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Weekly stories from the communities and characters shaping the game. The Bag Drop blends thoughtful, honest perspectives of Matt Considine (Founder of NewClub) and Dr. Kevin Moore ("The Professor") with expert insights for passionate golfers at every level. Produced by NewClub and supported by our members, each episode welcomes guests from clubs, courses, and the lesser-known corners of the golf world for thoughtful discussions on all things golf and life.

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the first of its kind golf society in the United States; blending the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability more typical of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions, and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, along with signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is on a mission to revolutionize golf membership, making the game more meaningful for everyone who loves it.

Listen, rate, review, and subscribe to The Bag Drop:
Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-bag-drop-untold-stories-in-golf/id1430328006
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xRWtUBJH8RazdLw14oaGH
Transistor: https://thebagdrop.transistor.fm

Follow us on social:
Instagram/Facebook/Threads: https://www.instagram.com/thebagdrop
X/Twitter: https://x.com/thebagdropgolf
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheBagDropGolf

Join the NewClub community:
Website: https://www.newclub.golf

Matt Considine (00:03.244)
Welcome to the Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host Matt Kass, I'm here with our co-host, the professor, Dr. Kevin Moore. Sláinte, good morning, sir, how are you?

The Professor (00:14.794)
I'm doing, I'm doing great. How are you doing? You know, we always start with me talking about my day and how the classic city is going, but how's it going up North there with the spring weather coming into play?

Matt Considine (00:24.408)
Chaos, sheer utter chaos, children. You're gonna hear little voices probably in this one. It is, I guess you call it spring break. All my kids are daycare, preschool. They call it daycare school now. Did you know that? Like it's an insult to call it daycare. They want it to be referred to as school. I don't know about that, but they're not there. They're here. And my wife's off work today.

The Professor (00:39.618)
No.

Matt Considine (00:51.254)
I got doors locked, I got barriers between us and them right now, but if you hear some chaos, I apologize to our listener, I apologize to you. I'll be focused, because we got a great guest today, but there's a lot of excitement in the air, Professor, excitement in the air. I'll give you a quick story. Swing sets, did you have a swing set growing up as a kid?

The Professor (01:14.337)
yeah, swing set with the whole ladder, like the sort of thing on the slide. Yeah, all that. Loved it. Fell off of it way too many times.

Matt Considine (01:20.622)
So I did two, but most my memories of the swing set is the decaying piece of splinter ridden danger in my backyard. Like, you know, there's the early years you have a swing set, I think as a kid, and then it just sits there for decades and it just looks post-apocalyptic. I was very anti the swing set. I wanted swings in trees, which we've done. We have the tire swing in the front yard. All the neighborhood kids jump on that.

The Professor (01:47.796)
Ugh, so jealous of the tire. I never had a tire swing, never had it.

Matt Considine (01:50.806)
It's a proper one too. It's like a little dangerous, but you know, super high up there.

The Professor (01:56.27)
Are you a rope tire swing or you like the chains going down with like the flat tire? Like what's your what's your design on the on the tires?

Matt Considine (02:02.834)
I, it's roped to, can't remember the knot they call it, but then it splinters out three ropes to the actual sitting tire so you can get four kids on it once. Holds up to 750 pounds. I did all my research. I did need your math brain though, cause I had to move it from three different trees to put that swing up. I had my laser out trying to measure the rope cause it had to kind of loop through. It was a whole pulley system. I don't want to get into that. I want to get back to swing sets.

The Professor (02:12.888)
Gotcha.

Matt Considine (02:32.942)
Here's the scenario that played out this week in the Consign House. I gave him, my wife is like, all right, the swings are great. You know, thanks for putting those out. But I had a swing set, you know, let's get these kids a swing set. we did, we went, but guess she knew how to really convince me it was the basketball hoop. She threw in with it and she goes, well, the place we're going to go is having a sale. It's having a sale end of February on a basketball hoop. She planned ahead. of course, the last day of February, we get the whole family car.

The Professor (02:56.078)
She planned ahead.

Matt Considine (03:03.074)
You know, it's, it's just a, it's, it's like going to a car dealer, but more fulfilling cause your kids are excited and, but you know, there's negotiations taking place at body language, just playing a part, a lot of happening. We, walk out of there, you know, buying a in-ground basketball hoop and a play set or swing set. Now here, here's where the story gets, dicey is they call me back because of the weather. They got to wait on the basketball hoop.

The Professor (03:14.761)
Uh-huh.

Matt Considine (03:32.686)
but I was negotiating and I got a single delivery fee, because they were gonna deliver both together, knocked off a bunch of cash from the deal, felt good about that. Well, when they delayed the basketball hoop, and I had already promised my kids that today, this day was when this, so my daughter Nora has been, I think it's been 13 days she's been counting down. She'd say 13 sleeps, 12 sleeps, 11 sleeps. She remembers.

The Professor (03:48.814)
Ugh.

The Professor (03:54.062)
She hasn't slept.

Matt Considine (03:59.822)
Long story short, I call them with the sob story yesterday and I go guys, I know I paid for the single day delivery. I, I appreciate that. Is there any way you can get that swing set over here tomorrow? Cause I'm going to have some disappointed little ones and I don't know how to break it to them. And they were great. Bennett's I'm going to give them a shout out. If you're in Northeast Ohio, Bennett's off of 18, it is a family run business. They actually build everything there. The wood.

The Professor (04:01.557)
no.

The Professor (04:28.426)
typical Ohio.

Matt Considine (04:28.77)
The plastic probably comes from wherever. Yeah, I mean, it's a third generation family businessman and it is awesome. So they're in my backyard right now, putting that thing together. My kids are fogging up the glass, just looking out. Hopefully the rain holds off and they can go experience it. thank you for asking. It's been an eventful couple of days here in the Considine Home.

The Professor (04:53.198)
Well, I got to ask what, basketball hoops you go with? What's the, are we glass backboard or we composite? You're going, I'm guaranteed your glass. Me as a rural Ohio guy, like if someone had a glass backboard in town, you, you can't hide money. You can't hide money where the rest of us with the composite basketball hoop with the rotting rims, just like.

Matt Considine (05:00.588)
I'm a purist.

Matt Considine (05:10.049)
That's the place.

Matt Considine (05:15.586)
That's the place you wanted to be, man. The guys with the glass back bar, you're right. Of course.

The Professor (05:19.702)
With the probably the auto adjust and like the height too, you can just auto adjust it real easy. Be Duncan when you're, you know, 12 years old. Mine was the fixed composite, like couldn't change height. Just hope that installed it right.

Matt Considine (05:27.374)
Well, and here was a, we ended up with the Mega Slam, the Mega Slam, is, you know, one of the top three brands, but everything you describe it here, a differentiator, cause my kids are little and it's, this is really for me, let's be honest. I want to shoot hoops, but that one cranks down to a height of five feet, which I've never seen before. I've seen seven being the lowest. I've seen six being, I've never seen one go all the way to five.

The Professor (05:54.168)
Five, five's down.

Matt Considine (05:57.101)
Very excited for whenever that one gets here.

The Professor (05:59.437)
You can be out working on your left hand a bunch, I bet.

Matt Considine (06:04.674)
Kevin, our listeners don't know that you are.

The Professor (06:05.342)
For those that don't know, Matt was quite the baller back in college, but he had no left hand, zero left hand. So we had to rectify that. And he did rectify that over, I don't know how much he worked at home. disappeared, he wasn't studying, he wasn't practicing golf, that's for sure. He'd disappear, be somewhere, and all of a sudden he had a left hand six months later.

Matt Considine (06:18.786)
Hey.

Matt Considine (06:28.398)
When you're that good going to the right, why even worry about it? You know, you couldn't stop me. Nobody could. I should play a year of left-handed golf just to see that I need that humility. I know that's a trend some guys have done. Yeah, I am probably that would be horrific though, is my guess judging on how I throw a football left-handed dribble left-handed didn't get that side of the brain. Speaking of brains and speaking of ballers, we got a good one today.

The Professor (06:41.166)
Shout out, shout out John Carter.

The Professor (06:58.67)
He might wanna talk ball.

Matt Considine (06:59.869)
Doctor Doctor to doctor. Dr. Joshua Ralston is back after two years. I really think of all the podcasts we've had I and I guess it's just probably the news cycle and the state of golf. I think about Josh's episode with us a lot over the last two years. So it feels more recent than it is. But if if you're a loyal listener, you might remember we had Josh on to talk about

Saudi Arabia and their involvement in golf two years ago. And it really was one of our most picked up, listened to episodes because he's a force of knowledge and expertise in the Middle East. so that was just such an illuminating conversation for me. And I know a lot of other listeners got a lot out of it as well.

The Professor (07:35.917)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (07:49.135)
Yeah, it's still relevant. If you haven't listened to podcasts, you go back and listen. You're like, yeah, this guy does know something about a still relevant podcast like you. thought for sure, you made a mistake talking to Josh pre-show. like, yeah, how many times have you done it? He's like, just once. I'm like, And obviously, Josh is a, I would call him a dear friend, especially in the golf world. I'm like, man, that's, we're lucky we have him on because we should have had him on more than that in this time. So really, really looking forward to today's conversation, which won't be on the Saudi.

in that ongoing how it's unfolded, we're going to dabble into something else a little bit more personal golf specific, which is going to be fun. But glad we got him back on and certainly won't be the last time. We'll have to put a little note down not to let it be two years until we get him back on.

Matt Considine (08:34.818)
Yeah. I mean, I remember at the time, some people saying, well, that was such a, a specific episode. You guys found such a, a knowledgeable subject to talk to or to talk to about the subject. Like how, how did you, you, did you know to go to Josh? I was like, honestly, I had no idea. had that background. I love his Instagram account golfing Scotland. If you aren't following, like what are the best man? And, and, for all those that love Scottish golf.

The Professor (08:55.886)
One of the best.

Matt Considine (09:03.66)
He is an American living in Scotland and that perspective I think brings with it a really interesting bit of flair or color to the lens of Scottish golf, right? And yeah, I just love, I love his Instagram. I love his stories. I love North Berwick where he is a member. And so what are we talking about today though, professor? Give our audience the idea, cause it's new and different.

The Professor (09:32.279)
Yeah, so we'll make sure to have Josh catch everybody up that didn't listen to first episode on his background. just to go ahead and make everybody mad at him, Josh has lived that dream where, you know, he's an American, didn't really play golf in America growing up. If I remember that right, and then just moved to Edinburgh eventually became a professor there at the University of Edinburgh. And happened to stumble upon North Berwick, you know, especially one of those far

less popular than it is today. It'd be interesting if this could happen today if a professor moved to the University of Edinburgh, if they could just stumble over there and get on. But he joined North Berwick, thought, hey, the Scots love golf, I should probably do this golf thing and I'm just going to play on North Berwick. Obviously, if you start playing golf there, you're probably going to fall in love with it, falls in love with it. And then eventually stumbles upon a sort of visiting opportunity at Melbourne and goes over there for, I forget how many months.

off the top of my head and he'll tell us, numerous months and got to live in that golf world for a little bit. So he is that person that all of us sit, post-round hang, we're two pops in, we're like, man, wouldn't it be just great just to disappear and go play in Scotland for several years and go over to Australia for several years and do that sort of thing. He actually lived that life and was able to leverage his job as a professor and be knowledgeable in a couple of very specific subjects to

to do that. yeah, I'm forever jealous of him. He is the version of me. that I would like we all have a comparison, right? Like we all have something that we compare ourselves to, you know, and that we would aspire to be I would say, I would say, Josh is that professor that I aspire to be.

Matt Considine (10:59.778)
He's the alternate universe you. He's the alternate universe you is what you're saying. Bizarro, Bizarro Kevin, Bizarro Professor.

Matt Considine (11:20.814)
Do you have any profondications for us today before we dive into the conversation?

The Professor (11:25.006)
I do. I segue there, you know, I've been listening to a lot of, I back on the podcast train of just like, call it self help, or just being healthy or whatever, right. And you know, I love the mind and how the mind works. And I love philosophical perspectives on it. And one of my favorite topics, you know, was riding with my good buddy, Alvin Maness and Trey Moon going out the sandhills last year, and we just got down this like hour and a half rabbit hole on ego.

And what's interesting in the philosophy of the mind, if you look at the East, part of the Eastern philosophy, part of our mind is ego. Western philosophy does not include ego as part of it. But if you look at, know, yogis, Buddhists, and all that is coming along, it's becoming more more apparent that is a powerful perspective to take on the mind, especially trying to improve your mind and your mental health. And one of things you can do to really think about it, it's hard to pull apart, like, what's my ego versus what is my intrinsic drive? And obviously, these are

inseparable, it's not like you can pull these completely apart. But if you really want to think about what am I conditioned to like, versus actually what gives me intrinsic joy without conditioning, is to think about what am I comparing myself to? Right? So if you're comparing yourself to something, oftentimes that's a sign of that is a case of your ego, that is something external.

that's acting on you, you're perceiving it as something you need to chase versus something that gives you intrinsic joy. This is common. We can tie this straight to country clubs as we love to do. How many country clubs look to other country clubs, a member goes somewhere, my gosh, they have this, we need to have that or look at that club, we need to be more like them. That's an egotistical take on it.

versus like who are we, what's our culture, what's our ethos and whatever results from that will result from that. But let's think about what gives us joy and let's focus on that. So this plays out in your everyday life, plays out in the golf scene all the time. You know, are you looking outwards and always comparing? Like I look at Josh and be like, man, that's the life I want. Now I think in his case that would also give me the intrinsic value. Those are the things I value. He's just someone that I get to see actually live it where I don't live that life.

The Professor (13:42.094)
But yeah, looking at that, are you chasing something because someone else is doing it or is it actually something that you want? So something just to stew on and think about if you want to go down the ego world and think about that sort of more Eastern philosophy of the mind.

Matt Considine (13:55.454)
I, um, that's a, I love that point. It's something that, uh, E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E E

And where does that come from? Probably more intrinsic than it does external validation. Like, yeah, you play to win something or you work hard to win your club championship. But really, it every great athlete, think Ray Allen had that really famous quote of the day after finally winning a NBA championship, he went up to the woke up the next morning and was miserable and he couldn't, he was like terrified. He's like, what's going on? Why am I?

This doesn't feel anything of what my whole childhood was about. What all this was about, this feels bizarre. And he had like a, panicked. And the reason is the external thing isn't gonna be the satisfying piece. It's intrinsic. I love that. Without, it's a good prep too for this conversation. Cause I know there are hundreds of people that are about to listen to our chat with Josh, like myself saying, gosh.

Why haven't I been over there? I want to play these courses. And that's a good motivator. It is. Cause if you love these things, you should, but it's keeping it in perspective, you know, that, that, that there are, balance and counterbalance.

And if you're balancing your golf game, professor, you gotta know what ball you're playing. It's that time of year. Our friends at Titleist, supporters of this podcast, supporters of New Club, they've probably been all over your feed of late with your favorite professional golfers testing out a new metal wood that will soon be in our hands and yours. But I'm not talking about that today. I'm talking about in the spring.

Matt Considine (16:05.012)
as you're getting ready, peak season down where you're at, Professor, we're getting closer to start time. Load up now, get your golf balls. Titleist does have some nice promotions if you're part of a club like New Club, where you can get multiple dozens for a nice pre-season's price, but just know what ball you're playing. The Pro V1, the Pro V1X, they offer excellent benefits to your golf game, but they are significantly different.

And they're designed that way. That's purposeful from the engineers at Titleist. So how do you choose what I do now every year? I go to Titleist.com and I just make sure, reread the ball fitting guidelines. I reread their educational resources and then I just fill out the questionnaire. And yeah, you can do the in-person ball fitting. Like me, busy right now, I'm not always gonna do that every year, but this really is a cool thing that they have online there. So check them out.

Titleist Golf ball-fitting team is online and they're the number one ball in golf. Professor, let's get on to the show.

Matt Considine (17:16.376)
Josh Raulston, welcome back to the backdrop.

Joshua Ralston (17:21.039)
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be back. I think it's almost been three years now and it's fun to talk to you guys again. Enjoy always listening to you as well.

The Professor (17:32.239)
I'll you what, I would love to get your take on the whole Saudi stuff from that last episode, but let all the listeners go back and give them a chance to listen to that episode. Then maybe we'll put you on the docket here in the coming months and do a revisit as that thing continues to unfold. Cause I'm sure there's going to be some June or July drama that's going to occur with the PGA tour and live. No doubt that that story's not over, but that's not why we're here to talk, Josh. We're here to talk. Melbourne, Australia, East Lothian.

Maybe spread that up the Fife, maybe spread that across the UK a little bit golf and American golf, because you are somewhat uniquely positioned, maybe the uniquely positioned person, the comment on them in depth. and that's what we're here to talk about before we dive into that though. Give us the 10,000 foot view of how you ended up being the person we're talking to about Melbourne, East Lothian and American golf.

Joshua Ralston (18:32.758)
Yeah, so as as I think you guys said in the intro, I didn't grow up much of a golfer. I was a basketball player. Baseball golf was around. You like sports, but my brother was into it because of a friend of his who's caddy for a well known professional player. So he played, but I never really did. But I always liked the game. You know on and off like any ex athlete.

tries to play and slices a ball 100 miles offline. But then about 11 years ago, I got a job at the University of Edinburgh and I knew that I wanted to start playing golf more. There's not going to be pick up basketball in Edinburgh like there was in Atlanta or Southern California or Virginia where I'd been before.

Matt Considine (19:20.214)
And if there was, we're of that age, right, Joshua? You're taking some big risks,

Joshua Ralston (19:25.436)
I don't know man. So when I first came over because I went to Wake Forest undergrad and I did once play in a pickup game with Tim Duncan, somehow a rumor got around to the students. The study abroad students that I had played at Wake Forest with Tim Duncan. And so I got recruited to be the faculty member on the intramural team and so I was able to like relive my glory days. Not because I was still good, but as at the time in my mid 30s compared to most Brits like I could dominate them. I'm 6-3.

Until we came up against the Lithuanians in the semi finals and just got absolutely trounced. So yeah, if you if you heard like a Serbian Lithuanian Spanish accent, you you pick them if it's English Scottish stay away.

The Professor (20:05.687)
It

Matt Considine (20:09.742)
I, you know, if you were a, sounds like we had similar basketball careers, Josh. If you were a, like a, a mid-level high school Hooper, go to the UK and join some of their club teams. You're going to feel like LeBron James. It was a wonderful feeling for me in 2005, you know.

Joshua Ralston (20:21.319)
yeah. Yeah.

Exactly. But anyway, so I knew I wanted to play golf. I'd always enjoyed it. And I'm going to move to Scotland. We thought we'd be here five to seven years. It's been 11 and I started playing golf more regularly. My father-in-law was over the first year we went out and played North Berwick with a caddy. I hit it off with the caddy. He's like, where are you going to play? I was like, well, I don't know. I'm thinking like an American. I can't afford this. He's like, oh, I like you. Maybe you put your name on our waiting list.

And I say I can't afford it and he's like you can it's only 500 and my father-in-law goes is that 500 a week or 500 a month and You know in his I'm not gonna do a Scottish accent, but he was like no that's for the year sir And my father-in-law cannot believe this so I got on the wait list and two years later I got in and this was before the sort of absolute deluge of interest in North Berwick before it had sort of hit

You know, it was trending on your golf club atlases and you're in the nose, but it hadn't hit the Instagram YouTube videos. No laying ups, tourist sauce hadn't been out yet. So I was able to get it in two years and I've been fortunate to, to really learn to love golf there.

The Professor (21:24.984)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (21:38.306)
Yeah, I'd imagine that reality is no longer for any professor moving over there that's like, I'm going to move over there and take the train out and get a caddy to nominate me.

Joshua Ralston (21:42.7)
No, I-

I get Americans asking me like, how can you, how can I get into a club? I want to retire in Scotland and you're just like, you know, 15, 20, 30 years, you got to get on a list. Now it's, it's, it's difficult even for people that move into East Lothian who came from another part of, of the UK that want to play. So we're trying to address that to let locals play more, but it's, it's just like the golfing movement in, in the U S it's been massive over here in Scotland.

Matt Considine (22:12.28)
I was gonna say just the attention alone on North Barrett, because I think, you're right, those small circles, we've been paying attention for quite a while, and it's kinda in hushed tones in locker rooms, how special North Barrett is. Has all that attention changed the culture at all, from your perspective, Josh, since you've been there?

Joshua Ralston (22:34.074)
Yeah, I think there was always, since I joined in in early 2019, there was always Americans coming through in the summer. But that's just gotten bigger and bigger, more and more, to be honest, louder and louder. And as an American who's a member there and lives here, it is sometimes a little awkward for me because I'm sort of betwixt and between the worlds. We even have some members of staff that are temporary workers that will, you know,

I'll show up in the bike welcome to North Barrett there's the first tea our head pro Martin hush makes fun of me all the time if I show up on a Saturday to play in a company's you know you know this is members only day Sir just as a running joke because of this so it has changed the dynamic.

Matt Considine (23:18.488)
So good. How many tourist bag tags do you have? Like do they just keep giving them to you as you're showing up?

Joshua Ralston (23:24.376)
Yeah, yeah, no, I don't. I don't get any of the free perks, but I also don't have to pay what you guys have to pay, so it's changed. I in general has changed North Berwick even more so some of the other like next down the tier because North Berwick was always at least in the 10 years that I've been here in that mix. But it's places like Dunbar.

The Professor (23:43.928)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (23:47.056)
that are starting to get a lot more traffic everyone's looking for the next north barrack is it done bar is it ely is it a place up north like goldspear borough. Because the place like north barrack or cruden bay that used to be kind of. Off the beaten path are now so popular and given how close north barrack is to edamra and given its influence on the game in terms of radan and other courses it's always have that sort of easier access and some of these other places.

The Professor (24:18.52)
Josh, paint a picture what it was like when you joined North Berwick and you're kind of picking up the game. What was that like from like a culture perspective of the club and just getting embedded in the game at a place like North Berwick?

Joshua Ralston (24:31.331)
Yeah, I mean, again, I had played before your typical come back from college, try to play one summer a bit. It wasn't like I hadn't hit a ball. But one of the things that you realize quite quickly is that I thought I was better than I was because the United States, you're taking mulligans. You don't even know the proper out of bounds rules. You're scooping pots. So in my mind, I'm a good athlete. I shoot in the low 90s, maybe high 80s. But then you've got a scorecard in your hand. You got to put everything out.

The Professor (24:39.832)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (25:01.077)
OB is three off the T and you suddenly realize you're not as good as you are. That's one thing. The other thing is that you're learning a different style of golf and it's not paint by numbers. So I can tell you what my seven iron goes and I know what it goes, but just last weekend we are into 20 mile per hour winds with gusts up to 40 on the front and then

The Professor (25:07.906)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (25:28.771)
Downwind it's the same thing so you've got to get a feel of what that number is what kind of shot you're hitting are you going high you're going to go go low to keep it down because it's it's early in the season it's not going to be as fiery on the ground yet so some of those shots that you can hit the summer so you just learn to play golf as a as a sport more than hit your number or drink with your buddies because you know we play competitively.

And if we're not playing competitively, we're playing a bounce game, but even then there's usually a match on the line. So it's just I learned golf in a in different culture than when I go back and play with my brother and my dad in the States or some friends. You just realize how culturally different that is. But that also means to get back to Australia that sometimes I get the attraction to Scottish golf that and the sort of mythic nature of it that comes across in books and.

The Professor (26:01.998)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (26:25.881)
Podcast whether that's classics like Bamberger or newer things like Jim Hartzell, but if you live here you also know that that narrative is is sometimes rose colored glasses right we to fight about tee times we to complain about slow players we to have committees that argue we you know it's not all all of that so some of my. Interest in Aussie golf was to say like.

What could be my Scotland? What is this like far away place that attracts you? Obviously it wasn't going to be the States. I'm American. Even if I hadn't played golf, like there's nothing that amazing about as a Californian. Like of course I'd love to play Pebble or Cyprus, but I've walked next to them. I like my family's from around, not there, but from San Francisco area.

The Professor (27:12.258)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (27:18.219)
It there's not that a lower and I think the twenty nineteen presidents cup where you're watching Royal Melbourne and you're like what is this golf it reminds me of what I'm used to but it's different and there was this kind of appeal to like what could be my place that I sort of envision going that is to me what Scotland is to so many other people like I'm forever grateful about Scotland but because I live here you know it's pissing rain right now it's dark.

The Professor (27:25.357)
Yeah.

Joshua Ralston (27:45.249)
I know all of the downsides. wanted something romantic and Australia for whatever reason became that for me in golf.

The Professor (27:53.228)
So how'd you make it happen?

Matt Considine (27:53.656)
That's, that was my question. I was like, I, I, I, I'll be transparent for our audience. I was like, I know Josh, need to Scottish golf and his perspective. I Australia, I didn't know he was over there. Is he, is he studied there? So I, yeah. How did, how did that happen?

Joshua Ralston (27:55.663)
So yeah, how do I make it happen?

Joshua Ralston (28:13.485)
Yeah, so you know, I'm in a permanent academic position at the University of that includes research. so I had a research leave coming up in 2020. You're going to know how this ends. And I had invited to do a keynote, a conference at Sydney, and then was going to go over to Melbourne to give a paper as well. So I was just going to go for three weeks. I just randomly email Royal Melbourne because I want to play it.

They come back with a number that's astronomical, but I was still going to do it. And had a friend there, Ross Flanagan, who some of you might follow on Instagram or heard his previous podcast, one of the first podcasters in Australia that was going to play with him at his course, Peninsula Kingswood a couple of days before we're supposed to go. Obviously COVID happened and never ended up getting over there. Fast forward to my next sort of sabbatical research leave.

The Professor (28:55.534)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (29:09.337)
three years later and I got offered a position as sort of the distinguished visiting professor at the University of Melbourne for three months. And of course I jumped on that opportunity. There were some academic reasons with colleagues of mine that I work with in sort of my main area of inter-religious dialogue who had retired from Georgetown and gone back there. So there's a reason to be there. But obviously the golf was a reason to be there too. And I was able to trade.

You trade January, February, March in Scotland, which is not golf season for an Aussie summer. And that was in the their summer of 2024, our winter of 2024. And then through those connections, being there for three and a half months, I've now been back another time for another conference. Last last Christmas time went to the Aussie Open at Royal Melbourne, and I'll be back a couple more times in the coming year, too. So it's now it's it's in my blood and I have the connections and

both academically and work, but then also friends and golf. So that's kind of how it came to be. I'm fortunate to have a kind of job that allows me to do that.

The Professor (30:16.782)
Yeah, I was just going to add that Josh, right? There are some downfalls of being a professor, but definitely those are one of the hugest perks of being a professor, right? We're able to combine work and travel in very strategic ways that benefit both. And this seems like a home run for you in terms of both the personal side and the professional side.

Joshua Ralston (30:36.29)
Yeah. And I mean, for me, it's even farther than it would be for American listeners to get from the UK to Melbourne. If you're on the West coast of the States, it's, I mean, it's far, but it's not that bad. And the time zone is actually not as bad as it sounds because of the opposite way it works. But for us, it's literally 11 hours and about 25 hour total travel to get there. But to me, it's worth it once you land.

Matt Considine (31:02.87)
Yeah, I just I won't say exactly why, but thanks to this podcast, I've had a pen pal in Melbourne and the time change. I'm Eastern Standard Time here in the States. But I will just say my wife was very curious why I was FaceTiming a Melbourne native about midnight my time when she was starting her workday and she would just hear this Australian accent. She's what the heck is like? it's the podcasting thing. Don't don't worry about it. Back to sleep, honey.

But it's doable from my perspective. was like, yeah.

Matt Considine (31:39.042)
Where are we going, Kevin? I want to dive in, baby. I want to hear about the sand belt.

The Professor (31:39.233)
All right, so yeah, let's dive into, let's stay at the personal experience level, and then we're gonna make them talk about courses and competitions and all that and really geek out. But you alluded to, I think you brought it up, Josh, like it's fascinating how it's going to Scotland for Americans is always an infatuation that occurs, right? That's what, probably 97 % will get rid of.

Our buddy, Dr. Nico Daris, will get rid of him. Didn't happen to him, but everybody else goes over there and like, it just hits and it's like, yeah, this is the way it's supposed to be. It's perfect, blah, blah, blah. But we know it's not perfect, right? We know people are people. Internally, there's all these things going on within a culture, within a country. Tensions go on that influences what goes on in the grounds of the game. So we know it's not perfect. But you got to know, you were seeking that experience of let me go somewhere where it feels perfect.

Is that what it felt like when you first started getting to play the Aussie courses, especially those in Melbourne? Especially being someone coming from a place like North Berwick that's so esteemed and has such a good culture and such good traditions. You know, did it like move the needle or was it like, oh yeah, it's a great golf course. The other needles aren't moved.

Joshua Ralston (32:50.242)
Yeah, for me, I don't know if I was looking for perfect. I don't think such a thing exists in the world, but I wanted an adventure. I wanted something that felt unique and different that was familiar, but changed. And in that sense, Melbourne provided it both in terms of the golf courses, in terms of the flora and fauna, the smells, the weather.

As a Californian, it weirdly felt both familiar, but also distinct. You know, I don't know if you know the smell of like a eucalyptus tree or what they would call a gum tree after it rains. Like that's the smell of my childhood in some ways growing up where I did. And obviously you have that all over the place in Australia. You have the strong influences from various like Asian cultures in a way that would be familiar to LA, San Diego.

The Professor (33:20.483)
Hmm.

Joshua Ralston (33:43.695)
San Francisco so like it both felt like that but then it also was completely different. It's got its British influences and it's distinctly Aussie and then on the golf course it just felt like two of my favorite places to play golf in the world are links golf and the Surrey and Berkshire Heathland and Melbourne Sand Belt Golf is like the perfect marriage of those two things where you've got. I I love sort of kind of.

You know your cults obviously Mackenzie a little bit more than the rugged old Tom Morris. You know I love Mirfield. It's probably my favorite course in Scotland and it is a really a 1920s creation, not a 1880s. And so Melbourne got me that, but this different way with bunkers cut into the edge of the sand, the ways in which you use the putting pace is different and then also culturally again.

The Professor (34:26.488)
That's right.

Joshua Ralston (34:40.942)
Some things that felt familiar they love competitions but then things that are also different the distinct way that they go about playing a distinct way of a sort of being that was really fascinating and because I was there long enough right it wasn't just a week or two you get to see places a few times so or or numerous times so something that on a first play like the third hole at Royal Melbourne West you don't think anything else but the more you play it a little bit like the old course which it was.

somewhat influenced by you start saying, my gosh, this swale is perfect and this is what you have to do and how you have to manage it. So it's a thinking person's kind of golf as well, which I like, you know. So yeah, not perfect, but it's scratched that itch for something that felt I can explore this in a way that feels both at home, but new.

The Professor (35:34.159)
Josh you you've brought up competition several times in this podcast already and you said like, you know, they have a culture of competition I don't I would venture to guess there's a lot of our listeners that hear the word competition like yeah I play at my club all the time we play matches on the weekend But I think the version of competition you're speaking to is quite different than those of us especially in the US are used to if you say a little could you dive into what that means to you a culture of competition

Joshua Ralston (36:01.142)
Yeah, so I would start with Scotland because that how I grew up playing golf will learn to play golf here was formalized competitions, right? And as someone who was an athlete who enjoyed trying to get better, trying to win, trying to play on a team. You know, obviously it you can play pickup basketball, but that's not the same thing as playing a league. It's fun, you want to win, but it's not the same.

And Scottish golf is much more like playing in a league than pick up basketball, right? Like it's formalized. You put in your scores, you're playing by all the rules. The money that's involved is with the club, not with your buddies. You're not playing all the games that I don't understand that you guys play. You're either playing stroke play, you're playing match play, you're playing foursums. You got a trophy that you can get your name on that's been there since, you know, 1847.

This that element of Scottish golf competition and various ways of playing like foursomes, four ball stroke play, individual match play, some handicaps, some scratch that I really love about Scottish golf. And Aussie golf, it's slightly different, but it has some of that element. They primarily play Stableford because of the issues around huge numbers with their bunkers and their greens and for pace to play.

The Professor (37:11.811)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (37:27.234)
They play almost every like all the time they're playing cops, so it's a little less formalized like ours, like a big one every week or every other week or once a month. And then they also have the bigger ones where for them the main thing is to get your name on the board. So if you go into a club, you'll see the gold leaf with various names that are painted at the end of the year. So for them they both have a formalized stable for competition many days of the week.

The Professor (37:44.92)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (37:56.246)
And again, you're putting out your plane by the rules. Someone else is keeping your scorecard. That's that's how your handicap is played, right? This whole idea of in the US that you would put in your card no matter what is foreign to both the bear Scots and and Aussies. So that I enjoy that part. I know it's not for everyone and.

What's nice in Scotland and in Australia, it's not quite as much. I prefer the Scottish version of this. It's sort of like, you know, before you start, is this what we call a bounce game where we're just playing for fun and your score is not going in? Or is this a match that's formalized with the club? So there's like a clear sense of of how that day is. I always find when I play in America, you're kind of playing for fun with your buddies, but then suddenly you're playing for a card and suddenly you're all like if you're playing a match, you're not putting in a.

The Professor (38:40.054)
Uh-huh.

Joshua Ralston (38:46.463)
A card right those are two different ways of playing golf. And so both I like that about both Scotland and Australia that you sort of distinguish what are we doing today is this for fun or is this for score is this a match or is this. Stable further stroke play so that's something that I think is cool about both Aussie golf and. At Scottish golf, although there is some cultural distinctions there. I think the Aussie the Aussies are so competitive.

The Professor (38:48.75)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (39:13.229)
That it's like every day you play you play a stable for which I think I I prefer the Scottish way where there's kind of a distinction between those.

Matt Considine (39:22.412)
Yeah, I want to dig in deeper to that because it does seem to the distinct way they play in Australia is more synonymous with the UK Scottish links golf than not. what are the what are those cultural distinctions? What are those things that you're like, this is isn't there was there anything that you saw that you said? Yeah, this is by far different than what we do at North Barrett.

Joshua Ralston (39:50.958)
I would say, know, Australia is, they would say themselves, and there's different parts of Australia, but golf culture-wise, in some ways, betwixt and between the UK and the US. I mean, even think about McKenzie himself, who's so influential on how golf is played in Australia, who had left England to go to Australia before he ends up in the US, right? So you have that sort of link between these places.

So architecturally you have some some leakage. I do think culturally it's a little bit more like the UK in terms of like they love to drink, but you drink after the round, right? You don't drink while you play the distinction between the competition and the formality. There's also a lot more of the typical sort of formalities that you might get in. In the UK, but they're also Australian, right? So there's an informality, a laid back nature that.

I also enjoy as a California, right? I mean, this is not about golf, but I stayed at Trinity College, University of Melbourne, which is sort of the first residential college in Australia. And it was like Cambridge, right? They have the what's called a high table dinner where you dress up and you wear the gown and you do the little ding. In Cambridge, when I go to give a lecture there, you got to wear a jacket and tie. They do the Latin prayer. In Australia, you put on your gown, but underneath it, you're wearing like a t-shirt, shorts.

And what they would call thongs or flip-flops, right? Like, it's that sort of in-between, like we're a little American and informal, but we're a little British too. And so you can see that even in the way that they would play. It's much more walking culture. It's much more competitive culture. But there's not something that's like distinctively surprising in terms of that.

The Professor (41:44.493)
Yeah, you bring up one thing that's always struck me about the game in Scotland. The few times I've got to go over there is that balance of like playing competitions in the formal competitions I've played in or matches that still balance with an informality. Like there's still, I think a lot of listeners might be like, they're real tense on the golf course. And it's like, you're not talking. It's like, no, between shots, it's, it's just like the American game and the conversations that you're having or whatever. It's just, no, the golf is very intentional that you're playing.

No matter what you're doing, the golf shots you're hitting and what's going on from scoring the game is very intentional, even if it is just a bounce game, which I've always appreciated about that. But like, yeah, the laid-backness is just as nice.

Joshua Ralston (42:28.599)
Yeah, the Aussies probably, I mean, you get pretty much, you get some banter in Scotland when you're playing a match, but there's a little bit more aggressiveness in the Aussie banter.

The Professor (42:43.116)
Matt Considine (42:43.372)
I don't mind it. I don't mind that. I like a little trash talk. Always maybe more of an external motivator professor, but it helps to focus sometimes when somebody throws a little jab my way. Okay, let's dial in.

The Professor (42:46.531)
That's.

The Professor (43:00.098)
Let's bounce back to playability a little bit more. Go over to Scotland firm, fast. That's what you dream of, especially along the Linksland courses that are up East Lothian through Fife area. You've touched on the Melbourne courses and the Sand Belt courses being firm and fast. In the same way or is playability a little bit different just in terms of how the ball reacts along the ground?

Joshua Ralston (43:23.287)
Yeah, I would say there's some resonance, but it's actually a little different. So the Melbourne Sand Belt would be 8 to 10 or 12, depending on how you count it. Courses that are in sort of Melbourne. Melbourne's on a sort of bay in southern Victoria, the second largest by population state in Australia. And it's got the best golf in Australia by far because it's sandy land.

A number of these courses moved from the city down to this part of Melbourne in the 1920s and by luck, Alastair Mackenzie visited Royal Melbourne and then was farmed out to the other courses to help with their bunkering. And so you have some of Mackenzie's principles, even in the courses designed by like Alec Russell or for Murcombe, where it's sort of often wide off the tee. You have possibilities to get the ball in play. You can play it on the ground.

There's not a lot of sort of heavy carries other than the bunkering. So the idea being that a 18 handicap can get their way around. And then the real trick is the approach shots for most of these courses. Some are slightly different. So there's a playability to that. I would say in general, the fairways because of the grasses are a little grabbier than they would be in a Lynx course because of the sort of

various forms of Bermuda that they're using. They're much faster than the Bermuda you would get in the States. They've got various proprietary blends. Where the difference comes is the greens. The greens are way faster and way firmer than you'll get in unless it's totally baked out in Scotland. Certainly faster, but also firmer, big bounces and often undulating. So you need to be approaching, you need to be thinking about angles.

You need to be thinking about your way in because it's not a stop and drop kind of golf. Even this year, I don't know if anyone saw the Australian Open at Royal Melbourne, the 18th hole coming down the final hole. And Cam Smith and Erasmus Nergard Peterson are tied. And Nergard Peterson puts his ball right at the pin. Looks like he's dead. So Cam Smith takes the smart conservative shot, put it in the middle of the green, but he hits the wrong side of

Joshua Ralston (45:47.636)
Sort of an edge in in the green and it ricochets 4050 feet further away from the pit still on the green, but if he's hitting a cut, it's going to nestle up to the pin if he's not. So I love that about Australia golf like it really is about how your ball plays after it lands, especially in the in the sand belt, but also a lot of the other Aussie courses. The fairways don't run quite. I mean they they they don't grab and stick, but they.

I was surprised, I thought I would get a little bit more run. So it took me a little while to the difference between in Scotland, you can really run it up. While in Australia, it's like you want to land it just short. I mean, this is exemplified even in Royal Melbourne, where they decided to, I think it's about 15 or 20 meters short of the green. They put in fescue for landing zones and then a different grass before. This is controversial, but the idea being that allows it to play more how.

mckenzie and russell envisioned so that would be that would be kind of a similarity in difference

Matt Considine (46:51.002)
I want to dig into that agronomy difference because, and I'll combine it with a question I knew I was going to have for you, which is, you know, my naivety or lack of knowledge around the sand belt, but I watch it anytime it's on TV because I love what you just described the bounce. And I did watch that final round of the Ozzy open was awesome. But there was, it looks like micro contours and not a ton of macro, like obviously

Yeah, we'll use Augusta, a place everyone knows, just these huge slopes and these huge landforms. When I watch on TV at least, and I know it's the old adage, oh, you can't see it. The TV does do it justice. But when I'm watching it, I don't see the macro side. I see more microcontours. And if that is true or not, depending on the seven or eight courses there in the sand belt, the agronomy being

a little stickier, a little higher. This was a point I heard Brian Schneider bring up recently that courses that do that intentionally are, you know, it's a nuanced thing, but it gives you lies. The ball, it's not just the slope, it's not just the contour, it's also the height of the grass and what friction is being created. So it's not always that like firm and fast is the end all be all. You have to match it to the contours of your golf course and the fairway.

if you want someone to have a ball above their feet below their feet, do those two things line up in your experience with the sand belt? Are they intentionally trying to do that?

Joshua Ralston (48:27.158)
Yeah, so what's interesting about the sand belt is you've got a variety of different courses. They're all in the same sort of family. So whether you want to talk about foods or wines like they're all the same kind of grape, but the style is going to be quite different. So Royal Melbourne, for instance, especially Royal Melbourne West has the most dramatic landforms and it has a few holes like 5-6.

Even 376 it could you could sit behind the 6 green which I did during the the Ozzy open and just watch people approach and you could say hi. This is a burned out version of Augusta. You know a big sweeping dog leg up and down up. You can hit the green and be repelled. You know 4050 yards or 40 meters in their mind short of the green and then you're chipping back and it's back at your feet. But that kind of whole it's got some of those because of a.

The Professor (49:22.295)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (49:25.202)
sort of land. I mean, that's what makes, in my opinion, Royal Melbourne West the best course in Australia. And for me, one of the best courses in the world is that dramatic land. Other courses like Kingston Heath, where they're playing the Aussie Open next year, the President's Cup in 2028. It's a much flatter and much more subtle piece of land. So it's got one dune that it kind of plays on, but nothing as dramatic as Royal Melbourne. So it's going to have a little bit more of those microcontours.

Although again, more than it would come across. Victoria, which is right across the street from Royal Melbourne, West and East, it's got this, the back nights got a little bit more up and down. So it kind of varies, but a lot of them are flatter than you think. And so then the drama comes from the bunkering and the contours of the greens. But I think, you know, Mike Clayton talks about Royal Melbourne.

West, especially, or the composite course, which is 12 falls from the West and six from the East. Sort of what it does well is separate a OK shot from a great shot. Like so many American golf courses, the great shot is 10 feet away and the OK shot is 25 feet away. At Royal Melbourne, the great shot is six feet away and the OK shot is 80 feet away because you've just missed that contour. You've missed that angle. So I mean, Royal Melbourne West by by far would be the closest one to Augusta.

The Professor (50:42.316)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (50:50.631)
In terms of the land forms but it's not gonna be as dramatic as that. The stickiness it's not you know again it's not super sticky but it and it is like hitting off a carpet it's not like Bermuda if you're playing in Florida or something like that and they've got it dialed but it will hold up right so you've got a ball below your feet or above your feet and it's not just gonna roll into this catch basin which does make it make it it trickier which then also.

Okay, what kind of shot do you want to hit now? Do you want to try to bump it with a 7 iron? What about this sort of contour that's playing away from you? It just makes you think and the bunkers are in different ways than pop bunkers. Extreme hazards. Your bunker game has to be on, cause they're knife edge. There's usually not that much sand. The greens are way faster, so it's not like.

Maybe just because I play pop bunker like they're not that hard unless you're in the front of the face. Maybe you can't get it close, but you can get it on the green and give yourself a 20 footer for for par at Royal Melbourne like or Kingston Heath, Victoria Woodlands, whatever it is like you've got to clip it and you could spin it and get really close to make it. But you can blade it and next thing you know you're playing ping pong.

Matt Considine (52:12.622)
You know, had this, I read a ton about that we went on a trip to the Surrey area that you love so much, Josh, last year. And we did a bunch of series of podcasts on it, but they're in links golf. feel like a lot of the bunkers are not all, but they're in the place that nature decided. Whereas when I was playing Surrey, I just remember reading these books and then actually playing the course I go,

because they don't have the same seaside conditions, the architect in 1920, Harry Colt, whoever it was, they got to put it wherever they wanted. there were some bunkers in the Heathland where I was like, I would much rather be in a pot bunker. Like it looks like a normal bunker, but I had no shot.

Joshua Ralston (52:55.381)
Yep. Yep.

Yeah, exactly. And I mean, the majority of the I mean, there's there's newer courses in Australia, fantastic newer courses. But it is sort of peak golden age. And so there it is strategic golf. It's why they're thinking about it in a way that is much more akin to to the sort of heathland courses of Royal St. George's or Swinley Forest or those kind of places where the bunkers are put where they're put for that the angles that they're trying to get you

Matt Considine (53:00.11)
Is

Joshua Ralston (53:29.919)
They want you to play towards the bunker like seven at Kingston Heath. It's a reachable par five even for us, but you know that it's making you think about the bunker where you're in your tee shot. Do you go right away from it? But then that's a harder angle and it brings it a different bunker for your approach. Or do you go try to just skirt it and then you've got the better angle in and that bunkers not in play. Now obviously we.

We know from Nico and everybody else you can't be that accurate, but there is an advantage for being closer to the threat in a way that is quintessential. So even other courses like Commonwealth, which is this little logo here, which has just been redone by Brian Schneider and Tom Doug. You know it's all about the sort of tilts and angles of the of the greens. It's it's subtle, but it'll get you real quick because of how quick the they're playing like they're stepping at 1314 so.

you're in trouble if you're above the whole.

The Professor (54:28.782)
So I'm gonna throw something out that might be a mischaracterization and I want you to say mischaracterization or not you get to assess it. One of the things I'm picking up here Josh, you if I think about the Scottish links, one of the things I think about like I can take my dad over there who's 75 and the way the ground's laid out and the course is laid out, he's gonna have a blast, right? He's gonna enjoy himself. could potentially kick my butt on the jubilee course because he plays, you know, hits it down the middle, Chuckie Fairways gets it up on the green, you know, shoots like net 63.

And so there to me, a lot of the styling of the courses ends up being really tied to the weather conditions, the wind that you're getting, right? And that's where like the creativity and the shop making. So you've got firm conditions with wind and weather, and that engages the mind. What I'm here picking up on in terms of the sand belt, it's much more the architectural design and the contouring that's engaging the brain, right? So you still, the commonality is the firmness across the two, but because the way the course was built, built, contoured,

the dramatic slopes of the greens. That's where all the engagement occurs. So it makes me wonder, like if I took dad to Australia, would he have as grand of a time? Certainly he'd have a grand time, but in terms of scoring his golf ball, and you've seen Chuckie Fairways, like what would that look like for someone like him across the two places?

Joshua Ralston (55:49.831)
Yeah, so I've I've wondered that what it is. It can get quite windy in Melbourne, so wind is another huge factor in different winds more dramatically. Usually there's a way into the green that doesn't require you to carry it and to be able to put spin on your paw. Usually there it's not going to have the I'm trying to think of a Melbourne course that would have that would force you to have a carry.

On the way in there is it there's if you're out of position you could, but a lot of them are going to give you a root in. So I don't think it's going to be one of those situations where. You're just picking up every time, but this is why they play stable for right, because you can get yourself in a position where like you know it's a double bogey or if you're playing a stroke play that's 11 or 12. I've had this happen at 15 at Victoria. It's a drivable. I mean one of the things that.

that Melbourne Sandbilt does better than anywhere else I've ever seen in the world is the short four. And the short four works for Chucky Fairways. And the short four works for you guys as plus handicaps. And the short four works for me as a mid to low single digit handicap because it's tempting us in a different way. The smart play on Victoria for me is like a seven iron a little out to the right, a pitching wedge on the green and two putt for a par. But

The Professor (57:08.557)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (57:18.506)
The temptation of the eagle is so much that the next thing you know, you're either in bunkers or or you're over the back of the green and or one of my favorite holes in the world is four at Woodlands. It's maybe 260, 270 yard par four. You're thinking there's no problem with this. I played it with Lucas Michelle, who was a mid am champ. And, you know, he's not I don't know. Maybe he's hitting a three iron off the tee, but.

The Professor (57:42.507)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (57:46.45)
The way that the green works just because you're near the green doesn't mean you're going to make a birdie, let alone a par, but somebody else we can still get around. So it's not quite as easy as as some of the like easier links, but it's not compared to some of the like a Florida course or a, you know, a pine valley where you're just like you've got to be golfing your ball to even survive. It still lets you do that.

And then if you I mean if you add in some of the Tasmanian courses that are dokes and cork wrenshaws and degrees and plates. Those ones you got your kangaroos in your wallabies and it's unlike anything else right like. You're hitting it you're hitting a drive over a wallabee or kangaroo like my wife played San Andrews Beach which is a do Clayton course she had never played a full 18 she's decent golfer she able she was able to get her ball around she made a few pars.

The Professor (58:20.087)
Right.

Joshua Ralston (58:44.138)
She picked up a few times, but it isn't like water carries, at least in Melbourne and Tasmania. So I do think there's always a way kind of in.

The Professor (58:44.172)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (58:56.406)
I'm glad you mentioned St. Andrews Beach. Of all the courses I've been just looking at as we were getting ready to chat with you, that really piqued my curiosity beyond any others, because I hadn't heard as much about it. It's not one of the major championship courses, but looking at aerials and landforms, man, I want a shot at that place. What was, you played it too, I assume, Josh, or?

Joshua Ralston (59:18.601)
Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, so I mean, I've played a lot of golf in Australia and I've I've played numerous places. I'm now on a ranking panel for Australian Golf Passport because I've played over like 25 and most of the top ones. One of the things that I think is that makes Australia better than Scotland or does better than Scotland is newer builds. There's different reasons for this, but if you think of the two barn boogles.

The new one, 7 Mile Beach that just opened just outside of Hope Art. Shout out to The Hat, Cape Wickham, Ocean Dunes, St. Andrews Beach. These are just incredible new builds with some of the leading architects of our generation on incredible sandy land. St. Andrews Beach, which is maybe about a little over an hour drive south of Melbourne. So it's not in the sand belt. was a dope course at Clayton.

The Professor (01:00:05.186)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:00:16.811)
It was originally going to be private, but it's now a public course. One of the best values, think under a hundred Australian dollars, which would be like what 70 US dollars for a course that Duke says is the most natural lay that he's ever played. You literally are going to have kangaroos jumping around, which is much cooler than the snakes. I mean, I've got a picture of my wife driving over kangaroos on 18.

The Professor (01:00:26.744)
Yeah.

Joshua Ralston (01:00:46.098)
And there you've got you know more of the Duke style or even at barn boogle the core Crenshaw. You've got more of the major contours where you can play a shot like purposefully up a hill to bring it back into a punch bowl so. If you if you go and I would suggest anyone to go, especially the Melbourne is is to not only try to get into these historic places, but some of these new builds which are.

Are absolutely incredible and and partly because I was there long enough. I've been able to go down some tiers so just like your Jim Hartzell's or you guys have your yeah, everyone's heard of your field or car news to the old, but have you played? I don't know what your version of macro Hanash or done average are like I've got my of those in Australia like you gotta get to bar when heads or you gotta play Woodlands. So I mean, that's one of the real benefits of staying in a place longer.

The Professor (01:01:32.78)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:01:39.516)
And getting to know it not and the city as well, right? And some of the culture around Aussie rules football and sporting culture in Australia and Melbourne. It doesn't look like San Francisco at all, which is where my family is from, but it's this weird mix of like a liberal city that sports mat. And I know people don't think of San Francisco as sports mat, but it is and it is both the like cultural like art and.

The Professor (01:01:59.31)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:02:04.234)
coffee capital of Australia, but it's also the sports capital of Australia, which is really cool. You got your F1 and then Aussie rules football. I was able to go to the the the the Aussie Open for tennis. So it's if you go down there, it's not just if you have a partner or a wife or husband, you know can go with them. Great wine at St. Andrew's Beach as well. So yeah, it's amazing. They should pay me for this advert.

The Professor (01:02:29.527)
I have to say.

Matt Considine (01:02:29.706)
I want to double click on something you said, because it really resonated with me. And that's the next tier is down, you know, and maybe prestige, a lot of the, let's call them golf tragics, which I occasionally fall into that bucket. But there's a big group, maybe 10, 20 years older than those of us on this pod, that they long for the days.

that North Berwick was undiscovered. They long for what their experience was at Carnoustie in the 80s. They long for all these things and they say, it's gone. It's shipped, it's sailed, it's done. What you just said was so profound to me and it actually makes me think of our friend Jim Hartsall and what I've learned from his books and conversations with Jim is that what you loved about your first visit to North Berwick or your first visit to Carnoustie, it is still out there.

It might just not be there. And you need to push yourself to go and especially a place like Scotland where there, you know, just so many wonderful off the beaten path places to see that. But also it sounds like the same is true in Melbourne from your experiences.

Joshua Ralston (01:03:44.061)
Yeah, I mean, in terms of Melbourne, like, it's not going to be the same as Scotland, where there's just tour buses running through, right? Like they do allow visitors. It's pricey. They allow visitors, but it's not catered to the tour group. I don't know the numbers, but it's far, far less than you would get in Scotland or England. So even when you go, it doesn't quite feel and just like cards on the table. I played with other other members most of the time.

The Professor (01:03:52.866)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:04:14.14)
Or all of the time almost, but there was a few times that I. Paid as just a regular visitor and you don't you. You're extremely well. You're hosted. know Victoria might have your flag of your country up. They might have a bag tag for you at Peninsula Kingswood or or Yara Yara, but it doesn't feel quite like a conveyor belt which Scotland can feel in the summer. And so whether you're trying to find your hidden gems in Scotland or.

places in Australia, especially if you move around a bit, or even like the coast of Northwest England outside of the open venues, you can get what you're looking for in North Berwick by Plain Hillside or West Lanks or Wallasee. They're still out there. They're just not the same ones. And Scotland especially has just, I mean, close to overrun in the summer.

The Professor (01:05:10.412)
Yeah. Yeah, I think you made, and going back to Australia, think it's, you made the point about the new stuff going on. And I would add onto that, not only the new builds, but the ongoing renovations, right? The number of courses, Claytas has touched over the years, Snyder, like Doke. You can go through and you're like, wow, like pick like Sydney, Melbourne, whatever, and draw a circle around it.

A lot of those courses have been touched or are getting touched on and they're improved. So that just creates so many good golf opportunities there that you don't have to hit the bucket list ones to enjoy yourself.

Joshua Ralston (01:05:45.245)
Yeah, and if I mean, depending on I mean, Melbourne and Tasmania to me are the places to go. But Sydney's got great options. Adelaide's got great options and to be there for a while. And as you said, a lot of these places have been on like 20 year projects, right? They're not these big. mean, Royal Sydney just did a big restoration renovation with Gil Hanswear closed forever. But Victoria, Kingston Heath, they had Doke or Mike Clayton or OCM slowly.

Rebuilding the Heathland rebuilding the land, eliminating trees and so any any of the options that you choose, you're going to be able to find a variety of ones so you may check off your New South Wales, but then you also play number the lakes or Manly Beach for something crazy or Royal Sydney. If you're in Sydney with family stuff, if you're golf tragic, you can't go to Australia and not play Melbourne though it is. I mean it is.

The Professor (01:06:30.562)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (01:06:41.165)
That's right.

Joshua Ralston (01:06:43.005)
the best golf city in or one of the best golf cities in the world.

The Professor (01:06:46.126)
One of my saddest moments in my life is, we were over for Sydney and you'd been so helpful. And, you know, I'm going, I'm like, just we're at conference in Sydney. We're up to Kansas for a little bit over to Auckland for a little bit. I'm like, Claire, just let's go down to Melbourne for two days. Just give me two days down there, play some golf. We'll be out. And it poured. Yeah. And I'm drinking out of a Warung cup. If you're in Sydney, go to Warung, one of the best coffee places.

Matt Considine (01:07:04.984)
Four cups of coffee. Let's just go for four cups of coffee.

Joshua Ralston (01:07:08.681)
And the coffee's amazing.

The Professor (01:07:14.712)
food and coffee I've ever been, but they all are. I think I drank literally three to four cups of coffee a day, styled coffee, just no place better. But it pissed rain for two and a half days. And it was just one of those gorgeous city too. One of the best cities in the world. would say that about Sydney as well. Claire and I were just in love with both of the cities. But at Melbourne, we had to sit and just watch it rain and rain. And I'm like, there's like 12 of the best golf courses in the world just right there.

it will like downpour July rain so not not golfable at all.

Joshua Ralston (01:07:51.485)
Yeah, you get I mean you get some various weather. It's funny, cause all the other Aussies make fun of Melbourne for having bad weather. But if you live in Scotland, you're like this is the best weather that you've ever lived in, so it doesn't get as humid as Sydney, which I like.

The Professor (01:08:03.222)
And I and I did get to play Sandy links across the street from rural Melbourne. Really, really cool story. I think it's one of those places, Josh, it'd be easy for people to overlook, but it's the upkeep is all done by the rural Melbourne staff, the grassing, everything. it was redone. forget by who recently, maybe it was plates, OCS, that's right. OCS did a renovation on it really quaint golf course. You know, it might not be over 6,000 yards. I played it with like.

Joshua Ralston (01:08:09.277)
Yeah.

Joshua Ralston (01:08:22.492)
OTM, yeah.

The Professor (01:08:32.078)
precept 1980 clubs that I just had the rent off the rack, like seven clubs and just had an absolute blast playing with a couple locals there. So again, yeah, when you put yourself on good turf with good design, it's a home run no matter where you're at.

Matt Considine (01:08:51.384)
Josh, I got one last, maybe boring question, but it's been on my mind, because I've looked at putting trips together for this specific sand belt destination, and the price tag's expensive, no matter which way you slice it. And so it's a saver for most American golfers that say. it's hard to, I mean, if I was ranking it, we've done some similar stuff throughout the US and...

a mix of public and private, but that caliber of golf is probably still more expensive minus the plane flight, perhaps. And then it seems to me that there's Australia as a price tag for the visiting golfer just slightly below that maybe for this type of caliber. And then Scotland, although prices have been rising is slightly below that. Maybe Ireland's a little bit, well, depending on where you are on Ireland, there's actually a decent difference.

I bring it up for the visiting golfer, because I know those numbers fairly well now, because I've looked at it. What about the member? The member, I mean, you I know I could hear the, when you said $500 a year for your membership in Scotland, I could hear the collective gasp of our audience, but where does that fall? I would imagine US on our membership fees is on the highest side still for this level of golf.

Scotland maintains it with visitor gauvers. So you get that's the low side of the scale. Is it similar for Australia? Where do they fall on the spectrum?

Joshua Ralston (01:10:24.071)
Yeah, obviously we're more than 500 now, but we're still way, way less than you would ever want to play. It seems to me, I don't know all the exact numbers, but I've got a general sense that the Scottish, I mean, the Aussie courses would probably be for members around the same kind of numbers that the Heathland courses are paying. So significantly more in terms of adjoining fee and membership than Scotland, but significantly, significantly less than even your

golf club that you've never heard of in the United States. still in reach for a lot of people. So, you you're looking at a joining fee that's not anywhere close for the majority of them, not even like the top top Royal Melbourne. Fees very feasible for a lot of people that are big golfers. And then the green fees, I mean, their annual dues would be higher, but not.

So I kind of compare it to like the London e-courses in terms of the general price and even as a visitor again like if you want to play the thing is if you fly to Australia I want to play Royal Melbourne West. Maybe I want to play Royal Melbourne East. I want to play Kingston Heath. I want to play Victoria. I completely understand that. I think you should play them, especially Royal Melbourne West and Kingston Heath and Vic.

Although I know some people find well mother West a little disappointing on first play a little bit like the old course they don't quite get it it doesn't. I disagree but there are a next level of courses that if you're planning a trip your Commonwealth your woodlands your St Andrews beaches that can start saving you a lot of money and the quality is you know because the rankings as you know are are somewhat subjective.

And if you, if you do Tasmania, man, like you're playing, if you play barn boogle, the two courses there and the short course there, and then seven mile beach, uh, which is right in Hobart. And then once, uh, King Collins dormer finished their second course, you're talking for maybe, maybe top 100 top 150 in the world courses that are under 200 us each, uh, maybe even under 150 us.

The Professor (01:12:40.184)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:12:43.848)
I don't. So it is it is a big price, especially if you're trying to tick off your New South Wales, your Royal Melbournes. But there's there's a next year like, OK, I'm going to I want to check off Kingston Heath or Royal Melbourne, but I don't need to do all those. I can do Woodlands. I can do Como. can do Huntingdale. Just reopen. I've heard him. I was able to walk it before it opened and heard amazing things. So it is pricey. I'm not going to deny that. But.

Matt Considine (01:12:43.886)
as well.

Joshua Ralston (01:13:13.256)
I don't, I think the biggest ones, the numbers so big that some of the other ones are trying to sort of find a way, come to our place, come to Commonwealth, come to Woodlands. And you'll get a lot of the Sand Belt experience and you might even enjoy it more than if you just get those two that are top 25 in the world.

The Professor (01:13:37.47)
I'm glad you brought up New South Wales. We hadn't brought that up yet just as an Australia course. Shout out Scott Warren. Looking forward to seeing that place since it's post renovation. But now that we are on the topic of specific courses, I'm going to put you on the spot. me someone's coming to Scotland that's used Eithlothian, St. Andrew's area, the five courses you're taking them to.

Joshua Ralston (01:14:00.232)
So I'm only allowed to do East Coast. I'm not, can't.

The Professor (01:14:04.928)
Yeah, East Lothian up through St. Andrews, so the Fife area, just that will remove everything west and going up to like Cruden Bay area, Doernach area, like...

Joshua Ralston (01:14:14.172)
Yeah, so obviously I'm going to make sure the three.

Matt Considine (01:14:18.318)
Kevin, hold on real quick before you answer this. Kevin, we don't get a lot of hate mail at the backdrop, by the way, the backdrop at newclub.golf. But when we do, it's usually angry Scotsman from the West Coast air share that are like, you guys need to...

Joshua Ralston (01:14:31.74)
Yeah.

yeah, Ersher and Angus, Like Carnesity, Panmere, that's why I asked, because I love Panmere and I love Carnesity as well.

Matt Considine (01:14:38.09)
Yes, yes.

The Professor (01:14:43.208)
We could, that's, we can do, I would include Carnoussi and Panmere in this list. I think that's a close enough drive. We'll include those too. Cause Panmere, mean.

Joshua Ralston (01:14:48.36)
OK, but West Coast is West Coast is the West Coast is amazing. I haven't been to to to McRae and those places. I love Ersher. It's great. It's underrated. There's so many great places. Glasgow Gales Irvine West Kilbride, not only just the big ones, but if we're talking the East, if we're talking the East Coast, obviously the there's three for me that are non negotiables because they're three of my favorite courses in the world.

Matt Considine (01:14:50.126)
I'm telling you, West Coast is just pissed. I'm just calling it out now.

Matt Considine (01:15:06.574)
Brassy.

Joshua Ralston (01:15:16.552)
And they give you different things. Obviously the old course is the old course for a reason. I don't ever rank it because it's too generous. It is a different thing, but it has to be done and the more you play it, the better it gets. The problem is that most people only play it once. I've been lucky enough. I've only played two or three times, but I've walked it in tournaments tons of times and that's the best experience. Yeah, the Walker Cup.

The Professor (01:15:27.342)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (01:15:41.152)
It shines. It shines in a tournament. Absolutely. It's amazing.

Joshua Ralston (01:15:45.468)
Following my friend Elvis Smiley playing the Dunhill like don't go for the open. Go for something else. So the old course number one now the two in East Lothian that I would have to play of course are my favorite course in Scotland. Muirfield because of the routing because of how it unfolds because it doesn't have I mean other than maybe 13 and 17 like a world class hole, but it's just every single hole is a world class hole and then North Barrett.

The Professor (01:15:51.085)
Yeah.

Joshua Ralston (01:16:14.172)
My next two, it's really tricky. Do I want you to play something quirky and small like Kill Spindy or even Muscle Bra Old if you're a history buff? I am not a huge fan of Krayle.

The Professor (01:16:25.664)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:16:33.041)
So I...

The Professor (01:16:33.494)
You got to dodge bullets out of Crayo when you're playing there on a busy day. You got to dodge. Again, Dr. Daris almost gotten fisticuffs out there.

Joshua Ralston (01:16:36.261)
Yeah, I don't want to die. If it was 12 holes it'd be perfect.

Matt Considine (01:16:38.838)
I love it. I love the chaos. I don't know why I love Krayle.

Joshua Ralston (01:16:46.479)
Yeah, exactly. He's got too much speed for that. I so I think after the. After those after those three, I think I want I want to make sure you get something a little fun and quirky. I haven't played Ann Strother enough and because I'm here in East Lothian, I mean it's going to have to be like kill spendy for the sort of fun of short over muscle, but old and then.

Matt Considine (01:16:46.742)
Yeah, that broke his brain. His big old beautiful brain was just broken after playing Krayol.

Joshua Ralston (01:17:16.399)
Either pan mirror Ely. And. I'm going to go with pan mirror, I think you gotta play a golf course that doesn't have a single view to understand that golf can be in a kind of ugly down and still be great. So those those five.

The Professor (01:17:18.274)
Hmm, speaking to my soul.

Matt Considine (01:17:33.314)
I love that. I love that mix. That is such a great mix, Josh. you done. That's my, I'll make that my top five next.

The Professor (01:17:40.59)
All right, yeah, Panmere, Ely, and North Berwick, I could play all three of those the rest of my life. Just choose a single one of them every day, seven days a week rest of my life. I'd be as happy as could be. All right, now give me your three, give me.

Joshua Ralston (01:17:47.781)
Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (01:17:53.858)
But just the acknowledgement.

Joshua Ralston (01:17:54.127)
And I'd end with you. mean, I got to end at North Bear because I think that I wanted to stay with you as the last, especially because you got a birdie chance at 18.

The Professor (01:18:01.057)
Yeah, that's yes. All right. Now go to Melbourne.

Matt Considine (01:18:06.046)
Not if you're 30 yards long, right, Josh? That's not the place to be, right?

The Professor (01:18:07.927)
Hahaha

Joshua Ralston (01:18:10.024)
Yeah, it's not the best but it's better than we reason we just had a match with the University of Edinburgh and the kid I was playing we have four ball matches There was two kids one of them was like a plus three the other was like an eight handicap But he had incredible ball speed so it was either all over the place or right down the middle He hit it over all of the houses down the right onto onto the next street Like so choose I've never I've heard it happen, but I've never seen it

The Professor (01:18:30.382)
I was gonna say scary hole.

Joshua Ralston (01:18:38.907)
And we were just waiting for two streets. If you play North America, so not the house, he didn't hit a car, he didn't hit a house, he didn't hit the next side of houses, he hit a car in the next street over. Anyway, so five in Melbourne. So again, I'm gonna give myself greater Melbourne. So the Sand Belt plus the Bellerain and the Mornington Peninsula. first.

Matt Considine (01:18:39.224)
again.

The Professor (01:18:40.717)
to crash.

The Professor (01:18:49.805)
Oof.

Matt Considine (01:18:51.682)
Yeah, that's a

The Professor (01:18:53.964)
Yeah, five in Melbourne now.

The Professor (01:19:03.148)
Yeah, you can go down to the beach.

Joshua Ralston (01:19:07.495)
Royal Melbourne West 100 % have to do it. It is the origins of great Australian golf. Then I think I'm going to. Do Victoria, which is just right across the street. You can even do 36 in a day. You can see the same land, but slightly different. It's where Peter Thompson, Jeff Ogilvie grew up playing. They've.

got an amazing history of producing great golf course, great golfers. I do those two. Then I would do Barwin heads, which is in the Bellerin peninsula. It's right on the water. feels like an English seaside coast meets Australia. It's got a grand Fista looking out over the ocean. Next stop is Tasmania and then Antarctica. And it just, was the most lengthy of the courses. So I loved.

I love that it's a ways away, but it's worth the drive, great town as well. So that's got me three that are quite different. Then I'm gonna do, I guess I have to do Kingston Heath if you let me play it's froze course as well the same day. It's got a nine hole par three at the back. So you can do both the 27 and I'm gonna count this as one experience.

The Professor (01:20:30.695)
We'll allow it. That's your warmup range.

Joshua Ralston (01:20:33.223)
And then finally it's between woodlands which I love a short strategic it's got a great stretch of holes or I've got a real soft spot for peninsula Kingswood South North gets all of the attention it's big it's bold it's OCM it's it's beautiful it's in your face but the first golf course I played in Australia was peninsula Kingswood South.

And the last golf course that I've played since being in Australia was Peninsula Kingswood South. And so it's a little more subtle. It still moves up and down the land. And it's sort of a little bit more of it. I think it represents the sort of more modern interpretation of Sandbilt. So I think I would do that over Woodlands because you need one of these some of the classics, but it is a modern interpretation redone by Klates.

The Professor (01:21:26.136)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:21:27.789)
and Ogilvy, Calking and Mead when they were still together. I think to show sort of some of the newer interpretations of golf in Melbourne, I do that, but I could change my mind when I'm back and play Huntingdale, because it's the newest version of that. So that would give you kind of a different range. St. Andrew's Beach is hard to leave off, but it doesn't speak to me in the same way as the Tasmanian courses. So, yeah.

The Professor (01:21:51.619)
Yeah.

The Professor (01:21:55.183)
All right, now for you, gotta choose one of those, that list of five to put you on the spot. And this is for you, the golf, rest of your life. You gotta choose one or the other of those five that you chose. Where would you place yourself?

Matt Considine (01:21:55.47)
I know you both, you both.

Joshua Ralston (01:22:09.095)
So if I could play one golf course the rest of my life or if I could be a member of one golf course, the rest of this is not your question. It would be Rome, Albert. It's my it's like it is to me what done average is to Jim. What macro Hanish was the Bamberger? I've got incredible friends there. Memories drinking in the clubhouse during the Australian Open, walking the course, hitting shots the day after. So if it's just one, it's it's that.

The Professor (01:22:23.352)
Yeah.

Joshua Ralston (01:22:38.15)
If it's all five, it's Scotland. Of course, no, no, I love, I love, love, love Melbourne.

The Professor (01:22:42.318)
true academic, changing the question to the one he wants to answer.

Matt Considine (01:22:45.818)
Ha

The Professor (01:22:47.596)
I think that's a great answer by the way. That's right, that's right.

Matt Considine (01:22:48.47)
Answer a question with a better question, right Kevin? That's what you taught me.

The Professor (01:22:58.094)
Mm-hmm.

Joshua Ralston (01:23:00.678)
But I just think if this like let's say Old Course versus Royal Melbourne, I'm going to give it to Royal Melbourne personally. I get why not. But it's just like Muirfield's better than Kingston Heath and North Baric is better than any of the likes. So it's that next tier. think that it's the Australia's got incredible depth. But I just think I can't I can't. This is this surprised me because I thought I would say

I thought I would say Australia if you said East Lothian versus the same.

The Professor (01:23:35.88)
Just if I said just one, I could I have to say, you know, friends with Josh off off the air. The text when you're at Royal Melbourne, the text that I get from you in the conversation is different than when you're not right. Like I can tell like, there's something in your soul when you're texting from the property, like it's it's cool.

Joshua Ralston (01:23:49.734)
But there's also, there's something also about being a visitor, but being familiar, right? So like, it's grown on you, you learn things. And so I feel both at home, but it's not my home. So I don't see all the crap in the way that I see all the crap here.

The Professor (01:23:58.499)
Yeah.

The Professor (01:24:07.106)
That's Beautifully said.

Matt Considine (01:24:08.088)
Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, this question's on my mind after you just so eloquently walked us through the choices you made there and it just speaks to the whole region of whether it's East Lothian or it's the Highlands or it's Pfeiffer or it's Ayrshire or it's Melbourne or Tasmania. It's like, they are just hitting it.

like home run after, you know, the culture of those places really matter. And where my head goes, and we just got back from a really great trip with members to Broom Sedge. And it's one of the newer courses in this, I guess you'd call it an emerging sand belt in the Carolinas, Josh. My question is, you the areas like Pinehurst that have a lot of history and some new builds in there, there's now these,

Joshua Ralston (01:24:50.277)
it.

Matt Considine (01:25:01.334)
new sand belts with private clubs, many of them welcoming model. Even if we go, gosh, I mean, what's happening in Texas and Denver and Wisconsin, Sam Valley, there's the race for sand in a lot of ways. And I think what I see is the replication of what you just described in those places, if you have enough concentration, really good golf and the stewardship of it and the protection.

What would you advise as somebody who you're just so thoughtful in all this stuff and you're obviously observing beyond your own shots, you're observing the cultures, you're observing what makes these areas great? What would your advice be to these places? If you were talking to like a megaboard, the union of Aiken sand belt golfers, which doesn't exist or the, know, links trust of Pinehurst with all the clubs and all the courses.

And you're thinking out a hundred years. What would your advice be to them to.

Joshua Ralston (01:26:05.285)
Yeah, I think what's interesting is that the Sandbell and Adelaide are, they still have like a club culture. And I think Pinehurst used to, or maybe still does, but the question for me is like, what is going to be the club with this sort of travel club? The idea that you're going to, I'm a member of Sandhills, but I don't really live there. I'm a member in Aiken, but I may not live there. One of the benefits of course of Scotland and Australia is the vast majority of the people live there. However,

Barbougal is really modeled after your bandins and these like the idea of a place that for Australians they go to every year and they have those cultural historical memories. So I guess one of the questions for these new builds all over America is like how do you sustain an actual local presence with openness to others? And I know Seven Mile is going to have these debates as they go forward. It sounds like Broomsteadge is moving in that direction too with the sort of private, the sort of almost Scottish

English model. But I think one of the questions about some of these American places is like, how do you actually have a local club culture? Or is that just, are these just places for golf sickos that want to be able to have access?

Matt Considine (01:27:19.106)
Got it. Yeah, it's, man, that's a different angle on my same thought, which is how much of the club culture can you recreate when nobody lives there?

Joshua Ralston (01:27:32.538)
Yeah, exactly.

Matt Considine (01:27:34.184)
And I think, hell, I founded a business on the idea that you do need to be local, which is hard if you don't on the golf courses, but we've tried to figure that out. anyways, they're remarkably good places. They started with the same architecture, like a lot of what you were describing with some of the short fours and things. They've really embraced in those parts of these projects. And I love it. I just love it. But I want the culture to match. When you go to these new places, you just...

Joshua Ralston (01:28:01.339)
Let's get.

Matt Considine (01:28:04.334)
you want to see that strong culture, which will ensure that they sustain, think. Professor, I don't have any other cues for Josh, just other than what introductions can you make when we make our trips. I will say we pride ourselves on not over editing podcasts and just kind of conversations out just like we would if we were all sitting at the pub.

There's one piece I will be editing out because I need to convince my wife to go to Australia to make this work and your whole comment about snakes. I wish you wouldn't have said that. So I'm gonna go back, I'm gonna remove this, I'm gonna remove the snake thing. We can't have that, she's not going.

The Professor (01:28:41.996)
Leave the kangaroos and the wallabies.

Joshua Ralston (01:28:45.005)
I only saw one and there's anti-venoms everywhere. yes, seven of the most ten venomous snakes in the world are in Australia, but they're not that common. If you've played in Southern California or Arizona, you used to just be a little attentive. But the wine's great, the food's great. It's an incredible place to be. So thanks for having me on.

Matt Considine (01:28:48.876)
And it was dead, okay.

Joshua Ralston (01:29:10.745)
Just a pub, you mentioned Scott Warren already and Matt Malika. If you want like deep dives into individual courses all over Australia, their podcast is a great place to get that.

The Professor (01:29:19.896)
That's fantastic.

Matt Considine (01:29:21.89)
Yeah, I've found that in my own, you know, stumblings and yeah, they do a great job. That's it. We'll, we'll add that to the show notes professor. and, another shout out, Mike Clayton, the fact that we've had more side conversations, professor with Clayton's than, than a lot of folks. And the fact we've never had him on this podcast, maybe we have him listen to this from Josh and we'll have him just tear apart the whole thing, you know, let him know he's not afraid to tell his own opinion. We got to get him on the show.

The Professor (01:29:47.182)
He's not afraid to tell how it is. That's right.

Joshua Ralston (01:29:51.269)
Yeah, he's he's true true Aussie in that sense. All right guys. Thanks so much for having me

Matt Considine (01:29:52.333)
We gotta go.

The Professor (01:29:54.818)
That's right. Appreciate it, Josh.

Matt Considine (01:29:57.25)
Cheers. Thanks Josh. And thanks everybody else for listening. If you're not a subscriber of our show, I'm gonna make that plea. Join our group here. Subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you enjoyed the conversation with Josh, like that's what we try to do is just find really thoughtful people. They don't need to be famous. They don't need to be pro golfers. They just need to have a sincere interest and passion in this game. So give us a review. Tell us what you like, what you don't like. It's the backdrop.

Across all channels as well social the backdrop or the backdrop golf I think on Twitter and and one other one And if you want to connect with the professor and I our stuff is in the show notes as well She doesn't know it. We got some big surprises coming up. Don't we professor for everybody? Coming here here in May June, maybe ish time frame, but some cool Adjustments to to the pod that I think our listening audience is gonna gonna really enjoy

Thanks to our partners at Titleist, the number one ball in golf. We'll catch you guys all on the next one.