Lessons from the Motorsports Cluster with Mark Preston

In this episode of Oxford+, host Susannah de Jager is joined by Mark Preston, CTO of StreetDrone to talk about the motorsports cluster in Oxford and the challenges and opportunities it presents. They discuss the need for talent mobility, the impact of Brexit on the industry, and the importance of attracting headquarters and startups to the region. Mark and Susannah also take the opportunity to discuss the potential of clusters in other sectors and the need for government support and better immigration policies to attract and retain talent.

(0:12) Introduction
(1:13) Background and early entrepreneurship
(4:19) Exploring the Motorsport Cluster in Oxford
(10:47) Brexit friction
(14:44) National Works Programmes and large scale funding solutions
(18:35) Growing pains
(25:31) StreetDrone and Future Prospects

About the guest:
Mark Preston is the CTO of StreetDrone, a pre-seed company developing low-speed, hyper-local deliveries in ports, commercial settings and local neighbourhoods. Mark also has experience within Formula One, having run multiple teams' engineering departments before moving into strategy and executive management within Formula E.

Connect with Mark on LinkedIn

About the host:
Susannah de Jager is a seasoned professional with over 15 years of experience in UK asset management. She has worked closely with industry experts, entrepreneurs, and government officials to shape the conversation around domestic scale-up capital.

Connect with Susannah on LinkedIn

Visit our website to learn more and subscribe to our newsletter - oxfordplus.co.uk
If you have a question for Susannah, please get in touch - oxfordplus.co.uk/contact

Oxford+ is hosted by Susannah de Jager, supported by Mischon de Reya and produced and edited by Story Ninety-Four in Oxford.

Creators & Guests

Host

Susannah de Jager

Founder & Host of Oxford+

Producer

Matt Eastland-Jones

Founder & Producer at Story Ninety-Four

Editor

Nick Short

Podcast Producer & Audio Technician at Story Ninety-Four

What is Oxford+?

Welcome to Oxford+, the podcast series that explores the myths and truths of the Oxford investing landscape hosted by Susannah de Jager. Since moving to Oxford, Susannah has collaborated with experts, entrepreneurs, and government to shape the conversation around domestic scale-up capital. Oxford+ aims to inform, inspire, and connect. We'll talk to Founders, investors, academics, politicians, and facilitators and explore how Oxford is open for business.

Welcome to Oxford+, the podcast series
that takes you deep into the myths and

truths of the Oxford investing landscape.

I'm your host, Susannah de
Jager and I've spent over 15

years in UK asset management.

My guest today is Mark Preston.

Mark has a degree from Monash
University in engineering, which he

initially applied to Formula One.

Having run multiple teams engineering
departments, he subsequently moved

into strategy and executive management.

More recently, he's focused on
Formula E, leading the DS Cheetah team

before founding StreetDrone in 2016.

Mark is currently CTO of
StreetDrone, a pre-seed company

developing low speed, hyper-local
deliveries in ports, commercial

settings and local neighbourhoods.

Mark, thank you so much
for joining me today.

Looking forward to chatting
in this lovely setting here.

Wonderful.

I'm excited to get your perspective
because so far lots of the guests

we've had have been focused on the
university ecosystem and you obviously

come with a different perspective.

It might be really helpful for
those listening to hear a little bit

more about your background and how
you ended up founding StreetDrone.

Sure.

So I'm from Australia, from a city
called Geelong, which is actually

the, kind of the Ford town in
Australia, so I grew up around cars.

After doing mechanical engineering, I
joined GM in Australia, GM Holden, which

is a part of the GM infrastructure, I
suppose, around the world, as an engineer,

then I moved over to a company called TWR,
Holden Special Vehicles, so in project

management and those kind of things.

Then the guy who owned that, his name
was Tom Walkinshaw, he bought a Formula

One team in the UK, he's from Scotland,
was from Scotland, he passed away.

So I joined, came over to do F1
for two weeks or two years, and

25 years later, I'm still here
doing all sorts of technology and

motorsport and those kind of things.

Worked at Arrows Grand Prix for about
six years, then I went to McLaren F1

for a few years and then decided to
do my MBA and that's the connection

sort of to the university when I came
in and did my EMBA at Saïd Business

School and during the MBA, I started
a Formula One team with Honda.

As one does.

Oh, yes, it was good fun.

So that was my kind of first
start-up, let's call it, big start

up while doing, connected to the
university, but doing a bit of both.

So we started the Formula One team, which
was a pretty crazy venture in Oxfordshire.

Sadly, Honda pulled out of that and
we bought the assets and started

another company which is a composites
company called FormTech Composites,

which still operates down in Milton
Park, so not so far away and then I

got involved in the next big thing,
which was Formula Electric, which

Alejandro started way back in 2012,
which now seems like a long time ago.

I suppose in parallel, one of the
connections there to the university

was after my MBA, I wanted to
see if I could help some other

startups out of university, and
they introduced me to two startups.

One was Oxford YASA motors, which
sold recently and I helped them to do

the business planning and everything,
which is how I got involved in electric

motors and started to understand about
what could be the future of automotive

and transportation in the world, so
that was my kind of big connection, I

suppose, to the university by helping
them to start up and, spin out.

There was another one called T-TEC, which
is tidal energy turbines, but that was

a bit more of a bigger project, which we
couldn't get off the ground because it's

just such big engineering and I suppose
UK is not quite so used to doing what I

would call public works projects nowadays.

But anyway, that was an
interesting one as well.

So I got involved in Formula Electric
and along the way started to look

at what else was going to happen
in my favorite world of automotive,

which turned out to be autonomous.

So with a colleague of mine, Mike Potts,
we started StreetDrone to have a look

at autonomous vehicles and support,
initially some of the startups that were

also happening in the UK with vehicles
and that's kind of where we're up to now.

Wonderful, thank you, that was a really
excellent whistle stop tour of a,

of quite a long and detailed career.

I mean, I think it would be fair to
say you've got a lot of experience

and you very kindly touched on how
it integrated with the university

and more distinct from it.

Something when we met the other day that
really struck me and it's my naivety I'm

sure, not other people's, but you know,
Oxford+ is talking about the university

and outside of it and you actually
articulated just on the scale of the

motorsports cluster, you know, kind of
near Oxford and I'm really interested

firstly to hear a bit more about it, but
also when the UK talks about trying to

build clusters, I can't help thinking
there's so much we could learn from the

existing ones and I'd love to get your
perspective on how it operates and what

I suppose the distinct characteristics
are that we should be trying to emulate.

Yeah, I find it really interesting,
the whole cluster here.

So there's, of the F1 teams, we're
the ones that drive the cluster.

So I'm not going to count how many
there are at the moment, I'm going for

the six or seven depending on whether
they've got satellite offices here as

well, so you may not realise that some
of them still have offices here, even

if they're not primarily based here and
that sort of spreads from Silverstone,

being the racetrack and then down as
far as obviously McLaren in London, but

up as far as Mercedes high performance
engines, at least that's one of the

more famous ones at the, in Northampton.

So there's about 40, 000 people that work
in the industry and it's probably driven,

the thing that I found is the most similar
to Silicon Valley is I think there's

what they call high labor mobility,
meaning if a project fails or stops,

like we've had a few projects stop when
a car company pulls out, it doesn't take

long for all those people to get taken
up into the next project or expansion or

growth or something and I think that's
quite key because it means people aren't

afraid to lose their jobs, which sounds
terrible, but it sort of shows that

mobility of people means that it shouldn't
be a problem to shut something down.

That's not great, but it does
allow for things to ebb and

flow and grow and change.

Well it's not backwater, is it?

You're not trying to hire somebody into
somewhere where they've kind of backed

into a cul-de-sac if it fails and so I
should imagine that attracting that top

talent, when there's that optionality,
just that much more appealing.

Like, oh, well if it fails, at least I
haven't moved my whole family somewhere.

Exactly and that's what you find a lot of
people from all the countries around the

world, including myself, lots of Italians
and French and Germans and everybody

that are in, Spanish, et cetera, that all
come and live in this region, in order to

work in motorsports and that huge supply
chain is very high tech, very high end.

We've had some startups, or helped a
few things out of Oxford, where often

Formula One will experiment way earlier
than anybody else, so universities are

known for doing the low TRL levels, so
the Technology Readiness Levels, and F1

would often scoop those levels up really
low down, so sort of three and four and

have a go at them or play and see whether
those things are viable and if they're

viable, perhaps help them scale up or
at least go from sort of four to six and

then use it and then if it doesn't work,
then pass it on or it then grows its own

way because F1's helped to get it going.

So it's great because it can afford
higher priced products at the beginning,

especially if they're high performance
and so I don't know if we've used

the opportunities well enough in the
region to, it has been used, but I'm

sure it could be used more in order to
help, some companies spin out quicker.

Interesting.

Just coming back to the elements,
what you've described is a really

high functioning and one of the main
clusters and what we've described

is one of the main benefits of that,
so the talent cycling, and obviously

the funding of sort of things coming
out of the university, early stage

technology with a natural buyer.

But if we want to create that in a maybe
slightly different area, it sounds like

potentially it's quite difficult because
it almost relies upon a sort of critical

mass in order to function, not maybe
the latter part, but the talent element.

So are there sort of, I suppose, areas
that are maybe stand alongside Formula

One that we could kind of naturally
be cycling talent into them and so

there's a natural place to sort of
point to that's adjacent, I suppose?

Yeah, I'm a big fan of, obviously
do my MBA of the competitiveness of

nations, you know, what you should
be doing, what you're good at.

Yeah.

Makes sense.

Like a kind of a joke that, you know,
if you're going to buy surfboards,

maybe you might buy an Australian
surfboard, but if you're going to buy

a car, I'm not so sure we should really
have a big car industry in Australia.

If you want to buy mining equipment maybe,
or you know, so I think in some ways

things should match what's going on there.

There's certainly a lot of government
strategies which follow along some

of the main themes in motorsports,
things like, advanced materials, so the

machines to do the rapid prototyping and
printing perhaps, you know, that becomes

a separate stream, supported by the F1
teams who use them considerably now.

So high value engineering,
rapid manufacturing of parts,

experimenting with things, things
on the kind of bleeding edge.

So I think there are a lot of
companies that can benefit from being

close to the F1 teams and then can
help those technologies spin out.

I mean, there's a lot of discussion at
the moment about synthetic fuels and

other things which F1 is pushing for the
2026 season and so there are startups and

there's obviously a lot of R&D going on
in chemistry departments and those kinds

of things at all the big universities.

So again, there's ways in which those
departments can link to some of the

technology that's developing and then
hopefully spin that over to F1 to kind of

kickstart things and then maybe then find
their way to, interestingly, the classic

car industry in the UK, which is massive.

So there's all these things that
can then take that technology from

the, let's say beachhead market, to
the next market to the next market.

So, this is certainly a
lot of optionality here.

Really interesting, and you spoke
about the fact that a lot of the

companies might actually just have
a satellite office, it might not be

their headquarters that are here.

In your experience of having worked
in Formula One, could we be doing more

to attract more headquarters here?

You know, I had a slightly depressing
kind of sitting in traffic moment

on the weekend, not even during the
week, thinking, gosh, if you were

looking to set up a company or a
headquarters, this traffic issue in

Oxford might, really put you off.

That's a bit prosaic, but in your
experience, you know, should the

government be doing more to try and
attract headquarters here so that they

then supplement clusters and supplement
what's coming out of the university?

I think the biggest problem we've
come across is Brexit, again.

I wasn't, was I doing F1?

Yeah, I was probably doing F1 back
in the days when we probably, some of

the trucks would have to drive across
Europe through borders where you

required this thing called a Carne,
which is a piece of paper that let,

you have to list every single thing.

Not stealing the car!

Yeah you to list every single thing
in the vehicle and you're, in the

truck, sorry, being delivered.

Oh, sorry, it's delivering the cars and
nowadays you also have to put where the

origin of every part is and so you can
imagine when a race team takes things

from the UK to now back into Europe to
go racing, the amount of paperwork and

everything is just phenomenal again.

So that's a big barrier we're having,
we're actually looking ourselves

at having an office in Europe.

So that we can get around some
of the having to import export.

So we might buy something from Europe,
do something to it and then send it back.

So now we're looking at can we do,
because we've got some things going

on in Rotterdam at StreetDrone.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it'd be easier just to send that to
Rotterdam and do the work in Rotterdam,

then bring those parts over to the
UK, do the work here and take it back.

So there's all of that practicality
and as I say I haven't experienced it

recently in motorsports, but I know what
we're having to do at StreetDrone, so

therefore that is certainly very painful.

Some of these big areas like Milton Park
and what MEPC is doing up at Silverstone,

growing the technology centers, we did
look at, one point when we were looking

to where to put an office with some
of the tax breaks on some of the areas

which are seen as free, is it free zones?

Or there's areas where you can
have business rate relief for a

while to encourage someone to,
you know, set up something here.

A lot to do, of course, education and
then the problem with sponsorship.

Sponsoring people, actually getting
enough people to work for you

and then make it easy for us to
bring people into the country.

So, because we're in the high end
areas, roboticists and all of that,

you know, ourselves and other startups
are taking a lot of those people, so

it's, we do have a lot of, staff coming
from overseas, and so the sponsorship

side of things is just slow and
difficult compared to before Brexit.

So there's lots of barriers that have been
put in place in the last number of years

that slow us down and mean that we're
having to do different things in different

countries in order to get around them.

Yeah, slightly depressing to hear.

Yes.

I mean, yeah, the educational kind
of, or the high value visas thing I've

heard before from other people and it
does seem to me that it's something

there's been a bit of a noise on
from the government, but not that

much action perhaps just yet, and...

Yeah.

And fight for talent and bringing them in.

We've, we're certainly having to,
you know, have people to help us get

all of those visas sorted out and,
you know, it takes a few months to

get somebody overseas, can't react
as quickly as you can, let's say if

the person is currently at university
and would like to keep working.

There are some visas that allow that
to happen reasonably quickly, but

you also need to check is that person
going to be allowed to stay after that

degree that they're doing that allows
them to work here for a little while.

Yeah, it's an interesting point.

I think somebody told me the total number
of global PhDs and it wasn't large.

I mean, I suppose it's a really
high level of education, so it

shouldn't be that surprising.

But I think it was like 10,000 a
year and when you think of that

as a sort of, how do we grab them?

How do we make sure that it's really
easy and appealing for them to come here?

I think I even heard that, and I might
get this wrong, but I'm pretty sure

it was Qatar that was basically saying
if you move to Qatar with a PhD, we'll

pay you £75,000 a year just to sit
while you work out what you might do.

Oh, okay.

Just what you might do here so that
the talent will actually arrive.

Brexit friction.

I thought I didn't realise you
could call it Brexit fiction.

Friction, sorry, that's a
fiction maybe, but friction, yes.

It was the...

It was the fiction that the
friction would go, wasn't it?

That's the good joke there.

Yes.

So, we've obviously spoken about
your experience of the cluster, but

you have had some experience of the
University too, if you'd be happy to

share, I think it's quite interesting.

So when I started looking at the tidal
energy turbines with the guys from

the civil engineering department, a
novel new technology, looks like a

big lawnmower on its side, like old
fashioned lawnmower, barrel lawnmower.

But the problem with those type of
turbines is they're very big and you

have to step towards the kind of risk.

So in the end, you want to do something
like the Seven Barrier, which goes right

across that area and have a huge natural
energy turbine, or places like the Orkney

Islands in the north and when you go
and watch the power of the waves in the

Orkney Islands, the problem is going from
this sort of small demonstrator that's

in the university's water tanks doing
testing to this thing that would have

to be 70 meters long at each section.

You can imagine if something goes
wrong and that gets washed away.

It's not like you're testing something
on land where, all right, if the

wind energy turbine starts to creak
and groan or something, you could

probably go up and take a blade off.

But in this, you put it in the water
and then it could just get washed

away and that's the end of that.

So, the difficulty was looking
at going from that right up

to a full scale operation.

We worked out the cost of capital would
have to be so low that the only way

you could do it we thought was doing
it as a national works project, as

they used to call them in the old days.

So, almost going back to the days of
Brunel and everything in the 1890s

when we did so much stuff in the UK.

It built so many big things.

Like speed railways or something.

Just as an example.

Yes, when China's building how many
thousand kilometers per day or something.

Don't!

So that is a bit of a disappointment that
we couldn't find a way to scale up such

a risky project, but the fact that how
much tidal energy we have around the UK.

So it would require a different way
of thinking, I think, to get such a

big engineering project over the line.

Obviously, we've got a lot of wind
turbines on and offshore, which is

great, although that seems to be
slowing slightly in the offshore ones.

But yeah, the tidal energy turbines
are another step in terms of their

complexity, not really, but more risk as
you build up to what you're trying to do.

And in terms of when you had that
realisation that the capital required

was just going to be massive and that it
would have to be a completely different

type of investor, did you actually then
go and try and talk to government at

all, or was it just something that you
spoke to people and you said, well,

there isn't the natural buyer of this?

I did actually go down to Westminster
and have a discussion, I don't

know which department it was.

I can't remember now.

They've all changed.

Yeah, so it could be so, probably energy
I imagine, just to actually ask them, did

they ever see a point at which something
like this could work and did they agree

with me that this is the type of different
thought process would have to happen?

And they, basically agreed with
me, we didn't find a solution.

So I kind of said, okay that's,
we're not going to be able to go any

further unless we can figure out a
way of getting past that hurdle, or

there was another solution, which
we at the time didn't come up with.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because
in the project that I've been involved

with for a while and it's now finished,
we were talking to government quite a

lot trying to understand if more pension
capital could be released perhaps, you

know, to create a larger, natural UK,
not completely altruistic, but you know,

at sufficiently large scale that there
might be projects like you're describing,

I think, that could fit within it and
it did oscillate a little bit in the

two years we were engaging with them,
as I think things got a little bit less

positive, but what was interesting was
this sort of dialogue or rhetoric or

kind of almost dogma, dare I say it,
of that's a private sector problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we as the public sector
don't think we should intervene.

Yeah.

And it's really interesting because it
slightly belies the reality of other

countries and what they're doing and
again, with a slightly cynical hat

on, state aid rules are viewed quite
differently in different places and the

way that they are interpreted and enforced
in some countries is a bit more sort of,

well that's fine and that we maybe hurt
our own chances by being the most literal.

We have made use of the
smaller size funding.

So the Entrepreneurs
Investment Scheme which...

Absolutely.

...works really wonderfully,
that's for the very low level.

If you match that with what actually
an F1 team's like, you would say

that we're still better at doing the
early stage and not so great at the,

you know, scaling up side of things.

So getting it from tier level
one up to eight, seven eighths,

and then it seems to need a U.S.

or maybe Germany or France or something to
scale something to a really large scale.

So one end is quite good, but it doesn't
seem to be able to get across that valley

of death into the next big scale up.

And I think you make a good point
around SEIS and EIS is a really great

scheme and actually I think the Tony
Blair Institute have put out some

interesting stuff on this recently just
saying we need to effectively continue

that virtuous continuum of capital by
incentivising people and even perhaps go

as far as, and again lots of countries
do this, incentivising UK pension

funds to invest for tax breaks in UK
based technology so that's a virtuous

cycle and it's not a kind of giveaway.

It's in order to create that
virtuous ecosystem within

the UK that benefits the UK.

So it's not an expenditure on the kind
of lack of tax take, it should be seen

as an investment by the government.

The other problem is, of course, I
come from, coming from Australia where

we've only got now 25 million people
now from how big it is, compared to

when you look at someone like the U.S.

obviously with the 300 plus
and UK obviously here with was

80 now or something like that.

But then we've just, you know, made the
Brexit friction higher in dealing with

the other big market that's right next
to us and so I can also see why a lot

of people go to the US because it's,
I'm not gonna say it's easier, it's

just, you know, if you write instruction
manual in English and you're selling

in California, which is the fifth
biggest market in the world, isn't it?

And then you can just take that to the
states nearby without having to change

all, not too many of your rules as far as
I understand and therefore it's easier to

incrementally grow in that first stage.

So you're going from a place as big as
the UK and you're expanding out quite fast

if you can to a market that's then four
times as big or whatever the number is,

whereas we're slowing that down over here.

So It's sort of logical that you can't
scale up something as easily from the

UK, unless, like I went back to that
silly idea about surfboards, you can

sell more surfboards in Australia.

So what's that same area?

We're pretty good at pharmaceuticals
here for example, and obviously

the university has a big chemistry
and pharmaceutical side of things.

So there are, I don't know.

areas that we seem to be able
to scale up, in some way.

Not quite sure, I haven't sat down
and tried to figure out why some

things can scale and other things
can't, but certainly high value, low

volume products that seem to be okay.

But then yeah, there's others that don't
seem to be able to scale up from here.

And it's interesting because coming back
to where we started the conversation,

thinking about the cluster, you know,
potentially when you have that experience

of how to scale something and the
ambition, because that talent has been

able to stay here, because there is an
existing cluster, even though, as you

say, the friction is greater now because
it's incumbent here, it's harder to move

it perhaps than it is just to stay put.

But, you know, something that I hear a
lot about is that scaling talent isn't

here for many other industries and so
people's experience is that they need

to go elsewhere because they literally
don't have a playbook, or because the

playbook is to go into another larger
same language domestic market, i.e.

the U.S., that sort of automatic
moving and listing in America and

then the lack of recycled talent that
has the experience of that journey.

So it's all a complete
kind of, yeah, catch 22.

I mean, they talk a lot about
smartphones in saying that, could you

build a smartphone in America now?

I'm not sure if you could because
there's such depth to, I think they call

it the creative commons, don't they?

The tiers down below the main person, OEM
who makes the main product like the phone.

We're not having the people who know
how to do the glass or the other things.

It makes it harder to
then scale something up.

So obviously that's why there's
a lot of discussion in the U.

S.

to bring back parts of the value chain.

So you've got half a chance
to scale some of those things.

Obviously we've still got some
car companies here in the UK, but

there is more of them in the US.

Although, you know, you watch Tesla,
it's still been difficult for them to

scale up something even in the US and
they've almost gone bankrupt a few

times, haven't they, on the way there.

but if it weren't for Elon, they
probably wouldn't have got there

in the end and there's a lot of
others struggling to get there.

So even in the US, it's hard to scale up
in some areas because there's not enough

of the, yeah, the supply chain that's
got its expertise nearby, let's say.

So that's a curiosity.

I'm not quite sure what you do about
that exactly to, because then you have

to think about picking winners and
you know, what should we be scaling

up in here and what shouldn't we
be scaling up and what works best?

I mean, I know the government does
a pretty good job at it in terms

of, there's a lot of things with
Innovate UK and KTNs, the knowledge

transfer networks working on which
sectors that we should be looking at.

So high value manufacturing
and those kinds of things

certainly do get a lot of help.

There's a fair amount of research
in batteries and all those elements

which we see in F1, but then scaling
it is the bit, I'm not sure we, the

British fault didn't, I don't know
where the British fault's up to now.

I don't think it's very good.

Yes.

So...

Aren't they being courted by America?

Wasn't that the last thing with the IRA?

Yeah, the Inflation Reduction Act suddenly
looking quite appealing to go elsewhere.

So one of those big scale ups that
could have happened is also struggling.

So, but that means you've got to have
the natural volume to support, etc.

So it's complicated, I suppose.

Yeah.

I mean, the message I'm hearing is that,
you know, and one sees this, that we're

very good at creating sort of, I think it
was somebody said, it might have even been

Kwasi Kartang, you know, that we create
the nursery bed for the rest of the world

to then come and kind of cherry pick our
best ideas and take them elsewhere and

scale them and obviously, it's not the
worst place to be, we're still coming

up with great ideas, but we're not then
reaping the benefits at the other end

of it because they've gone elsewhere,
relocated, that talent has gone elsewhere,

and that entrepreneurial experience that
we want recycled here is also not here.

Taking a slightly different step, I'd love
to hear a bit more about your experience

of StreetDrone and where you guys are up
to and what the sort of completely other

end of the spectrum at the moment, what
the opportunities and hurdles that you're

seeing on a more day to day level are.

Yeah, so with StreetDrone,
we've actually benefited from a

lot of the government funding.

So, Innovate UK through CKEV and Zenzic,
which are the groups that look after the

connected and autonomous vehicles, you
know, they've been very supportive there.

We've been running a project up at
Nissan in Sunderland, so the biggest

manufacturing plant I think in the UK.

And in fairness, the government
have done a lot to keep Nissan here.

I mean, you know, even as a relative lay
person, I've seen that in the newsflows.

So, yeah.

So that's true, yes, and so we've
been running an autonomous truck

and now scaling up to four trucks
up there as part of the next

project, which is, called V-CAL.

Funnily enough, that was actually
sponsored by DCMS, so that was

because they were looking at 5G and
so the first truck was operating,

they call it tele-operation.

So being controlled over a 5G network,
a private 5G network, so there was

a lot of research and work done
there to successfully drive a truck

around, first tele-operated and as
a second stage autonomously or a

combination of the two as we scale up.

What's interesting there is that
actually we've had our first, I'll

call it, export because we're now
doing a similar project in Rotterdam.

So from the export point of view, we've
taken that knowledge and technology

over to Rotterdam and currently running
another truck over there as we scale up.

It is still difficult though,
to raise this next finance.

We've obviously been talking all
around Europe and US, but it's

quite hard and slow process,
especially with the, I suppose,

macro-environment as it is at the moment.

Yeah, it's not an easy fundraising
environment, but what are the

main, not objections, I'm trying to
think, but what are the main kind of

questions that you come up with that
people can't satisfy themselves with?

I think a lot to do with the technology
risk still to be solved, which

is when we see things in the U.S.

with companies like Cruise having
difficulty in San Francisco.

Now we're trying to allay those fears by
saying, look, we're running off highway.

So meaning private roads, which mean
we have different rules, we're running

at slow speed, so we're taking it
sensibly and slowly I suppose is the

difference, but the sort of scale
of funding is different in the U.S.

and so there's a comparison to say well
if Cruise is spending this much money in

the U.S., Why don't you need that much
money and we're saying well we're trying

to minimise what we're trying to achieve
in order to minimise the amount we need.

Certainly the government's supporting
the supply chain side of things.

So also mitigating risk by having more of
a, trying to help create a cluster again,

actually, of companies around the UK so
that we're all cross fertilising in a way.

So we shouldn't be all doing
the same thing over and over,

that's pointless in some ways.

Sharing knowledge.

Yeah.

Sharing or...

Creating a natural portfolio head
to the risk for all the investors.

Because at the end of the day, when you
look at F1, one of the risk minimisations

coming here is that there's a supply
chain that can support you and so when

we started up at Formula One team in,
back in 2005-6, we knew that it's going

to be way, well, almost impossible if
we did it anywhere else in the world.

But if we did it in Oxfordshire, it
made it less than impossible, it made

it just difficult, but that was fun.

So I think that's the same thing, the
government and certainly look, working

hard on regulation because obviously the
basis of our law is different to Europe.

So we can approach the legal
framework slightly differently.

Hurrah an opportunity at last!

Yes, so StreetDrone's been supporting
the law commission and others to, BSI

and others to work on the regulations,
especially we're trying to help frame

the ones that for off highway for
ourselves, although we are also doing

work on highway with some of our vehicles
and some of the partners around the UK.

So there's a lot going on, but
there's a long way to go and having

obviously a stronger in terms of, the
VCs, et cetera, that are into this

area and so the government's doing
a lot to support, but they can only

go so far, until you go back to it.

And does this fall into the remit
of sort of the UK infrastructure

bank or is it outside of it?

I am not the expert on those
ones, but yeah, that'd be great.

We'll talk after!

Certainly, there's a number of,
big startups in Japan and in Europe

that have been funded by the, and
I would be, I may be wrong, but

I believe ECB and other things.

So yes, there is a possibility that is
something we haven't been able to unlock

whereas others have around the world.

Say certainly one of our Japanese,
don't know about competitors, but

certainly someone in this industry has
been supported by that type of fund

and then of course we talk about the
Chinese side of things, which obviously

get funded in a different way and have
quite a lot of strong support behind

them to compete around the world.

So we are coming...

Well, they're not playing on
an electoral cycle, are they?

No, so we are doing some, or we're
proposing some solutions, RFPs,

where we know the competitors are
Chinese and so that'll be interesting

to see how that would play out.

Really interesting.

So they'll be supported I'm sure, in
certain ways and so we'll see if we can...

It comes back to this thing of a sort
of, it's not a level playing field and

yeah, sometimes by being the most law
abiding, and in some ways it's the best

thing about Britain is the common law
is why people want to do business here.

Yes, exactly.

But when you hold yourself to higher
account than everyone else, it does

make business perhaps quite tricky.

Yes.

Interesting.

Mark, thank you, this has
been such an interesting and

broad ranging conversation.

I've really enjoyed it, and particularly
hearing the two experiences you've

had from a much larger kind of
part of the motorsports cluster

and then your experiences as an
entrepreneur coming out of Oxford.

Is there anything else that
you particularly kind of wanted

to add before we round out?

Because I've really enjoyed this.

No, I think it's been
a great conversation.

you can tell from some of the approaches,
I would love to figure out how to join

the cluster of motorsports up better
with the university and startup side of

things, that's been a bit of a passion.

Haven't seen it work as well as I'd like
to, maybe over the last twenty years

or so here that feels like there's got
to be a way of joining up this very

unique, now in on the TV everywhere,
Drive to Survive and everything...

Yeah.

...Sport that's just around the
corner and many of the people live

in Oxford and around Oxford and
in certainly Oxfordshire, as well.

So that's one of those things where
I'd love to join up all these bits of

the puzzle that we've been discussing
in a much more fluid way, I suppose

and reduce some of that friction of
the Brexit side of things would make

it way easier for both the motorsport
cluster and also the startup.

Yeah, both the large and the small.

Yes, see if we can find ways
of joining those things up.

No, and listen, I think that's a very
worthy and probably a good note, a

positive note to end on is that there's
more opportunity and obviously the

goal of this podcast is partly to
have these conversations in a public

domain so that anyone that might be
able to add thoughts or practical

solutions can basically get in touch.

So we would encourage
that to anyone listening.

Sounds good.

Wonderful.

Thank you, Mark.

Thanks for listening to this
episode of Oxford+ presented

by me, Susannah de Jager.

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