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Product Marketing Adventures is the only PMM show that goes beyond theory and into the real execution of product marketing. In each episode, experienced product marketers co-host two segments of the show: first a case study example of their work, followed by a messaging critique of companies we admire. Listeners enjoy a fun conversation packed with practical guidance to leverage in your product marketing career.
Hey, pmms, tell me if you've
been feeling this right now.
It feels like every brand is
trying to build a community.
Am I right?
My take on this is that in
a world that's overflowing
with AI generated content
and that perfectly polished
noise, people are starting
to crave something different.
Good old fashioned
human connection.
Surprise, surprise, because
when customers feel like they
belong, not just transacting,
they don't just use your
product, they start to trust
you, they advocate for you.
Your brand becomes a
place, not just a vendor.
So what actually
creates that feeling?
Why do some communities make
people feel seen, heard, and
deeply connected while others
feel like empty slack groups
or glorified mailing lists?
And why are smaller, more
intentional communities
suddenly outperforming
massive audiences?
Today we are unpacking
one of the most powerful
growth strategies in
modern marketing community.
What it really is, why it
matters now more than ever,
and how the right kind of
community can transform a
brand from something people
buy into something or
some place they belong to.
And to help us unpack this,
I am thrilled to welcome
Cara Gravett to the show.
Cara is a dynamic product
marketing leader who
helped shape the world's
largest travel platform
to drive growth through
complex B2B ecosystems.
She spent many years at
Expedia as a senior leader
in product marketing, working
at the intersection of
product partners and revenue.
Today she advises, companies
on how to elevate product
marketing from tactical
function to a true strategic
driver of business impact.
She's also the creator of
between launches a community
of product marketers who
meet monthly to learn from
one another, share real
world experiences, and
grow their craft together.
Which makes her especially
well qualified for, uh,
today's topic on community.
And on top of that, Cara has
been recognized by the Product
Marketing Alliance as a top
product marketing consultant,
and she's known for bringing
both deep customer empathy
and strong business ownership
to everything she touches.
Welcome to the show, Cara.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Hello everybody.
I'm a long time listener,
first time guest, so very,
very excited to be here.
Yay.
Uh, likewise.
Okay, wanna jump right in
because this topic is so
timely and so interesting.
So, before we get into
the case study though,
I wanna start with maybe
a little something a
little more foundational.
So the word community
gets thrown around
a lot in marketing.
So how do you define
community when it comes
to customers or partners?
Like what makes something
a true community versus
just an audience?
I think the way we define
community is shifting.
it used to be that we think
big audiences, you know, the
bigger, the better, especially
on social, you know, how can
we get this bigger audience?
But now we're seeing a shift
towards much more relevance.
Members wanna feel
like they belong.
I think you mentioned
in your intro, they
really wanna feel it.
So think about the
fitness industry.
Um, you know, I joined a gym
15, 20 years ago, and it was
a gym that had everything
I would go and work out.
I would leave.
There didn't really
feel like there was
a sense of community.
Fast forward to today,
there's so many more options.
I personally attend bar
three, which is a mix of.
Pilates, ballet and Yoga.
and it specializes, in women
and women of a similar age
and demographic of myself.
So it makes it
really feel personal.
It's a very
personal experience.
I actually get a
chance to connect with
the, the teachers.
I connect with the people,
and I've actually made
some really good friends.
So I think that's
the difference.
The biggest difference
is it's not necessarily
just messaging out the
difference in community
is now is like having a
shared purpose, for them to
interact with each other.
I love that shared purpose.
Plus you look around and
you're like, these people.
Are just like me.
You know, not May, maybe not
necessarily like look like
you quote unquote, because
obviously many communities
can be online, so you may
not actually see them.
But I'm thinking even to like
Reddit communities, right?
I have no idea what, who
those people are, what
they look like, other than
just some, you know, silly
handle that they created.
But again, back to your
point of like shared purpose.
and, and making it personal.
and I think the, the
belonging piece is especially
important here, right?
So now let's ground that
definition, in taking us
back to your time at Expedia.
So how did this
recording when we were.
You know, doing our prep call
for this, we talked a lot
about your time at Expedia
and Expedia's, travel Agent
affiliate program or tap.
So explain to us now how
community shows up wrapped
around in that context.
Um, and tell us a little
bit more about who are
these advisors and you
know, what was going on.
Yeah, absolutely.
So TAP is Expedia's
B2B platform designed
for travel advisors.
Um, travel advisors are
also known as travel agents,
if you didn't know that.
Um, they're mostly independent
business owners, so there are
some consortiums and the like.
Um, but they're mostly,
individual business owners.
They're booking
travel for a client.
We had about 200,000
of them globally.
So we had reach, but they
weren't necessarily using
our platform exclusively.
Um, they had multiple
tools on their desktop
and the needs of the day.
And the client really, that's
what drove them to use a
particular tool over another.
And so community showed up
really differently here.
We weren't just supporting the
end user, we were supporting
the business owners in
helping to make that decision.
You know, where to book.
How to learn and
really who to trust.
Got it.
Okay.
So the trust factor, and
again, I'm thinking back to
like shared purpose, right?
So with that context now.
digging a little deeper into
the case study, I guess,
walk us through the time
when you were trying to
increase engagement now, and
I think it, what you were
saying before in our prep
call was like around like,
share of wallet, right?
Like when you were trying
to build some of that share
of wallet, from travel
advisors, uh, leveraging
this, the tap I'm calling it.
Um, what was happening and
how did you decide what to do?
Yeah.
Great question.
So we were in a place, as I
mentioned before, that uh,
travel advisors had many tools
to be able to select form.
Um, we had the reach, but
we didn't necessarily have,
uh, we weren't necessarily
their go-to platform.
And so the goal was to
increase share of wallet.
Essentially what that means is
the usage of the platform, and
in turn revenue, and then also
to close some knowledge gaps.
We actually had a lot
of different tools and
features that I don't
think the travel advisors
were aware of at the time.
So we were really, those were
kind of our two goals is share
wallet and knowledge gaps.
We also had the unique
challenge that they were so
globally dispersed, right?
So we couldn't necessarily
just, do something small.
We wanted to do something
that was personal, but
also something that was
scalable so we could educate
them and connect them.
So we decided to build some
smaller niche communities.
Um, we kind of looked
at our audience.
Um, we did some surveys
really to find out, you
know, what their niches were
and organized some smaller
groups based on their shared
challenges and then interests.
And then we layered on
a few different channels
to bring them together
and then provide content.
So we did targeted webinars.
We created more relevant
content based on the topics
that they wanted to discuss.
We brought in.
Our sales team.
So they were much more
connected to, not only
understanding, you know,
what they wanted, but why,
you know, why did they want
these particular things.
Um, we did content in terms
of sharing out advisor trends
and insights, really kind
of what are the booking
trends so we could help
them with their business,
um, really understanding
how to grow that.
We did create a formal
LMS for more structured
learning, um, which was
very, well, uh, received
And real quick, just for
listeners slash myself who
may not know, what is LMS?
Oh, good call.
It is a learning
management system, so we
create, think of it as like
educational, an educational
tool where you can put
up, you know, it's kind
of a knowledge bank of
learning, but
Okay.
Makes perfect sense.
Especially as you were
talking about the like
content that you were
creating and providing.
Got it.
Okay.
yes, good call.
yes.
And so that was well
received because it really
opened up their eyes to.
Services and products
that we had that they just
weren't really aware of.
Not that the product was
very complex, but you
know, they're, they're in
their, their day to day.
We also brought some of
the members into some
of our internal events.
We had some big Expedia
partnership events, which we
had never brought the travel
advisors to, um, before.
And so we started to bring
them into those as well.
And the combination of
those is really where
things started to click,
because not only were.
Interested in what
we had to say.
It became much
more peer driven.
advisors were
helping each other.
They were sharing best
practices and tips, which
really that's what made
the community valuable.
And from there we saw
an increase in overall
satisfaction, a better
product understanding.
Um, we did see a increase
of share of wallet.
And I think the other
benefit that we.
Hadn't necessarily had a
goal of is we also better
underst store our product
gaps were, which also in turn
to help the share of wallet
'cause we could fill those
gaps, easier by, by being
surfaced, um, much quicker.
What I am seeing as just
as you're describing the,
um, both the different
strategies and tax tactics
that you used, is that
there's an organic evolution
here that started with you.
Being super customer centric,
trying to fill the knowledge
gaps, creating the content.
And you had this like, I
guess like a feedback loop of,
you know, like you mentioned
like trends and insights that
were coming from the people
that you were speaking to.
And then you're
feeding it back.
And then the more that you
brought your customers in.
And then I, I guess it led
to, I think you said like
event events or, you know.
Customer conferences
or some, something is,
is the gist that I got.
And then you, you
actually got to see
them talk to each other.
It seems like it just
snowballed from there in terms
of, ah, there's something
even bigger that we can unlock
here and tap into by making
this conversation not just a,
an a and B conversation, but
an A, b, and C conversation.
which gets really interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say it
definitely moved from.
A, we're just going to
give you content to, uh,
you are going to help
us create this content.
And then that moved into,
you're gonna help us create
this content, but then you're
also gonna share it with the
other people in your network.
And it just really became
this, forum and not really
a forum, but you know, a
community of, of learnings and
it, and, and it really helped
us, To get the knowledge
out there, on why and how
they should use the product.
Yeah, and that's tapping into
something that I think is
so authentically human like
innately, humans have a bit
of altruistic tendencies.
We all do to some,
some more than others.
We want to be helpful
to other people.
We also like to be
seen as experts.
We like to, you know, it gives
us a feeling of satisfaction,
fulfillment, when it feels
like not only are we helping
someone else, but we're
using our expertise to do so.
So it's, I It feels like
you've tapped into that
with this community.
yeah, and I think you want to
hear from like-minded people.
You know, I think there's
so many companies that have
capitalized on this, right?
You think of things like
Angie's List or you even think
of things like TripAdvisor
and the the, you know, I
think reviews is a big.
Piece of this as well.
That's kind of that
user generated content.
But when you can get it
from people that you trust,
you know, and those are
the people that are usually
in your, I don't wanna say
like-minded, but usually in
that area where you know,
you know they're an expert.
You wanna be able
to talk to that.
Exactly.
Exactly.
I think that's why
that works so well.
in very similar to what
you created at Expedia
with this tap group, right?
These like strategic travel
advisors, is that you
found these individuals
who were those experts
who were trusted, and
they became a voice of
the product basically,
Yeah.
which is so
And I mean, they became
very good advocates.
It was great.
And then they got something
out of it too, right?
Like it's, it's all part
of like, um, advancing
their own expertise
and leadership as well.
okay, so now what I wanna
do is take your case study.
And turn it into a playbook.
So let's say that, I'm a
product marketer with a,
obviously with a product,
but um, with a goal of trying
to engage my customers and
create community around them,
and you're my coach for this.
You're gonna coach me
through this exercise.
So what is step one?
What's the first thing
that I should do?
Um, assume I'm starting
from nothing, but I
do have customers.
Who are, you know,
love the product.
I think the first step is
what is your intention, right?
What are you trying to solve?
What is the business
goal that it is tied to?
Really start with that
because a community that's
built around education
or a product adoption or
advocacy are gonna all look
a little bit different,
right?
okay.
Mm-hmm.
Yep.
And so you wanna figure
out like, what's that?
What's that core goal that
you wanna think about?
Um, for example, when I was
working at Zen Planner, which
is one of the clients that
I've consulted with, they're a
fitness and wellness company.
We created a community
of fitness owners that
use our marketing, uh,
features that we have.
We invited them in to talk
about growth and marketing
strategy and we did some,
you know, feature plugs
and, and really helped
them kind of overcome any
challenges with a product.
But the thing that worked
really well there is owners
started learning from other
owners in terms of what
they're doing in terms of
marketing and strategy.
And so, you know, an
owner in Minneapolis could
learn from an owner in
Los Angeles and they could
say, here's what I'm doing
to drive more signups.
And it felt.
Coming, coming back to the
same tap example, it's,
there's that trust there.
It felt like you're
getting it from experts.
And, and so that
worked really well.
And I think that's where
sometimes teams can go
wrong, is they start
with the community.
Let's build a community and
not necessarily with what are
our goals for the community.
So that's, that's
my first step.
Get
they jump.
They jump right in start
building, which, you
know, gotta give them
props for eagerness.
Yes.
Yeah.
And you know, we do that in
the marketing world, right?
We wanna move fast.
And so it's not, not a matter
of moving fast, it's just
a matter of, moving fast
in the right direction.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And being clear on what we're
doing this for, because as
you're building the community
and building out whether
it's incentives or you know,
the methods by which you
want the community to engage
with one another, all of
that can be, can reinforce
whatever your goal is.
Um, so that makes
a lot of sense.
Okay, so assume I am
building the community.
I've got my primary goal, what
I'm trying to do with this
community, what comes next?
Your.
Who do you want to
be in your community?
Like who exactly is it for?
What problem are
they trying to solve?
The more specific here you
can get, is the better.
Um, I like to say, you know,
niche drives relevance and
relevance drives engagement.
So when people feel like,
Hey, this is for me, there's
so much more willing to show
up and participate, and so.
Start small and then,
and build from there.
Okay, so that might be a
little counterintuitive.
But to actually start really
niche, you could actually see
a bit more traction with that.
Is that what you're
kind of saying from
I think it, I, yes.
I think that it gets into,
when you start small, you
have a better understanding
of what the community needs,
and then you can build
it out from, from there.
Mm mm Okay.
So instead of all customers,
it's like, no, no, no, no.
This very specific
segment of customers.
Maybe start with, with that
first and then slowly start to
build and expand from there.
Yeah, there's a few
different studies on this.
Um, I think there's
an HBR study and some
others that are, that
really talk more about.
These niche markets.
I think if you're just trying
to get marketing messages
out, you know, we're just
trying to get things out.
You know, a broader
community is fine.
I still think as a product
marketer, you need to be able
to speak to your ICP, in a
way that's not too broad.
You know, they need to know
that you understand them.
But I think when you're
building a community that's
more about some other type of
business goal, really starting
small is, the way to go.
Got it.
Okay.
So as soon as you figure
out who it's for, how
do you decide where the
community should live?
It's a good question.
Um, you definitely need to
think of the right channel,
and this comes down to the
behavior of your audience.
you wanna understand where
they're already spending
their time, where are
they already engaging?
It could be webinars,
forums, messaging
apps, even in person.
You know, we did that at
Expedia, as I mentioned.
but the goal is to
reduce friction.
You wanna meet them where
they already are, not try
to get them to go elsewhere.
Okay.
And then quick
follow up to that.
I hope this doesn't go off
in too big of a tangent, but
when you're doing some of
that research of figuring
out where they already
are, hopefully you have it
already, but what if you
don't have that already?
What's a good way to
run some experiments?
Or where can I do the
research to figure out?
Where they engage.
Is it?
okay.
I don't wanna feed you.
You tell me.
No, no, no.
Yeah, I, I mean, I think
it, I think it varies.
Um, and that's why
you, you gotta think of
the customer behavior.
Uh, you know, it could be
something as easy, um, as,
you know, doing some desk
research and really finding
out like, you know, the.
Travel advisors, for example,
you know, they attend
these particular events
and when they're at those
events, we wanna pull them
into some private events.
It could be, you know, you
start there, it could be
selecting an audience and
then interview, or, sorry,
not necessarily interviewing,
but surveying them.
Like where do you engage?
Right?
And then you can get some
of that, um, information up
front and then, you know,
you kind of iterate on that.
Yeah.
You could test a little bit.
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay, so assume that I found
my place, I did my research
and I found my place where my
community is going to live.
So what do I do next?
I like to treat the
community like a product.
So Pilot, you know,
we've talked about this a
little bit, but I'll just
do a bit bit of recap.
Um, you know, pilot with
a smaller group first so
you can really understand
what the learnings are.
You can test different
formats, different
cadences, and.
And really find out what
drives engagement, and then
you can iterate from there.
I think the key thing is,
is like, what are they
actually doing versus
having in your head what
you expected them to do.
'cause sometimes
those two things are
not always the same.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
And you made me think
of something else too,
just as you were talking.
So at the very beginning
you told me that the first,
the first step should be
to make sure that I have
an intention and a goal
with what I'm trying to
do with the community.
Yeah.
I think, and maybe this comes
out in in the pilot or maybe
it comes out in some of the
research that that you do,
but you also have to make
sure that your goal with
the community isn't like an
indirect conflict with what
your community members' goals
are in joining the community.
Because it has to somewhat,
I'm guessing this is a, a
hypothesis, but I'm guessing
it has to somewhat align.
Like if I'm thinking back
to your Expedia example,
the community members were
trying to learn, and your
goal was to educate, right?
So not only were you educating
them, but then they were
educating each other because
their goal was to learn.
So I'm thinking in like
a similar situation like.
We should probably
uncover some of that,
Yeah,
sure that you know,
their goals are, it
resonates, right?
You're so right.
I mean, those two things
have to be aligned.
What I will say though is
at Expedia, our goal in
a nutshell, it's really
to expand share of wallet
Yeah, I was gonna say
that wasn't necessarily
the goal for advisors.
I mean, the goal for advisors,
I mean, they want more
revenue from their clients
and they wanna use a tool
that is the most efficient.
But getting, sending us
more share of wallet is
definitely not theirs.
So that's why we felt that one
way to get, you know, this is
based on data and kind of some
voice of, uh, customer stuff.
Um, but we felt that a
better way to get that
share of wallet was
based on education and
sharing.
And so that's how we,
that's how we tied our
business goal to what the
goals of the audience are.
'cause they have
to be the same.
I mean, you can have some
kind of secondary pieces,
but If you're talking about
something over here and they
don't care about it at all,
that's, that's not gonna work.
Yes, yes.
So there's like the, there's
the business goal of why
we're doing this, and then
there's like the motivations
behind why should I join?
That's kind of a level,
A level deeper than.
Everyone's honestly, genuinely
in the most, with, with the
most integrity possible.
Everyone's out here just
trying to make a buck, right?
So, but a cl a level deeper
than that, um, when we're
igniting our passions
and using our talents and
skills, like what is that
motivating factor that in
more intrinsic motivating
factor, It sounds like you
were able to kind of uncover
and, and tap into that.
So now moving on to, you
know, I'm ready to launch
my community, but how do I
measure to make sure that
it's actually working?
It's a good question.
So you wanna look
at participation.
Um, are people showing up?
Are they engaging?
I.
Not only participation,
because sometimes people
show up and you know, maybe
they're not really engaging.
So I also think about the
quality of the engagement.
You know, what are the
conversations like, what
are the themes that are
coming out of those?
For example, when I first
launched between launches,
which I think sounds so funny,
launch between launches, but I
ran a survey, to the audience
to find out more about what
they cared about because
I had thi, I had ideas.
I had been kind of thinking
about this idea for a long
time when I was in-house
because, as a leader, you
know, oftentimes you get it
to a senior leader position
in a, in an organization
and you're maybe one of two.
And so it's really nice to
have an audience that you
can go bounce ideas off of.
and so I had some ideas
in my head in terms of.
Topics I thought would
be really interesting,
but I wanted to make sure
my audience would think
those are interesting too.
So I started out with, you
know, a couple of things
that they could just select
and then I, uh, you know,
opened it up and then I
got additional information.
AI rated really high on that
list, as you know, it's,
it's the buzz word in the
industry at the moment.
and so, that allowed me to.
Understand the topics
so I can select
speakers moving forward.
you know, topics the audience
really wanted to dig into.
I mean, at the end of the
day when you're thinking
community, if members
feel that the topics are
relevant, that's when
they'll keep coming back.
Got it.
Yes.
It's almost a, and I
think you mentioned this
at the beginning, right?
You talked about
treating community like
it's a product and.
You're in looking at the,
what you're suggesting
of how to measure and
then maintain engagement.
You're doing a lot
of that, like product
adoption and product usage,
Yeah.
know, you know, measurements.
Uh, so that makes
a lot of sense.
okay.
So I also love that in your
story, the community became.
Self-reinforcing once these
advisors started actually
helping each other out.
So talk a little more, a
little bit more about that
and why it's important.
I think that's when you really
know that it's working or not.
peer-to-peer support for
me is, is the unlock.
Um, one thing, it, it
reduces the dependency
on the organization to
always, you know, create
every interaction.
I think we talked about
this earlier is it builds
a lot more trust and cred
credibility because it's
really, you know, the
experts and the members
that you see as peers.
Um, getting that
kind of flywheel of
conversation going.
And so, um, so yeah, I
think that that's one of
the biggest unlocks is when
you can get them talking
with each other and sharing.
I love it.
And that'll just continue
to give you even more
ideas of how to further
engage and, you know,
keep the adoption growing.
Um, you mentioned, you
mentioned AI earlier
that you had fielded,
um, you did a little bit
of research, surveyed
the perspective members,
and AI was a hot topic.
So on the subject of ai,
'cause we can't have.
A podcast without talking
about AI these days.
So where does AI fit into a
community driven strategy?
I think AI can play, a really
helpful role in terms of
enabling, being an enabler.
I think this is the way
many pmms are using AI in
general, but it's great
for things like summarizing
feedback or identifying
patterns across conversations,
or even helping with the
communication and content.
But the core thing to
community is human connection.
So we just can't lose that.
You know, we don't wanna
allow, we don't want
AI to replace that.
That's what really makes
it the company or company
community valuable.
another benefit of
AI and communities is
the insights that come
out of the community.
They can become a content
strategy on their own,
shaping how, um, the company
shows up in LLMs and making.
It easier for your
prospects to find you.
That's, that's a key piece
that, I mean, think the more
that we can get out, the more
testimonials, the more case
studies, the more information
we can get outta those groups.
We can, you know, feed them
into the LLMs and make us
much more discoverable.
You just mentioned what
I think is going to
be like a bombshell of
eagerness.
Now every company's gonna
want a community with like wit
what we can show up in LLMs.
What did she say?
Like,
I am sure there's another
session on how to do
that, but, but, but
that's, that's how I've
been thinking about it.
Yeah.
No, and I think you're
absolutely right because
in this world, like
everything sounds, it's a
little like too polished.
Everything sounds a
little too perfect.
And I think, you
know, the suss meter
is like, who is that?
Can I trust this?
Like, did you
actually do this?
What is this?
So it's hard to.
Trust what's in front of
you, with all this AI stuff.
And I, I love that you,
re-articulated that human
connection is the whole
point of all of this.
So while AI can kind of
help you get going, maybe
do some standard you.
A few sections of the
launch activities, or as
you pointed out, do some
of the analysis of, you
know, customer engagement.
Do not have AI engage.
Don't do it.
Don't do it.
Yeah.
In fact, even in in
between launches, I, I
don't record the calls and
I do that for a purpose.
'cause I want people to feel
comfortable sharing examples
of what's going on, you know?
And sometimes I think, oh,
I really wish I did at least
transcribe it, so then I
could like automatically
like pull up the themes.
But I'm here with my pen
and paper writing down notes
the old traditional way,
Yeah.
Good old fashioned.
Yes.
I love it.
Okay, so when I launch
my community, I guess,
what should that launch
actually look like?
I know you mentioned pilots,
which is very helpful.
but where do they fit into
the picture when it comes
to like a broader launch?
Yeah, I think it's
a good question.
Um, I think this is sometimes
where things can go awry.
You know, some teams try
to go too big too fast,
so I think of a pilot.
As a launch, maybe it's not
as big as a tier one launch,
you know, if you think of your
product marketing tiering,
but it's really like, you
know, get it out there.
Start small, focused, you
know, we talked about, you
know, around that specific
problem or kind of goal
really to give them a
clear reason to show up.
Then treat it like a product.
So test and learn.
See what drives engagement,
you know, where, um,
it's best to show up.
And then when you start seeing
people kind of showing up
consistently and contributing,
that's when you expand.
And the nice thing about
that is oftentimes, you get,
your early adopters, you
know, oftentimes those people
that first join that group
can become your champions.
And then they can help
you, help you grow.
Yeah.
My big takeaway in what you
just said is that to, and this
goes back to like tracking
the metrics and success,
is to track for consistency
in usage.
When you're seeing a good
consistency, that's kind of an
indication that you're ready
for the next level of scale.
so I really love that.
Okay.
Last topic or last question
for you on this topic, Cara.
what's one piece of advice
that you have for a product
marketer who is on the path
to creating a community
around their product?
Start with the problem.
You know, make sure
that you're focused on
what that problem is.
You know, we mentioned
earlier, sometimes the company
and the audience can have kind
of different problems, like
just make sure that those are.
You can have secondary
business goals out of that,
but make sure that those are
the same, so you can build
that, um, relevance and,
and, and don't think you
have to go too big, too fast.
I think, you know, all
audience, I mean, it really
depends on your audience
and what your goals are.
Um, you know, if you, you have
200,000 travel advisors, you
know, you might be able to go
bigger than if you're starting
something like my, my between
launches community, right?
Like our goal is
to have these.
Conversations, but, you
know, test and learn and,
and go big when you've
got the right, engagement.
Yeah.
Okay.
I love that.
Start with the problem.
okay.
Well this was so insightful
and like I said, so
timely for everything that
I'm seeing and I think.
Product marketers are
kind of itching to get
at more connection with
their customers, especially
given how everybody's
bombarded with ai.
So there are so much to learn
here from you, Kara, in your
case study about community
and just you've just repeated,
you know, success with that.
So thank you again
for sharing with us.
Thank you.
All right.
Okay, so now it's time for
the next segment of the show.
So this is the
messaging critique.
This is where, uh, we get
to be product marketing
experts and analyze
real world marketing.
And the fun part is, as
my guest Cara, you get
to choose the company
that, that we look at.
So I'm gonna start
with some ground rules.
You wanna try to pick a
company that is one that
you either are the target
audience or you know the
target audience really well.
It wouldn't be fair for me to
analyze the messaging of like
a food and beverage company
because I have no idea.
Like I'm not, I know, I
know nothing about that.
Um, so once you reveal
the company, then you
are gonna tell me.
A little bit about what's
popping out at you in terms
of what's working really well
with the messaging, and then
what you wish the PMM would've
considered differently.
And then we'll iterate and
brainstorm a bit on how
the PMM could take it to
the next level, whether
that's a creative campaign
content, or just make their
messaging super punchy.
Sounds good.
All right, so reveal.
What is the company will
we will look at today?
So I have selected
Maven Clinic.
I'm not sure if you're
familiar with them,
but I'm very passionate
about what they do.
Um, I wouldn't say I am their
direct audience, but kind of
their downstream audience.
Okay, I'm gonna Google
them really quickly.
So it's Maven, Maven Clinic.
Is it just, uh,
maven clinic.com.
Yes.
Is this so on their website,
at least how they present
themselves to the world
looks like evidence-based
women's and family healthcare.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay, great.
So for those of you who wanna
follow along, um, do you
wanna tell us a little bit
more about like what they do?
Obviously they're a healthcare
clinic of some kind.
Yeah.
There are digital
health clear, ugh.
Can't say healthcare today.
Uh, they're a digital
healthcare platform that
are focused on women's
and family health.
Um, it's offered through
an employer benefit.
And so I would say the direct
ICP is is more tied to kind
of the HR benefits leader,
um, versus the employee,
but they still do market
to the employees as well.
interesting.
Okay.
So, um, target customer then
is more of the HR benefits of,
you know, good size, medium
to enterprise sized employer.
Um, so what is popping out
at you about the messaging?
What's working really well?
I think they do a really
good job of balancing
emotional storytelling
with business impact.
I think, you know, there's
a lot of women's topics
around, um, fertility,
um, around, um, uh.
Menopause or
perimenopause or anxiety.
And it's, it's, it's family
health and women's health.
Uh, but they do a
really good job of that
storytelling in terms of
how they do improve a lot
of clinical, um, challenges,
um, as I would say.
And, and then they also talk
about the business impact
to the hr, uh, leader.
Got it.
Okay.
So I'm on their website right
now and I'm just trying to
like, dig through just to get
a, a stronger sense of like
what that actually looks like.
as I'm scrolling through
their website, is there
something like big that kind
of points to that, you know,
storytelling that they do?
I mean, I've seen a lot
of, like women and family
like, and I, I think that
repetition, you know, kind
of works really well for.
Who they're trying
to make this for.
and then they have kind
of this like tile of, um,
it looks like topics that
I think you mentioned.
Is that, is that kind
of what you were getting
at with how they're
the different topics and
how they kind of like
build on the storytelling?
Yeah, I think it's more in,
um, kind of the why Maven.
Um, and if you look at, you
know, I probably wouldn't
be on their, uh, their
website and looked at a few
different things, but, um,
you know, if you look at
some of the programs that
they have, it really goes
into the fertility and
family, family building.
Um, it it, and so it does
speak a little bit more
to the challenges that
these audiences face.
Um.
I think that's where this
comes together more so
Got it.
Yes.
Okay.
So they are, while they are
speaking to kind of like
the hr, representative,
they're still able to be
very convincing around.
Why this is so meaningful
to their employers?
Or sorry, employees.
Um, 'cause I'm even reading
just on the like, fertility
and family building page.
It says, guiding members
on sh on the shortest, most
affordable path to a healthy
baby while maxi maximizing
your benefits dollars.
That's amazing.
Yeah.
And so they speak to, they,
they speak to both of those,
which I think is um, uh,
really, really great 'cause
they're speaking to what
the employee wants to hear,
you know, in terms of.
What challenges or health,
um, options they might
be struggling with.
Um, but then they also
kind of speak to that,
um, ICP of the hr.
Totally, and those are two
very different audiences.
To speak to and there and,
and this topic, well, some
of these topics anyway, some
of them are very sensitive.
So being able to do that in
a way that isn't a turnoff,
um, is definitely a win.
Um,
so yeah, I'm definitely
liking the storytelling here.
Okay.
And tell me something
you wish the PMM would've
considered differently.
This is gonna sound a
little contradictory to
what I just said, but I
think that, you know, as
I mentioned, I think they
do a good job of balancing
the emotional storytelling
with the business outcomes.
I think where they can get.
Um, where they can uplevel
and enhance is, is tailoring
it more to a direct ICP.
So to, to your point, you
know, you mentioned them on
the page, they're talking to
both the employee and they're
talking to the HR leader, and
I think that's good, but it
feels like a lot, at one time.
And it, I think it
dilutes the message if
you're coming in just as
an
Ah,
Um, and so.
probably the bulk of
what they're getting.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so I think that, I
mean, they do have a tab
for employers where I think
they do this a bit better,
but I feel like if that
is your true ICP, um, then
that should be front and
center on your homepage on
kind of your solutions page.
And so I think that's
where they can do better.
I mean, they have a lot
of the content already.
It's just maybe structuring
it in a way that is,
is a bit different.
Yeah, well it sounds like
maybe they need to, uh,
rebuild their message
house so that, so that
that top level messaging
is more up for the ICP.
Um, and then they can
sprinkle in, they can start to
introduce the more individual
employee messaging down
at the lower tiers of the,
Yeah.
Or have it, you
know, different tabs.
I mean, they do have the
employer tabs, so I think
they're, they're going for it.
But I think that, and
I don't, I've never
worked for this company.
Um, you know, I don't, I
don't have that add that
detail, but I, I feel like.
From an external perspective,
their core ICP is the HR
leader, so I would have
everything geared toward
that and then have a small
inlay or tab or whatnot
for the the employees.
So kind of
Yeah.
script around a little bit?
Exactly.
Rather than straddling the
two, just pick one and go for
it.
Okay.
Um, what would you do to
take this to the next level?
Exactly that.
I would kind of change that
structure a little bit, really
focus on the ICPI, um, uh,
going through the website.
You know, this might not be
the technical health, um,
terms, but you know, you have
business outcomes and then
you have, uh, what I call
kind of clinical outcomes.
You know, the clinical
outcomes are like,
you know, we increase
fertility by X percent,
or those sorts of things.
How do you ensure you're
talking to your ICP
about the item that
they care about most?
Right.
And some of those, maybe some
clinical ties into retention.
you know, I can think of
when I was at Expedia, we
had a women in the workplace
goal and you know, so I
could see things around
fertility, like kind of
being a secondary signal.
Um, but I think it's really
getting clear in terms of.
When I, another story when
I was at, um, so I was
in sales before I went
into product marketing.
And one of the reasons I went
into product marketing is when
I was leading a sales team,
they would take what marketing
gave them and it might have
six things on it, right?
And, um, the great sales
people would take that
six things that marketing
had, and they would narrow
it down to three to talk
to their clients about.
The three things
that they knew their
clients cared about.
And I would say kind of the
mediocre kind of salespeople
would just go and kind
of read off the slide.
And when I was in
those meetings, I would
just see people's eyes
glaze over, right?
And so sometimes I think
when it comes to messaging,
whether it be in a deck or
whether it be on a website,
less is more, right?
Let's get
really, really clear on
what they care about.
And I think that they could
be a little clearer here.
Oh yes.
And that's such a
great example and I
think you're so right.
Like if I'm, you know, just
revisiting their website,
it does, it does get a
bit like repetitive and
there is, there is kind of
a lot here, like they've
got, and I'm trying not to
critique on like design,
'cause I'm not a designer.
What do I know about
what website design?
Nothing.
So, but you're right,
it is kind of like.
It's a lot for, it would be a
lot for me, even if this was
all like product marketing.
Like if this was a product
marketing company and it
was the same like volume of
content, it's like too much.
It's putting too much
ownership or um, onus
on the customer to
have to figure out.
What am I, you know,
what do you do?
What do you offer,
um, et cetera.
So yeah, I think that's, uh,
a really strong call out.
While still they, um,
they've got the, they've
got the foundation.
Maybe it's just
rearranging a bit and
focusing in on the ICP.
So shout out Maven Clinic.
I think, you know, you
guys are on the right
track and excited to
see how it iterates.
I'm actually just excited
to see how this company
go, you know, how, how
they perform going forward.
'cause it's something that I'm
very passionate about, so I
just
kind
Yeah.
tabs on so
Aw, I love that we're
rooting for you.
Maven Clinic.
All right, so Cara, one
last thing I like to make
space for on the podcast
is a moment of gratitude
because in product marketing,
none of us get here alone.
We're always learning
from each other, building
in of each other.
I guess we're
community of our own.
So before we wrap up, I just
wanna say a genuine thank you
for all the work that goes
into putting this episode
together, um, and all the time
that you've spent, and your
generosity and sharing your
expertise, um, is so helpful.
So thank you so much.
It's been such a pleasure
to have you on the show.
Well, thanks for
And.
Yes, of course.
Um, and then likewise, I'd
like to turn it around to you
and give you a chance to give
a shout out to a few pmms
who have shaped your career
and brought you to, you know,
the successful point in your
career that you're at today.
I love this question.
Honestly, one of the things
I love about the product
marketing community is
how open everyone is.
Um, people are always
willing to share.
I've reached out to
different people about
my consulting work.
When I was thinking of
kicking that off, I've
gotten, you know, ideas from
people just really kind of
understand, you know, other
people's career progression.
And I feel like everyone
has this mentality of
like, we're in it all.
We're all in it together, and
like, let's help each other.
And so.
That's a big part of why I
started between launches a
very small but mighty group.
Um, and I feel like I
learned something from
that group every month.
Um, and we're even starting
to get a little, little bit
of traction in our online,
um, our LinkedIn group.
so instead of just calling
out one or two people, I'd
like to really call out the
collective PMM community
that had the biggest
impact on me.
Is that a cop out?
Do you feel?
No, not at all.
Not at all.
I love it.
Yeah.
I mean, there's so many
great ones out there, way too
many, uh, to list for sure.
I know I a hundred percent and
I just shout out to listeners
out there to check out the
between launches community to
get a sense of what Cara is
talking about here and, and
get a piece of some of that
goodness that you're getting,
that you know, the sounding
board and a place to go and
get feedback, share ideas.
Um.
I think that's, you know,
just, it's such a value add.
Um, and it's the whole, you
know, it truly is part of the
definition that you laid out.
It's just at the start
of the episode for
what a community is.
All right, so my last question
for you is, where else can
we access your expertise?
Is it best to just
find you on LinkedIn?
That's probably the best.
I, I try to put some,
you know, kind of thought
leadership content out there.
Um, the between launches
community is there.
Feel free to, you know,
connect, dm. Um, I'm usually
pretty quick at following up.
Um, but yeah, I'd love to
love to get to know you.
Awesome.
Again, thank you so much,
Cara and hey, PMM listeners,
if you liked this episode,
please share it with a PMM
friend and I would be so
grateful if you would leave
a review or hit subscribe.
It helps tremendously
with our reach.
Thank you so much
for coming with us on
this adventure today.
I hope this episode leaves
you with inspiration to
take in the next step
of your own journey.