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Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
Yeah. I personally hate it. Like, I don't I I think I refuse now to take a take take home challenge. And and the reason is I'm gonna be investing a lot of man hours that I'm not being paid for. And And if I don't get the job, that is, like, to me, like, a lost investment.
Tyler:Like, I've I've put on this work just because you have the inability to qualify me as a future employee, and and the take home test is how you do that. When in reality, I don't think the take home test really it it doesn't really test the right thing. And
Nick:you're officially live. We're officially live. Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:The design application process or onboarding process has historically had many steps. And one of the steps that I'm seeing get a lot of noise recently is the take home challenge. So the idea that as part of the process for the for the company enterprise to kind of validate if you know your stuff is to sign you a kind of take home exercise that takes around like four or five hours. You bring it back, and then they'll grade you on it. Though I'm hearing a lot of complaints about, like, this takes too much time.
Tyler:I should be paid for this work. I'm curious what your perspective is on on the take home challenge.
Nick:I think I think it's a terrible direction that we're heading into. I think there are just way too many rounds, and there are just so many horror stories there of people getting their work getting stolen, that kind of that kind of thing. And it it just leaves me with a bad taste even without being able to properly look at the take home challenge in question. Mhmm.
Tyler:Yeah. I personally hate it. Like, I don't I I think I refuse now to take a take take home challenge. And and the reason is outside of the I'm doing free work, it's it like, how it's usually set up is like, this usually this should only take you about two or three hours. And you are fine.
Tyler:That's could but it never takes two to three hours. It is always No. It always takes days of my life because I'm if I'm generally doing a take home challenge, I really want this job. So I'm gonna go above and beyond Mhmm. To do this, get this work done.
Tyler:Yeah. So I'm gonna be investing a lot of man hours that I'm not being paid for. And if I don't get the job, that is, like, to me, like, a lost investment. Like, I've I've put on this work just because you have the inability to qualify me as a future employee, and and the take home test is how you do that. When in reality, I don't think the take home test really it it doesn't really test the right thing.
Tyler:It just tests that you can work in a silo. Like, when in that when in reality, that's not how you work. You work in collaboration with other people. You are like, I don't know how like, your day to day looks like, but I imagine it's the same as mine. If I am tasked with something, I'm not going into a tunnel and then going surprise, here's my end deliverable.
Tyler:I'm talking to stakeholders. I'm getting doing some research, collaborating with others, getting feedback rounds. I don't just show up with a shiny thing, and then we're gonna ship that thing. It's a lot of, like, iteration.
Nick:Yeah. No. I'm I'm the same. And I've always wondered if you, like, if you would approach it that way. Let's say you're midway through your your take home task.
Nick:Like, if you would just have the balls to to call them up like, hey. I have something. Let's discuss before I finish it up. I wonder if you can get away with that. You know?
Nick:Not saying you should because we're not a problem here. Just the fact that it exists is the problem. But that's just that's something I've been been wondering. Yeah. Well, this is a bit of a side note.
Nick:I also had a I had a different company where they asked me to come in for a day, do a trial day. So that's, you know, not as much as a tunnel as a typical take home task. They just want to see how I perform, you know, while in an office room with different people.
Tyler:That's a bit better. Like, I I would appreciate, like, you actually going in. So you you got to work. It's not like they just gave you a desk and you worked, but, like, you worked for
Nick:I I said no to them. I said no to them.
Tyler:You did? Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. I I I but that's that was more of the total picture. Like, they had a a level of arrogance over them. Like, you know, you know what? You come in.
Nick:We'll see if you fit here. You'll we'll see if you belong, you know, and then also not paying me. So I had to take a day off work. So it's not only me not getting money from them, but it's also me losing money from somewhere else, plus travel. You know, I I I felt like an auction, like a pig at an auction, and, you see if he's big enough for slaughter.
Nick:You know? I I really didn't didn't like it, so I told him no. But, you know, that being said, I think it's it's, I I won't say it's better than a take home task, but I actually, it's it's it's less bad.
Tyler:Yeah. Here like, here's what I'd say. Like, if let me go with my I'd if I was a recruiter, my ideal setup, and then we can get into, like, practical takes of, like, even if you have if you have to take the take home, what are the best practices there? But I think, like, for me, like, the if you really have to test if you if doing a portfolio review isn't enough and you actually wanna test someone's thinking, do a whiteboarding challenge. I think it's fine.
Tyler:Yeah. That's it doesn't take a lot of your time. It's an hour. Like, I know it's a it's an hour session of, like, the the seven hour interview process. But, like Mhmm.
Tyler:I'll accept that it's and it makes sense because you're testing how I work in collaboration with others. So there's usually someone who's pretending to be the stakeholder. Here's a challenge, and you're allowed you're allowed to ask questions. It's working collaboratively, and you're not, like Yeah. In a in a bunker working on something.
Tyler:That, I think, is a good way that's a good medium to not waste the the person's time, but also qualify them in a in a proper way. I think that's that's the only way I see, like, this this working, if you actually wanna test them.
Nick:Yes. Yes. I think so. I also don't think you have to pay for an hour. You know?
Nick:I think it's small enough that it's it's worth the risk. But then again, the the whiteboarding, the challenge, and you can also do is during one of your regular interviews. I have many times I've had a the interviewer ask me, like, oh, by the way, what would you improve about our current app? Like, just out of the blue, they would ask me. You know?
Nick:And then that results in a mini whiteboard challenge, you know, because you start to discuss and brainstorm together. Mhmm. Unless you unless you're stupid and you say something like, I don't know, you know, which you shouldn't say. Usually, that ends up with a good discussion. You know?
Nick:So, yeah, I mean I mean, it's it's just getting too big, you know, the number of rounds that you have to do, you know, phone call, introduction call, meet a team call, technical interview, presentation interview. It's yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:It's been too long. It's just like because you're you're also trying to balance. And then also, like like, if you wanna see the other side of it, it's like you are trying to get as much qualified volume of of potential employees into the funnel, and then you're you're you're running several or if not, like, a dozen of these simultaneously, and you're you're being strung along. Like, you have these multiple rounds, but it's also because they wanna find the right person. So there could be, like, 10 candidates, and they're trying to narrow down to, like, the final couple.
Tyler:And then be able to add another round because they wanna they have someone who's, like, a week behind. So they wanna delay you to see if this one this one person is better than you. Oh, yes. It's like it's like that there's that on the other side. So, like, one of the reasons why those those rounds are long is just to make sure that they're getting the right person, which is like, if you're being strung along just because they wanna make sure that if this person is not better suited for the position, that's a a shitty thing also.
Nick:Yeah. True. True. Well, you know, I mean, mean, they're they're thinking about themselves. They they are thinking about the what the business needs here.
Nick:And I can't really blame a business for thinking about the business, but to make it it should be a bit more user friendly where the user is the candidate. So I think what would go a very long way is just for a take home challenge and just to pay you for your time. You know, be a decent human being and give give a person, like, $250 for four hours or $300 or whatever. It doesn't even have to be a extreme amount of money, but just enough to symbolize this idea of, like, hey. We are in a a company where we value each other as human beings, and we also value you even though, you know, we might just not be a good fit at in the end.
Nick:But we're going to treat each other well while we figure that out. You know? And then for business, that's just peanuts. Like, if you're a large company, like, $300, like, or whatever, man.
Tyler:Yeah. The overall overall recruiting cost is like, $200 is not even close to, like, the total budget for, like Yeah. To to recruit that person. Yeah. And also, like Yeah.
Tyler:Set set expectations, like and make sure you don't go over the four hours. Like, we're paying for this month. Like, get it done in four. If it takes if it takes longer, that's fine. It's Yeah.
Tyler:Just give us the work that's time boxed in four hours.
Nick:Yeah. You know what? Yeah. I agree. But that's very hard because you're also insecure.
Nick:You know, you've had 80 or hundreds rejections, and finally, someone invites you for an interview and a and a task. So you better ace it. You know? So that's what you're saying in the beginning. You're probably going to go over anyway.
Nick:And what I also think is, like you said, like, you're examining someone while working alone, which doesn't make sense. But, also, it's a bit of a lottery because you don't know the way they work. You know? Like, maybe you made all this work in FigJam full of sticky notes and a Loom recording, but maybe they just wanted it in code. You know?
Nick:Who knows? Like, you you cannot be 100% certain that they have a good brief for you. You know, maybe they left something out because they're not really design mature, and they don't know how to explain it very well what they're looking for. Yeah. You know?
Nick:I mean, I've lost a job because I wrote things down, but they wanted me to talk. You know? I didn't know. I just like to make notes, you know, while brainstorming. Not during, like, real meetings, but when I'm on my own, like, I make sketches and little notes and things.
Nick:Like, they didn't like it. You know? And then you lose a job because of something that feels natural to you.
Tyler:Oh, yeah.
Nick:You know? So that's very annoying when that happens.
Tyler:That's a yeah. It's a strange one. The the expect like, it's also, like, if you're the employer, like, setting clear expectations. Like, I've lost jobs because that wasn't clear. They've they've they've told me something, and then they expected something else.
Tyler:It's like, be clear up front what what needs to be done. But also, like, I'm thinking, like, the take home exercise, I don't know what that tests at all. Like, what is like, here's a question. What is the difference between a tech take home exercise and a portfolio review? Practically, what's the difference other than they told you what to do?
Nick:It's I I think the difference is is timing, I think. Portfolio has been done before or maybe relevance also. Like, they're asking you to do something relevant to what they're doing so they can see how you perform for something that you might actually do on the job. But that's what they are thinking. Like, I don't think that really makes sense because if you cannot see relevant work in their portfolio, why even invite them?
Nick:Like, there's something in their portfolio, but what triggers you to be like, hey. This might be a potential. You know? So but so that's what I think what they are thinking, they being the company.
Tyler:They show me something relevant.
Nick:But, yeah,
Tyler:in that, like you but you are, like I asked that question because I think you're doing the same thing. You're presenting a solution to a problem, and it's just a a problem that you're familiar with. It's like Mhmm. The, like, the design thinking process is the same regardless. And this is coming from someone who I've never worked in the same industry from job to job.
Tyler:I've always jumped industries. So, like, I have I am the belief that it doesn't matter what the relevance. Like, I get it. Like, if you've seen this problem, it's quicker to onboard someone because they've they've seen this this this space before, but the same design thinking process applies. Yeah.
Tyler:I don't think it really matters, the domain. I don't think it truly matters because you have the ability to solve problems and regardless of the industry. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. It it it helps a little bit in getting up to speed quicker, but also not as much as people think. You know? Like, I've done a lot of projects in health care without me wanting to or that being a goal. It just happens.
Nick:So, yeah, every now and then, I think I yeah. I've seen that before. You know? I get that. But then again, it's different enough that you have to start from scratch anyway.
Nick:You know? So yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. I'm wondering two things because I see a lot of horror stories on on social media.
Nick:You know, people having their work stolen, for example. Like, oh, yeah. I I made this take home task and they didn't pick me, which is okay. But I look at their website six months later and they used my work. And that's something people say.
Nick:So that's something I want to talk about. And then the second thing is all these rounds of interviews. Is that an American thing? Because I don't see it in The Netherlands at all. I see still, like, three rounds, you know, get to know your call, technical call, job offer call.
Nick:That's it.
Tyler:Yeah. It is to answer that question, maybe it's an American thing. That's what I've experienced. It's usually, like, it's either depends on how if you're being outreach first. So if something like someone from HR is reaching out to you, it's like, hey, I think you've perfected this job.
Tyler:Like, great. I'd love to talk about it. And then the first call is, well, why would you be great for us? Well, you reached out to me, so that's why I figured. You saw something in me first.
Tyler:But
Nick:Yeah. So
Tyler:it's usually that call and then it's meeting with the team. It could be one. And then meeting with the hiring manager and then meeting and then the tests or the whiteboard challenge, and then potentially meeting with the CEO, which is like the they call it the bar raiser round. So it's like, what sets you above the the, like, the baseline bar. So it's like that's the qualification at the end, and then it's the the offer.
Nick:Yeah. That's a lot of rounds. I'm I'm I'm getting tired just listening to it, to to thinking about it. You know?
Tyler:Oh, it's a tremendous amount. Yeah.
Nick:Did did you have to go through that many rounds for, let's say, your last two or four employers?
Tyler:I'm trying to think now. Going around
Nick:today I know it's been a while.
Tyler:Four, two, three, four. Four rounds for this one.
Nick:Okay. Well, that that's okay.
Tyler:That's fine. I think around there. Around three to four.
Nick:Okay.
Tyler:I've had a trip
Nick:I would not pass.
Tyler:I think it's okay. I've gotten I've well, that's saying to get the job. So maybe it's a maybe it's a testament that I don't do well in seven rounds. But I've done it. So maybe maybe That's something we don't correctly.
Nick:The only thing we do know is that you succeeded at four rounds.
Tyler:Yes. Yeah. So maybe I'm I'm a terrible seven rounder.
Nick:Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. Makes me think of tennis where you have like three rounds, three sets, bring aim, and then in the final it's five in some tournaments.
Tyler:Yeah. Can I tell you something that annoys me about these rounds? Yeah. Or an another thing that annoys me is the if you get rejected, fine.
Nick:Yep.
Tyler:But I think it should be a requirement to give feedback on like, I've seen so often where you get the reject you get you everything is personable. You talk to the people. You're you're talking to someone for every interaction. And then even if it's an email, it's very personalized email. And then the rejection the rejection letter is a automated email that you know is a template, which basically, we're not moving forward.
Tyler:And then but you're looking Thank you for your time. Thank you for your time. We've found we decided to move forward. Like, how like, see how unpersonal that is. And, like, if you go through and you are actually doing the, like, the whiteboard exercise or the tape exercise, you should I want you should give feedback.
Tyler:Like Yeah. The I would have done this better, this better. This is why we're going with this other person. So that, like, that is a learning opportunity for them for that like, as an employer, like, I should be doing my job to give them the feedback necessary so that for the next job, they're better prepared, and they might get it.
Nick:They may not be a
Tyler:fit for me, but, like, they might be a better fit for someone else because they've learned based on this feedback.
Nick:Yeah. True. Before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both of us. No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description. Wouldn't that be nice? You know, wouldn't that be a dream? I I think it it just makes sense.
Nick:Like, I think it's really important just to be a decent human being, you know, be polite and say, hello. How are you? How are you? And good morning, you know, that kind of thing, but also what you're saying. So I I I yeah.
Nick:I'm just like, yes. Yes. That makes a lot of sense. You know? And it will pay itself back because people talk.
Nick:You know? Oh, man. I just had a terrible experience doing a a take home task for company, you know, x or y or or a or b or whatever. Mhmm. You know, we will remember.
Nick:But, also, we will even more remember the the good experience because I still remember for my very first time trying to find a job. Like, there was this one company where I got, like, two or three paragraphs back in with, like, very personalized feedback
Tyler:Mhmm.
Nick:And suggestions for my portfolio websites. Like, not only they didn't only tell me this and this and this were reasons not to go for you, but also they were, like, looking at your portfolio, I think you can do better here and this, and how about this thing over there? You know, they they really took their time to send me a message, and every now and then, I drive past their office building, you know, because it's just on a main street in a town nearby. You know? So I'm not stalking them, but it's just I have to be places.
Tyler:Yeah.
Nick:And I'm like, oh, yeah. Remember? They really helped me. You know, you do remember, and that will pay itself back. So, yeah, be nice.
Nick:So. Be nice.
Tyler:Might apply again and be a better candidate the next time. Yeah. That showed that's beneficial on both ends. They might take your feedback, go back, update those things, be better, and then they'll be even more useful. And you might take them the second time because they
Nick:Yes.
Tyler:Number one, they've shown that, like, they really wanna work here, and they're willing to do the work, which is all you wanna see as an employer. Like, the ability to like, you love this company and you you really wanna be here, and also you take feedback and and and iterate and get better. Like, that's Yeah. Like, come on.
Nick:Yeah. Of course. You know, all you want to see is that people are motivated, willing to learn, and doing their best, you know, because they will learn from you and you will learn from them. So yeah. So so that's I think, you have the employer side and you have the candidate side.
Nick:So the employer side, I think we've, you know, tackled quite well. You know, we're telling about, you know, pay people for their time. Give them honest feedback. You know? Don't be an overworked, you know, HR middle manager and do nothing, but just do something.
Nick:You know? Yep. Be nice. Then we also have the candidate side. Yes.
Nick:What are some and we both agreed there are moments where you can just say no. Mhmm. Are there any, like, clear red flags that people should look out for? Like, if you see one of those, it's an instant no?
Tyler:An instant no? It's just I mean, for me, an instant no is do the test at all. So I'll be like,
Nick:no. Thank you. Well, okay. Yeah. I mean, I mean, you're a successful designer.
Nick:You are in a great job. You're just been promoted. You have a lot of fun. And but let's say you are let's
Tyler:Oh, here's here's a good one. Here's a good test. Okay. So the first me. Boom.
Tyler:The the really good test is if the HR person or the is knowledgeable about the product or service that you're applying for. If they are at a certain level of knowledge about the product, that means there's a company culture that is being set. Everyone is every everyone's goal like, there's a clear state of, like, what we're doing here. And, typically, like, the the product designer engineer people know more about the product. But if that knowledge is consumed by everyone, especially, like, the hiring manager, like, that's a really good sign.
Tyler:Like, they know how to they're not just they're not just hired to get people in the door. They understand the vision, the product, and they wanna be there for the specific vision in the product. So that's a really good sign. Like, if you're like that that that stage is for them assessing you, but, like, if you can assess their level of knowledge and ask them questions about the product, why is this product good? Why would you do like, if they answer those correctly, that's a really good sign as a green flag
Nick:for them. Yeah. Okay. So that okay. May yeah.
Nick:Maybe looking at green flags. So another green flag is then, of course, turning around thing we just talked about. Like, if they already mentioned, like, hey. By the way, just participating and submitting something in this team take home task gets you x amount of dollars. Mhmm.
Nick:You know, that's a good thing. I think a red flag is duration. Like, if you just get, like, three or four pages of description and things they want you to do, they they basically want you to design a full feature in four hours. Like, if it's just way out of bounds, like, too big, too much Mhmm. I think that's something to push back on at least.
Nick:But probably just say no. Like, this is just way overkill.
Tyler:Yeah. Agree. Another one would be pay transparency. So a nice technique that I like to use when they there's a question of, like, what what are your salary expectations? I usually flip it back and ask, well, what are the salary bands?
Tyler:Which mean which is essentially just asking. There's, like, for a position, there's usually, like, a min and a max for that position of, like like
Nick:That's true.
Tyler:And that Yeah. That talks about, like, promotions. Like, you usually start here, but, like, you can get from for each year, you get a salary review, and you can get incremental bumps. And then it usually gets bumped. The ceiling is at a certain percentage.
Tyler:So for me, like, I don't like to answer that question because I don't wanna be handcuffed to I don't wanna undershoot my salary, so I I push it back on them. If they're transparent about what that salary band is, green flag. Because, like, that should be transparent. Like, they have clear expectations of what what you should be paid, and they're not just looking for the minimum. They're not
Nick:Well, that's very interesting. So yeah. So so what you're basically saying is you're asking questions and their answer either is a green or a red flag.
Tyler:Yeah. If I ask, like
Nick:So if they
Tyler:If they ask me what do you wanna be paying, I go, what is the salary band? And they go, it's between this and this. Does that sound okay? And if it's okay, then say yes. If it's not, say, no.
Tyler:I was looking for more of this. Because, like, that that seller conversation usually comes really late in the game sometimes. It's like
Nick:Yeah. That's true. Maybe it's a if they if they do not even talk about it in the beginning, like, before you even know there's a take home task, you know, is it something you would proactively ask about?
Tyler:I would ask before doing any test. Yeah. Yeah. Because imagine doing all that work and then the the salary is below what your expectation is.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, that yeah. That's that's why I asked. You know? I mean, that sucks.
Nick:There's a new rule, like, EU European Union law, either coming up or just, you know, I want to say went live, but that's, you know, law getting into power or into effect where it's a requirement to mention the salary range Yep. In a job opening. It's a requirement. So that's that's kinda cool. And then, also, you have to be transparent about all your colleague, their salary.
Nick:Like, everyone has to know salary about everyone, and that's to help open the doors for discussion about inequality between, you know, men and women, for example. So, yeah, I mean, that sounds like a good thing, you know, because that takes if if they still do not mention the salary bands, like, even with the law in place, like, that's, like, two red flags.
Tyler:A 100%. Yeah. If it's Yeah. That's really good practice. I like that.
Tyler:Like, I like seeing I like seeing the salary posting with the job posting. Like, on the other end, it could just be from the employer's point of view, it looks like a money grab. They're only applying because they saw the salary is above market value potentially. Yeah.
Nick:Well, I mean, to to just be honest, I think if the the employer ask things like, what does you what does what makes you stand out compared to the average? Mhmm. They're expecting above average, so they're going to pay above average. It's only fair. Fair.
Tyler:You know? Fair.
Nick:Yeah. I I think it it would be realistic, but also kinda silly for them to say, yeah. But, I mean, we're a market average company, so we're going to pay you market average.
Tyler:That's one way to sell yourself.
Nick:Yeah. I've I've never seen someone say that. Yeah. I I also think it's a red flag when the description of the take home task looks very, like, generated, like, template like or AI generated because it either means, you know, in the okay case, it means they're lazy. You know?
Nick:And in the worst case, it's the is they don't understand design, meaning they cannot really judge your work. And it's just a matter of, well, this looks pretty. He goes. He continues.
Tyler:Yeah. I think related to that is if the job description looks outdated. So they didn't take the time to Like, jobs evolve over time, but their templates often remain the same. So it's just like proficient in Photoshop in designing UI. Like, just like those kind of things.
Tyler:And on the other end, after it's like something like being AI, having five plus years of experience when it's only been around for the last two. Like, that's a that's a red flag also.
Nick:Yeah. True. Yeah. I I had a double encounter with Adobe XD just last week. You know, one was a recruiter calling me like, oh, and can you do Adobe XD?
Nick:I'm like, excuse me? It doesn't exist any anymore. Well, let me check that with the client. So that's the, I think, the first red flag you mentioned. You know, that doesn't sound like the recruiter knows what they're talking about.
Nick:And then the second one was me working with a client on branding stuff, and they're like, well, we're building a new website we have for this agency. I'm like, well, I should probably see the website before I do branding work just to see what you currently have and the the, you know, types of visuals and, you know, just to align with it. And they're like, oh, okay. Of course. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Let me let me grab a link from the agency. Then I got an Adobe XD link to a wireframe, which was kinda scary.
Tyler:Also, like, I wanna give one practical example to the take home exercise if you have to take it. Do the conversely to, like, on the on the job stuff. Do the take home test following every step of the design practice. Do the wireframe. Do the user persona.
Tyler:Do the do the high fidelity, do the research piece, do all the things. I've I've missed a boat because I skipped a couple of steps because I just assumed they know that I know how to do it. Do the typical follow, like, the seven step design process and then speak to every point during that session even though on the job you are skipping steps because you're Yeah. Or or you're excluding or doing things faster. Like, I think it's about showing that you have the fundamentals of doing each one of these things well, regardless of the discrepancy between how that interview looks like or the take home exercise looks like versus what it's gonna look like on
Nick:the job. Mhmm. Yeah. Do you think you can ask questions about it? Like, when you say you missed a boat because you assumed certain things, like, you get a take home task Mhmm.
Nick:Like, before you start, can you, like Yeah. Just email them back? Or is that a good thing? Because it sounds like a good thing to me. Makes you look interested and critical.
Tyler:The more questions you ask or email them back and forth, the more engaged the perception is from the employer. It's like, oh, this person is really asking questions. They're just not Yeah. It is not like they're just, like, taking it. Go.
Tyler:Here. Go. Take it. They're Yeah. They know that you you're asking questions.
Tyler:You're interested. You're it looks like you're very good in collaboration. Like, you're asking the right question, so it's not like, should I show how should I name my file? But, like, actual
Nick:plan Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tyler:Questions. Yeah. All good. Green green flags from the employer's point of view.
Nick:Yeah. Another thing you can do, I think, practically, is to if you have the equipment to record a a Loom summary in the end.
Tyler:A 100%.
Nick:Yeah. And have a, like, a a front page. Like, you have all your files that you're sending over, but also, like, a summary with one paragraph of text. Like, here, here's the main takeaway of what I did and why. Take a look at this loom for me walking you through the work, and then here are all the pages if you want to take a look yourself.
Tyler:That I would put that above I would rank that a tier or s tier Yeah. Whatever the the highest one is. S. S s. I would rank that s tier.
Tyler:Just because oftentimes the submission of the take home test doesn't result in a follow-up to present it. That's a good way. Like, I think having a Loom recording works for a multiple different things, but that one specifically works. Because like at what like, the main thing they are testing or one of the main things is your ability to articulate through your design decisions and also your ability to present to others Yeah. Which is what Yeah.
Tyler:Is which is, like, the big part of your job is, like, communicating your ideas to the different stakeholders. That's a big one.
Nick:True. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think an extension of what you said and I just said also is we, in my mind at least, we design a street tend to make things a bit bigger than what someone else asked for.
Nick:Right? So I tend to do the same thing. Instead of just cleaning up this thing because people ask for it, I made this whole new thing. You know? And we we are happy, but it's not what they asked for.
Nick:So before you really get to work, I would spend, like, thirty minutes just looking over the brief and see if you can debrief it. Like, just if you can see, like, what are they really looking for. Mhmm. And at the end of your time span that you had to work on it, look back at that debrief and be very critical with yourself. Did I answer their question?
Nick:That has to be a very strong yes. And then if you have some time left over, in addition to the answer on their question, you can have an my manager used to call it an if we can dream answer. Like, this is this is really the thing you need, but if we could dream, if we could make it really awesome, like 10 store experience, this is what we also could do. And that that can be as simple as just a cool visual or something animated or something fun just to have them go like, oh, we didn't think about that. And it also makes you look like you go the extra mile.
Nick:Yeah. Just a bit of advice from experience.
Tyler:That's a really good one.
Nick:Yeah. Anything else?
Tyler:I think, yeah, if I'm looking at yeah. Just if I'm thinking about it, like, be the typical I think from you have to be during the design process, like, when you're writing the job description and you're you're putting on this point, I think you're you're testing for the typical designer and design process on the job is different. I think that's important to, like, to over index that you can do all these different things when in reality, it's not the case. Also, like, another green flag would be, like, how responsive they are to your to your emails back and forth.
Nick:Yeah. Like, how quick they are?
Tyler:Yeah. How quick they
Nick:are. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. I have maybe one disclaimer that I wanted to throw in just to make sure that our advice isn't taken the wrong way because you and I, we both says, just say no. I'm not doing this.
Nick:Right? That's what we said in the beginning. I think we our listeners had to keep in mind that we, you know, both, like, senior designers, we are very busy. You know? You on the job, not looking for work.
Nick:I have lots of clients. I'm very busy. So we can afford to say no. Like, we don't really have to. You know?
Nick:We have enough to do to let that one go. If you are a junior designer or, you know, desperate, like in, you know, the the the person we tried to help in the previous episode, you know, sometimes you just have to say yes and be careful and just be you know, protect yourself, but still say yes because, you know, you have nothing, but you can always try to shoot for something. And it's also a learning process. You have you know, you can do a personal project and work on your own, but you can also do a real project with them, you know Yeah. And get real feedback, hopefully, knowing, of course, that there's a risk that you get ripped off and get no feedback.
Nick:But, yeah, sometimes you're in a position where you have to say yes. So do not take our no too seriously because we can afford to. Percent. Yeah. Yeah.
Nick:That's what I have to say on this subject at least.
Tyler:Yeah. I think I agree. I think we have some really good useful tips in this episode. Yeah. I would take them.
Tyler:See if you can apply it to, like, their current job market. I know we're we're in a buyer's market or employer market.
Nick:Employer market. For you.
Tyler:They they hold all the the cards, but also you should be looking, like, for those green flags also. It is a two way street. I would I'd just be aware of that.
Nick:Yeah. You I mean, you can be salty and and blame the whole world and and just, you know, not participate. But, you know, it's it's like you say, it's a two way street. You know, you can play your part. It increases your look surface for sure.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, we do all this kind of helping in our community and audits and that kind of stuff. Right?
Tyler:So 100%.
Nick:Yeah. If you need help, you know, we can sit down with you and, you know, help you prep for these interviews. I think we have the links in our description. In the
Tyler:Links in the description. Visit yes.designtablepodcast.com. All the links. Check the description.
Nick:All the links. Lots of links. It's a growing amount of links.
Tyler:Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.