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The Queer Stories of 'Cuse podcast series was created by the LGBTQ Resource Center at Syracuse University (SU), in collaboration with The SENSES Project, to curate an oral history archive telling queer stories in an authentic light. This series features interviews of past and present SU students, staff, faculty and community members of the Greater Syracuse area who are passionate about queer issues and advocacy work.
Special thanks to:
The SENSES Project Program Coordinator, Nick Piato
Director of SU LGBTQ Resource Center, Jorge Castillo
Associate Director of SU Office of Supportive Services, Amy Horan Messersmith
Co-hosts: Bushra Naqi, Rio Flores & Sebastian Callahan
Interview with Car Shapiro
Host: Rio Flores
Rio Flores 0:00
Hello, my name is Rio Flores, thank you for allowing me the chance to interview you. I am the research assistant for the LGBTQ Resource Center. And we are creating an oral history archive project with interview. And essentially, we're just interviewing folks from within the Syracuse community or anyone that's a students, staff, faculty, alum, and etc. And this project is this catches stories and experiences from regarding your experiences of greatness, or just how Syracuse can either be helpful or harmful. So just started off. Can you please state your name? And what are your pronouns if you'd like to share?
Victoria Payne 0:46
Yeah, sounds good. My name is Victoria. And my pronouns are they them.
Rio Flores 0:54
Thank you. Nice to meet you. And can you tell me when and where you were born? Or if you moved around? If you could share that as well?
Victoria Payne 1:08
Yeah, sure. I was born in Flint, Michigan. And then I moved around quite a bit. I was born in 1999. And I moved around quite a bit. I lived in Georgia for a little bit. And Texas for a little bit, and then Syracuse, and now LA.
Rio Flores 1:33
Wow, LA, as it really wants to move there.
Unknown Speaker 1:40
Yes, sir. I'm enjoying it so far.
Rio Flores 1:50
If you are comfortable with sharing, can you just tell me some experiences you had growing up? A part of the LGBTQ community with your family or friends just like experiences growing up? Whether that's coming to terms with your identity, or just how it was when he was a child?
Victoria Payne 2:14
Yeah, I think I think that I, like knowingly grew up around a bunch of other people who also turned out to be like queer and trans. But like, none of us knew. We're queer and trans. And so we got around this age. Not Not that we didn't know, but we didn't really come out and so around now, and but like, did I grew up in like, a queer friendly, trans friendly, like, how let's or community or whatever. Yeah, as I've like, grown up and stayed in touch with, like, people that I've known my whole life, like, turned out that a lot of us were queer and trans. And like, looking back, we can, like, see how, like, even our behaviors in childhood were like, kind of making that very obvious. Before we even, you know, started calling ourselves those things. Like, a personal experience, or like something that I cracked myself up remembering is that like, as a kid, I used to walk around, like, just like Michael Jackson. And just like that, kind of like gender performance and all that stuff, even though it wasn't thinking about it that way. And like me, sometimes going by, like different names that were like, not, like female sounding or like, just stuff like that. It's very telling that like, this was always think of like me being trans and queer people. I was like, queer sooner than I was trans.
Rio Flores 4:03
Yeah, um, did you? I guess you I guess talked about it. But like, when you came to terms with it. I guess there'll be two different things, like you said, you know, how you're coming to terms with your trans identity was like a lot later than realizing, you know, just we talked about your sexuality, but I guess Can you just talk? Well, I guess for first can you talk about coming to terms with your sexuality? And then how was it with your gender identity? And maybe, was the environment around you different or was it maybe easier to come to terms with your gender identity?
Victoria Payne 4:45
Yeah, I'm with like, coming to terms with like, queerness when I was like, really young, I kind of like, knew that I was queer, but I really only knew about like, queerness as it pertains to like gay people. And so I didn't think that like, queer was the thing or like, I just didn't know, like language for whatever but I knew that I didn't just like, like boys and then probably around in high school I like started dating and like my first partner was a girl. And at the, at the time I was dealing as a girl even though I'm like non binary, but that was kind of like my introduction to practicing queerness I guess like I was still queer before then. But in terms of like, actually like expressing my affection in a queer relationship or like pursuing a queer relationship that was like that first experience and that was just like that time of dealing with a lot of like weird homophobia is like two people that were perceived as women and like how weird people are about that especially in Texas and like being black and having a homophobic family like all of that was weird. It was not like well received but you know, that think that was like a time of just trying to be like more quiet about my queerness because I didn't like come out on purpose was like found out but yeah, at the time, I was like, very much accepting of myself but like knowing that I wasn't going to be cool with other people and like trying to keep that
Rio Flores 6:57
Yeah. Still being a child and
Unknown Speaker 7:03
this was ruled by Kansas to be me.
Rio Flores 7:09
I guess also, I should have asked this before, but if you could state your identities or how you identify as and this can be very you know, it can be anything
Victoria Payne 7:32
black non binary, even though I don't love that word. Or like gender queer also, I guess what a fire like? Yeah, I like queer because it just like encompasses a lot. And I feel like that makes the most sense. So like gender queer, like queer person
Rio Flores 7:57
sexuality.
Victoria Payne 8:01
Black neurodivergent all of those things trans
Rio Flores 8:09
fishing next next question, since we talked about it my childhood briefly, and it can be a lot to get into that on the podcast series, like getting into my child but I it was just myself, I guess if you could state your affiliation or your connection with Syracuse Yes,
Victoria Payne 8:42
I came to Syracuse for school. And I started college, whatever year that was. But, you know, a few years ago I came to Syracuse for school and then after I graduated, I stayed for a few more years and I just moved a few weeks ago
Rio Flores 9:02
Wow. How was it moving from Texas to Syracuse.
Victoria Payne 9:10
It was a lot more like Texas when I thought it would be that I was I'm like originally from up north and you know, as a kid, things are not as obvious as they are when you are an adult in terms of like people's attitudes and racial dynamics and stuff like that. And so when I moved to the south and then had the opportunity to leave the south about things are gonna be different and they were this like, weird in a different way. But I do like a lot of what I found in Syracuse outside of like, the school was not great, but I do like the city of Syracuse a lot and I think like the city of Syracuse has like great people and like great history So yeah.
Rio Flores 10:05
I guess since you mentioned like the community and even though you don't like you wouldn't identify as like I say huge like local. Have you do it would you like to share? So I'll try to figure out a better way to rephrase it, but just like how has you know, Syracuse University overall impacted the community and this could be regarding community it could be like anything it could be
Victoria Payne 10:39
because the school impacted like I think like the school distracts from the community a lot like it's happens to be here but it's not like an integral part of like, what makes the IQs the city like special and like for the people who actually live in Syracuse, like long term and like are actually from Syracuse. I don't think that the school has like ties to the community in a real way where they do anything for people are like really like a part of the community beyond like, sporting events and like the occasional off campus thing but like I don't think that the community is very tied into campus and I think like that's campuses fault because they just don't care about the community and it's more about like the students that they bring in for profit but yeah, I think that the the school takes away from the city of it
Rio Flores 11:45
definitely yeah, I mean, I guess we see it with the dorms and take his continues to take up and I don't know of any updates of them just like a lot like the part of the Syracuse neighborhood that's pretty close to SU is going to be bought up again by I think it's very closer to BBB and yeah, so I guess you
Victoria Payne 12:14
keep buying up a ton of property even like the public parks and like basketball courts, they're trying to like make only Syracuse student accessible which is like outrageous
Rio Flores 12:27
Yes. Like I'm doing in park Yeah, and
Victoria Payne 12:34
the school is very great at the community and it like wouldn't have to be like that if they were just like part of the community but they're not
Rio Flores 12:42
remember when I came here they like I was came here to in some and to give like this now whole speech for like they just made to ensure a dimension like speech. My viewer, save the concerns
Victoria Payne 12:59
if you want to pay taxes that like gave to the community then things would be safer
Unknown Speaker 13:11
if we knew our neighbors wouldn't be so scared
Rio Flores 13:24
so moving on from just the impact he has on the community because I know we could talk a lot more about that because of them just in my evidence
but can you talk about your experience overall as you and this can be like your experience a part of the community I just your experience the period you know, like your experience just as a student that at a predominantly white institution institution that has a lot of history with racist incidents on campus Yeah. Yeah, there's just share your experiences to the public
Victoria Payne 14:28
I think that my experience like as a student, and as she was, like, weird, and it just got like, progressively more weird and then like, less weird and more violent. As my time su progressed, like, there was always like the weird PWI stuff, but that was like something that I was pretty prepared for. I did had like, naive thoughts about like, what my experience would be like. And I think I just like, some of the stuff that you threw at me over the years was like stuff that just no one could have predicted. Because I predicted all the, like usual, weird white people racist stuff. But I did a lot of like the admin racism stuff. But yeah, I want to say like, my freshman year, I was just, like, happy to be here, I was happy to, like, be away from home, I was happy to, like, be out of the south. I lived in like, a dorm that was like, specifically for other people of color. So like, I felt like in community with people and I felt like I had enough like, enough people that looks like me, like, around me that it didn't feel like so weird. And it felt like I had like a community to like, deal with the weirdness. And, but it was still like having fun, having a good time. And stuff facing like weird stuff in my classes and like, that kind of stuff. But overall, I was having a good time. And then as my time here, progress, especially as I got, like, more involved with like, community stuff and like organizing around the kind of like, massive, weird stuff that was happening, like, with regard to like racist incidents, and like the school's response, and just really just like, stuff that I didn't have any intention of getting involved with, like, that's my personality anyway, but it was really just like living and existing, being black, like something was gonna happen to you at SU that means you get involved. And so even before I like, was actively seeking out like organizing spaces and stuff, like I was just at a party with like a friend that or for a friend who I actually met in Texas, and we both came to SU and like that party got attacked. And then like, the police response was terrible school response was terrible. I was like, Ackerman incident. And I think everything from there just like really opened my eyes to like, the kind of place The SU is, for students that like, speak out against the like, pass like the narrative of dislike, I'm having a good time as she is a good place. Like if you the minute that you start, like thinking and feeling that and you express it like it gets a lot less of them, it becomes a lot less welcoming environment and, like very weird very fast. That was like pretty much my experience all the way leading up to like the NADA gonna shoot stuff across Heinz. Starvation excetera like this was compounding all the way up until I got out.
Rio Flores 18:19
Sorry that you had to face the experience documents. Because I I'm a senior now by think I was even here. And they happen. So like, I think, from, I guess, folks who also listen to this podcasts or just students that come later on like that, they would have to like just hear what happened or like what happened in the past and see it continue to happen like in the present in different contexts in different ways. Right, because we obviously know like, things just happening now, even if we're not getting like emails about it. Because of like, who was there like, students have been comfortable not having a place to reach out for support and hope. I think this is something that every student I would even say every but specific specific students end up having to but getting into that I I guess you mentioned the before and the and the sense of like, organizing and protesting. I guess what would be what was some ways you resist? And I think you could talk about resistance like it's as you and maybe after because So, you have graduated already. So I feel like, you know, our experiences are different, but if your form existence has, like changed or maybe has, like, amplified in some way and as she was a product of any change.
Victoria Payne 20:18
Yeah, I think like, I think with resistance in general, like, I learned, I grew a lot in terms of like, studying, like, the history of resistance and like, what actually works and what doesn't, because I used to be like a very liberal person. And even though like, a lot of us in the US think like, liberal, good, conservative bad, like, I now know that it's like, liberal, bad, conservative, bad. And like, there are other options and like, people that have like, studied history and like, studied what works, and it's not like, liberal solutions to things. And so I've learned a lot about like, changing my tactics from like, being so concerned about who wins elections to like, actually doing collective action about stuff that like, materially changes things for people, because if we like, look at the history of resistance, we know, it hasn't been like, elections of two people that serve the same interest ultimately, that like, changed people's conditions for the better. And it's been like, actual acts of resistance, or like, breaking rules, or like making power upset and like doing things that have consequences. And I also think, like, I've learned about making things like making things a collective, by like, being in community with other people, so that our problems are each other's problems, and not just like, our own, because there's tons of people, like you said, like groups on campus, and groups in the world that are like, going through the same things, but like, isolated as individuals and like going up against people that are, that have more power than them or money than them, whatever. And like, unless you really, like, connect with your community and like, share your experiences, like you're not going to know what everyone is commonly struggling with. Yeah. And like, you're not gonna have the backing of like, other people. So yeah,
Rio Flores 22:39
thank you for sharing that. I, I just, I guess you kind of talked about it in the sense of community. But I guess, how you felt like, in your years, I asked you that the community like you gain a community and that you know, or like you was able to maybe reach out to specific folks to create art to like, you know, gain a community outside of Syracuse, like, once you graduated. To then all was said to us, there's like a big like, alumni network for like, I don't even mean that specifically, just like, just like a community in general, like, you know, spaces where you felt like it was safe enough to talk to heal. And if they were like folks on campus that helped with that, you know, if there was any offices or anything like that.
Victoria Payne 23:39
Yeah, I think like, I think some of the community I made was just like, casual friendships like regular stuff, people that I met in my classes or like people that I met in my dorm and stuff that I say close to and like, had connections with, but I think a lot of like, my long term connections at SU are also like people that I've met in like, not ideal circumstances, like people that I've met, trying to like resist stuff or like going up against things that were like bigger than us. So I also met a lot of people that way that I like feel like I've formed like longtime community with
Rio Flores 24:30
no, thank you for sharing that. Um, so give me a moment. I bet that the I have been having some connection issues. But I guess moving on. I just wanted to ask if you could add state, your connection to SU and where it is If If you're no longer a student as you if you could I know you aren't good, they stay with us eliminate. But if you can stay your occupation and kind of like what you've been doing now. Right, so
Unknown Speaker 25:18
in your mommy what the question was? Yeah, just just my religion to the school.
Rio Flores 25:25
Yeah, your occupation. Okay,
Victoria Payne 25:26
gotcha, gotcha. So I went to Syracuse for a few years, I graduated early, but I was accused for the social work degree. I graduated two years ago, or something like that. Really couldn't tell you. And since then, I have been working. I work at the Trevor Project, which is an org that does crisis services for LGBTQ youth. So that's what I'm doing now, since graduation, and like to do organizing stuff.
Rio Flores 26:23
How has it been working? Since graduation,
Victoria Payne 26:30
I think the only thing worse than unemployment is employment. But I'm glad that I'm no longer job hunting. And I'm, like, glad that I feel morally okay about what I have to do on a daily basis. And I'm glad that I don't have to leave my house to work. And I'm glad that I have time to like, do actual stuff in the community, because I think a lot of like, nonprofit work is not as impactful as it could be if it wasn't tied to a nonprofit.
Rio Flores 27:18
Congratulations on the job.
Unknown Speaker 27:23
At least,
Rio Flores 27:24
you don't have to work in a COVID environment.
Victoria Payne 27:28
Right? Exactly. I'm not trying to breathe that in my place of work.
Rio Flores 27:36
Definitely. Um, I actually sit on the topic of COVID as of have you when you is ASU? I don't remember the timing of COVID. Again, like when it like started started, but if you can, if COVID, like impact your experience, maybe how the COVID impacting your as how impacted, yeah, how is COVID impacted you? And maybe like, they didn't change anything in regards to, you know, like, just, um,
Victoria Payne 28:21
I think the COVID started, like my senior year, towards the end of second semester. And like at the time, we're involved in like the Lockean protests that had gone on for like, a month. So the time that I happened was just like, I think weirder for like, us involved in that protest. And like, for everyone else, it just felt like Time was passing weirder. And we weren't really like, super looped into, like what was going on in the world and like outside of that building. So when we heard about COVID, it just like, didn't fit a loop down to like how that came about. And like when that became a thing. And then we kind of got pushed out into it, because the protests ended at the same time that like COVID was picking up in the time that like, the decisions were being made that people weren't coming back to campus and stuff. So I was still I was like, technically at the end of my classes or at the end of like, the classes that I needed to graduate but I still had a bunch of classwork to do to actually graduate because I had like a bunch of incomplete grades from the month of protesting and then COVID starting so a lot of it was just like scrambling for housing, but like again, that's where like I was so glad that I was like in community with people that like genuinely, like gave a fuck about what happened to me and like, making sure that each other like I had a roof over our head, like a very confusing time because like, for various reasons I wasn't trying to go home, like not during a pandemic and at all. So it was like, nice to be in community with people that like, we're in the same boat, and we're like, all invested in each other's like, well being, and us like having a place to stay. So a lot of it was just like, being indoors with the same people that I was indoors with for a month already, and then trying to like finish my classes and graduate, which eventually happened.
Rio Flores 30:49
I mean, congratulations on graduating.
Unknown Speaker 30:54
Thank you, I thought I'd never see the day.
Rio Flores 31:01
The same thing just to graduate. But I guess you kind of mentioned before, how US EU has always been in like, just too expensive you have had on as you and not just being queer and gender queer, but just also just, just being as you like, giving, like I that that's just an added layer. But, uh, I wanted to active during COVID I mean, you was, as you like, briefly, like, briefly, COVID still did have like a huge impact the first time it hit, since it went from in person to remote. And everything was like, very quickly, like everything escalated so rapidly. How do you how, how did you feel like if you felt supported, or you felt like it was a lot? Because I know that one semester it was President sales for courses, but like, how was it academic? How was it academically? And it's like, you know, how it had an impact on you. Like, you know, like, when we talked about mental health, within communities, like within communities, especially like at a private institution, like a Syracuse University, like, a lot of times students feel overwhelmed or aren't supported as much to talk about your brief experience during that time during COVID.
Victoria Payne 32:34
Yeah, I think like, like I mentioned earlier, like, I feel like community really, like had my back in that moment. Like were, none of us really knew what was going on. But we wanted to, like, make sure that each other didn't get sick, we were like, trying to make sure that we all had a place to stay. In terms of the school though, like, like I said, the process was like happening at the same time, are like right leading into COVID. So like, that was like mentally, super rough. And like, it was directly caused by the university. And like fighting with them being served by them being threatened with arrest by the, like, physical violence, like all of that, and also just like the mental drain of like having to deal with academia, like during a moment of crisis. And like, people not being understanding about work not being done. I was like, well, we're so glad that I'm doing this, like, I think that really was like eye opening about like how much academia is like not there to support you. Like I was always a good like, student in terms of like, getting good grades, I would if I was a good student in terms of like, you know, getting good results out of classes, like that was always okay for me. But like, if you are in a situation which like happened various times throughout like school, the protests being the biggest one of like, you know, school not being your priority, or like, stuff happening in your personal life or like trauma or whatever. There's no understanding and academia is not for that. So I think like, I had to, I had to just like, care a little less. Like, at the end of the day, like I know that what I'm doing or like whatever I'm going through and taking care of myself is like, more important than what these people want for me for these classes that like, ultimately don't matter that much. Not to say that I didn't get anything out of them. But like, at the end of the day, like life experience, Trumps academia for me. And just in terms of like, understanding the world, and like interacting with the world and being like an active person in your community, I was like, I know that, like, what I'm doing, or even like, if it was just like a traumatic moment where school wasn't my priority, like prior to the protests, like, it's not the care a little less, and, like, adjust my attitude, because I was like, I can't make everything in emergency, like they're trying to make it. This is not doesn't trump, like when I'm going to like, prioritize yourself, like, ask for extension. Ly, do whatever you got to do to, like, take care of yourself first. Because like, academia is not gonna provide that space or, like, give you time or like, anything.
Rio Flores 36:00
That was good. And I use this, we have three more questions. As we're approaching the end. And you this just give us some advice to just students that might come as you in the future as as people that are still here and trying to find your space. But would you have any wisdom, or anything else you'd like to share? For future folks that are queer and non queer? Anyone that's listening to this podcast? Anything you would like to share with the UN?
Victoria Payne 36:37
Yeah, um, you know, if you're clear, and like, maybe you're away from home, coming to Syracuse, like, you know, be yourself. Like, the opportunity to, like, be in a new place and like, be yourself fully is, like, really cool. And take advantage of that. And just like, you know, obviously, to the extent that you can safely
the Yeah. That and like, find people that are like, going through the same thing exists, you find people that like, genuinely care about your well being, if you can, yeah. And, like, where that's reciprocated, ideally, like multiple people, and like, I don't know, like, figure out what you can do for each other, you know, like, everyone has their own stuff that they're gonna, like, you know, you know, like, build networks with people so that like, you can get your needs met, that people can get their needs met.
Rio Flores 38:01
Yeah, no, thank you for
Unknown Speaker 38:03
like, never collaborate with the university
Rio Flores 38:21
the wisdom, you just shed I guess you kind of mentioned it, when you're talking about building that work. But like, everyone does one thing. Also just for like, you know, their health, you know, whether that's realizing that you're stressed out and it's a lot right now mentally, emotionally that physically all these classes have been taking a toll on me just things that you've experienced trauma. So instead of focusing on trauma, because a lot of times in media that's all there is just more and more harms that we see to the community. So what is just some things that you would do for joy or just things that you do that make you happy that you know just focuses on you know, just taking care of yourself as well
Victoria Payne 39:21
i i think like just know like, the knowing myself and like knowing what I need to recharge is like, good like I think it's like take taking like into inventory like what what makes me feel like recharge and like, things for me that do that or like sometimes spending time around friends sometimes like just being by myself because I just need that to recharge. They are like checking in with people that care about you and vice versa. Music going outside when I have the energy to, and also just like getting involved in, like, service in whatever capacity like, helps me when I'm feeling like, like things are doomed. I think that like, it doesn't sound like it would be as refreshing as it is to like work or like organize or whatever but like I think that that sustains me a lot and because like, it reminds me that there's like alternatives to like things being as bad as they are. And that like there are people that care about that and are like actually building towards solutions that go somewhere that you can, like see actual progress from so I encourage people to do that. And that brings me joy.
Rio Flores 40:56
Thank you for that. I guess some to wrap up the interview. And it's been an amazing experience so far, just talking to you more about how you feel about su your experiences, how it shaped your new career as the Trevor Project. Um, I just wanted to x just essentially anything that you're grateful for I know that issue may not have been a great place for some folks and not everyone has like joyful memories. I know that like I think for me specifically when I came to college I felt like as you was just more like this this shining place like I don't know like the people just
Unknown Speaker 41:48
reputation assign. Yeah.
Rio Flores 41:50
refutation is the word that's the word. It just there was a lot more of it it's going to be amazing experience and then experience
Victoria Payne 42:01
topia for some people like oh like this this was like paradise for somebody else though. For me, expense
Rio Flores 42:20
but just gives you on that you consider some things that you are grateful for like your weather, maybe the people you're able to meet or just maybe individuals you have met throughout your time and this could be like a part of the staff faculty, alum anyone specifically that, you know, maybe that you met, and then just any words you would like to share? You know, think about is like, your final your quote.
Victoria Payne 42:54
Yeah. I am grateful for like, people that I met, like you said, like, obviously, the school wasn't necessarily a great experience, but like everyone that was at the school, they were great people there that like Trump, just like we did. Like, I am like glad that I met people that I feel like will be in my life for like, a long time. Like chosen family you know, like we're family people that like I like even more than like friends. And I'm grateful that I got to spend time in the city of Syracuse like outside of the university especially in like the years after graduation and even before that, but it's like getting to spend time in the Syracuse community and like going into like organizing spaces in Syracuse and like supporting other people's actions and like hearing about like the kind of like amazing work that people are doing in the community of Syracuse so like aren't university affiliated, like grateful for and, like, boards and stuff that like helps me meet like, like minded people or helps me to, like build for futures for like other black queer trans people like color collective. Some people in the office and, you know, like the occasional teacher, maybe I don't really, really know but of those things. I'm like, super grateful for that they've made up like my experience, even though she was always weird.
Rio Flores 44:54
Thank you for saying that humans are grateful. or, and just overall nice to hear your experience. I just want to let you know that this podcast series will be up in archives. And if you and you find one that wanted to be up you could just contact us and like me, we could take it down. But thank you so much for this opportunity just to get to interview more, interview you more and talk about this. How issue was for you? And just like talking about bigger issues that say his community does have the Syracuse University does have but doesn't address and just thank you again for this chance. No problem. Thanks for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai