In the Interim...

In this episode of "In the Interim…", Dr. Scott Berry talks with Dr. Alun Bedding, a professional certified coach and statistician who spent decades in pharmaceutical statistics, including as global head of statistical methods, collaboration, and outreach at Roche, before founding his own coaching and consulting practice. The conversation traces Alun's path from statistician to coach and unpacks what coaching is: a forward-facing partnership built on exploring a client's own thinking, not on advice, mentoring, or therapy. Alun and Scott draw a direct line between good coaching and good statistical consulting as both begin by questioning the stated goal rather than accepting the first request at face value, whether that request is "I want to be a better manager" or "I need a power calculation." The episode covers why coaching must be uncomfortable to produce real change, why self-coaching runs into the limits of blind spots and self-bias and where AI coaching tools genuinely help and where they fall short.

Key Highlights

Coaching is a partnership exploring a client's own thinking, not advice or mentoring.
The parallel between coaching and statistical consulting: determining the real goal behind a request.
Why effective coaching must feel uncomfortable to produce genuine progress.
The limits of self-coaching, and why blind spots require an outside challenger.
How sports and performance coaching shifted from instruction to inquiry.
Where AI coaching helps and where human presence and challenge remain irreplaceable.
The difference between coaching and therapy: forward-facing versus backward-facing.

For more, visit us at https://www.berryconsultants.com/

Creators and Guests

Host

Scott Berry

President and a Senior Statistical Scientist at Berry Consultants, LLC

What is In the Interim...?

A podcast on statistical science and clinical trials.

Explore the intricacies of Bayesian statistics and adaptive clinical trials. Uncover methods that push beyond conventional paradigms, ushering in data-driven insights that enhance trial outcomes while ensuring safety and efficacy. Join us as we dive into complex medical challenges and regulatory landscapes, offering innovative solutions tailored for pharma pioneers. Featuring expertise from industry leaders, each episode is crafted to provide clarity, foster debate, and challenge mainstream perspectives, ensuring you remain at the forefront of clinical trial excellence.

Judith: Welcome to Berry's In the
Interim podcast, where we explore the

cutting edge of innovative clinical
trial design for the pharmaceutical and

medical industries, and so much more.

Let's dive in.

Scott: All right.

Welcome, everybody,
back to In the Interim.

I'm your host, Scott Berry.

I have a really interesting topic
today and a really interesting guest.

So let me jump into my guest, and then
I'll sort of explain the topic here.

Uh, my guest is Dr.

Alan Bedding, and he is a director
at the Alan Bedding Coaching and

Consulting, uh, Group, and he is a
professional certified coach, and

we'll talk about this idea of coaching.

Uh, he d- he also does
statistical consulting.

He is a, is a statistician.

He spent eight years at Roche
in a number of activities.

Uh, going back to his, uh, may not be
surprising here, but going back to his,

uh, PhD at the University of, of Reading,
he did, uh, d- his dissertation work on

Bayesian, uh, uh, work, uh, and has done
some Bayesian things which we, we, we

find attractive here on In the Interim.

So Alan, welcome to In the Interim.

Alun Bedding: Thank you, Scott,
and I'm, I'm glad to be here.

And, uh, I've listened to a
few of the, the pod- well, I've

watched a few of the podcasts.

Um, in particular the one with, with,
with Jenny Davenport, who was my, uh,

she was my successor at Roche, so I
was, uh, pleased to listen to that,

that particular podcast, and happy to
be here, and happy to talk a little bit

about coaching and maybe a bit about
the link between Bayesian and coaching.

Yeah, there's

Scott: Wow.

Alun Bedding: of a link

Scott: Wow.

All right.

A, a little bit of a teaser.

Uh,

Alun Bedding: Mm.

Scott: I, I love that.

So, so let's go back to your career
a little bit leading up to this, this

coaching, uh, that you're doing now.

Uh, y- talked about, uh,
your PhD work, but I, Iâ¦

I'm always interested, what, what
brought you to the world of statistics?

How did you become a statistician?

Alun Bedding: So it, uh, it's, it's
funny, I was talking to one of my

school friends, uh, yesterday exactly
about this particular topic, how I

ended up becoming a statistician.

So, so at school I was exceptionally
good at maths, um, or mathematics as we

would call it, not math or mathematic.

Um, and I went for my degree, when I,
when I applied to go for a degree, myâ¦

One of my, my teachers went, "Oh,
you don't wanna go for a maths degree

because they're so difficult to get on."

And I'm like, "Okay, whatever."

Um, it, it so turned out then that I saw
a statistics course and I thought, "Well,

that's, that's closely linked to maths.

Surely that, that, that'll,
that'll, that'll be good."

And that's where my

Scott: That's

Alun Bedding: journey
in statistics started

Scott: where my journey in
statistics started because I thought

Alun Bedding: I thought it's linked
to Um, take it through a few years, I

joined, uh, SmithKline Beecham in 1989.

Scott: I

Alun Bedding: In

Scott: joined Rachel Pharmaceuticals the

Alun Bedding: the day before
it became SmithKline Beecham,

Scott: day before it became Stantec

Alun Bedding: uh, back in 1989
after graduating with a, with a

degree in, in applied statistics.

move it forward quite a number of
years, whilst I was at Eli Lilly,

uh, my boss at the time said, "You've
been doing all this research stuff

into Bayesian adapted designs.

You ever thought about
turning it into a PhD?"

Scott: what then led me to

Alun Bedding: to pursuing

Scott: pursuing the PhD
whilst I was working.

So again, I

Alun Bedding: yeah, you

Scott: at the University of Reading.

Uh, it took me seven

Alun Bedding: years to do my
PhD, um, but well, well worth it.

Um, so that's what led meâ¦

So, so there's my, my, my early journey
and, you know, I, I, I progressed

all the way up to the, the global
head of, uh, statistical methods,

collaborations, and outreach, which
I'm not gonna explain because Jenny

did a fantastic job of explaining

Scott: Go back to those
collaborations that I originally

don't know how to explain, but
generally they're Right, right.

All right, so, so it, uh, so you were
at Eli Lilly, you were at Beecham,

uh, SmithKline Beecham, all in the UK?

Uh, uh,

Alun Bedding: All in the

Scott: yep.

Okay

Alun Bedding: in the UK.

And actually I came back once I left
Lilly to what was GSK, which would be

all of the component parts put together

Scott: yeah, yeah.

Uh, okay, so you're at,
you're at, you're at Roche.

Uh, you become the global
head of statistics.

You're there.

Um, now at some point, th-
this journey into coaching,

Alun Bedding: Yeah

Scott: this transition of deciding to
start your own business, uh, focusâ¦

By now you do statistical
consulting still, so you're still

a statistician, but into coaching.

Tell me the decision.

Why do that?

Alun Bedding: So let me take a step
slightly back, uh, to when I became

a coach and why I became a coach.

So it was before I was the
global head of, uh, of MCO.

Uh, prior to that, I was head of an
early development stats group, and went

on this leadership course within Roche,
um, which was heavily intense, and a

company brought in to do role play.

And a lot of that was to doâ¦

A lot of the, the, the stuff
was around coaching, so you

had to be a, a, a good coach.

quite honestly, I was rubbish, um, to the
point where the feedback said, "Well, you

need to go on a coaching skills course."

I went on the coaching skills course,
and I thought, "God, I love doing this."

Now, I, I can't explain
what I loved about it.

It was maybe not talking too much,
by the way, and listening and just

moving people through their, their,
their, their, their various problems.

But I thought, "Well, I love this.

Maybe I'llâ¦

I can do the diploma."

Scott: I went to

Alun Bedding: I

Scott: talk my thoughts

Alun Bedding: to talk to my boss
at the time and, um, said, "I

wanna do this diploma in coaching."

Now, at the time, Roche were

Scott: coaching into their leadership

Alun Bedding: into their
leaderships, into their leaders.

when I asked this question,
he said, "Yeah, go ahead.

ahead and go ahead and do it.

Go ahead and book it."

that's, that was 2019.

That started my journey into, into
co- into the world of coaching.

Uh, when I'd finished the, the, the, the
course, I thought, "What's, what next?"

And so I looked at other coaches
within Roche, uh, or other people

who had done coaching qualifications,

Scott: People

Alun Bedding: a,

Scott: are very good at coaching.

And we formed a, a community
of practice of coaching that,

Alun Bedding: thatâ¦

Of,

Scott: everybody around there that, that
was coaching inside their, inside their

day job were able to do in their day job.

But they were also doing being a coach
for other people within the council.

So it was

Alun Bedding: within the company.

Scott: internal, um, job

Alun Bedding: job

Scott: coach, I think

Alun Bedding: you would call it.

Uh, so thatâ¦

So,

Scott: So it starts with a,
a kind of mental obstacle

Alun Bedding: that.

There wereâ¦

And when I left Roche, there were
accredited coaches with the International

Coaching Federation, uh, on a
global perspective, which, which I

thought was a fantastic achievement.

Scott: And we took, we took those
at fantastic speeds Sorry, sorry,

200 inside Roche or just 200?

Alun Bedding: Roche.

Inside Roche.

Um, and I amassed over 500 hours
of coaching in what, s- five years

that I was, from 2019, 2024 when
I, when I eventually left Roche.

So it, it, it'sâ¦

And I coached quite a, a, a large
number of people, right from some of the

placement students all the way up to, to
the global head of the Ukraine office, um,

which was a really challenging piece, but
he remains my favorite person to coach.

still remains it.

He's fantastic

Scott: Ja

Alun Bedding: Um, and, and then so in
2014, I, uh, I, I, I decided I'd, I'd

got to the, the, the, the job I wanted
with- which was the global head of MCO.

I didn't wanna go any further.

And I think I, I, I knew I'd taken
it as far as I wanted to take it.

So at that point I decided, you
know, would I stay a member of

MCO or should I, should I leave?

And I actually wanted to,
to develop more as a coach.

And whilst I was in Roche, they,
there was not that opportunity

to, to really be you as a coach.

So I decided to leave, um, set
my, my, my coaching and consulting

business up and, uh, not look back.

It's, uh, it's, it's great trying toâ¦

It's great, great combining them.

And sometimes same client can have
coaching and consulting, which can,

y- you have to put a little bit of
a boundary, but it can still happen.

and, and yeah, it's, it's been
one of the most rewarding,

you know, the last two years.

They've, they'reâ¦

I can't believe it's
been two years, flown by.

Um, and I've developed now, uh,
I, I went on a team coaching,

I've done a team coaching diploma.

I also now supervise coaches,
and I do what's called mentor

coaching, which is where you, you

Scott: other coaches and give them
advice, thoughts on how they should

Alun Bedding: sh- can

Scott: their own

Alun Bedding: own coaching.

Scott: coaching.

You know, I've, I've, I've
gone from being a speaker

Alun Bedding: coach to being
somebody who's quite influential

in the coaching world.

Scott: But it's quite influential
in terms of growth And it's

not just technical, statistical
technical people in pharmaceutical.

Uh, you're involved in, uh, umpires
in cricket and, uh, uh, referees

and something you've done in the
past, but you're, you're, you're

just inherently a coach, I suspect.

Alun Bedding: Exactly.

Yeah, exactly.

And one of the things about, one of the
things that people don't necessarily

understand with coaching is y- want-
when you're coaching somebody, you don't

necessarily have to understand their job.

Because it's not your, yourâ¦

Because it, actually it's even better if
you don't understand their job because

then you can't give advice, just holding
that space for them to do their best work.

and yeah, I've coached people,
like you mentioned cricket

umpires, I know about cricket
umpires, but I've coached peopleâ¦

I, I coached a designer who
designed my logo for my, my company.

Scott: Yeah.

Alun Bedding: I can't even
draw, let alone be a designer

Scott: Right

Alun Bedding: himâ¦

I can't give him any advice.

Um, you know, even the, the,
I mentioned the, the, the, uh,

manager in, in the Ukraine.

I can't give him any advice.

He had to work it out for himself.

And so that's what I was, that's what
I do as a coach, is give people a space

to work out their solutions themselves

Scott: So it, it, I, I mean there,
there seems like a parallel here

with consulting, but to, to back
up a little bit, what is coaching?

Alun Bedding: So, so one of theâ¦

I, I describe coaching, uh, as a
part- it's, it's a partnership.

It's a partnership between two people
where you will explore a particular

topic, uh, and I use the word
explore quite, quite deliberately,

because that's what you're doing.

You're exploring a topic, to have
a shift in the thinking of the

person that you're working with.

So it's not about advice, it's not about
mentoring, uh, it's not about therapy.

People will say, "Oh, is that a therapy?"

No, no, it's not therapy.

This is, this is something
that's forward-looking.

So it's taking them where they are
now to, to what do they wantâ¦

what do they want to have a shift
in that's gonna improve what

they're, what they, they, they,
they currently bring to coaching?

Um, so that, that's how,
that's how I perceive coaching.

There's a lot of definitions out there.

You go on the International
Coaching Federation website,

they'll have a different definition.

But

But, you know, the

know, the most important thing is it's a

partnership Um, so you're equal
partners doing that exploring.

And yes, I might ask a quest- a certain
question and ans- they, you know,

they can come up with the answer.

Or I might just use a bit of
silence and then they'll come

up with the answer as well.

The other thing that I like to do is
bring myself into the conversation, and

what that means is not giving advice,
but if I'm sensing something or somebody

says something and I'm like, don'tâ¦

Your, your facial expression
is not matching what you're

saying," I'm, I'm very much at
liberty to, to point that out.

And quite honestly, that can sometimes
trigger somebody going forward.

They don't realize they're thinking
about something and they're saying

something different, and all of a

they go, "Oh, yeah.

No,

I've just realized what
I should be doing."

And it's amazing when you get that point.

You're like, I y- I, I, I've
had that and I'm likeâ¦

I'm sitting there thinking, I have no idea
what's happened," but there's something

there that's transformed in that person.

Scott: So the, the, the term coaching
and, and, uh, you know, from the sports

world, uh, and I have a, a son, for
example, who's a baseball player, and he

wants to, you know, a, a, American cricket
player and, and he would like toâ¦

He's got goals.

He would like to become a better player.

He would like to potentially play
Division I or p- or professional baseball.

Uh, and so he has coaches within that
are, that are helping him improve.

Is this, uh, a, a, a career, or are
you a career coach with somebody that

says, "Here's my goals and aspirations.

Can you help get me there?"

Is that a reasonable parallel?

Alun Bedding: It, it's a, yeah, it,
it's a similar parallel and I, I hate

using the word life coach, by the way.

I always say to people, "Please
don't call me a life coach."

Um, it is, it is helping
somebody out with their life.

Yeah, it could be, it could
be their career goals, but

it could be something else.

It could be something in their personal
life that they wanna talk about, which

actually probably will connect into their,
their, their, their work life as well.

And taking your, your, your, your
know, your son's example, he's an

athlete, but he's also a human being.

And so whatever, what, what's
affecting him psychologically

outside of the baseballing is
gonna affect his performance.

So it, it's important to have
all those elements in there.

And actually, coaching in sport has become
lot closer to the coaching that I do.

In, in the, in times
gone past it was, it w-

Scott: They, you know, they're trying
to manage their way on a company

that's, you know, making billions

Alun Bedding: the, you know, the coach
or the manager or what do you wanna call

'em, shouting and bawling instructions,
and I think the modern, more modern

coaches have realized that does not work.

Um, because these guys knows what
they, knows, know what they're doing.

Um, and therefore, you know, it's
a case of just trying to get them

Scott: Think about their own solutions

Alun Bedding: about their own solutions.

You know, I mean, uh, I, I'll
take Roger Federer as an example.

I mean, if you're Roger Federer's coach,
you're not gonna tell him how to play

tennis 'cause he knows how to play.

Scott: Ja

Alun Bedding: but a lot of
it's, it may be up in his mind.

It may be, you know, he's thinking
about the, the previous point and

he wants to explore, well, why was
I thinking about the previous point?

What's going on with this?

Uh, and what can I then do as a
strategy to not think about the

previous point when I play my next game?

Scott: Yeah.

Yeah, and I, I, I, I don't know
tennis as well, but for professional

golfers, for example, they have a
swing coach, they have a short game

coach, they have a putting coach, then
they have a, a, a mentality coach.

Uh, i- i- i- it's, I, I imagine that is
all, you know, sort of part, part of this.

Alun Bedding: Yeah, absolutely.

And there's a fantastic series of
books by Tim Gallwey called The Inner

Game Of, one called The Inner Game
of Golf, there's an Inner Game of

Tennis, there's an Inner Game of Work.

There isn't an Inner Game of
Baseball, I don't think, but then,

uh, it may be that, that I don'tâ¦

haven't even seen that yet.

But that's all about this
whole idea of having like a

swing, like say a swing coach.

Um, and, and the important
part of coaching as well is

giving somebody feedback.

So coming to your swing coach example,
somebody might not know that their,

their, their s- their s- I don't
know, they're moving their hips in a

certain direction when their swing's
happening, therefore the ball's

going off in the wrong direction.

And so the, the, the swing coach might
just turn around and say, "Do you realize

that your, your hips are twisting where,
too much when you're, you're, you're,

you're driving, driving the ball?"

They go, "I didn't realize that."

"Okay, what are you gonna do about it?"

they, you know, they, then they're
gonna say, "Well, maybe I'll, I'll, I'll

try not m- twisting my hips so much."

Okay, it might feel a bit,
bit forced at first, but after

a while it's gonna takeâ¦

it's gonna become more n-
more natural with them.

And if it

Scott: Search that

Alun Bedding: their game, brilliant

Scott: I, I, the golf example
seems simpler in the sense that the

goal's probably much more clear.

I want to shoot a lower score,

Alun Bedding: Right

Scott: in that.

And, um, uh, y- you could imagine
this, uh, the, the- there's a clock.

I know you're thinking about doing,
uh, uh, some level of sprint triathlon

and, you know, I, I want toâ¦

my best time.

You know, I, I think a lot of times
in that I just want to finish.

But, but like, you know, the goals
are, are much more clear in sport.

As a, as somebody, uh, who's coming to
you who's a statistician, a technical

person working in the pharmaceutical
industry, how hard is it to identify

what their goals are and how much
that's related to the coaching?

Alun Bedding: I, well,
as a coach, I wouldâ¦

Yeah, I mean if, let's say they come
to me, the f- the first question

I'll ask is, you know, "What do
you wanna think about today?"

Or, "What do you wanna work about today?"

and if they tell me what their goal
is, I may sort of, sort of tell them,

"Well, what does that mean to you?

important or, or, you know, whatâ¦"

Let's say they come and say, uh,
"I wanna be a better manager."

So what, what does, what does
a better manager look like?

What does a better managerâ¦

What does it, what does it
feel to be a better manager?

What would it feel like
to be a better manager?

And what would a better manager,
what would that give you?

would that give you in,
in, in your own life?

You know, what, what's important
about becoming a better manager?

So it's not necessarily the, the surface
topic, it's then just digging a bit deeper

into what's the motivations around there.

And, and I would also

Scott: Well, how do you know you're a part
of the leadership staff and not a social?

And if they say they want to be a better
manager, I'll say, "Well, okay, well

Alun Bedding: Well, what are you
gonna get out of this conversation?

How can we get you to become, to, to
have one step towards a better manager

Scott: during this conversation.

And I

Alun Bedding: And I

Scott: might say, so

Alun Bedding: "So

Scott: once it peaks at
being about a 90 G1 three

Alun Bedding: piece of being a
better manager do you wanna be?"

Um, so it's digging into
that goal and getting themâ¦

It, it, I don't need to be clear on their
goal, they need to be clear on their goal.

And I may even ask them, "Are you
clear on what your, your objective

is for this, for this session?"

Or, "Are you clear now on
what your goal actually is?"

So it's, it's getting
them the clarity in them

Scott: No, it's g- uh, uh, I, Iâ¦

And, and the parallels actually,
as you describe this to statistical

consulting, seem actually really strong.

So a, a client may come in and s- they
wanna design a trial, and they ask

for a power calculation, um, in part
because they think they're supposed to.

And, and well, w- what are
the goals of the trial?

What actually are you trying to do?

And it turns out, in many ways,
they don't want a power calculation.

That, that was not at all.

And do they wanna do adaptive?

And so a lot of times it's actually
trying to identify what is the

problem we're trying to solve?

Why are you running the trial?

That this is asking them the questions
that come with leading to a, a good

solution to whatever the problem is.

It almost seems like a similar thing,
but it's, it's the person you're trying

to diagnose, their goals, uh, in this.

Is thatâ¦

Am I, am I, am I crazy?

Alun Bedding: Yeah, no,
you're not crazy at all.

Yeah, you're, you're working with the
person, um, and that's the whole point of

coaching, is you're coaching the person.

There is a massive parallel though
with, with consulting, because

you're ab- you're absolutely right.

You know, uh, they come to
you with a power calculation.

Well, actually, what is
your goal of the trial?

What's your scientific question here?

they're, they're all
coaching type of questions.

Um, and that's where leaders and
particularly statistical leaders, when,

when they talk about coaching, that's
the sort of thing they need to be doing,

is more those types of questions, not
just taking something at first value.

what, what's, whatâ¦

Going deeper.

What's going deeper into this?

But in the

Pure coconut oil is

coaching that I would do
outside of that, it's all about

the person in front of them.

And the, the trick to being, I say
a trick, but it's, it's, it's not to

get involved with the story.

don't get involved with the story,
but get involved with the person

and just explore their motivations.

And if they say, say something, maybe
explore that one word, or if they keep

repeating a word over and over again,
the one I, I often hear is maybe.

Maybe, maybe I'll do
it, maybe I'll do that.

And I'll just say, "What
does maybe f- do for you?

What does maybe f- what,
what, what's maybe about?"

And they'll go, "Well, I didn't
realize I was saying that."

Uh, may- and then, and, but then,
then they'll be conscious and theyâ¦

it may be a case, if I say it's
a maybe, it could be that they've

Scott: Doubt in them that
that's what they wanna do.

So you saying, well, you saying maybe
a lot, what maybe means to you, they

go, "Well, I, I keep like doubting
myself whether I can do this."

Alun Bedding: in their head
if that's what they wanna do.

So you saying, you say maybe a lot.

What does maybe mean to you?"

They may go, "Well, I, I'm actually quite
doubting myself whether I can do this."

Um, and then you can
dig in something deeper.

"Okay, well, what's that
doubt doing for you?"

Or, "What would it, what would
it be like if you, if you, if

you got rid of that doubt?"

And then exploring it even further.

So it's, it's, itâ¦

I, I can't tell you what g- what
happens in every conversation because

it's so different every conversation.

Um-

Scott: And, and so when somebody, uh,
when somebody comes to you and you're,

you're getting involved in coaching,
uh, I, I imagine this, the, the critical

thing is what, what does, what's
success for that person in some sense?

You know, why, what, what are their goals?

What's success?

Are you trying to identify
why they're not there?

Um, I, i- is this more I, Iâ¦

Maybe everyone is different,
that some people have strengths.

Can we, can we push your strengths?

Can we figure out your weaknesses?

Uh, uh, i- is that part of this?

Alun Bedding: It, it could be part of it.

It doesn't have to

Scott: Hmm.

Alun Bedding: And, and it's up to them.

Um, you know, the coach- type of
coaching I do is non-directive coaching,

so I leave them to decide where
they wanna go with the conversation.

And if they say, "Well, I actually
wanna focus on my strengths for this,

this thing," well, I say, "Okay."

Like, well, I, Iâ¦

One exercise I've done quite, quite,
quite literally is get them to draw out

their strengths on a piece of paper.

Um, I said, "Don't show it to me, but
maybe stand up and look at your strengths.

What are you noticing
about those strengths?"

And then digging into that.

So it can look at
strengths and weaknesses.

Um, the other thing I, I, I, I've oftenâ¦

I, I do get a lot of people come
and say, particularly start of

the year, "What are my goals?

I wanna, I wanna work on my goals."

And I'll say, "Well, what's,
what's a challenging goal for you?"

And they go, "What do you mean
what's a challenging goal?"

"What's gonna make you excited?

What's

Scott: risk not doing it.

And if somebody says, "Well, I'm gonna-- I
can analyze one car in a year or something

like that, or write one paper in a year,"
and I know they're probably about that

good at science, I may go, "Is that really

Alun Bedding: risk not doing it?"

And, and if somebody
says, "Well, I'll goâ¦

I can analyze one trial in a year,"
or something like that, or write

one paper within a year, and I
know they can probably write about

four or five papers, I may go,
"Is that the really, the reality?"

but I also, during my coaching
conversations, we'll letâ¦

You come back to strengths, I'll
acknowledge their strengths as well.

So if they've done a lot of deep
thinking and good thinking about

a topic, I may say, "Youâ¦

Do you realize you're
such a good thinker?"

And that's just acknowledging
who they are as a person.

And that's

Scott: important in coaching is to do
that, is to acknowledge who they are

Alun Bedding: important i- in
coaching, is to do that, is

to acknowledge who they are.

Um, so yeah.

Thisâ¦

It's, umâ¦

it's such a vast area.

It really is.

Um, I th- I thought Bayesian was a
vast area, by the way, but coaching's

a m- big, vast area as well.

Scott: So it's, uh, it's interest-
some of the things you're saying

and describing, in my, uh, my
naive sense, sound like therapy.

Um, that, thatâ¦

A- and what is therapy?

I, I guess part of this is what is
therapy, but it, for, had to have somebody

talk about this and present their own
case, I, I, I suspect a lot of people

don't actually talk about themselves.

I don't, I don't remember the
last time I sat down and talked

about my goals or sort of thing.

So what is the difference then if
this is not therapy and coaching?

Yeah

Alun Bedding: great question.

Therapy, uh, no, I'm
gonna start with that.

Coaching's forward facing.

So what you're trying to do is I'm,
I'm here, and I wanna get to somewhere.

I wanna get somewhere.

And you don't dig into â¦ Well, you
can dig into a little bit of the past,

but it's more a case of digging into
that to, to, to, to give them a shift

in how they're thinking about things.

it's also very uncomfortable.

You know, therapy sounds
nice and comfortable.

It's not comfortable, by the way.

I've had, had quite a
bit of therapy myself.

Um, it, coaching can be quite challenging.

It can be very challenging for the
person you're coaching, because you're

trying to push them into a zone of
uncomforta- uh, being uncomfortable,

being uncomfortable, because that's
where the, the progression happens.

Questions?

I would a- I'm, I, I can be quite
horrible as a coach sometimes.

I can be really challenging.

and sometimes I won't let go.

So if they go off on a different tangent,
I'll say, "Well, can we come back?

Maybe we can come back to this question."

Or I may even say, "I notice
you've gone off topic.

What's going on here?"

Um, so that's the difference
between â¦ I mean, therapy's

very much backward fa- facing.

You, you, you try â¦ I, I, I'm not a
therapist myself, but I'm, I understand

what you're trying to do is understand
patterns that have happened in the

past to, to move forward a little
bit, but coaching's always forwards,

should be always forward focusing.

Uh, even in a session, they may start with

Scott: start with a

Alun Bedding: with one question.

Halfway through they may
have a different question.

The important thing in
there is, where do we need

Scott: prop with one pressure gun,
operator knows he has a pressure.

And the important thing in there
is where do we need to go next?

Alun Bedding: Not, oh, you wanted to
do this at the start, you're now here.

No, hold on, they've moved on.

So the, the whole point

Scott: The whole

Alun Bedding: for them

Scott: point is that to present

Alun Bedding: move from
here to a different place

Scott: So, so interesting.

So I mean, in some sense this, the, the
ath- the athletic coach parallel, if

they're coaching an athlete, is trying to
make that athlete be better than perhaps

they even think they are and all of that.

So this, this phrase that, uh, is on
your website as well, that your direct

and challenging approach, is that a
little bit of that, that you might

bring out of somebody more than they
actually think that they, they are?

Alun Bedding: Yeah.

Scott: Okay

Alun Bedding: that's exactly it, and
I, I, I think that's where the, the,

the parallel with sports coaching's
great because, sports coaching is

all about improving performance.

And, and the coaching I do, in a
way, is about improving performance.

It might be in a specific area,
it might be in a broader area,

but it's about p- improvingâ¦

I, I, I wouldn't say necessarily
performance, but it's about improving

themselves, and, you know, getting
to a different stage of thinking.

Yeah.

That, that parallelâ¦

And, and, yeah, I can
be quite challenging.

Um, one of the, the, the books I use is
called Challenging Coaching, and in there

they have a support challenge matrix,
um, where it's high support and high

challenge, they call it the loving boot.

So in, in essence, what you're
saying is that's a lovingâ¦

That's gonnaâ¦

That's trying to kick you on.

but a cozy conversation's not
gonna do that, and coaching

should not be a cozy conversation.

It has to be uncomfortable
for it to be effective.

Scott: Now, now I, I, I have a
question here, and I, uh, think

based on our discussion, I'm
wondering if it's a bad question.

So you can tell me this is a bad
question, but I, I originally

thought it would be niceâ¦

You know, what are common things
that technical statisticians,

um, uh, would benefit from?

Or, or, you know, what does
leadership look to benefit?

But I'm almost taking that, that
in some ways that's a bad question

because everybody's different
i- in, in, in all of that.

So to lump statisticians into a category
and for you to give coaching to, to, to

our audience might be a dumb question

Alun Bedding: It, it, it
isn't, isn't a dumb question.

Um, I do remember when I used to coach
statisticians in the past that I, I

can answer their questions and I can
mentor them rather or advise them.

And I, I, I decided actually I'm, I'm
gonna try not, not try and do that.

And as a consequence, some of the topics
that came about were, were fantastic.

And I, I, I think I could even
coach somebody now on if they're

deriving a statistical methodology.

I don't need to know that methodology.

I could just, I could just ask
them, "Well, what are you noticing

about what's, what's going on when
you're thinking about X, Y, and Z?"

Um, the, the other things I get
with, with, with, the, you know,

sort of topics I get is how
do I influence senior leaders?

How do I communicate better?

How do I present this, this topic?

Can you give me some tips on presenting?

Actually, I don't give them tips.

I just want to listen to what they're
presenting and then give them feedback.

Give them feedback about
how they're presenting.

Um, so, so there's a multitude of topics
and I, and I would say the topics that,

that face everybody are the topics
that statisticians bring as well.

and statistical leaders will
often come to me and say, just

wanna be a better leader."

then I'm gonna dig in a little
bit de- deeper, "Well, what does

it mean to be a better leader?

And what, what part of being
a better leader do you wanna,

do you wanna focus on?"

Um, and th- there's such a multitude,
like I say, such a multitude of topics.

Um, team work's one I get quite regularly.

How do I work better in this team?

uh, yeah, there's, there's, there'sâ¦

It, it'sâ¦

I'd say it's not a dumb question,
but it's not a fantastic question.

It's a broad question you asked.

Scott: Yeah.

I feel like I was just coached there.

I, I like that, yeah.

Um, what can I, can Iâ¦

I, I mean, two, two
sides of a coin perhaps.

Can I self-coach myself?

And nowadays, of course, can AI coach me

Alun Bedding: Oh, I'm gonna
answer the first one first,

then I'm gonna answer the second

Scott: Okay

Alun Bedding: the second
one's quite a good one.

Uh, well, both are good questions.

So the self-coaching
one's an interesting one.

One of the things I mentioned
was, uh, what coaching can do

is identify your blind spots.

And I think to myself, "Well, how
can you identify your blind spots?"

Because they're things you don't know.

So take the golfer, an example.

If there's n- wasn't a, a, a
swing coach with that go- with

that golfer, he wouldn't know
that his swing's out of balance.

So where I would say y- you can
self-coach yourself to a certain

extent, but it often takes a skilled
coach to be, be sitting with you

and just challenge you a little bit.

Um, because there's a lot of
self-bias when we startâ¦

You know, I'm, I'm g- I'm
guess meant self-bias being a

nice statistical word there.

But there's a lot of self-bias.

You know, we can talk ourselves

Scott: idea.

This is a fantastic idea.

Where's the cup?

Alun Bedding: saying,
"This is a fantastic idea.

This is a fantastic idea."

a coach might turn around and say, "What
is it about this ide- idea that's great?

Is that really go- or, or is that
really gonna give you what you want?"

That's a closed question,
but it might really make you

think twice about that thing.

"Or is that goal you're, you're commitâ¦

Is that challenging enough for you?

excited by that goal?

do you feel when you look
at that particular thing?"

might write down a goal which I really
like, but a, a good coach might look

and I go, "What do you really think?"

self-coaching, yeah, I don't
necessarily believe in it.

Um, now, can you use an AI coach?

This is an interesting

Scott: well, let me, be- before
you go into that, let me, uh, uhâ¦

So I, the, again, the parallels, I can't
escape this, but to have a coach but then

to s- to put it, to implement, if you
were to provide coaching to somebody,

there's gotta be a part where they then
implement what they've learned i- in that.

And that, to some extent, I don't know
if that's self-coaching, but that's part.

My brother's a professional golfer, for
example, and he gets frustrated with,

with teaching sometimes, depending
on the person, because he'll have a

session, the person comes back, and
they've done nothing, uh, i- in that.

And it's the same thing, you know,
it, it's a little bit of that.

Uh, so but that doesn't
feel like self-coaching.

That feels like implementing
what I've learned is different.

Alun Bedding: that's implementing.

And at the end of every coaching
conversation, and at every coaching

conversation I'll say this, "What are
you gonna, what are you gonna experiment

with through your lear- from, as a
consequence of your learning today?"

Um, and if they say something, I may
then go, "Okay, are you really gonnaâ¦

W- on a, on a level of one to
10, w- how are you gonnaâ¦

You know, what, what's your
level of commitment for that?"

And get them to commit.

And also then I say, "How are you
gonna hold yourself accountable?"

ask- asking all these questions
that, that makes them think,

yeah, they, they need to holdâ¦

They need to, to, to, to
e- to practice with this.

Now, if they come back at the next session
and they haven't done it, their decision.

Uh, I don't say to them, "Well,
you haven't done that," you know,

"You should have done this."

If they come to me and say, "Oh, what we
d- discussed about last time, I haven't

really done much," and blah, blah, blah.

I may, I may ask the question,
"Well, what's going on?

Scott: Ja.

Alun Bedding: stopping

Scott: Ja

Alun Bedding: What, what, what have
you learned by that experience?"

It, it's those sort of questions,
but it's not a necessaryâ¦

I don't call it homework.

I don'tâ¦

There's no such thing
as homework in coaching.

But what you definitely say is correct,
what happens outside of the coaching

room is much more powerful than what
happens inside the coaching room, because

that's where the experimentation whereâ¦

And a lot of the, the what happens is what

Scott: The block half of this block that

Alun Bedding: um, not necessarily
what happens in the coaching

Scott: Okay, so, so AI.

Uh, AI-based coaching.

Uh, I, by the way, they, m- my,
my son did this with golf is he

puts his golf swing in and, and AI
tells him how to improve his game.

Can I do that with my career, with,
you know, uh, you know, just use AI?

Alun Bedding: So, yeah, no, this is--
and AI, AI coaching at the moment is one

of the big topics, has been for a while.

Um, and I attended an International
Coaching Federation conference

earlier this year where it
was one of the big topics.

Um, and there's a lot of, uh,
companies developing AI coaches.

I'm, I'm developing one
for myself, by the way.

Iâ¦

Here's my, my take on AI coaching.

If you want a conversation with
something, so I want some coaching on

m-my goal, I wanna get, get a better goal.

And so if it's just that sort of question
and answer type stuff, or if you're

following a particular coaching model,
AI coaching will do that perfectly.

Where the better coaches come in is
where they can bring themselves into it.

You know, I'm, I'm sensing something'sâ¦

You know, when I, when I'm in a
coaching session, I, I may say,

"I'm sensing something's going wrong
here," or, "I'm sensing you're not

feeling, you're not feeling brilliant."

AI is not gonna do that.

Um, I, I would also c-encourage
people not to go to ChatGPT or Claude

or something like that to do their
coaching, because they, they're

not trained on coaching models.

Whereas y-youâ¦

An AI coach, you can train it on a model.

Um, a-and, and as we know, all models
are wrong, but some are useful.

Um,

Scott: Hmm.

Alun Bedding: it's exactly
the same with an AI coach.

You- whatever model you put in it,
it's not gonna be that human, the

best, the best coaches out there are
the ones that are bringing themselves

into the conversation, being a lot
more human and a lot more, uh, about

how they're feeling and getting the
person to think how they're feeling.

Your AI coach is never gonna ask you

Scott: questionable,

Alun Bedding: "Well, where
are you feeling that in

Scott: but you're feeling

Alun Bedding: You

Scott: like you're falling quickly

Alun Bedding: where are
you feeling that stress?

Where are you feeling thatâ¦"

When you ask that question,
what's going on in your body?

The, the AI coach is not gonna ask that.

Scott: It's interesting, and there's
a parallel to statisticians in,

in, in trial design statisticians.

AI can do a lot of things for
statisticians, but does it

ask the question, "Are you
sure that's the right goal?

Are you sure this is trying to do theâ¦

What about this, or what about that?"

So I think there are parallels there
that I don't think you, you can replace

a good statistician with an AI, but AI
can greatly enhance th- them in that

Alun Bedding: And that's
the, that's the key.

It's that enhancement.

And coming back to your statistic
example, what AI, i- if you put in

there, "This is my, the objective of my
study," well, AI is gonna come up with

a Bayesian adaptive platform trial.

They're not gonna come
up with that, are they?

They're not gonna come up with it.

I- I mean, it's gonna take them
a- a forever to come up with that.

Whereas you could use it and say,
"Well, I'm exploring this topic.

Can you give me some papers
that, uh, uh, are on this topic?"

and I, you know, my, one of my coaches,
he has his own AI coach, and he w- what

he will do is put some of the questions
in there, and he'll say, "Oh, let's ask my

AI what, what, what they think of that."

And it can provoke an,
a different question.

It can provoke a little bit of movement.

So AI's not gonna go away.

AI coaching as well is gonna become
bigger and bigger and bigger.

So we need to work out a way of
integrating AI into coaching similar to

what we're, we're, I think we're, we're,
we're doing within drug development

Scott: I think we, we, we're doing
within drug development So being a

quantitative person, do you take value
in things like a Myers-Briggs test or a

quantitative test, uh, uh, about people?

Does that help you as a coach?

Or you seem like a, um, a, a, a, a human,
you know, I'm trying to perceive what's

going on, I'm trying to perceive this,
but is there value in something like that?

Alun Bedding: There, there
can be a lot of value.

I don't pers- I, I, I am trained in what's
called the Leadership Circle Profile,

which is a, a, a, a thing we used to use
at Roche to, to, to evaluate our leaders.

I don't use that in my
coaching because it's moreâ¦

It's, it, it's gonna lead people.

So if I see somebody's LCP, uh, and I go,
"Well, I think we should be focusing on

this," that's me, me now stepping out.

I'm not a coach anymore because
I'm leading the conversation.

However, if, if say somebody does a
Myers-Briggs and they recognize there's

some trait they wanna work on, may
bring that to coaching, but that's

their choice to bring that to coaching.

Um, so, so I, I'm not a massive fan
of them, but I, I, I think they can

ha- Again, they're like any model.

They have their benefits.

They might

Scott: they might
identify some blind spots

Alun Bedding: blind spots to,
to start with, and to start that

coaching off in the first place

Scott: So, uh, y- you as a coach,
different than the person you're coaching,

um, how do you know if you're successful?

Alun Bedding: Um, you don't always.

Scott: Yeah

Alun Bedding: it, it can just be
sometimes they, they will turn around

and go, "Wow, I can't believe I've
got the answer to my question."

And, and something may make
a shift, and I'm like, "Oh, I

don't know what's gone on here.

I don't know what's happened."

I don't dig in.

I knowâ¦

I've had that happen.

I've had that co- I was coaching, when
I was coaching somebody in Rosh where I

asked this one question, and of a sudden
this flood of stuff came out, and at the

end she went, "I've got so much in this
conversation, and I still don't know to

this day what it, what it was all about."

I'm like, "Really?

I've no idea of that one."

So yeah, it, it, it, it can be.

And I, I've had coaching myself and where
just happened, and I'm like, thatâ¦

How did I come by that answer?

I don't know where that came from."

And my coach has just looked at
me and gone, "I, I don't thinkâ¦

I, I, I couldn't see if
that was a success or not."

And, and you don't often know.

You couldâ¦

I mean, at the end of a coaching
conversation, I may say, um, you

know, "Has this worked for you?"

Or, you know, "What are, what
are you taking away from this?"

Or I'll never ask, you know, "Has
it been g- been, been good for you?"

Because I'm asking there,
"Have I been good for

Scott: Right.

Alun Bedding: Um, it's more a case
of, you know, been a success for you?"

you know, "Have you got what
you needed for today from this?"

Um, and someti- and, and sometimes it m-
uh, we come back to after the session,

they may come back to me and say,
"Oh, um, that experiment, I tried it.

Fabulous.

It was a really real big success."

it, it'sâ¦

You don't always know it's gonna be
a success, and sometimes it's not.

Sometimes coaching
doesn't work for somebody.

and, and that's fine as well.

They step out of coaching.

They've explored it, but they s- if
they wanna step out, they step out

Scott: Is there advice to people out
there listening as to, um, who, who

would be ideal for, for coaching?

I, uh, to some extent is the
answer you think everybody would,

would get benefit out of this?

Are, are, are there ideal people
out there listening where some level

of coaching would be beneficial?

Alun Bedding: I, I would say if you've
got a question, I'm not gonna say a

problem, but if you've got a question
in your mind about something, then

you might benefit from coaching.

But what I'd then say is, make
sure you're ready for coaching.

Make sure you're, you want coaching,
because coaching's hard work.

It's not about coming to me and
me then saying, "Well, this is

how you need to do your problem."

No, I'm gonna work you through
how you can solve that, how to

answer that question yourself.

So, you're gonna have to do a lot
of work and a lot of deep thinking.

Um, and it can be tiring, and
not everybody wants to do that.

Some people want the answer.

But the, the real successful people
will love coaching becauseâ¦

I don't know, I don't know about you,
but whenever I've thought of something

myself, I've always be- felt better than
if somebody's given me the solution.

Um, so, so yeah, anybody, anybody who's
out there who's got a question or a big

question, it could even be a big question.

I'm, I'm starting working with
somebody soon, and they've said,

"I've got so many big questions."

I'm like, "Well, brilliant.

Let's explore these big questions."

and it'll be br- we'll break
it down into small chunks.

And, and, you know, where I wanna
move them is up and up and up.

So it, it's, umâ¦

I think you've got to
be ready for coaching.

You got, you've got to be coachable.

Not everybody's coachable.

Um, a- and, and Iâ¦

W- when Iâ¦

Before I coach anybody, I will do a, a,
what's, what's called a discovery session.

of that discovery session
is a coaching session.

It's not a chemistry

Scott: Yeah

Alun Bedding: or anything like that.

It's about discovering are they coachable.

Um, and if theyâ¦

And, and, and they may discover
am I the right coach for them,

but I wanna make sure they're
the right person for me to coach.

I'll doâ¦

It's almost like a demo
coaching session with.

It's a real coaching session, but
it's more for me to understand, you

know, are they ready to be coached?

Scott: Yeah.

Alun Bedding: a sense of that.

Scott: Yeah.

Yeah, fantastic.

Uh, uh, uh, it's such, such cool stuff.

If you, if you want to look up, uh,
Alan, uh, alanbettingcoaching.com,

and you can sign up for this free,
free intro session, uh, with that.

So Alan, appreciate it.

Very interesting conversation.

Thank you for coming on.

Uh, thank you for joining me.

Alun Bedding: very much.

Well, the other place to connect

Scott: Yeah

Alun Bedding: uh, I'm not on any
social media apart from LinkedIn.

So I am on LinkedIn.

There's only one Alan Bedding, I
think, on LinkedIn, so that person

Scott: Uh, the, the one
and only Alan Bedding.

Uh, yes.

Uh, uh, thank you for joining me,
and for everybody else out there,

appreciate you joining on the episode.

And until next time, we'll
be here in the interim

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