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Open Wounds. The NSFW podcast where we explore trauma of every shape and form. Join us as we hear from everyday people about their lives and learn from each other to move from surviving to thriving.
Candice (00:01)
Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Open Wounds podcast. On this week's episode we have with us a guest. Her name is Ingrid Hu Dahl. She is an author. She's a leadership and business coach. She also has a TED Talk. She was in several different music groups as you'll hear throughout our conversation doing like indie rock music.
She has a really unique story that I think a lot of people will identify with. She's a mixed race, queer woman of color who had ⁓ grown up in New Jersey and then transitioned to other places, but her mother was Taiwanese and both of her parents were academics. But she also was raised in a Christian environment as well. So she talks about how that impacted her coming out to her parents and.
her own navigating her sexuality and ⁓ basically figuring out how to find her voice and feel like she can be who she wants to be. I really loved her talking about her relationship to her parents and how she was able to find a way to repair and mend it ⁓ before her mother's passing. Her book is coming out June 11th.
which by the time this releases, the book will probably be available to purchase. I'm gonna put the link to her website where you can book coaching with her if you have a business or a leader and need business and leadership coaching. I'm also gonna, on the website link, you could purchase her book there as well. It's her memoir, so it goes basically, she says, from birth into ⁓ adulthood and how navigating
living in America as a biracial queer woman ⁓ and how she learned to fully embrace herself and live her truth. ⁓ I also will probably tag her on socials if you follow us on Instagram, Open Wounds Podcast. So there'll be a little snippet coming out where you can follow her ⁓ for her book.
I believe her book is called Sun Shining on Morning Snow. Let me make sure I'm getting, Sun Shining on Morning Snow. That's her book. So you can purchase that and you can also follow the books page on Instagram as well or other social media platforms. So I'm really grateful for her to come on and talk with us today. I hope you enjoy this week's episode. Please follow us. Please share this episode with somebody you think might love listening to Ingrid's story and ⁓ learning more about her book.
And thanks so much for listening. Have a great day.
Candice (02:55)
Welcome to the podcast, Ingrid. This is Open Wounds Podcast with Candice. I have a guest today. Her name is Ingrid Hudal, is that right? Yes, hi. Thanks. Ingrid is an author, she's also a coach, and she is a musician, and she has a lot of lived experience with dealing with trauma and overcoming and finding her way and finding her voice.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (03:05)
Yes. Hi, Candice. So nice to be here.
Candice (03:22)
⁓ I think her story is really fascinating. It's a story that I think I cannot personally speak to. So it's great that she can come on and share her experience with listeners who maybe aren't always identifying with what I'm talking about, ⁓ especially being mixed-race or being ⁓ from an immigrant family or being LGBTQ +, all those things that ⁓ I really want to advocate for and give.
the floor to and let people speak about because it's important that we you know, I was talking to a friend who was like her friends were talking about homeschooling and she was like, you know how hard that is like, can you be the queer person for your child? Can you be the Asian person for your child? Can you be the coach like the you know, the black coach, the basketball coach or whatever. She was giving a list of all these people and all these different things that when you narrow your kids experience, they don't get to learn and
Ingrid Hu Dahl (04:03)
Mmm.
Candice (04:19)
know, interact with other people. So I always think it's important that we keep exposing ourselves to people that aren't like us so that we can learn and empathize and connect with them and, you know, just learn as much as we can. So thanks, Ingrid, for being on.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (04:32)
That's great.
Thanks, Candice. And hi, everybody. Nice to meet you all.
Candice (04:36)
Yeah.
So I know you have a coaching practice. I guess the first question I had was kind of like, would you share a little bit about your life experience and your childhood and anything that you think is relevant to healing from trauma or personal growth?
Ingrid Hu Dahl (04:56)
Sure. So I wrote this book, Sun Shining and Morning Snow, and it starts very much with the beginning, how I was born, how my parents met. It was 1980 when I entered the world in February. My parents were very much in love. They met at Rutgers University. My mom was a graduate student. My father was undergrad. It was very much a tense time. think the US census.
had 3 % of married couples were interracial. This is just over a decade where this was legalized in the United States. And because Rutgers University is based in New Jersey, that's basically where I grew up in addition to Taipei, Taiwan, which you can get a lot of color from in the book. My childhood background, know, until my brother came into the world in 1986, I felt pretty
like ballsy and badass and like a kid who just sort of felt pretty confident walking around until bullying started showing up. And a lot of adults would interact with me, strangers at the grocery store, Bantams, gas stations, you name it. Every day I was asked, you what are you? And it was as if I...
wasn't seen as just a regular kid existing, coexisting as part of the community. ⁓ The real question is, what's your ethnic background? And trying to understand why I look different or I don't quite fit into a category. Or they would look at my parents and ask them pretty triggering questions, like asked my dad if he was in the service because they couldn't understand why he'd be married to an Asian woman. Or even some guys who were pretty gross would
insinuate that he was interested in some sort of erotic servitude inclined women, which you can imagine is really, really ⁓ offensive. And people treating my mom, who's the breadwinner and eventually became a tech pioneer, who was full of ⁓ fashionista and kindness and brightness. And she was a dreamer and a tech pioneer. was amazing that she could be all those things.
They assumed for her that she was just looking for a green card, which is not, I mean, she came here for grad school, right? ⁓ Or that she was seeking some sort of white knight. Like she had this sort of like, please save me. ⁓ None were true. And in my household, what also startled me is it was very normal for my dad to be cooking and cleaning and singing and dancing and my mom to be gone for stretches at a time on business trips that brought her to Europe.
Candice (07:21)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (07:45)
And so I would go to kids' houses as a kid, like probably more like six or seven. ⁓ And the parents would treat me odd. I knew it. I knew they were treating me differently than the other friends. It was palpable. You could feel it and you witnessed it. That didn't feel great. But oftentimes a mom would be home and I'd be like, wow, this is so cool that your mom is home. Is she back from a trip? Like, you know, she just come back from Copenhagen. I heard, you know,
My mom thinks it's really cool. she's like, no, my mom's always here. I'm like, well, where's your dad? Like, why is your mom in the kitchen? Oh, my dad is at work. I'm like, your dad works? So even all of those things were kind of flipped in my household. And it just kind of felt like being in this world, even my neighborhood, I was under a spotlight. I was always overexposed, always sort of invading my boundaries to be.
Candice (08:24)
Okay.
Hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (08:46)
asked, demanded what my ethnic background was through the questions, what are you and where are your people from? Which still to this day, I sometimes get asked and I'm always like, oh, wow, let's see, it's probably number 1,222 times I've been asked that. my parents were young enough to be really naive that their love was the only thing that mattered, right?
But there are real lived experiences in choosing each other and that love came with a lot of challenges and not just social challenges or cultural clashes, but also even within the family. So I document that in the book as well for readers to get in my shoes. I love how you were saying, Candice, you're like, you know, we can't be all of these different kinds of perspectives and people with.
know, multiple complex layered experiences. But I hope my book is one way that you get into my shoes from birth to current state and go through the trials and tribulations of my mother, daughter, challenging experience, especially with me coming out. She really had a hard time with it. A lot of stuff around my father's reaction to not being able to control me and control my sexuality as a younger person.
⁓ And in the end, we all somehow come to a place of transformation, reconnection, forgiveness and love, and then even beyond death and how that transcends into this other dimension. So I know that was a lot in that first question, but ⁓ that is basically an aspect of my childhood. And you can read a lot more in the book. I detail so much of these micro-experiences for the reader.
Candice (10:27)
Yeah. ⁓
Yeah, I love when I'm learning about these things because number one, I can see how like maybe, for example, my parents would have been the person who said, where are you from? Because we're like, you don't look like us, duh. Like it's this stupid kind of curiosity without a filter. Like this, it's to know everything about other people, which if, mean, there's been times too where I've realized, I said that to someone.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (10:52)
Yeah. ⁓
Mmm.
Candice (11:09)
And I didn't mean it to come across that way. But when I'm able to listen to the other person's side of it, I can see, wow, I didn't realize saying something like that would be implying that I'm othering that person, right? Like, it may have just been like,
Ingrid Hu Dahl (11:12)
Hmm.
Right, right. Yeah.
Candice (11:28)
I am curious to learn about you and I want to know more about you, but instead of saying it like that, it comes out like all stupid and clunky, right? And then I also love hearing about things where I'm really relating to them, right? Like you're talking about your parents dealing with your sexuality. And even though I'm not, you know, LGBTQ, I have had experiences where my parents tried to repress and control my sexuality and make me conform and all these things. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (11:34)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (11:59)
It's so funny, I was watching that Girls 5 Ever show on Netflix and there's a character, Summer, and she goes through this purity thing with her parents and I'm like, my God, that was my life. And so it was like, you can see when you read about other people or listen to their stories, like, ⁓ we do have commonalities. know, it's not like these people are so different and you know, their lives must be so like.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (12:09)
shit.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (12:24)
obscure and something I don't completely understand where you can find common ground. And I feel like that helps us understand people and empathize and connect with them. And so I think that's really fascinating that. you grew up in New Jersey. It sounds like your parents were very academic and that they were very forward thinking, especially for that time. And like you said, they were.
they didn't realize they were going to be pioneers when they signed up for this, right? Like they were in love and wanted to be together. And then the world was like, what are you doing? This isn't what we're used to. This isn't what we think of. And even as you said, like the question about the service.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (12:59)
Yeah.
Candice (13:05)
That's something that I was like, yeah, I probably would have been like, hmm, what's her dad in the military? Because you see that so often that you assume that that's how people meet each other and not that your mom would be this amazing tech genius that came to America to go to grad school. I think the other part of it is your parents were such groundbreakers and pioneers that they're like decades ahead of.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (13:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Candice (13:32)
the other families that you were around, right, where the mom's always at home and the dad is the one working, like, it was very progressive of them. And so your community was just kind of reeling from people behaving in ways that they weren't comfortable with or used to seeing, you know, which now I'm sure their children's children or whatever are all doing what your parents were doing back then, Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (13:32)
Hmm. Hmm.
That would be pretty cool. Yeah,
I really appreciate that perspective that it was progressive and pioneering. I think that's a wonderful way to see it. I felt oftentimes like we were a bit targeted because there was some envy. Like, how dare they get to be happy? How dare they get to be climbing the corporate ladder or having the means to like buy a house? You know, these kinds of
attitudes of I am somehow not given what I'm owed or what I expected or, you ⁓ know, it's sort of like when we deal with our own internal chatter or hearing like the whispers that are like actually kind of harmful messaging as opposed to challenging and being curious about those. And I love what you said about, yeah, maybe I would have like asked that too. And that's exactly why I would love people to read
my story and be like, ⁓ there are other questions to ask. I can say like, you know, I just noticed like you and I was so curious to learn more about you. Like if you're interested in, you know, taking time and some people are like, I don't have time and that's okay. But to not be angry or embarrassed or feel shame around that is also something we all have to reckon with. My parents were funny. You know, in some ways they were so progressive, but then they were not.
Like there was this switch where they wanted to shed, I think, all the onlookers and the tropes that were put on them. And they just wanted to have these obedient children who made it proof that they made the wise choice. They're a happy family. So things started getting kind of wonky. And when my dad sort of lost his like, horsey girl daughter, ⁓
Candice (15:29)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (15:48)
I started realizing that my father was still, he was not outside the domain of ⁓ sexism and how men can be threatening and scary. And he really much wanted to be respected, but he didn't want his little girl to grow up. ⁓ And what came out of that was actually at times quite scary. It's like, wow, dad, you don't own me. What's going on?
And with my mom, she went really hardcore into Christianity. And that was also kind of like a ⁓ shoving down for both me and my brother that you must believe in what we believe and conform in this way. And that, is very scary because there was something underneath all of that that's very human. And I would have loved to have had my parents share.
Candice (16:36)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (16:44)
what they actually needed and why they were so desperate in these moments, whether I want to still feel like a dad and not that I have to let go of this real human who's independent and that I can't control. Like she is who she is. She's a bold force, like be free and be you. And with my mom, that she needed so badly a connection and a lifeline in the most difficult experiences she had, which were predominantly homogenous.
to have that Sunday with Asian people at an Asian church, the sermon being in Chinese, her being able to eat Chinese food together, it was a different kind of need that she had, but unfortunately the religion side of it came barreling down into our family and really created a lot of fracturing.
Candice (17:38)
Yeah, yeah, completely, because I was raised evangelical Christian and so I totally get that how, you know, and there was somebody the other day that was talking about like, the church is such community and the church is such a place for security and support. And I was like, well, it can be in the best of circumstances, but that doesn't mean that it's without fault or without question or it's blameless. You know, I think
Ingrid Hu Dahl (17:42)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
That's right, it can be, yeah.
Candice (18:06)
especially modern day Christianity in America is so hyper focused on controlling women. even though our congregation had female pastors and we had females that were allowed to speak on the stage, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't purity culture and repressive ideas and that the man is the head of the household and you need to submit to your husband or you submit to the man of the household. So there was all these things that
Ingrid Hu Dahl (18:14)
Yes.
Mmm.
gosh, yes.
Candice (18:36)
And as I've gotten out of it as an adult and kind of like reformed all my thoughts, I'm like, it's really fucking damaging to the guys too. Because not every guy wants to be in charge and boss people around and take control of everything and micromanage their family. Some guys kind of would rather the woman.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (18:46)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Candice (18:58)
take a lot of the reins, right? And so when you have these so rigid stereotypical roles that you're forcing everyone into, ⁓ it's just harmful for everyone. I think a lot of times we think, the men are benefiting, which they are, but some of them, it's also going against what they inherently want and they are being forced to conform to. But yeah, I think it's so interesting that your mom was craving that community and that sense of like,
Ingrid Hu Dahl (19:03)
Mmm.
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (19:28)
feeling like home, like I'm around these people who look like me and I get to speak my language and I get to eat the foods I like. But yet ⁓ it was kind of tied to this really toxic and damaging, you know, form of Christianity, which whenever I meet somebody who had an experience with Christianity and they still are like grateful for and thankful for it, I'm always like, God bless. wish I could say that because it's not at all. Yeah, not at all for me.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (19:29)
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
It was very much a, it felt like even as a young kid, a bit of a farce, you know, like a sheep, enclosed wolf. There was a lot of things even about other churches we went to, or it like the pastor was caught banging his secretary in his office, you know, and it's like some other guy was caught having a bunch of porn on his computer. And you're just like, man, you know,
The same social issues that we're kind of existing in is not escapable just because you put it into church. It is still part of this existence. And to have somebody up there probably feeling good about themselves if they're making it about them, if it's ego-driven and you're already fucked up and you have issues like you're banging your secretary,
or you're watching porn and then giving the sermon about, you know, being abstinent. It's just like the hypocrisy was over the roof. And I could see it as young kid and probably because we were always treated like outsiders. That's my dog. just came in. We were always treated as outsiders or even scapegoated. And often that fell on me because I was, you know, attractive.
And no one should find a little kid attractive, by the way, but whatever, it was very outspoken. And I think men are just not inherently coming into a space like that and saying, I'd love to learn about you and I have all the respect for you and I don't see you in any way. That is like evil.
Candice (21:39)
Yeah,
it's, totally understand what you're saying because I think the dichotomy is like, first, the church is creating a habitat. I say the church largely as like Christianity in America. It's creating a habitat that's attracting people who need to hide their shame, right? Like they probably already have a lot of shame and guilt and suppressed sexuality stuff happening, right? Like we so often see these people, politicians and pastors who are
Ingrid Hu Dahl (21:57)
Yeah.
Mmm. Mmm. Mmm-hmm.
Candice (22:08)
Condemning gay people and then eight months later they're caught in a bathroom with a dude like we see this and it's not a trope because the system has created this dynamic where people are hiding they're using the church as like a covering right to to kind of escape what they feel and deny it and shame themselves and guilt themselves and I always am like, you know if they would just leave the church and have some self-acceptance what they're doing is not usually that horrible. It's just like yeah, go to therapy and learn. Yeah
Ingrid Hu Dahl (22:13)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
Or go to therapy. Like, get help. It's okay.
Candice (22:38)
Yeah, like I'm not saying looking at
Ingrid Hu Dahl (22:38)
We all are hurting. There's stuff.
Candice (22:41)
porn is bad or, you know, like having an affair, you are gonna do some damage. But I think if there was like that shame and guilt and Christianity thing lifted, could you just have gotten a divorce, right? Like there's all these things that start to play in with the religion aspect of it. And then again, with the, we just blame the women.
Like it's your fault, you're too seductive and you're too good looking. And it's like this reinforcing negative spiral where we're blaming the women, we're shaming them, we're guilting them, we're making it all about them because the men are repressing their own sexuality. And I find it so fucking hilarious that when I left the church, because the church was all like, men think about sex 9,000 times a day and you have to guard yourself because all they want to do is fuck you basically, right? And so...
Ingrid Hu Dahl (23:02)
Yeah. Right.
Totally.
Candice (23:30)
When I left the church and I started meeting guys who were not Christian, guys who were just like doing their thing and getting to know them and talking to them, they're like, I don't think about sex all the time. And they didn't even like, they weren't the one pushing to try to have sex with me. So my brain started to like break a little bit. Like everything I've been taught is a lie. Like the world like out there isn't constantly just trying to have an orgy. It's not like that at all. Right. And so.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (23:34)
Mm-hmm.
huh. Mm-hmm.
you
Candice (24:00)
I think it's just, like you said, such an ⁓ environment that creates these things ⁓ that are not benefiting anyone. I think that leads really well into you becoming a musician and the rock and, was it punk rock that you were in, a punk rock band?
Ingrid Hu Dahl (24:13)
Mmm.
I guess, know, we liked punk rock and that was definitely an early ⁓ music genre that I really liked, but it's more kind of like indie rock, know, riot girl, kind of dancey. But yeah, music is funny because in some ways it ties to Christianity. The only thing I really liked about church was the music. I liked harmonizing in the beginning. I played piano. I grew up playing piano. Very, very stereotypical Asian there, but.
Candice (24:28)
Hmm.
Okay.
Hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (24:48)
Alas. ⁓ And then I also really love the food. I love eating. a, you know, in the book, there's a very endearing phrase of rice bucket being a rice bucket, just like hoovering food in. But music, when I started playing music, probably, which is not in the book, it was maybe in my senior year of high school, I started
Candice (24:58)
Okay. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (25:13)
playing songs and sort of writing lyrics and singing along with a guy friend who played acoustic guitar and he was so sweet. His name was Brian. And what was interesting is I noticed that I felt very uncomfortable and insecure about being in a space where my voice mattered in that way and I could put myself vulnerably up on a stage, so to speak. It was very uncomfortable. And I see this all the time because I've worked with a lot of girls
you know, at various rock and roll camp for girls. ⁓ I see this is with musicians. And at the time, there weren't a ton of access to seeing women in this genre of like indie rock. This is pre 2000s where suddenly we see a lot more. And thank goodness we have like the yayayas and riot girl and stuff. But when I was growing up, I had limited access. So I found that I had a long journey ahead.
to really make decisions around my voice and to what extent I was going to get comfortable with having an amplification of my voice. Like, is this mic, is this a safe space for me? Because what I was seeing was men were like, this is my thing, this is my instrument, not yours, not yours, not yours, don't wanna hear you, wanna look at you on stage, definitely wanna look at you on stage, but this is ours.
Candice (26:19)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (26:40)
At least that's what I saw growing up as a teenager.
My first band and I got together. The beauty was that the person pushing me to be in a band was South Asian Indian, a punk rock kid named Prickset. And he was like, come on, come on, come on, let's jam, let's jam. And when we finally jammed, and this is at the time where I'm in college, we go to a friend of his who's this amazingly kind Greek guy. We're all still friends. This is 25 years ago or more.
Candice (26:58)
You
Ingrid Hu Dahl (27:15)
And we end up going into his basement where he has this kind of like amazing oasis of instruments and synths and that first jam session, we write this kick-ass song called Waves and Generation. And very soon after we've written several songs, we got signed to Cult Hero Records, which started this whole chapter of my life.
I started learning and playing bass for a label mate called Liz Moore. Then I joined an all-girl feminist band from San Francisco called Boy Scout. went on a really long 32-day tour with them. And then my last band was a dance duo called Rad Pony. And all these bands you can access on streaming services, which is some of which is new. We just recently put those up. I think what's fascinating, because you didn't necessarily ask the question around
the stage, expressing yourself as a woman and being like a badass and thrashing around a bass guitar or playing synth is rad. Like it finally became a place where this is home and you're charting the performance too. You're feeling the flow, you're performing, you're handling all the crazy stuff that's happening behind what the audience doesn't see, tech issues, et cetera. Like it's amazing. Somebody misses a note, somebody just jumped to the chorus, like what?
Candice (28:24)
Mmm.
Mm. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (28:42)
You manage all that and you have to do it really calmly. But what I started not liking is how
over sexualized you can become to your audience. And in one moment, which I do write about in the book, is a female promoter got on stage at a concert and then just grabbed me and made me make out with her. She just tongued me right then and there. And I was like, Jesus, or being on tour and overhearing girls say like, I'm going to have sex with her. No, I am. And I'm like, I don't want to have sex with anybody right now. I'm so tired. I'm like, under slept, hungry.
Candice (29:19)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (29:21)
exhausted
like come on like if you you know trying to lock the doors you're like my god what the hell like no no no that is not great like that overexposure and ⁓ it wasn't please yeah
Candice (29:31)
Yeah.
I could see how like it started as like a rebellion type. It can be
very feeling, very rebellious from what you came from. Like be a good little girl. Don't disappoint your parents conform to Christianity. It feels kind of like a swing over to the other side. But then anytime we have that drastic like movement, we realize like, ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (29:45)
That's right.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (29:55)
This isn't that cool either. Like there's things about this really extreme opposite version of what I was raised to be. And now how do I come back to neutral? Like incorporating those really awesome things about like owning my voice and being the center of attention and taking charge and being in control of what I say and what people hear of me. But also like, wait, now I'm still being sexualized in a way that I don't want to be. How do I get back to a place where I...
Ingrid Hu Dahl (30:17)
Mm-hmm.
Candice (30:23)
I have ownership of what's happening to me.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (30:26)
Yeah, and I finally did. it sort of like, if it was a pendulum, it landed rightly so in this bold truth. Still kind of rebellious, still edgy, but I felt a lot more confident in how I could navigate, especially in Rad Pony. Like, ⁓ we are having a good time. It is very much playful. And beyond that, I have loved being on the stage as a public speaker.
as somebody who's talking about leadership development now in my career, sharing these stories now with my book, the stage is still a home, but it's the right kind of spotlight. Does not feel like I'm being othered, objectified, or a character to behold.
Candice (31:11)
Yeah, yeah, and I think that unfortunately for white people looking at Asian people, that is a thing where they're like, ⁓ this is like the geisha trope, right? Or the anime trope where it's like the Asian woman is more sexualized, I think, than a lot of other cultures. And so I can see how that was something that was like an extra layer that you had to overcome. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (31:23)
Mmm.
Candice (31:36)
And I think too, like you said, your voice. I think the other thing, at least for me that I've noticed as I've gotten older, because I'm getting wrinkles and my hair is going gray or whatever, there's kind of like...
a lowering of this intensity of me being hypersexualized all the time and I've gained some weight and I'm like, this feels so nice. Like, it feels so nice not to be like constant and I'm not trying to be cocky about what I looked like when I was younger, but it is very intense to be constantly objectified and constantly feeling like you need to.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (31:54)
Mmm.
Yeah.
Candice (32:13)
monitor every single interaction that's coming your way, especially for you as a lesbian. It's not only coming from men, but it could also be coming from women too. Like you are an object that I want to use. And so I've really, yeah, I've really enjoyed aging since it's kind of like helped pump the brakes on that, you know.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (32:25)
Mm. That's what I did not like. Yep.
it too. Yeah,
it's so funny, you know, that you say that I haven't been hit on by a man in a really long time, which is great. I am not complaining at all. But you're right in that it feels like you can kind of exist and people see right through you or not really looking at you. I think that can feel like, wow, that is nice. It's a nice break. But however, I was at ⁓ a car wash the other day and I was chuckling and shared this with my wife after I'm like, no, get
Candice (32:41)
Okay. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (33:02)
get this, it's so hilarious, get that, you know. I was pulling up, paid for the car wash and sweet man was like, hey, it's really hot out and you're hot. And I'm like, I had just come from a workout. I'm like, yes, I'm sweating. He's like, oh, no, I mean you're hot. I'm like, temperature? You know what I mean? So it was really funny. And I thought that was, cause I was so not used to it. Of course he meant that I was sweaty cause I was. No, he meant I was attractive.
Candice (33:15)
you
I'm
Ingrid Hu Dahl (33:29)
So I told my wife, she laughed and laughed and she's like, yeah, well, mean, all those things can be true. I'm like, okay, cute, ⁓
Candice (33:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah. And so you went through this musical career and you've kind of come to a place now where you've done Ted Talks and you're writing. So how did you transition to being like, OK, I've done this thing where I'm out and being the center of attention and I have control of my voice. How did you land on deciding to write a book and what did you hope to accomplish through that?
Ingrid Hu Dahl (33:50)
Thank
Mm.
You know, a lot of my musical career kind of was in my 20s, and I at the same time had full time jobs and NGOs, and I was a guest lecturer at various universities or an adjunct professor. ⁓ So that's all happening at the same time. ⁓ From from there is also doing a lot of grassroots like creating curriculum and engaging with a lot of these global rock and roll camp for girls.
That was a huge part of my graduate studies and kind of catapulted my interest in learning and development, leadership development, how to support this next generation of leaders, and especially like a huge range, know, eight to 18, like transitioned adulthood, 18 to 24. So it's constantly experimenting with how do we find ways for people to tell their story, to have representation, to honor their identity.
and learn a skill that can help either sustain a family if that's what they want, get into tech if that's what they want, or have a creative outlet and learn game design or production or graphic design or even music. How do we help bridge the gap from school into career? And what's interesting is I very much had that kind of
Yay, band stuff, all these things are happening, but moved to San Francisco for a job. And it changed, you my music's chapter sort of came a bit to an end a little after that, maybe a year two. And it was all about focusing on my career development. So we come to this place now, and I know you're going to ask me this question around what got me to write my memoir. So it sort of relates. Three years ago,
my mother died of cancer. And it's very dramatic. Like in the book I document, it's like during COVID, it's really hard to get to Taiwan during that time. It's a suffering kind of very aggressive cancer that she's grappling with. ⁓ And yet she's finishing a third master's degree. I mean, she's just amazing. When she died four months later, I started writing this book. And so,
For my career side, people were like, if you're gonna write a book, you're probably gonna write about leadership development or your career or something for this next generation or women of your age group, like to inspire them or to help them learn from what you've learned. like, I totally appreciate that you would see me writing a book like that, but I need to write a book laying bare what my journey has been and to include my mom in it because...
Candice (36:28)
Hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (36:51)
She was somebody to remember and to learn from. And she's no longer here to write her story. So I have to write this story for both of us, truly. And it is my story. It's a lot about my mom too, but I also realize, you know, life is unpredictably short. You never know. So why not share this that maybe would.
drive some more curiosity and connection and more humanity, especially in like what's happening in this world today. I wanted to give a bit of myself, but also serve as a gift for people to say, you know what, I should call my mom. Or I should really ask that question. Like when I was going through that traumatic experience, what might it be like if I slowed it down? Like Ingrid was doing that. She was like going back.
and slowing it down when that kid called her a half piece of shit or when those guys followed her in the car, she really slowed it down. She showed us how it was terrifying and your amygdala goes like ape shit. But if I went back there and I felt safe enough to do so, what might I learn? That's the kind of stuff that I think our stories can inspire. And that's exactly what I hope my book does and why I wrote it.
Candice (38:13)
Yeah, you bring up two things. One is I've heard authors who do memoirs say it's like having like five years of therapy in one go. Like it's very intense and you're like ripping off all the band-aids and digging up everything at once to kind of get it onto paper. ⁓ So I know for the people listening who are dealing with their own traumas, know, if you've identified with that, like it's possible to use journaling or things like that to help you process. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (38:24)
Hmm
Candice (38:42)
The other thing I noticed is a lot of people who write memoirs wait until one or both of their parents has passed. And I don't know if you want to explain your reasoning why. And you kind of did that you wanted to tell your mom's story and you didn't want her legacy to be forgotten. But I think there is also a sense of like, I can speak freely without a judgment, without them going, my God, I can't believe you said that. You know what I mean? There's a little bit more of breathing room.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (38:49)
Mmm.
Mmm.
Candice (39:11)
to speak the truth in an unfiltered way when the person's not actually with us anymore, right? So if you want to talk a little bit about how you found the therapeutic process and how you dealt with not having your mom's basically a voice talking to you as you were writing it or releasing it.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (39:16)
Hmm.
Sure.
Fascinating when my mom is alive writing a book wasn't on the top of my list So her death actually created or sparked the idea and the need to Write like I just you know didn't think I was going to write a book and especially this early in my life and career But it just shifted everything. It was like YOLO, you know you this is one life you never know when it's gonna end and
Why not now? Why not? Why not? And I also had a really supportive wife who helped invest in it because it's not cheap to write a book. need a writing coach, which is really helpful, and a publisher and substantive editors and all different kinds of editors and the team that you have to build, which is lovely. Yeah, it's an investment. I would say.
Candice (40:09)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (40:26)
Writing this book really helped me with my grief. I felt like I had done a lot of really good work with therapy to heal my own stuff. And I watched my mom heal before she died. And we talked about inherited, ⁓ like I would describe sometimes when I was really triggered or hurt or felt like I was being, ⁓
betrayed in some way and it could be small but suddenly I'd find myself in this sort of well felt like I was at the bottom of the well and not long before my mom died I was brought it up to her because you know there's not much time left and I was like you know sometimes I go through this thing it feels like a well and she listened to me
And it was such an incredible moment because she was like, Bey, that well is mine. It's not yours. I'm sorry that you fell into it. And I was like, it always felt old. like, how did this thing get so long and deep? like, it just felt ancient. She's like, yeah, that's mine. But it gave me the permission to be the one who like,
slowly changed it with therapy. I could go in the well and suddenly like make it be like a, ⁓ maybe this is not a sad place. It could be like a reflective place. And then slowly, slowly fill it gently, not fast, but slowly fill it up with dirt and allow it to be kind of put at peace. Like I don't need the well. Like it's not serving me and my mom is out of it too. And we don't want anyone else to fall into this well.
Candice (41:50)
Hmm
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (42:11)
So that was really powerful. think that the other pieces, it's funny, my dad and brother, like we've survived, you my mom. So we exist and are trying to recreate the balance because it's been off, you know, suddenly we're a three legged stool. And so what's funny is that my brother and actually my dad couldn't get through chapter one. Like he just struggled with his grief and he only recently did he read the whole book and he's like, it was surprisingly uplifting. like,
Candice (42:25)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (42:41)
Thank goodness. Because there's some hard stuff in there about him too. And he was like, it's OK, Ingrid. You have my permission to write whatever you want. I'm like, OK. But my brother would be like, hmm, I don't know if you should write that part about mom because she's dead and she can't actually validate if that's true. And so there are some things that my brother helped very thoughtfully with my mom in mind.
Candice (42:59)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (43:07)
you know, to cut out or to reconsider or shift. He's like, tell your story. Don't assume stuff about mom. Like, OK. But it was. And I think what's amazing is when you write and put yourself out there, there's dozens of versions and manuscripts and the people who lean in and care, your family, those who are your friends, your mentors, their feedback. Like, this is not a story that was written in isolation.
Candice (43:13)
That's a good point. Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (43:37)
It required so many eyes on it and so much feedback.
Candice (43:43)
Yeah, I think that's an excellent point, especially with sibling experiences, because I'm the oldest of four and we'll bring up a memory or something that happened and each of us has like a different version of that memory. And I'm going, wait, you don't remember it this way? And they're gonna, they go, no, I thought this and this and this happened. And I'd be like, ⁓ wait, is my memory wrong? Did it happen that way? And so it's so funny how.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (43:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (44:10)
each of us, our brains process and store the information in a different way and different pieces of things stick out to us that might not have stuck out to somebody else or that memory might have been like super impactful for me and they didn't even notice it was happening. Right. So it's I always think it's interesting to like have those sibling conversations, especially about, you know, things that we felt were traumatic or depressing or life altering. And then
Ingrid Hu Dahl (44:27)
Right.
Candice (44:40)
kind of help that like have them help us reframe it in a new light you know ⁓ which is so fascinating and I think you know like you said it was I'm sure such a relief and a blessing to feel like your dad was like go ahead put whatever you need to do in there because I know so many people's parents would be like I don't want that out there and I don't want you talking about our family this way and so I think that's so nice that he was able to be supportive of you in writing this.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (44:59)
Mmm.
Yeah, we've been on a really long journey together as father, daughter, and as a family. So I appreciate his support, but it took many years of working through our stuff, his stuff, my stuff, mom's stuff, John's stuff to get to where we are. it's kind of amazing to go through what my mom would like. like, you kind of have to go through a lot of
fire to get to be pure gold was the idiom that she would bring up a lot. And I wrote about it as well. And she definitely came out as like pure gold. Like I couldn't believe how much transformation she had had in just 67 years. ⁓ It's remarkable, especially with how much she held in that struggle of her immigrant experience. And she was just broken down all the time and really kind of allowed
that brokenness to break her spirit at times in her life. ⁓ And she completely was able to repair that even in the darkest times, she finally was like chose transformation. She chose to let go of things that were harming her and harming me. And I'm speaking very much about like my coming out my like, hey, I'm going to marry this, this amazing person. I'd love you to come to my wedding. She couldn't she wouldn't
She was so upset. She got to a point where she even blamed her illness on me being gay. I mean, it was wild. Like half the time, I couldn't even imagine. I was like, is this my life? Like for real? Are you going to say, I reject what you just said. Like I'm not going to absorb that. But unfortunately, that's going to hurt you more than me. Cause I don't want to reject you from my life, but I'll be waiting for you when you're ready. And I will forgive you.
Candice (46:52)
Yeah, yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (47:00)
So figure it out.
Candice (47:01)
Yeah.
Yeah, which I think is so such something I hear a lot from people who are LGBTQ plus is like, they're coming out there being their authentic selves, they're being vulnerable with their family and sharing, like, this is who I am, this is who I feel like I've always been. And then the family's rejecting or like there becomes this rift or like a chasm that can't be crossed like thinking of my own brothers and my mom's religious beliefs, like
Ingrid Hu Dahl (47:28)
Mm.
Candice (47:30)
they're still at a place where they don't really have much of relationship because of her saying, is wrong, you can't live like this, I don't approve of you this way. ⁓ So I think that shows like so much depth and growth on your parents part that they were able to eventually, you know, it may have taken them longer than you would have liked, but eventually they did get to that place where you guys were able to rebuild, which I think gives hope to a lot of people because so many times it's just this
Ingrid Hu Dahl (47:38)
Hmm.
You
Candice (48:00)
immense grief of not only am I trying to be who I want to be, I've had to sacrifice my family in order to have this life that I want to live, to have a wife or to be openly out or whatever it is to be trans, that you're basically like having to cut off your roots to move forward. So I think that's really beautiful that your family and you were able to find a new path forward and
Ingrid Hu Dahl (48:07)
Mm-hmm.
Candice (48:27)
be supportive of each other. Because I don't think that that's currently the norm, especially in America where there's so much political and religious stuff pushing it like we're going to ban these things, we're going to pass laws, we're going to undo the things that we did, the progress that was made. So ⁓ I think that's really great that your parents have made that journey and made the progress.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (48:41)
Hmm.
I am too. Honestly, I'm so relieved and thankful. But it's interesting, related to what you're saying about the current political climate and how it's like so sad and so impacting and targeting the queer community again. And you're like, why do people care? Like, we just want to love who we love. Come on. But one of the arguments I made with my parents, which I thought was crystal clear and like, yeah, totally. I see that. I see that parallel. ⁓ They could not see it.
Candice (49:08)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (49:21)
And I want to share this with your listeners and people who are watching that my parents, right, it was illegal to be in an interracial marriage in 1967. Like that was the turning point, right? There was a whole thing similar to the Supreme Court kind of saying yes to like gay marriage. Okay. So it's very similar. And my parents experienced
society's intense tsunami of reactions and experiences and like, my God, how could they, know, huh, from both sides, right? So it wasn't like my Asian side was thrilled. They called my dad a white barbarian. They were like, my God, how could you do this to the family? You know, and my father's side was very much like, an Asian, like what? So they had that stuff too.
Candice (50:05)
No. ⁓
Ingrid Hu Dahl (50:18)
And yet they chose to love each other and it was very painful for them when they didn't have the acceptance of the family. And it was miraculous this one summer where my mom's parents out of what seemed like maybe nowhere finally give her permission after watching this like summer where they're having these really expensive phone calls back then in like late seventies.
Candice (50:46)
Yeah, it was
a couple dollars a minute.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (50:48)
Yeah,
and like she's writing these letters every day and she's receiving letters every day all the way from New Jersey, all the way to Taipei at that time, know, crying, crying, crying. And they're like, wow, this seems kind of legit. And we're the ones kind of keeping her away. So it was a summer break and they were like trying to pull her out of college or sorry, of graduate school because they didn't like this threat of her wanting to marry.
Candice (51:14)
Okay.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (51:16)
and be in love with this white bar parent. know, meanwhile, my dad's like at Mason Grove School of the Arts, like singing and dancing. like, I don't, okay. And just loved my mom and was the best, you know, son-in-law I think they could have ever asked for. But I would bring up this parallel to my parents, like, look, this is the same thing happening, but for me, your daughter.
And what's different about this is you chose to still not give me the acceptance and the approval, not that I was seeking it. But wow, like, come on, you of all people, I would expect to understand what this is like. You might not have understood what being mixed race was.
Candice (52:03)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (52:11)
And that had its own grievances and challenges. And I didn't have a guide or an elder to speak with and to empathize with me and say, hey, it's all good. Here's what's happening. This is the language around this. These are the dynamics. ⁓ Here, let me support you and hug you. They didn't understand that. But I figured that they could understand the similarity of my queerness and my choice to be in love with this woman who ended up being in
Candice (52:32)
Hmm.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (52:39)
incredible daughter-in-law, similar to my father, and it took them years. But they eventually came around. So I just want to encourage people, like, look for the similarities. Like, if, you know, there's probably in every single person listening to this, a young rebel inside. And probably in every single person listening, there's also some pain. And if the two work,
Candice (52:40)
them.
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (53:09)
in ways that are actually not pushing our comfort zone to expand, to let us flow through fear and get to this other side of transformation and growth and living and being our true selves. Hopefully those true selves are radiant and bringing other people along, caring for humanity. That's the work. That's the work we have to do. And when I see all these, this kind of
Candice (53:30)
Yeah.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (53:35)
hate or let's create more laws like the let's also look at history like the history of exclusion, you know, the China Exclusion Act like how do we enforce that only a few people get these benefits only a few and everybody else cannot that's that's some real learning of a pattern and if we choose not to look at that pattern
Candice (54:00)
Right.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (54:04)
with our critically, you we have this amazing ability as humans to be critical and to think. We need to be able to pause, to slow these things down and think critically with our frontal lobe and not the amygdala. And these decisions to me feel very amygdala driven.
Candice (54:18)
Yeah.
Yes, absolutely. think what we're seeing right now is a lot of fear-based propaganda, which we saw back during the civil rights movement. It's fear of the unknown, fear of the other. And they create a dynamic, you know, like even Hitler and these people are not like us, so we must fear them. And so...
Ingrid Hu Dahl (54:40)
Yeah, right. And get
rid of them.
Candice (54:45)
Right, if it's not a race or an ethnicity or a gender identity, you know what mean? So right now we're seeing like, we saw so much progress, like women getting rights and the, you know, black people getting rights and minorities getting rights. And now it's like, they're like ripping them down all the work we did. And I'm like, okay, ⁓ this is going in the wrong direction, ⁓ which can create, you know, it can create fear on both sides. Like I saw this happen after the last election, even the people who voted for Trump.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (55:05)
Mm-hmm.
Candice (55:14)
and put him in office are still spiraling in fear. And I'm like, wait, you got what you wanted. Why are you now still afraid? But it becomes like this reinforcing cycle of like, I'm afraid of this and I'm afraid of that. And so therefore we must ban this, we must ban that. And it's a really fucking shitty place to live from is being in fear of all these things all the time and trying to repress and suppress and get rid of. And instead of like...
Ingrid Hu Dahl (55:19)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm.
Candice (55:42)
finding the commonalities between ourselves and the people who aren't like us. you know, okay, you may be afraid that these people are going to come in and take your jobs, but if you were to look at them, like...
you have more in common with these people than you think. And if you were to be able to put yourselves in their shoes, I think you wouldn't be feeling this fear, right? And so I think that's, that's, yeah, anger, you know, and anger usually is a mask for something, another emotion, right? It's, it's not always, yeah, it's not always the core emotion. And so I think that's really important, like you said, being able to, you know,
Ingrid Hu Dahl (55:59)
Mm-hmm.
or anger.
Usually sad. Sadness.
Candice (56:22)
look at how has the progress happened over time and how would you have been the target of something 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago, right? And so, ⁓ yeah, I really appreciate you talking about that. We're almost out of time. So would you like to promote where people can buy your book? And if they want to, didn't, we didn't even get in to talk about the fact that you do coaching. ⁓ So what kind of coaching do you do if somebody wants to work with you?
Ingrid Hu Dahl (56:47)
Thanks, I do leadership development consulting and coaching. So people who are leaders who are like, hmm, something's not quite right, or I keep getting this weird feedback, I don't understand it, I'm resistant, I'm noticing patterns, I've kind of reached the end of my rope of doing this myself and I need support. ⁓ Or people who are in transitions in their careers or lives. It's my favorite to feel and be with somebody who's in that space.
and help them chart out a path of exploration where there's more clarity and action items along the way. Amazing transformation with a lot of the clients I've had the privilege to work with. So for folks who are interested, they can go to my coaching and consulting website. It's just my full name ingridhoodall.com. And for those who are interested in my book, this is actually my name, sunshiningonmorningsnow.com.
please feel free to buy the paperback book or the ebook which is now available.
Candice (57:48)
Yeah.
And we will link in the show notes your website where they can purchase the book and then ⁓ they can also book coaching sessions with you if they like. And I so appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today. I feel like there are so many other things we could have talked about and touched on. Like you have so much experience that people can relate to. So I really hope your book gets like on the number one bestseller list or something that would be awesome. Yes, let's manage this for you that it gets, cause it sounds
Ingrid Hu Dahl (57:58)
Thank you.
You
⁓ let's put it the universe, Candace. Let's go. ⁓
Candice (58:18)
like a fascinating story and I think so many people will resonate with your journey so I appreciate you taking the time to talk with us today.
Ingrid Hu Dahl (58:25)
Thank you, Candice.
What a pleasure to be here with you.
Candice (58:29)
All right, thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next week.