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Real faith. Real life. Hosted by Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown of Sandals Church, The Debrief Podcast goes beyond Sunday conversations—diving into the questions, stories, and struggles that shape who we are. Thoughtful. Honest. Unfiltered.
Welcome to the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown, where we take your real questions about faith, the Bible, and culture, and give you honest practical advice you can trust. We're glad you're here. Now let's get into today's episode.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Hey, guys. Welcome back to The Debrief. We are back with pastor Jonathon Millen. Thank Thank you so much for showing up. I feel like...
Matthew Stephen Brown:So here's why I wanted you back. I feel like it just going so good. And then we had to cut it because I think you had places to go. Oh, thank for having me back. A Tell little bit...
Matthew Stephen Brown:We we got your backstory, but tell us what you do for Sandals now.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Definitely. Here at Sandals, I'm the campus operations pastor, and so I I serve our campus pastors, what we call as our campus operation leads, and our kids leads, youth leads, and a lot of the ministries that happen on our campuses, launching campuses, and honestly, I walk into a campus if there's a toilet that needs to be plunged, I'm there to plunge a toilet. If we need an extra host, if we need somebody to pray for somebody, if we need strategy, I get to be a part of all the different things happening at our campuses. I lead a central team who's over campus operations, and we support our campuses to grow and to to disciple people and do whatever needs to happen.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And you're... Even though right now, you're overseeing my son. Mhmm. What's that for?
Jonathon Millen:Ethan. Yeah. That's youth. Okay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So, you know, just keep giving you jobs.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. So, we we keep adding our campus support team overseas, basically, a lot of a lot of ministries that happen in our campuses. So, yeah, Ethan's at Redlands now.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Incredible. Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, we have a campus in Redlands.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I was talking to Brian Burson, and he said, yeah, people attend Sandals Forever and they don't know we have a campus in Redlands. I'm like, look, man. So we have a campus in Redlands. We have East Valley, which is basically Mentone. We're not allowed to say that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We have Lake Arrowhead Mhmm. Minifee, Moreno Valley, Woodcrest, which is in Riverside, Palm Avenue, is Riverside, Hunter
Jonathon Millen:Park, this is Riverside, I'm thinking Anaheim. Anaheim, Azusa, Fresno. Yeah. I think you said Minifee.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I did. Yeah. Did I miss any? I think that's all of them. So there's...
Jonathon Millen:I'm going through my head.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. There's 14 total, so if we skip one, but just know, man, we're we're... If you're anywhere near any of those places, come to a campus. It's so important that you don't just watch online, but you engage with the community if you're able. Obviously, some people, because of sickness or work are unable, but if you're able, do that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So let me ask my charismatic friend. This is our resident charismatic.
Jonathon Millen:Resident charismatic.
Matthew Stephen Brown:How did the Holy Spirit series feel for you?
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. I've I've enjoyed it. I mean, we've had several teachers too, which is always really cool to kinda get the different perspectives, different backgrounds, but I've loved I've loved being able to jump into a very balanced approach of the Holy Spirit. This is for you. This is for everyone, and it's real right here at Sandals.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Last week, man, pastor Alfredo preached an incredible message.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, I've I've I've heard
Jonathon Millen:it a few times, and every time I was on my seat, it felt like I was learning something new, thinking about maybe even, like, things that that I've gotten wrong in the past or the upbringing of of of being a Pentecostal. Okay. I'm like, man, I I needed to hear this. I need to balance this out a little bit here. This is something that I've been taught, but it's not scripture.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Mhmm.
Jonathon Millen:It's just I've been taught this or or or somehow I've I've thought this was it Yeah. And I need to go back to the word of God and really get it right. And so I I think it's been very not just balanced, but like pastor Fredo talked last week about like, hey, like lean in. If this seems a little weird, sometimes it is, lean in a little bit and see what God does there, and I'm grateful to be at a church that's willing to say lean in a little bit. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Amen. So I think it's been a really, really cool message for for each campus.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So let's just provide some clarity real quick on tongues. Yeah. Because some people in our church did receive the gift of tongues when we prayed for that. Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But it's not something that we teach people by saying repeat after me. Can you provide clarity for that? Because that's really important because how God speaks through you is not necessarily how it needs to sound through someone else. So can you just kinda teach us on
Jonathon Millen:that? Yeah. I mean, I I think that that's one of the biggest red flags. Right? If you're going up and somebody's praying over you with the Holy Spirit immediately when they say repeat after me
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Then that sounds like it's them, not the Holy Spirit. Right. We talk about that a lot with people who are running down the, you know, the the stage with flags
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Tambourines and stuff, as you're taking everything off the Holy Spirit and putting that focus on someone else. And so I think that's right there in the flesh again. And so I I think that when you're filled with the Holy Spirit, of course, can be praying over you. Yes. I know that as I've prayed over people to receive the gift of...
Jonathon Millen:I mean, any any, you know, gift of the Holy Spirit, but speaking in tongues, I've I've told them, like, it might be weird. It might be different. If you're going after this, if you're seeking it, then go after it. Lean in. Mhmm.
Jonathon Millen:But never to repeat after me. This ain't about me. It should never be about someone or their words or their utterance. The Bible never says that. And so I'm grateful for that perspective here and that we keep saying it out loud just in case people do come in from other backgrounds that we're just letting them know right up front.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Is what we're doing here.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So... I... You know, so you said it you said it might be weird. So kind of the way that I've operated with the gift of tongues, I don't have it. When it feels weird to me Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I tend to feel like that's not the Holy Spirit.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:There was a time... I shared this on Debrief. Tammy and I... I don't know if you know this, but we got insomnia in, Ireland. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And we didn't sleep for eight nights. And we were preaching at a Pentecostal church, and I love pastor Tom, pastor Mike. They're great guys, but they're full gospel charismatics. Yeah. And they said, would it be okay if we prayed over you?
Matthew Stephen Brown:And, dude, I'm like, do whatever you gotta do. Like, I... You know, when you're desperate, I'm like, I I don't care.
Jonathon Millen:We need
Matthew Stephen Brown:a miracle. And they prayed in tongues over us, and it was not weird. Mhmm. It was beautiful. Oh, wow.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Now, there wasn't an interpretation
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But I felt like they were they were inner... They were speaking to God for me.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And it felt very beautiful. Now I did say that was great. I do need to see a doctor. Yeah. But...
Matthew Stephen Brown:And we did. Thank God. Right. They they got us Ambien, and I I I know some people have to take it. I am not a fan.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We took that. We did not sleep, but we felt like we were on drugs.
Jonathon Millen:Then you felt weird. For twenty four hours. No. Then then I felt really
Matthew Stephen Brown:really weird, and and we just decided we're gonna go home, and praise God, we got home and we slept. I... For anybody that struggles with insomnia, I just... My heart goes out to you. I I had never had that experience before.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Eight nights, I didn't sleep.
Jonathon Millen:That's horrible.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so it was... I was hallucinating. It was that bad. Okay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So we're in this series called the Holy Spirit, and Jonathon Millen is our resident Pentecostal. We look to him for all things Holy Spirit. I I love I love... Well, we have we have a couple of you guys on staff, and I love that because Sandals is a big tent church. We're all about Jesus.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus built big tents. We want people in for all kinds of different backgrounds. And so we left up on the last last episode, and you said something that you thought was common knowledge. I... I've been I've been a Christian for thirty five years.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'd never heard of my life. And so your... What you shared was that one of the reasons you pray in tongues is so the devil doesn't understand what you're saying, but God does. Yeah. I had never heard that, but listen to me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It made so much sense to me. I literally was like, oh, okay. That makes sense. And so talk to me about that. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:I think that was one of those things that I've really tried to wrestle with through scripture too, because I don't want it just to be something that's been handed down to me from generations of of, you know, Pentecostal parents and Pentecostal grandparents, which I have. But, yeah, I remember waking up every morning before school to the sound of my mom speaking in tongues Wow. Throughout the home, throughout the home every single morning. And she had her time when she'd go in an hour or two before we wake up, and there were six of us. I'm one of six.
Jonathon Millen:Okay. So, you know, big house, lots of rooms, and just vaulted ceilings, and she just remembering hearing her praying and her teaching me that, you know, as I as I, you know, was, you know, was filled with the Holy Spirit myself in a way where I I did have the gift of speaking in tongues, I remember that teaching of the accuser and the Satan always in our minds, always trying to get us to Mhmm. To, you know, do wrong, obviously, sin, steal, kill, destroy. But this thought of being able to be filled with the Holy Spirit and speak in tongues in a way that that the Holy Spirit was interceding on my behalf is what the scripture says. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:And so... And and was always taught that that I love that. That Satan can can hear our words. He can even hear, obviously, our English, our prayer, and he is, you know, over the dominion of this earth. Mhmm.
Jonathon Millen:But there's something about when you speak in tongues that that interceding on your behalf is straight to the throne of God. And so I've I've loved that. I've always... You know, when I pray in tongues, it's always a private thing. I'm not this crazy, out loud Pentecostal running around trying to say, look at me.
Jonathon Millen:But the idea is when I don't know what to pray for anymore Mhmm. And that might be like a horrible situation. There's been horrible situations where something bad is happening in front of me, and I can't put words to it, but I do know I have this gifting that I can be... That I can see the Holy Spirit interceding on my behalf.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Now let me ask you a question. So I didn't I didn't tell you I was gonna ask this, but there's something that you do that all my Pentecostal friends do that I love
Jonathon Millen:What is it? That...
Matthew Stephen Brown:So so here's what we do at Sandals. So here's how like my tradition, right? So we say Jonathan's gonna pray. We all bow our heads, we all close our eyes, and you are the only one talking. Now, you're charismatic.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? So so here's what I love about charismatics. When you guys pray, everybody's praying. And it's not... When it's done right
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's beautiful.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So so talk to me about that. So, like, because you'll
Jonathon Millen:do it at ten funny. Yeah. When I say...
Matthew Stephen Brown:When I say, okay. Hey, let's pray. I always know where you are in the room Mhmm. Because you are chiming in verbally Mhmm. And I love I love
Jonathon Millen:it. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I love it. Yeah. So I think a lot of us, like, we just we just think, okay, let's all be silenced and let's focus. You're like you're like participating with us, and it's it's so great. I love that.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But people who haven't grown up in a charismatic Pentecostal church,
Jonathon Millen:like... Like, who's praying here? Yes. Is that person praying?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. They didn't
Jonathon Millen:ask you to pray.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. But we were just at our
Jonathon Millen:That's true.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I gotta tell you, one of the pastor's wives got up and just shared heart wrenching
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Brokenness. And so she is in Naples, Italy, staunch Roman Catholic. Yeah. They became Christians and started a Protestant church, and her family cut them off. Wow.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And she shared, my dad has dementia, he's dying, and I miss my family. And she just started weeping. Mhmm. You know, the cost of following Jesus. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus said whoever's lost mother or brother for my Right. Like and pastor Randy Bazette got up there and said, let's just pray for her right now. So he interrupted her talk.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It was awesome. I love charismatics. Somebody's talking. He interrupted and said, can we just pray over her right now?
Jonathon Millen:Oh, yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so when he did that, there's a room full of 50 charismatics. Right. And I would say Ark is mildly charismatic. They're not like Sure. Crazy Pentecostal.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Sure. But the sound of everyone praying
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Was beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I love that.
Jonathon Millen:We take that when two or three are gathered together, and we really do it. I love it. I think... Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:And for me, it's just like, you know, I'm... If if one person's gonna pray, that's that's a beautiful moment. Let's all sit to one and hear one person. But if I'm really struggling and if I'm in her situation Yeah. And there's a 100 people in the room, I want a 100 people praying for me.
Jonathon Millen:I don't want you just listening or reading. I want you to pray for me in a way that the Holy Spirit is telling you because it might be different than how it's telling the 100... Other 100 people in this room.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Love it.
Jonathon Millen:But, yeah, that that is a funny thing. Yeah. I don't even notice that anymore.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So so... Here's what I think here's what I think we should do. I think we should do it right now. Mhmm. I want you to just be you Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm gonna pray over Yeah. All of our listeners. Mhmm. And I want you to just... I want people to hear this.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's so beautiful. So here's what I'm gonna do. We're we're in this series called the Holy Spirit. I think when this releases, we will be done Mhmm. With the Holy Spirit.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But we still want you to be full of the spirit. We still want you to pray in the spirit. We still want you to receive the gifts of the spirit. So So I'm gonna pray that over people. And I just want you to do what you do so they can hear what I get to hear when we pray together.
Matthew Stephen Brown:K. Ready? Let's pray. Heavenly father, I pray in the name of Jesus, God, right now for all of our listeners, whether they're driving in a car, God, they're sitting at home or they're watching us on YouTube. I pray right now, Holy Spirit, that you would speak to us, and God, help us to understand your gifting and your power and your glory and your grace, Lord.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Fill us right now with your presence. We pray this in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. So that's what he does whenever I pray, and I love it.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And you do that.
Jonathon Millen:And we don't even know what's happening.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You don't even do that, but here's here's what I feel like. I feel so encouraged. When you're doing that, it's not distracting, I feel supported. And you are listening to what I'm saying in real time, you're giving me this feedback. And that's the beauty of charismatics that, you know, there's there's there's just something.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So I was at the White House, I think last summer, and I I didn't post it, you know, Donald Trump is a controversial figure. Some of our listeners love him. Some of our, you know, people can't stand him. And what I would say, there's moments I love him, and there's moments I can't...
Jonathon Millen:Rest of us don't know what to do anymore. So...
Matthew Stephen Brown:But I was there at the White House, and we were asked to pray over him and his administration, and I was really conflicted. What to pray, how to pray, what to say. There was a charismatic pastor, and I will say her name afterwards, because she's controversial.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:But I am telling you, when she prayed, I heard God. It was it it was like a rush of power hit us in the White House. And it was so much so, our heads are bowed, our eyes are closed, I raised my head, opened my eyes.
Jonathon Millen:So who is this?
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I was like... Like the Holy Spirit just hit us. And I wasn't a big enough deal to be one of the ones selected to pray. Gotcha. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:So I was kinda JV mega pastor. But I I had never experienced that in a room full of pastors. It was interesting to me, it was a woman. These big name guys, you have this lioness that steps up. And she...
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I'm telling you, it felt like a rush of wind.
Jonathon Millen:Really?
Matthew Stephen Brown:It was powerful. Mhmm. So it was it was a beautiful thing. So I I love I love love love Mhmm. When charismatics pray around me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Used to be distracting because I have ADD, and I feel like the Lord has given me grace to just appreciate that, and I did some cognitive behavioral therapy, and I would encourage everyone that has ADD to do cognitive behavioral therapy. It changed it changed my life. So I just wanted you guys to hear what Jonathon does. I wanted you to experience that, feel that when it's done right. So when we're praying over this woman, left the Catholic church, wants to see Naples, Rome, Venice come to Christ.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Right? Right. I mean, people have the structure of an ancient version of Christianity. They have no personal relationship with Jesus at all. A matter of fact, I would say most Italians are very unreligious and have a very hostile relationship to the church even though they would all say I'm Catholic.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So they don't pray, they don't attend, they're not reading their Bibles. They... Probably many of them would say they don't believe, and so Italy is probably the most unsaved Christian nation on Earth.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so they're there, and just the pain. But I just want you to imagine 50 people in the room like Jonathon doing what you just did, and it was so inspirational and encouraging to And so one of the things that charismatics do so well is they talk back to the prayer. It's beautiful. Yeah. So I wanted them to
Jonathon Millen:hear that. Well, you think about the Holy Spirit too.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Like, the
Jonathon Millen:the idea of Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to be a guide and comfort, the Paraclete, right, to come alongside of us. Yeah. And so I've never thought about that even in those moments of prayer. If you think about the holy spirit connecting people in one motion together, speaking different prayers, but all over one person, like, is a powerful moment. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So when I was first pastor, I was in Huntington Beach, and we were a Baptist church, and we tried this, and we all went in corners of the room, and every... It was so awkward. I And was like, we need
Jonathon Millen:a charismatic guy. We need a charismatic guy. That's really funny.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Okay. So we left chatting about Jonathon's personal gift of tongues, the ability to pray against the accusers. So what is CS Lewis's famous book where the demons are talking to each other?
Jonathon Millen:Screwtape letters.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's interesting. CS Lewis is not a charismatic, but he writes an entire book and they are listening to our prayers. Right. Right. I mean, that's what the book is about.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Trying to strategize, figure out how to trip us, intervening our thoughts Yeah. Literally writing letters back to each other about how to get believers to fall. Yeah. And so I thought that was interesting that, you know, he would have been Anglican...
Matthew Stephen Brown:Not Anglican, the Church of England Sure. Which would be a very bible centered church. And what I mean by that is not that charismatics aren't bible centered, but but not experiential in terms of the spirit, and yet led to write a book on this whole idea that in this spiritual warfare
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The enemy can hear what we say. So I... That was... I wish you could have seen the light bulb pop on my head when you said that. I was like, oh, okay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I I I get that. And so I just would say, for those of you who received the gift of tongues in our church when we prayed, use it for that. Don't let someone coach you or teach you or repeat after me. The... Speaking in tongues to me is echoing back what the spirit is saying to you.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So one of my good friends who started speaking in tongues, Raised Like Me Baptist, he said, I hear these words in my head when I pray. Mhmm. And I said, Sam. So he was hearing these words over and over again, that he didn't understand. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And I said, say those words.
Jonathon Millen:And
Matthew Stephen Brown:he didn't he didn't under... When I say words, he didn't know what they meant, so sounds. I'm hearing these sounds, and I said, that's an utterance. Uh-huh. So so...
Matthew Stephen Brown:You were praying for somebody else? Yes. Holy Spirit. To me, that's the gift of tongues. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, in the book of Acts, nobody sat somebody down and said, you know, now do this. It just happened. That's right. And so I think it's a beautiful thing. So Romans eight twenty six, and the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness.
Matthew Stephen Brown:For example, we don't know what God wants us to pray for, but the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed with words. And the other thing I love about charismatics is you guys, I think, pray more often and longer than churches that don't have that. And so Paul says, pray without ceasing.
Jonathon Millen:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, some of the best pray war... Prayer warriors I've ever met come from charismatic backgrounds. Why why do you think that is?
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. I was... It's funny. Just asked that question. Was thinking, why is that?
Jonathon Millen:I just I just remember being brought up in a way that the idea of praying without ceasing was almost like we were taught how to do that. So as we as we read the Bible, as we were in church, as we were in kids church, like, we actually, we'd have lessons on how do you pray, and not just how do you pray real quick and, you know, sum it up and roll, which is which is... Prayer is about relationship with God. There's no, like Yeah. This is the right way and this is the wrong way.
Jonathon Millen:But for some reason in the Pentecostal church, it's like, how do you pray without ceasing? Meaning, how do you go all out? How do you Yeah. How do you how do you use your gifts that the Holy Spirit's given you?
Matthew Stephen Brown:And if
Jonathon Millen:I love that. We believe that we've all been given different gifts and not everybody has the gift of tongues and not everybody has the gift of interpretation or prophecy or what that is. If you get all those people in a room together and you start going around the room, you can pray without ceasing, and you can go around and around and around, and I think they were just taught that from a young age. But then there's people who come into the church who are brand new, unchurched Christians. We talked about a lot of the fastest growing churches in America are these Pentecostal churches, more charismatic churches.
Jonathon Millen:But I I think it is the power of the Holy Spirit. Yes. It's something that makes me want to seek him out every single day. Mhmm. There's so much mysticism out there right now from crystals and, you know, all the all the different things that that I feel like our next generation's going after.
Jonathon Millen:And it's wild to me because I'm like, that's so fake, and this is so real Yes.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Jonathon Millen:Which is why I think young people are gravitating toward, I want more of this because it's real. It's not rocks and this. The creator of those things also gave us a spirit to say, you... I can connect your soul and your spirit to me every single day in this way, and I think praying out of... You know, without ceasing comes out of that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Man, I love that. I love that. Alright. Let's get into today's questions.
Matthew Stephen Brown:This is from Quentin in Bedford, Kentucky. Quentin, I have never heard of Bedford, Kentucky. I've been to Louisville, but that's it. Can you explain what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Is it unforgivable?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Well, let's let's talk about it in context. So Jesus is performing these miracles and he's doing these amazing things, and the accusation against him is that he is doing this by the power of Satan. So in the Bible, it will say the power of Beelzebub, that's a contemporary name in the first century for Satan. So that's the... You know, we don't use that language anymore.
Matthew Stephen Brown:We talk about the devil, we talk about Satan. Lucifer would be another name, but nobody in English says Beelzebub. So that's just a word for the devil that they had two thousand years ago, but it means Satan, it means devil. And what they're saying is the power by which he does what he does comes from Satan. And so what Jesus says is listen, say whatever you want about me.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so let's go back to why is the Holy Spirit, so important. He is essential to, the birth of Jesus. So the Holy Spirit comes upon Mary, so he's a spirit, right? And he is is what puts Jesus in her womb. So he's a part of Jesus' life from his birth.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Then we see his baptism where he's commissioned for ministry. So he's baptized by John, he comes up out the water, the Holy Spirit descends upon him like a dove, He does everything through the power of the Holy Spirit his entire life, so we need to remember that. And then he dies, and then the Bible says he's raised by the power of the Spirit. So the same Spirit who put him in the womb of Mary, listens, pulls him out of the tomb Mhmm. In Jerusalem.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So it's all about God's spirit. And what they're saying is you do miracles, you do all these works, you have all these special powers, but it is Satan who's doing this. And what he says is you can be forgiven of anything you say about me, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit. So in context, anyone who sees God working clearly knows it's the Holy Spirit and refuses to acknowledge the truth of God. There is no hope for that person.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that's what Paul's getting at or we don't know exactly who wrote Hebrews, but those who've tasted of the Spirit, those who've seen it and have walked away, there's no hope for them anymore. And so I think it's this idea, you know, I I was talking with this individual in our church who's so close to giving their life to Christ, So close. And at the last moment believed her doubts rather than her beliefs. And we all have to do that. And I just...
Matthew Stephen Brown:I'm like, oh my gosh. In that moment when you sense that it's God and you know that it's God, make that moment towards... Make that movement towards him because you may not get another movement. Now, what I think blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is saying, and this is why we have to be very careful criticizing other ministries. I think it's real easy easy to point fingers and say they're right and this is wrong, and unfortunately, churches do this all the time.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's not God. Well, the Holy Spirit moves in ways oftentimes that I don't understand and and and I may be uncomfortable with, but it is the movement of spirit. So I have be very, very careful saying something is not of God because that's what was said of Jesus. And what he's saying here is if you're rejecting that I am doing things by the spirit of God, there's no hope for you. You cannot recover from this.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so some pastors have said it's the rejection of Jesus as Lord and Savior, but he says, say whatever you want about me. It's saying that he is not moving with the spirit of God, that the anointing on him is false. And what I would say is that that that that technically is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Certainly, there are other things that we could do, reject Jesus. You know, the Catholic church taught for some time that suicide was an unforgivable sin.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't think that's true. There's one verse in the Bible that says we should not pray for those whose sins are unforgivable. Unfortunately, John doesn't tell us what those are. He just kind of says we assume, and so people try to fill in the blanks. So I would say that's specifically what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was, and that's why I would say, and again, I'm not saying people are committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, but let's be honest.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Some of us in our church was resisting what the Spirit was trying to do in the series. This isn't God. I'm gonna put my walls up. This isn't my tradition. Just let me read my bible and let my faith stop there.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So we all can resist the spirit. Blasphemy of the spirit is saying, this is the devil. So... And that is unforgivable. What what do you think?
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. I know. I think you're right on. I think the the idea I think about is rejection. Yes.
Jonathon Millen:It's the rejecting of... I just remember growing up as as a Pentecostal though, man, like, this is so huge in the Pentecostal church, the idea of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. And, like, if I remember you couldn't, like, you couldn't joke. Like, that... The idea, like like, biblically, I think everything you just said Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Is what I had to, like, go and find myself. Yeah. This is what it actually means. It's almost like taking the Lord's name in vain. It's like, is it just screaming out Jesus, or is it, you know, these other things speaking on behalf of Jesus or whatever?
Jonathon Millen:This was that for a Pentecostal kid like me. Mhmm. That if I ever joked, if I ever, like, made fun of, like, speaking in tongues or said a joke out loud or said, you know, whatever, my parents, like, they... My my mom, especially my grandma, like, would flip out. Even still today, if, like, as an adult, if I ever say anything that comes close to joking about the way that someone spoke in tongues and how it sounded, my mom will say, uh-uh, I'm not playing around with that.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I appreciate
Jonathon Millen:I'm almost 40 years old. And I and it just it just... It still makes me giggle because there's... She's so serious about this scripture of what it means to this unforgivable sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. But but in the end, I mean, you take it into context, it's you see it, you feel it, it's in front of your face as as they all witness these these miracles, and then they turn around and said, because, I mean, and even in that scripture, the idea is like they're all gonna start following him.
Jonathon Millen:What are we gonna do about this? So then they lie and they put it back on, that has to be the power of Satan. It can't be the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. And so that that to me is where that rejection, that unforgivable, like, what what else can we do here?
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm. Like, you've seen it, you've heard it preached, Jesus himself is in front of you, and you are totally reject the power of the Spirit.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. And so what I would say is, what... Maybe not blasphemy of the Spirit, but but ultimately, why will people be judged? Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I think the Holy Spirit has moved in your life, he's convicted you of sin and of the truth of Jesus and what you need to do do, which you're saying is rejecting and you're saying no. No. I'm not going to do that. And what I would warn everybody is that impression of the Holy Spirit will not be the same power at all times. Respond...
Matthew Stephen Brown:When you when you hear the Spirit... This is what the Bible says, when you hear the Spirit today, do not reject him and stiffen your necks like they did in the Old Testament. Listen today when the Spirit speaks because those are precious, beautiful, for some of us rare moments, and we need to respond to God in that. It's interesting that you talked about growing up as a kid, you wouldn't even mess with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit or take the Lord's name in vain. So I'm in Leviticus, everybody pray for me, during my quiet time every day, and it's been it's been rough.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, there's a lot of tough scriptures, but yesterday's passage where it was where the the young Jewish man whose mother is Jewish and father is Egyptian Yeah. Blasphemes the name of God. Mhmm. And so it says, he said the name.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So I don't know if you guys know this, but Jews will not speak the name of God. They say Hashem Right. Which is literally translated the name. Mhmm. And so it says in Leviticus, he blasphemed the name.
Jonathon Millen:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And they go to God to see what they should do, and God strikes them dead.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Like, hey, no, no. I said.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And so we need to have reverence for God and who he is. And, you know, God loves you. Jesus is friendly, but he is the king of kings and lord of lords. And we've lost we've lost reverence in our culture.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, like nobody reveres office. Nobody reveres people. You know, they used to call pastors reverend.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm. Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So think about it. Our title was revere. Mhmm. That's just not the case. And unfortunately, it's because of the behavior of many pastors who didn't live lives worthy of reverence.
Jonathon Millen:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So... But what I would say is, it's unforgivable because there is no other savior other than Jesus. So there's there's no other way, Quentin, that you can be saved. God God has provided no other offering of grace. So, you know, if I if I...
Matthew Stephen Brown:If you and I were on the Titanic, Quentin, and I said there's one boat, and you... And there's a spot for it on you, and you reject that one boat, unfortunately, your your your decision is irreversible.
Jonathon Millen:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So so think of unforgivable as irreversible. There's one life raft for you to be saved. And they were... They're saying this this is the devil. You know?
Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's like... Yeah. It would be like you, Quentin, saying this is not
Jonathon Millen:a lifeboat. Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's an anchor. Yeah. It's it's gonna drown us all. I'm saying, no. No.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the very thing that's gonna save you. And they they rejected the very messiah that they were supposedly waiting for.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. And so... I think that's good because, you know, sometimes there's times... I mean, I feel like at least once a month, I feel like the Holy Spirit is speaking to me and I pass it up. Right?
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Stop here. Go do that. You know, you... You've had those times when you drive by somebody and you're like, man, that was a rough situation, and you feel that something inside of you of like, no.
Jonathon Millen:You need to go back. You need to have this conversation. I feel like I've missed those moments still in my life all the time. Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:I feel like that's very different from blaspheming the Holy Spirit, and I think that you could you could think to yourself, like, if if you miss it, you're done. That's not it. There's grace and mercy there. But this total rejection piece, that's a whole new level of, no, you were in it. You've seen it.
Jonathon Millen:It was all right there in front of you. You you can't... You you know the way, but you're fully rejecting. Yeah. So, yeah, listening to the Holy Spirit is very important.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Amen. Amen. So what I would say is, Quentin, you know, people who don't need to worry about that are the ones that do. Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And the ones that don't are the ones that should. Yeah. So that that's that's kinda... You know, it's like always like the people in our church that are worried about losing their salvation. I'm always like, you're the one that's good.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's the one that's arrogant
Jonathon Millen:Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Before the Lord, and they're gonna hear, depart from me, I never knew you. Yeah. And it's like, dude, you know, I want you to have I want you to have confidence for eternal life, but not arrogance. Right. Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so we gotta be careful. Alright. Last point or a question from Andy from Instagram. We love our Instagram questioners. I find it very confusing to pray in Jesus name or in the Holy Spirit, so I just strictly say God in my prayers.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Who am I supposed to pray to? Am I supposed to switch it around based on the occasion?
Jonathon Millen:Alright. You're the... That's a great question.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You are the administrator here at Sandals Church, so lead us here.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. Yeah. I think this is a great question. And just off of what you were just just talking about in the last question, this idea that, even the fact that you're asking this question is so is is so telling of of kinda where you are, which is a great thing, that you want to pray. You want to understand the trinity.
Jonathon Millen:But when I think about this question, I think about the trinity that God... You've got God the father, you've got Jesus the son, you've got Holy Spirit. And when when we were, you know, in perfect relationship with God Mhmm. We, you know, we we had that relationship. We were there.
Jonathon Millen:Adam and Eve were in the garden walking with God. But when that was broken, I think about now how I pray. I pray to Jesus
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes.
Jonathon Millen:As that bridge back to God. Mhmm. So I I am praying to God when I'm thinking about the father, and I'm praying to Jesus when I'm thinking about that bridge back to God. But then when Jesus died, he left us the Holy Spirit, and he said this is gonna be your advocate, and this is gonna be your comfort, your guide, and I believe you can pray to the Holy Spirit. He's here on
Matthew Stephen Brown:Earth
Jonathon Millen:with us. Also, this lets me know that these are three people. When you say, you know, who do I pray for? What's... You know, based on occasion, these are three different people.
Jonathon Millen:You know, we talk about the three in one, but this Holy Spirit is not just this this piece of electricity, this power, this experience, just so often feels like that. But this is a person. This is a... This is the spirit of God Mhmm. That we get to pray to, that we...
Jonathon Millen:That that still speaks to us, that leads us. It's not just this warm, fuzzy feeling. Yeah. And so when I think about how do I pray, you know, I I do go back and forth because I mean, sometimes I'm praying to God. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Sometimes I'm praying to Jesus because I'm thinking about the savior of my soul that came to earth and died for me, and it's that bridge back to a loving father. Mhmm. And then I... Sometimes I pray to the holy spirit. Holy spirit, I need you right here in this moment.
Jonathon Millen:I need comfort. I need guidance. I need wisdom. I need you to help me understand, you know, whatever that may be. And so I I I love how you said, I strictly just say God just to make sure I'm good to go.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah.
Jonathon Millen:Yeah. And so... And but I take it back to, like, the the fact that you're doing that, prayer is a relationship with a loving God. He's... It's not some...
Jonathon Millen:He's not throwing a technical in the field saying, like, oh, you prayed to the wrong person, so now God didn't hear you. No. The three work together. They've always been there like like you just talked about. But I do think they're...
Jonathon Millen:The roles that they play are a little different. Mhmm. But, man, when we pray, we we are we are praying on behalf of God, of Jesus in that way, and so, yeah, I love how you even talked about the... Based on the occasion, because I do that in my head as I pray, I'm thinking about the occasion, but at the end of the day, God's just so happy that we're praying, that we have a relationship, that we're speaking to him, and and bringing him throughout our day.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So it was interesting. I was, I had an appointment this week, and it was a Catholic lady, and she was asking me, she said, my kids got into an argument about whether or not Jesus is everywhere or not. And her son said, he is, and the daughter said, not. And I said, well, I said, theologically speaking, your daughter is correct and your son is incorrect.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus is not everywhere. So part of the incarnation is that the eternal omnipresent son of God, who is everywhere, became embodied in one place at one time in a person. And so that's why it's important, you know, when we say theologically... So I was gonna say the Trinity is even in Genesis one and two. So Genesis one, right, in the beginning, God, that would be the Father, created the heavens and the earth.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. But then the next verse is the Holy Spirit is hovering above. Then in Genesis three or Genesis four, Adam and Eve hide because they hear the sound of God walking in the garden. I would say that's the that's the second person of the Trinity. We need to be careful not to say Jesus, and here's why.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus is a historical person who lived in history. So the second person of Trinity, the son of God has always been God, is omniscient, but he became a man. So that's why it's important that we don't read Jesus back into the Old Testament. We say the second person of the Trinity. He became a man, and so...
Matthew Stephen Brown:And here's why that's important. So if we think about second Corinthians is... Can you guys look it up? Is it fourteen thirteen or thirteen fourteen? I can't remember if second Corinthians has 14 chapters or 13.
Matthew Stephen Brown:I think it's thirteen fourteen. It says, may the love of God... May the may the love of God, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the fellowship of Holy Spirit be with you all. It's a benediction at the end of the book. What verse is it?
Speaker 1:I I might be fourteen thirteen.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. So I think it's second Corinthians fourteen thirteen. And so here... Here's what I would encourage you to do, Andy. As you grow in your faith, learn what each person of of the Trinity does.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So we love to say Jesus loves you, which is great. What does John three sixteen say? For God so loved you That's good. That he sent his son. So what does Paul say in second Corinthians?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Is it fourteen thirteen to which side? He says, may the love of God... So it's important that we all remember our father loves us.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's important, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Why do we have a relationship with our loving father? Because of Jesus. But then what does he say? May the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. So the Holy Spirit is the omniscient, ever present, personal relationship that the church has with God.
Jonathon Millen:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:So, right, God is in heaven on his throne, Jesus is sits next to him. The spirit is with us. It's why Jesus says, it is good that I go Yep. So that you may receive the Holy Spirit. And and why is it good?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because Jesus is limited to one place at one time
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because he's in human flesh.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The spirit does not have those limitations. Right. The spirit can be at sandals, at harvest, at the rock, the grove, listening to all of our prayers at all times. At the bar? Yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. At the bar, wherever you are, convicting you, directing party that you're at, everywhere you speaking to you. And so what I will say, Andy, is, you know, so we ask for things in the name of Jesus. Right?
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because our authority comes from Jesus. Jesus says, ask for whatever you want. He says, in my name. Right. But we can also ask the spirit for things.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The Bible guarantees ask for the spirit. He says, I will give you the spirit. So we can ask Jesus for the spirit. I ask for things like spirit, give me strength. Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Spirit, like, before I go out and preach, Holy Spirit, fill me. Right. Holy Spirit, prepare hearts. Holy Spirit, you know, rid the enemy from this place. So I will ask the Spirit for things.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would just say, Andy, is don't worry about it's right or it's wrong. Say, God, I wanna grow in how I relate to you. So we had this awesome experience. We have two grandsons, and I'm gonna try not to cry when I share this story. But our oldest grandson wanted to hold the new one.
Jonathon Millen:Oh, yeah.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Which is a little scary, because he's two. And holding, killing, right, those are very, you know...
Jonathon Millen:Unless he does when he hold him.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Wanted to hold him, and he was... He wanted him in his lap. So we put my my new grandson, Max, in West's lap. And guess what West did? What is it?
Matthew Stephen Brown:I kid you not. He started pointing to members of the family. Papa, Jima, Unc. What he was doing is he was introducing our new grandson to the family. That's so cool.
Matthew Stephen Brown:What I would say is, Andy, what you need to do is let the scriptures introduce you to your family. Here's the father speaking. Here's the son speaking. Here's the spirit speaking. It's all God.
Matthew Stephen Brown:It's all the family of God. So one of the ways the Trinity has historically been defined is the Godhead. And so it's very, very difficult to understand. There is one being that is God. So this is not a perfect example.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The human race is... We're all human beings. So we're all part of what? The human race.
Jonathon Millen:Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:How many human races are there? One. Mhmm. We are all human beings. There is one being that is God.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Within that one being that is God, there are three persons, the father, the son, and the holy spirit. They are equal, but they have different roles. The Father is in charge of all, and eventually, says the Son will lay everything at his feet. Everything is for God. You know, and it's interesting how it works.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Jesus points to the Spirit, the Spirit points to Jesus. Jesus says everything I do, the father does. He says, if you've seen me, you've seen the father. Right? Because they're like, we wanna see the father.
Jonathon Millen:He's like,
Matthew Stephen Brown:look, you're seeing God right now in human flesh. And so what I would just say is, Andy, is just as you pray, just say, God, would you teach me how to pray? Holy Spirit, would you help me how to pray? And let God introduce you to his family because it is confusing. And it's just interesting to me that that's the first thing my grandson did.
Matthew Stephen Brown:He wanted Max to know his one family, but to know who we were in his one family. And it was interesting that as an 18 old, he knew that the members in this room were distinct from any other group
Jonathon Millen:of people. That's wild, isn't it? This is this is us.
Matthew Stephen Brown:This is who we are. And it was so powerful. I I I was sobbing. It was so sweet. And so what I would just say is, Andy, let God introduce you to who he is.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And, you know, just just as you read through the scriptures, is this is is this God the father? Is this God the son? Is this God the spirit? And then... And and not so that you are correct when you're praying, but so that you rightly understand the family of God that you are worshiping.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so... And again, I use that term family lightly because there are no earthly examples that can completely communicate who God is. So Moses asked God, who should I say sent me? And the probably the best answer in the Bible of who is God is I am that I am. Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so, and if you think of the angels, you know, when we were kids, in, Isaiah chapter six, holy holy is Lord God Almighty, we were raised to think of pure, pure, purity is God. Right. Holy means separate. A better word nowadays is unique. Mhmm.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Unique. Unique is God. There is nothing like him. And so when he creates mankind in his own image and likeness, he creates the male and female. Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You know? And so, I mean, there's a whole, which is why sexuality is so important to
Jonathon Millen:us as Christians,
Matthew Stephen Brown:because our sexuality does not reflect our desires, it reflects our relationship Yeah. With So when we have sex, we do so in union and marriage, and we do so diverse as men and women. Right. Because when we come together, we are one. And that's not to shame anybody out there who's gay.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Sure. It's just to say, if you're going to follow this Christian God and relate to him in the way that he wants to be related to, this is how you practice those things. Yeah. So, Andy, it's a great question, you know. And again, if you have Jewish friends, they won't say any name.
Matthew Stephen Brown:They say Hashem. They say the name. The name. The name. Blessed be the name.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And so it's because they want to revere him, but they don't have Jesus. Mhmm. Jesus tells us to call him father, Abba. Right. And the spirit helps us pray that way.
Matthew Stephen Brown:The spirit helps us cry out Abba, daddy, help me. Save me. Listen to me. And that's that's so beautiful. So I'll be praying for you, Andy.
Matthew Stephen Brown:You you wanna close any thoughts?
Jonathon Millen:No. I would say that I think that when I pray too, when I... When I'm praying on behalf of myself, I do feel like it's more directed toward God, toward Jesus. Like, I I need you, Lord, in this. I...
Jonathon Millen:I'm I'm broken here. This is my sin. I'm laying it down at your feet, Jesus. Yeah. And and I think that when I'm thinking about the world, though, you know, when when Jesus died, he left us the Holy Spirit.
Jonathon Millen:And it's it's our it's our mission here at Sandals is to love God, love people, live on mission. And I think that when you are filled with the spirit, when you have spiritual gifts, when you are praying to the Holy Spirit, it is building you up, edifying the body. It is giving us boldness to go out, and I would just say pray throughout the day. It's not just a one time where you're praying to God or praying to Jesus, praying to the Holy Spirit. Take Jesus throughout it.
Jonathon Millen:Take the Holy Spirit with you throughout the day as you start to discern things. Holy Spirit, help me discern that. Give me wisdom here. I'm about to go do this presentation. I've got this paper due.
Jonathon Millen:I'm in school. I'm... I've got a hard situation. I've got conflict management. Holy Spirit, would you speak through me because my own words, I can't figure this out.
Jonathon Millen:And so I I think that I love the idea again as based on the occasion because that's... It's so true as you as you become more of a disciple of Jesus, you really do figure out, you know, you know, God is a loving God. He is the creator. And because of his perfect redemption plan, we have Jesus who came and we have the Holy Spirit here. And and all of that is connected by praying and reading our bible, praying and reading our bible, us talking to God and God talking back to us.
Jonathon Millen:Amen. And so I thought this was a great question, Andy.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. And I just think, rather than worrying about, you know, whether or not you're praying right, God's just so glad to hear from you.
Jonathon Millen:That's
Matthew Stephen Brown:right. That's right. You know, and so just remember, Andy, you're one of his favorites. He sent his one and only son to die on the cross so that you could be in right relationship with him. And, you know, I I was talking with a person who kinda goes to our church, not ready yet to make a decision, and she's just so overwhelmed with shame, and I just I just was like, look, we are Christians because Jesus paid it all, and I just was trying to encourage her to let Jesus forgive her.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And and again, it's this mentality of I gotta get these things right. And and literally, her concern was, I've been bad, therefore God won't. Listen. And and again, so I I I think that there's a religious part in all of us that says I have to get things right for God to hear me. And it's like, no, no, no.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's why Jesus entered pain.
Jonathon Millen:Right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Because he he got it perfect so that we we didn't have to.
Jonathon Millen:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's just so important. So thank you, Andy. Thank you for everybody listening. Thank you, Jonathan Millen, for being our charismatic sojourner with us at Sandals Church. Having been...
Matthew Stephen Brown:I love you guys. And again, use your gifts of the spirit. If God gave you the gift of tongues in this series, utilize that in your prayer life, you know, after this last weekend. Please use prop... Prophecy.
Matthew Stephen Brown:Use it in your group. Use it in discipleship. Speak truth to one another. We need that more than ever, and so I I I'll just close with this. I was on the phone with a church member that's just struggling whether or not God cares and God is real, and she just said, she said, I don't know why God won't speak to me, and I said to her, he's speaking to you right now.
Jonathon Millen:That's right.
Matthew Stephen Brown:He told me to call you. This... Right. So he's borrowing my mouth to speak to you. He does love you, and I think that's so important.
Matthew Stephen Brown:That's the gift of prophecy. We we we speak God's concern, God's care, God's comfort over people when they need to hear that, and it's one of the ways that God operates in his church. So, you know, anyways, I love you guys. As always, send your questions into sandalschurch dot com backslash the debrief. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. We hope this conversation helped you grow in your faith. If you've enjoyed today's episode, make sure to follow us wherever you listen podcasts and subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss what's next. You can also stay connected by following us on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok for behind the scenes clips, highlights, and more ways to engage with the community. We'll see you next time right here on the Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown.