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Join feminist coaches Taina Brown and Becky Mollenkamp for casual (and often deep) conversations about business, current events, politics, pop culture, and more. We’re not perfect activists or allies! These are our real-time, messy feminist perspectives on the world around us.
This podcast is for you if you find yourself asking questions like:
• Why is feminism important today?
• What is intersectional feminism?
• Can capitalism be ethical?
• What does liberation mean?
• Equity vs. equality — what's the difference and why does it matter?
• What does a Trump victory mean for my life?
• What is mutual aid?
• How do we engage in collective action?
• Can I find safety in community?
• What's a feminist approach to ... ?
• What's the feminist perspective on ...?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:01.16)
I am fired up today, Taina, to talk. Well, I want to talk about the fragile male ego. And what prompted it was I woke up today to have had a post on LinkedIn removed for quote unquote harassment. So someone reported me and I had to look and figure out what it was. And I realized it's a post from a couple of weeks ago now, but about billionaires because I had
Taina Brown she/hers (00:03.464)
Why are you fired up, Becky?
Becky Mollenkamp (00:28.794)
posted in response to a friend of mine on LinkedIn who was talking about how Taylor Swift, people tear her down and it's like sexist or whatever. And I said, that can be true. And I think she's problematic because of the fact that she's a billionaire and you can't be an ethical billionaire. Some person I don't know, some man I don't know, decided to reply to my comment to that post telling me that I was in the wrong field. I shouldn't be a business coach if I believe that.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:43.257)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (00:57.052)
I remember seeing that. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (00:59.16)
Okay, there you go. And basically questioning my knowledge, my intelligence, my capabilities. So I wasn't too thrilled with that. I don't even know this person. But I was like, I'm gonna make my own post about billionaires with this reminder about why you can't be an ethical billionaire and why billionaires are problematic and that there is a different way of doing business. And no, I shouldn't leave business coaching.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:14.401)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (01:17.932)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:25.878)
That's the very reason that we need more business coaches like me to show you that it is perfectly not only good, but actually better to aspire to grow a business that isn't going to be a billion dollar business and certainly not to make you a billionaire because there's no way to do that without exploiting the labor of others. And to be fair, I did say fuck off to him because he was
Taina Brown she/hers (01:46.348)
I remember seeing that too.
Becky Mollenkamp (01:53.776)
And I had tagged him, then I removed it. Then he posted like, I can't believe you're calling me out to all of your people. So like, this is what you're going to do. So I was like, all right, I'll remove the tag. And then I blocked.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:02.219)
But he initiated, and then he was upset when you called him out, even though he called you out first.
Becky Mollenkamp (02:05.528)
Yes!
Becky Mollenkamp (02:09.12)
Yes. huh. So it was okay for him to ins... Right. It was okay for him to insult me. It wasn't okay for me to then put him on blast. In his mind, obviously. But I removed the tag. I removed the tag of him and I blocked him. Yet somehow he managed... He or his cronies, I don't know, but somebody reported that post and it took them a while. So I don't know if he's been harboring these thoughts about this or... I have no idea what happened. All I know is it's been like two weeks and...
I get the thing today saying they've removed it for harassment. I harassed him by telling him to fuck off for insulting me. So anyway, it got me thinking about the fragile male ego and how in many ways, I think the fragile male ego is what is going to kill us all.
Taina Brown she/hers (02:51.845)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:00.76)
And I, when I say all, mean everyone who is not a cishet, able-bodied, educated, wealthy.
neurotypical and probably Christian in America, man. That's most of us, right? And that fragile male ego is what's killing all of us. And I was like, to be clear, I don't think that my post being removed is like in the grand scheme of things, really anything. And yet it does feel in a way like it is a small example. And these little small everyday examples are what add up to the big problems we're in now of where
Taina Brown she/hers (03:12.586)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:29.932)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (03:41.326)
the systems protect white men, protect men at the expense of silencing other voices and harming others. And does my post matter? No, but I do feel like it shows what's like the problem that we have here is that men don't learn how to.
Taina Brown she/hers (03:51.318)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:07.088)
question, interrogate themselves, how do others critique, criticize, question, challenge them. They don't learn how to get curious rather than just imposing their beliefs on others. Like there is some men, I think ultimately have a belief, an entitlement, the sense of entitlement. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Everyone's entitled to their knowledge. And anyone who doesn't want to receive it will forcefully need to receive it.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:09.755)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:27.419)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:36.892)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (04:37.36)
But it is not a two way street, right? The other, the opposite of that is not true. They are not, no one's entitled to give them their opinions. No one's entitled to share with them where they're wrong. No, and it's certainly not to force it upon them, which is what I ultimately did. So anyway, I'm pissed off about it. And I just feel like it's so representative of everything that we're going through right now, because the peak examples in my mind of, of fragile male ego are Trump and Musk.
Taina Brown she/hers (04:54.631)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (05:06.288)
most especially Trump, but also Musk. These men who clearly have the most fragile of egos because you can't insult them, you can't question them, you can't say a word about anything, right? You can't even ask them questions. And look where it's getting us. And I think the reason they were voted is in large part because of other males with fragile egos who see themselves in that and want to reward that. All right, that's my hot take for the day. What does it bring up for you?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:32.096)
Yeah. Yeah, I, well, you know, it brings up several different things for me. Like one of the first things that came to mind when you said something about, you know, how they feel like they're entitled to their opinion, but no one else is sometimes and
Becky Mollenkamp (05:36.174)
And where am I missing the mark?
Taina Brown she/hers (05:52.654)
It brought to mind a really short article that I read in grad school by actually a white male philosopher. I think he's based out of the UK, his name, or maybe he's Australian. His name is Patrick Stokes. And he, talked about this on my TikTok a few weeks ago, but he wrote an article called, No, You're Not Entitled to Your Opinion. And the gist of the article is that
too many of us assume that our opinions are fact because our opinions are real to us, but they're not based, sometimes they're not based in actual factual truth, right? They're based on our experiences. And this is most clearly seen playing out in media recently here in the US where you'll have
someone like one of the pundits on Fox News who has absolutely no real journalistic credentials, no real background in research, no real data to be talking about and making statements that they are, going up against actual journalists, going up against actual researchers and scientists, right? When I think about things like people who are against vaccines, right?
who have had a personal experience, which is valid, right? If you had a bad reaction to a vaccine, that's completely valid. Like no one is saying that that experience is not true and that it's not valid, but that doesn't, it's not the same thing as going against decades of research and data that say that.
98 % of the time or 99 % of the time that vaccines are useful in eradicating certain diseases and helping to boost the immune system. But you have people on both sides, right? One who is coming with all this evidence-based data, this decades of research and one who's coming with like a personal experience debating this issue when it's not at the same level, right?
Taina Brown she/hers (08:15.606)
This person is talking about the collective experience and this person is talking about the individual experience and those things are not the same. And so in a public forum like social media, which LinkedIn is, right, people I think sometimes forget, LinkedIn is social media. It's professional social media, but it is social media. There's, that exacerbates that.
premise of people spitting out opinions without real factual data, evidence-based data to back up their experience. And I think this happens a lot with people who are in positions of privilege and power, right? Because their experiences, the world is easy. I am self-made, quote unquote. I didn't have any challenges.
I was able to get through this, why can't everybody else? And it's like, okay, that was your personal experience, but that's not the collective experience of most people in this country. And so you have people like Trump and Musk who are going off of personal experiences, but then you have these collectives of people who are trying to map themselves onto that personal experience. And it's not the same thing because this collective of people
that are not billionaires are facing actual obstacles and systemic inequities and all kinds of things to be able to get to where they want to, which is not even at the point of billionaires, right? It's just at the point of like being able to pay your bills and go on a fucking vacation every year without having to worry about money, you know? And so that's the first thing that came up for me, not to get too...
theoretical or philosophical about it, but yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (10:12.164)
Let's do it. That's the best thing to do. Get theoretical, philosophical about it. Well, first of all, when you mentioned about opinions, I just wanted to say that we just told our son, and yes, he's young, but we use adult language around him because I don't put shame around language. But anyway, we just told him of the axiom that opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink, right? Because we want him to know that, start to learn early that your opinion isn't truth.
there was much more discussion around that just that statement, by the way, but it just made me think of that because yes, we all start we all believe like it's easy to believe your own story. And I think that we all create a hero's journey for ourselves. And I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with the way we do that. I think that is the way our brains are sort of wired to make because we are the central character in our own story. Everyone is the central character in their own story.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:50.974)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (10:56.425)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:03.999)
and
Becky Mollenkamp (11:08.696)
And we all want to make ourselves out to feel like heroes of our own story. Nobody wants to sort of be the villain of their own story, right? Or the side character. We are the star and every star has, every hero's story has that like turmoil. So where you say those people say it was easy for me. In fact, I think what's worse is a lot of them say it wasn't easy, right? Like Trump would have you believe, I think he would have himself believe his own hero story is that he faced all sorts of challenges and
Taina Brown she/hers (11:14.13)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:28.636)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (11:33.095)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (11:38.384)
difficulties in his life and he overcame them to be this self-made quote unquote despite obviously we know that's not true. But I think our brains trick us into believing that and I don't know that that piece is inherently the problem but I think what you're saying what I'm agreeing with is that it is when you begin to believe that narrative and then expect others to believe the narrative and there's no one there to tell you hey that narrative feels true to you and yet let's talk about the context in which.
You actually exist that collective part you mentioned which is what we're trying to do with our son to say like that can be true for you like you can feel really hard and it can be really hard and we need to know the bigger context of like how other people's experiences are right and how your experience compare to other people's experience so that you can contextualize.
that hero's journey to start to realize like, while it was difficult for me, that doesn't mean that it wasn't without privilege or that it wasn't less difficult than someone else's journey. Well, that's the part that I think is just so missing among. I'm talking about men, but I also want to be clear. And as I was on my LinkedIn video today, too, about this clearly, it's not just white men. White and it's I honestly, I think the male, the fragile male ego is not just a white man problem. It's a man problem. It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (12:36.381)
Right.
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:00.036)
bigger problem amongst people with more privileged identities. But I think that we there is this thing that happens with how we treat men inside of patriarchy that creates a fragile that fragile sort of ego that inability to receive criticism or, you know, listen to other opinions, regardless, just as a man that is the conditioning you receive. Now there's other overlapping identities that can then begin to shift how that experience looks or maybe make you more aware. But I do think it's just a man problem.
And I was very clear that I fully recognize that white women are not without equal and as bad or worse problems as well. So it's not that I'm saying that white male fragility or male fragility is the only problem that's gotten us to this point. But I think it is a big part of the problem because then the, the equal and other problem is white women who in some ways are aspiring to that same male white male status. And then.
Taina Brown she/hers (13:43.15)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (13:58.572)
emulating some of those behaviors because they think it will get them to that same place where we know it won't. But they delude themselves into thinking that if I show up that way, then I get to be at that same table. And so I think when you're talking about the people who don't know what they're talking about sort of thing, it makes me think of the white lady wellness influencers. And that same as you're talking about, like science, it's we have a white man leading the health. Leading the health initiatives.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:04.315)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:08.698)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:16.968)
Hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:27.246)
in the US government who's not a doctor, who has no medical training. And then there's this entire wellness industry that is largely being run, you the non, the unregulated wellness industry being largely run by white women who are not doctors, who don't have medical training that are doing exactly that thing you said of, well, it was my experience. Honey made my throat feel better. So it must make everyone's throat feel better or worse. Ivermectin.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:30.606)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:42.67)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (14:52.013)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (14:54.456)
made me feel better when I had COVID. So it must just be the treatment that works for everyone with no knowledge of what they're talking about. And when the piece that pisses me off is this like fragility around it of not being able to receive critique of being able to, of this like, like you said, like that story becomes absolute truth. And there's, how do you break through to those people? And I don't know the answer to that. As a parent, I have some thoughts about how to
Taina Brown she/hers (15:01.251)
Thank you.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:10.386)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (15:23.344)
potentially not have a get to that point. But I don't know if there's a solution once someone has bought so fully into their own story and has solely full so fully baked into that fragility. Boy, I don't know how you reach them.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:25.186)
Yeah, yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (15:38.132)
Yeah, well, I think one of the things that creates that fragility is that as a society, especially here in the US and in a lot of like westernized cultures, we are socialized, right, to identify with what we do instead of just like who we are at our core. So like when you introduce, like think about when you go networking or you meet someone new, like the first thing you do is you tell them about what you do.
That's how you explain who you are. And there's this idea that our identities are wrapped up in the things that we externally project to other people, how we want other people to see us. And you might do wellness coaching, but that's not the whole...
of your identity. You might be into banking, right? Maybe that's your job, but that's not the whole of your identity. But when you don't have any sense of a grounded identity outside of what you do, then that's the only thing that you can hold on to. And so when people critique what you do, then it feels like a personal attack, I think. At least that's what I have found just in my own experience, right, with undoing a lot of that conditioning for myself and
when I work with clients, helping them undo a lot of that conditioning as well, right? Like finding your identity in something that is not a part of these systems that require us to exploit ourselves in order to survive and make a living, et cetera. And I think also people conflate things like critique and sometimes prejudice.
into discrimination, right? And those are not the same things. Like I just saw a video on social media like yesterday or the day before, Roxane Gay, the author who wrote That Feminist and other things, she was on a panel, I think, in some Australian like news show or something. And it was a clip of this white woman basically saying,
Taina Brown she/hers (18:03.795)
Diversity is fine, but why is it like, let's attack the white man, right? Because of diversity issues and basically Roxanne's response to that. And I was happy to see an older white man respond in the same way to that question as well is that being critiqued, right? Or allowing diverse voices and
wanting things like equity and justice for people is not the same thing as discrimination against other people. when you ask that question, the follow-up question to that is like, why does it feel like discrimination to you if other people are allowed into the room? Like that's the real question that we need to be asking and grappling with, right? If we bring other people into the room, if we...
do what we can to quote unquote level the playing field. Why does that feel like oppression to you? Because in reality, most of the time it has nothing to do with you, right? And what I have found is that usually it feels threatening to people who already have power and privilege because they feel like they are going to lose that sense of power and privilege because it's wrapped up in their identity.
And so if you feel like someone is trying to take your identity away from you, of course you are going to react in a way that is combative and defensive. And so that's my second point. then the third thing that that brings up for me is I actually started rereading a textbook that I went through in my
very, it wasn't my very first class on women's gender and sexuality studies, but it was an introductory class to women's studies when I was an undergrad. And I'm going to be going over the textbook on TikTok for people who want to follow along and just like give you the history and break down some of the concepts of feminism, et cetera. But I read the first chapter last night and
Taina Brown she/hers (20:23.621)
the authors are talking about this matrix of oppression, privilege and resistance. And I think a lot of times when people think about things like power and privilege and oppression and resistance, they feel like it's really static, right? You're either on one side or the other, like it's a black and white issue. It's, you know, it's flat, right? It's flattened in a way.
But the reality is that all of us, regardless of how you identify, whether you identify as a Black trans woman or whether you identify as a cis, hetero white man, all of us move in and out of positions of power and privilege every day, depending on circumstances, depending on who we're around, depending on context, right? And so, I mean, let's take Trump, for example, right? You get him at a rally.
of his supporters, he's the prime person in power and privilege. You put him at a press conference in the Oval Office with Elon Musk and his son, and all of a sudden he's knocked down a couple notches, right? Like we have seen that play out over the past several months. And so there isn't ever a definite position of power and privilege.
that any one of us is ever operating in. Like it shifts, it's dynamic and it changes. And so a lot of times when people are talking about things like privilege and power and oppression, it's like, oh, it's one or the other. If you're oppressed, then you're oppressed on all fronts. If you have privilege, then you have privilege on all fronts. And I got into a lot of arguments with people who were formerly friends of mine who were white, but came from like low income or working class families when I first started learning about this, because I would tell them, oh, you have white privilege.
And they'd like, well, what do you mean? I grew up poor. And it's like, okay, those are two different things, right? I'm talking about the whiteness, the color of your skin. You're talking about economics, right? Your class struggle. And so, but it's hard for people to see themselves that dynamically because we are so socially conditioned to just see ourselves one way.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:29.732)
Yeah, I've always wondered, it's interesting to think about what is the identity that you most associate with, right? And it's interesting, I find often for people, it's not always true, but it's interesting, a lot of folks identify most with their most marginalized identity, right? So like I would identify most with my queer and woman identities, but generally I think of myself woman first. So if I was to describe myself, I would say like, I'm a woman who...
Taina Brown she/hers (22:52.001)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (22:57.454)
I wouldn't usually lead with I'm a white woman who, even though I'm fully aware that I'm white. And I find that's often the case with a lot of people where that marginalized identity is the one that they most identify with. And I think there's a lot of reasons for that that make a lot of sense. But it goes back to that, you know, again, where a black man is black and that's definitely a marginalized identity. But there's also the fact that he's a man, which still holds some amount of privilege. Now, a black man in a room full of white men,
Taina Brown she/hers (23:00.046)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:20.938)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:26.97)
that privilege, that male privilege gets really erased, right? By the fact that he is now the only black man in the room. But in a room full of women, that male attribute, the fact that he is identified as a man is going to carry some amount of power in that space. So I think that's interesting. I wanted to go back though to what you were saying before that. I think all of that's so valid and one of the things that really drove me
Taina Brown she/hers (23:30.412)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (23:43.127)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (23:55.68)
That got me upset when the whole white fragility like in 2020 when everyone suddenly discovered white fragility, whole host of reasons why I don't think that's the best book for any white person to start with in their anti-racism learning journey. Number one being it's written by a white woman. But that it was this like as soon as people sort of got that white fragility or white privilege lingo, that very thing you're saying happened so often. I mean, I saw it in my own family with people saying like, how can I be privileged? I grew up poor or, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (24:00.727)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:23.372)
I disabled or whatever these other identities, because again, they're holding on to that most marginalized identity is the thing they're leading with and not being able to see the other. Okay, but I wanted to go back to what you talking about previously about the, you were framing it differently, but ultimately what I was hearing is I think so much of it comes down to being really raised into a very hyper individualistic culture.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:25.214)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (24:48.375)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (24:49.818)
versus the collective culture. Because you mentioned collective earlier and why people feel threatened by diversity. And I think a big part of that is we are so hyper individualized here that it's all about each person for each man for himself, right? And inside of that is very obviously scarcity, right? We are given this real scarcity mentality because it's the fuel that keeps capitalism going.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:04.981)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:11.179)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (25:17.364)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (25:17.54)
Because if we believe there's very little, then we're going to work harder to earn our money because there's not enough money. So I got to work harder to get mine. I'm going to think about how I'm spending because I got to buy the thing because there's only a limited amount of the things. So I got to be the one who gets it right. It creates this have and have nots kind of thing that we need for capitalism. The capitalism needs to function, which is why I don't love capitalism in that form. But that hyper individualistic thing, I think when we talk about diversity and people are like, why are you threatened about
having more diverse voices in the room. And I think so much of it is that it's like, because they think the room only has 12 seats. And if suddenly we're allowing and focusing on having more diverse voices, it goes from 12 seats that I qualify for, right? Just by the nature of my skin to now, what if there's only six seats for someone who looks like me? Well, now my potential at that seat just got cut by half, right? So now you're...
Taina Brown she/hers (25:53.538)
Hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:07.969)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (26:14.32)
potential just increased a hundredfold, but mine decreased by 50%. Right? So it feels like a threat to me when in fact, it was a problem that there was that no one, that everyone in the room looked like me, but also why do we believe it has to be 12 seats? Could we not just increase the number of seats? But that's, think, because that hyper individualistic way we look at things that creates the scarcity mindset and the way capitalism creates a scarcity mindset.
Taina Brown she/hers (26:31.227)
Yeah
Becky Mollenkamp (26:42.17)
that every time we think about diversity, we don't think about more voices in the room. We think about fewer voices like mine in the room to make room for these other voices. When I wish we could find a way to shift that thing to all those voices can stay. We just want to bring in more voices that don't look like you. And I don't know how we do that, help people start to make that shift. But I really think that like a big part of that is a problem. And I think that's also why
Taina Brown she/hers (26:50.025)
Yeah
Taina Brown she/hers (26:59.71)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (27:12.654)
This fragile identity thing, this fragile ego is so prominent amongst white folks in particular because of that privileged identity. Because we are the most conditioned into this hyper individualism I have found. Like I find that often anyway, speaking from white culture and what I've noticed in America, we tend to be the least collective minded.
Taina Brown she/hers (27:12.904)
Mm-hmm Hmm
Becky Mollenkamp (27:41.86)
Whereas folks who have more marginalized identities tend to think more collectively for a lot of reasons that make sense because there's safety that comes when you're thinking collectively. And if you are in a position with less power, you need to be thinking about your safety more often. And when you have more privilege, you don't have to think about your safety as often. So it's easier to function in this, like, I just got to take care of me and mine. I don't have to worry about anybody else because I have that safety to do that. If I'm part of the queer community, if I'm part of a black community or some other, you know,
Taina Brown she/hers (27:51.57)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:10.96)
historically oppressed kind of community where safety is a very real concern at all times, then it's not enough for me to just think about myself. I have to think about how do we all band together to create safety for all of us. And so there tends to be less collective thinking amongst white folks. And I think that's also a big part of that, like keeps contributing to that threatened feeling around diversity or around anything, allowing anyone else to critique you because it's like,
Taina Brown she/hers (28:21.239)
Mm hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:38.824)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (28:40.208)
I don't have to think, I don't care what you think because it's only me. I'm an island and I don't have to worry about what anyone else thinks about what I have to say.
Taina Brown she/hers (28:46.424)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. A lot of that goes back to how this here in the US, right? And I think in a lot of European countries too, the political philosophies that have been the foundation of how government is structured, how the society is structured, how the economics is structured. Again, I was reading about this last night in the textbook, but...
It goes back to this 17th century idea about liberalism, right? And so the tenets of liberalism is like personal responsibility, individual responsibility in politics and economics and society. We saw a resurgence of this, That helped shape how this country was founded. And then I think after like the first two world wars,
there was a need for a more collective approach, right? And that's when we got things like welfare and social programs and things like that. And then in the eighties with Reagan coming in, there was a resurgence of this liberal political ideology. And that's where we get neoliberalism from, right? And so because it's so embedded in...
the systems that we operate in, politics, society, economics, right? It creates this competitive nature among people. Like you said, right? It's me or you, as opposed to it's us, right? We're in this together. And when you were talking about like just this entitlement of safety, like my wife and I do this thing.
Fridays we do true crime Fridays or we watch a true crime doc on Friday nights sometimes we take a break because it's just it's a lot like some of the stories are just so unhinged and and we also like to watch house hunters especially the international version and one thing that I have noticed over the years of like well we haven't been watching true crime for years it's only been a few months but we have been watching house hunter for
Taina Brown she/hers (31:01.834)
international for years. And one of the things that I have noticed is when it comes to like the way that like just white people operate in the world, right, they assume that they're safe wherever they go, right? They assume that it's going to be okay for them wherever they go. Like they will move to another country, never having been there, not knowing anything about the culture, not knowing the language.
Like basically going in socially blind and just think that everything is going to work out.
Becky Mollenkamp (31:40.24)
I it's not just even that they assume they'll be safe, they assume they will be catered to.
Taina Brown she/hers (31:44.897)
Yes, yes. And they get there and they're like, why is this so small? Why is the shower so small? Why can't I have everything I want for $600? And it's just...
It's always just mind-boggling to me. just like, would never ever dare to move. I wouldn't even travel to a new place without learning a few words of the language, without doing my research about what the politics are, learning the public transportation system, knowing where the embassy is.
There's so much that goes into just the way that I move around the world that some people just don't even have to do that extra work. And I'm just like, this is how we get true crime docs. because people assume.
Becky Mollenkamp (32:44.176)
Well, and in the words of Lovage, Lovie, a J.A. Jones, the caucasity to like that white audacity that she calls it the caucasity, which I think is hilarious because yeah, and it's so funny thinking about something like House Center International, which I also love. because my husband and I comment on that all the time, it's like, who do you think it's embarrassing ultimately in a lot of ways because you're like, this is why European other people in the world are like Americans are
Taina Brown she/hers (33:06.3)
It is.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:09.875)
They hate Americans.
Becky Mollenkamp (33:13.9)
obnoxious because we are, but it's that hyper individualistic. I, the world revolves around me problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (33:22.181)
Yeah, yeah, I remember reading a story about like, this was years ago, but like this white couple who decided to go backpack through Asia and ran out of money. So they started just like busking or like asking for change. I'm just like, this is not your home. Like these are not your people. Like what?
what kind of entitlement do you have to have to go to another country where you don't know anything about the culture, you don't know anything about the people, and you think you're just gonna get by on whatever, and then you don't, and now you're asking just regular, degular, everyday folks to take care of you financially because you didn't plan ahead, right?
Like what the fuck? That's fucking nervy.
Becky Mollenkamp (34:23.812)
And I'm not surprised by it because I see it start in kids so young. I see it in my sons. He's a white boy. I see it with his white male friends, but even also his friends of color who are male and girls who are white. Like I see it at this young age of this sense of entitlement already starting to form. And I don't think that's an inherent thing. It is a learned behavior. And I don't even think that it's learned
It's not like it's a, I don't know that it's as blatant as like if you're a kid who's hearing racial slurs at home, like that is a blatant, like I'm just teaching my kid to be racist. I think that we're learned, like we learned this in this subtle, yeah, these like insidious subtle ways from our earliest days that the more privileged identities we hold, like the easier the world is for us to exist inside of.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:04.833)
Great.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:08.24)
It's more insidious.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:21.994)
as we aren't challenged, we don't learn how to deal with challenges. And so I think it's really incumbent on folks, whatever privilege identities you hold, because as you said, like it all shifts, that shifts around and knowing, and because again, I think we tend to often sort of identify most with those most marginalized identities that we often forget where we still hold privilege. And I think it's important for us to be taking stock of that as parents.
Taina Brown she/hers (35:25.084)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (35:50.362)
to think about how am I making sure that my child has that contextual awareness of one honoring the reality of their experience because I don't want to dismiss, diminish, know, make my gaslight my child into believing that his very real hard experiences or whatever aren't real. And I understand the need for parents to do that. But what I think doesn't happen enough and where we kind of coddle our children and create entitlement is by
Taina Brown she/hers (36:03.54)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:09.732)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:20.292)
doing that piece without then the contextualizing of how that can be true and exist inside of a larger collective that has different experiences and that we need to honor all of that, right? And to be able to place yourself inside of that collective. Because we treat our children so hyper-individualistically and ourselves and everyone, we don't do that piece of the contextualizing inside of the collective. And that's where I think
Taina Brown she/hers (36:27.628)
Mm-hmm.
Taina Brown she/hers (36:36.819)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (36:48.336)
parenting is such an important piece of dismantling all of these systems. And I think that a lot of us well-meaning parents do a lot of internal work, especially those who hold the most identity, like most privileged identities. Those of us who are like the good white liberals or the good white progressives, or even like, well, like truly, think, not to toot my own horn, but I feel like I'm really doing like, like really in the fight socialists.
There's something that can happen with our kids because we have this deep love and wanting to protect them and all of that where that can be an area that I think a lot of us end up falling short on doing that additional work of making sure that our children that we do love them, that we do keep them safe. We do protect them. We do honor their realities and all that, but that we also make sure that we're not losing sight of helping them learn from an early age why they aren't entitled.
why they, what privilege they do hold, how their existence is part of a larger collective and how they need to use their privilege to help the collective and to recognize where maybe if they do have marginalized identities, how they can lean on the collective. But I just don't think that we always do enough.
Taina Brown she/hers (38:01.632)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I, it's like Nicole said in one of our recent episodes, like it starts at home, right? It starts at home. And I think another way that it starts at home and another way that this shows up is like in partnerships, right? In romantic relationships. And I...
hear stories. First of all, the bar is so fucking low for men, so fucking low. And most of them can't even, can't even like just meet that bar. But also, I hear stories, right, from of just like dates that my friends have been on. Other I see on social media, just like
women making excuses for their male partners and just like, that's, you know, that's just him. That's just the way he is. But he treats me really great, you know? And it's like, no, those things, right, right. Like those things aren't mutually exclusive. Like he might treat you great and treat everyone else and be an asshole to everyone else. Like he's really an asshole then, right? Like he just treats you great because you make the excuses for him and because you cater to him.
Becky Mollenkamp (39:04.334)
Just, it was just Joe, he's just joking around. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (39:23.355)
and because you feel some need in him that he has, which that's valid. Again, that is valid. And also what's happening over here, right? And I think when you are in a partnership with someone, it's so, and I've seen this in true crime docs also where women are just like, I don't know, he just snapped and all of a sudden he just wasn't the person that I married. And it's like.
No, he's always fucking been that person. You just probably chose to overlook it. And I get that there are psychopaths and sociopaths, right? Narcissistic abusers who are really, really good at hiding their true nature. That is a reality that some people fall into. But I think also sometimes it's this...
wanting so badly to be in a relationship with someone or wanting so badly to just be in a relationship that you just choose to overlook red flags, yellow flags, and then all of a sudden one day you wake up and you're just like, how the fuck did I get here? And I think it's really important to not make those excuses for each other. Like it's hard, right? But that's what being in a loving relationship is like.
My wife and I, not constantly, but we try to do a good job of calling each other out when we do say something that might be ableist or that might be a bit prejudice, right? Or if we feel like, have this idea, but it kind of feels wrong and I'm not sure if it is, we'll ask each other, is this, am I on track here? Am I being ableist right now or am I being prejudice right now?
Becky Mollenkamp (41:03.203)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:07.262)
We'll be honest with each other and say, yeah, right? But we created a space for us to have those conversations, right? Exactly without judgment, right? And say, yeah, that's kind of ableist right now. And we're like, okay. And then we might work on, okay, how can we reframe this? How can we pivot from this moment and move towards not.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:14.69)
And we need those safe spaces to be able to have those. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (41:34.909)
having that idea and things like that. But it's like, if you don't do that fucking work ahead of time in your relationships, right, whether it's with a partner, with your friends, with your family, like, and each there might be resistance, right? Or people might just decide, you know what, I don't want to have these conversations with you, right? And then at that point, you know whether or not that person values your relationship enough to have those conversations with you.
Becky Mollenkamp (41:53.104)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:03.136)
the relationship piece is interesting because this morning as I was thinking about this male ego, was thinking like in almost equal measure, I think women's fragile, fragile sense of self worth is equally problematic or, or I'm going to still I'm gonna put it slightly below the male ego, but I mean, also deeply problematic. Because those things end up being mutually reinforcing in a lot of ways, where because because you know, saying like, why would you be with this
Taina Brown she/hers (42:27.46)
Mm-hmm.
Becky Mollenkamp (42:32.559)
kind of man and like, I think there is this, the way society aims to make sure women have low self-esteem, low self-worth, we feel like we are made to believe that finding the perfect partner is part of filling our worth bucket. And so we will overlook things because we are so desperate to have our worth bucket, to have that sense of worth filled by some other person that allows us to present to the world like, look,
Taina Brown she/hers (42:49.415)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:00.762)
This person loves me, I'm good. Everyone notice I'm good because being single obviously is the worst thing for a woman. Obviously, what does that say about you? We hear it all the time and men love to use that on social media as an insult too. Like, I bet you can't get laid. I bet no man would love you. Like, right? Because that's the biggest insult to be a woman that men would reject. Nonsense, obviously. But that's how we are conditioned. And so that reinforces then for men.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:06.26)
Yeah. Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (43:20.196)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (43:27.822)
because women need to have this worth thing filled and will accept far less than we deserve, right? Far less than our worth should merit. We should have an equal partner. We should have someone amazing, but because we are conditioned to have such low self-esteem and self-worth, we take somebody who's far below that. expectations are too low, that bar you said. And then that allows men to have this inflated...
ego of like, I must be amazing because look at this amazing woman who's with me. Right. And so then they start to have this inflated sense of self. But the second that gets challenged, they freak out and they can't handle it because they are made to like feel like they have. I mean, in some ways, it's the same problem. I suppose it's low self-worth that on either side of the equation. But it's really interesting because those things I think are mutually reinforcing.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:15.541)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:22.262)
and are part of the problem. And then that's why this white woman problem is such a problem because of this proximity to like power. And it's like, well, if I'm, I can't be worth on my own, right? I'm not enough, but if I have a great white man with me, then together we have immense power and privilege. So anyway, I just think it's really all very interesting. And so much of it does get back to parenting, right? For the future of how to change the problem.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:38.801)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (44:50.788)
And then doing that internal work. And that's what I said to the, on my video today on LinkedIn, I know we're trying to finish up here. So what I said on my video to LinkedIn was for all the so-called male allies, those men who say they're an ally to women, to people of color, whatever, or who say they're engaged in the fight of trying to dismantle these systems or who say that they are, you know, also for liberation and they want to challenge all of this. They need to check their ego.
Taina Brown she/hers (44:52.302)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:18.906)
check for where do I have that fragile male ego showing up? Where am I not allowing other voices to be heard, silencing other voices, not allowing for critique or criticism, right? And if their immediate reaction is to get defensive and say, that's not me, I'm not like that, then that's a sign that you haven't done the work. In the same way as a white woman, if my immediate reaction to someone saying white women are a problem is to be like, but I'm not one of those or no, not me or whatever, then I'm not doing the work enough because
Taina Brown she/hers (45:36.249)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:44.973)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (45:48.002)
As a white woman, I have been swimming in the waters of white supremacy from the moment I came out of the womb. And it will be a lifetime's journey of continuing, because I continue to swim in those waters, of continuing to find and excavate and change that narrative for myself until I die. And I have to be committed to doing that. And in the same way, men need to be looking for that fragile ego thing showing up all the time until they die. And if you're not willing to do that, then you're not actually an ally.
Taina Brown she/hers (45:54.127)
Yeah.
Taina Brown she/hers (46:17.357)
Yeah, yeah, I 100 % agree. it's not about like, oh, I'm such a bad ally, because I think that getting into that guilt and that shame, it's still centering you, right? And so a lot of people think, oh, well, if I just stay in guilt or I stay in shame, you may not consciously think this, but like...
Subconsciously, you're still centering your feelings. You're still centering yourself, right? And so this is not to like guilt or shame anyone. This is to say, hey, let's come into relationship. But in order to be into right relationship with each other, you first have to be into right relationship with yourself. And being in right relationship with yourself means unlearning things, asking yourself the hard questions, not to stay in guilt and shame, but to grow out of that, right?
in order to have a healthy self-awareness about who you are and how who you are shapes your interactions with other people.
Becky Mollenkamp (47:29.626)
I agree. And thank you for sharing that. And I know we're wrapping up. I just want to share because I just saw it come across my email and this will be a few days old by the time this comes out. But I just think the example of what this looks like when we allow the fragile male ego to continue to go unchecked specifically, as you just mentioned about around health, because we have RFK junior now heading up the healthcare or how lighting up health in America.
and he is a avowed anti-vaxxer. Well, the first child just died of measles in Texas and this outbreak that's been going on unchecked in Texas and New Mexico, it's spreading beyond Texas now of measles, which is a disease that had been eradicated, largely eradicated, right? Like it is something that we haven't had to deal with. I had my MMR shot back in the eighties. Like this has been around forever and we haven't had to deal with this. And now here we are.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:26.192)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:28.24)
Because we're continuing to allow these kinds of people into power. Children are now dying of something that is they should not be dying from. And this is an unvaccinated child, which also then probably I'm going to go ahead and bet they got white parents who are like wellness people who think like, don't or religious or some form of like, I don't need that. And that child still shouldn't have died because normally we have enough herd immunity by enough of us being vaccinated that we even protect those who either aren't or can't.
Taina Brown she/hers (48:45.258)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (48:58.008)
And I should be clear, maybe the child's unvaccinated because they couldn't be, right? I don't know the answer. So I shouldn't jump to demonizing them. Perhaps the child couldn't be. But that's where the collective mentality comes back in of, I can get vaccinated to protect those who can't. And when we don't, when we lose sight of that, here's what happens. Measles is now something we have to deal with again.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:15.477)
Right.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:22.594)
And we weren't, we didn't have to deal. We got enough shit to deal with that. shouldn't be dealing with measles and TB yet here we are dealing with tuberculosis and measles. So take it seriously, do the work on yourself and help your children to develop this collective way of thinking and of confronting your privilege.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:27.23)
Right.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:42.484)
Yeah.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:43.98)
Anything else you want to share before we wrap up, Tayina?
Taina Brown she/hers (49:46.869)
no. No, I think we said it all.
Becky Mollenkamp (49:51.278)
Yeah. All right. Well, thank you for being my place. can come in. It's safe space to come and have these conversations and talk about these things, because like you said, I think that's really important.
Taina Brown she/hers (49:56.795)
Yeah.
Yeah, likewise. See y'all next week.