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Always Be Testing explores the experiments, insights, and growth stories shaping the future of affiliate and partner marketing in B2B SaaS. Hosted by industry veterans, the show dives deep into real-world lessons from the people driving measurable impact at companies like Google, HubSpot, Ramp, Webflow, G2, and beyond.
Each episode uncovers what happens when today's most innovative marketers challenge assumptions, run smarter experiments, and build programs that scale revenue through meaningful partnerships. If you’re in affiliate, partnerships, or SaaS growth — this is your front-row seat to how the best do it (and what they’ve learned along the way
Tye DeGrange (00:01.63)
Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to another episode of the Always Be Testing Podcast. I am absolutely thrilled to welcome Avi Shag Danieli. Avi, how are you?
Avishag Daniely (00:14.21)
Hi, I'm great. How are you?
Tye DeGrange (00:16.648)
I'm doing well. we're here in Austin, Texas. You're in the Boston area. Is that right? Yep. Look at us. Austin and Boston. It rhymes. Avi is an amazing wealth of knowledge. she's got deep technical foundation and cybersecurity. She's led cyber operations for the IDF. she's been a security analyst, so I there's a lot of good things to talk about here at the
Avishag Daniely (00:22.422)
Yeah.
Avishag Daniely (00:26.669)
Love it.
Tye DeGrange (00:46.504)
intersection of cyber, marketing, technology. So I think you're in for a treat. Thanks for joining us, Avi.
Avishag Daniely (00:54.392)
Thank you for having me on. Happy to be here.
Tye DeGrange (00:56.176)
Absolutely. So currently leading marketing at one layer, right?
Avishag Daniely (01:01.88)
So marketing and alliances, I run both our strategic partnerships and marketing functions.
Tye DeGrange (01:06.546)
Amazing. Amazing. Obviously marketing and partnerships are very something very near and dear to me and our team. And you've built, you know, all sorts of things in terms of systems, teammates. there's a lot to cover. so I I think we've got some good things to talk about. W when we we you know, we we sometimes I like to do jumping right into the nitty-gritty and then kind of doing the personal and getting to know you at the end, but we kind of talked about it and said
Let's do it at the beginning. So what's give give the audience a little something about yourself and your background and maybe some things that people don't know about you.
Avishag Daniely (01:44.232)
sure. So today, as you mentioned, I'm heavily into cybersecurity. I've probably been doing that for about 15 years. but something that people don't know is that probably in a parallel universe, I would have been an artist about about 15 years ago actually had my work present in in some museums across the world. so it was a different feels like a different lifetime back then, but probably find them somewhere. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (02:09.074)
Wow. my gosh. Now I absolutely wanna look that up and and see. That's that's what I would not expect from someone in your field.
Avishag Daniely (02:20.501)
Yeah, it's it's not something that I usually talk about, but definitely something that's maybe the maybe that thing that I go back to when I retire. Who knows?
Tye DeGrange (02:30.856)
I love that. I love that. I think we all have those things. And I think it's a cool reminder. Like we everyone's so it can be so multifaceted and nuanced. And I think it's a great reminder. I'm probably gonna ask you more about that at some point. jumping into our discussion at hand as well, it there's there's a lot of talk in marketing and in partnerships around kind of like the shift in
the journey, maybe beyond like a typical funnel for your world where you're dealing with a very unique buyer persona, very unique journey. how do you kind of think about your buyer journey maybe differently? And in the context of marketing and partnership, how do you address it versus maybe more typical funnel?
Avishag Daniely (03:21.709)
So my take about the traditional funnel, the awareness consideration, is that it's very I'd say, enterprise centric from the vendor perspective, right? It's what the funnel looks like for us. But if we step into the perspective of the buyer, then they have their own journey of purchasing, which might or might not map to our traditional marketing funnel.
Right. So when we look at private cellular, for example, when you break down the buyer journey, not related to cybersecurity or one layer, the buyer journey of cellular networks, you can break it down into the different steps that your custom that our potential customer is walking through. So it would be first, you need to purchase Spectrum or have some form of spectrum license so that you can even start setting up your network. Then it leads into infrastructure. They'll need to look for a vendor to sell them the infrastructure for the network.
They can rent it, they can buy their own cellular core. There's a whole your own RAND, your own antennas. So there's a whole infrastructure layer there. And then if you follow that, then that's when they start adding different layers on top of it, right? So they've got spectrum, they've got their infrastructure, and now they need to start adding devices, right? So there's a whole device purchasing layer. SIM cards, you need to purchase SIM cards because it's cellular, right? All these different steps in a journey to set up the network are the key customer journey.
That we look at. And when I advocate for a buyer journey or a customer journey versus a traditional funnel, I mean we need to map our funnel to that cut buyer journey if we really want to intercept a deal, let's say as early as possible. Because the more if we're talking thinking brand awareness, if you're thinking how do you make yourself the go-to product, you want the customer to be aware of you from that very, very first early stage of looking at spectrum, right?
So that when they're already maybe buying infrastructure, which is the second step, that's when they're already getting you built into that solution, to that end to end architecture of a network. So the the funnel, the traditional marketing funnel is helps us understand where our buyers are in our internal journey, but they're not necessarily the right tool when you want to in when you want to incept yourself into the customer journey. So that's kind of my perspective.
Tye DeGrange (05:39.595)
I love yeah, that's amazing. I I think it's such a great reminder and call out. It's like I I don't think enough people have are are they need that reminder sometimes to kind of think about the the shoes of the customer and less about the the perspective of the vendor. And I think it's it it sounds obvious, but I think it's something that's a really great call out to make sure you're considering.
Avishag Daniely (06:04.085)
Yeah. And I think one of the major things that I find very beneficial is once you're able to articulate to yourself what's the relevant buyer journey that you want to incept yourself into, right? at that phase, you can also start mapping the different functions of your company that can influence that that specific step, right? If it's partnerships, if it's content that you need created, if it's targeting, if it's customer advocacy, there are all these different tools within your marketing.
toolbox that you can then go and influence within these different steps. So that's kind of the way that I recommend approaching this.
Tye DeGrange (06:42.996)
Yeah. And do you have maybe this is a bit of a off script question, doubling down on the ICP thing which we love. Is there is there maybe some suggestions for people or maybe a little peek behind the curtain of like how how you're getting the best data on ICPs and personas and how often you're updating them?
Avishag Daniely (07:07.231)
Okay. Well, I'd say this, it really depends on your data sources, but I'll be centric to what we are what what I would recommend doing and what what my experience has brought to the table. So first of all, you need to work with the right partners, right? As to get that information. You want to know who they are working with so that you can then help intercept or help influence or even build a joint motion towards them.
Right? Not all partners will be your pipeline partners, but a lot of your pipe partners can be your influence partners to eventually lead to pipelines. So you need to be very strategic in mapping that. So that's one area of data that you can use. The other area of data is to look for, I'd say you can use public knowledge, right? So if somebody's buying spectrum, it will be listed in a public database. You need access to that. You want to be looking at that.
Tye DeGrange (07:40.264)
Mm.
Avishag Daniely (08:01.471)
If somebody is thinking through their process of hiring, right? Somebody to manage that network. That's another nice indicator that you can use to understand where your customer is. So you can look at public information, public data to get that information, but you also need to leverage the t the tools beyond what you can do yourself like partners. And of course, last but not least, it's you can look at the classic inbound.
Tye DeGrange (08:01.758)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (08:12.67)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Avishag Daniely (08:25.537)
Let's say whoever visits your website, those that will look at your information, those that will attend your events or events that you go to and go by your booth and have those conversations. So all those can be different areas of data points that can help you build let's say or map the different potential customers or ICPs to their to that specific funnel journey by a journey. but I'd say more so than everything as a come as startup.
Right, that needs to grow. You have to have those hands-on conversations with as many customers as possible, to be able to really gauge where things stand. So it's about getting in front of your potential customers as much as possible and then sifting through who is in the right ripeness to move towards more of a buying phase.
Tye DeGrange (09:09.831)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (09:15.708)
Yeah, this this on my SAS class variant of the pod we do monthly, this came up specifically around a takeaway of like, you know, thinking about tools like Gong and A and LLM combining and thinking through synthesizing your actual customer conversations, your actual customer questions and pain points, and then really learning and developing plans from those. I actually brought it up in my talk last week at
IPX Impact's annual partner event here actually in Austin and and it was something that our team historically has done a lot of as well of like really not shying away from those sales people that have such great rich knowledge talking to con customers live and going through their issues and challenges. So I love that call out that you referenced too.
Avishag Daniely (10:10.977)
Yeah, definitely. You've got to tune in to as many customer conversations as possible. There's no beta data better data than what the customer is saying or those closest to them are. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (10:12.424)
I love it.
Tye DeGrange (10:21.78)
Yeah, it's fantastic. we talked a little bit about how do you think about de-risking the decision? You know, it's obviously a large one, it's obviously multifaceted, there's a lot of players involved. you know, when the enterprises think about cellular spectrum as a topic, we've talked about this. you know, they kind of have of a buy, rent, or a piggyback option. Can you educate us a little bit around how that
works for the buyer and and how you de-risk that decision.
Avishag Daniely (10:52.749)
Sure. So what we first of all, what we do at at OneLayer is we focus on the cybersecurity space or securing the actual assets connected to a private cellular network. But what we've what we are doing is we are building the go-to product, the de facto product, for anyone building their own private cellular network. We are that specific solution that can help them operationally manage that network, be able to secure those devices connected and make sure.
That they are making those decisions as early as possible within their buyer journey of a network, not related to cybersecurity, because when you build a network from scratch, or when you start out in your journey in the very beginning, and you build in these operational elements and security elements from the get-go, then you're actually building a resilient operational technology network from the get-go and adhering to any compliance or any regulations internal or external that you might need. So when
Our customers are looking at cellular spectrum. That's their, I'd say, the first stage within the decision to or within the process of building their own private cellular network. And a private cellular network can be anything from I'm buying my own spectrum to then set up my own private core, my own private antennas. That's very utility-oriented. think of a grid.
Right, of a utility grid. they would need their own infrastructure. They can't necessarily rely on public providers. They might augment with public providers, but still they'd they'd need their own resilience, right? They have their own regulations, so they'd buy. But if it's a factory, for example, they might not need to buy their own spectrum. They can rent it. rent as in by a slight
Tye DeGrange (12:30.954)
Yeah. Yeah.
Avishag Daniely (12:38.805)
Hospitals are very common to do that. They would, I'd say, buy a slice from a public provider like a Verizon and ATT at T-Mobile and or anyone in Europe or Latin America for that matter, and actually rent the spectrum and maybe even and then the antennas that come with it to provide that spectrum, but they might set up their own core or they might then what we call piggyback and use a public core provider as well with their own SIM cards.
Tye DeGrange (12:40.692)
Mm.
Avishag Daniely (13:06.965)
So there's a lot of different models, and you can call it complete private. It's my own core, it's my own antennas, it's my own spectrum. It can be a hybrid model. I might have my private core public antennas. and I'm using the the Lehman terms here, right? It's not necessarily the yeah. No problem. And then last but not least, there might be a complete, let's say I'm piggybacking on a public provider network, I'm using their
Tye DeGrange (13:23.658)
Thank you. I need all the help I can get, and the audience does too.
Avishag Daniely (13:36.694)
connection, but by own SIM cards. So all of these are still considered a private network. If you own the device, it's it's yours to secure. If that device is the reason that you were eventually under risk or attacked or hacked, you you still hold the accountability. It doesn't matter if the infrastructure is yours or not. So that's any one of these would be a private cellular network for that matter and there are just different ways there. Now the reason a customer
Tye DeGrange (13:37.748)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (13:46.248)
Mm.
Tye DeGrange (13:58.965)
Yeah.
Avishag Daniely (14:04.503)
would choose one or the other, or the reason an enterprise would choose one or the other is related first and foremost to their own needs. So if we're thinking utilities, think large area networks, right? You need to cover a whole city, a whole state. in those cases you'd want you'd need resilience. you'd need your ability if there's a Verizon outage, you'd need your ability to still maintain connectivity to all those different devices connected to that network. So you'd build your own infrastructure.
You might augment with public providers as well so that you have that backup, right? But you do but a lot of them are choosing for the I'll own the whole infrastructure. We have seen enterprises still go for full, full public led or or a hybrid model in utility cases as well, but still that's a very classic path of I will own the whole thing end to end. If you're thinking of manufacturers or hospitals or mines, right?
They could choose different models. Mines would usually still build their own antennas for coverage. If you think about it, it could be underground, could be a huge hole that needs to be covered, and then public providers might not provide the coverage. So there's a lot of different elements that you'll need to consider in this. And they can be first, what kind of coverage do I need? Do the public providers give me that coverage? Yes or no? What eventually is my return on investment for this network?
Building your own network end-to-end has its cost, right? you need to weigh the price of renting the spectrum versus building your own for a 10 or 20 year project, because we're not talking about short-term projects here. So all of these are different elements that our customers consider when deciding which path to go down for for their own private network. And they also do this by the way by consulting each other, either by forms.
that were built for their specific domain around this space or by forums built by by affiliates in this domain, but they still do have that those conversations to learn from each other.
Tye DeGrange (16:08.81)
Yeah, I love that. It it's so there's so many interesting nuances to this. Are there I I'm curious, like at a basic level, what's that threshold of like size and complexity for a business that's and an entity that's like willing and able to do this? For someone who doesn't know this world and and is, you know, not not not familiar with it, right? So what's the what's the smallest type of entity that would be able to even consider this? I mean, I know it's enterprise, but
Avishag Daniely (16:37.047)
I mean so it it could be as small as a factory with key fifty with fifty key devices, right? 'Cause if you're thinking fully automated factory floor, right? And they would need think manufacturing four point No no humans on the man on on the floor, right? No no no person to manage anything on the floor. Everything needs to be fully automated and everything needs to run smoothly. with maybe somebody in headquarters,
Tye DeGrange (16:45.672)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Avishag Daniely (17:06.679)
Clicking a couple of buttons here and there, right? That's that's the mindset of of the fully automated factory floor. That could sum up to about 50 devices, key automated guided vehicles that you need within that area, maybe a couple of other key devices, OTO operational technology devices connected there. But that could be it. As small as that could be a key factory. But usually you won't see a single factory, right? If you're thinking one of the major manufacturers, they would deploy private cellular across tens of factories or
Tye DeGrange (17:31.124)
Mm-hmm.
Avishag Daniely (17:35.874)
The whole pro they probably start with one just for like the let's see how this goes and then expand, which we've seen. We've seen within the past couple of years enterprise manufacturers starting with one site ending up with 600, one site ending up with 40. So it really it really is evolving, but it could be as small as that. think of airports, for example. they would start out with specific cases.
Tye DeGrange (17:40.404)
Mm-hmm.
Avishag Daniely (17:59.726)
of of operational of OT devices connected to that network, it could start out with about a 20-50 device case, but then it would go and expand to more and more different devices, different kind of operational devices on that floor. And so there even if we're thinking about let's say how you scale this, right? So you can start with a small, a small network, as small as 50 devices, and that could be it if it's a manufacturing floor. But it could also and then scale would be more factories covered by that.
by cellular, or you start out with a specific amount of devices not too large, but you add on use cases as you go and adopt the technology successfully to show value, which we've seen, by the way, we've seen this in airports here in the US on the East Coast, starting out with a couple of tens of devices, ending up with hundreds, if not thousands, eventually. So yeah.
Tye DeGrange (18:44.896)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (18:50.196)
Wow.
Wow, that's fascinating. we talked a little bit about like, you know, kind of how do you build out for the non-expert. And we talked a bit about the the different like you know, chain of influencers or the the I the customers themselves at at a basic level, and you can you kind of touched on it a lot. I mean, I think you you you shared a little bit about ideal customer personas and who influences that buying decision. Can you maybe
Talk a bit more about that and like, you know, wha what other what other aspects do you use as those triggerers and and what do you look for in those influencers that that help determine the decision?
Avishag Daniely (19:33.72)
Sure. So when we think through the, let's say, the ideal customer persona or the the key influencers, it it does depend, it does change a little bit per let's say industry. So if you're going for your own fully set up end-to-end network with a private core and your own RAN, your own antennas.
you'll probably invest also in an expert in private cellular to run and manage that whole network and architect it, right? So you'd have a network architect or a director of network director of LTE or director of private 5G within your enterprise that is dedicated to this. And that is the ideal persona, right? Somebody who has their own budget, their end-to-end responsibility for the core, a team to make for the for the network, a team to perhaps manage it.
That is the key, let's say, persona that you'd look for. But in smaller enterprises, if we're thinking about that factory with the 50 devices, they'd probably not go and invest in hiring their own cellular expert in-house to do the whole thing end-to-end. In that case, what they do is usually have a system integrator come in, help them build that network, help them architect it, design it. But within the enterprise, and then of course we need to know and work with those system integrators, and that would be
Not necessarily the persona on the end customer, but still the partner that we would need to focus and work with. On the end customer, those would be maybe traditional IT or network architects that are more of the IP side of the domain, not cellular, but still definitely the people that are running the network. If we're thinking like second circle of influence there, we're going to be looking at the device owners, the people that actually manage the devices.
Tye DeGrange (21:04.202)
Mm-hmm.
Avishag Daniely (21:25.791)
And are responsible for the end device connected to the network. Those are on their own a whole kind of team, especially in larger enterprises, but still even in smaller enterprises, there are people that are in charge of the device itself. And those are the people that would have to be responsible for connecting that device to the cellular network, for the SIM cards involved, for the device itself and securing it. Those are additional personas that, if they have their own budget, amazing. Sometimes they do, but most of the cases they'll be an influencer within this decision.
And if we step a step further, of course, security teams have to be involved. They're a major influencer. it can go all the way up to the CISO or it can be within a committee there, but a lot in a lot of cases the security teams are either leading this, which we've seen in many manufacturers. So we've actually had a manufacturer that has about 40 different private cellular networks, 40 different factories covered with private cellular and
Security has made the decision to not roll out any factory floor operationally if it's not secured. Right? If it's not, if if you want to roll out a private cellular network for this specific factory, it has to be secured, specifically in that case with one layer. But just generally, if you're thinking through this, it shows how important that influence is, right? They can be a go-no-go for a network setup.
So if you if we're involved with the security team from the get-go, then you can help, let's say, unblock those potential blockers or even rolling out a network. so those are key influencers within the decision. And many times they also hold their own budgets to be able to to to to buy the solution.
Tye DeGrange (22:47.185)
Mm-hmm.
Tye DeGrange (23:05.352)
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely fascinating. Yeah. The obviously the testing theme of the pod is huge and we you know, we we lean into that and there's there's so many learnings that come of it. Can you share a little bit about some of the test and learn experiences you've you've had and maybe some that are notable that the audience might find interesting? Like I'd curious to hear more about some of the things you've experienced there.
Avishag Daniely (23:30.263)
Sure. so there are there are different aha moments that can happen along maybe I'll use something that's not from my recent role, rather from a previous one. So I I was part of a company a couple of years ago called Gardecor. It was eventually sold to Akamai for six hundred million was a great exit, a great, I'd say, great experience. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely amazing. And it's
Tye DeGrange (23:40.64)
Perfect.
Tye DeGrange (23:50.666)
Congrats. That's absolutely amazing.
Avishag Daniely (23:56.686)
and and I call it the the best school for for stuffs, right? We've seen it all, we've pivoted, we've invested in the right and the wrong places to eventually come to great success. So really a wonderful journey there. And there was a key aha moment that happened in a customer conversation there. We were selling into a specific security market that isn't where we ended up. We ended up in segmentation, we were early on in in deception in a specific market that's called deception back then, and
we were already selling for a few million dollars. We had nice AR, but the general feeling is was that market is probably capped. There's they're just so so there's just that far that you can go in that specific security market. And we we sat down with customers who were really appreciative and using the solution in their day-to-day. And what we had was a map, a visual map of how everything is communicating in in the network. And
One of our customers literally sat there and looked at this map and was like, that line shouldn't be there. These two servers, they shouldn't be communicating with each other. Why is that line there? Can I just click this and prevent that from happening? And that is this amazing aha moment that literally shifted the company into a segmentation market where we're saying we have this tool, this amazing visibility tool that comes with all these security layers.
And what our customer really, really wants is to govern what they're seeing. They need the information to understand what's actually communicating, and they need the ability to shut it down. Let's do that. What is that called? How much is that worth? That takes you down a whole new route, and we ended up in micro-segmentation from there, which was an amazing moment and brought the company to that amazing success to eventually actually lead that category, by the way, of micro-segmentation.
Tye DeGrange (25:35.56)
Mm.
Avishag Daniely (25:47.094)
and become the leader post the post the Apple My purchase. Yes, it was amazing. So definitely the the most amazing aha moment within a journey. And yeah, that goes to teach by the way how important it is to listen to customers.
Tye DeGrange (25:48.966)
Wow. Wow.
Tye DeGrange (25:56.52)
Yeah.
And you you stumbled a
There it is. Yeah, that's the you stumbled across this basically gold mine through listening to customers.
Avishag Daniely (26:09.995)
Yeah, exactly. So and and the more people listen, the more you the more probability there will be for detecting those different aha moments because they can be very subtle.
Tye DeGrange (26:11.818)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (26:21.03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I love that. there's been some good ones that like that shared on this. really cool stories from the past and that you learn from and that you you aim to you know, repeat and and and advise people on. Obviously, you know, partner led growth is something we live in live and breathe. you know, we work extensively on on it with brands in SAS World and and
in our in our consumer world a bit. you're taking that on. That's a big motion for for you and you look at partnerships. How are you thinking about partner led growth?
Avishag Daniely (27:01.695)
Amazing. so maybe I'll start with my my my mantra. Okay. I think a lot of early stage companies or a lot of companies tend to think of partners as every partner should generate pipeline. And I think that that is a little bit crippling for an organization to think that way because not every partner is designed to do that. what I
My approach to partnerships is to be strategic about the goal that you have with each partner that you're working with. Some could be just to generate awareness, and then that's where you invest with that specific partner. Some could be to create your moat, right? once I'm running in a customer environment, I integrate with that specific partner, for example, right? I work there, I get to a position.
Where it's harder to take my solution out because I'm part of that operational process, right? With a technology partner, for example. So you could do technology modes as a key area with a partner. Another one could very, very specifically be for a pipeline. You can say these are system integrators. Their goal for me is to help me generate my pipeline. I will help educate them on the best ways to set up.
networks we will build the architecture together as to what those that needs to include and then their goal for me is to generate pipeline but not necessarily and be there if a customer asks them for us kind of thing right or even influence that decision within that and last but not least it's advocacy so partners could be just like a customer the the most amazing voice for you right so if we're thinking let's go back to our original buyer journey
Right. If we go back to our original buyer journey and you're thinking through that, during that spectrum choice phase, if you already have customer, a partner influencing that decision, being your advocate at that stage already as to why you need to introduce security early on in the process, as early on as spectrum choice, then you are already influencing the full journey of a customer there. So
Avishag Daniely (29:15.103)
they could just like any customer, they could be key influence. So if you're thinking about these four, right, or these, and they're more, by the way. I'm I'm throwing in my top four categories for partners. There are more there. But if you're strategic about each partner and their role for you, but you also are attentive enough to understand what they need out of this, right? What what can they gain, then it's a mutual partnership and you're both mutually aligned. And then from there, everything becomes really smooth sailing. If you think through
core vendor partnerships with us, right? We enhance their offering. We can give them a competitive advantage, for example, versus others in this domain if they bundle in security within their original offering, right? That could be their incentive. Well my incentive is to join the funnel as early as possible. So there's very different ways to look at different partnerships and be able to then map them accurately into what will eventually lead to your best success.
And I wouldn't treat all partnerships equally, I think, or give them the whole same goal. and by the way, from that, you actually measure them differently. If it's an awareness partner, they have their own metrics of what success looks like. If it's a pipeline partner, then it's down to revenue. If it's yeah. So each one needs to have their clear role. They might have several roles, by the way, but each one can have a clear role, and then you're able to actively measure them successfully.
Tye DeGrange (30:28.938)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (30:39.924)
Yeah, I I love there there's so many like, you know, fun aspects of partner partnerships, partner led growth. And I I mentioned this in a little bit, but there's like the economics, there's the incentives, there's the psychology, and I think, you know, it it like some of the other mantras that that we've talked about, you know, some of them sound easy, but truly putting yourself into the how does this benefit the partner.
What are their concerns, challenges, reasons for being, points of their journey? Like it's just a great call out and I I appreciate the the thinking around it. It's so important.
Avishag Daniely (31:24.203)
Yeah, I I can throw in an example there where if when we know what our partner is measured on for the next year, five years, right? And then we build our motion to align with that goal, right? So let's say we have a partner that it has a portfolio of different products, but they're banking on one of those products to be the major revenue source. If we are able to contribute to that effectively.
Right, and amplify that for them and still get what we need, then that's a mutually beneficial partnership, and everybody will will win. And everybody has the incentive to invest in it, right? Because a lot of the times it can end on paperwork. It's just let's put this in writing, but then nothing really happens. You put a logo on the slide, and then it doesn't actually end up taking you anywhere. But if you're able to understand your partner goals and really understand what they're being measured on.
and then build your motion to with your goals in mind, but map that to that incentive, then they will have the incentive to invest in it as well and everybody will be will be able to benefit from
Tye DeGrange (32:32.436)
Yeah, I love that. For for people who are less familiar in the cybersecurity world and the the IT world, what what are you know what are some understandings that like this is the risk out there for you? And how likely is that risk? And what can without, you know, scaring the heck out of people, maybe scare them a little bit, what what is it out there that they should be aware of to be like, hey, one layer protects you against these these bad things?
Avishag Daniely (32:52.086)
Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (33:02.688)
I'm just curious for folks that are really not as familiar and kind of just understand what it is.
Avishag Daniely (33:02.786)
Yeah.
Avishag Daniely (33:08.589)
Sure. So first I'll start with a network is a network. Doesn't matter what infrastructure it's running, if it's IP or cellular, it's a network and it's running your key elements that need to be run on that network that are part of your enterprise and are possibly key to your operations in most cases, you have to secure it. There's just no question about it, right? That's the basics today. You won't roll out a new network without setting your specific safeguards in place.
Especially if you're going to run a factory floor fully automated on it, or if you're going to be securing a grid. Whatever it is, it's you'll need to be able to set some some sense of security to that. So that's way before everything else, and I don't think anybody will disagree with that assumption in today's world. Now, if we're thinking cellular specific, what's unique to it is a few things. One, it's completely new technology for enterprise. They really aren't familiar with it.
There are whole new elements that are introduced into a private cellular network that create a knowledge gap. There's SIM cards. And a SIM card is not a device, it's an element that helps you connect devices to your network. And in most cases today, devices are not cellular ready. So you'll need an adapter. If you think of that automated guided vehicle, it will have a cellular router on it, because the automated guided vehicle is not cellular ready. It needs an adapter to connect. So if we're thinking about it from the enterprise perspective,
or the cellular network perspective, the network will see up to what the SIM card is connected to. But if that SIM card is in a router, what's behind it? Is anybody changing a device behind it? Which we've seen, by the way, in a port. A contractor went out into the field and literally removed a device from behind one of the routers to connect their own laptop so that they have connectivity. That's a contractor. It's an insider threat still, but it happens.
If you don't know what's happening, if you don't know that that happened, how can you possibly take action on it? So that's one element, for example. Other is just any traditional kind of security threat. Once somebody is in, they can move laterally within your network. They can reach your crown jewels in your data center because these networks are connected. So you need to be able to be aware of what's happening. You need visibility, you need control. But if we add another layer to it, it's the cellular specific layer.
Avishag Daniely (35:31.788)
Which is there are cellular threats. Just like there are IP attacks, there are cellular attacks. And you need to be aware of them and you need to be able to detect them and safeguard against them. So it's it's not to scare anybody or deter. I don't think today anybody is deterred by security being an element in when setting up a new network, cellular or other. They just know that there needs to be security within that, within that setup so that they can use the network effectively. it's
Just cellular unique, means to be able to protect against those specific threats.
Tye DeGrange (36:05.15)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. you've obviously had a wealth of experience when it comes to product, when it comes to marketing, when it comes to partner. What advice do you have for builders of those arenas and those that are trying to get into it, those that are trying to advance their career, what what things can you share that would help them based on your sage words of wisdom?
Avishag Daniely (36:30.957)
For those trying to enter the cellular domain or for anybody building their own startup?
Tye DeGrange (36:34.686)
I I think I think more, you know, the there's been a lot of you've had a lot of experience in, you know, like product building and marketing and partners, maybe maybe not hitting all those, but the what's the greatest hit that you want to share with people just wanting to learn from your experience?
Avishag Daniely (36:52.729)
I'd say remember that a company is a team. And it's a good success as an enterprise or as a team looks is actually possible when you're able to share and execute on it joint information effectively. So whatever information is coming your end from a customer, from a partner, make sure that it's reaching all the relevant people within the broader team, not just your own team, the whole company, and then
have that as fast as possible translate into action as a startup. Because what you want to do is be able to take action and if you need pivot very fast, but the if you're stale in use in translating information that you get from the field into action, that slows down everybody. So or and that slows down the company. So the faster we can operationalize the information, the better you are at executing, adjusting if there are mistakes, and eventually reaching your goal.
Tye DeGrange (37:51.583)
Yeah, I love that like mental agility is interest it's fascinating. so many good obvi so many good learnings, so many good experiences. Appreciate you. you know, taking us into a field that it is not as aware of and and you're still doing some really foundational principles of product, of building, of marketing, of of partner led growth. So it's appreciated.
Give us a little so kind of winding it down here into some of the the wrap up and the personal, you obviously shared your your artist background, which I am blown away by. I will have to look up and see. what do you have any readings or book recommendations for folks that wanna nerd out further or just just a good one that you'd suggest for people in the book category?
Avishag Daniely (38:43.425)
Yeah, sure. I think my classic, which I read several times, is Shogun. Oops. Good literature. Yeah. Definitely a good go to.
Tye DeGrange (38:51.636)
Yes. Yes. That is I so appreciate that. I am I have heard that in the last year it's popped up a couple times. So hearing it from you, I'm I'm now curious. I might have to I might have to bump it up my list a little bit. thank you. Any any dream trips coming up or summer plans or maybe like a trip
Avishag Daniely (39:06.218)
Okay.
Avishag Daniely (39:11.277)
Strongly recommend.
Tye DeGrange (39:19.668)
memory that you recall that you want to share, that you you suggest or you've had a good experience with?
Avishag Daniely (39:25.663)
I have the place that I need to go to is Cano Crustalis in in Colombia. It's call it the five colored river. there's specific two months a year where it's lit up by all these different plants and literally it's like spectacular and completely I'd say maybe a little a little bit psychedelic probably. So that's I have that goal yeah in mind and hopefully soon with the family.
Tye DeGrange (39:29.736)
Tye DeGrange (39:50.107)
Wow.
Tye DeGrange (39:55.06)
That. That's amazing. That question just keeps getting better. The last time I asked it, I was floored by my response. and then today I think you may have topped it with that. I like I'm like, what? I didn't know this existed. Okay. I will. I will. Avi, this has been so fun. Thank you for taking the time. If people want to reach out, learn more.
Avishag Daniely (39:55.925)
Yeah.
Avishag Daniely (40:12.051)
Google it. Look what that looks like. It looks amazing. Yeah.
Tye DeGrange (40:23.978)
Where's the best way for them to do that?
Avishag Daniely (40:27.075)
definitely LinkedIn.
Tye DeGrange (40:29.992)
Amazing. We're hoping to see you again here maybe one day or maybe in Boston. And thank you so much for ha coming on.
Avishag Daniely (40:37.836)
Same. Thank you for having me.
Tye DeGrange (40:39.627)
Take care.