Sympathetic Renovation with Dave Zinkand

For fifteen years, Dave Zinkand's name never made it onto the scorecard. He was the guy in the field for Bill Coore and Ben Crenshaw — Bandon Trails, Bandon Preserve, WeKoPa— learning to be an editor of his own work. Now the decisions land on his desk, and his name is the one members attach to the outcome. In this episode of The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf, Dave Zinkand of Zinkand Golf Design joins host Matt Considine and co-host Dr. Kevin Moore (aka "The Professor") to talk about what actually changes when you step to the front of the room — and why the entire craft might come down to a single word a stranger handed him at Port Marnock: angles.

The conversation dives into:

• Restoration vs. renovation, and the "sympathetic renovation" middle ground — including Old Elm, where Harry Colt designed a course he never saw, Donald Ross took liberties in his absence, and Dave's team finally built Colt's torn-edge bunkers for the first time, a century later.
• Reversible golf at Medinah Country Club: a nine-hole, par-31 course routed through a floodplain with two double greens — and the rare owner (Bill Cosgrove) who greenlit the fun idea first, before the "serious" work. 
• Saddle & Cycle Club: three acres of golf inside a Chicago social club, and the case for sub-three-hour experiences as the missing rung on the ladder that brings people into the game.
• Naturalized bunkering, native areas, and the honest maintenance math behind the rugged look — plus why a great superintendent's buy-in matters as much as the drawing.

Connect with our guest

Dave Zinkand — Zinkand Golf Design: https://zinkandgolfdesign.com/
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💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-zinkand-a689a64/

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Chapters

02:14 Introducing Dave Zinkand 
04:38 The Professor's fact of the day: the octopus
07:35 Partner break — Titleist GTS drivers and MOI
09:02 From the field for Coore & Crenshaw to your own name on the door
13:40 Editing your own work, and being open to your team's ideas
15:11 Strategy and playability: the one word is "angles"
18:59 The Dreer Award — Hoylake, Rye, and learning the links
22:41 Firm vs. soft: designing angles for wet Ohio Junes
27:03 The superintendent relationship and earning buy-in
30:13 Rugged, naturalized bunkering and the maintenance trade-offs
35:37 Restoration vs. renovation, and "sympathetic renovation"
40:20 Old Elm: Harry Colt's intent, Ross's liberties, and bunkers built at last
44:17 Saddle & Cycle: three acres of golf in the city
49:50 Short courses, the "ladder of learning," and sub-three-hour golf
54:37 Reversible golf and the Medina par-31
1:05:02 What's different when you route a course to play both ways
1:08:28 The best reversible not named the Old Course: Doak's Loop
1:12:36 One habit that travels everywhere — and the Irishman's word: balance

What is The Bag Drop?

The Bag Drop features weekly stories from the culture, community and characters shaping golf today. Produced by NewClub Golf Society, each episode blends authenticity and expert insights for passionate golfers at all levels. Special guests from clubs, courses and every corner of the changing landscape join us for thoughtful, in‑depth discussions on all things golf.

What is NewClub?

Founded in 2017, NewClub is the premier private golf society in the United States. It blends the community and access of a private club with the variety and affordability of public golf. Members enjoy thousands of reserved tee times, competitions and events at exceptional partner courses across our local chapters, as well as signature trips and exclusive perks. NewClub is revolutionizing golf membership, making the game more meaningful for those who love it.

Creators and Guests

Host

Matt Considine

Founder of NewClub and our resident feel player. Matt’s junior golf career led him to the University of Akron where he met our co-host. During his junior year, Matt Studied abroad in Ireland and discovered golf societies. Subsequent trips to Scotland fed his passion for the history, ideals, and culture of accessible, affordable, and sustainable golf, a concept he would later bring to the U.S. with NewClub. Known for his interviewing style, quick wit, and compelling storytelling, Matt brings thoughtful, reflective conversations to The Bag Drop. His professional journey before NewClub included multiple leadership positions in growth-stage startups, where he managed teams responsible for more than $250 million in revenue. Matt actively gives back to the game as a Board Member of the First Tee of Akron and past chair of the Evans Scholar Foundation. Proudly based in his hometown of Akron, Ohio, Matt finds inspiration in family life with his wife, their three children, and their golf dog, Gypsy.

Host

The Professor

NewClub's Chief Ambassador and every golf sicko's favorite educator. Kevin is a thoughtful and deeply curious host. His studied, constructivist approach adds intellectual enrichment and balance to the show. As a professor of Math Education at the University of Georgia, Kevin's background in applied mathematics and cognitive psychology uniquely informs his insights on golf strategy and performance. Originally from Ohio, Kevin was a Division I collegiate golfer at the University of Akron, where his passion for understanding mathematical thinking began. After earning his doctorate from Arizona State University, he combined his analytical expertise with his love for golf by co-founding Golf Blueprint, an organization aimed at helping golfers optimize their games through data-driven strategies. Kevin enjoys balancing deep philosophical discussions with simple pleasures, such as indulging his sweet tooth, cheering on college football, and spending relaxed evenings with his friends, his wife, and their beloved dog, Nole.

What is The Bag Drop: Untold Stories in Golf?

Deeply researched audio documentaries that tell the definitive stories behind golf's greatest clubs + weekly conversations with the characters and communities shaping golf today.

Dave Zinkand (00:00)
we want to take instead of you know the the term that we use and and it's we're not exclusive to it, but the term that we use is is sympathetic renovation, right? It's not trying to be completely restorative. It's not trying to go in a direction where the members who have played there for you know like

Maybe you've got a second generation member, right, who grew up literally on that golf course. They probably don't want to not recognize it when you're done. And

The Professor (00:27)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Zinkand (00:28)
so if you can take the things that they love about the place and embellish them and take the things that they don't like about the place and say, we're gonna transform these and you won't remember what was there.

'Cause you didn't like it to begin with, then that's a pretty fun place to be, right?

Matt Considine (00:50)
Welcome

to the Bag Drop, Untold Stories in Golf. I'm your host, Matt Constein, here with my co host, the Professor. Professor, how are ya? Good morning.

The Professor (01:00)
You're oddly chipper this morning. I s I sense a lot of energy coming from you. Where where's that coming?

Matt Considine (01:06)
I'm I'm feeling good. It was it was a good week from so many levels. Played a little golf, one of my favorite places I grew up at. played with good people, made some strides on the business front. My kids, I'll tell you this. Here, this is a a tribute to you, Professor the K Kevin does something that I always found very unusual. And it's if people aren't listening to him, if we're in a group and he's and he's talking,

And people aren't listening, he doesn't stop talking, he just talks quieter. He just lowers his voice. He gets kind of and I I thought about this with my kids because they stopped listening to me quite a while ago. And I I just started talking quieter. And you know what you know what? It worked. It worked. They they looked at me and kind of go, What's he saying? And so I I just wanted to give you a shout out with that strategy. It's it's I know you don't have kids, but

It it works. It works with all human beings apparently.

The Professor (02:00)
You know, if Claire was actually a listener to this podcast, she'd be cracking up 'cause she gives me the hardest time about me doing that. Just all the time. you

you also played paparazzi this week too. I I was getting pictures from you criticizing slow play, too many practice swings from someone on the course at the same time. You you didn't

Matt Considine (02:19)
There's there's

many I know y I know you're you're alluding to there's many great men from my hometown of Akron, Ohio. one of them has recently taken up to the game of golf and it's all the rage because he's playing all around town through the summer. but yeah, l I I I gotta get a game with LeBron and just explain to him that two practice swings are too w are one too many. We we gotta keep it moving. You gotta, you know, just just visualize, see that ball.

you know, out of your hand into the hoop. but he's getting there. He's got his his swing is much improved, I will say. Much improved.

The Professor (02:53)
I I I

would hope when you're playing that much golf and you're that athletic, your swing would your swing would get better.

Matt Considine (02:58)
That's right. That's right. And he I don't know if he's reached the golf course architecture appreciation stage of his golf journey, but if he has, he will definitely enjoy today's episode. I this one, Kevin, that actually adds to w why

I have a lot of energy this morning. Dave Zinkand is coming on the podcast wit today. Dave's been been a name that I think you initially put on my radar way back when he is an Ohio guy.

so that always is tugs at the heartstrings, but really prolific and and a phenomenal designer that's worked all across the country and so many different regions. And I'm really excited to have Dave on the show.

The Professor (03:40)
Yeah, and shout out to our friend Jason Way, who was actually the one that connected me with Dave Zinkin. We spent a day down at Aiken Golf Club and maybe didn't play Aiken Golf Club, I forget played Aiken that day. Definitely played Palmeadow, I believe that day. just yeah, one of those I think fitting to the Bag Drop, the untold stories of golf. Not a lot of people maybe have heard his name, but then when you look at his portfolio, who he's worked with, the projects he's worked on, just his history of

Going to Cornell, participating in the Drear Award and traveling to all the UK. just one of those guys. He does a good job of staying under the radar. So we'll we'll pull back the sheets a little bit for the public out there.

Matt Considine (04:17)
Yeah, I got I I I'll have a few questions about that radar, because you're right. When you look at the the the work, the you know working for Corin Crenshaw and Bandon Trails, Bandon Preserve to Weekopah, his own firm, you know, Old Elm, Sharon, another great golf course here in northeast Ohio, Nollwood, Bigfoot, Monterey Peninsula, Chessy,

There's there's so many a cool project in downtown Chicago, right where I used to live that I I gotta know more about today. he's just one of those architects who's worked with other great ones, but has really made him a name for himself. And I think serious golfers, you know, know Dave and and it's gonna be fun. It's gonna be fun chatting with him today. before we get there, what do you got for us, Professor? Any good teachings, profondecations

The Professor (05:00)
You got

Matt Considine (05:01)
you can bestow?

The Professor (05:02)
do you got a favorite sea animal? Well, let me a are the are you a planet earth guy? You know, like those shows, David Attenborough, just put them on in the background. 'Cause I'm a huge, huge fan. I could just every Sunday morning put them on the background, let them go for five hours as I do work, pedal around the house. Huge fan. You you into that stuff?

Matt Considine (05:19)
I I

am. I really am. Yeah. I don't I don't maybe get into the underwater ones as much. I like entomology because of new club's logo. So I've always I really have enjoyed there's a good

The Professor (05:29)
Mm, mm.

Matt Considine (05:30)
B one out there on Disney or I can't remember who did who does Disney's, but t tell t tell me, tell

me more.

The Professor (05:38)
Yeah, so I'm a huge sea fan. I wanted to be an oceanographer as a kid, you know, that dream that for the longest didn't pursue it.

Matt Considine (05:44)
Jacques Cousteau.

The Professor (05:46)
yeah, I love Jacques Cousteau. Watch any consume anything on him as a kid. well, anyways, the ocean's full of incredibly brilliant creatures. Pride the Dolphin comes to mind immediately. the the Orca killer whale. But the octopus is actually one of the smartest creatures in the sea. There's a famous story, I forget which it's a chefslash food critic.

I for it's not Stanley Tucci, it's one of the other big ones that's on TV. You know, he talks about to the extent he won't eat octopus because he went to a place, like met an octopus. It somehow remembered him when he came back a year later. Like it showed signs of actually remembering who he was. And this is I believe this is actually legitimate science that octopus do have incredible memories. So he won't eat them because of their intelligence. And they're fascinating creatures, even even just beyond their intelligence.

The fact of the day is they have three hearts and blue blood. Yeah, so not just one heart, not just two hearts, but three hearts.

Matt Considine (06:37)
I kn I knew the blue bud the blue blood part. How do they have three hearts?

The Professor (06:43)
Yeah, so two pump blood to the gills, and then one pumps it to the rest of the body, so their muscular structure, and everything else. that main heart, the one that's pumping to the rest of the body, actually stops beating when the octopus swims. So that's why they move around really slow, because when they start swimming fast.

That heart shuts down and then it's incredibly taxing on the body. They run through their reserves really, really quickly. That's why they look so slow, typically, and they just really crawl along the ocean to see you because they want to keep that heart pumping. but then the blue blood comes from they use a copper-based, it's hemi hemocyanin, I think it's called. Whereas we're iron-based hemoglobin to carry oxygen. It's what carries their oxygen. It's a copper-based mechanism, and that's why they have blue blood, and that works much better.

in cold low oxygen oxygen water. So fascinating creatures.

Matt Considine (07:32)
There you go. There you go. Well,

you know, my my wife sporadically listens to this podcast. So she just listened to that intro. We I love Kraut calamari. She usually it's one of the few things she'll like eat if it's fried. that's out the window now. Now that you told told

The Professor (07:48)
Ha ha.

Matt Considine (07:49)
us about the intelligence and the three hearts, she's she's not touching it for for a long time. the Bag Drop Podcast is in partnership with

Titleist and they're all new GTS drivers. Professor, what do you know about MOI? What do you know about the moment of inertia?

The Professor (08:05)
I I know it's about the most important thing to get a good dynamic ball launch. That's at your optimal spot.

Matt Considine (08:11)
That's right. And they have the the new split mass frame. I I've been feel you know I'm a feel guy. I've been feeling something different with my new GTS,

The Professor (08:19)
Mm.

Matt Considine (08:19)
but I wasn't able to really kind of get down to it. Well, the split mass frame is the one that balances an ultra forward center of gravity for that maximum ball speed with an optimized MOI for stability. So that MOI you can play with with their new back end and front ended.

waiting system. I

I don't want to go too far down the rabbit hole with with my own tinkering because we all know tinkering, you just gotta commit. But if you are trying to dial in your stability, check out the all new GTS drivers with that weighting system, the opportunities are are endless. The the different options you have higher speeds, straighter even off those off center hits. Professor, let's get on the show.

Dave Zinken. Well, welcome to the Bag Drop

Dave Zinkand (09:13)
Thanks, I appreciate it. Thank you, Matt. Thanks, Professor. Glad to be here. Excited to talk.

Matt Considine (09:17)
It's you

know, I I I've gotten a lot of my friends into golf course architecture and and so now they they they kinda know a little bit of what they're talking about and they they know the big names, you know, the celebrity chefs. But I get excited to introduce them to people like yourself who I I've just become a a big fan of a lot of your work. And I I want to start with this question though, because the professor in our intro mentioned

un under the radar, you know, a term that can be used quite a bit. I think in the in the right circles, many circles you are you are not, but you did spend just a long time doing serious work with for Coor and Crenshaw. And, you know, the scorecard didn't say Dave Zinkin at at the end of a a project. So I'm I'm curious, you know, now that the decisions are landing on your desk and your name is is the one, you know, members are going to attach to the outcome of their golf course, what changes

in your head when you become that person who's in the front of the room.

Dave Zinkand (10:16)
Yeah. Well a and I think to start I would say it's it's easier to work for yourself than it is to take on the responsibility of fulfilling somebody else's expectations. Not that Bill or Ben, either of them were difficult to work for, they they were not and I felt like they were they were very open to the process and what we would do in the field to make things come alive, right?

And the expectation that either of them had was nothing would ever look like what they expected it to look like when they came back to town, right? but it's just it's the whole process of of doing work on your own has

has evolved for me. You know, we've we've we've become a bigger organization.

We you know we

to work in. But I I just really have enjoyed that that chance to to transition over and and I know that you know the time that was spent with Bill and Ben was really an opportunity for me to learn how to be an editor of my own work. And I think that was that's been you know almost as important as anything in the

In the evolution of my career is that chance to be able to say, I think I've got something here. Am I too in love with it? Does it need to change? Can I take a step back from it? You know, you see a lot of work.

Really trying to blow people away, and it's like not every hole and not every aspect of a golf hole can be that way and and make you want to come back and play it again and again, right? You've gotta have some drama, but you've also gotta have some quiet. And it gives me a chance to, you know, to try and work on strategy and playability to be able to step back from my work and not always be in love with what I came up with, knowing that many a time either Bill or Ben or

myself eventually have looked at my work and said, yeah, you can do this. So that's been a big deal.

Matt Considine (12:21)
It yeah,

I I I I I like the way you said about editing your own work. I w I wanted to follow up and and double click on that because the professor and I actually have kind of an editing relationship going on for a project that him and I are working on. And I noticed that when it's my own creation or something I said or wrote, I just change it.

You know, if I see something that's off, I I just I just change it. But if it's something the professor said or wrote, I I have to kind of phrase it a certain way of what I'm seeing, or I gotta consider how he's gonna interpret the the cut or the how how does that play out in in your world of is it is it very similar with if you know, Bill Coor, you gotta think about how you're gonna present the thing you're looking to change or

Dave Zinkand (13:10)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (13:10)
for yourself,

you're just like I I don't need to check this with anybody. I'm I'm ripping this bunker out.

Dave Zinkand (13:14)
Yeah, well I you know, like now I come on site and I see something that's different than I expect and you've gotta have an open mind just like Bill and Ben always did, to understand that there's some backstory that you might not know, right? And and so, you know, sometimes it's literal infrastructure that's causing a problem that you're responding to or or an engineering aspect or or

you know, sometimes it's something more fun where it's like, well, you know, we tried to go this direction and damn it, that just doesn't work. And so that's how we ended up here, you know, and and and isn't this cool? And you just hope that, you know, when it was working for Bill and Ben, you just hope that that's that's the response. Well that's that's cool. I didn't expect to see that. Whereas, you know, if I'm working with my guys, you know, they're they're hoping that I'm gonna come into town and be open minded

and

And I I look at it and say, okay, well, you know, are we are we elevating the product or is are we leaving something on the table and and and if we're elevating things and it's not my idea, I'm pretty damn cool with it. You know. Good artists copy, great artists steal, and I'm I'm happy for somebody to help me help me look even better by contributing their work, just like I did for Bill and Ben.

The Professor (14:30)
I think that's such a critical approach anytime you're working with a team. Right. There's nothing better you can do than give agency to those that are working underneath you to grow in their own way and you know, learn their own craft. It just helps them develop their own identity because eventually they're probably gonna move on from you. Dave, you brought up strategy and playability. And I think these are two terms that just get thrown around in the golf course architecture world. And if you live within that world,

There's kind of a shared understanding there. But if you're just on the fringe or trying to get interested in golf course architecture, you hear the words but aren't quite sure what they mean. You know, in your mind when you think of strategy and and playability around designing a golf course, what comes to the forefront? Help invite our listeners into what that means coming from the designer themselves.

Dave Zinkand (15:15)
Yeah, they're definitely intertwined and

Actually, when I was on the Drear Ward in ninety-seven and ninety-eight, it would actually have been April of ninety-eight. I was I was in Ireland and I was walking around Port Marnock and you know I'd been doing this for six months at that point. I was halfway through my year over abroad, looking at all the great seaside and heathland courses, and

This guy walks up to me, he What are you doing? I said, I'm looking at the design of the golf course and it didn't take him long to come back and say, I could sum up what you guys do in one word. He said, angles. And you know, I'm sitting there thinking, what the heck's this guy gonna say? This'll be interesting.

Damn, he nailed it. He absolutely nailed it, right? Angles is exactly what we're always working on. And, you know, in to a certain extent, you're trying to get those angles challenging enough to require the best players to work the hardest and open enough that the the average or high handicapper can can maneuver around.

And so, you know, some of it's making angles that like like preferring, in my case, preferring contour over more substantial hazards like bunkers or water or things like that. Not to say that of course those don't often provide the the line of charm or or you know the dramatic feature of a golf hole,

but then being able to take advantage of of the run and roll and and bounce of the ball.

because of the way the ground is contoured, to provide more nuanced mechanics, you know, to to the way the the game plays out so that the higher handicapper does have the ability to get around. They might not always love exactly how their ball responds, but they've got, you know, generally got a way to recover.

if something goes wrong and the guy who's trying to you know the guy who's out there knowing that the people he's competing against are shooting for a birdie rather than a bogey has to look at those contours differently because he can't afford to be on the other side of them because that is the difference between a birdie and a par.

Matt Considine (17:25)
By the way, I know I know you were at Port Marnock. are you sure that gentleman was an Irishman? Because brevity is not their strength. I I have a lot of lineage there and we talk way too I've never heard an Irishman say, I got one word. They usually they'll they might say that and then they'll say Okay, there you go.

Dave Zinkand (17:38)
no it took him a long time to get to that word.

He was definitely sure he knew what I did for a living and he explained a lot about it. But when he came down to the word he was right. Yeah.

Matt Considine (17:50)
There you go. He just it was about delivery. Yeah, good,

good. Just just just fac check fact checking, making sure.

Dave Zinkand (17:55)
Yeah, yeah, you were you were dead on.

The Professor (17:59)
So, Dave, you brought up the Drew Award and I'm very jealous of you. Could you tell us a little bit about that ward? And I want I'm also to put you on the spot. Was there anything on that trip when you're viewing all these golf courses, you brought this idea of this idea of angles and what it does for a great player versus, you know, a a casual player, any hole that stood out to you on that trip said, Wow, that's I gotta remember that one for the rest of my life?

Dave Zinkand (18:23)
Mmm, wow. So, you know, the the trip was in like I said, you know, in the last century, right? So here I am, you know, twenty, what, twenty-eight years later. And so a lot of what I think about and remember from

Very conceptual. and so I drew a lot of ideas off of it, and I can see a lot of golf holes from there in my mind, but but ultimately it was taking taking things like angles and kind of understanding them in a way that I could then go and apply them for Bill and Ben and eventually on my own. but yeah, I mean, like places like

I would go I would I would tend to go more towards entire golf courses than than singular holes. although there there's singular holes like like at at Hoy Lake where you look at the out of bounds, you know, on the inside of the hole and you say, That is everything to this golf hole. Like if you woke up not feeling ready to play.

and and you trying to attack that golf hole, you're gonna be in trouble, right? you're you're just gonna lay out away from the out of bounds on the inside of the golf hole where those cops are, cops being very small mounds that define an artificial out of bounds on the inside of of this essentially dog leg golf hole. And you know and if you aren't feeling up to it, you just w play way out.

Set up for the angle that you've given yourself, right? But on to like broader golf courses, you know, rye on the southeast coast of England. You know, the south coast of England has some pretty damn good golf that that gets overlooked when people are headed to Scotland and Ireland. But Rye.

In the fact that it takes a very simple set of dune ridges, you know, that are geologically extraordinarily complex, but from a just geometrical standpoint are fairly simple once you kind of look at how they lay out, and it uses them in every imaginable.

side of them, up to them, you know, down from them. the seventh, you know, is it kind of plays from a ridge to to sort of a of a high point.

on on a more independent so everything is just one thing to the next new across the eighteen holes. And I think that's a lot of what you're trying to do when you're in my position is is to figure out eighteen ways to present the same cohesive product in all sorts of you know varied ways. Presswork, St. Andrews, those are great ones too, that you could you could dissect in a big way, right?

Matt Considine (21:03)
You br bringing up those links courses, it it

Dave Zinkand (21:07)
Mm.

Matt Considine (21:08)
and combining it with just the angles discussion. I I've always been curious about this, Dave. the professor and I share that same affinity and I mean it really was what opened our eyes. Kevin, I don't want to speak for you, but it just being over there and playing that type of version of golf, you become much more appreciative of the strategic elements and angles of of the courses, you know, back home and

And but but I always wondered about in your seat this balance when you know clearly the the turf the sandy soils, the tight fairways of the southeast coast of England, for example, or even band in banded trails and preserve that you worked on, you know, versus the the courses you've done here in where I'm at in the in northeast Ohio, you know, there there's gonna be softer conditions, there's gonna be a wet

June every once in a while. how do you think about your angles, the approach of of each contour, let's say, when you all when you have to consider, you know, you don't I building something I don't at at Bandon or on the links land, you probably don't have to consider what what it's going to be like when it's soft, but how much does that come into play for you?

when you're thinking about the regional differences and just like, yeah, this this this area could have some wetter, softer conditions. How's my

Dave Zinkand (22:27)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (22:27)
angle gonna play?

Dave Zinkand (22:29)
And I think that's something you have to consider everywhere, even on on the sandier sites, because you don't you know, you don't have the opportunity to control how they're going to be maintained. Now I've had the luxury of working with a lot of great superintendents, including

you know, some in northeast Ohio, like David Wilmot there at Sharon, you know, he he's he keeps that place lean and firm in a way that is just fun and exciting, right? and maybe more so than I ever expected it would play.

so you know it's a it's a real balancing act to to set things up so that you you get that bounce and you get that action, you know, when the ball lands and the ability for the golfer to have a reasonably predictable, you know, opportunity to to play a shot, right? Like sometimes sometimes you're not trying to give them predictability.

Because they've put it in the wrong spot. But but when you're telling somebody like this is a golf course where you can play a lot of running shots like we did there, then you better you you better produce, right? And so, you know, some of that is on a on a very practical standpoint is produced by providing good surface drainage and making sure that those areas, you know, when you're trying to turn a ball or run a ball.

you benefit generally from the fact that that's probably higher ground, and so you can take advantage of that and you can shed water in certain directions and try and keep the water away from the green. but you're also dealing with the fact that you're often actually draining water onto a green in some respect because of the fact that you're trying to turn a ball or or even in a fairway where you're where you're turning a

giving a guy a chance to you know to take advantage of an opportunity that might very well be paired up with with a hazard that is sort of their worst worst case scenario, right?

So so it's you yeah, you gotta be pretty practical about about how you look at the drainage side of things to be able to make sure that you're setting people up for success who are gonna take care of the golf course and allowing them to elevate it and and sort of know how to to pull back the reins on on the way the course is presented when they need to, you know, if you're in a drought or something like that.

The Professor (24:54)
You brought up, you know, superintendents. How do you as a designer look at that relationship with the future superintendent upkeep of a course as you're going about designing it and thinking about what's gonna be laid out on that piece of property?

Dave Zinkand (25:10)
Yeah. Well, first of all you have to have their buy-in, right? Like the guy who's gonna take care of the place needs to love what you're doing and and so I you know, they're it the those relationships are some of the most fun that we get to have because most of the time, like the the superintendent is a real gamer, you know, they they're they're they're on it and they're ready

The Professor (25:32)
Yeah.

Dave Zinkand (25:32)
and they're excited. They're more excited than probably anybody at the club to be able to

to take on the work. They know it's gonna be a you know maybe a year, two, three, four, depending on how you're handling the work. you know, if it's a renovation, they they might take you know they might take on a heck of a lot more

an existing golf course. But they, you know, they're they're very excited about the opportunity and it's and it's an opportunity for them and their career as well. So so being able to work with them and and develop

a a relationship but also a platform that they're excited about is is great. And I always tell clients, because you know when you start talking with clients whether it be members or staff or specifically superintendents, you know, quite often they're concerned about telling you too much of about their opinions with the fear of you know kind of kind of biasing you towards or

away from certain things. And well there is certainly some expectation on our part that like maybe we won't be we won't be exposed to certain things like concepts that other people have come up with or or

or or or you know, matters that have been considered internally right up front, we would we would say, you know, like give us time to ponder these things and then we'll come back to you and then then then show us so show us some other things that you've that you've pondered yourselves and whatnot, and then we can come come to terms with all that. But but we're really trying to actually learn about

they want as a way to differentiate the work from what we did somewhere else. So,

The Professor (27:14)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Zinkand (27:14)
you know, from one client to the next, hearing that somebody wants to be, you know, they will they want to look at things differently, actually we just let that play into differentiating our, you know, our results.

So that's really actually fun to be able to come strike that balance between maybe our preconceived notions, their preconceived notions, and then and then turning that into the eventual results.

Matt Considine (27:42)
the there's a aesthetic, Dave, that I I've played a few of the in your body of work, the private clubs that will after you were done, it had a bit more of the rugged bunkering, the native areas, the the naturalized edges, and and I just love it. and I'm sure not all members do. You know, a lot of those places

probably prior had that more nineties motif and a lot of green, right? And I just aesthetically I just love a contrast. And I and I know probably because of places like Bandin and more overseas travel this is a trend that has probably gotten more favor. But I wanna ask this from a standpoint of maintenance. And you know, your relationships with the superintendents and those maintenance crews

Wha what's the general response when the direction is headed that way when we want to present it as a bit more naturalized? some of those native areas, some of those, you know, rugger more rugged bunkering. Is that mostly ro well received in your opinion, or do you get a lot of pushback on that from the maintenance groups?

Dave Zinkand (28:49)
Yeah, it's a combination of things, right? Because on the one hand you can look at a naturalized bunker, in other words, a bunker where you're not maintaining a crisp you know cut edge on the lip or you know, very well manicured turf on the face and you know, up up on the the mounding around it.

And you can say, okay, well, the superintendent realizes that that in some respects takes some maintenance off of their off of their sort of routine maintenance expectations. and it it it delays or it spreads out the amount of time that they actually have to spend on those specific aspects. Like our most of our bunker edges, they only need periodic editing.

To make sure that some of the turf growth hasn't kind of gotten into a playability or an aesthetic or or a maintenance you know headache that people that you know that just is not conducive to to fun play. So from that standpoint, I think superintendents are really good at realizing: hey, this is a way for me to focus more energy on other priorities.

And pull back on those specific things like bunker edging, which was, you know, when when we were all growing up, you know, it was like that was that was the expectation. Why isn't somebody out there edging these bunkers today? Like, yikes. lucky us, right?

Matt Considine (30:15)
Yeah.

Dave Zinkand (30:16)
so

The Professor (30:15)
Hmm.

Dave Zinkand (30:17)
but and then the superintendents are pretty well educated, even the ones that, you know, because they they spent a lot of time looking at other golf courses and and and talking with each other.

And learning, and they they generally have an understanding that what we're going to do in those out-of-play areas, quote unquote, are going to contribute to that same effort, right? Pulling back on the need for maintenance in those areas so that they can focus more energy down the line of play, you know, T's, Fairway, and and Greens. And

And yet they also likely understand that those first few years after we do that work are going to be

because then they're going to be bringing those areas to maturity. And that's a that's a real tough ask. You know, it it's it's it's a lot of work and it's it's not what their maintenance crews are typically, you know, that's not where they focus their learning and capabilities. And so it's a real balance to to bring those areas to maturity. And we're always trying to take the the truly out-of-play areas and

And make them as natural.

And native as is truly possible. In other words, true native plants on those outskirts that again work towards our differentiating the product. And then as you transition back into the golf hole, finding ways to to limit the disruption of play with those with those lines and using using you know things like low-growing fescues that have short seed heads.

But look fantastic and and give that look that can translate out into the broader surrounds and and feed that feeling of rugged naturalism. Because we we believe that

You know, there's one of the aspects that actually two of the aspects of what draw people to the game are the fact that it's outdoors and the fact that it is, you know, played over varied terrain. Every golf course is different. It is not a you know, it is not a tennis or a basketball court.

The Professor (32:22)
Well, well said. why I'm a firm believer the grounds of our game, you know, are should be the things we privilege so much as the game evolves. Dave, I asked you about strategy and playability. I want to now ask you restoration versus renovation. You know, you have a huge portfolio where yeah, you've done your own projects, but also a huge renovation, restoration project. And those terms get thrown a around a whole whole lot. As a designer and someone that's been engaged in that work across a lot of projects.

When you go into a restoration slash renovation project, what does that look like? How do you approach it in relative to those termin that terminology distinction?

Dave Zinkand (32:59)
Well first we really look for transformative projects mostly where we feel like we're really going to, you know, make the maximum difference to what the membership enjoys if it's renovation work, you know, really being able to to say that

when you walk out there you you can often recognize the golf course as what you've always known it, but you know that something has been brought to it that elevates the the aura and the and and the interest of the of the playing of those grounds, right? So that

That's one way of saying that we don't always look for restoration work. sometimes really interesting restoration work finds us and we

and we say, ooh yeah, like we would love to be a part of that.

Because it is such an impressive original work that anything that we can do to bring it back to what it was and also enhance it based on the you know the capabilities and the opportunities that exist today that the original designer couldn't take advantage of, that we're happy to we're happy to go, you know, right down that route.

times we're just looking at things and saying, okay, if there is a lot of history there and it was a worthwhile golf course, we want to take instead of you know the the term that we use and and it's we're not exclusive to it, but the term that we use is is sympathetic renovation, right? It's not trying to be completely restorative. It's not trying to go in a direction where the members who have played there for you know like

Maybe you've got a second generation member, right, who grew up literally on that golf course. They probably don't want to not recognize it when you're done. And

The Professor (34:48)
Mm-hmm.

Dave Zinkand (34:48)
so if you can take the things that they love about the place and embellish them and take the things that they don't like about the place and say, we're gonna transform these and you won't remember what was there.

'Cause you didn't like it to begin with, then that's a pretty fun place to be, right? And it's and it's a pretty good way to to to gain favor with people who are wary about you coming into town. 'Cause we definitely, you know, we're just in that kind of line of work. We bring change and everyone knows all the sayings that have come out of the fact that humans are not

The Professor (35:20)
Yeah.

Dave Zinkand (35:21)
they're not gonna finish.

Matt Considine (35:22)
Mm-hmm.

The Professor (35:23)
Especially

country club members.

Matt Considine (35:25)
maybe, maybe. I I was

Dave Zinkand (35:27)
As good as anyone.

Matt Considine (35:29)
this is one of the topics I was most interested in talking to you about, Dave, because I've again playing some some of your body of work and and playing a lot of others that have undergone fantastic restorations when I'm in these conversations with but whether whether with members or fortunate enough to actually talk to the architect or designer themselves, you know, that there are these moments I have of

you're questioning. You're just questioning certain things, certain concepts. And it it always felt to me like a very simple answer was like, well, Ross's original plan was XYZ or or or Harry Colt wrote wrote, you know, plenty about that. But but I'm kinda thinking like, Well, I'm just saying what I just played, like like like w were the members playing here on Wednesday,

you know, or or so

I like the your answer and and it it's it's obvious you guys wanna have transformative projects. I mean, the the places you've been and what you've done. But I I just sympathetic restoration is a really interesting concept. But do you have a an example, I guess, would would be really cool of you you found the history very useful, but there was a hole that just needed to be better for the people that are playing it every day.

Dave Zinkand (36:40)
Yeah, so you know, if you look at the work that that we did at Old Elm with Curtis James, the superintendent, you know, Drew Rogers was involved there for a number of years early on, and and then work with Kevin Marion, the GM

We all got together and and essentially the the concept was okay, this place was built by Donald Ross and designed by Harry Cole

screens right and then you look at what they had what had been brought there over the years there were a couple of major bunker renovations that had happened long before you know many many years ago and they turned their back on a lot

did in Harry Colt's absence like not to forget the the the big the big aspect of of this is that Harry Colt never saw the golf course after he designed it and so Ross took a lot of liberty like wow a lot of liberty

Like if you look at the original drawings, you can say, okay, this is what Harry Colt intended, and this is what Ross did, and they are not the same thing. And given Ross's body of work, especially where he was very involved, you can understand how he had strong opinions, and he was generally correct about about a lot of good ways of handling things. And he didn't have that sounding board that like when I worked for Bill and Ben, you know, that I would have.

And you say, Well, this is what you said to do, this is what I came up with. And then they then they maybe say, Well, you remember how I said to do this? And let's let's let's give that another shot, right? he didn't he didn't have any sounding board from Colt. So then you go back and you say, Okay, well.

The greens at Old Elm are amazing. Many of them are like turtlebacks. You know, they they are not super friendly, but that gives so much of the interest and character to the golf course and the challenge. and then the bunkers are not even what Donald Ross built, and so

we went back and we looked at what Harry Colt intended and worked with that concept and and then took the torn edges and the and and the the really dramatic faces that he had intended and built those for the first time. So that was actually kind of a fun way to be fairly restorative in a way that that really had never even occurred.

What was the

The Professor (39:22)
Hm.

Dave Zinkand (39:23)
original intention?

The Professor (39:26)
Man, that just makes me want to play that place even more. It's I th the I remember when we played together, you brought up that place, and it's been on my mind, you know, eight years later, ever since.

It just seems like Yeah, it

Dave Zinkand (39:36)
It's a hell of a golf course. Yeah.

The Professor (39:38)
just seems like such a special and a special relationship that you had with the project there, working with the superintendent and again being sort of walk in step with them. is that

Matt Considine (39:46)
Not to

be a not to be a total homer, but also an Ohio native, Curtis. So just just throwing that out there. our greatest

Dave Zinkand (39:52)
Yeah, yeah. Curves champ.

Matt Considine (39:54)
export are the the Gulf mines of Ohio, apparently.

Dave Zinkand (40:00)
He's done an amazing job there and he's always fun to work with, yeah.

Matt Considine (40:04)
There's so many other directions I I wanted to go, Dave. I I guess because we're in Chicago talking about old Elm, I'm gonna stick with the Saddle and Cycle Club. This is opening sometime this summer. a very quiet club. You do have a history of working with quiet clubs. Honestly, I think most of our listeners might not even know this place exists. but I used to live literally right around the block from it in Lake Lakeview.

which is just north of downtown and you know right off Lakeshore Drive. But I remember getting excited whatever it was year or two ago when I saw your name attached to you know something just cool and different. And so if you just would maybe take a second talk about what it w the concept was I think the you know yardage only extends to a few hundred yards, right? If if if I remember correctly.

but it's it's it's a short course of short courses and there's so much I love about it. T tell us what how this project was for you, how it came to be and and what excites you the most about it.

Dave Zinkand (41:07)
Yeah, well the you know, the property that is actually contributed to golf is just about three acres. So, you know, it's a it's a very small footprint and the club, Salwin Cycle is a is a social club. They're actually the oldest club in Chicago and maybe the

I don't wanna get too specific about it, but they've got they've got an extraordinarily long history. And they you know they had some golfing grounds, they that had evolved over the course of time, and and sort of you know, had been had been

untended to in in certain respects, you know, kind of fallen by the wayside. and and and in some ways that was kind of understandable with the fact that the golf or that the membership is has so many different interests, you know, in in in being primarily a social club and and having a t a heavy tennis presence and and other things, but kind of being the backyard for a lot of people in downtown that don't have a backyard, given where they live

you know, it it provides a lot of opportunity and and yet they have a lot of a lot of golfing members and and those folks wanted to take advantage of the chance for that backyard to include their their ability to go out and either practice in a very serious manner, practice their short games, or to be able to take their kids out and play a few golf holes on a scale that the kids can really enjoy and and develop an interest in the game on.

And as well as just just go out with the wedge and and compete against each other, right? You know, any and all of the above. And so we looked at the at the footprint that we had and just tried to tried to maximize what you can gain out of it. And and in doing so, there's you know, there's a handful of greens out there that are oriented in a way where you could play it essentially in reverse or you go out there and kind of play.

play what we always called cross country golf, right, when we were kids. and just just enjoy it in in any any facet, but also then the opportunity to incorporate a corner

That offers a place for someone who wants to seriously work on their short game to kind of get lost and know that they've got the space to be able to work there. and as well as the ability to incorporate stations for camp, you know, in the summer for kids to be able to work through through different stations and have kind of a driving range tee, you know, a spot to be able to.

do bunker work from a putting course that is pretty pretty large and kind of rolls back towards the pool in the dining area so that you know it's an inviting place for for the non golfer to kind of take a step out onto the putting green and actually kind of learn about the game a little bit and and see some fun contours along the way.

and then we took a nod from from with the actual golf features, we took a nod from some of those great golf courses on the north side of Chicago. Not not necessarily trying to mimic anything in particular, but there's a punch bowl green and you know, there's kind of a Redan opportunity and and there's these different, you know, these different fun features out there that that

Take some history and try to present contours that allow somebody who is midweek and gearing up for a tournament at their home course, either west of town or north of town.

and and give them you know gives them something that they can that they can actually get some good practice on. So it's it's a place where, you know, you you can use it in almost any any capacity, depending on the time of the week, you know.

The Professor (44:51)
you've been involved in several of these unconventional golf projects, whether it whether it be saddle and cycle, ch I think Chechessy has the 12 hole course, band and preserve. And these are obviously becoming more they've become more and more popular over the last, I would say, decade. A two part question is this a trend you see continuing? And would you as a designer like to see it continue and continue to grow, giving people these alternative

avenues in the golf and al alternative turf experiences.

Dave Zinkand (45:20)
Yeah, for sure. I yeah, we're a referral based business to be certain. Like most and that's that that that goes into some of that, well, you know, there's these places that people don't hear a lot about that we work at, you know, sometimes and and then as a result of kind of working with those places, you know, and people continuing to not hear about sometimes you don't hear our name as much as

as you might, but given that we are referral based and people understand that, you know, probably one of my greatest strengths is to look at things in an unconventional, sort of out-of-the-box manner, it kind of sets us up well to be able to to take a piece of property and maximize what we can get out of it in a way that shuns convention.

and and leans into the running game, you know, kind of takes what I learned over in in Britain and Ireland and and sort of, you know, polish things up or or or completely you know create something new that is that is taking you know taking those concepts and bringing them to to the ground in a new light. I I think there's gonna be more of it. I think there's gonna be

you know, based on what we're seeing and what I'm talking with other folks about what they're doing, you know, there's certainly more in Hopper. And and I'd like to see the idea that there's some more middle ground type projects that are true

under three hour experiences that allow people to bridge, especially in larger communities where, you know, maybe you have your, you know, your potentially a super short opportunity to to practice you know and or and simply driving ranges as well that have short game areas, but but also they've got their, you know, their regulation size golf courses. Well if you've got something that's that strikes a middle ground

that allows somebody to take advantage of a smaller window. you know, I think that's a great way to to bring more people into the game in a practical way. Cause I think all three of us can probably think of a handful of times in the last month where we would have loved to have gotten out and played a little

a four hour round, you know, there's just no practical way to get there, get back, and play eighteen holes in the meantime.

Matt Considine (47:39)
And I I don't know about you guys, but I have always, as long as I can remember holding the golf club, found hitting chip shots in my backyard as one of the greatest forms of therapy. it you just get outside

The Professor (47:53)
yeah.

Matt Considine (47:53)
for a little bit. I'll do it, you know, as long as it's not raining, I'll even do it in the winter a little bit. But heck, it's huge reason. I ended up moving to Ohio. I was like, I need a yard. I just need a yard to do this again. when I was in Chicago, I

had multiple Chicago PD ask me, Well, hey, what are you doing? chipping, a little bit more than chipping. I think I had a seven iron in my hand one time at Lincoln Park. But may maybe that's my dream then of becoming a member of the Saddle and Cycle Club. but I I I think those trends are just so good for the game. I mean I think that might be a cliche for people to say but there's another one too and and more specifically because they're somewhat associated. I wanted to ask you about Dave.

And it's the reversible golf course. I believe even Saddle and Cycle was designed to to be reversible.

but there's one Medina Country Club where you transformed their practice facility into a nine-hole reversible golf course. And I I was curious, same question that the professor asked, do you see that trend continuing to have steam? And and would you would you like to see it? What are the the the merits of reversible, in your opinion?

for a club, for for the game that that many of us may not understand off the hop.

Dave Zinkand (49:04)
Yeah. So yeah, Medina in Ohio where we in northeast Ohio where we built the nine hole par thirty one reversible course. It's got two double greens. when you play it in one

One of those double greens becomes a single green, so that in my design eye, you know, I'm looking at it and saying, hey, you can truly pin every part of this green because we can play to the center and not worry about safety and in those aspects on those days. And then it reverses and you play to the center of the other green when when that green becomes a double green from the the opposite direction.

I yeah, I I I'd like to think that there will be a continuation of reversible courses. I don't think it's ever going to be, you know, some really large number. I do think that sort of the way that a place like Forest Dunes folds it into what they have as their second course and put a facility that's potentially going to have another golf course.

You know, I think that it's it allows them to kind of capitalize on what Mike Kaiser understood, which is and you know, and maybe there was somebody who said this before before it was associated with Kaiser and and Bannon Dunes, but you know, when you have one golf course, you have a golf course.

When you have two golf courses, you have a destination, right? And all of a sudden, with Tom's work there on the loop at Forest Dunes, you have a place that you say, Well, you know, I've also got to play it from the opposite direction. And that's either one more day or or or or at least one more round of golf that you're throwing into the

you know, into the trip and from a consumer standpoint, you know, if you're traveling to get somewhere, you want to be able to take advantage of, you know, being there. And so they they gain more variety and and another feature that they can spend time on. And obviously from a you know from an operation standpoint, the ability to keep that consumer there is is extraordinarily valuable. I I

I love it. I thought it was so much fun when I first looked at that part of the property. Because really, if you look at Medina Country Club, the 18-hole golf course is on ground that is perfect for 18-holes of regulation threes, fours, and fives. And the the original nine-hole facility that they had, which was their red nine at the time,

was you know essentially a short course on on ground that was really perfect for shorter holes. You know, it's got a little little bit more quick quick roll, not not necessarily big stuff, but it keeps moving, it runs, it turns, it rolls over pretty quickly over there on that east side of the property. And and then they consumed a portion of that red nine with a really, really

academy that houses the Jim Wise golf academy that has like a hundred and fifty kids out there in the summer. Like right now there's there's probably all sorts of you know uniforms, t sh you know collared shirts out there in in and team colors you know playing and having a great time

a as a result of having a great teaching pro there who loves to work with kids, but you know, but is is i you know, is taking advantage of some of that ground that the red nine was on, and so then we were left with a smaller portion. And and so it fed even more into coming up with what developed to be a PAR thirty one. And I

I looked at it and said, you know, it would at least be cool to to take a look at the ability to reverse this. And so as I came up with layouts for it and routed golf holes on it, you know, I just sort of said, okay, well, what if we what if we try and tease this particular routing into something that is more of a reversal of another routing that I

And they kind of started to come together in a way that seemed reasonable, but I was still really skeptical because you start on high ground, you go down through a floodplain, and then you come up back to high ground where on the other side of the property where the majority of the golf holes sit. And it just seemed like, you know, if you're going to reverse golf holes, there's a certain constraint that the terrain puts on you that you might.

But they they timed out in a way, so to speak, that allowed us to to make our either make transitions or make visibility work in a way that that lets us you know lets us go ahead and and have those reversals and and and from that point on I was just all about it. Now

Did I ever expect that that was gonna be the first thing that after the academy that that was gonna be the first thing that they said, let's go ahead and do this? No, no, no. I thought it was gonna be just like every other club that we work with that says, Okay, let's get let's get the eighteen holes done and and and then we'll come back and we'll talk about this neat idea that some of you like over here, but you know, we're it's gonna we're gonna put it on the back burner for now, but

Bill Cosgrove does not think that way, and their owner, he just said, you know, I love it. I love it. I love the idea of doing something that allows for our members to have a completely different experience than anywhere that they could get, you know, than they they could

have anywhere else in the area, but also just being able to enjoy and feed into that blend of you know family family.

club experience that they've got in the relatively small town of of Medina, but in a pretty good population area, right? So it it just it provides that variety and it provides what we've kind of, you know, again, this is not a term that that we've come up with. It's a

It's you know, the ladder, the ladder of of learning in in golf where you've gotta have something that's in between the putting green and the eighteen hole golf course where you know people can feel comfortable with. So so they've got you know, they've got a place where I could go out there with my family, and and any one of us can can enjoy it and and not feel intimidated. And so it's it was a lot of fun to build.

Matt Considine (55:25)
You know, pa paying attention to this stuff for almost a decade now. I I it didn't even occur to me how rare it is that you see the the the the cool new thing first. I I wasn't even aware of that with that project, but now that you say it, Dave, I think it's actually it really supports the idea of, you know, transformative projects and

And and I I I I'm living here. I'm a resident of this area. And I will tell you, people are talking about that in those circles of country club members, both their members excited about it, but but others b and I think it's because it's boy, that's a br that's something. You know, that's a decision. That is that is a so so I kinda kudos to Mr. Cog Cosgrove, their owner and and doing it. But I I've i i i that it that is so rare that you have that come first. You know, usually it is the big

standard piece you want to take care of, the eighteen hole regulation golf course. And then you see all this other stuff that that may or may not follow. I think I've seen more stuff not follow that they had intentions to. but yeah, that that that's maybe a lesson out there. There's something in that to to consider. You know, what what do we want to excite people about? 'Cause truly, I mean, yeah, you know me. I was asking you in F February. I need to get out there. I need to see that. That is just not something that is in this region.

Dave Zinkand (56:39)
Yeah, yeah. Well and I think, you know, the idea of well, to relate it with my experience over in Britain, over there you you have the club secretary, right, that rules the club and you know, essentially tells the the members who are his boss, his or her boss

That this is how this is how we're gonna go about things, and this is how we're gonna operate. And these are the decisions that we're gonna make very often, you know, and then there's a certain diplomacy that goes into it, but but whereas over here there tends to be you know a very much a committee-minded, you know, collective approach, and you know, the the the trap that you can fall into, of course, is the idea that, well, you know.

We got enough people wanting to do the safe thing here. Then that we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna circle back when when everything goes swimmingly and and then eventually we'll we'll start talking about doing something more dramatic. Well, you can cut off your opportunities pretty quick when when you're worried about doing the safe thing and impressing your members with how you couldn't have made a bad decision because you did the most conventional option available. And when you've got a guy like

who's making his own decisions and saying, this is what I like, this is what I've heard, this is where we're going, you know, it's a lot more exciting than than you might otherwise have to be restricted by.

The Professor (58:06)
Well, Dave, I'm a huge propa proponent of the unconventional approach. And I'm sure that is very hard as you're alluding to there for clubs to actually make that decision and trust you. And I'm also sure going and making a reversible course brings up some complex decisions that don't occur in a standard 18 hole course. What give us insights into that, something you need to think about when you're doing a reversible course that maybe is not on your mind when just laying out a standard 18, nine, or twelve hole golf.

Dave Zinkand (58:35)
Yeah. Well, kinda going back to two of the concepts that I talked about before, which were the the fact that the reversible at Medina plays through a floodplain. I I call it a floodplain. I mean there's not there you know, it's a it's a well contained creek and there's plenty of ground that's that's high and dry down there.

but you get the sense of what I'm talking about. You know, it's a common feature in that part of the country. You've got two big banks and you got you've got a big creek that meanders through it at the bottom, with plenty of of width that you know it's a fair way wide in terms of of space down there, but then you've got high ground on either side. And you know, the the ability to maneuver through there was a big concern about whether

you know whether that would even allow for reversible golf. And and one of the the things that sort of helped to make that happen was incorporating those double greens. We've got a double green kind of up at the on the high end near the start of the golf course that essentially forms the beginning and end of the layout. And then

Challenging surface that you can return, you know, start out or return on depending on on the reversal of the layout. So in some ways, we use those double greens to help us navigate that problem of getting down and up and out of.

floodplain. you know we also used some creative earthwork to be able to to make it more playable than it ever was as the as the course that was originally there had been. You know they had a pretty a pretty severe approach to a previous green and and in doing what we did we had

significant cut that allowed us to to make it feel even more natural honestly than than what it did previously but helped get people up and out of there with you know with

Visibility, you know, because a lot of you guys know a lot of what we're doing is is creating visible excitement, right? I mean

The Professor (1:00:47)
Mm, mm.

Dave Zinkand (1:00:47)
the drama of what you think you can and cannot do is much of what golf is.

Matt Considine (1:00:53)
That's well said. I I w one last reversible question for you, 'cause I I am fascinated by by this. and I've enjoyed my own study of the courses that were reversible. Obviously the old course being the most notable and they now the Lynx Trust leans into that with I think a couple times a year they open up the ballot for the ability to play it as it was intended, you know, the other way, both ways.

I and and and and you being s such a student, Dave, of of so many great courses, I'm curious. I'm gonna take the old course off the list. What is the greatest reversible course you've ever seen that that isn't the old course and and it can be maybe it's played as reversible today or maybe it hasn't been played reversible for for many, many years. What which one sticks out in your mind?

Dave Zinkand (1:01:43)
I I mean I think Tom Doak did a great job with the loot. You know, it's it's a fascinating opportunity to to play. It plays a little little harder in one direction than the other, which you would kind of expect and hope. I I I think some people maybe think that that that's a flaw just because I hear you know, I'll hear people say, Well, we played it in this direction, or we played it in that direction, and it either beat them up or it was a little easier than they expected, and it's like, hmm, all right.

The Professor (1:02:08)
Yeah.

Dave Zinkand (1:02:10)
same piece of land that we probably want to lean into variety once again, right? So to me that's an attribute of what he did. And and the fact that it plays firm and fast on that lean sandy ground with you know fine fescues is just divine. And so I I I've played it

a number of times in both directions and I I think, you know, he obviously has done all right for himself and and and showed off some pretty darn good work there and and I like the fact that it allows us to you know just

To be able to venture in that direction and have people understand that it is an opportunity that's available. And that helped, you know. I think I could have sold the reversible to Cosgrove without that, but it sure helps broadly to get acceptance of what we did there.

Matt Considine (1:03:02)
Yeah, yeah. And I I would concur on the loop. I I actually use it as a it's fairly high praise. I think it's plays more like a Lynx course than maybe anywhere I've played in the US. and

The Professor (1:03:14)
Mm-hmm.

Matt Considine (1:03:14)
that that

Dave Zinkand (1:03:14)
Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:03:15)
that's a tribute to their superintendent too, Falconer who's who was fantastic. But I I have ki don't know what the right word is, maybe converted some family members to

the merits of the ground game and and the the style of play there and and frankly just the novelty of it being reversible is what kind of brought in. And and then they actually started to, you know, enjoy running the sh the the ball up a little bit and enjoy putting the sixty degree away and and things of that nature. It's just a different really opens your mind to options, which is so cool to see.

Dave Zinkand (1:03:49)
Yeah, the ball can get away from you but mostly because you didn't prepare and maybe next time you could learn from that and and take a different approach. But I think it does a a great job, you know, that link style firm and fast running game style course does a great job of making for less for fewer impossible shots, you know, where you just feel like

If I was playing twice a week, every week, maybe I could hit this shot, but let's be honest, I might need to just lay back on this, right? So when you play those firm courses that that achieve a the running game, you get a little you get to be more aggressive, even though ironically you might be hitting less club and letting the ball roll.

Matt Considine (1:04:32)
Yeah. Well, Dave, I I have one last question for you myself and it's returning to your body of work. this could be a design question. This might be a business question. cause I you know, when reading through your bio and all the the projects you've been on, I'm thinking about my your own business in Dave's Inc. Design and I you know have a business, New Club where I operate within two very different

regions, the Southeast and the Midwest for me. And then I start thinking about your business and the regions you've worked in and operated, you know, you have Ohio, Rhode Island, the Arizona Desert, you have the Oregon Coast, the Forest California shoreline, the low country in South Carolina, and and many other places in between. So I downtown Chicago, which not many people can add to their resume. There that's a lot of different

regions, a lot of different places to to operate. I'm I'm curious, you know, is there a a habit that travels well everywhere in in your business? And is there one that gets you into trouble if you bring that with you to the wrong region?

Dave Zinkand (1:05:40)
Hmm.

I think, you know, pretty ear early on when

Happy to to have an arrangement between us where I could go out and do my own work so long as I made sure to to help them out when when they were expecting me to contribute and and you know and so vice versa, right? Like working with each other and and making sure that that we could make things work and and and I

Responsibilities for them. You know, Ben was was quick to point out in some of the references my ability to work in, I think he called it very varied locales, right? And he he was also very complimentary of my ability to jump on a dozer and and use the blade as he as he refers to it. And you know, I think

I think again, you know, just taking take having the willingness to look at things from an open-minded perspective and hearing clients' agendas and their you know their expectations and and and bringing that to produce an unconventional, you know, at least you know, granted, you're working

You're working with a platform that needs to facilitate the game of golf, right? So there are going to be certain conventions that you need to be careful to adhere to, and and yet trying to blend in maybe the unexpected is is a good approach to to keeping things fresh and maximizing what you get out of every project. And I think I think it's that that you've gotta know.

And and and that time that I worked for Bill and Ben it was so crucial, along with the ability to just spend so much, you know, that year abroad on the Drear Ward and and say, Okay, what do we have here that that we can get away with? But what should we also, you know, kind of kind of be cautious about and make sure that you know that we that we keep things in line enough.

Make sure that that this operation can maintain it and this operation knows that their membership is going to have fun on it. You know, that that's the big balance that you've got to strike. And so I think the if the Irishman was answering the question, he would have said balance.

Matt Considine (1:07:57)
Yeah, yeah.

It would have said a lot of things first and then ended with a dramatic balance. No, that that's

Dave Zinkand (1:08:01)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Matt Considine (1:08:04)
that's great. I I really wanted to ask you that question. I squeezed it in. We've taken more of your day than than we promised. So we are we are gonna let you let you go, Dave. But I did just wanna thank you for being with us. I'm very jealous of my co host here that he's already been able to play golf with you. I wanna make that happen if we can, 'cause I I'm just such a fan of your work. I I after this

this podcast. I'm sure many of our listeners are are going to be more curious as well. So thank you for being with us.

Dave Zinkand (1:08:29)
Thank you. I I greatly appreciate it, Matt. Professor, both of you enjoyed it and look forward to seeing you guys in the not too distant future.

Matt Considine (1:08:37)
And thank you to our loyal listeners for listening to the show. If you guys aren't yet a subscriber yet, you had a friend show send you this, subscribe, hit that button, why not? Listen to the professor and I banter for 10 minutes and then talk to really interesting people in the game of golf. we do it on a bi a white weekly, bi weekly basis. if you're willing to like, rate, review, or send us a comment, that is like super helpful to what we do here on the Bag Drop Podcast and our mission to make this game.

as meaningful as possible for those that love it. if you want to to connect with our guest, Dave Zinkin, we'll have his info in the show notes as well as the professor and I, as always, reach out anytime with thoughts, things you want me to bug the professor on. And thank you as well to our friends that are now helping us produce this podcast, Brad Malach the team at New Club, others who who have chipped in, the Bag Drop and New Club Golf Society are in partnership with Titleist

The number one gol ball and golf. And maybe the ne this these GTS, if if they're not won in twenty twenty six, they're on their way. Check out the all new GTS Metalwoods at a fitter near you. You can find them over at titleist.com. We'll catch you guys on the next one.