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The Wellness Docket is a podcast for lawyers and legal professionals ready to prioritize their mental health. Through honest conversations with guests from inside and outside the legal world, we explore burnout, balance, and the pressures of practice—creating space for reflection, recovery, and resilience in the profession. This is a space where your wellness is always on the docket.
Tim: [00:00:00] Hey guys. So I am on my way to Shediac, New Brunswick for the next episode of The Wellness Docket. And this is completely unlike any of the episodes that I've done before. First, this is completely unscripted and it's on scene. So I've never done one in person before with someone. And the other thing that really makes this unique is we're headed to Shediac to, I think it's called the Courage Center to meet with the justice facility dogs and the CEO of the Justice Facility dogs program, Krystal. And basically what this program does is when someone's involved in the justice system, and I think it's primarily in the criminal justice system, so for example, a child is a witness in a court case, or someone else as a witness in a court case. And it's identified that they require a facility dog there to help them as a therapy dog. They send these dogs in to help out in those situations. So I discovered this program probably about a year ago on Facebook, and I basically just fell in love with this program. I basically, I like everything they do on their social media, it's like all positivity into the world. And so I've always wanted to take a day and come down and check this out.
Tim: [00:01:34] And so this is going to be a really special episode for me. A little bit of a personal story on this. I probably first experienced that, I remember, anxiety in my life when I was about grade eight. And one of the things that really helped me through it, I visited a friend of my dad's who had two golden retrievers, and I have always sensed that day and throughout most of my life, been an animal lover, and dogs, especially because they just have had that effect on me. It's so calming. And so I'm really excited about this, about getting a chance to meet hopefully all the justice facility dogs that are there today and meet the CEO of this program and to learn more about all the wonderful things that we're doing. So we'll update you when we get closer to Shediac. We just passed Nackawic from Woodstock. So we'll talk to you soon.
Tim: [00:03:03] So I am here with Crystal LeBlanc at the center for Justice Facility Dogs. I think it's called the Courage Center.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:03:12] Yes, the Courage Center.
Tim: [00:03:13] And I'm pretty excited about this interview. I've been thinking about this for probably about a year. I first saw your Facebook page post that you had made about the dogs, and I immediately fell in love with the dogs. And now digging deeper into this program, it just fits really well into what The Wellness Docket does. It's not quite lawyer mental health, but it's lawyer adjacent, so. Yes. And it gives us a chance to come down here and play with these dogs. So we're here. This is Winston. Yes. And he's joining us today. And so I guess my first I've got so many questions. Completely unscripted. The first question is to tell me a little bit about how this program started. Where did the idea come from? And then, how did it take shape?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:04:01] Courthouse dogs really originated in the United States. There was a crown. Well, not a crown. Sorry. A prosecuting attorney in Seattle, Washington. Her name is Ellen. And she had a child who had special needs, who was in a wheelchair. And she had to go to court one day. And her aide, who used to provide for her son, was sick. And so she had to bring her son to work with her at the courthouse, and he had a special needs dog named Jeter. Okay. And she brought Jeter into the courtroom, and she just felt like it had completely changed the environment of that courtroom. And she vowed that based on that experience, that when she retired as a prosecutor, that she wanted to explore the option of having courthouse dogs to support vulnerable victims and witnesses when they testify in criminal proceedings.
Tim: [00:04:51] And so how did that get up to this area in Canada? So we're in Shediac, New Brunswick as I said earlier on my intro video. And so how did that translate here and get picked up?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:05:03] They formed the Courthouse Dog Foundation quite a while ago. She partnered with a retired veterinarian. So you kind of had both of those skill sets that you needed to get the program running. And their job is to partner with charities like ours who want to start up a justice facility dog program in their community, and to help you connect with schools that do ADI schools, meaning they're accredited by Assistance Dog International. So they're approved in order to train dogs, because a lot of people think that it's a therapy dog program and it's really not. So we'll have to get into that.
Tim: [00:05:35] I'd like to hear more about that.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:05:36] But what happened is, in New Brunswick, we knew that there were more and more sadly, victims going to court, victim services departments, especially areas that had limited victim service coordinators. So, in Moncton, there's quite a few. But in other regions it was quite limited. And so we really wanted to do something that would provide that court accompaniment piece, so being there with them while they testify. And so I reached out to Kim Gramlich, who's the president of Justice Facility Dogs Canada. So there's a Canadian network, and she had the first dog ever in Canada do courthouse work. His name was Caber. He's passed away. He was a yellow lab. Looked a little bit like Mr. Winston here. And she was really my mentor. I contacted her, she had a courthouse dog working in Delta, B.C., and we started that process back in 2016 to find a school that was appropriately accredited by Assistance Dog International to do this work, and we applied to the Lions Foundation of Canada Dog Guides about 2018. And then we received Muriel, our first courthouse dog, in the province, in April 2019. And she took the stand for the first time. May 31st, 2019.
Tim: [00:06:44] Oh that's amazing.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:06:44] So that's kind of how we got going. And of course, we've grown.
Tim: [00:06:48] And so tell me a little bit about what kind of issues? First of all, how do you apply for a justice facility dog? And then when they are like, what kind of is it any witness? Is it just children, witnesses? What's the criteria?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:07:03] I mean, we do have the bulk what I'd say would be child witnesses, but at the end of the day, we fall under the testimonial aid legislation in the code section 722, that says that people are allowed to have testimonial aids for trial, but also for victim impact statements. It's easier to get TAs approved for children under 18. As you know, it's a shell under the code for over 18. It's nay. However, we're using justice facility dogs in files frequently for adults, sex assault trials, a lot of domestic violence files, death threats. And then we will also do files such as homicide files, where maybe someone was there at the time of the incident. Or, family members or whatnot that have to testify. So any crime against persons. A person is eligible to receive the services of a justice facility dog across the province. Now, we were local. And now as of November of 2024, we now cover the province of New Brunswick.
Tim: [00:08:00] And so what are some stories? I know you can't get into specific details or names, but like, can you recall what has really resonated with you? What are some moments that are really that you won't forget?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:08:12] I mean, I think every client has the ability to maybe touch you in a certain way in terms of realizing the impact of their work. I think hearing comments from, from children or from adult victims to say, I simply wouldn't have testified without Winston like that full stop. If I don't have the dog, I'm not proceeding. So we're really seeing that difference. We're seeing people say, well, I didn't have to necessarily talk to the lawyers or the judge. I could just tell Winston what happened to me and I was able to then more candidly get that out. And I think it's the consistency because these canines are trained to do RCMP interviews as well, to be a support during that early stage of the forensic side, as well as forensic medical exams. And so we're able to offer a steady presence of something in an ever changing justice system that you've got victim service people who may be off sick that day or they change jobs. Crown prosecutors sometimes can get reassigned files so that they might have a connection with the crown that they liked, and all of a sudden it's reassigned to somebody, right? Police officers might go out on leave for lots of different reasons.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:09:22] So all these people that they have to interact with and tell frequently about this terrible thing that happened to them, probably the worst thing that'll ever happen to them in their lives. They have this one constant presence that, short of a medical emergency, we can guarantee them that they're going to have Mr. Winston from the first time they come in this room. We're doing this podcast today in our soft interview room at the Courage Center, where RCMP interviews take place. So to have Winston here, to have Winston when they do their forensic medical, if they're a victim of sex assault and they decide to do a rape kit, have them for court preparation statement review. They get to stay with the client while they're reviewing their statement. As you know, adults can't stay with them because we can't contaminate. But a dog can't contaminate. So now you're no longer alone to review your statement and then be with them for five, six, seven hours while they're on the witness stand all the way to sentencing.
Tim: [00:10:14] And do they typically, would it be one dog per person or would they stay with that one consistent dog?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:10:20] Yeah. Our goal is to really have them with the same canine. You know, sometimes things happen where.
Tim: [00:10:25] Is it okay that we call them dogs?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:10:26] Yes, yes. It doesn't matter. Yeah. I think we probably do that to remind people that they're not family pets. I think that's why we tend to use dog words, maybe a bit less, but that's absolutely fine. So yeah, I think that our goal is always to stick with them. And 99% of the time we're able to do that, that they get the same dog.
Tim: [00:10:42] And you had explained to me the biometric science behind this because so, I mean, I know that, and something I shared earlier, in an intro video is when I was younger, I kind of went through difficult anxiety, like about grade eight, and a friend of mine, my friend of my father's had two golden retrievers and I absolutely, it's like cemented in my memory how calm that made me feel, how much better it made me feel. And to this day, I wouldn't go out without an animal, without a dog. And so can you tell me a little bit about the science behind that? Because I just know, I feel him breathing.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:11:24] You feel better? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Very grounding. Absolutely. Yeah. We absolutely use the dogs to get better recall from witnesses' memory recall. We know that sadly your brain doesn't know the difference between this terrible thing that happened to me in the past, and it's happening to me right now, right? Honestly, I wish our brains didn't do that. I would have a different job, right? And all these people wouldn't be suffering as much to go through that process. But your fight or flight hormone tends to kind of get a bit trigger happy. Um, and the minute someone's asking you questions, and we know that when witnesses take the stand, they have to remember things into as much detail as possible in order to make sure that the judge can better understand exactly what happened. And to really paint a picture for that judge. We know that when they come in, they know the charge and that's about it, right? They come in with nothing. And our job is to keep that stress down. And it's kind of comparable to acupuncture or grounding techniques. So they go in the witness stand and they lay on the witness's feet so that we bring down the cortisol and we counterbalance that with your oxytocin. We all have oxytocin in us. But sadly, the cortisol over fires and it blocks your memory. So it turns off your prefrontal cortex. And it can be hard to remember maybe up to 18 months ago, whether or not someone had a zip up hoodie or an over the head hoodie? It can be really hard, especially because the fight or flight would have been exceptionally high while you were going through being a victim of crime. And now you also have the lapse of time in general impacting your memory.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:12:59] So we have all these things working against you, sadly, and we need the facts to come out as best that we can. So we bring down that nasty cortisol and increase your oxytocin. And your oxytocin is your hormone, it's what you emit when you feel believed, understood, accepted, safe and supported. Now, is that not all the things that we would love for witnesses to have in a not so welcoming sometimes courtroom. Right? When a baby is first born, actually, and they see their mother for the first time, that's the highest oxytocin shot you'll ever have because they've been in the womb. They're bonded with this person and now they see them for the first time. So we want to recreate that sense of safety for our victims. And when we do that, we get high conviction rates, better memory, better recall, and also a better feeling of what the system can support them in. It doesn't need to be adversarial. It can be a supportive one. And sadly, a lot of victims, not all, but a high percentage will be victims of crime again, especially if they have multiple vulnerabilities. So this creates a more comfortable atmosphere where they go, what? I got to have that support. I got to meet Miss Crystal. I had Mr. Winston. This big bad thing has now happened to me again. I wonder if I can use that same process. So you're trying to increase their confidence in the system and hope that they come back if ever they need police again, or if they ever need to go back to court.
Tim: [00:14:17] And so what kind of main cases do you see the justice facility dogs being used?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:14:24] I would say we're pretty occupied with sex assault files. I would say that's a big part of our caseload. And then we'd also have a big chunk of domestic violence files. And we'll see death threat files, threats with a weapon, common assault, those types of things. We have male clients. Female clients. Doesn't really matter. We're there to support that witness when they have to testify. We can also support a third party witness, so, was present during a crime. And they're also traumatized and deserve to have some support. So sometimes we're able to step in and offer support where a more traditional system focuses more on the primary witness. And there wouldn't be much for third parties, or secondary witnesses. So we're able to still provide that support because they need it as well.
Tim: [00:15:13] And so tell me a little bit about the training that these particular dogs go through because you said it's not the normal therapy dogs. It's a different type of training.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:15:25] I think therapy dogs. And you also hear the word emotional support animals. We understand that there's often the misunderstanding that that's what the program is. It couldn't be farther from the truth in terms of their training and their capacity. So these are not our family pets. Even when they graduate, they are leased by the Courage Center. These are dogs that are from schools that are accredited by Assistance Dog International. So you can go on ADI.org if you're curious about what schools are training, justice facility dogs you can put in your region and they'll list the actual schools that exist. And you want that accountability, and you want that full fledged training because they're valued at $35,000 a dog.
Tim: [00:16:05] You're kidding me.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:16:05] Yep. That's their cost. Winston, I know he's. Yeah, you are right, buddy.
Tim: [00:16:10] You are amazing.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:16:11] Let's just say. Not that I used to speed when I drive, but I make sure that I'm thinking about the assets I have in the back seat of my car when I'm getting to court.
Tim: [00:16:19] He looks like a $35,000 dog.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:16:22] Yeah. And that's what the dogs are valued at from that school. Based on the training, the education. They're trained from birth. And so from 0 to 8 weeks, they're doing the scent work, whether that's a diabetic alert dog, that's learning how to smell low blood sugar, a seizure response dog that's learning what a seizure smells like before it happens, what cortisol smells like for these guys. If they do well at that stage, they go home to puppy raisers in the community. And that's when volunteers in and around the Lions Foundation of Canada Dog Guides. So all our dogs are from there. They're in Oakville, Ontario. They have volunteers. They take them for 12 months, between 12 and 15 months. They're recalled back to dog guide campus. And at that point, they're really starting to narrow down, okay, what type of work can this dog do? What do they have the drive for? So in courthouse dogs, you actually want a dog that's pretty lazy. So you want a dog that doesn't have a huge drive, whereas a vision dog vision dogs are going to be leading their handler. They're actually not healing to the left side of their handler. They're actually taking control and telling the handler, oh, there's a light here. There's a curb here.
Tim: [00:17:24] Right.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:17:25] Winston would have been identified as not a good vision dog for whatever reason, right? He probably wasn't great at taking control or being independent. So you want a dog and you want a dog that's cuddly. You want a dog that loves being around people. So you don't want a dog that's antisocial, that wants to have cat energy, that kind of be by themselves all the time. So they do specific breeds. They do poodles, they do golden retrievers, labs, and then they do Golden Lab crosses, which is what Winston is. So he's a Goldador, which is a cute term that people use. So 50% golden, 50% yellow lab. That's why he's got those, like little mocha ears going on. Yeah. And so once they come back, let's say they've been recalled and everything went well in puppy raising, puppy raisers have a huge responsibility. They bring them everywhere in their world. If they're lawyers, they bring them to their office every day. If they're accountants, they're going there. If they're a high school student, they're taking them to school every day just to learn basic obedience and what it's like to have public access. They do weekly training with the school to decide, are things going well? So dogs can fail out of the program. But we don't use that word because that's mean. So it's called a career change. So when a dog doesn't do well.
Tim: [00:18:35] Winston you did not.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:18:36] He did not. Career change. Yeah. And so their careers change for lots of different reasons. Things like let me give you an example. Counter surfing would be a potential career change. So a dog that's trying to get food off your kitchen counter, right. Dumpster diving, also known as garbage dipping. So dogs are going to take garbage.
Tim: [00:18:56] So both of my dogs just failed.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:18:57] They yeah, they've career changed terribly. Career change, career change. So they go through a stringent process to make sure that they can be a working dog, period. Then they're looking for different attributes for different types of work. He would have been identified to be most suited for justice facility work. And then he would work with his specific head trainer program in the facility dog program for about 6 to 8 months. Then if he doesn't fail out on any of those points, which can happen, then the charity that would have applied to the program gets a call to say you've been approved. We would have had to be on a wait list. And then they say, your dog is ready and then we have to fly out, do our team training with the dog at that point. And there's no guarantee you can fly back without the dog.
Tim: [00:19:42] Where did Winston come from?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:19:43] They're all from dog guides in Oakville. All five that we've had. We have a great partnership with Lions Foundation and we're successor clients there. We're their busiest program in the country for them. And so we have a great relationship with the trainers there.
Tim: [00:19:57] I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:19:59] That we're the busiest. It's actually not good that we're busy. But if you look at rates, if you look at domestic violence rates in the country, Moncton comes up always as one of the highest. Same thing for sexual violence. We have a high risk of domestic homicide. So it's not shocking that it's busy. I also see it as a positive thing because maybe people are coming forward more and they feel more comfortable to use the system because we're starting to be more trauma informed in all of our practices, right? So maybe it was always bad and people just weren't coming. So maybe a bit of both. The stats aren't great. It's happening more, but people are also deciding to go forward more and to report and want to participate in the justice process.
Tim: [00:20:37] And so something you said earlier that's really interesting here. You told me that these dogs really shouldn't be seen, for example, like if there's a jury trial, right? That you try to hide them so that they in no way try to bias a jury member against. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like, how do you accomplish that?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:20:58] Yeah. And I think what it is too is like, we've done jury trials since 2019, but now that we're provincial, we have way more, I guess, on our schedules that we've done and that we're going to do. And so it's really up to the justice about those jury instructions, right? And we're going to respect whatever instructions they give. So there's some courthouses, for example, up north where the courthouses are older. The witness stand is, you know, concrete slab attached to the floor. There is no rotating that entry to block the dog. So when that happens, we simply explain to the justice that when he provides instructions not to infer guilt or innocence of the accused based on a testimonial support Person, which is where we fall under the law, is to extend that to, you'll see a canine in the room. Please ignore anything related to the canine. It's not overly complicated. They just have to provide the instruction in places like the Moncton courthouse where newer courthouses, for example, where the witness stands on wheels, are what they've done historically. And then I think they've just kind of continued that practice by rotating the entry so that it faces the justice's bench.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:22:05] And then that way we ensure that the witness is seated, the dog is seated, I'm seated before the jury comes in. And so for me, though, I have to make sure that if the justice has not provided instructions for the canine, I have to make sure that they're on. They're not having a bad day. I'm on top of it. I'm making sure that if they're like, here, he's sleeping, but he's not REM sleeping. So there's no sound right. But if he starts to dream, which is natural, right. We're going to let him REM sleep at the office this afternoon, but not in court. Yeah. So the stakes are obviously higher in jury trials. I will tell you, there was a study done in the UK about whether or not facility dogs are contaminated to a jury. They did a mock trial and they had three different scenarios. They had a dog with a child hold a photo of their family pet and then they did a mock trial. Then they had a child hold a stuffed animal. And then the third experiment was the justice facility dog.
Tim: [00:23:07] And what was the result?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:23:08] All three circumstances, the jury was acquitted. The Person found them not guilty, did not find the presence of either of the three options contaminant free. What was found most contaminant was the child holding a photo of their own dog, followed by the stuffed animal. The least contaminant was a justice facility dog.
Tim: [00:23:28] Perfect.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:23:29] And that's when there were no instructions given. So, you know, there's been academic research on this, but I think particularly in New Brunswick, it's still a new program. 2019 we were just doing Southeast New Brunswick. We've only been provincial since 2024. So we are obviously going. We serve at the pleasure of the court. So whatever the justice decides to do, we will make it work to ensure that we do everything we need to do.
Tim: [00:23:51] Do you ever get any kind of pushback on it?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:23:54] Oh, yeah. I mean, not I would say I haven't seen pushback at a judge level. If anything, they understand the benefit of the program. They're engaged. I think it's because they got to know the handlers. We write affidavits to have to testify to our skills. So we're very fortunate. And we don't take that for granted that we are highly respected by the judges and justices in our province. Of course, we'll have defense attorneys who will object to everything. It doesn't really matter what it is. And I have lots of respect for my defense side of things. Normally it's because they haven't used a dog yet. They have questions. Sometimes it's just silliness. We had a file the other day where he said, well, if my client, the accused, can't have a dog, then the witness isn't getting a dog. And I laughed a little bit and said, there's nothing in the code for accused for testimonial Aids. I'm sorry. So, we get some, some of that, but the more we, we, we deploy and the more that the system sees that we're part of the fact finding process, the less that we get those objections. When we do, we will write the affidavit, we will meet the client in advance to better understand why that specific client can benefit from a court house dog, and then we'll testify to that. And we've always been able to get that approved.
Tim: [00:25:10] And it's primarily in the criminal justice system, right?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:25:12] As of right now, I'm just doing criminal. The program is just criminal. We've been asked a lot to do family.
Tim: [00:25:18] Yeah, I do a lot of family law and we've been asked a lot.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:25:21] Yeah, we have family court support workers. We had a program here that ended at the end of March, but we still have one family court support worker left. And we're asked constantly if I could operationally sustain that. I absolutely think the need is there. I'm not questioning that at all, and it would just be to sort out the legal side of things because we just want to make sure that it's done correctly and that the standards are followed because it takes one person, even well-meaning, to try and convince somebody to put their little Rufus on the stand because he's calm, and then it causes an issue and there's a mistrial.
Tim: [00:26:00] Have you had any issues?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:26:02] I haven't had any issues in New Brunswick. Well, there's an organization that covers Atlantic Canada who has been pretty consistent at trying to get their dogs in. But it's not an ADI program, right, and not that I'm necessarily saying the dog isn't appropriately trained. There's just no Guideposts to decide if it is, whereas ADI, you know that no matter what they come out as you're going to, you're going to get this, there's no question.
Tim: [00:26:29] They're pretty amazing.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:26:30] So for Crown prosecutors who are making these requests to the judge, how can they say confidently to a judge or a justice in a CCB that that dog is going to act the same as Winston if it's not ADI accredited.
Tim: [00:26:44] It's amazing. So he was playing pretty hard for like 15 minutes. Yes. Before we did this. And then you just put his vest on and he's calm.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:26:52] Yeah. Yeah. They would have been trained from day one that the weight of the vest tells them what behavior we're expecting. So from a puppy he would have had an in-training vest. And so they start to learn that when that weight comes on their back and they feel that they're in work mode, but they're almost like superheroes, like Clark Kent and Superman. Like there's a behavior as a Superman and behavior as Clark Kent. And so they are family dogs in the evening, but still family dogs with separate expectations and rules. Yeah.
Tim: [00:27:20] I have an interest. So the last question I always ask everybody, and this is going to be even more interesting for you because I think this program, if there's one thing that you could change in the legal system related to mental health. So that's a tough one. It's usually related to lawyers, but is there something that you've seen in the justice system that you would like to see changed?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:27:46] Well, I think if you look at the reality that most victims of sex, assault, domestic violence are experiencing trauma, right? Like we know they're gone through trauma and that sometimes it can feel like a system is a bit more acutely supported. Right. And we understand why that is. We never want someone to go to jail. Yeah. We don't want someone to go to jail for something they didn't do. So we need to be certain that this happened. But I think in doing so, there still tends to be a bit of challenges, I guess, when it comes to making sure that victims rights are also supported. So, you know, and right now there is some federal legislation that they're working on.
Tim: [00:28:25] Well, is there a new one too?
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:28:26] So they're working on a bill that has a lot of good pieces to it, particularly for testimonial aids. So historically, when a client needs an aid, whether that's, you know, testify outside the courtroom, testify with a one way screen or testify with a justice facility dog, the crown has to make application to the courts. If the defense doesn't consent, we have to do a hearing on it, and I'm hoping and it seems to be headed that way, that it's going to be a reverse onus. So the notion that it's always approved because let's believe victims, when everyone says they're traumatized after being sexually assaulted. And you saw that in our versus Friesen, which was, you know, created great case law for victims of sex assault that you no longer need to convince us with a medical expert that a child is traumatized by being sexually assaulted. Right?
Tim: [00:29:12] It's a pretty safe inference.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:29:12] And now with Friesen and you see Crown speak to Friesen a lot when they talk about sentencing for these types of files. Well, by kind of setting the bar that most victims of intimate crimes could and would require testimonial accommodations, it'll maybe cause less work when it comes to doing those applications, right? Because without us writing these affidavits to get this approved judges, you know, and rightfully so because of the current system and how things roll, are asking for further evidence. Well, crowns need evidence. And where are they getting that from? So before we existed, that meant putting the client on the stand, right. And to have to put a client on the stand more than, more often than she needs to be to say she needs a TA, it's not obviously trauma informed.
Tim: [00:29:57] It doubles down.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:29:57] It does. It does.
Tim: [00:29:59] Trauma.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:29:59] Now they are allowed to have the, ironically, when they're asking that they need the TA, so if they're asking for a screen, they can have the screen during the hearing, which I guess is nice to have, but it's and you know, crowns aren't going to put their complainants in that situation. Right. So then when you don't do that though, where's the evidence to say why this person needs a facility dog or why this victim needs a facility dog? And so luckily then when justice facility dogs, New Brunswick came in across the province, we became those experts to be able to do affidavits and to and to speak to why this client in particular would need a dog. However, as you're writing them, you feel a bit annoyed because you're thinking, well, can you find me a victim of sex assault who wouldn't benefit from a courthouse dog if they asked for one.
Tim: [00:30:45] Everybody needs this.
Crystal LeBlanc: [00:30:46] Well that's true. Right. Because it's memory recall assistance, it creates a more gentle process.