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No state has fallen further than Kansas in America’s Health Rankings. We used to be 8th in 1991.
Why did we slip so far down in the rankings? The answer might surprise you; it’s based on a leadership challenge.
At the Kansas Health Foundation, our bold vision is to make Kansas the healthiest state in the nation and to do so, this movement must be powered by Kansans in positions of authority and influence to shift Health outcomes.
Starting with the launch of the 2025 publication, Leading Health, written by President and CEO of the Kansas Health Foundation, Ed O’Malley, this podcast aims to break down key concepts of this leadership challenge and actionable ways that we can work together to make a real impact on Health in Kansas.
In each episode, Ed O’Malley, and Senior Advisor at Kansas Health Foundation, Susan Kang, will highlight a chapter in the book and discuss with Kansans who are actively engaged in expanding our definition of Health.
Leading Health is an invitation to move the needle on Health in Kansas, and we invite you to join us in leading the way.
Ep08
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[00:00:00]
Ed O'Malley: Welcome back to another episode of the Leading Health Podcast, where my colleague Susan Kang and I walked through this book, leading Health, how You and 30,000 [00:01:00] Kansans Help Communities Thrive. Susan, we have covered a lot of ground so far. We're going to dive into chapter. Eight today, which is about our assumptions and how leadership is about assumptions, understanding assumptions, challenging assumptions.
But here's where we've been. Part one of the book, the first five chapters, we're all about the slide. In the Kansas Health Ranking and the role of the 30,000, that's the targeted audience for this book, and frankly for this podcast, the role of the 30,000 in helping Kansas climb those rankings, part two.
Has been all about the fact that it's really not a health challenge. It's a leadership challenge. It's a leadership challenge to help Kansas go from 29th in the rankings, which is what we were when we wrote the book to number one, which is where we plan Kansas on ending [00:02:00] up in this. Last few episodes, we've covered some really important ground about leadership.
So we, a few episodes ago we talked about how leadership is about mobilizing others to make progress. Mm-hmm. On daunting challenges. So just holding the position doesn't mean you're leading anybody, in my opinion.
Susan Kang: Right.
Ed O'Malley: Mobilizing people to make progress. Means you're exercising leadership. We've talked about in the last few episodes the difference between adaptive challenges and the type of leadership needed on those and technical problems, and that leading the nation in health.
Stopping the slide and the health rankings is surely an adaptive challenge. So we've had covered a lot of ground, but more ground to come. And of course, the big reason we're doing all of this is to help the 30,000 have a conversation. About the importance of Kansas stopping the health slide, beginning the [00:03:00] climb, and getting all the way to number one.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Chapter eight overview
---
Susan Kang: Ed, thanks so much for setting us up. To be able to dive into chapter eight. So that background was super helpful. So today's chapter is, is entitled Closing the Health Gap is a leadership Challenge because our existing assumptions. Fail us. Right. That, that is chapter eight. That's what we're gonna dive into.
And, and in this chapter, I, you know, I feel like we are exploring how assumptions control us more than we control them. I mean, it happens all the time, unconsciously, unwittingly, it's like, you know, and we do it just all the time. And it reminded me of sort of, unconscious bias. It reminded me of stereotypes.
Mm-hmm. As in stereotyping. And when we make assumptions, that is what came up for me as I was reading that chapter. Nice. So, okay. But exercising leadership to close the health gap though isn't about having the answers, it's about surfacing the assumptions. It's about staying curious around the assumptions, right.
And to help mobilize [00:04:00] others for the long term change. In our case, getting to number one in the nation.
Quotes on assumptions
---
Susan Kang: So, what I loved about this chapter specifically are two quotes and I'm just gonna go ahead and talk about 'em right here. So, Kevin Bomhoff was a former KLC colleague. Hi Kevin. If you're listening.
So, and he said unstated assumptions. Become premeditated resentments. I think that really, I had to sit there and think about that for a while, and he's absolutely on the money with that. And really, really, I, I, I loved it.
Ed O'Malley: It's an amazing quote and Kevin is an amazing individual and it's, it's getting at something that's really important that when you're trying to mobilize people to make progress.
On anything, but especially something big, deep, daunting, like leading the nation in health, we, we have to understand the role assumptions play right. In our actions.
Three common assumptions
---
Ed O'Malley: Like, like we, we, we talk in the chapter about how there, there, there are three big [00:05:00] assumptions that we notice the 30,000 making all the time.
Mm-hmm. When it comes to health. Mm-hmm. Okay. The first assumption is that they understand who needs to be involved. Like, who needs to be involved in conversations about improving health of people in Wyandot County or improving the health of people in Kansas? Like, who needs to be involved? Right. And, and often by the way, we assume the wrong people.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: Going back to earlier chapters, we assume it's just the lower h. Health people. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And we leave out the capital H health people. Right.
Susan Kang: Yeah. I mean, I think we assume that we have the right people. We, and it's the assumption that we have to
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, exactly. Really, you know, it's the sec second big assumption that the, the chapter digs into.
And I don't forget about the second quote. You wanna lift up? Yeah. I just wanna lift up these assumptions. Second big assumption that the chapter explored explores is that the 30,000 often assume that. That we know what needs to [00:06:00] be done.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: We assume, well, maybe it's because, well, I'm the CEO of an organization.
Mm-hmm. Or I, you know, was in the state legislature or whatever. Because of our station, we assume what. Needs to happen, right? And often on deep, daunting vaccine challenges. We don't know what needs to happen, but in the third big assumption that the 30,000 make all the time when working on big, deep, daunting adaptive challenges.
Quick fix trap
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Ed O'Malley: The third big assumption that the 30,000 make often when attempting to exercise leadership is that we assume we know when. A fix should fix something. And what we're really getting at there is we assume we can fix something faster than we really can.
Susan Kang: Mm mm-hmm.
Ed O'Malley: So, quick
Susan Kang: fix.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, quick. We assume there.
We assume there is a quick fix and in our ongoing search. For the quick fix, we often just prolong the opportunity to [00:07:00] get to progress. But Susan Hop, you got a second quote you
Susan Kang: wanna mention? Yeah, I do, but I, I'm, I can't wait to dive into that question about the quick fix first. You know, first long term.
Okay, so the second quote that I really love the most is one you use in the book, which is the devil is in the assumptions, right? The devil in the, the devil might also be in the details, but the devil is in the assumptions. And I, you know, who knew that? This chapter would make me think so much, you know, deeply around assumptions and, and the fact that we make them all the time and how they control us more than we control them.
So, I, I mean, I, this is, I think this is a great segue into really diving into this, this chapter.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. You know, a few, a few more thoughts and then we'll get we're, we're gonna be joined by Kenny Wilke again. He joined us. I know I'm a few episodes ago, excited to have Kenny back again. Of course. Kenny is with the University of Kansas Health System former chair of the Kansas Board of Regents, longtime member of the state legislature.
A mentor of mine when I was in the legislature, he served as [00:08:00] chair of the tax committee, chair of the Economic Development Committee, kind of, kind of. You know, kind of tip of the spear for major important initiatives across the state in various roles that he's been a part of. So it'll be great to get him into this conversation.
But you know, this idea, I mean, this chapter of all the chapters, this is the one that I feel is like really heady. Yeah. You know, like it's. It's readers, listeners, we're kind of asking a lot of you in this chapter because we're, we're talking about something kind of nebulous. And one of the things we need to do in this conversation is try to make it more, more explicit, you know, more real.
Technical vs adaptive example
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Ed O'Malley: but I, I just wanna give a quick example that we talk about in the book and about like the power of. Of assumptions about the role people need to play. And so we talk in the book about like if there's a technical problem.
And a few episodes ago we talked about technical problems versus adaptive challenges, [00:09:00] but if there's a technical problem, let's use a health example, like a broken bone or a tumor.
Okay. Like what we need from those groups are certain things, like we need experts to solve the problem. Like the bone is broken. We need the expert that the doctor, surgeon who's been trained, need the surgeon, right? Mm-hmm. In how to, like, set the bone mm-hmm. To like, to do that work. Okay. Like that's what we, so we assume that's what we need from the experts.
We assume that what we need from stakeholders is to like stay outta the way and be patient. Mm-hmm. So like, my kid breaks their arm. What, what the system needs from me is just like, let the doctor do her thing. And not get in the way. Right. Right, right. And, and we assume that what we need from authorities, you know, like the hospital executives for example, is just to like, give the experts the doctors, like the, the, the person who's gonna set my kid's bone back give, give them resources, right.
Make sure they have a safe space to do that. The right operating room, the necessary support. [00:10:00] So it's all pretty simple, like experts solve the problem, stakeholders stay outta the way and be patient. Authorities give the export experts resources. But one thing we're trying to. Do here is to say, Hey, we can't assume that's what we need from experts, stakeholders, and authorities.
When the challenge is more adaptive rather than technical, right? So like in the challenge, and, and by the way, if we assume that's what we need, if we assume that on leading the nation in health, on stopping the slide in the health rankings, what we need are experts. People who've gone to school for a long time to learn about health, to go solve it.
And we need stakeholders, like all of us just to stay outta the way. Right? And we assume that the job of authorities is just to make sure that those experts have have some resources. We're gonna fail. What we need is to disrupt those assumptions and we'll get into those disrupted [00:11:00] assumptions. With Kenny Wilke when he joins us.
Should we get him up here on the, on the set with
Susan Kang: us? Yeah. Well, I think you just upended the surgical tray here. And it's gonna be, I mean, I kind of look forward to having a messy conversation around assumptions.
Ed O'Malley: Let's get messy. Kenny, let's get you up here.
Kenny joins the conversation
---
Susan Kang: Hi Kenny. I'm so happy to have you here for, great
Ed O'Malley: to be back.
Susan Kang: Yeah, great to
Ed O'Malley: be back.
Susan Kang: So we're now talking about chapter eight, right. And Kenny, you are the quintessential example of a member of the 30,000. You know, in your capacity in many different capacities that you've helped. Okay. So you're the perfect person to be talking about this, so I'm really excited to ask you my first question here.
Okay. You ready? I'm ready. All right. So the book talks about the importance of intentionally surfacing assumptions in real time, and not doing that can make things so much worse. So making the health gap much wider. Okay. Can you share a moment when you recognized an sort of an un unstated [00:12:00] assumption and whether yours or someone else's Okay.
That was blocking progress.
Kenny Wilk: So great question, and I really, it's good to be back first of all. Yay. Thank you, Susan. Thank you, ed. And boy, what a great, great topic to dive into with assumptions.
Water debate lesson
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Kenny Wilk: So to answer your question directly I can actually go back to a very specific point that I think really illustrates it'd be 1993.
It's my first year in the legislature, didn't I? I was starting to realize how much, I didn't know how many assumptions I had made that were incorrect, but one of the biggest. Was about water. Hmm. Water.
Susan Kang: Hmm.
Kenny Wilk: We have the first great floor debate and Ed will know what I'm talking about. The legislature has massive debates about water about every two to four years.
Mm-hmm. I'm from eastern Kansas. I'm like, why are we debating water? Only to find out my friends from western Kansas. [00:13:00] It's a life and death issue. I, I'm like, where are they going with this? Mm-hmm. My lack of empathy, my lack of understanding was insulting to 'em. And by the way, water is not a partisan issue.
In Kansas and you know this Ed. Yeah. I mean it is very much geographic, but in my mind for that moment, that's when I really realized, man, I gotta backup and, and really reevaluate how I'm thinking about things. At the time, I didn't think about it as assumptions, but that's really what it was. And Ed I think we had to stop maybe for a second.
And let's talk about assumptions. About assumptions.
Ed O'Malley: It's a very meta topic
Susan Kang: that that is so meta,
Ed O'Malley: so so can
Susan Kang: say more.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Yeah. Say more real quick. Before you do, I just wanna say, I remember my first debate about water and also being like, flabbergasted. Like, like 'cause, 'cause my assumption was it wasn't a big issue.
Kenny Wilk: Eastern Kansas.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I was from Eastern [00:14:00] Kansas. Also, my assumption was, and I, it wasn't a conscious assumption, but like looking back, I, I know my assumption was this wasn't a big issue. It wasn't that big of a deal. Why are we spending so much time on it? Why are these people misguided and what is important?
And a a colleague of mine took me to a, to the side colleague from Western Kansas, and he said, ed, here's what you need to understand where I come from. Whiskey is for drinking water, is for fighting. And it like that, he was kinda like tongue in cheek a little, like, you know, a little smile on his face, a little smirk, but his point was, was real.
And, but it took that person taking time to pull me aside to help me question my assumptions. And what this chapter is really about is, hey, 30,000, we need you to get there faster, right? So let's start, keep going. Kenny, this assumptions about assumptions. So very meta listeners, hang with us during
Kenny Wilk: this.
Defining assumptions
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Kenny Wilk: All right, so let's talk about what I mean by that, what does an assumption mean to you, ed? What? What did an assumption mean to Susan? What does it mean to me? So I [00:15:00] always, when I ask a question like that, I always think it's good to go to the DI dictionary, look it up. So let's talk about how is assumption defined assumptions, something you accept as true without proof or full evidence?
Hmm. Something you accept as true without proof or full evidence. Second, A, a belief or idea taken for granted, generally used as your starting point for discussion, debate or argument. All three of us could pick any topic, and the chances of us starting at three different spots would be about a hundred percent.
Mm-hmm. So first of all, I think we have to understand that Ed, our assumptions, though, they're critically important and you do a wonderful job of continuing to pull that out. If you're gonna be in a position of authority, a position to lead, you really have to focus on that now.
Slow Down to Go Far
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Kenny Wilk: Understand, just, I think we're almost better [00:16:00] off to start out believing that we're all starting from a different starting point.
Yeah. And just recognizing that. Mm-hmm. You have to do that first.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Well, so I mean, it gets back to. Like it, you have to go slow so you can go fast later. You have to go slow so you can go far together. Right?
Balcony View on Assumptions
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Ed O'Malley: So taking the time to think about, well, we're all in this situation, whether it's whatever the situation is and, and, and the community, Hey, listener, wherever you're from, your community is wrestling with some kind of capital H health issue right now, and.
The, the, what often happens is we try to go really, really fast to solve the problem, and that then doesn't give us the time to, the language I would like to use is get up on the balcony and ponder, how's everybody assuming? What are their assumptions they're making about this situation? You know, which of those [00:17:00] assumptions are helpful?
Which of those assumptions are maybe not helpful? What are my assumptions on this? Why do I hold those assumptions? Are those assumptions useful or not? Like, we're not doing that often enough.
Kenny Wilk: I, I couldn't agree more. And uh, so Ed, I, I'm gonna use an example or two in this. You've heard this more times and you probably wanna think about, but it certainly ended up.
Serving me and what, what progress I was able to make in the legislature and other careers I've had. This is a lesson I learned early on.
New Decisions Not Mind Changes
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Kenny Wilk: So if we think about assumptions and we kind of accept that they, they are a set of beliefs and if we recognize that almost all of us are starting from a different point, the then that means we're gonna have to make some change.
Right. And. Here's a fundamental practice that I always tried to exercise in the legislature. I didn't ask people to change their mind. I found that was fruitless, Susan. It just [00:18:00] to ask you to change your mind because you, you, you had a belief and you held that I had to allow you to make a new decision
Susan Kang: mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: Based upon new information to make a new decision. Based upon new information. Now that was hard for me and Ed, if we go back to the tax committee, you can remember we spent a lot of time on education, a lot of information hearings. Why did we do that? It was my belief that you had to kind of build a base of knowledge and anybody that's en engaged in any kind of a complicated issue, if you don't have more than one wow moment to say, wow, I, I believe this.
I didn't know that Now. I'm making a new decision based upon some new information that I receive. Mm-hmm. If we're not willing to do that, we're all gonna operate with the current assumptions that we have and we're [00:19:00] gonna continue to get what we've always got. Yeah. So if we want to do something different, I think we actually have to start with our beliefs.
Be open to new ideas and making some new decisions to move forward.
Using Authority to Create Space
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Ed O'Malley: Susan, I know you've got other questions you want us to dig into, but I, I've just gotta play on this example 'cause Kenny, I should have wrote about it actually in the book, 'cause what you just described. So you used your power. As chair of the taxation committee, back when you were in the Kansas House of Representatives, you used your power, your one of the 30,000, you used your power to have the early part of the session be informational sessions.
About the issues we are gonna be talking about throughout the session in that committee, and what you just said is you did that as a way to help people, like create the space for them. You didn't ever use these words explicitly back then, but I Now that you're talking about this, I know what you're doing.
You used. That [00:20:00] experience to give people the space to begin to like think about their assumptions, to try on different assumptions based on what they're hearing and learning. It was really kind of an exercise and helping people go slow, analyze the way they're currently thinking and how they might need to be thinking in order to make more progress.
It's a great example of like what those in. Authority can do to help people name their assumptions and think about the assumptions that, that they're holding and, and, and feeling.
Susan Kang: Yeah. And Ed, what you just did also is to name what was happening. So sometimes things are happening and progress is being made, but people don't really realize that that is what is happening.
But what you just did and the way that you described Kenny's information. Informational hearing. 'cause I know the legislature sometimes holds informational hearings, which is really awesome. And to name the idea that they were surfacing their assumptions, even if they weren't necessarily thinking about it as such, you know, and learning new information [00:21:00] and new decisions to Kenny to what you said, new decisions based on new information.
Why Leaders Jump to Solutions
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Ed O'Malley: But like, like think about how often a member of the 30,000 uses their power to bring people together.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Ed O'Malley: And they bring people together and they start the conversation around, okay, what do y'all think we need to do to solve this problem? So they're like, they're jumping to like solving the problem
Susan Kang: the Yeah, to the solution.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah. Or, or they bring people together to present their idea for how to solve the problem. This happened recently you know, in a situation that I was a part of in the state where a group of wonderful well-meaning people brought people together and in essence presented. Here's, here's a really big plan and we are thinking it should really go forward.
And it was all baked. It was all baked, and there wasn't time to really do any of this. Kind of get up on the balcony type stuff that Kenny, that you would do with your committee. It ended up kind of crashing and burning. [00:22:00] And so it happens so often where members of the 30,000 don't like create the space for people to have conversations about things like, like what are your beliefs?
Why do you believe what you believe? What, how do we juxtapose these different beliefs against one another in a way that could help us figure out the right way forward? So
Susan Kang: I'm sorry I, and you might help me answer this question. Do you think that's in part because there is this expectation some norm, that the members of the 30,000 need to behave in the way that I just described and that is what we are trying to challenge.
Kenny Wilk: It's, it's, it's something I'm comfortable talking about, 'cause I spent so many years in the legislature and Ed and Susan, you both know. I, I love working with newly elected officials, but I frequently continue as I work with new folks. I, I talk about it in this sense and I'm, I want to invite the 30,000 to think about it.
'cause I think we can use this context. For what we're trying to do to drive to number one.
From Campaigning to Governing
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Kenny Wilk: I, I used to say it's, you know, it's [00:23:00] one thing to talk about the issues when you're sitting around the kitchen table at the family dinners. It can be a lot of fun. We can bat it around and, and, and talk, and then you go have dinner.
It's a different situation when you're campaigning to talk about the issues. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. There's a fundamental shift and anybody that's been a candidate knows that if you're fortunate enough to get elected. And you actually make it to the seat where you have the opportunity to govern and really make decisions now that are gonna matter.
That is entirely different. Those are three different phases. It's a different way of saying, Hey, you, you gotta step back. You know? I can, and Ed, I know you can too. You know, you campaigned on an issue. You, you get to Topeka and you have your first hearing. You learn something and you go, oh my gosh, I wished I would've known that before I started espousing all these things that I said about the issue.
I didn't know that. [00:24:00] Well, you have to accept that's new information that that, that's why it was always so helpful to me to be able to say, I'm not really changing my mind. I'm not asking you, but I'm making a new decision. But we all have to do that as we. Take on the health gap, that's what we're gonna have to do.
If we stick with the same assumptions that we've been sticking with, I'm not sure we're gonna make progress. We're gonna have to learn some new things and do that together.
Technical vs Adaptive Challenges
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Susan Kang: So on the concept of technical and adaptive mindsets. That we talk about in the, in the book. How do you discern whether a challenge in your work requires efficiency and precision versus investigation and experimentation?
Kenny Wilk: Well, again, those are KLC concepts and I've had the opportunity to be. Exposed to them for a number of years and, and I just want to say it, those are really, really powerful concepts.
Mm-hmm. And, and it's really important to understand that I'm [00:25:00] delighted as the years have passed in the circles that I get to, to run in how the nomenclature has changed. And if we wonder if K C's efforts have made a difference when I'm sitting in a meeting, name your town, name your space, whether it's Kansas City or Goodland.
I frequently hear the term technical versus adaptive and a lot of the nomenclature and it just, just delights me. I. I wanna thank su Susan, that I've had the opportunity to practice that. But, you know, I wanna, I wanna share, I think, you know, I've had more more opportunities, more swings at the plate, maybe more years of experience than than many.
And I have found the, the older you get, the more experienced you have. I, I can be pretty quick on, on the technical side. Mm-hmm. And because of my experience, I can generally always find the expert [00:26:00] that we need.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: I also am privileged to be in a position, I usually have the authority to engage that expert.
Mm-hmm. I, I have to understand and appreciate the fact, not everybody. Has that ability, right? They either don't have the background, the information, the knowledge, education they need about knowing a technical or they don't have the network.
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: I've been privileged to do that. I gotta be careful because I'm frequently guilty of jumping.
I'll believe it's a technical problem when it's really not a technical problem and you have to involve more people. That's really my challenge, but. It's one of my favorite questions, Joan, you'll remember from the legislature, and I used to say, do you really need this bill to fix a problem?
Do you, could you fix it yourself?
Susan Kang: Mm-hmm.
Kenny Wilk: And I used to challenge the agencies can, can you sit down? Do you really need to change the law frequently? That would be a technical problem that, that they could fix more so than not. But sometimes, [00:27:00] it just takes a lot of understanding and learning, and it is an adaptive problem, but it's really critical to be able to, to, to determine those two and, and, and make the right decision on how you're gonna approach it.
Ed O'Malley: Yeah.
What Authority Must Do Differently
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Ed O'Malley: Kenny, I, I wanna, I wanna play with this, Susan. I wanna keep this part of the conversation going just a little bit. Mm-hmm. This idea of like, when work requires efficiency, when it requires experimentation, and, and one of the things we write in the book. Kenny, I'd love your reaction to is we say if it's a technical problem, like what we need from those in authority, like the 30,000 is just to give experts the resources they need.
To solve the problem, like give the experts time, money, space to solve the problem and keep all the stakeholders calm. Right. So going back to the broken bone example, like if the CEO of the University of Kansas Health System, you know, is walking by my, the, the, the operating room where my kids' broken bone is, is being operated on and, and, and my wife and I are freaking out, right?
I, I know what [00:28:00] Bob Page is gonna do. He's gonna show empathy and he's gonna let us know. Look, I have the best trained surgeons in there and the best support crew and, and your son, you can be guaranteed is well taken care of right now. He's gonna calm our fears and he will have already made sure the experts have the resources they need.
That's what you do on a technical problem. That's not always easy work to do. On an adaptive challenge like improving capital H Health, for example, what we write in the book is what we need from the 30,000. What we need from authorities are things like to raise the heat on the system, to disclose the problems, to protect those who share hard truths.
To bring, use their authority to bring experts, other authorities and stakeholders together to wrestle with the problem or problems in a collaborative fashion. To remove barriers [00:29:00] so stakeholders can do their part of solving the problem. It's a very different way of working, but if we have authority and we assume the way we're supposed to work on an adaptive challenge is just like the way we're supposed to work on a technical problem, we'll screw things up.
Rather than engaging the stakeholders to work on Capital H Health, we'll say, oh no, it's all gonna be okay. Don't worry, we've, I've got the best experts over here and they know all they need to know about capital H Health and they're gonna solve this for you. But they can't, right? 'cause Capital H Health requires all of us.
So, that distinction of what we're asking people, we're asking people to question their assumptions. About what their role is on capital H on adaptive challenges rather than the technical ones.
Kenny Wilk: Yeah, I, it, it's an excellent point and, and I, I wanna share what I think is a simple example, but I'm gonna suggest that for the 30,000 that are listening, most of the issues that we're gonna need, the 30,000, they are adaptive.[00:30:00]
And a adaptive is hard. It, it's, in my opinion, it's much harder than the technical, and it's not always clear. In fact, the hardest ones are not clear at all. You gotta, you just gotta keep working to bring some clarity. And what I have found over the years, when it's the hardest, you just gotta keep moving.
You gotta keep moving and, and so often you're moving sideways. But you're still moving. But you know, I think part of the challenge, ed, is it's, it's hard for people. So, so the 30,000 maybe understand that the, let's hope that they do the difference between adaptive and technical, but you know, we gotta.
30,000. Gotta help other people understand it.
Sidewalk Story of Adaptive Work
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Kenny Wilk: So I, and I was telling you this story, I got frustrated one time. I was working with a group when I was still in the legislature. We were talking about work and the idea of work and who was doing what. and I, I don't know why I just pulled this idea out of the [00:31:00] air and I said, lemme, let me ask.
So Susan, lemme ask you a question. You see a sidewalk? Being installed and constructed in your, how, how do you define work around that Sidewalk and I, and I did this a lot in schools and, and oh my goodness, you know, they, they were quick to answer the question, you know, I see the guy digging the, and putting in the planks and pouring the concrete, and they described all the things about installing.
Sidewalk. And I say, well, okay, that that is all work. But I said, what about the people that planned the sidewalk? What about the people that had to go secure the funding? What about the people that had to work with the city, the community, the neighborhood? What about that? What about the design, where it went?
Well, they, they didn't view that as work.
Susan Kang: Hmm.
Kenny Wilk: I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. If you didn't do that part [00:32:00] of the process, you wouldn't have people pouring the concrete, creating those jobs. So that was a picture that I tried to paint you. You can't see. The planners out there, you can't see the people that knocked on the doors and, and worked with the, the neighbors, but it collectively, it all comes together to pour in the sidewalk.
But it was only because somebody took on the adaptive challenge. First and got that solved, that we were able to put that, that, that sidewalk now that generations will enjoy.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Kenny Wilk: But it, we have to understand that adaptive work has to take place,
Ed O'Malley: you know, the and, and the assumption like you're in essence bringing up that the people you do that little example with, they assume the work is just what they see.
Kenny Wilk: Just
Ed O'Malley: what they see and there's so much more behind it. Makes me think about in Roland Park, Kansas a, a city that I used to live in, and it was part of my district in the legislature. There was a [00:33:00] mayor in Roland Park 20 years before my time, who believed deeply that every kiddo in Roland Park should be able to walk to school on a sidewalk.
And over this mayor's time made sure to engage the community and to secure the funding in a way that every child ended up by the time that mayor was done, being able to walk to school on a sidewalk. But like that, like the, the, the pouring of the concrete is technical, the mobilizing the community to work together to achieve that vision, which was a big deal for a little city like Roland Park to install that many sites.
It was expensive. It was hard. That is the adaptive stuff, and that mayor's ability to use his authority to help people make progress on capital H Health is really remarkable.
Susan Kang: Yeah.
Takeaways and Next Episode
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Susan Kang: Thank you so much for sharing those stories. I mean, it's these stories that people are gonna remember and I, I, I think they're, they're really awesome and they really hit the points as well.
So we're, I can't believe this [00:34:00] conversation's gone by so quickly. So we're now at the stage where we're gonna talk about some takeaways and I, and I'll go ahead and start, and then Kenny, you next. So. I mean, there's so many things that could be takeaways from, from our conversation, which is really great.
But one of the things that I wanna highlight again for what, what struck me the most really, again, is the shining a light on our assumptions. And so I would invite our listeners to work really hard at identifying at least one assumption. In the next meeting that you're having, and it could be a family meeting, it could be a work meeting, whatever it might be.
It could be a community meeting. One assumption that you're making and see how your participation in that meeting changes as a result of the assumption you just identified. Kenny.
Kenny Wilk: Well, there, there's a lot to unpack in this chapter and there's a lot for all of us to understand about assumptions and, and, and something we didn't spend a whole lot of time.
But, but something I really take away that's in the chapter we talk about the key groups, [00:35:00] experts, authorities and stakeholders. And if we're one of the 30,000, the chances are. We fit in one, two, or three of those categories for whatever issue that we're working on. And I, I would invite all of us to think about, we're not gonna be in all three all the time, but think about the issue that you're working on and where you find and be comfortable with that and understand.
I I, I love the way that's laid out because I would also challenge all of us. To really exercise our creativity. And what I love about bringing together the experts, the stakeholders, and those that have authority is what I call the hybrid thinking. You, you know, you bat the ideas around, and that's when you start really having the ability to learn these new things, which can begin to change your assumptions, which then will allow the progress that we need to make.
Ed O'Malley: Love this conversation. Kenny, it's great having you with us. We talked in the last time you're with us that we want to spend a little more time talking about the [00:36:00] University of Kansas Health System and the transformation that has happened there. We will get to that the next time you are with us.
It's a great story, and the next time you're with us, we're gonna be talking about how leadership is risky. And I think the journey that you all have been on at the health system the last 20, 25 years is a great example of taking risks on the. Behalf of improving health. To me, this conversation about assumptions is a little wonky.
It's a little heady, and it's so important. And I would just ask listeners to try to be more conscious about the assumptions you're making, especially around who should be involved with solving a problem, what needs to be done to solve that problem, and. The timetable for how that progress should take place.
As in don't fall into the belief of quick fixes. Take the time and get it right. Kenny, thanks for joining us again, Susan. Thanks as always, and we'll see everybody next time.
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