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Honest conversations with working mothers about how they really "do it all"
Join us on Substack - https://substack.com/@leaningmyway
Charlotte Brown Interview
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[00:00:00]
Mikenzie: Hello everyone, and welcome to Leaning My Way, a show where I have honest conversations with working mothers about how they really do it all. Today I'm joined by Charlotte Brown. She's a marketing strategist who started her own freelance consultancy after years in the consulting and startup world, all while raising two young children in London.
I was initially connected to Charlotte through LinkedIn, and so all I really knew about her were her professional highlights, which was very impressive, and I thought we'd mostly focus the conversation there.
I. But after talking with her briefly before an interview, I was struck by the depth of her story and her willingness to share some really vulnerable moments in her motherhood journey.
In her early twenties, Charlotte was diagnosed with endometriosis and told that if she wanted to have kids, well, she'd need to get going. Pretty soon in our conversation, Charlotte shares what it was like to receive that diagnosis, how it shaped her career plans, and the physical and [00:01:00] emotional challenges it brought to her pregnancies and her ongoing fertility journey.
We also dove into her transition from a stable job to starting her own consultancy, exploring the practical ways she and her husband have made it all work in terms of childcare, finances, role divides
and even how they split the home office.
Mikenzie: I loved this conversation and really appreciated how open and reflective Charlotte was throughout. She has this amazing balance of being this thoughtful planner, while also following her gut and pursuing what makes her happy. It's really inspiring. I'm so excited for y'all to hear from Charlotte.
So let's get into it. Here's my conversation with Charlotte Brown,
Mikenzie: Hello Charlotte. Thank you for joining us today.
c: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here.
well I always like to start the conversations at the beginning of life because I think that.
Mikenzie: Our backgrounds and the way that we grow up have so much influence [00:02:00] on how, at least we think about our future lives in terms of career and parenthood. So can we start, hearing a little bit about your background, where you grew up, did both of your parents work? How many siblings did you have?
Just kind of the quick rundown of the brown family.
c: Absolutely. So I grew up in London primarily. I moved back from Australia when I was, four, but spent the majority of my life in London. My dad worked, so he was at McKinsey for a long time, and then he, worked in startups, often finance startups. my mom didn't, so my mom is an artist, and she now works as a jewelry maker and designer.
But I guess as I was growing up, she did three degrees. she had four of us. so I am the eldest. I'm a girl, and then I have three younger brothers, two of whom are quite close in age to me. So there's 18 months and then 22 months. And then one is quite a lot younger, so there's 10 years between me and [00:03:00] him.
but yeah, big family and my dad had very strict boundaries around work, so he kind of built a reputation at McKinsey for not staying over weekends. He would leave and, you know, in his words, that was absolutely a priority for him because my mom was a stay at home mom for a long period of time.
When he was off a project, he didn't kind of do the holidays and all of that socializing and stuff. He came home to be with his family. and that meant that he developed this reputation as being quite like work life balance, I guess, which meant that people really wanted to work for him.
so yeah, that was, my growing up. And I suppose as a child it was very much. Drilled into me that he had to work to get anywhere in life. So he, was actually the first hire that McKinsey made that wasn't from Oxbridge, and
he had worked very hard to get there. And I think because of that, it's the classic like anxious [00:04:00] overachiever stuff where I say the work-life balance, but he worked really, really hard. And so that was the example that I had set to me, which I suppose was kind of interesting in that because my mom didn't work in the traditional sense, but still was very active.
Like she had her own thing, she did her own paintings and she had her own design shows and we would go and support her in that. I saw her. Having an identity outside of us, which I think is really important. And then when we were older and she was less in the thick of it, she then started building her jewelry brand.
And I watched her build that from sitting in her bed beading with little glass beads through to now, you know, she's designed for some pretty famous people and that's kind of cool.
So yeah, I guess they're very different, but [00:05:00] they both are driven and they both work really hard.
Mikenzie: That's so interesting. And I guess I can see a little bit of the business and the creative side, which I feel like fits nicely into how you landed into marketing as part of your career, or do you think that was completely separate?
c: no, absolutely. I'm very much a mix of the two of them, and so marketing was quite a natural thing. Like, I love words, I love writing. I did an English degree and then I also have that, you know, commercial savviness. And although I don't love working with numbers, I understand them and I can do it and therefore it, it like marries both parts of my brain.
but again, 'cause I knew we were gonna be talking about this, I was sort of reflecting on choosing to go into marketing and I think I was really deliberate in, going to profit in terms of trying to accelerate my earning potential and my career by getting a [00:06:00] really good foundation in a very strategic organization.
because I think sometimes because it is creative, you can end up staying at a salary bracket that isn't gonna support the life that you want, especially if you want kids early. So that is something that I knew that I wanted to do. before I had a family,
Mikenzie: Okay. So you feel like you joined Profit and then you went to,
Brick Lane,
c: yeah, which was a startup, a London startup. So it was just post seed funding. so they'd launched and I joined kind of very early. I think I was. Seventh or eighth employee.
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: but they were, you know, well funded, had really good angel investors because I'd done this net profit, I was able to negotiate a package that was much greater than I would have been able to, had I not done that.
Mikenzie: so it sounds like you, from a fairly young [00:07:00] age, at least in your career, were like, okay, how do I set myself up to be financially stable and successful in my career to have kids at a specific age?
c: Yes, a hundred percent.
Growing up, my mom and dad were incredibly supportive, and they always drew a distinction between things you do for fun and things that you enjoy doing that you're good at, that you can get paid for. And they were like, you can absolutely be an actress if you have those talents, but. You are gonna be like waiting tables working really hard. This percentage of people make it dah, dah, dah, dah. And so I wasn't kind of fed this. you can do anything you want to and there will be no consequences. The financial consequences of decisions was something that I learn, I was taught as I was growing up.
So I guess I was very deliberate in, early getting on a career trajectory that meant that I would [00:08:00] be able to have kids in London where my family is.
Mikenzie: Which isn't easy to have kids in London and you had kids fairly young for London. can you talk a little bit about that decision
c: yeah, absolutely. So I, have endometriosis. So from when I was about. I think about 17 to about 23, I was having all the symptoms of endometriosis but didn't have a, proper diagnosis.
Mikenzie: can you explain what endometriosis is for everyone?
c: it's when the lining of your ovaries grows in places that it is not supposed to be.
So you have tissue, in other like places in the body which causes pain. But I had sort of heavy periods, really painful periods. I also had loads of other symptoms that they thought were cystitis, but actually that's 'cause the endometriosis had spread. and so I suppose the kind of gynecological issues, if you like, were something that I'd had from quite young.
And [00:09:00] so I'd had doctors say to me, you know, given that you have these symptoms, were you to want a family, we would advise that you start before you are 30. And so in my head, I knew that that was something that I wanted, and I knew that that was something that had been said to me. And actually until they found what the problem was.
I mean, AI was quite young, so I think I just thought I had loads of time and BI didn't have a definitive diagnosis. But actually when I started dating my husband, I then had the laparoscopy, had the endometriosis diagnosis, and I think it became, it just was part of the conversations that we were having.
So I guess we met, we started dating, I'm wildly impatient. and I sort of said to him, I was like, right, like basically I wanna have a baby by the time I'm 30, so over to you. And if only I'd been that relaxed, I
Mikenzie: All right.
c: relaxed.
Mikenzie: counting [00:10:00] down now. Come on.
c: I know, I'm like, over to you. Do you really love me? No, I'm joking.
but no, look, we were having those conversations and I think. That because I had, almost, because I had the weight of like medical evidence that this was a good idea. It meant that I actually felt quite, I was very secure in the relationship. I'd known him since I was 17 and he was a friend, you know, and then we were dating and so I think we started talking about it very early in our relationship and therefore things probably moved quicker than other relationships did at that stage.
Like my friends were largely not in relationships that we're moving as fast, it probably also helps that he's four years older than me. so Yeah.
that was just very much on the card, but I suppose more for like my health reasons than career reasons. But because of those [00:11:00] health reasons, I really had a plan that I wanted to get my salary up as high as I could get it and enjoy my work, but like really kind of push that up and work hard, work my way up so that I was in a position to be able to have a baby.
Mikenzie: Did you feel, when you got that diagnosis, I know you were quite young, so I'm curious if it was like, oh, okay, like just have to have a kid before 30 that that feels achievable, or did you feel like scared or feel pressure of like, well now I've really gotta grind and hit these milestones faster than maybe I would've thought I would have.
c: Yes, definitely. I definitely felt a lot of pressure. I definitely put a lot of pressure on myself and I think,
If I look back at my twenties, I went out with my mates and I had a good time and you know, all the rest of it. But I was pretty focused on [00:12:00] building the sort of life that I think I wanted. So when I met Adam, probably I was quite intense. You know, I like very much had like a plan, that was then, yeah, I guess it is scary.
I think it's scary when someone says to you as a 23-year-old woman, you need to have kids by the time you're 30. and I think we all know these things theoretically, but when someone looks and they're like, you specifically because of this thing should crack on. Yeah. It was, it, I was definitely scared. and having grown up in a big family, my default was that I would have a big family. And so as soon as that is sort of, you know, like dangled in front of you as maybe this isn't gonna be your path, unlikely, but you know, that that is, no one is ruling that out. They're saying this is [00:13:00] a, a symptom of having endometriosis. so you need to crack on so that if there are problems, you have time to solve it.
But I think my brain was like, must do that. And I'm a, type a wild planner, so I'm kind of there like right then if I can do all of these things andyeah. I have the next sort of 10 years planned out for myself. yeah. Which isn't, I was not chilled, put it that way.
Mikenzie: Well, it's interesting because you sound like someone who had like a vision of your life quite early and was like, okay, I'm gonna work hard. I'm gonna hit these goals. But then also to add this medical diagnosis and then be like, okay, now I really have to hit these goals and maybe add an accelerated timeline.
And you're clearly this high achieving person, that , must have been a lot to take on at a young age.
c: I think I just thought it was really normal because I was in my own head and I was like, of course, of course. This is what I'll do. [00:14:00] And I also think I was probably young enough that they're all theoretical conversations, so no one around me was having babies. I was in probably, you know, one of the more serious relationships with someone older than me and we were living together and.
you know, when I was 26 we got engaged. So it was all pretty young and like early in these friendship groups. So I think I was just sort of running without really thinking about what having a baby would be like. I just knew theoretically that I wanted one, and I think that's a blessing and a curse because, because I had no idea what to expect.
I had this belief that I would just make it work because I'd made everything else work before. but I, I kind of do wonder whether a bit more of an understanding of the reality might have made me feel better prepared,
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: but then, I don't know. Does anything
Mikenzie: [00:15:00] I don't know. I was talking with a, with a friend last night and,we're the same age, around 32, and we were like, I wonder if it's better to just run at it before, you know, because now I feel like we know too much.
c: but I think that's the thing. even after I'd had Seb, I still thought that he would be sleeping through the night. Like it was a real shock to me that babies don't sleep through the night, which is ridiculous. But I think there was this sort of blind, I don't wanna say ignorance 'cause I knew it wouldn't be easy, but I think I just thought it would all work out and I hadn't seen evidence of it not doing, or whatever that looks like, or like someone's life really changing or, you know, any of those things was just quite outside of my very focused vision.
were also the first of your friends, right?
Mikenzie: yeah, I was very much in a different timescales. I think,
Okay. So at what point did you decide you were ready to have your [00:16:00] first seb? Was there a certain point in your career, or was it a little bit just like, we've hit the clock, and I feel ready now I.
c: Adam and I had, set up our lives in quite a, I guess, quite a routine iced wave. So We had these things that we were doing and that we enjoyed, and it was nice and we kind of exercised together. Went out to eat all the time. But I think after we got married, it quite quickly started to feel, not emp, empty is the wrong word, but it just wasn't making me as happy as it had and I would, this was all, so we got married in 2019.
we kind of had a honeymoon, went away together. And I just remember feeling like I feel sad and I feel like there's something that I just want, I just wanted a baby and I can't really explain it.
[00:17:00] and I think as Adam wanted to be married for a period of time before we had a baby, and he's kind of like, you're still very young. You know, we don't need to rush this, but honestly I was not very happy with the thought of that. I was just waiting for something perpetually and I was like, we don't even know if this is gonna happen quickly, so why are we waiting?
And anyway, I did get pregnant very fast. but I think there definitely was this, like, I kind of felt like my life was a bit on hold.
Mikenzie: Mm-hmm.
c: and because there was so much unknown and it felt to me like the taking control of the situation would be in, to start trying. And I think that is an interesting, dynamic because it's not the same as thinking I was gonna get pregnant immediately.
I just wanted to know that I was like. In control, which you are not, which is the like [00:18:00] dichotomy of all of this, isn't it? you are not in control. And I think that has been quite an important period of growth for me is that I've had to learn to accept that I'm not in control of everything.
Mikenzie: And I guess one thing you weren't in control of is you got pregnant quickly, but you shared that you had a very challenging pregnancy, which I'm sure was unexpected. Can you share a little bit about that experience?
c: Yeah, I did. we, if I think back, we were moving. So we'd, put an offer in on a house that needed a full gut renovation job. Like it didn't have electricity or a flushing toilet. It was a real doer upper. and that was taking a while. And then I got pregnant. And I got very, very sick very quickly.
So I mean it is not funny, I dunno why I'm laughing, but we were trying to move and my brothers came around to help and they just described my husband Adam, standing there in the [00:19:00] room surrounded by boxes, me kind of lying on the floor and he's like, I didn't know where to start.
And so I had hyperemesis der so I, threw up so much that I got very dehydrated and ended up needing to spend time in hospital. And I think there are a few parts to it, obviously that was the physical part of it. But it really knocked me mentally because Again, I didn't have any experience with this.
My mom didn't have it. there was a perception that it was kind of morning sickness and that I'd get better and I just didn't get better. so actually when I started taking that, you know, more seriously and slowing down, looking after myself, I guess it, I like accepted that that's where it was. But at the time I was like, why am I so weak? Like, why can't I just crack on with this? Because morning sickness is normal. Everyone else, you know, can do it. And I was, I was bed bound. I couldn't move. because I [00:20:00] was so unwell. And I think that again, there are the myths of pregnancy and morning sickness is one of them because I don't really know any women that it's just happened to in the morning, for example.
And also you have women who are commuting into work on the tube, being sick at work, you know, doing a meeting and you just think in what world would anyone be being sick at work and still just cracking on, like presenting the next deck to the board is ridiculous.
And so, luckily for me in some ways, the covid period of time was while I was pregnant meant that I was at home all the time. So actually I was quite isolated from that need to commute to the office and be very on and be seen. which there is just no.
way that I, I could have done, I struggled to like log onto my computer
Mikenzie: did. anyone at work know, like Did you feel like work was supportive through that time?
c: They were, I told [00:21:00] them. Very quickly because I had to, because I couldn't work at all. and I think I was in quite a privileged position in that I joined Brick Lane, we'd grown it, I'd grown in seniority with the business, and I was one of, two women in the leadership team. But I was the first person to have a baby.
And so, you know, it's traditionally property and tech, quite male dominated. but I had really strong, relationships with the cm, with the CFO. And so I felt very comfortable telling them. and they were very, very supportive. but there wasn't really protocol for it. they just took me at like, work when you want to.
If you can't, that's fine. And I think that that was really. like not to be underestimated how lucky I was in, obviously not lucky to be sick, but in how work responded, they were [00:22:00] brilliant.
Mikenzie: Did you tell them in first trimester then? I'm asking 'cause I feel like it's this very controversial thing of like, women usually can't tell for the first trimester, but that's the hardest trimester.
c: Oh, I did. I was like five weeks.
Mikenzie: Okay, yeah. Because am I naive now?
I am like, they should know because you're struggling. But obvi, I've never had a kid, so I don't know what people's experience. Obviously it's intimidating to tell,
c: I think I, again, again, I just, I didn't really have an option. I also think that when you tell them that you are pregnant. You are legally protected in certain ways that you aren't if you don't. but I completely understand why women would choose not to, and I think it's very, very individual and it
depends on, Yeah.
and it also depends on the relationships that you have with those people and how much you trust them.
Because, you know, again, I was, [00:23:00] I was promoted twice while having my babies, once when I was pregnant and once when I'd just come back from Matley, maybe the other way around, but I was promoted knowing that I was pregnant. And then having just come back, I don't know how, you know, you'd like to think that all businesses would do that, but I'm not sure in reality that I don't think that's the reality.
Mikenzie: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's very personal. It's just interesting to hear that. 'cause I've had a few of those conversations of,
c:
Mikenzie: how people have decided to take that and I've, I've found it really interesting but it's very much like, do you trust the person that you can tell them and they would be supportive.
charlotte: It is that, and it's also, I had a miscarriage in between, my first and my second. And I also told work when I had, when I had the miscarriage because I needed to have time off. and I guess that was the only time where I felt a bit uncomfortable was like [00:24:00] coming back to work, having had a baby and then having had a miscarriage.
And like everyone kind of knows that you are trying for a baby, not everyone, but the people that you've told and the senior team. And I didn't love that. But equally that is just life. so, yeah, I think I found that harder than telling them that I was pregnant. It's more like them anticipating me being pregnant and then I felt very self-aware of like, I think I just overthought it, if I'm honest.
Mikenzie: Were you scared they would react differently than having a challenging, because you still, you told them pretty early. so I'm curious, what felt different for you in sharing that at work?
c: I think I felt vulnerable and maybe that actually comes back to a control part as well. Like when I was pregnant, I was kind of on [00:25:00] this growing the baby journey that was kind of unraveling, not unraveling, you know, it was just moving. Whereas at the point where I came back after miscarrying it, I think, I think I was just a bit, I mean, I was sad. I think I was distracted at work you know, I was all of those things and I may be worried that them knowing that would make them think that I was less committed to my job. but I wasn't if anything, I think There's a real drive. I found a real drive in motherhood and in having babies that made me, in some ways more ambitious than I was before. And I think that,
these things coexist, right? You have women absolutely smashing it and growing babies and they don't detract from each other.
They just multiply. Yeah, I just think it's complicated some of this stuff and I think hindsight is a [00:26:00] wonderful thing.
Mikenzie: Yeah.
But I'm very curious that point you just made that you felt almost more ambitious by having kids. say more on that. If, if you, if you can.
c: When I had Seb, all of the kind of Covid hospital restrictions were in full force. And there was a few times where I had to advocate for me. But then when he came, I had to advocate for him too. And it's one thing not speaking up for yourself, and it is another thing, not kind of speaking up for your baby.
And it kind of lit this fire within me where I found a voice that perhaps I'd worked quite hard to, you know, dampen. But there was just no, option because I'm like, well, if I don't speak, then who's going to? Then someone has to, so it's gotta be me. Whereas, you know, as women, I.[00:27:00]
There can be those times where you just think like, oh, I won't say anything and I'll just kind of smile and let this pass. But I do that a lot less and it's really serving me. that's great. And then I suppose in terms of a career, and having my kids has made me more conscious about what's important to me and why.
So I tried in my head to set up this life that meant that I would be able to have a family. And it's like, well, I've done that now. So what do I want this family life to look like? And again, work's a big part of my identity, but also showing up as a mom in the way that I want to is really important to me. And how do those two things coexist and I suppose. Where I got to when I decided to leave, my last role was that my job wasn't [00:28:00] enabling me to show up in the way that I wanted to, and that was because wasn't doing the work that I loved, which meant that I wasn't happy.
and so I started working for myself and consulting and again, that came from an awareness, but also a a kind of a very present driving force that says I'm a better mom when I'm happier and you're not happy. So therefore something's gotta change and it needs to be this.
And I felt like it gave me permission to prioritize myself and my happiness perhaps in a way that I hadn't before. When I'd worked incredibly hard to set myself up, I'd prioritized that, and it created this shift, which I'm probably only aware of looking back, but I think it, did create a shift where I've had to [00:29:00] prioritize me as more of a whole person rather than me as a worker and building a life around that, that supported that.
Mikenzie: it's so interesting because one of the parts of your story of many that I find really cool and inspiring is that you had a very good kind of more corporate job. And then after having two kids, you're like, actually, I'm gonna start my own business. And For me, I, I think about can I start my own thing and have kids or should I stay in the corporate world?
And I think a lot of people will opt to stay in the corporate world 'cause it's safer But I love that framing of well actually now I almost have to look out for myself even more and make sure I'm fulfilled so that I can be the best parent that I can be.
And that kind of sounds like it motivated you to make that jump. So can you talk a little bit about that transition from leaving, brick Lane and starting your business? You had [00:30:00] both your kids at that time, right? Seb and Bella
by the time you left. so how was that like starting up a business and having two young kids at home?
c: how was it? It was great. Like, I think what I, I said to myself when I came back from my second maternity leave, I knew that, the return back to work was more challenging for a few reasons. The business was in a different place. there'd been quite a lot of Staff movement, but also fundamentally having a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old is you have less time for yourself because when you have two parents and one baby, I did spend more time like walking by myself and doing exercise by myself, whereas it's was more tag teaming with my husband. So I would say I was just a lot more depleted, [00:31:00] physically and mentally going back to work the second time round. and so I gave myself a year and I was like, if in a year's time I'm not happy,
Mikenzie: A year
from coming back. So took your
c: A year from coming back.
Mikenzie: back, and then, okay.
And how much maternity leave did you take?
c: I took nine months and then I went back a couple of days a week. I, I sort of did a a slow phase
back.
but yeah,because I knew that I was still breastfeeding when I went back to work, didn't take a bottle, like I knew that there was other stuff going on that meant that emotionally I was probably less like charging the door down to get back to work like I was after seven.
I was more like, I just need to let myself ease back in and not rock the boat in terms of any more life changes. We're just going to leave this as it is for now. and I loved my job and I [00:32:00] loved the company and there was a lot of good and I'd been there at this point now six years, so.
There was a lot of, security and I was very familiar with what I was kind of stepping back into. And I think the idea of finding a new job with a three and a 1-year-old just wasn't something that I was hugely interested in, if I'm honest. So I thought,
Mikenzie: enough.
c: Yeah. we'll focus on this. We'll see if we can make this work.
And what I found was, I think my tolerance was just lower and so I started finding things about the working environment, more and more irritating. and then I actually started getting quite, burned out is a funny word, but I think it was burnout. In the sense of I was working, working, working, working, working all hours of the day and night. but I was trying to [00:33:00] juggle all of it. My husband works in finance and insurance company andhe works hard and I think we both had these jobs where we weren't working at like super level, but things would come up and one of us would need to leave.
And our careers more or less had financial parity. And so that juggle of the kids, my job, Adam's job, the house, it was just too much I think. And I didn't feel like I was ever switching off. and so, we did stuff like we kind of. Both did our support. So we got a cleaner twice a week, and we did those practical things that meant that there was just less stuff to do, around the house, or like we tried to reduce the number of jobs and see if that made a difference.
And I think as we were taking all of these steps, we got to a point where I was like, I actually don't think [00:34:00] that this is any of these things. Like this is making it better. But I actually think I am just not happy in the role that I'm doing anymore. And I feel really drained by it, rather than energized by it.
And work had always been somewhere that I did take quite a lot of energy from as obviously you put out, but do you know what I mean? You get that sense of, reward and achievement and that just wasn't happening anymore. And so. We sat down together and we were like, okay, this isn't really working and we need to change something.
And so I had a three month notice period. I did some, career coaching with a woman who's just amazing and she really focused on, again, kind of treating yourself as a whole person as opposed to trying to jump through the hoops and that like, structure of a career. and I think about halfway through those sessions, I'd realized that I just needed to resign.
So I resigned. and I'd always [00:35:00] wanted to do my own thing. Actually, when I was pregnant with Seb, I built my mom a website and started, helping her with some of her marketing and I loved it. but then when I went back to work,It was just too much to keep doing at the same time. but yeah, I think I just thought, let's give it a go.
Mikenzie: Mm-hmm.
c: we had, we'd done our finances in a way that meant that I had some breathing room. not a lot, but like enough that I kind of thought, if worse comes to worst, I can pick up another job doing X and we will be fine. and we reduced our childcare as well. So we had a couple of days a week where they were looked after by Childminder, but we just cut back and we were like, right, let's see, we'll have the summer.
I'll try and get some work. And I was Lucky, in the sense that I picked up something [00:36:00] straight away. and so I didn't have any kind of gaps in income and it was a project with a friend of a friend who I'd gone for coffee with. and so I started, you know, I went for coffees. I started chatting to people.
I, started posting on LinkedIn and yeah, things just went and,
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: it's up and down. But the happiness that I take from having freedom, to run my life how I want it, basically, and to prioritize different things at different times is greater than for me, the financial stability of having A-P-A-Y-E job, because it used to make me feel so stressed when I had to pick 'em up when they were sick, or any of those things I found quite derailing. Whereas weirdly, if it is my time and I can make it work by working in the evenings or doing other stuff, I just feel much [00:37:00] more in control.
Mikenzie: Yeah, it's super interesting. I'm curious because, You are a high achieving person who likes control similar to me. And, I could see for myself starting my own thing, end up being that I work way more and put way more pressure on myself to make it work. Especially with we have to have money to take care of the kids and that drive.
But actually for you, it's really interesting to hear that in a way was like this liberation, and it also gave you space to have more flexibility. do you kind of feel more or less pressure doing your own thing or actually has it just kind of flowed quite nicely and that hasn't been a case for you?
c: I definitely work hard. No, I definitely work harder now. and I do feel more pressure, but I think my fulfillment is also so [00:38:00] much higher and it was a real learning curve for me. 'cause I knew that I am someone that enjoys working. I don't think I realized, how important it was to me and actually.
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: and that not be a bad thing. 'cause there's this sort of myth around having it all and that everyone has different ways of making work. You know, your reason for doing this podcast, right. But there is this kind of like, you can almost never win whatever you decide there's a, a
Mikenzie: It's trade
offs.
c: Yeah. It's trade
Mikenzie: Yeah.
c: And I guess I would prefer to work on a Sunday at certain times or like get up and work before the kids are awake, which I don't do because it's always in the evening because I cannot get outta [00:39:00] bed.
but I, I think it's, I'm happier. The stuff that matters. You know, for se at school, like, I go to the big bug parade at three 30 on a Thursday, and that is not an issue because I can work my diary around it and I don't have to ask anyone for permission. And I just love it.
I love the fact that I can choose to do that. that said, there's no question that I'm working harder, but it is on my terms. And I also know that
I have to learn to be kind to myself and choose not to work in the evenings or at certain times. And honestly, that's probably one of the biggest learnings is that I think it was very easy for me to Blame my job or blame this or blame that. And like fundamentally it was me and I was the problem.
And I've had to not do that to myself, but you know, it's a growth thing.
Mikenzie: I actually love that. It is very easy to be like, I'm not happy because of my job, or [00:40:00] like, I'm not making space for myself 'cause my job's so demanding. But then Actually you can. It's like how you prioritize it and I think about that a lot. Now that I've left my job and there's still current themes that I'm dealing with, which I blamed my own job for.
I'm like, oh, okay. I guess I'm the problem.
c: yeah. It's so true. It's so true. And you're like, oh, right. This has actually forced me to really, you know, look at myself and be like, no one was asking you to work at those times andyou know, that can sometimes be more or less true, right? But. Yeah, the boundaries that I try and set for myself, move, but it's an evolving thing, right?
Mikenzie: Yeah, yeah.
c: Yeah,
Mikenzie: do you split it now with your husband and childcare in general? I don't know if you know you have nannies or. Parents helping. but with you working for [00:41:00] yourself and I assume from home, how do you make that split work? Because I feel like it could be easy to default where you take care of everything because you're home, but office is, you're working full-time, so you need to make sure you have that space as well.
c: Yes. I think that is, an ongoing theme of conversation. So, when I started. I needed a bit of, time actually just with the kids. So I ended up taking, most of August last year off. I actually really wanted to spend some time like sorting out the house because it was making me really stressed that there was just stuff everywhere.
And so Igot into this quite domestic organization, Headspace. And then once I'd done that or I felt like I'd improved that to a level that I was happy with. I focused on, other aspects of our lives. but as I've got busier and as I'vefigured out exactly what I wanted my business to do and, thought through some of those [00:42:00] things, I now feel like I can invest more time in building out.
You know, what I offer and my network and try and grow the business there. It has meant that Adam and I have really had to talk about who is responsible for what. And there are certain things that, particularly I think when you, or on maternity leave or parental leave become more the default for you.
There's a constant recalibration that has to happen
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: and there have been periods of time where I think we've been really almost talking across purposes. 'cause I'm there like I cannot do anymore. There's just no space that can be filled with any additional task. And he's kind of there like, I'm not asking you to do more.
I'm saying that we should be doing less.
Mikenzie: Mm
c: so we've had to. Yeah, we've had to be quite deliberate. So we don't have, family help in terms of [00:43:00] grandparent help. we have a child minder who is just down the road from us and there's two women who are absolutely, they're incredible.
the kids absolutely love them. And so Bella goes there Monday through Thursday. and Seb, they do his wraparound care from school Tuesday to Thursday.
Mikenzie: And I know, I should know this because I
live in London, but as an American, a child minder is
c: minder is someone who looks after, children in their own home. So they have a playroom setting, in one of their homes and they have eight children.
I think they're normally, normally sort of preschool age, that they look after between the two of them. And so it's really that. That childcare solution. we tried a nanny at nursery for a bit. what else did we try? We used a childcare app called Bubble that did ad hoc bits and pieces, which it's a great option.
[00:44:00] but I think the reliability of two people that they know and really love, I think they do love them. It makes also outta the house because there's no complication around them being in the home space. We also have a, office gym in our garden. So there is a kind of physical distance from the house, which I think is also pretty key.
certainly for me because yeah, I like having a space that's not the domestic one to work
Mikenzie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
c: And that's also something that Adam and I have been pretty clear on. It's like if you are working, there's no expectation that the kids are quiet or that the other one keeps them quiet and keeps them away.
So if I have calls, that I really don't want them here for, either they're at the child minder or
I make sure that I'm somewhere else. There are [00:45:00] actually times that I haven't been in the shed because they can see me when they're in the garden. But I think those boundaries of like when he's working from home, I don't suddenly become the wife that's kind of ushering them away from his important work calls has just been very important for me.
I didn't want that dynamic. Yeah.
it's like it's your responsibility. They're your calls. You go find a space away from the kids, like this is their home. And so I think I take quite a hard start with that. Maybe other people are a bit more generous, but that's, yeah, that's
Mikenzie: No, I love it. 'cause I think you have to be intentional about it. from my conversations that I've had, it's always about communication
c: yeah.
Mikenzie: what you want and then how do we get there?
c: Yeah. And like there's a space that's quiet and designed for working in the office, so
Mikenzie: Yeah.
c: if you want it, that's absolutely cool, but
I think, it just means that everyone can relax a bit more.
Mikenzie: yeah,
c: One of the most, I guess one of the most [00:46:00] stressful parts of balancing children and work that I found is when they're sick and everything suddenly like butts up against each other because you have work commitments. I know that I want to be the one that's with my kids when they're sick, because they want that comfort. And I feel very, like, I can't concentrate if I know that they're unwell and I'm doing something else. But all of those things start intertwining, and I think I find that very, very, very stressful,
Mikenzie: And that's totally outta your control, you know?
You can't, yeah. You don't know when that's gonna happen, so.
c: No. And so, again, communication and being really honest and upfront with people. I don't know a single person that you say like, I'm really sorry, my kids unwell. Please, can we re reschedule? And they're like, absolutely not
Mikenzie: Like now.
c: Exactly. [00:47:00] Like, but again, that's just a, yeah. you know, you're obviously professional about it, but I think there is also a kind of humanness to that, where when you communicate things, you often get a lot of warmth back, right?
Not always, but mostly.
Mikenzie: yeah,In, our prep call, you talked about potentially wanting up to four kids, but the fear of not being sure, you know, if you can have four kids. Do you mind talking a little bit about that and how you have been thinking about that and what comes up for you around that?
c: Yeah. so I'm now 33 and a lot of, you know, these similar conversations are happening in friendship groups and at dinners and all the rest of it. And so You know, fertility and family planning is definitely something that is very much kind of on the agenda. and there's a few things that I think I've really noticed, [00:48:00] like, I suppose quite recently, but one of them is around asking people whether they want babies, particularly asking women, particularly women of this kind of age.
and I basically have a rule for myself that I don't ask. And if someone wants to tell you they will, and that actually goes for anyone because I think for me, I had, kind of injuries and complications after my birth, which actually still haven't really fully been, got to the bottom of,
a bit often because within kind of the group of moms and dads at sub school, I'm on the younger side. you know, they'll ask me a lot like, oh, do you want a third? Are you thinking about this? Are you thinking about
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: And it hasn't always felt great, to be honest.
And I, I suppose that side of, having had two kids, you might expect that to be absolutely fine and not a deal. But I do think [00:49:00] you just never know and you never know kind of where somebody is on that journey. And so, one of the rules that I, I have for myself is. I don't ask.
And I find that if someone wants to talk about it with me, they will bring it up. And then obviously you engage and you listen, but I really do make an effort to do that. And it can be hard, especially with your good mates. But I just, kind of know how it feels to be wrong footed by that.
And that wasn't an experience I'd really had pre babies. But yeah, this side of it, that's one of my big learnings is you just do not know where other people are.
Mikenzie: it's so true. It's something, when you said it to me, it really stuck in my mind. 'cause then I was like, oh my God, have I asked people? Because to your point, you kind of know immediately not to ask people when they don't have kids. 'cause you just don't know. But then once you [00:50:00] have kids, you just assume like, oh, it's all
crystal clear. But actually being like really sensitive around that. it really stuck with me when you said that,
c: think it's about, yeah,there's an art here, right? 'cause you also don't wanna be so cautious that your friends or you know, people don't feel like they can open up. But I suppose, My experience is that when people do want to talk about it, they do. And I also think in sharing. It was at a kid's birthday party when a dad asked me if we wanted to have any more kids.
And he was very focused on whether or not Adam wanted anymore. I just laugh and sometimes it makes me say things that it's not that I don't mean them, but they're definitely exaggerated versions. So I think my response was like, I was like, oh, Adam doesn't mind, he'll just do what he's told.
I'm like, why did I say that? But these things come out. But then I did say to him, I was like, well, actually, you know, I would [00:51:00] like a third baby, but at the moment it's not the right thing for me. I want to understand what's happening with my body and I want to understand the impact better to carry a third, because, you know, the impact of my second baby was pretty significant.
And so, we did have a conversation about it, but I guess. You know, maybe one of the other things is if you're gonna ask the question, you need to be prepared for the answer. And so I went right into that answer and it's like, okay, you wanna know about my, my family planning, but here you go.
Mikenzie: yeah. All right. I'm gonna put it on the table. He's probably like, oh, um mm.
I
picture like the
Homer Simpson, go into the bush.
c: Exactly. Exactly. And I, I knew, you know, I know him and I knew, all very well intentioned, and he, it's, a doctor, so I kind of felt like it was quite safe. But Yeah, you know, again, I don't know if I made him feel uncomfortable, I'm not sure. But I think there's [00:52:00] value to, to sharing and to normalizing some of these conversations, but
I do sometimes talk away and I'm like, oh, I don't know whether you wanted quite that level of answer, but here we are.
Mikenzie: they asked. I'm all for that. I think that's the right way to answer.
c: Yeah,
Mikenzie: And then my last question before, we'll go into a quick lightning roundbut in, in our prep call you talked about needing to do some work to shift away from that kind of lean in, you know, lean into your career and family at the same time, and that's what defines you.
What does that version of leaning in look like for you today? And how has that evolved since maybe earlier in your twenties?
c: Hmm. I think, a lot of it comes back to really trying to live in the present, so. Spending a lot of, you know, schooling, university, early career, kind of feeling like you are [00:53:00] jumping to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing actually, and this is,one of the greatest things that my kids teach me, it's that they just have a really great time.
Like in their days, they are not thinking about tomorrow. fundamentally, they don't really have a concept of time, certainly not as we do. And so meeting them there has, you know, it's made me happy, it's made me more playful. It's made me much more in touch with how great life is. Right.
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: I think it's that.
it's just try and be, try and enjoy your present.
And for me that was really hard. that is not something that comes naturally to me. but I think. that is the underpinning of all of it.
Mikenzie: I love that. Okay. And now these are quick question, quick response. so the first one is, what's one thing that your kids have taught you that's made you a better founder?[00:54:00]
c: oh gosh,
Mikenzie: Mm.
c: it's not that deep. I think I have a tendency to take things very personally. and having kids
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: again when they don't wanna do something, it's not because they don't love me, is because they just don't wanna brush their teeth. And so really being able to see the impulsiveness of kids and actually adults.
I think we'd all like to think we're very dissimilar with, you know, there are certain things that are universal, right? And so there are things that I would've taken to heart and really ruminated on and been like, oh, it's my fault that, you know, this didn't go through and this didn't go through and didn't win this pitch and dah, dah, dah.
But a, you don't have control over everything, which is what my kids have taught me. B, it's just not all about you and it that, you know? Yeah. So I think a bit of that really, and also because I would've really, you know, ruminated on all of this [00:55:00] stuff, but I just cannot in the same way when I need to crack through bedtime and read stories and there's quite a sort of, you know, I want to be engaged in those moments and those moments really matter to me, so I have to shut out that stuff.
Mikenzie: Hmm. what's one of the best pieces of advice you've gotten from someone about being a working mother?
c: I think knowing that not everyone is in the same boat, but I don't know of a working mom that wakes up every single day and is like, I'm absolutely smashing all of this. Like every single part of my life is in perfect order. And so just being more okay with some of the chaos, and not needing it to all be perfect and shiny.
Mikenzie: Yeah.
You know, and knowing that what you're doing is good enough. 'cause I think that it's very easy to feel like all of [00:56:00] the different areas are kind of bubbling over. You're not really giving anything the right amount of attention, but you are doing a good job, Yeah. Yeah, The mom guilt is one of the most
consistent things that I've heard about, which I like that you're doing a good job. Yeah. Everyone's
c: Well, yeah. And that mom guilt is designed, you know, without getting too heavy into it. It's kind of designed to keep to too control. Not control, but to make women feel like they're not doing enough.
Mikenzie: Yeah,
c: You know, society thrives off, not thrives. Society has benefited from a long time, from the unpaid work of women.
And from women feeling like they need to do more. And so I think there is a sense of activism and empowerment and just being like, thank you very much for like, I've done enough.
Mikenzie: yeah.
c: And so there's a bit of that. There's a bit of like [00:57:00] you can choose to reject that or you can be conscious of it and you can try and help yourself not feel guilty. But Yeah. There's like a whole new underbelly of societal things that come up when you have kids that I was so unaware of.
Mikenzie: I'm confident that we're gonna start to, to stand our ground as women.
c: We've got to, we've got to, yeah, we have to.
Mikenzie: Yeah. and then the last one is, if you could go back and tell your preki self one thing, what would it be?
c: I think to try and be less worried.
Mikenzie: Hmm.
c: I know that is the most like anodyne, irritating piece of advice and if anyone had told that to me, it would've driven me absolutely nuts. But like in a loving way to myself, it would be that not everything has to be perfect and like [00:58:00] neatly lined up and that things for the most part have a way of figuring, you know, you will be able to figure it out.
Mikenzie: works out.
c: it works out and that is not to say that it's luck and that you don't have to make choices, but you just kind of have to trust yourself, I
think, and be a bit less worried about
Mikenzie: yeah,
c: all of it.
Mikenzie: yeah, I need to take that advice.
c: Like, it's so hard. It's so easy to give and so hard to take.
Mikenzie: Yeah. But I think it's, it's very helpful to hear and it's one that I've heard a lot. And so for me it's like, okay, that's a thing that I need to take on. I don't have to be so worried and try and plan things perfectly. Trust yourself. It will work out.
c: Yeah. And the best lay plans, don't always, there are other plans that come along, you know,
Mikenzie: Amazing. Well, thank you so much Charlotte. This was such a [00:59:00] good conversation. your story's really inspiring to me and I appreciate you being so open and Excited for
more conversations.
c: Yes, thank you so much. it's been great and it's so important to talk about this stuff. It is very easy to see from the outside people smashing it and doing all these things, but I don't think anyone really deep down always feels like that. So yeah, it's good to unpack like what?
Unpack it a bit. yeah.
exactly.
Mikenzie: That's all for today's episode of Leaning My Way. If you're enjoying the show, please follow us on Apple Podcast or subscribe on Spotify and share it with friends and family who would also find these conversations helpful.
Know someone with a unique story about balancing career and motherhood. Or maybe you have that story yourself. Reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Okay, until next time, friends.