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Episode Summary:
In this episode of the New Direction Family Law podcast, hosts Sarah Hink and Jenn Bordeaux are joined by Elizabeth Barbour, a seasoned life and business coach with 24 years of experience, and the author of "Sacred Celebrations: Designing Rituals to Navigate Life's Big Transitions." Coming from Asheville, North Carolina, Elizabeth shares her profound insights into the importance of rituals in marking significant life changes, particularly focusing on divorce. The conversation uncovers the therapeutic power of creating personalized rituals to process and celebrate the end of a marriage, alongside the grieving process akin to dealing with death and loss. Through Elizabeth’s personal stories and expertise, listeners are guided on how to create meaningful rituals that acknowledge the past, heal the present, and welcome the future.
Key Topics Discussed:
- The significance of rituals in navigating life transitions, especially divorce.
- Elizabeth Barber’s journey into life, business coaching, and her inspiration behind her latest book.
- Personal divorce rituals: Elizabeth shares her experiences with two divorces and how rituals helped her heal.
- Suggestions for divorce rituals include symbolic actions like walking the Great Wall of China and hosting backward weddings.
- The concept of a "familyversary" to maintain family bonds post-divorce.
- Ideas for involving children in divorce rituals to ensure they feel included and secure.
- The importance of closure, letting go, and setting positive intentions for the future.
Episode Highlights:
- Learn about the unique and empowering ways people have chosen to mark their transition from married to single life.
- Discover how rituals can serve as a tool for healing, closure, and even celebration amidst the pain of divorce.
- Understand the impact of divorce on families and how to create rituals that honor the changes while reinforcing family continuity.
Guest Contact Information:
- Elizabeth Barbour
- Website: https://elizabethbarbour.com/
- Book: "Sacred Celebrations: Designing Rituals to Navigate Life’s Milestone Transitions" available on Amazon and Elizabeth's website.
Closing Thoughts:
Divorce, much like any major life transition, brings with it a mixture of emotions, from grief and loss to relief and new beginnings. Through the lens of Elizabeth Barber's expertise and heartfelt advice, this episode invites listeners to embrace the healing power of rituals. By marking the end of a marriage with intention and grace, individuals can find peace and pave the way for a hopeful future.
Remember: Safety first! If any ritual involves fire or physical activity, take necessary precautions to ensure a safe and positive experience.
Creators & Guests
Guest
What is Ex-it Strategy?
Your no bullsh$t guide to divorce with experienced attorneys from New Direction Family Law and guests and professionals who have been there. Unfiltered discussions to help you move from victim to victorious and from bitter to better.
[00:00:00]
Sarah: You for joining us today, everyone. I'm Sarah Hink, one of the partners of New Direction Family Law.
Not with us today is Elizabeth Stevenson, my other partner and attorney at New Direction Family Law. But we have Jen. Bordeaux, our lovely marketing director and coordinator of the podcast and all things to help us keep this going. And she arranged for an excellent guest for us today. So who's our guest today?
Jenn: Yeah, absolutely. Elizabeth, similar to last recordings is stuck in or been super busy with emergency custody and actually lawyering, lawyering
Sarah: at the moment. Last time I wasn't here because I was stuck. Also in, I had yes, trial prep and being sick. I had like the month long cold of the [00:01:00] winter. Of course.
And mom life
Jenn: in mom life, yes. Yes. Something. So I am stepping in as co-host as best I can to fill these shoes. As Sarah said, I'm the director of public relations and all things podcast here. And today we have a wonderful guest Elizabeth Barber. Elizabeth, thank you so much for joining us.
Elizabeth Barbour: Thanks for having me.
Jenn: And she is joining us from the beautiful mountains in Asheville, North Carolina.
And we are located in Raleigh of course, and Elizabeth is joining us because she is, has been a life business to all the things, a coach for individuals in different capacities of their life for 23, probably going on 24 years now. And she has also written an awesome book that we are gonna talk about that brings her onto our platform today, talking about different transitions in life, which we could.
We'd be remiss if we didn't mention divorce as a transition in life. For sure. So Elizabeth, just tell us a little bit more in our audience that's listening a little bit more about yourself and how you got into this and so we can learn a little bit more about you.
Elizabeth Barbour: Okay, great. Thank you Jen. And thanks [00:02:00] Sarah. I appreciate being here. So yeah, I've been a life and business coach for, it'll be 24 years in August. Started out, back in the days when you told people you were a coach and they said, what sport? And I'm like, no, I'm not athletics.
Sarah: yeah.
Elizabeth Barbour: But over the years, my specialty has really developed into working with women in transition.
Which is really so many of us, right?
You know, we're either getting married or divorced or having children, or starting businesses or moving or caring for elderly parents. There's so many things that happen in our lives that cause for change in upheaval and transition. So the, the book that I just wrote is called Sacred. Celebrations, designing rituals to navigate life's big transitions.
Oh, here, wait, can I show it for your
Jenn: of course you can.
Sarah: Oh, I love that.
Elizabeth Barbour: available on Amazon and on my website, elizabeth barber.com. But so, but what's interesting about this book, it just came out a few months ago. The two most common chapters that people go to when they open it are the one on grief [00:03:00] and death, death and loss, and then divorce.
So I think that's why we're here today.
Sarah: a lot of times we, we think of a, of a divorce as like a death of a relationship, and it is in the same way a grief where you go through those stages. So they're very similar in that respect.
Elizabeth Barbour: Well, it's so true, Sarah, and I think what's interesting is that when a, a loved one or a pet passes away, we tend to have a funeral or a celebration of life. But when somebody gets divorced, that's not necessarily the case. So a lot of times it, we go into a divorce or a separation and there is no opportunity to honor grieve and, and maybe even to celebrate too, if, if it's a positive thing.
So that's why I think creating divorce rituals is so important.
Jenn: Why do we think that is, right? Like, whenever we do lose someone to, you know, the death of a loved one, we obviously, we, we grieve and we're sad, but we also very quickly wanna turn to the happy memories and the celebration [00:04:00] of their life and, and the time we did get to them and or get with them.
Excuse me, but when it comes to divorce, you're so right when you say that, it's all just like negative, right? Yeah. You may eventually get to that space where you can look back and say, oh yeah, we had some great times together, whatever. Right? But it doesn't really seem like that is surrounded around divorce as much.
So why do you guys
riverside_exit_strategy_raw-synced-video-cfr_the_ex-it strategy_0008: think
Sarah: that is? I don't, as an attorney, I actually get to see a lot. I think that the people going through a divorce don't share with other people around them with their family and friends. But a lot of times they'll dive into like their wedding, all of a sudden start telling me about their wedding and how beautiful, beautiful it was.
So it's like they feel comfortable talking to their attorney for whatever reason about those like. Parts of their relationship that were good and it wasn't all negative. Maybe because they're telling me all these negative things they want me to know or just someone to know that there was was good parts.
So I think it follows that whole cliche around divorce and how it's gotta be negative or people just didn't talk about it back in the day and, and just kind of opening [00:05:00] it up to this happens, this happens to people, you know, happens to people who you love. It's not all negative and people need support.
And also to celebrate this new chapter, whether that's celebrating the past or, you know, looking for the future.
Elizabeth Barbour: Mm-Hmm. That's so true. Yeah. I mean, as much as it's an ending and we need to grieve the loss. That comes with it. It's definitely a beginning. I've actually had two divorce. I've experienced two divorces and two very different experiences. You know, the first one was very traumatic and was just heart wrenching.
And then the second one was much more mutual and loving. And, you know, we're co-Parenting with Grace and we still do holidays together and go on vacations together. And so it's a completely different experience. So.
Sarah: yeah. So how did those experiences and any others that you witnessed through friends or family help you with this book in creating this?
Elizabeth Barbour: Oh, well, absolutely. I think just knowing that, you know, every situation is unique. You know, people, people might get divorced because one person cheats [00:06:00] on another, or they might get divorced because they simply grow apart or. You know, maybe one has a different career path. Maybe one wants kids and the other one doesn't.
You know, so there's lots of different reasons. And so as I was interviewing my clients and different people, I heard so many different stories about what, not only why they got divorced, but then what they did to honor and celebrate the actual separation.
Sarah: So let's hear some about that. I wanna know more about the rituals and the celebrations. Yeah.
Elizabeth Barbour: Well, do you wanna hear mine first or you wanna hear some of the ones? The people that I interviewed.
Sarah: Let's start with yours. Yeah. Let's
Jenn: start with yours. You're here. Yeah.
Elizabeth Barbour: Okay. All right. So so I'll com compare and contrast my, my first divorce and then the, the one with Eric, which is much more lovely and gentle. So so from my first divorce, I was married to my high school sweetheart.
And you know, we had been in trouble for a while and finally decided it was time to separate. Well, we didn't, we did not decide. He said, I want a divorce, I'm outta here. And I was angry and blah. So I was [00:07:00] living in Asheville at the time, actually, it was in 2001. And I, I met a woman who was a realtor and she said, well, you need to do a divorce ritual.
And I was like, what's that? And she had been divorced twice, so she kind of gave me some pointers on it. So I spent an entire day doing ritual at my home. I spent the morning, I started off by taking my tennis racket and beating the crap out of all of my furniture because at the. Because at the time I couldn't afford to buy new furniture and it all had been ours.
So I just thought, okay, I wanna get all this negative energy out, out, out, out. And so I beat everything then after I did that and kind of tired myself out and of course shed a lot of tears in that moment. Then I went around to each room in my condo and I lit candles. I lit candles for setting intentions about what I wanted to create in my life moving forward.
Then that evening I invited a couple of [00:08:00] girlfriends to come over and they brought me different gifts. I had asked them, I said, just, can you please bring me something to honor and acknowledge this transition? And so they brought me different things. One friend brought. Poetry. Another one brought some plants to symbolize growth.
Another one brought, she kind of created like a single woman's survival kit that included, you know, lipstick and condoms and you know, things like that.
Jenn: important things.
Elizabeth Barbour: You know, yeah. Things I hadn't needed in a while. So so yeah, so that was really sweet. And then that evening, actually I had a phone conversation with my now ex-husband.
He had gone to the courthouse that day. We were living in different states at this point. He was out in Seattle. And I had sent him a couple questions ahead of time and I said, can we please get on the phone and discuss these? And he agreed, even though it was, you know, a challenging divorce. But he agreed.
We got on the phone together and had a very lovely conversation. I asked him three things, you know, what did you [00:09:00] what did you love about our marriage? What are some of your favorite memories? What did you learn and what, what are our wishes for each other in our future? So we had this really, really great conversation.
So that.
Jenn: is good. So you can take something that started out. So with so much animosity and you know, and hurt and anger it sounds like there was a bit of a surprise element in there for you to then turn it around to that, to I just think that, that, that would provide so much closure in, in my experience and others that we've seen in clients that we work with or friends that I've known that have gone through this or even my own family, it. Sometimes I feel like people are looking for closure in a way that they're never gonna receive it. Yeah. And they're looking to that person to provide them with that closure. And so it sounds like you really took the reins here in saying, these are the questions I would love for us to discuss. And they weren't questions like, why did you do this?
Yeah. Right. Like, that's the kind of closure that people tend to try to look for. It was more of a what are the good things we can focus on and what do we wish each other from here? Because Yeah. What can we take from this [00:10:00] Exactly. Which I think is great. I think that would be a great lesson if there's no other tech takeaway from this.
Yeah.
Sarah: For sure. I'm more of like a burn down spirit, so don't, which I think a lot of people are. So you're gonna, you know, stop yourself from going in that direction and they think that's a good way to look at it. It's like, okay, wait, what am I gonna take from this situation? What am I gonna learn? What am I gonna carry forward into my next relationship?
Or just whatever life throws at me.
Elizabeth Barbour: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think being able to have an honest conversation because, you know, of course you didn't, you don't marry somebody to divorce them. You, you marry them thinking that you're, I mean, so you know that they're a good person and you love them and they bring joy to your life, and that's why you.
Chose to be together in the first And you've gotta go and reflect on that.
Sarah: At one point I was there. Yeah. Yeah. Although I have had clients be like, I asked them when did it start to go south? Like when did you know? And they said, the day after the wedding. Oh. Oh goodness. 20 years later, you're in the divorce attorney's office.
And it was the day after the wedding, like wow.
Elizabeth Barbour: [00:11:00] Wow.
Sarah: Maybe they, you know, it's hard to, when things get real bad, it's hard to remember the good things perhaps.
Elizabeth Barbour: true. And it's, that's a long time to be unhappy though.
Sarah: it is. Mm-Hmm. Yeah. And it's heartbreaking and it's really fulfilling for me to watch people go through that and go through this process, which can be very stressful and, you know. Demoralizing a lot of times, and you're paying a bunch of attorneys and you're losing money it seems like. But then like a year later, two years later, when you're all done with the court and the attorneys, you're in a much better place mentally.
And to see them smile and they look just like completely different people. Mm-Hmm. It's amazing.
Jenn: Mm-Hmm mm-Hmm. [00:12:00] And it's hard, it seems like for folks at the beginning of that and, and guilty as charged here. 'cause I'm an open book, went through a divorce si six, seven years ago, which is crazy. Time flies.
And it was so hard. Whenever you're in that fog, it's like, you're like, okay. Like I know supposedly everybody's telling me I'm gonna get better, but it is so hard for me to see that right now because I feel so intensely whether there was. You know, betrayal or the surprise factor, you know, not had, not even on your radar, you know, that divorce was on the table.
And so when you're hurting so bad and so [00:13:00] intensely everybody's telling you like, give it time, it's gonna get better. And you're like, I don't want time right now. Like, I just want it to be better. Yeah. I'm hurting so bad. There's just absolutely no way, but. It's true. People say it for a reason. You know, I mean, I look back and my, and I will never have those same people that I had in one room together at me and my ex-husband's wedding.
And for that I will forever be grateful. So to be able to look back and, and I'm, I really do hope that people get to, I feel like some people sometimes that might be easier or they thrive off of sometimes holding onto that anger that hurt. Mm-Hmm. Because it does take work to let it go, which can be really tough.
But, yeah. I just, my wish for everybody that goes through something like this is to get to the other side of that right. And really heal. And as
Sarah: an attorney, you have to tell my clients, you're not gonna find the closure and the, you know, revenge in court. Like that's, it's just not gonna happen like you think it is.
And you'll just end up making things worse for yourself and causing more stress and losing more money. So you really gotta think inward and how can you really heal from this? And like I said, it's not through attorneys. Yeah.
Jenn: [00:14:00] Yep. That's why we refer to mental health professionals all the time you heal
Sarah: through it and their support systems.
Yes. And book recommendations like yours, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth Barbour: Yeah. Well, yeah, and I think that that healing piece of it is so important. It, it is really easy to hang on to the negativity and the hard stuff, but if we're going to begin a new chapter of our lives, we have to properly complete. I. The previous one. And that's where I think ritual really helps. And then rituals throughout things.
So the other thing I'll compare is, so my my marriage with my, my, I call him my beloved Eric, which was my second husband, and we were married for 17 years. And he's an incredible dad, an incredible human. And we split two and a half years ago. And so now what we do, one of our rituals, especially in honor of our daughter, is instead of celebrating our anniversary.
We now celebrate a family bursary. And because that was the beginning of our family, I mean, even though she wasn't here yet you know, we got married in 2004 and she was born [00:15:00] in 2011. But we celebrate a family bursary and all three of us go out every October 23rd. And that's an important ritual that we have to maintain the family connection and say, you know, mommy and daddy may not be married anymore, but we are still a family.
It just
Sarah: yep. Yep, that's correct.
Jenn: Yeah. That's beautiful. I wish
Sarah: more people could do that. Yeah, I try to sprinkle that in every once in a while, but it's kind of hard to hear that when you're going through a custody battle.
But yeah. I try to remind them that co-parenting relationships, if at all you can preserve it, is gonna be the best for you and your kids.
Elizabeth Barbour: really is. I, think the question to ask is what's in the best interest of the children?
Sarah: right. Well,
Jenn: and that's what the law asks, right? Yes. Yes
Sarah: it is. It's hard. It's hard for people just with different personalities, people who struggle with mental health situations, just to really put themselves aside and realize that what they're doing, although they think it's in the best interest of the children, really seems to be more in the best interest of themselves or their feelings, what they think they feel.
So, [00:16:00] yeah. So share with us some other good rituals. I wanna hear some, yeah, we want some positive stuff here. Some positive stuff.
Elizabeth Barbour: Yeah. No, that's great. Well, two I'll write about actually that I had done research on when I was writing my book. There is a movie called The Lovers The Great Wall Walk, and it was a couple who had been married for a long time, decided to divorce, and so they each started at the end of the Great Wall of China and they walked until they met at the midpoint.
they met, they talked, they hugged for a little while and then they went their separate ways and started on their new life together.
Sarah: That's pretty epic.
Jenn: Yeah, that's, yeah,
Elizabeth Barbour: pretty epic.
Jenn: some, some travel and some planning there. Yes. How long is the Great Wall of China?
Elizabeth Barbour: I dunno.
Sarah: a big country. I don't even know how far it's been. I was like, do you start out
Jenn: at 6:00 AM See you in two days. Like, I don't dunno.
Elizabeth Barbour: No, no, no. I it's like a month or, yeah.
Sarah: We can bring that to the mountains, right?
Do the Appalachian Trail. There you go. Wherever in the I don't know, West Virginia.
Elizabeth Barbour: Yes.
Sarah: [00:17:00] Maybe we'll just
Jenn: start at one end of downtown Raleigh and meet you at the other one. Like, yeah, that, that cool. That's definitely a guess a romanticized kind of. Yeah, idea of it, but, and so
Sarah: people who aren't like super deep and feely like me, like I would never do that and walk far and share feelings in the middle.
So there certainly there's some other like less, you know, emotionally intensive rituals out there.
Elizabeth Barbour: Absolutely. Well one, so when I had my book launch party here in Asheville back in November, a woman came to my party. She was a friend of a friend, and she shared that when she got divorced, she had a backwards wedding. So she and her bridesmaids all put on their dresses. So she put on her wedding gown and they put on their bridesmaids dresses.
They went to the church where she got married. And they walked out of it backwards then went and had a little party.
Jenn: That's different. Yeah.
Sarah: I like the party part. Yeah. Yeah.
Jenn: [00:18:00] I've heard of other things too. I mean, we've seen folks that will do like photo shoots. Mm-Hmm. Just divorce instead of just married or engagement shoots, you know, they'll do divorce shoots. I've definitely heard of divorce parties or I've seen group of ladies will get together and do like a divorce.
Not a bachelorette party, but like a divorce party and go off somewhere, you know? Yeah. And celebrate that. And that those can be all fun. There is something to be said too you mentioned like lighting some candles like a burning ritual in less of a burn it down kind of way, but you. Listen, if you need that burn, burn that wedding dress, burn the dress, burn, burn, a photo album, whatever you need to do.
Also just like a burning of like letting go. Like I've heard it in like yoga classes, like at the beginning of the year and stuff. You set an intention, you write it on a piece of paper, you burn it and you let it go. Yeah, I've done that for a breakup, which was just really cathartic. There was no animosity of like, screw you, I'm burning, burning you down, kind of thing.
And more of a. You know, maybe write something, a letter or some whatever words, like, thank you for your time together, the lessons [00:19:00] learned. You know, write that on a piece of paper and then burn it. It's just kind of like that finality enclosure, which I think could be really cathartic. It was for me.
Yeah.
Sarah: Yeah, I like that too. And we both enjoy yoga, so Yeah. Always something to look into. Getting your, your physical self back after a breakup or divorce is always helpful. And channel that energy. Outward. Yeah. As
Jenn: much as you can. Yeah, definitely releasing some of it. I in a not so kind way similar to your tennis racket on the couch situation was when I was in the midst of, of everything with my divorce and feeling very intense feelings and just anger and hurting.
I was like, I want something else to break so that my heart will stop breaking. Yeah. I know that sounds very dramatic, but I like it. That's true. And so I had, I'm a per, I don't like to hang on to things. I didn't have too many things left that, were shared, but I did find this particular vase from like my bridal shower or something, and so I just went out into my garage and I just threw it on the concrete ground so that it would break.
And I was like, okay, well now I gotta clean [00:20:00] this up. But that did feel pretty good. Yeah.
Sarah: Moment of relief. Yes.
Jenn: Yeah, absolutely. What about any other of the rituals either that you share with the divorce piece or even with like the death and grieving piece? Because I would imagine that some of those same kind of.
Either celebrations, remembrances, or letting go could be applied to the divorce piece as well.
Elizabeth Barbour: Absolutely. Well, we actually just in my coaching group today, I have a, I run a coaching program called. Solid ground and it's for women navigating transition. So they might be going through a divorce or the death of a loved one, or a move or a job change or whatever. And we were actually just talking about burning, so I'm glad you brought that up, Jen, because I think burning stuff is very cathartic.
And you know, it really transmutes the energy. It's saying, okay, it was in this one form, but now we wanna change it. So to shift from, you know, the fiery anger and frustration and rage, even if you will, and then transmute it to peace and acceptance and you know, just moving on. So, [00:21:00] but the other thing we talked about in the coaching group today is I told them about doing some work with white roses.
So in the opening of my book so my mother passed away. My adoptive mom passed away in 2016, and as she was dying, I worked with a shamanic practitioner who is now my teacher because I am now a Shamonic practitioner too. But at the time I wasn't. And she coached me through working with White Roses. Linking to them energetically and then taking them down to the river near where I lived.
I was in Texas at the time and releasing them in the water. And so each time I did that, it was about summoning the grief and the loss and the anticipa the. Anticipation of what was coming, you know, of mom's passing and then releasing it into the roses and then releasing it into the water to let it go.
And I did a series of that three different times and it really, really helped for me to [00:22:00] process what was coming so that then when she actually did pass away, it was. I wouldn't say I don't a relief maybe, but you know, I had some peace and acceptance with it because it wasn't such a shock 'cause I had worked through it.
So then interestingly so I buried her in Florida about three weeks later, next to my dad who had died 25 years prior. And, but my, one of my girlfriends in Houston said, Elizabeth, you really need to do something here. And I said, well, people didn't really know my mom here. And they, she said, no, it doesn't matter.
People wanna come 'cause they wanna show up for you. And so I did an impromptu white rose ceremony and I brought all the women into my home and gave them white roses. And we walked down to the river the same place I had released those roses for my mom and. Kind of told them her life story. And we talked about all of our mothers, we talked about our relationships with moms and grandmas and aunties and just the important role that moms play in our lives and in society and in our communities.
And [00:23:00] then we walked back to my house and we had a party, you know, we had wine cake and, you know, all my mom's favorite foods. And so it was really a celebration of, of life. You know, people were witnessing me, but they were also honoring, acknowledging their mothers, you know, some of whom had already passed.
Some hadn't yet. Some were sick. So it was this real communal experience. So.
Sarah: Yeah. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us.
Jenn: Yeah. I, I, as you were speaking, I'm like, okay, I could, I could see if, you know, sometimes when a couple shares mutual friends, right? And then, and they go through a divorce and it's like, okay, well the friends are kind of like. Do you pick a side or if you don't really wanna pick a side, you stay Switzerland.
And sometimes it's kind of like you're walking on eggshells when you're around each other. Mm-Hmm. Because, you know, there's the elephant of the room, of the person that used to be there. That's not there anymore. But I can see like something like that being cathartic, right? Like you invo invite friends, maybe new friends you've met, you know, past the separation or divorce.
Some of the joint friends that you had and you know, kind of have the same experience. Maybe like address the elephant. Like let's all just share something like a great memory we all had [00:24:00] together and then just like let it go. Yeah. Like let the release that, that energy or you know, address that little elephant in the room and then party always cake and, and wine.
Elizabeth Barbour: I always taking mine.
Sarah: Always. That's how you get people to come too. Like, oh, there'll be wine. Yeah. Some ritual with me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That is beautiful. That's great. And I think a lot of our listeners can take a lot from this episode and think to themselves what's gonna help them you know, form rituals in their next transition in life, whether it be a separation, divorce, ongoing custody issues.
Or just starting a, a new chapter in their life, whether it's a job or what have you. Yeah,
Jenn: absolutely. And so Elizabeth, with your book, you mentioned that people can find it on Amazon and I'm sure you have information on your website as well. So go check out her book, sacred Celebrations, and then if they're interested in working with you as like a coach as well, through these different transitions, how, what's the best way for them to get in contact with you?
Elizabeth Barbour: Yes, through my website. I have a coaching tab on the website and they can sign up for a session with me. [00:25:00] 15 minute, if they just wanna get to know me, we can talk about if we might be a good fit together. One of the services I also offer as a coach is, I call it Sacred Celebrations coaching, where I can actually help people specifically design a ritual.
So if any of your listeners go, wow, I'd really like to design a divorce ritual, but I don't know what to do. It's just a series, it's like two sessions and a couple emails together, but to help you create what it is that you want to do for yourself. So that's, that's something that folks can do as well.
Jenn: yeah. Nice. And could, with those rituals you're designing them or you know, with the book to, do you have any examples of like, I would just think about folks that would have now be single parents bringing in the kids into the ritual, kind of like you and your, your ex-husband do with co-parenting with your daughter.
Elizabeth Barbour: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's really important when you can include the children. That's so important to do that. Yes. And we can certainly talk about what that would look like for folks.
Sarah: Great. Well thank you so much for joining us today. Yeah, thank you Elizabeth. And anyone listening for your ritual involves fire of any kind. Have a fire [00:26:00] extinguisher. Absolutely, absolutely.
Jenn: And as our ritual here on the podcast
Sarah: when we close out. Yeah. Aint that some
Jenn: shit?