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A show about cameras, creativity, and the weird shit your brains do while you're trying to make something.
Together, we're exploring photography for all levels — asking the silly questions, sharing the expert knowledge, and digging into what it actually takes to grow as a human being and as an artist.
S02 E06 - Focus on Self-Trust
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Amy (she/her): , so what are we talking about today?
I mean, I know what we're talking about today, but what are we talking about today?
Casey (she/her): talking about self-trust.
Amy (she/her): Okay.
Casey (she/her): You're just along for the ride today.
Amy (she/her): That's true, which is maybe why I'm a little like, "I don't know exactly what's going on."
You might think photography's all about the technical stuff, the gear, the settings. Some of it is, and we'll get into it. But the harder part is what your brain and nervous system do the second you try to make something. The overthinking, the voice that swears you're getting it all wrong. Some weeks we're deep in the craft, some weeks we're deep in your head.
Either way, it's less about the camera and more about the person holding it. Welcome to this week's episode of The Focus Trap.
[00:00:42] What Does Self-Trust Even Mean?
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Casey (she/her): So before we go any further, Amy, I'm curious, like, when you hear the word self-trust, what does that mean to you?
Amy (she/her): it's kind of one of those things that I think of, you know, social media therapy type posts. I'm like, I don't... I'm not sure I actually know what it is.
I guess the closest thing that, that I think of would be like intuition and gut.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): but I'm not sure that that's exactly, that they're exactly the same thing, so.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): that's where we'll start with me.
Casey (she/her): Okay, I love that. 'Cause yeah, it's another one of those terms, and we've done this a bunch we use this term all the time, but then when you put somebody on the spot, they're like, "Mm, actually I don't know what it means," or, like, how to articulate what it means.
I just have a vibe about it. And, like, I love the intuition because a lot of times, there is this overlap, and listening to our intuition or our gut is, like, an act of self-trust, a lot of times I see it misconstrued as confidence.
So confidence is this like that I have the skill set, the knowledge, the whatever, to not only do this thing, but do it right. It is not that. In my world, I like to say that like self-trust is not knowing that you're always gonna get the answer correct. It's knowing that regardless of the outcome, you'll be okay.
Amy (she/her): so it's kind of like permission to do something. It's like I give myself permission to do this regardless of what the outcome is.
Casey (she/her): Yes.
Amy (she/her): Is that fair? Okay.
Casey (she/her): exactly. Yeah, yeah. there are things where, I've trusted myself to make a decision and it was a bad decision and ep- everything went epically wrong. That doesn't mean I made, the wrong choice. I trusted myself to make a choice and see what happens, what happens isn't a reflection of me.
when I think about, like, how it shows up in creativity, I am rapidly finding that there, and beyond what we have already talked about, like, there truly is no right or wrong in, like, dog photography. Like, I've seen a jillion styles. Do I hate some of them? Absolutely. That is my personal feeling about some styles.
Amy (she/her): Yes.
Casey (she/her): But,
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): the trust to take the picture and play with it the way you want, the edits you want, the style you want, and know that you like that for you. Um, I think about one of the first of your group coaching calls that I came on, and you were going through somebody's photos, and they had a few different photos, and they put up one of them. And you were kind of like, Here's my thoughts on it." You know, you did your little critique thing, and you're like, "What does anyone else in the group think? Like, what... of us give feedback today." And, um, something about this photo, and this was, like, also generationally stamped me 'cause I'm the younger one in the group right now, is I was like, "It makes me think of a MySpace profile photo."
and I kinda don't love it." And everyone else was like, "Actually, I really like it. It's a nice angle." And I'm like, "Oh." And in that moment, all of a sudden, I was like, "Oh, do I not know there was this little, like, voice that, popped up in the back of my brain of like, "Oh, you had the wrong answer. You were supposed to like that." because I understand enough about this stuff, I was like, "Mm, no, I think that's also just a style choice. I can dislike a photo."
So those kinds of moments,
[00:04:15] It Isn’t About Whether I Like Your Photo
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Amy (she/her): Oh, yeah. Yeah, I, I think I remember what, what session you're talking about. And generally you'll always know if I really, really, really like a photo. Like, I'm, I get pretty exuberant. I joke that I'm like Paul Hollywood, if you've ever watched Great British Bake Off,
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): I don't gush a lot.
So if you come to me and you want me to gush over your photo, you're in the wrong place 'cause it's not gonna happen. If you want that, you go show it to your mom, and your mom can gush about it, and then, you know. But if you wanna g- get better, then you come to me and I'll tell you like it is.
I generally, I hope that you won't necessarily come away from a group session knowing for sure whether I liked it or not.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): There are times where I'm like, I'm glad somebody said that they didn't like it because secretly, secretly it's not my favorite.
But I'm not gonna say that because this is not about my opinion. So, we may be already going off on tangents, but that's okay.
Casey (she/her): That's okay. No, I think this is an interesting tangent though, because I've never directly thought about your teaching style that way, but it makes sense. And we... You've told me, like, the Paul Hollywood thing before. 'Cause, like, will admit, I am a person who thrives on external validation, and I am in therapy for that 'cause I can be too dependent on it.
but it's this interesting perspective shift in terms of learning from you that this isn't about like or dislike of a photo, it's the technicalities, it's the flow of the photo, it's, is the eyes, the right ar- detail sharp, you know, and things like that.
And so then there's this weird... So many people base their self-trust or their self-worth off that external validation. And because you don't give that external validation in the way that a lot of people hope or expect, there's, like, cleaner learning. Like, I'm trying to find the words for this. Like, like, there's this cleaner learning environment, but also this, like, I've, I've noticed a couple of times where, like, then have to process it differently 'cause I'm like, I'm here to learn, not to get a pat on the
Amy (she/her): Right.
Casey (she/her): but I wanted a
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And so, like, here's a area where, like, some people, that could veer them into trusting themselves less because every time... And I'm not saying this as a critique of you, I'm saying this as a
Amy (she/her): No, I, mm-hmm
Casey (she/her): is people could take you always having edits to make as, like, a negative about their work and actually, like, erode their self-trust.
Amy (she/her): Oh, and that's happened, so for sure.
Casey (she/her): Yeah, I like...
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): doesn't surprise me. And I was just gonna say, like, not all teachers are for all students, and so if you know
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): need pats on the head, there might be other teachers for you. this is also an opportunity, where I'm learning this is a person I professionally trust. I need to trust that she's giving me good information, and I need to trust myself and my skills and my learning process to go out and keep taking more photos so I can keep coming back to you so we can keep doing this back and forth. And so that's where the
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): is, is in this. And I think we kind of don't talk about that part of the learning, is we talk about, okay, now I need to learn how to focus better.
I need to learn how to frame the shot
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): But also I need to learn how to take criticism and feedback and
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): not let that derail me from the art.
Amy (she/her): Not let it become me having an opinion about you as a person
Casey (she/her): Ja
Amy (she/her): because I didn't state that I l- I really like your photo or I don't like your photo. Um, it's interesting competitions, again, I, I am one of the judges for IPPA, and so, um, the, when you talk about competition style photography, the, the criteria that the judges are working from is not the prettiest photo.
It's not the photo you like the best. There is criteria, And it often is about impact. Does it make you feel something?
Casey (she/her): Угу.
Amy (she/her): photo, but if it creates a feeling, if it, if it has an impact on you, like you react to it, um, and it meets the, you know, the, the further then breaking that down into what that means.
It can't just be, um, you know, a bad version of a Jackson Pollock, for instance, and, and go, "It has impact." No, no, no, no, no, no. Not everyone can be Jackson Pollock, so let's... Um, but the criteria is not pretty. The criteria is not something that's gonna do well on social media. It may do well on social media, but, um, so my...
I guess I take that into the, the coaching as well, and It's not about my opinion of your photo. It's about those pieces that support a photo that has impact. It's about the, the sharpness. It's about the exposure. It's about flow. It's about composition. It's about all of those things.
Casey (she/her): Yeah。
Amy (she/her): you know, my brain works so fast.
As soon as I see a photo, I'm already into those details i- in the context of a coaching situation. Um, do I maybe get there by, when I'm scrolling social media? Maybe, but I keep that to myself. Um, I can separate and go, "Oh, yeah, this is pretty. I like this," and, and, you know, I can give those kinds of opinions on social media.
But,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): so yeah, you, you don't come to me if you want just a great job, way to go, um, you know. That's, that's not why... That is not the purpose of the membership that I run. Um,
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): the thing that, that is really hard for me to do are those damn fucking compliment sandwiches.
Start with something nice,
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh.
Amy (she/her): give your critique, and then end with something nice. And I can do it if in the right context. Like, that's how we're supposed to write the feedback for, judging competitions.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): do it in that, I can get myself into that mindset.
But I, I'm sorry if you come to my coaching. I'm not, I'm not gonna start with a, "Oh, this is great." I- sometimes I will just naturally, but,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): um, there's not gonna be a compliment sandwich. I'm sorry. Um, and now maybe th- it's interesting 'cause I do know that you need that, that you crave that validation, and that's fine.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): so it's really, maybe I should take that as a compliment that you've stuck around.
Casey (she/her): Right.
I'm learning about myself though, that I don't want to... Like, my self-trust and self-worth got too reliant on the external validation. And so it is a thing that, like, I'm actively working on, that I wanna be in spaces aren't just, "You're doing a great job." This is one thing I, and I both use ChatGPT, for some of the work we do in helping us process things. So fucking tired of chat telling me I'm doing a good job.
Amy (she/her): Oh, yes.
Casey (she/her): who loves validation, I'm like, "Please stop kissing my ass." Like, I want real answers.
And I love what you're saying about, especially with, like, the competition photography, about it being not is this pretty, but does this make me feel something? And like, when you said that, I immediately pictured you've got some amazing vulture, uh, not vultures. It's over here where you can't see it. Um, but the, the, bird looking through the ribcage of the carcass
Amy (she/her): Crested caracara.
Casey (she/her): The caracara.
One hand, you could label it as, like, a disgusting photo because it's a, a ribcage that's still got some
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): of
Amy (she/her): Flesh
Casey (she/her): Flesh, that's
Amy (she/her): on it
Casey (she/her): for.
That's got, like, some flesh on it. Versus, like, it's also, like, I think it's a stunning photo because it's this kind of rare, abstract, almost taboo kind of picture. And so, like, that one popped immediately in my brain of something that, like, would I label that beautiful? No. Do I
Amy (she/her): No
Casey (she/her): it stunning? Yes. Does it make me feel something v- visceral?
I'm already fascinated with, with those g- with vultures and, and those kinds of birds, and so, like, I think it's fascinating and beautiful. But somebody could see that it's n- that's not
Amy (she/her): Yes
Casey (she/her): but it's a unique photo that makes you feel something. And so I really like
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): in terms of also then exploring your own art
[00:12:44] Your Photo Should Have an Opinion
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Amy (she/her): I, I've started telling people, uh, in the calls, you know, "I want your photo to have an opinion." I, I think this is why people get frustrated with, um, just the, the whole, you know, quote-unquote, birds on a stick photos, where it's just a pretty bird posed on a, on a maybe a pretty stick and maybe not.
Casey (she/her): Yep, right
Amy (she/her): now I still like those in the right circumstances i- if the light is pretty, I can... I mean, I, I like them when there's something else compelling about them. It has to be more than just bird on a stick.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): but it's... I think that's the, the, the general frustration is I, I look at it and go, "Okay, that's nice," and move on because there's no- nothing makes me feel
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): anything, any way about it.
And when we first start out as photographers, the bird on a stick is a great shot because we're, we're so excited that we got a bird all the way in the frame. It's sitting there, it's posed, it's not like, you know, half taking off or, or doing something weird and, and we have a good background and good light and whatever.
When all those things come together, that's enough. But then as you keep going in photography, you need more A bird on a stick has to be pretty spectacular for me to take that photo these days. So, um, there's that.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
[00:14:02] Self-Trust, Experience, and a Little Ignorance
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Amy (she/her): as we're talking here, I'm thinking of the ways that self-trust in my business,
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): know, how that expresses itself.
So you and I are both signed up for a, a 12-month residency program for building our businesses. Um, so we're we're doing our own businesses, but we're both signed up for this. Um, and so we're also then talking amongst ourselves about, uh, what's going on.
So, um, I had my first planning call for that, um, a couple days ago.
So the, in general, the photographers in this group come from the portrait side.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Amy (she/her): So I am guessing you didn't need to explain your business. You didn't need to explain what you were doing
Casey (she/her): No
Amy (she/her): at all. I had to explain my business. And, and this isn't a bad thing. This is just,
Casey (she/her): Yeah。
Amy (she/her): I do not fit in the norm.
I certainly don't fit in the portrait world. Um, I don't fit in the norm of a lot of businesses. Like, they're... Someone who is comfortable working with people work- you know, who are s- solopreneurs, um, still needs an explanation of what it is that I do and how I do it, and because I've been doing this long enough, I do have systems that work really well, and I'm not coming into this going, "I, I need to change all my, the things that are working well."
So there was this level of I had to keep, I had to keep explaining myself, and yet it wasn't... I didn't take it as, "Oh, I, this is a bad business. This is a, you know, I should be changing things." It was, "No, this is, I know this works. This formula works because it's worked for 25 years."
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): We talked about my business fairly in depth on another episode, and there's a lot of things that I do that don't make sense to other people, even other people that do the, you know, event photography like me. Um, and yet I keep doing them because I have the evidence that they work,
Could I be convinced that there's another way? Sure, but you gotta have some really, really strong evidence that overrides what I already know, um, in my experience.
it was very early on that it made sense to me to, to set up my business the way I did, you know, to, to sort by dog name and to do all these things, I didn't have anybody else's business to, to muddle it up for me to go, "Oh, I should be doing it that way."
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): I just didn't... It was so self-trust and, and ignorance, um, perhaps we can just... So there's, there's a level of, of ignorance, and then there's a level of experience.
Casey (she/her): Right. But, and self-trust I think stands regardless of the ignorance. Like, sometimes the ignorance is great because, like, one of the things I'm struggling with right now is there are a million people doing what I want to do, I'm, like, comparing. I'm like, "Well, they price things this way, and they price things this way, and they do this and say it's great, and they don't do this and they say it's terri-,"And so I erode my own self-trust by trying to have all the answers
I've been running businesses for nearly a decade, so I'm not new to a lot of the underlying concepts of how to build a business, how to ask somebody to give me money. Like, I'm not afraid of that kind of stuff. And so it was interesting during my planning call, and I've had this in other groups too, where, like, I'm new to this business, I am not new to business.
Amy (she/her): Right
Casey (she/her): what parts I need help on aren't the basics.
I'm not afraid to ask for money. I know how to, like, set up systems to track clients and track invoices. Eh, fuck it. Self-trust. We're gonna just start with what I think might be slightly too high of a rate for somebody as new as me, but, like, fuck it. Let's see what happens." So, like, that's my self-trust in action, is like, looking for the right answer, make a decision based on what feels right with me, run with it. We're gonna give it three months, see what happens, and adjust course along the way if we need to. S-
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
I think this residency is gonna be super good for this, I keep talking about where I'm struggling is social media, and I, I think I need to just go back to being stupid about it in a, in a lot of ways. Like, stop thinking that I know, think, stop thinking I know anything about it, and stop looking for the answers about it, and just do what my gut tells me to do with, within reason.
Not, 'cause frankly, my gut would be like, "Fuck it, we're not doing it at all."
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): that's not an option.
Casey (she/her): all your
Amy (she/her): So take, right, take that off the table. Okay, now gut, now what are you telling me, telling me to do? So,
'cause I don't have a lot of self-trust around, around social media, beyond just posting a photo and collecting likes.
I mean, that's, that's the level of where I feel competent.
Casey (she/her): You've gotta start somewhere. And so I think that's a great, like, exercise in self-trust is similar to me saying like, "Fuck it, I'm gonna pick a price and go with it. Fuck it, I'm just gonna post and see what happens." And then, like, this is a thing that grows. This is a thing that evolves, and like, just post to post and get comfortable with posting.
Trust ideas that you create. I've seen some of... You've put out some really cute, great ideas recently. and when you're ready and once that becomes second nature, then there's this next level of like, great, now I'm gonna take time, some time to like maybe learn how to do a hook or learn how to do a little more clear call to action.
Like, we can grow these things. It's like we can grow these... Is we can grow
Amy (she/her): I think, I know. I hear the word hook, and I think of the guy being yanked off the stage by a hook, and I'm like, "I don't think that's the image we're going for here."
Casey (she/her): fish
Amy (she/her): or a fish, which I mean, yeah, I... Okay, great. I mean, I live in northern Minnesota. I've gone fishing in Alaska.
It is not a nice thing to be hooked by so it's like cull. It's like, can we please come up with a better name? 'Cause I just... Again, back to last week, I- visual, I create a visual of these words
Casey (she/her): True.
Amy (she/her): my head, and honest to God, I see the guy being yanked off a stage by a shepherd's crook, um, or a cane.
Uh, ugh, it's a curse. It is so much a curse at times, so
Casey (she/her): I'm glad it is just blank up there in my brain.
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Ignorance is, is bliss.
Casey (she/her): is bliss. Sometimes
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): yep. yeah,
Amy (she/her): right
Casey (she/her): all growing, evolving things. Like, we often w- even, like, when I was doing a lot more of the nervous system, ADHD coaching, a lot of my clients come to me with a deep lack of self-trust because especially when you're, like, late realizing, late diagnosed neurodivergent, is you've spent decades to question everything that comes out of your mouth.
You're watching social interactions before you decide how to step into them. You misjudge a social situation and get, like, a proverbial slap on the hand or maybe a literal slap on the hand for it. Like, we are taught
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): what our body is asking of us. Like, I
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): but we didn't realize that's what was happening, what was happening when I was younger, and we thought I was just being an obnoxious kid. And I, like, it's taken me a lot of years to put, "Oh, this behavior actually means I'm hungry. This
Amy (she/her): Mm.
Casey (she/her): means like..." You know, and so we learn to override all of that, which erodes this sense of self-trust, and then people come to work with me in the coaching capacity as a 40-something-year-old woman who's just finding out they're neurodivergent. And the first thing out of almost every client's mouth is like, "I don't trust myself."
Uh, it's so funny. Like, if I get a math equation wrong, don't internalize that as me being a bad person. I'm annoyed that I
Amy (she/her): Угу
Casey (she/her): that, like, I'm a bad person. But then, like, in the creative world, if we get similar kind of, like, correction, it's this, like, really personal thing.
[00:22:07] Whimsy and Sparkles vs. the Math of Photography
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Amy (she/her): It's interesting that you compare it to math though, because for me, um, I'm like sitting here thinking, but I, I evaluate photos in a way that's much more close to learning math or doing math than it is to doing art.
Casey (she/her): Угу,
Amy (she/her): Because, um, I can't give you your opinion. I can't give you your creative voice.
I can't tell you what to do creatively. That has to come. That's that, you, your photo has to have an opinion, um, and you have to, you know, stand by it. But I can give you the formulas. I can say, "Here's what works best in composition. Here's what works best with settings. Here's what works... Here are the mathematical, so to speak, rules."
And I, you know how I hate talking about things as rules, but still, here's the structure that holds up a photo with impact. So I can give you that kind of critique that is much more objective rather than subjective based on kind of best practices. I have a lo- I, I don't know if I like that term or not, but that's kinda what it is.
It's not right or wrong. It's best practices. Here are, here are things that generally tend to work best for a photo to have it, for it to have impact. Um, and so for me, it is kind of a mathematical process.
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): and artists don't like to hear that,
I still consider myself an artist these days, but it took me a while to get there. I just practice my art in a very different way than someone who is just inspired to go out and take this whatever photo, and settings be damned.
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): I, I just, I approach photography in a very different way, and it's very much that mathematical, you know, here is what works best.
Not because it's right, but because it gives me the results that I want.
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): um, you know, the coaching has given me the self-trust to be able to say that and to not shrink if, if I get pushback on it.
Casey (she/her): Mm-hmm.
love that because it is, there's so many different ways to look at creativity, and so knowing how you look at it and how it works for you and trusting that that's right for you. And, like, there are people who just run on a wing and a prayer, who run on sheer whimsy, but there's still an element of, like, my brain goes to the psychological parts of art, of like, our brains still follow psychological patterns.
There are still predictions that we're looking for. There are still... Our, our eyes follow the left to right, the, path of, you know, to the brightness. Like, there's this stuff that's, like, undeniably real, and whether you go find it through kind of a mathematical approach versus somebody who's running on sheer whimsy and sparkles, if it's good art, it probably is gonna come back to that same point of having
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): And so,
Amy (she/her): I can probably go look at someone, someone who's taken one of those whimsy and, and sparkles photos. I love that phrase now. We might have to use that somehow, I'm not that, but I think it's funny. Um, so I could probably look at a, a whimsy and sparkles photo and go, "Oh, but here, here's the structure underlying it.
Here's why it works."
Casey (she/her): Yep
Amy (she/her): Because it's got, you know, you naturally just did this kind of composition, or you naturally, you know, led the eye through the photo in this way. I can... And, and of course, that's where I run into trouble, is when somebody brings me a, a whimsy and sparkles photo, and I start pulling it apart into pieces like that, and then they're like, "Oh, well now you just ruined it."
Casey (she/her): Right.
Amy (she/her): I've only had that happen a couple times until I started giving the disclaimer of please don't bring me your favorite photo, 'cause it's possible for you to hate it when we get done. So, um, but I ne- I, I can f- if it's a well-constructed photo, no matter how you got there,
Casey (she/her): Right
Amy (she/her): I can see that structure.
I can see the mathematical side of it. I, I, I love the fact that composition, good composition comes down to psychology, and not follow the rule of thirds. Like, it's all based on psychology. and find it fascinating the ways that we just subconsciously read and interpret photos, and then that we can turn around and apply those principles deliberately as the artist to create this feeling in the viewer that make sure we- we're making the point that we wanna make, so.
Casey (she/her): Yeah. Our, our brains are little prediction machines.
the predictions our brain are trying to make, the patterns that are there, I love what makes it different for each of us is then kind of the other layers of who we are and how our brain works. you being that mathematical approach to art versus me being a little, like a very trial and error to art.
And as I learn things, I know I will see them better. Um, I think about
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm.
Casey (she/her): had an eye for so like I like literally stage lighting and theater. Um, when I was in high school, our high school did a massive talent show. and the band director would come in to set up all the lighting for all the different acts. he started out and he's like, "I want a blue light here and I want a spot here," and I would pull the lights up on the light board, and he'd be like, "That looks great." And at one point he was like, "Ah, I need something moody." And I just like threw some lights up onto the stage and he was like, "Oh, perfect.
Save it." And so the next act would come on and the act would start doing their thing, and he's like, "I need energetic and I need some like warm co-" And I'd just throw, Sh- And so like I realize there are certain things I just see, that and leaning into that, and then knowing I am in the process of, in photography specifically now in this new art thing, learning composition, learning learning, you know, that kind of stuff.
Learning manual settings on my camera and how to get shit in focus. I mean, like all of the details.
Amy (she/her): Yeah.
Casey (she/her): part am I already good at that I can hold onto versus where do I add, Like if you were to go learn, uh, uh, fuck, if you wanted to go learn wedding photography, you know,
Amy (she/her): Which we've already firmly established that neither of us will do, but it makes for a good example. Yeah
Casey (she/her): It's like that's such a different environment of people moving and ceremony and reception that like your brain would probably immediately go to certain types of layout processing, analyzing the situation, where I would go a little more chaotic vibes and but we'd both come up with something in the end in a way that
Amy (she/her): You know, if, maybe if, if we ever, we should do it together.
Casey (she/her): That's the
Amy (she/her): Like, they have to hire us as a pair,
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): then I'll keep, I'll keep the chaos to a, a, a dull roar,
Casey (she/her): Yes
Amy (she/her): you can make sure that we get all the shots, even the ones we didn't plan.
Casey (she/her): Yep.
Amy (she/her): and between the two of us, we might make one complete wedding photographer.
We are not advertising ourselves as wedding photographers though. That is, that was not an invitation to... No, no,
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): not for that.
Casey (she/her): think only I would consider it if your dog is getting married. If the dog
Amy (she/her): Oh.
Casey (she/her): or groom,
Amy (she/her): Oh, there you go.
Casey (she/her): consider it. I,
Amy (she/her): That
Casey (she/her): I wanna do... I, like, I was... Friend of mine has a newborn baby, and I'm, we were talking about doing
Amy (she/her): Okay
Casey (she/her): I'm like, "Absolutely never. Not something I want." Ooh, unless it was puppies. I wanna do a shoot with puppies,
Amy (she/her): Oh,
Casey (she/her): very
Amy (she/her): are fun
Casey (she/her): human newborn styles, the, like, swaddle
Amy (she/her): क्या? हम्म।
Casey (she/her): I wanna do newborn photos with puppies. think
Amy (she/her): Oh, I,
Casey (she/her): fun.
Amy (she/her): that's not a ter- that's a good idea. I think that could have, that could have legs.
Casey (she/her): Yeah.
Amy (she/her): That could have some, get some traction
Casey (she/her): and you have puppies, give me a call
Amy (she/her): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Talk about needing cleaning supplies though.
Casey (she/her): Oh, God. Yeah, that would be a mess. I have a whole tote of cleaning supplies. I'm set. I'm ready to go
Amy (she/her): I think you'd need a whole tote of swaddling clothes too.
Casey (she/her): two. Yeah,
Amy (she/her): yeah, probably.
Casey (she/her): I
Amy (she/her): Not that, yeah, I was gonna say, not that that's a bad thing. I mean, it's pretty easy to do
Casey (she/her): Go. uh, oh my gosh, that was a tangent.
Amy (she/her): Whatever.
Casey (she/her): Yep, um
Amy (she/her): It's better than us staring at each other going, "Uh, what are we trying to say?"
Casey (she/her): Uh-huh.
[00:30:56] How Do You Rebuild Self-Trust?
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Casey (she/her): I wanna circle back to this more intentionally of, like, how do we build, rebuild self-trust? I think it's really important to ask yourself what you think before you ask anybody else, and then to your body. And this is one of those ones, especially if you are neurodivergent and you're a really good intellectualizer, that can be hard to do. This is a learned skill. when your phone rings and you pick it up and you see on the caller ID that it is a certain person, and you, like, instantly flinch or roll your eyes or have a big deep sigh before you answer the phone, even if you then answer the phone, you're like, "Oh my God, hey, how's it going?" initial first little response, that initial little hit, is telling you something. And so in that context, it was telling you this is a person we need to reevaluate boundaries with. In the context of photography, like, if you look at something and you immediately are like, I don't know. Like, I have a photo where I'm, like, confused.
Something is off about this, but I can't put my finger on it. Great. That tells you a bit of information. so, like, listening to those little reactions
Amy (she/her): Yeah. It's, it's fascinating because I just, I think it was Fstoppers or one of those,kind of clickbaity photographer stuff, but it's usually sort of good. And I clicked through on one,
but the advice was actually really good, and it was exactly that. It was when you first look at a photo, if, is the first word you would use to describe it positive or negative?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): And I thought that was interesting 'cause I, I talk about, you know, we often talk about in the group, you know, who's the boss?
What's the most important thing in the frame? But I think there's a level before that, and that's that positive/negative. And that's, to me, that's the, the, the culling level of am I gonna keep this or not? Is it worth working on it or not?
Casey (she/her): Yeah
Amy (she/her): mean that it's an automatic if, if the first word you, that comes to mind is negative, you should automatically just pitch it.
But it is giving you that clue, and you should pay attention to it. And I think we all have those reactions, whether it's about a photo or about ourselves, and we don't pay attention to them.
Casey (she/her): Oh yeah
it's really easy that we have that initial reaction, but we immediately ignore it and push past it. And so I've noticed this, like, when I'm sorting photos before editing of, like, have this photo and I'm like, "Eh, well, eh, okay, I'm gonna save it." But I have kind of a rule I've already set with myself on those ones where, like, the initial reaction is, like, mixed, I only let myself edit for a few minutes. I've had a handful of those where I'm like, "I think this has potential. Something's not right, and I'm not sure if I can fix it in post." I play with it for a few minutes, I'm like, "Nope, this one I can't pull this the rest of the way together.
Scrap it." there's that one that's like an immediate yes and takes... Oftentimes those are the ones that take the minimal amount of editing.
Or there's the one where I'm like, "Oh my gosh, immediate yes if I do X, Y, and Z." we're so good at ignoring those reactions in business decisions, in relationships with people, in the photos we're taking,
Amy (she/her): Or even if we don't ignore it, we think it's wrong for some reason. We're like, "Well, this is what I think it should be, but I'm not an expert So it can't be right." We make the choice to override our, our instinct, our gut reaction, and, and then end up wondering why our photo has no opinion, because we won't let that opinion come out in the photography.
So
Casey (she/her): bet that's one that you have seen a lot over the years teaching is people who are like, "Well, here's my opinion, but that couldn't be right, so I need you to tell me
Amy (she/her): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, again, people on my crew where I'm like, "Why are you, tearing apart your photo? This is fantastic. This is great. You're, you're doing fine. Keep doing what you're doing. Carry on."
Casey (she/her): Ja. Ja
Amy (she/her): You, you are so used to getting beat down that, you assume that what you're doing can't be, possibly be right, and I'm here to tell you that that's not true.
Casey (she/her): I think especially women are so afraid to brag in our culture that like, "Oh, I'm gonna say the negative thing before you can," or, "I'm gonna humble myself," or, "I'm gonna play this off as not a big deal," or, you know, whatever. It's like, no, just be like, "Hey, I took this photo and I think it's pretty awesome. you give me some more feedback on it?"
Угу
who starts every single call with brags. Before any other conversation happens, you have to brag about something. And sometimes the brag is literally like, "I got out of bed, got on this fucking call today." Like, sometimes my brags are tiny,
it's been proven it hardwires your brain to just like, "Oh my gosh, here's this thing I did good. Hey, I did this and it worked. Hey, I did that and it was fun." Brag about that shit. Write it down
Amy (she/her): Yeah
Casey (she/her): tell a friend, whatever works for you. But I think that also helps separate, "I trust myself" from, "This did or didn't work," because those are two different things too.
And so when we can brag and when we can learn from failures, then it becomes separate from, "I'm a good person" or, "I'm trustworthy" or any of that kind of stuff too
Amy (she/her): Well, that got better.
It's a little rocky start, All right, that's a wrap on this one. If you haven't subscribed yet, go do that wherever you're listening. It's the easiest way to make sure that you catch every episode, and then come follow us on the socials. We're The Focus Trap on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, all of it. If something today made you go, "Wait, that's me," or there's a question you want us to take on, send us an email.
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