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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Cody Buriff
Welcome to this episode of the Restorative Man podcast. My name is Cody Burriff and I get to host today and I'm joined by my good friend and coworker, Jesse French. Jesse, what's going on, man?
Jesse French
Cody
Barth, it's great to see your face, even if it's on a screen, Dude, so I want to quickly take the listeners back to about a year or so ago. We were in a meeting and you had this great idea. said, hey, what if we, as Restoration Project, gathered a bunch of different voices from experts and thought leaders and wise folks, and we gathered a conversation around what it means to be a life-giving restorative man. And lots of like developments and we're like, I love this. And to fast forward, we're actually having said gathering and said conversation here in September. something that we're really excited about because the hope around that gathering around the summit is what it looks like to have a conversation around a hopeful version of Mass Community.
I think we all could probably point out ways in which masculinity can be incredibly harmful, can be incredibly destructive. We could probably talk about the ways in which there's questions of like, what actually is the God intended expression of masculinity? And so we said, man, let's gather folks to talk about men living their lives in the way of Jesus in a way that is hopeful that is actually good news for them, for those around them and for the world. And so we're doing that, which is exciting. Yeah.
It's going to be next month and we have a, just a great lineup of folks that are speaking into that. Like rattle off some names.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, yeah, right now we've got John Tyson and Mark Patterson and my gosh. We've got lot of people. I think what's really fun is like we've got pastors, we've got spiritual leaders, we've got authors, we've got psychologists, we've got scientists, know, we've got people from all over the place. We even have a fighter pilot like. so, yeah, pretty cool. Men and women speaking into what
Jesse French
the
Cody Buriff
Could a hopeful version of masculinity look like? Pretty excited about it. Yeah, they are all pre-recorded interviews. So some of the interviews that we're going to release during the summit have already been done. Right. Have already actually happened and we're kind of formatting them and we're going to release some of them one day, some of them the next day, some of them the next day. And that'll kind of be the format of it. So you as the like watcher listener, we'll be able to engage with it on your schedule that day and what works best for you. Right.
That's kind of helpful in that sense.
Jesse French
Hopefully there's some flexibility with that.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, exactly. then after the fact, all of those interviews, all that content is felt. think right now we're thinking it'll be about four days of content will live in the Grove Collective permanently there. So it'll always be accessible for anyone who is in the Grove Collective, which is our online community. Right. so also with that, we had the crazy idea of like, okay, what if we pulled out some snippets of some of those conversations?
and got to tease it a little bit in this podcast. so this week and the next several episodes of the Restorative Man podcast, we're going to reveal little snippets of some of the interviews that are part of the Restorative Manhood Digital Summit coming here at the end of September. yeah.
Jesse French
So who do we have today? Cody, who is the test case? Yes.
Cody Buriff
We've got a guy I first heard from him, man, it was at least a decade ago. He has written many books. He has been responsible for a ton of healing for a ton of people. Dan Allender, Dr. Dan Allender, and actually Chris Bruno, the guy who started Restoration Project, trained under Dan. And so this is them having that piece of the summit will be Chris and Dan having a conversation. so we just pulled a small snippet of it.
It's a very small snippet where Dan is talking about disillusionment.
Jesse French
And like, don't leave people disillusionment, not the like
Cody Buriff
But,
Jesse French
I think really important, which is part of the reason why we chose it.
Cody Buriff
So yeah, definitely. Yeah. I mean, we all experience it. Let's be real. So let's talk about it and how we deal with it and what it is and what it could be actually.
Jesse French
Yep. Awesome. So you're gonna play the little quote from Dan?
Cody Buriff
Play the clip right now and then we'll debrief it from there, right? So here we go.
Dan Allender
So when you begin to get disillusioned, and I think that it requires an ongoing disillusionment. So for many men who are disillusioned and they're fighting to escape it, that's a mistake. We need to be disillusioned that there are ways to escape the reality of what it means to be a man. But on the other hand, when you finally, in some sense, get closer to disillusionment.
It's easy then to just live with distraction or addiction or a combination of the two. And that is gaming. Reels, ongoing watching of other people living vicariously. And I think that is one of the great compromises in part out of the potential of social media and other forms of entertainment.
Jesse French
Thanks.
Cody Buriff
All right, we'll cut it off there.
Jesse French
Man, Cody, so much there, even in what, like a 30 or 45 second little clip. Thanks a lot, Dan, for just, you know, dropping the wisdom bomb. But you said it just a second ago, part of the reason we wanted to highlight this was the reality that disillusionment is a non-negotiable. Like, I think that's some of what Dan is saying. And what you just said is like, it is a fact of life.
that there is no scenario where we can just silver bullet our way through the right amount of work ethic and wisdom and cleverness and, you know, whatever to just say like, our lives are perpetually up into the right. It is fact of life. And so the question is not, if you will experience it, it is what will you do with it? Yeah.
Cody Buriff
Totally. mean, that's exactly what you're talking about that kind of up into the right. That is the illusion. Yeah. I wasn't being dissed, right? This idealistic mindset that things are going to be butterflies and rainbows and puppy dogs and cups all the time, you know, you know, that's just not life.
Jesse French
Yeah.
That's true. Yep. So Cody, what even just as the starting place. Yeah. And you're starting to get into it, like fill in the blank. Like this illusion is what?
Cody Buriff
Yeah, okay, so not looking at Webster. I would say disillusionment is the unraveling of a picture of what you thought things were supposed to be like.
Jesse French
Yeah. I love that word unraveling. That's a great descriptor of that. I think that makes sense, right? There is this picture of what we thought life was going to be about this orientation, this pursuit of whatever that goal outcome image was and the recognition that that's not possible. There's so much struggle related to that. that sort of crisis of what we thought was possible is no longer, is no longer true.
Cody Buriff
Jesse, how... I think it'd just be helpful for people to hear, like, and kind of get some ideas. Like, what are some of the areas of life that people might experience disillusionment in, and how have you experienced it?
Jesse French
Yeah. I mean, so like broadly speaking, I think it's probably any space where we risk hope, where we risk desire, then disillusionment is present. Like if we don't do that, right? If we play it safe, if we're not going to risk the sense of possibility of newness of change, right? That seems like, then we can insulate ourselves. If there is no pursuit of that, then we insulate ourselves from disillusionment.
But so really, right? When we do risk that hope and that risk that desire, like now the realm of disillusionment is possible. And so obviously that turns in or is present in categories, right? Like our career, our relationships with our kids, our friends, our spouse, our relationships with ourselves, right? You know, and we'll get into some of that. But again, I think that broader category of when we have a desire in pursuit of something, now disillusionment is present.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, no, that's really good. I like the contrast there. And it's not even a contrast of like, it's the hand in hand of hope. And then the possibility of disillusionment and disappointment. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah.
And again, like I think probably all of us when we think through our lives, right, can identify the spaces of places where we have walled ourself off from that of just like, man, let's play this one safe. Because when I did risk my hand got burned and like rather than feel that disillusionment again, pull back, aim lower.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. that's good. Yeah. Just what's an area or way in which you have found yourself disillusioned and wanting to engage it in those ways or at least considering it. Yeah.
Jesse French
Yeah, I think the one, I mean, there's a lot, right? Like I actually sit and think about it's like, wow, this is really prevalent. I think one that we were talking about even before we hit record that feels true for me is I think I feel the frustration, the confusion, the disillusionment of, man, I thought if you would have asked me 10, we'll just say 10 years ago,
Like, and in some ways that was a time where there was, I feel like more engagement into my own heart, responding to like Jesus's invitation to engage some of the painful places of my life. If you would have asked me 10 years ago, like, Hey, what, do you think will be true around those places of my own heart? As you step into this in the next 10 years, I would have said, I'll be a lot further ahead. Like significant healing will be different.
or will happen. Like the way in which I engage other people will be more patient, will be more settled. There will be less like off the cuff, impatient, angry responses when like those would have been the things that I would have said. yeah. And I think when I look at it, I'm 10 years in, right? It's like, there's some progress made, but not as much as I probably would have hoped or thought. And so there's some disillusionment of this work has started and yet like,
The needle has not moved as much as I would have expected.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, that makes sense. wonder like, this is maybe extra specific to you, but it's like, I wonder how much the disappointment or disillusionment is based on that, like, that illusion that you had in place of like what you're comparing yourself to.
Jesse French
Yes. And not to get too clever down the like whatever metaphor piece of it. But I think that is of which so much of that I think place that Jesus wants to speak to or healing is desired is like, and what is the orienting principle? Right. Is it the like illusion of control progress success or is there another way that is possible? Like even that to sit with the space of another way feels. And here we are at square one.
So how does that strike for you, Cody? Like when you think about the disillusionment that you've experienced in your own life or are right now, like, yeah, other, is there an example or two that comes to mind?
Cody Buriff
That's good. That's good.
Yeah, I mean, like you said, it's everywhere in a lot of ways. And I think the way that probably jumps out at me first, the quickest right now, and I would bet that a lot of our audience experiences this, at least to some degree, is some disillusionment around my faith. let me add a preface to this and just say I'm a Christian.
Jesse French
I'm done with that.
Cody Buriff
I am not leaving Jesus. there's, it's, you know, none of that, right? I think it's actually, it's less about God, specifically, although there is some of that there, if I'm being real honest. I think it's more around our expression of our devotion to Him and what that looks like and maybe even the church in general. And so I grew up as a pastor's kid. I grew up in church three times a week. You know, we were there early and late.
I have worked in ministry my entire adult life. have been like elder and elder candidates in churches and helped plant churches and I'm recording this in a church that I go to right now. So I still attend rich people, right? Like, and like, I think in the same way that when I think back like 500 years ago, there was this guy named Martin who like nailed these things to the door of the Catholic church and freaked everybody out.
You know, 1500 years before that, there was this guy named Jesus who walked into his father's house and flipped tables and freed pigeons and got a bullwhip and all that stuff. Like, I'm not overturning tables or anything. And I feel this sense of like something isn't right in the church, in the expression of the church. I love the church. I think I had much more like illusioned hope that the current expression of church was the answer.
I think something there needs to shift. And my experience of it, I am currently not enjoying, generally speaking. So I don't love walking in on Sunday morning to the show. All right. Like people, for the most part, know, sermons are fine, music's fine, whatever. It's this machine. And it's not about the specific church that I go to.
people who are from my church listening to this, like it's not about that. It's in general, that's an area where I feel disillusioned and I don't know the answer. But I know that like, I think I am now far more confident that my experience of God and my enjoyment of him and my experience of his delight in me is not directly tied to the current cultural expression of
quote unquote, church.
Jesse French
Sure. Yep. And thanks for saying that. I appreciate just the honesty and the like reality of where you're at. I wonder Cody, like, how are you tempted to handle and hold your disillusionment? Like, you know, and this is not to like skirt around like so appreciate what you brought up. So valid. And when you think about the disillusionment around faith, what are the ways that you're tempted to respond to that?
specific and more like internally, how do I engage with this?
Cody Buriff
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think there's, me back up a tiny bit. And there's this big word called deconstruction that has been tossed around for a long time. I don't know, long time, 10 years. And there's like the difference between demolition and deconstruction. And we don't nuance that very well in the ways that we talk about things. think deconstruction can be really helpful and good. Demolition, probably not so much. And I think many people are tempted to just demolish.
and basically throw the baby out with the bath water and like, okay, the church has hurt me or the church is fake or whatever, blah, blah. And so like, screw it. I'm never going back there, you know? And have I had that temptation? Like maybe, yeah, probably a little bit. Like I think the reality that I have kids and they're connected and I want them to be raised with other Christians, like that has helped keep me tethered a bit in reality. I think I'd be more tempted if that weren't the case, to just kind of like ditch it altogether.
and try to make my own expression of whatever. I don't think that's actually the answer. I don't think that honors people. I don't think that honors the Lord. don't think that makes... There are people I know that are in that situation right now. And I'm not coming against them in what I'm saying, but I don't think that that is the end all be all answer. But it's a strong temptation to chuck faith altogether, to try to start something new that's...
you know, more in line with that expression, that's another temptation. I think ignoring it maybe is another temptation. And even like returning to just play church over and over again is another temptation. And I I don't feel that one as much because I'm really principled, but I know that people come back and play church because they think it's the right thing to do. And that's a strong temptation.
Jesse French
It's interesting. of those. Yeah, both of those examples I think are helpful. Like, and again, if we just kind of use that as an overlay for, say whatever, whatever the arena that we are feeling disillusioned with, like those responses and Alan, or gets it to a little bit and his quote, but you're saying, which is helpful, like, look, when we feel disillusioned, it is so easy to just say, like, let's take the grenade to it and just like blow it all up. One option.
Another option, right? Is like, let's head in sand, you know, ignore it. Hope that, you know, my dissatisfaction will just kind of go away. Right. Yeah. Again, making sense or, know, and then Alanor hits on it of like, or let's just numb it out. Like let's find any number of the numerous ways of which we can numb our dissatisfaction out and ensue that that way. Yeah. Yeah. And all of those, will say both, they make so much sense.
Right? When we think about actually sitting with what disillusion is of like, thought this was true. I had this hope and it is not being realized. Like that is a heartbreaking place to be. And so any one of those three options makes sense.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's the thing that like, it's good that you named the heartbreak. I think we need to be okay with sitting in some of that heartbreak. Yup. And naming it and honoring it. And yeah, you're right. Like numbing it out works for a little while. Like putting our head in the sand works for a little while. Grenading it kind of feels good sometimes for a little while. none of those actually solve the actual problem of the broken illusion that we had.
Jesse French
to see.
Yeah, yeah. Right. That again, well said, right, the illusion of this will go away by numbing, escaping, numbing, ignoring or blowing it up. Right. And of course, like we know that not actually not actually true.
Cody Buriff
total ****. Doesn't actually work.
Jesse French
Cody, what would you say for people that acknowledge like, Hey, I can articulate the sense of disillusionment in some area of my life and a desire to respond differently than those three kind of common ways of reacting. The acknowledgement of the heartbreak, like speak a little bit more around some helpful pieces of that process. again, not asking for the formula, but like just paint a little bit more around some of what that might look like.
to respond to some of that disillusionment in a different way.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, well again, I don't think there's a perfect formula, like you said. Yeah. I recently read a book that I'll reference called Shattered Dreams by Larry Crabb. And in that, there's several places where he talks a little bit about this concept. And I think there's a reality that in a quote unquote secular life, like a successful good secular life as we would define it, the goal is to avoid disillusionment or get past it.
Or, you know, ultimately when it's all the like sunshine and butterflies, that's when life is best. That's when we are most successful. But I think there's a reality that like the life that we get to have with Christ actually invites us into a totally different paradigm. In that disillusionment is a gift. And when we're able to shift gears and start to see that,
Which is really hard in the moment. Let's just be honest, right? It's so hard. It's easy to say, but when we're able to shift gears and see that actually, no, sometimes we are actually in the best place possible when we are disillusioned. It actually means we're healthy. So like sometimes when we're disillusioned, would say pretty much all the time when we're disillusioned, it's because a false ideal or idol or
Jesse French
next
Cody Buriff
picture or whatever, something that wasn't actually true got broken. And that's really disappointing, but it's also really good that we're not still believing and going after something that isn't true. so disillusionment can be a huge gift from the Lord. think he doesn't want us to be satisfied with something less than what is best. Like I think he wants us to experience the
dissatisfied appetite for more so that we're not satisfied with what is.
Jesse French
Yeah, there's a receptivity of that's present, right? Of like, at its best when we are coming to that place of like, I thought this was it and it is not there. There is room ideally, right? When we're willing to not reject out of that, there's room and capacity to receive something else. Which is good news, which I think is some of the gifts that you're talking about, right? And it's been so hard all day. It's been so hard.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. mean, when you clear the table to make room for something new, you're clearing off things that you worked hard on or whatever, you know, like that you believed in or put your hope in. have to clear those things away so that the new can be available to you.
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. I think there's also a piece too of which I would imagine at least for most men is really difficult. It is for me of like, man, just I don't want to be patient in the process. Like wait, especially in something that feels, you know, difficult, painful, enraging, like whatever, or as we want to use like to actually be patient and to sit in that hard pass.
Cody Buriff
Totally.
Yeah, for real. mean, and that's why that's why what Allender references is like that's why we scroll. We play video games where we numb it out. It's where we find something to occupy that space instead of like sitting in the pain of it.
Jesse French
Totally.
Totally. And I'll just, I'll give like a super real example, even in the last like week, like won't go into like all of the details, but I was talking with you about this, like this super weird fluke thing happened with my horse like two weeks ago. Fluke health event, his colon ruptured and had to put him down and
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I'm still heartbroken for you over that. It's like, it's losing a good friend.
Jesse French
Yeah. And it totally like he was eight, which is like right on the cusp of his best years. And so again, like the illusion for me was like, man, he's entering his prime. He's going to be my kid's horse. Like his best years were just about ready to step into. And to your point, like that was not that long ago. And man, I have filled my time with like a random building project like
anything to sort of distract myself from that reality of that pain and like the patience of letting that take its course. I've done and that is it takes so much, I don't know, counterintuitive energy to actually sit in that and to realize this was the desire. It is not true. And the heartbreak is now here.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, totally. Jesse, I don't expect you to have like the answer for this, but if you had to guess, like, what does it look like for you to like honor and sit in that grief well, even for that situation?
Jesse French
Yeah. Yeah. I think there is some of that honor requires kind of the sitting with the question of what was my hope around what was possible. So like what I feel like is I'm kind of being robbed or cheated out of in some ways, like what was that future possibility that is no longer. And when I say to wrestle that, to actually name that, to give specifics of like, you know,
I thought he was going to be my kids source. I thought it was going to be this and this and this and did not just let it be kind of broad statement, but to give specifics. think it's also to give the specific honor of these are the memories and these are the significance of what has been of the times that I'd like, did share with him to say. And again, to not just gloss over that and say there was a lot of those, but I would say to get as granular and specific as possible.
Cody Buriff
Yeah.
Jesse French
some of that articulation feels like. And then to sit right in the heartbreak of like, what was was so good and what could have been is no longer. And so that grief and celebration like that can coexist in place.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, I wonder too Jesse what it looks like to share that with other people who are experiencing the same thing even. Yeah.
Jesse French
love that you brought that up, Cody, because I think when we talked about this hopeful kind of vision of masculinity and a different way of being, right? Part of the reason that we wanted to talk about disillusionment was it's not just for us internally, right? To do that differently. Yes, that's part of it, but it's just what you said. As we are able to navigate some of those spaces in our own life, we actually then are able to be with other people and to be alongside them as they do the same in their
right? Which like, what a gift to be able to say, I'm not so freaked out by someone's cynicism, their rage, their sadness, their grief, their heartbreak. Those waters don't scare me. Like, I can be in those waters and be okay with someone and with Jesus. And now I think this is some of the gospel of now goodness in what was so terrible, right? It's not buttoned up in a bow, but people are not alone now. And so the restorative man has a sense of I have embraced my own grief and my own disillusionment and can welcome that and be with others in theirs too.
Cody Buriff
Yeah. And I think I want to be careful even in that thought process that there could be a little bit of a vein there that I know people grab onto of like, why did God make me go through this? Well, he made me like, whatever, lose my kids so that I could be with other people who lost their Like that doesn't hold enough water for me. That feels actually almost abusive in terms of language and thinking that way. I think it actually like, yes, that's true, but it's a by-product.
It's not the reason that things happen, but it is a really great byproduct. The reason is probably far more personal and internal. And frankly, often we don't know. Exactly. Mysterious is the word. Like, we may not know until another life from, you know, like... And that's okay. That sucks. That's okay.
Jesse French
Yeah. Man, sometimes on this podcast, we'll kind of ask the question like, Hey, for people that are listening, what invitation might you have for them as you think about this idea of disillusionment in their own life? If there is like, man, that tracks, there's some resonance, some agreement around some of that. Yeah. What, what would be some of your invitations to be able to continue to engage some of this obviously after this conversation?
Cody Buriff
Yeah. I mean, I'll shoot from the hip a little. A couple of things come to mind. One of those is letting yourself name it and sit in it. And, you know, whether that's sitting down and writing it out or going for a drive and yelling at your steering wheel or whatever, but it's naming the spaces where you do feel disillusioned. Maybe it's work. Maybe it's your marriage. Maybe it's some other aspect of your life where you had an ideal
of what was supposed to be and that ideal has not happened. And the illusion has now disappeared. you're left holding the bag. so naming that and letting yourself feel the emotions of it, of that loss, like letting yourself grieve it, I think that's important. Number one. I think number two is probably not doing that alone. Like there's space to do some of that alone, right? On your own, but not like fully.
Like that is something that needs to be shared. And the reality is like, there are other people experiencing very similar disillusions as you. And, know, if you need to find them and gather support together with that, do it. I mean, I would even say this, like Grove Collective, great place for that. so name it, feel it, experience it with others. But then I think the other thing I would invite people to consider is the possibility that it's actually a gift.
there is something better available. And that is why that illusion had to disappear.
Jesse French
Yeah.
It's interesting. My mind goes to just the image of who does illusions, right? It's like, it's the magician, right? It's the trickster. And yeah. And so it is, it is a different thing. Like the image that we have of God, right? Like is one of that's very different than that.
Cody Buriff
search
Yeah, totally.
Jesse French
Cody, us one more, thank you for this. And yeah, just give us kind of one more reminder, the summit of which this conversation that we promote with Dan is part of. Give us just the quick details on that one more time as we wrap up.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, the Restorative Manhood Digital Summit is September 25th through the 28th. And so each day we'll release a new set of these conversations, these interviews with experts, everybody from psychologists to scientists, spiritual leaders to, you know, people speaking on a hopeful version of masculinity. so we'll put in the show notes a place to register for that. I believe it is restorationproject.net slash RMD
R-M-D Summit. in one word. so you'll need to register for it. It's free, by the way. Totally free. But you'll need to register for it to actually have access to it those days. So yeah, that's where you can find the information. Go to our website.
Jesse French
Yeah. And also depending on when you listen to this, if you're listening after the summit has happened and you're thinking, man, that sounds great. I didn't actually register to hear it live. If you join the Grove collective, all of those discussions and conversations will be housed there. that's the place.
Cody Buriff
of the app. And you can find that on our website. That's the truth. Jesse, thank you. That was awesome. That was helpful.
Jesse French
Thanks for the time. Look forward to the next one.
Cody Buriff
Yeah, take care guys.