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The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is — and why today’s system isn’t working. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, this show cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, where it’s gone wrong, and what a better future could look like. Along the way, you'll discover how Bitcoin fits into the bigger picture — not as hype, but as a serious response to a broken system. Whether you're curious, skeptical, or already down the
Speaker 3: Welcome to Honest Money.
I'm your host, Anja, and today's
episode is brought to you by hard block.
Anja: Greetings.
Joining me today is an
Australian Bitcoin, Ben Gazal.
Uh, I found Ben on Instagram, so I've
asked him to join on the podcast because
his page is doing really, really well.
He's getting over like a million
views on some of his posts where he's
trying to educate others about the,
the basement of Australian Dollar.
Welcome to Honest Money, Ben.
Ben: Thank you, Anja.
Pleasure to be here and you
are one of the, uh, few that
have found me on Instagram.
So good for you.
Anja: Yay.
I love finding Bitcoiners in the wild.
It's like, I feel like it's my special
skill and you'll be really surprised
I've found like we have an Australian
comedian who's a coiner and I reached
out to him 'cause I saw some of his
posts and he wears like a Bitcoin cap.
And I'm like, are you a Bitcoin?
And he goes, stack that and say Humble
Ben: stack.
And say humble.
Yeah.
Anja: I was just like.
There's so many of us in the wild, and
I, uh, he lives somewhere near Sydney.
I'm like, how come I've
never seen you at a meetup?
'cause I used to go to,
to the Sydney meetups.
He goes, I didn't know there were any,
and up in Brisbane is a man named peers.
And he says he gets the same thing
at a meetup every month is like two
or three people join and be like,
I had no idea there were others.
Ben: Yeah, we're, uh,
we're a rare breed, right?
We're in the wild until you find us.
And then you discover this cupboard
that there's full of these closet
bitcoiners, like you and I.
So no closet, no, no longer,
Anja: yes, coming out of the closet
and on that, I'm very keen for my
audience to hear your origin story.
How did you get into Bitcoin?
Ben: How did I get in?
Well, I'm one of those people
that, uh, let's say saw it at 700.
Uh, was intrigued by it at a thousand,
was intrigued even more by 10,000.
But only only did I buy it at 68,000
in, uh, uh, 2021, late early 2022.
My, uh, initiation into Bitcoin
was the 2022 Bear Market.
FTX collapse.
Like everyone I thought, well,
what the hell have I done?
What am I doing?
What an absolute idiot.
Um, and bought alt coins and other
coins and had everything other
than Bitcoin and eventually fell
down the Bitcoin rabbit hole.
Um, and I think, you know, as you learn
more about Bitcoin, you start to basically
get a really good understanding of the
other problems like, you know, monetary
debasement and those kinds of things.
And.
Uh, led me down the path of trying to
educate others on, on the same issue.
Anja: Yeah.
And what has your been, like,
what's your impression so far?
Have people respond to
your education online?
Like, do people understand the problem?
Ben: Um, do they understand?
I, I don't think you've almost gotta find
a bit of a problem and solution first.
And so it's difficult for them
to find the problem if you know,
or at least find the solution if
they don't recognize the problem.
So they're, they're really, um, they're
not sure I suppose, of what monetary
debasement is and until someone really
points it out to them, 'cause traditional
advice is, you know, very consistent
over the years about what return you
should be getting and what inflation
is and all those kinds of things.
And it, and it, it really isn't that, but
until someone points it out to them, it's
very difficult for them to understand.
Anja: Hmm.
And have you had any people that
have become, I guess, more or less
fans and, and are con, consistently
engaging with your content on Instagram?
Ben: Other than me?
Uh, yeah, look,
it was, it was weird to see some
videos get, you know, one, one
and a half million, million views.
It was, uh, it was one of the most
simplest videos where I held up
a $20 note and said, you know.
30 years ago, it used to be this, and
10 years ago, as it, it used to be this.
And I think that really simple
message of honing into people
about what the problem is.
Um, and, and if it's really relatable
and they can understand and they can see
it because they can also feel it on you.
They can also feel it on the
other end when they go to the.
The grocery store and they go to the
shops and they see that their money
just isn't going as far as it used to.
And then when they get told, inflation is,
let's say two to 2%, 3%, 4%, it doesn't
really stack up when they look at their
energy bills and everything else and they
go, this, this isn't, this isn't true.
So it's almost like don't
believe your lying eyes because.
What's in front of you is a really
clear display of this dollar
doesn't go as far as it used to.
And so I really focus on the
loss of purchasing power of
the dollar rather than the CPI.
And I don't wanna get too technical,
I just wanna sort of get the, the
top line is the loss of purchasing
power of the dollar compared to
10 years ago or 15 years ago.
That to me, that is the biggest
hit home for every people.
'cause they go, every person 'cause
they go, you know, that actually
makes more sense than sitting down and
looking at inflation and adjusting that.
And so.
When you sort of adjust that and
work out what your finances are
and what your future looks like
and what your investments are,
you're really going nowhere.
And, and so when people, the penny drops
and someone says, well, I have, I don't
think this is right, these returns aren't
gonna get me to where I want to get to.
Um, so I sort of fell down two
rabbit holes, rabbit holes at
the same time, which was Bitcoin.
But then it led me to what
the current system looks like.
And so trying to understand how.
A lot of people do see Bitcoin
inside the current system, but it's
actually a completely separate system.
It's, it's like an opt out.
You've heard it.
Everyone in the Bitcoin space has
heard it, but it's an opt out of
the current system that is keeping
us on the treadmill, keeping
us on the rat race every single
day, but we are going backwards.
So I think those kind of messages and
those videos that I do that tries to
resonate with the everyday problem and
make it really relatable, uh, they're
the ones that seem to do really well.
Anja: Yeah, I was really pleasantly
surprised by how well your content
performs, and my background is
in marketing, and I haven't been
able to make videos that get that
sort of cut through and attention.
I'm like, what am I doing wrong?
But also, I also feel very like
embarrassed in a way doing it.
So there's uh, I guess that
fear that I need to get over.
Um,
Ben: that's
Anja: natural
Ben: though, because this,
the, the, you know, the.
The best videos or, or the best
way to, to relate content like.
This, which is so relatable to people
in their life, is to give you, give them
the same experience that you are having,
you know, give them the same experience
that a lot of people are having around,
it's my dollar's just not going as far.
And if you can really simply point
it out to them that, hey, when
there's, when there's more money
created than more goods produced.
That creates inflation.
And so if your wage isn't keeping up with
the, with the increase of those things,
then you're, you are going backwards.
So at, at very least, you need
to find out what that problem is.
So for us, we know that it's money
printing and, and uh, and so when you have
an excess in money printing, if you just
go to the extreme, go to Venezuela, go
to Lebanon, go to the examples that we've
seen over the years, like Humar, Germany.
When, when the money supply is manipulated
and corrupted to a point where it's
just printed into oblivion, the people
that are working for that money, uh,
the people that are saving in that money
are getting debased every single day.
And it's the people
that don't have assets.
And so I did a video that sort of said to
people, look, just don't hold the dollar.
Whatever you do, I don't, you
know, I'm not a financial advisor.
I can't give advice on what you should
buy, but I did a video one saying,
look, just don't hold the dollar.
Whatever you do.
So if you, even if you save a hundred
dollars a week, even if you save $200
a week, buy something that isn't the
dollar, because that's the problems.
And see, most people see it as safety.
And so when they see it as safety,
I see it as a guaranteed loss.
So it's not safe, it's just.
The system is designed to make you
scared of going out into investing
out other things like Bitcoin.
So the narrative around Bitcoin is
that it's risky and it's volatile.
Yes, it's volatile, but risky.
I, I don't agree with, but, um,
they stay in the safe lane and
that's where they want us to stay.
So I'm very much, if the crowd is
going this way, uh, if the crowd is
going one way and, and the talking
heads on TV are giving me the same
advice that they're getting, I.
Every single time I looked the other
way to try and find some evidence that,
hey, that, that's, that's not true.
Anja: Yeah.
Language is very interesting.
You know, it wasn't until I got
into Bitcoin that I just started
seeing the opposition to the
narrative that we are fed day to day.
Sometimes you can be, if you are
new or to to personal finance even,
you can be really intimidated by
some of the traditional finance
terminologies that's thrown around.
You know, your quantitative easing
sounds so intimidating, but it's
so simple in practice, and it's
not until someone who's a sound man
money advocate comes along and says.
Tries to simplify it in a way that
the average person can understand
and just say it in, in, in a way that
might even be shocking, but get you
to really think about the underlying
mechanics like it's legal counterfeiting.
That's
Ben: what it
Anja: is.
Yeah.
Um,
Ben: you and I, you and I aren't
allowed to do, if you and I do
what they do, we go to jail.
Um, if, if you and I, we run
our household budgets, right?
We, if we run our budgets over
budget and we spend more than
we earn, we end up going bust.
But it's not the same for the
people that control the money.
So what is there 160 odd or
more currencies in the world?
Why do we need 160 more or more
government controlled currencies?
It's all each, each individual nation
has their own, and that's why you.
It's hard to sort of portray sometimes
because it's, it's, it's just over there.
It's, it's in Venezuela, it's in Turkey,
it's in Lebanon, but that's just the
dial that, that's been turned up.
That's the level of debasement.
Yeah.
So if, if the, if the metric is
that the debasement is the same.
It's just a path to the same ending.
It's just that it is just that
they've done it quicker than us.
It's just that they've had more
corrupt and, and, and, uh, more
manipulated money supply than us.
They've, it's the same.
There's no different what Venezuela and
what Turkey and what Lebanon and those
countries that have been through over
the years is exactly the same as what
Australia and the US are going through.
Anja: Mm.
Ben: It's just that they, you know,
our economies are obviously more
developed and they can, um, you know,
bandaid it and kick the can as they
say down the road, um, for many years.
So, yeah, it's inflation.
Is this.
Evil, evil thing that has almost
been putting in the vernacular of
the, of the common person and the
common worker as we need inflation,
you know, and inflation is good.
We need two to 3% inflation.
We can't have deflation,
we've gotta have inflation.
But if we have too much inflation,
there's, that's too much.
Like it is just madness, you know?
So, um, yeah.
Speaker 2: Quick one for the Aussies
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Because if not, maybe it's time to switch.
Head to hard block.com au slash
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start stacking stats today.
Anja: Yeah, it's, it's, it's also
like, why can't they say it in a
way that isn't managing optics?
Why can't they say instead of, you
know, they're increasing money supply
or quantitative easing, or anything
like that, why can't they just say to
us, oh, we're going to devalue your
savings for the good of everyone.
They don't, because that sounds bad,
but that's exactly what they're doing.
That is exactly what they're doing.
And if they said it in a way that was,
I guess, more blunt or more honest.
People would listen.
And this is why I think Bitcoin is very
important because even if you hate us, we
are teaching you something that, you know,
people in, in positions of power are not.
So,
Ben: yeah.
Uh, look, my experience with all
of this over six years, uh, started
in 21 into now, so call it five
years, five and a half years, and.
It's very, very difficult.
I think one of the videos I did
the other day is very tires to try
and explain Bitcoin to someone.
So I, I don't want this talk with you
and your listeners to be about me trying
to explain Bitcoin to them because it's
really, as you and I both know, it's
not something you can get, uh, in an
hour's podcast or a 32nd in instant.
You just have to recognize that, okay.
Is there a problem?
Is my money going?
You know, is my money getting to base
and not going as far as it used to?
Is it buying half of what it used to or
90% or what it, you know, if there is a
problem, what is the solution to that?
What can people, so it's just,
it's just that you and I have gone
through the same exercise and same
problem that most people are going
through today, but you and I have.
Just gone down a corner of the internet
or the universe and gone, okay.
Bitcoin seems to be the
solution to that problem.
Now there's, there's other solutions.
There's gold.
There's other things that
people can buy, and I, again,
I don't own any of that stuff.
I'm a Bitcoin.
I'm a Bitcoin only.
But they are solving, or they're
down very, very much gold as well.
They're down the same path.
How do I protect my time and energy
that I put into work this week?
How do I make sure that I don't wake
up tomorrow and the government says,
wait, we want to chase a new policy
and spend a hundred billion this year.
Well, where are you getting
the a hundred billion from?
You already run a $40 billion deficit.
Like, okay, well we're gonna, we're
gonna create it through government
bonds and fractional reserve
banking and all that kind of stuff.
We're gonna create it.
And juice the economy that way.
Well, all that means is it's just more
dollars chasing the same amount of goods.
It's not wealth building.
So, you know, if you, even if you go down
the path and, and your listeners should
do this exercise, if they can at some
point use gold, use Bitcoin as a metric.
Maybe, maybe don't use Bitcoin
as a metric over the last
three or four months, but, um,
Anja: pick along the time horizon.
Ben: Yeah.
Stretch out the time horizon and,
and head towards especially gold.
You know, gold's been around 5,000 years.
I just think gold is a really good
thing for people to try and maybe.
Uh, wrestle with the problem and solution.
That's all.
You know, because of Bitcoin's
volatility and so early.
Um, there are gonna be moments where
people are gonna go, look, I, that's
just, that just doesn't make sense.
It's too, too risky.
Too volatile.
Volatile.
And I get that.
But if we're going to give someone,
uh, some of your listeners anything
today, it's use a different
metric other than the dollar.
Wherever you live in the
world, use a different metric.
To measure your wealth other than
the dollar that you are, you're in
uk, the pound, the dollar, the Aussie
dollar, the Turkish lira, whatever
it is, use something different.
If you just use gold as just to try and
find this problem and solution, use gold.
You'll see what Anja and I and
others around the world are
seeing this, just that we've
chosen Bitcoin to be the solution.
Now you might get there and find
Bitcoin is your, is your solution.
You might find something else as his
solution, but I want to, I want to.
Talk to the people that are, the workers,
the grinders, the ones that don't have
assets, the, they're the ones that the
government and this, and this system
of corruption and money printing.
They're the ones that get left
behind, and I don't want anyone left,
left behind because it's so simple.
If they just move their time
and energy into something that,
that the government can't print,
they're at least ahead of the game.
They're, they're in, you
know, first or second gear.
Anja: Yeah, I love that and I love
that we kind of have the same calling
in life in in, in essence, because
that's part of the reason why I started
this podcast is like if I can help the
everyday plebs, even just get remotely
curious about it to start studying it,
that that's the best thing I can do.
But I'm curious to know, so what
was it that finally kind of managed
to, um, convince you that this is
something worth worthy looking into?
And are there any particular
resources that you'd recommend?
Ben: Yeah.
Um, books, podcasts, everything, uh, that,
you know, maybe your listeners already
do, but just a lot more of the detail.
Um, because again, if you've identified
the problem and you're wanting to
try and find a solution, for me
particularly, I looked at my super,
um, I looked at my investments.
And I looked at everything and I
did the numbers around, okay, well
where am I going to be in, you
know, I'm 45, uh, so retirement
maybe in 20, 25 years, give or take.
So I, I, I did the numbers and started
to adjust all of that for money printing.
'cause I wanted a real
snapshot of where I'd be.
And I, I'd like to retire maybe at 55,
you know, maybe 10 years time would be
nice to have a bit more time on her hands.
Um, and, and go traveling
and do some things.
So I connected it to a, a tangible.
Goal in our life for my family
and I, my wife and I, to go,
okay, where do we want to be here?
So I did the numbers and I love
numbers, and I did the numbers and I
adjusted everything for money printing
and debasement that's been happening.
So I took the average of
8% over the last 60 years.
Now not, it's not direct everywhere
around the world, but eight
percent's a good number to use.
And the result that I had was shit.
Oh, sorry.
Anja: No, you can swear.
Ben: Okay, cool.
It was shit.
I, I don't, we're not gonna have enough.
And I was already sort of in
Bitcoin, but that's when I owned
some alternative coins as everyone
does, the experience is the same.
And, um, so I, I started to
listen to people like Jeff
Booth and Jeff Booth really.
Does send it home in
a really tangible way.
Like it, it, it does start to challenge
your thinking and there's the content
of Bitcoin, which is, I love, you
know, that you're, you're putting
this kind of message out there because
the more people that can come across
a genuine understanding of why,
why do Bitcoiners do what they do?
Why are they so passionate about Bitcoin?
That's, that's the reason is that it
connects to a tangible goal of where
you, where you want to be in life.
It's not some crypto token that I want
to earn 10 x over the next six months
and then quickly trade out of, I know
there's a space for that and people can do
what they want to do, but that's not me.
I go to work, I have a day job, as do
you, as do most, and I, I wanna put
my time and energy and my savings into
something that is going to be protected.
And so for me, connecting that tangible
goal of where do I wanna be, then
number two, doing the numbers on where I
currently am and where do I need to be,
and then adjusting for 8%, which I've got,
I'll put in, uh, the link, uh, for you
if you'd like, and you can include it.
I put a calculator together.
Uh, nice.
Did I send that to you?
Yeah.
I dunno if I,
Anja: yeah, I tested it.
It's great.
Ben: Yeah, so that simply just puts all
your investments in a, on an adjustment
level of 8% and you can really work out
where you're going to be in, in, you
know, the timeframe that you're analyzing.
Uh, for me, I just went, okay,
this something's gotta change.
And it was just, I suppose at the
right time, I was falling down the
Bitcoin rabbit hole and went, hang
on, this all doesn't make sense.
Um, I decided I went and put 90%
of my net worth into Bitcoin.
Super, the whole lot,
everything into Bitcoin.
We have a house, we have a business.
Um, but, and since then, obviously, uh,
with fluctuations and ups and downs in
the middle, but I'm not here to check it.
You know, check the price
tomorrow and hope for the best.
I'm here to check it in 2030.
I'm here to check it in 2035.
And if, if you can just turn off the
internet and turn off the noise and,
you know, store it, pop properly,
put it in cold storage, understand
all that and how to do that, then
life just becomes a lot more simpler.
Anja: It really does.
I checked the price this morning, um,
mainly because it's like it's moving
a lot, so I only tend to check it
when, when there's some volatility.
We've been consolidating all of last
year, and I just like my, this is my first
bear market, so I checked and I was like.
Ah.
Like that was my reaction.
Like it, it's gone down.
Yeah.
So I've been prepared really well.
I was lucky to be brought into
Bitcoin by other Bitcoiners who just
said like, study this, read these
books, listen to these broadcasts.
And so I knew this was coming.
I know there's a lot of emotion
in the market at the moment, but
I honestly, I don't feel anything.
If anything, I feel like, oh my gosh,
I need to find more money to stack.
That's
Ben: yeah, for right.
Yeah,
Anja: that's my reaction.
I'm super curious to know, is
your wife a Bitcoin as well?
Ben: Uh, she's a Bitcoin by default.
Um, you know, she But
Anja: proxy.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah.
She's very, very busy with the kids
and, you know, has, uh, we've got a.
Other commitments and things.
So she sort of, and look to the level that
I get, you know, involved into Bitcoin
and how much study I've done, it's, it,
as you know, it requires a lot of time
and effort to get down the rabbit hole.
But she's, she certainly, we go to
barbecues now or we have friends over
and she's well equipped to have the
conversation about monetary debasement,
about what Bitcoin does and what it really
is and what does it mean to buy it and,
um, and how the current system works.
So I would say she's a Bitcoin.
Yeah.
Anja: Well, if she wants to hear it
from someone else other than you, you
can always send her to women in bitcoin
meetups in Byron that I organize.
Um, they're always down
Ben: in Byron.
Love
Anja: it.
Yeah.
Well, I figured you're close by somewhere,
like within a few hours drive, at
least from my stalking activities.
So we, we have local meetups here.
There's meetups in the Gold Coast.
There's meetups in the Brisbane.
The Brisbane ones are
really good, I've heard.
I haven't been yet.
Um, but yeah, there's like a thriving
community and there's so many women
here in Byron, like last meetup we
had in January 14 women showed up and
it's a mixture of women who've been in
it for years and are like fully, you
know, into self custody, into privacy.
Digital privacy.
And then there's women that are like
completely new and very curious,
and again, are kind of like coming
and taught from an old coin route.
And we're just gently trying to,
you know, educate them like, yes,
you can do that, it's your money.
Um.
But we've been down this
rabbit hole as well.
A lot of us have.
And um, you're better off just sticking to
the one thing that works, um, and zooming
out, having that long time horizon.
So it's just really nice 'cause they
get to hear it from someone other
than their husband for a change.
And then.
We also have women who were the
ones to orange peel their husbands.
And it wasn't until like Bitcoin hit a
hundred thousand that the husband was
like, okay, I see you're onto something.
Like, let's sell the house
and put into Bitcoin.
Ben: Yeah.
That take notice.
What do you mean it's a hundred?
It was 50 grand last time you told me.
Now it's a hundred.
Maybe I should take some notice.
Anja: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
But, uh, how are you feeling with the, I
guess with the current market sentiment?
Ben: Um, uh, look, this is
again, F-T-X-I-I, I was, um.
Born in a, uh, just an absolute
firestorm, my Bitcoin journey.
So FTX blew up, you know, Celsius
block fire, 60, 70%, 80% drawdowns.
Uh, so this to me, the, the
intriguing part about this one
is that I can't particularly put.
An event to it.
You can't put a specific thing that
happens, so you can't put a collapse,
uh, you can't put, you know, uh,
an exchange going under which may
be happening in the background.
And the, the selling looks forced.
Um, it looks like someone's been
caught offside in a bad position with
leverage somewhere and on a decent
size, and they've been forced to sell.
And so, uh, the current market.
If you look at the fundamentals of
Bitcoin and what's happened over the
last year or so, um, with, you know, pro
Bitcoin, uh, policy and leg legislation
in the states, which is, let's be honest,
it's, it's the epicenter for Bitcoin.
Whatever happens in the US
has the influence of what
the Bitcoin market will do.
Um, so I think long term certainly
is, it's, it's great and the
fundamentals are great, but.
I always look at these.
This is about conviction, and what
you're being presented with is an
opportunity to go back in time.
Bitcoin every three, four, maybe
five years, gives you an opportunity
to be Ben in 2021 to be Anja
in 2022, whatever it might be.
That gives you an opportunity to go back
in time, but it also asks you in this at
the same time, do you have the conviction?
Do you have the same conviction
that you had last week or the
week before to actually buy it?
And so all these opportunities, and
you hear it from the people that go,
uh, I'm, I'm too late to Bitcoin.
I'm late, and now I was
getting that all last year.
I'm too late.
Prices already run.
That's it.
Okay, so go call those people now and
ask them if they think they're too late.
The prices back to the prices that
it was four or five years ago.
Would they like to go back in time
and and purchase it in 2021 and 2022?
Guess what?
They're getting an opportunity today in
2026 to buy it four or five years ago.
But I, I, they won't, that's
where the conviction comes in.
That's where the knowledge comes in
about what they're owning and what
they're buying and what the problem is.
Bitcoin's not for bystanders.
You can click that.
That's a good one.
Um, Bitcoin is not for bystanders.
Uh, it's not for people that are
just looking to get in and out.
Bitcoin is for, for people that
are looking for long-term store
of wealth, uh, that understand,
that are willing to do the work.
Proof of work they save for
Bitcoin and you gotta do the work.
So I'm fine with the current market.
You know, it'd be great to have
some dry powder and buy some more.
Um,
Anja: yeah.
Ben: And, uh, you know, so these
op this, this is an opportunity.
I, I don't see anything outside the
normal Bitcoin fluctuations in its market.
And Bitcoin didn't do this.
Bitcoin didn't create this market.
People did people borrowing money.
To buy Bitcoin and then borrowing
more money to buy Bitcoin.
People created this up and down cycle.
It's all people driven.
Bitcoin is still producing
a block every 10 minutes.
The difficulty adjustment is still
going exactly as it is supposed to.
Algorithm's still working perfectly.
My node in there is working
perfectly, sending transactions.
I did some this morning.
Bitcoin is operating perfectly.
The only thing that changes is people.
That's it.
You're getting an opportunity.
That's all I would say.
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Anja: Yeah, yeah.
This is the time to stack in build wealth.
Yeah, it's during the
bear market, so to speak.
Um, yeah, it was interesting.
My, this is my first bear market
and I've been testing some of my
friendships, making fun of like the,
you know, I'm looking at kind of how
much my net worth has dropped by,
and then I'm, I'm like so cheeky.
I'm going to like some of the OGs.
I'm like, so you must be down millions.
And they're like, if I go down,
you're coming down with me.
Ben: Yeah.
Kinda like to, uh, like to sort of recency
bias is one of those things where it
doesn't apply if it's going down, but it
certainly applies as if, if it's going up.
But, uh, yeah, it's not nice to see
your Netwealth, uh, you know, turn down
60%, 50% in the space of three months,
but, you know, in the previous two
years we saw it go up two, three, 400%.
So I don't know.
But
Anja: yeah, it's
Ben: just.
Anja: As a new I, I feel like I've
learned so much from the, the, I guess,
nearly two years that I've been in it.
And I remember when I was kind of
coming in just before the halving in
2024, just being very, um, nervous
about, you know, the price escaping
me and that if I don't get in now, I
am gonna lose out on potential gains.
And I was just, it was that
typical rookie mindset.
Um, now that I've been in it
for two years, it's just been
completely changed and I'm very like.
Not as worried about the price.
And I wish I kind of had a little
bit more patience when I first
started out, um, to do some more d
cing rather than more lump suming.
Um, but I guess, yeah,
everyone has their own journey.
I've heard people buy at the top of the
cycle last time and DCA all the way down
and it didn't waver their conviction so.
This is where that educational
piece is so important.
Yeah.
Um, you can't, yeah.
You people who are tourists, they're
the ones who don't do the study.
Ben: Yeah.
And I, you're right.
But I also feel that like
everyone wants an answer.
In, in this day and age, everyone
wants an answer in 30 seconds.
Everyone wants to know like, what did
you do, Anja, to get into Bitcoin?
You know, how did you just, just
tell me what, what do I need to do?
And I find a lot of that
with the videos I do.
And, and the things, you know, the
messages I try and get out there, I, I
get so many calls and it's a, it's, it's
not, it's not a, a critique of them, uh,
or, you know, we're not bagging them,
but it's just, this is the day and age
we're in is you want fast information.
And Bitcoin requires you to have
a really low time preference.
And, and I think that goes
for your education too.
I don't know, honestly, Anja, I have
probably thousands of hours podcast upon
podcast upon podcast book, audio, audio
book, just to get, and I'm still learning.
I'm still going.
Okay.
Right.
I didn't understand that.
And so throughout that time, I
just think it's a reflection of,
of where the society is about.
I wanna know, just someone tell me
what to do and just Bitcoin isn't that,
and if you, so I think in getting to
the point it was, if people get in
on that basis that, Hey, I saw one
of Ben's videos or on his podcast and
you know, I decided that I like what
I heard and I went and bought Bitcoin.
Let's say they did that four or
five weeks ago and they listened to
one of your, your podcasts and went
and bought $5,000 worth of Bitcoin.
Do you think they're still there now?
Do you think they would've made
it through the last 72 hours?
I don't think so.
Anja: No.
Ben: Do you think they would've been
buying more over that last seven,
two hours and they would've been
absolutely shitting themselves going,
I can't believe what I've bought.
But you and I and others that have
that, that have got the education,
this is where education is key.
'cause if you know what you, what you're
buying, then you had the conviction to not
only just wait through these periods, but
also buy like if, if, if, if your street,
uh, or my street, if next door neighbor.
Uh, if my next door neighbor called and
said, Hey, look, I wanna sell my house.
It's on sale for 60% off.
You'd be absolutely cheering.
You'd be running around the block,
stark us going, how good is this?
I'm gonna buy two of them.
But when it comes to Bitcoin
and, and, and, and it's on sale,
it's like, oh, something's wrong.
So it's just, they're not, it's just they
don't understand what they're buying.
But if they're buying the house,
it's 60% off, they'll buy it.
So, uh, I would just say
this is a, these are.
Really good opportunities, uh, to get into
an asset that could be, you know, three,
four, $500,000 over the next five years.
Anja: Yeah, so if you're listening
to this podcast study Bitcoin first.
That's all I've gotta say.
Please, yeah.
Ben: So what, what's on this podcast
and go to the sovereign strategy
and, uh, I'll try and do my best
to get it in 30 seconds, but maybe
watch a few of them that might help.
Anja: Yeah, I, I, I completely understand
and can relate to people just wanting.
Information very quickly.
Too often I have people just demanding
that I prove to them why Bitcoin
is a thing, like in, in a minute or
30 seconds, like an elevator pitch.
Well, it's like I can say it, but
you won't understand what I'm saying.
You'll hear words, but you won't
understand the gravity of those words.
Like, so if I say, you know,
it's a neutral, decentralized
protocol, peer to peer pro.
That, that, that's just like a bunch
of words if you don't understand
what each one of those means and
the depth of the importance of it.
Yeah, there's no, there's no
short form content that you can
consume on Bitcoin that, um.
That is gonna click in for you.
I did actually see one podcast,
not podcast, the YouTube channel
that did a pretty good job.
It was like, I'll explain everything
I've learned about Bitcoin in two hours.
Um, and I was like.
I scoffed.
I was like, good luck.
But it was actually really, really good
and it was the best too long, didn't
read version of Bitcoin that I've
heard, and I still hope that that itself
doesn't replace the education and the
proof of work that you need to put in.
But I thought it was a really good
entry point where you kind of get the
value proposition without necessarily
understanding the depth of it.
And it was, um, yeah.
Bitcoin straight up.
So I interviewed the guy, I actually found
him through YouTube and then I nosed him
and I was like, Hey, I love your channel.
Do you wanna be on my podcast?
He replied, within two minutes.
I was like, this is what I love.
Yeah.
And he's,
Ben: I love spreading, I
love spreading the word.
Anja: Yeah, just, yeah, it's, it's
um, really cool stuff like that.
I think there's definitely, um,
I know you are considering doing
a podcast as well, and I will
strongly encourage you to do it.
A lot of people think that the market is
oversaturated, but I don't think it is.
I think we need more people talking
about and creating those network effects
because everyone has their own unique
style and their own unique angle.
Um, I'm not even, yeah,
Ben: you're right.
Anja: Entirely sure what mine is yet.
I'm just kind of putting stuff out there.
I'm sure it's gonna crystallize in time.
Ben: I love that.
Yeah.
I love it.
You know?
Yeah.
The fact that you're just putting,
and yeah, that some amazing guests,
some of you know, the biggest names
in, uh, in Bitcoin, Twitter, uh,
have recently been on, and I've
really enjoyed those interviews.
So I think you're right, the
consistency of just putting
the same message out there.
But the thing, uh, when you were
talking about, uh, you know, trying to
get that message out in a short form.
When people ask me what Bitcoin is, I
don't really, I, I used to try, I used
to be sort of using similar analogy
and trying to explain it to them.
And um, and that's when I was very
similar, uh, in, in regards to my time,
maybe a couple of years in, and was
really, um, passionate about trying to
get the decentralization and the SHA 2 56
algorithms and the difficulty adjustment
and the, everything like that, trying to,
and, and now I just tell them it's money.
I just say it's money.
Anja: It is
Ben: money.
Money is subjective.
They used to use shells and you know,
they used to use cows and like value,
value and money is, is subjective.
So, you know, trading things or
barter, uh, back in the day, like if
you look at the, the, the evolution
of money, the, the, where we are
now with this fiat experiment
across the world, every single time.
The Fiat paper Money Experiment
has failed even since the, uh,
11th century Chinese dynasty.
Now, guess what?
They all did?
They know.
Anja: They
Ben: printed and they printed and
they printed until it blew up.
And so, uh, I just tell them it's
money and, and some people will
look at me and go, what money?
You're kidding?
It's, it's money's like,
I've got $20 in my pocket.
It's not, that's money.
I said, well, that's currency.
Money and currency are supposed
to, can be two different things.
You know, money, money should be
designed to hold value because
currency, make sure I get this right.
Is whatever we choose it to be.
You know, if, if, if you and I choose
to, uh, we're living on a deserted island
and I've got carrots and you've got
apples, and we choose to exchange, we
we're just using something as a currency.
But money is designed to hold value.
It's where, it's something where
you store your time and energy.
It's something where you store
your value for the week into.
Uh, you know, whatever asset that is.
And for us it's Bitcoin, but I don't
think we've ever had, we've never had
a free money where it's been neutral.
Decentralized at a point where you
can go, okay, everyone can use it.
No one gets access to it.
It's rules without rules,
all those kinds of things.
And so when I go down the path of just
telling them it's money and that, that
tends to resonate a bit and go, and then
they sort of go, well, what's money?
What's, what's money supposed to be?
And you're off on another
tangent, but Yeah.
Anyway, I just thought I had, I've
had that question a few times and.
I love it.
Does.
Anja: Yeah, I love a good tangent,
but I, I completely agree with you
and that's why I very intentionally
named my podcast Honest Money.
I am talking mostly about Bitcoin,
but I'm also talking about sound
money principles, and I'm also
talking a lot about everything that's
wrong with fiat, with my guests.
But at the core of it, Bitcoin
is not only money, but it is a
more honest form of money, and
there's various reasons for that.
Um.
So, yeah, that's kind of the angle that
I've taken and, uh, he I'm gonna die on.
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah.
Why not?
Because it's just, you know, as, as Jeff
Booth says, we've, we've never really
had a free and open market, but everyone
thinks that, uh, there's never been a
time where free and open markets have
been, uh, you know, allowed to run free.
There's, there's so much, uh, you know.
Bandaid solution for every crisis.
There was never any creative destruction
allowed with, you know, or the only
creative destruction that was allowed
in the GFC was for the average worker.
The average, average person.
You know that, and this is what shits
you about the, the system sometimes
is that every single time the system
gets itself into a, into a mess.
The public has to pick up the
bill, but the system comes at the
government and says, Hey, we need to
do this, or the system will collapse.
And so GFC still had millions in
unemployed and millions lost their
homes across the world, and millions
lost their superannuations and
4 0 1 Ks and it still happened.
The thing that they went to the
governments about saying, Hey, we've got a
problem, or something bad will happen, it
ended up happening to the public instead.
So creative destruction is I, I think
creative destruction is beautiful,
especially in financial markets.
This is what you're seeing happening
now with Bitcoin at the moment.
There's no backstop.
If you over-leveraged yourself and
you, you borrowed money to buy Bitcoin,
there's no one's coming to save you.
If it goes down and goes down
further, you don't have to force sell.
That's it.
You're out.
I love that about Bitcoin because it
makes you accountable to the decisions
you're making at the top of this
fiat, rubbish, corrupt money system.
Is a system that is designed not to
fail for the for, for the, for the
elites and the massive corporations
and the, and the governments and
central banks around the world.
They just know it's not allowed to fail.
So what that allows them to do is
it allows them to take more risky
bets and just know that if the
government steps in, we are fine.
But Anja and Ben, who, who have a
hundred dollars in their pocket from
work today, that'll just turn into $80.
That's no big deal.
Anja: Yep.
The collateral damage is real.
Yeah, that's, that's the thing,
like I, I follow a lot of mainstream
economists on LinkedIn and they, a
lot of the time talk about trust as if
that's the real currency of the world.
And to me, that is so triggering because
that trust that's placed in this system
has been broken many, many times.
This is why Bitcoin was created.
It is in the Genesis block.
The fact that the whole system
is based on trust, and that trust
is repeatedly broken, it's, it's
like an abusive relationship.
You wouldn't stay in a
relationship like that.
So why are you choosing to
opt into this system that's
designed to make you lose like.
Yeah, I, no, thank you.
Ben: They've just, yeah, they've just
not shown, not been shown an alternative.
And, uh, I don't, you know, Anja,
I don't think people opt in.
I think they just, I, I think
they bought, they're on default.
Anja: Default, yep.
Ben: Yeah.
I think, um, they're super and their 4 0 1
Ks, wherever they're listening around the
world, they, their money that is designed
to go into a system and work for them.
That system is not designed for
them, but they've been told that.
Uh, it, it is working for
them 8% over 20 years.
You'll be fine.
Everything will be fine.
Don't, just don't look over here.
They use the fancy terms of quantitative
easing and, uh, easing and, and
quantitative tightening and yield curve
control and all this kinda stuff that.
I just, from the experience I've had, I
don't think people really know what to do.
Now, what is, what is becoming really,
really relevant is that on telly, there
is the Debasement trade and Bitcoin
is around the world are going what?
That's, we've been talking about that.
That's why we buy Bitcoin.
What is the basement Trade is not a thing.
It's, it's been around for a long
time and you guys continue to do it.
That's why we buy Bitcoin.
Um, and so, yeah, I, I just, I
try to focus on the people that
are going, okay, well, something
doesn't smell right here and.
Uh, and I feel for them because, you
know, they're just not, they're not, they
don't have a path to financial freedom and
there's nothing worse than having no hope.
You know, I don't wanna get too deep, but
having no hope of, you know, if you've
got a couple hundred grand in super and
you're 50 and you've got 15 years left,
and you sort of do the numbers and you
go, well, that's gonna get me maybe
five years of life post-retirement.
It just, yeah.
I think we're on, we're
on the verge of something.
Uh, hopefully changing there.
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Anja: I really hope so.
I really hope so.
And this is why I'm willing to cope.
Copious amounts of criticism
online from people who question
motives and say you disparaging
things about Bitcoin and about me.
Like it's just, it, it's worth it.
Oh yeah.
Especially on LinkedIn as well.
Like I've just recently
had a comment on YouTube.
Um, basically someone saying that
Bitcoin will need an obituary soon.
We've heard that many times.
At least 460 or whatever it is.
Um.
But yeah, I do get a lot of criticism
on LinkedIn, which is just the funniest
from tried five from people in very high
positions like C-E-O-C-F-O, um, positions.
But for every criticism,
there's also a lot of positives.
So a lot of.
People in those same positions and
those same industries, like the
traditional finance industry do follow
my content and they do support it.
So it's like we're kind of
at that cusp in Australia at
least, where it's still weird.
Like I, I've had so many of
my ex colleagues reach out to
me, say, Hania, I'm a Bitcoin.
I've been in Bitcoin for a while.
I really like it.
But they'll never engage with my content.
And I'm not offended by it at all,
because they just are still, you know,
the social stigma that's around it.
They just don't wanna have
that against their name.
Completely understand.
Um, I think that we'll
see that turnaround soon.
Um, but yeah, we're still at
that weird place where it's like
everyone's talking about it.
A few people are really against it.
Um, a few people are open-minded
and then the majority's just quiet,
like observing what's going on.
Ben: Yeah.
Anja: Yeah.
Ben: I don't think.
Yeah.
And I can't believe, you know, I, the,
the world is full of, uh, you know, the
online algorithm loves to show you hate.
That's all I seem to experience
sometimes is, uh, the algorithm
just thrives on showing people hate.
So, uh, I would just say
ignore the uneducated.
Um, but yeah, it's, it's it, we're
still so early in the journey
of Bitcoin that people, um.
Almost see it as an attack on, on them.
If you, if you are, if you're a Bitcoin,
you're against the current system or it's
a scam, or it's, you know, so they just
view, they put you in a box and they say,
Hey, um, because they don't understand it.
They don't understand what you are
talking about and your passion.
And, uh, all they know
is that it's a scam.
It's some Ponzi scheme.
And how could you possibly believe
in a scam or a Ponzi scheme?
So again, it's just like people trying
to understand something that they
don't, they aren't educated about.
Commenting, um, complete rubbish.
So, yeah.
Yeah.
Forget the hate.
So
Anja: who, who told you Bitcoin's a scam?
Did the people who printed
trillions of dollars tell you that?
Ben: Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
The same people that said you're, uh,
a conservative, uh, portfolio of, um,
of, of diversified stocks and bonds
will get you to financial freedom.
How's that travel?
Anja: Yeah, but you said something
earlier on as well that uh, uh,
again, I'm so triggered by, and that
is the whole superannuation thing.
This is another thing I'm really,
really passionate about, is just
educating people about their, their
option to get their self-managed
super fund and start investing in
Bitcoin, even if it's a portion of it.
Um, it's just so important,
um, to understand that because.
Another thing that I find immensely
triggering is the industry standard
that you are like, I guess.
Told to use as a benchmark that
what you need to retire on.
So very loosely, please go validate this.
Um, for individuals it's around
500,000 or 600,004 couples.
It's maybe six or seven.
I can't exactly remember,
but it's around there.
And.
Ben: Quite enough.
Yeah.
Anja: When you look at those figures
and you look at the cost of living in
Australia and you assume an inflation
rate of seven to 8%, um, you are
really gonna have to live, die soon
and, you know, live a very frugal
lifestyle where you can't travel.
And as a retiree, you can't
afford overseas holidays.
You might not even be
able to afford heating.
Like it's just, I I, you have to
eat, you know, processed fiat food.
Um, it's, it's just immensely triggering
and this is why, um, for the first
time in my life, I found, I have found
something where I'm like, absolutely
not embarrassed to speak up about this.
Um, no matter how much
criticism I receive.
And yeah, if I, yeah, I, I know I'm
on the right side of history, so
Ben: Yeah, I was gonna say, yeah,
I won't, I won't swear too much.
Uh, criticism.
The thing is such a polarizing world
where we're creating sides, right?
You know, it's blue, blue team, red team.
You're, you're a green or you're a
Democrat, or you're a Republican.
Can we just stop with the sides?
Can we stop with the
putting everyone in groups?
All, all you are doing, all I'm doing,
all the Bitcoiners are doing, and, and
even for the fact that the non bitcoiners,
the people that are trying, all we're
trying to do is have a better life.
All we're trying to do is earn money.
Look after our kids if you have
them, or look after your family.
You just want for a better life.
And, and that's, that's the deeper
value of Bitcoin is that you, when you,
when you recognize that the path to
freedom in Bitcoin is you get to control
the, in regards to where you want, you
know how you wanna control your money.
And why?
What's wrong with that?
What, what's wrong with, with
wanting a better life via Bitcoin
or via Gold or whatever, um, you
know, strategy you've got and.
The majority of of people have been
told to just how many years did we work?
And, and super was just
looked after for us.
But where does that super go?
Where is it invested?
A lot of it's invested in government
policies and government funded projects.
A lot of it, a lot of it's
invested in, in, uh, bonds.
A lot of it's invested
in just standard ETFs.
And how are they
performing against Bitcoin?
How are they performing against gold?
How are they performing against hard
assets that don't need any management?
It's just a rock in the ground.
Um, the other one's just a, when I
say just, it's just a digital monetary
network backed by math and energy.
Okay, well then you start to
realize, well, I don't need to
pay you 4% to look after my money.
I don't need to pay all the fees.
All I just need to know is the truth.
And so in seeking the truth, which
is what you've done and others, and
Bitcoin is around the world, all they're
doing is trying to find a better life.
So, um, having, having that as your basis
for, you know, being a someone that wants
to learn about Bitcoin, if you look,
if you've got $10 million saved up in
the bank and you're retired, uh, look.
The life's pretty good for you, right?
You, you don't really need to start
going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole
if you don't want to, but this is why
it's a bottom up, bottom up movement.
This is why it's a not a top down monetary
network network, it's, it's for people
that are in Zimbabwe or in Turkey,
Lebanon, Venezuela, or even in Australia
that are just going, I can't get ahead.
So that's the option for people
to go, why can't I get ahead?
And it's around monetary debasement and
inflation and corruption around the money.
And if you, if you then connect all
of that to what's my solution to that,
then Bitcoin is one of those solutions.
Why do you need to put people on the side?
Just go, Hey, I'm looking
for a better life.
What do you want?
Okay, well on financial
freedom, when do you want it by?
I wanna be 50, 55 and I wanna
have some financial freedom.
Great.
What does that look like?
What number is that and what return are
you going to need with the surplus money
that you're investing to get that goal?
That's it.
That's, that's all it is.
Okay.
If you wanna be 55 and you need a
million dollars in the bank, okay, great.
Do the numbers.
'cause you, and I'll tell you what you
do, the numbers, you're not getting
there on the six to 8% or the 9% that
you're getting through your super
at the moment, after you adjust for
monetary debasement not happening.
So that's why I say in my videos, you
know, you need, you need a 15 to 20%.
Because that is then the true eight to
10% that you are net after debasement.
So, and you mentioned on that
around, uh, super, you, this is
one of the intriguing things about.
Managing your own super is that
you start to get the control of
how do I dial up that return?
How do I dial it up to get 15 to 20%?
And I've done a few videos on this, on
what it would mean to have a diversified
portfolio of few of, of, let's say Bitcoin
gold and maybe some stocks if you wanted
to just play, uh, play it consistently
across a few different, um, asset classes.
And you don't need to take amazing risk.
You don't need to be like me or others who
have 90% of their net worth in Bitcoin.
To do that, the, the dial
only needs to be turned up.
And this is not financial
advice by the way.
It's just an example of what I've done
in the past and what I've analyzed is
that you only need to maybe dial up 20 to
25% or 30% of your portfolio of super to
be allocated to gold or bitcoin across,
you know, a 5, 10, 15 year time horizon.
It gets you 15 to 20% based
on historical performance.
Um, you know, you don't have
to go and risk all the, all the
chickens, is what I'm saying.
Anja: Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm pretty conservative in my
estimates in for the next 10 years.
Like I like to go.
I think it's gonna be 30% compound
annual growth rate, but I even like to
calculate at 25 and just put up inflation
to eight and just, you know, be super
conservative and then be pleasantly
surprised by, I guess better outcomes.
Um, but yeah.
I am also conscious of time.
Um, I wanted to ask you in particular,
you know, having been in Bitcoin for
a number of years now, can you see
a difference in your family life?
Before and after Bitcoin?
Ben: Yeah, definitely.
Yep.
Because I think it starts, it starts at
the top, it starts with the family, uh,
sorry, it starts with, uh, mom and dad or
however your family dynamics are set up.
It's, it starts with the, with us.
So I found when I was on the journey
of, of building my business and
going the grind and trying to get
to the point where I was just.
You know, flogging yourself at, at, at
ridiculous hours and pace to get a number.
Um, you're not, you're not the best
father, you're not the best husband.
Uh, and so when you have, when you
have a clear goal in mind of, of,
okay, this is starting to really give
me some freedom of time, you can start
to become a better person, better
father, better husband, um, and just
have a better outlook on the world.
And so I think a lot of the
problems in the world today are.
Around money, around how difficult
it's for people, uh, to, to hit
those, um, you know, to achieve
those financial goals that they have.
So yeah, for us, um, it wasn't
immediate, but it was, Hey,
we're on this journey together.
And now the kid, the
kids even own Bitcoin.
I, I took their, I took their, um, I
took their CommBank, uh, saver accounts.
I closed them.
Uh, they were getting it.
You should have seen the
return they were getting on.
It was amazing.
It was like a dollar 50 a year.
I couldn't believe how
good the return was.
Um, and so we, uh, we put it into
Bitcoin and so my daughter who's,
uh, well they're turning, um, turning
17 and 14 over the next few months.
Uh, they've got their, you know, savings
in Bitcoin and they save in Bitcoin.
I put it in cold storage.
So, yeah, it's just this fun
family journey we've been on
and hopefully it continues.
Anja: Yes.
Love that.
Love that so much.
That is just like the, this is
what really inspires me the most.
And these are the kind of stories that
I really wanna share with the audience
because it is everyday families,
Australian families, having their lives
turned around, you know, having more.
Time with their loved ones.
Like that's all we want
at the end of the day.
No matter, like you said, where, where you
sit on the political spectrum, we all just
wanna have a better quality of life and
this is what Bitcoin helps people achieve.
But obviously the big caveat is study
it, know what you hold, um, because it
is a very volatile asset and there are
so many emotions to manage around that.
Um.
But yeah.
Do you have any final thoughts?
Obviously I'll share all of your, like
links, um, to your website, to your
social media in the show notes, and yeah.
Do you have any final messages for
the audience that you'd like to share?
Speaker 7: I've really
enjoyed talking with you.
I would just encourage people
to, uh, don't be a sheep.
Uh, don't take other people's word
for it, including minor onions.
Go and do your research because doing
the research can mean that you have, you
change your future, not just for you,
but you change your future for your kids.
You change, you, you, I'm not talking
about generational wealth, but you help
your kids understand what money is.
Uh, money isn't everything, but it
certainly helps and so especially
when it's getting stolen from you.
It's okay if it's not getting stolen from
you or if it's not being debased, but
if you recognize that your hard earned
money is being stolen from you, that's
probably a good point to start to go,
Hey, maybe I need to do some research.
And when you do the research,
just find trusted people.
They're easy to find.
Go to a's podcast, go to my
Instagram channel, um, and fall.
Fall in willingly.
Don't, you know, be skeptical, but
know that there already, uh, there
already is a problem that exists and
your, your journey is to search and
find the solution to that problem.
Might be Bitcoin, might not be, but
whatever you do, don't stay where you are.
Don't stay in, in neutral, going
backwards with your money being
stolen from you, from the government.
'cause I can tell you it's gonna
continue at a pace that you, you
don't see, but it's gonna get worse.
So, um, yeah.
Be, be, uh, be motivated by
trying to find a solution for your
family and, and, and your goals.
Like, just get out there and have a go.
Anja: Love that so much.
Thanks for your time, Ben.
You're welcome, Manu.
I enjoyed it.
Thank you.
Speaker 4: Still here you
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