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HR entrepreneur Mike Coffey, SPHR, SHRM-SCP engages business thought leaders about the strategic, psychological, legal, and practical implications of bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. As an HR consultant, mentor to first-stage businesses through EO’s Accelerator program, and owner of Imperative—Bulletproof Background Screening, Mike is passionate about helping other professionals improve how they recruit, select, and manage their people. Most thirty-minute episodes of Good Morning, HR will be eligible for half a recertification credit for both HRCI and SHRM-certified professionals. Mike is a member of Entrepreneurs Organization (EO) Fort Worth and active with the Texas Association of Business, the Fort Worth Chamber, and Texas SHRM.
A lot of times, if you're working out on a production floor or a construction side or even out in the field, if you're going to customers' homes or whatever it is, you might not necessarily have a company email. And if you do, you're not sitting in front of a computer all day. So you may or may not see it. So HR tends to be more in person connected, I feel like. We're not sending out.
Marci Sogan:We do send out emails, and we still have newsletters, and we still have our HRIS systems and the mobile apps and everything, but embrace that and take advantage of that in person connection that we have with employees because a lot of other industries and companies don't have that.
Mike Coffey:Good morning, HR. I'm Mike Coffey, president of Imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. And this is the podcast where I talk to business leaders about bringing people together to create value for shareholders, customers, and the community. Please follow rate and review Good Morning HR wherever you get your podcast. You can also find us on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, or at goodmorninghr.com.
Mike Coffey:Business and government concerns about global supply chain, vulnerabilities, competition with China, and global political instability have led to renewed focus on rebuilding the North American manufacturing infrastructure. Traditionally called blue collar jobs, modern manufacturing jobs are often high-tech and well paying, but they also require specific skill sets and training that are not offered in many traditional education pathways. And I'm editorializing here, but our preoccupation with everyone going to college, even when they're better suited for success in a skilled trade, has limited the available pool of workers for an American industrial renaissance. Joining me today to discuss the state of the skilled trades in manufacturing is Marcy Sogen. Marcy is the corporate director of human resources for Anchor Partners, a family office with a specialization in manufacturing and metal companies.
Mike Coffey:She has over 2 decades of HR leadership across industries including retail, technology, private investment, and manufacturing. Welcome to Good Morning HR, Marcy. Thank you, Mike. Thank you for having me. In the intro, I mentioned the term blue collar, which calls to mind the idea of low wage, low skill, back breaking jobs in really challenging environments.
Mike Coffey:But when we're talking about the modern manufacturing jobs, how accurate is that characterization?
Marci Sogan:Yeah. That's not that's not how I would characterize modern jobs. It's it comes across as almost lesser than white collar maybe, and I would not characterize it like that anymore. There's a variety of skills needed, a variety of talents needed. There's some pretty high technology happening with programs and machinery and a lot of robots that need to be operated and ran.
Marci Sogan:So it's not, that's really not a good characterization of it, I don't feel like anymore.
Mike Coffey:And I was just looking on online at what some of these jobs can earn and, like, a lot of the job postings for welders was 20 to $35 an hour. CNC operators was, like, 20 to 35. Robotics technicians, all these other jobs that didn't even exist years ago. Forklift operators making up to like $25 an hour to, you know, operate a forklift. Yeah.
Mike Coffey:And I know from our own clients that some of these automotive technicians out there can make over 6 figures, and so these aren't low wage jobs. And, you know, as as, you know, I'm, you know, I've raised 3 children, and they've all found their path in the world and, but if I had a kid who really wanted to work with his hands and, and wasn't suited for school, I sure wouldn't send him just to go get some, you know, a college degree that didn't have a market concentration on you know, available for it where I could especially if if he could go and he had the 6 you know, the the characteristics that would make him successful in that kind of role.
Marci Sogan:Yeah. Especially if you're taking out student loans to get that degree.
Mike Coffey:Oh, yeah.
Marci Sogan:You're paying out money, paying out money, paying out money for years while you could be learning a trade or a skill, you know, and you, and it takes a while, apprentice and journeyman, and it takes a while to get up to that those steps, but it can be very lucrative, you know, especially because they can start so much sooner. They don't have to wait 4 years to start that income earning potential.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And you mentioned apprentices. So, you know, like electricians, plumbers, pipefitters, people like that, we didn't even talk about. I mean, that's a whole those more traditional skills, they're in demand too. Nobody's nobody's really, you know, they're having a hard time getting people to come into those fields too.
Mike Coffey:Mhmm. So I'm on the workforce solutions board here in Tarrant County, and I'm pretty involved with Fort Worth Chamber of Commerce's workforce development efforts. The thing I keep hearing from employers is that those skill the skilled trades workforce, that older generation, they're getting older, they're retiring, and there's not an up and coming new generation that's available just ready to take their place. Are you seeing that?
Marci Sogan:I am very much seeing that. Yeah. And I think particularly in our industries, that's gonna be a challenge and it's especially for the more experienced. So I think what a lot of companies are doing now, because we we don't have a choice, you know, labor is hard to find as it is, so we create when you can. I mean, some things you have to have licenses and, you know, AC repair or whatever, Walk in the door, start, you know, here, you want to learn how to weld, you want to work your way up, good attitude and and good approach, and companies will train people.
Marci Sogan:We'll train people. So you don't even have to go to sometimes a trade school or a different place to learn those things because the companies will do it internally because sort of have to. That's the way they can find labor.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. I've got we've got clients in the trucking industry that are doing that with for CDLs. They can't you know, they can't find people with and so they're they're they're training them in house and and getting them certified to to drive, you know, commercial motor vehicles.
Marci Sogan:Yeah. Definitely. Something I think is kind of, also a little bit of a unique challenge is as, you know, like you had mentioned, that labor market is getting closer to retirement age, we start to lose some of our leaders. You know, whether it's a a foreman or supervisor or line lead or, you know, whatever it is, we start to lose those leaders. Well, if there haven't been new ones coming in the door, how do we handle that?
Marci Sogan:Do we promote from within just because somebody is a
Mike Coffey:fantastic electrician? Maybe they they might not
Marci Sogan:be, you know, They might have zero desire to do that quite frankly. They don't want to. Right. So finding the next, you know, generation of leaders, I think, is a unique challenge. And and there's, you know, some back and forth, I feel like, on that where some school of thought is, gosh, can you really have somebody manage this group of welders if they haven't been through it themselves and they don't know all the different some of it's a little bit of an an art, to be honest.
Marci Sogan:There's a science
Mike Coffey:to it, but some of
Marci Sogan:it's an art that you have to learn as you go. So are they gonna get the respect of the team if they haven't done that themselves? So there's a couple of ways to look at it. You know, do you promote from within? Do you have your own leadership programs?
Marci Sogan:So I've seen a lot of that. I've seen companies where if anybody's expressing interest in a leadership position internally, go ahead and start developing your own leaders and kind of do some succession planning for more than just 1 or 2 key positions. You might have to do it for quite a few positions. Or you, you know, you hire externally and then you train them on that trade. So there's a couple schools of thought there.
Marci Sogan:I think most like to promote from within when we can.
Mike Coffey:And one of the the big oil and gas companies, even if they're hiring engineers or anything like that, they make those new employees that are at all connected to the resource development side of their business spend a certain amount of time in the field as part of their orientation. So they're actually out there, you know, either digging holes or working in the mud or whatever, you know, whatever whatever their whatever area they're gonna be supporting. And so they've got their, you know, so that as they're developing their part, you know, these leaders, their future leaders, they've actually been on the ground doing that. And so yeah. So maybe, you know, maybe you do hire this, you know, this person who's got this leadership ability and all of that, but you put them you know, you flip the coin and make them go back to to to doing the the actual labor to get a feel for what that's what that life is really like.
Marci Sogan:Yeah. I think that's important all the way around for variety of support positions. If you're supporting that industry, it's important to know what they go through and especially for HR, you know, what their day in day out life is like, be out on there in the floor and talk with them and and know what they're going through to be able to support them and help run the business.
Mike Coffey:And at home, if you're listening and you're you're playing the good morning HR, drinking game, we did just say that just because somebody is good at their main role doesn't mean they're gonna automatically be a good natural ability to do it if you don't train them. So I mean that's gonna be a check mark on that one on your bingo card because that's, you know, that comes up in just about every other episode. It's one of the the horses that I beat. So yeah. So you're totally right there.
Mike Coffey:What other kind of labor challenges are you seeing as far as, you know, dealing with the, you know, this this you know, especially the younger gen you know, we all we hear is how, you know, the the Gen z. It used to be the millennials, then it was my generation. You know, Gen x, they used to complain about us. But is there anything unique about the the younger workforce that's moving into the manufacturing world?
Marci Sogan:Well, I think more and more and it doesn't I mean, a lot of it is younger, but some of it is just you know, we went through COVID and people had remote work options and and a lot more flexibility and maybe they were an accounting for, you know, a different type of company and they could absolutely do their job remote, or they were a project manager, but it but they could do their job remote. There's not a lot in manufacturing and production and supply chain that can be done remote, to be honest. So even hiring support positions, sometimes you do need to be there in person at least some of the time, but But it's very common for that expectation for those support positions that it's going to be remote. And sometimes it's hard to find folks that, you know, want to come into the office and then there's kind of a little, again, a couple schools of thought on that. Do we, is that okay?
Marci Sogan:Do we let our support positions work remote? Is it not fair because our folks in operations and on the floor, you know, your foreman can't be remote, your line lead can't be remote. So is it fair that an IT person gets to be remote? Well, it depends. What kind of IT work are they doing?
Marci Sogan:Are they work are they supporting those robots and those machines on the floor? They might not be able to, and sometimes it's hard to find some IT folks that wanna come into the office. Some crave it and they want it, they're thrilled to have it, and others are like, god, I haven't been in the office in years, now I'm not going in.
Mike Coffey:Right. Well, I mean, in accounting and all kinds of positions that are remote, you know, you know, there are plenty of HR folks who are spending a good bit of their time working remote now. But Yeah. And that's the you know, the question is, are we do we have Is this inflexibility about remote work, is it gonna cost us with in getting the best talent we have available for these, you know, more office based positions. And, you know, is is this there's a disparity maybe between who can work remote and who can't, but is it an you know, is it really unfair or is this just part of the job?
Mike Coffey:And so Right. You know, how how did you know, how have y'all navigated those kind of conversations in in your world?
Marci Sogan:I think each company really has to look at their values and what's important to them and how they operate. And because like you said, you can lose out on some labor and some talent but look at is it something that makes sense and aligns with our values and we can offer, and if not, what else can we offer? Is there something else if it's not remote? Because I think the benefit of remote is a little bit of flexibility. Not having to pay for gas to commute is probably a big one too.
Marci Sogan:Is there something, you know, a company can do to compensate for that if they if they don't wanna offer remote to the positions that maybe they could, they just don't feel like that aligns with their values for those support position to work remote. So do you offer? I've seen all kinds of stuff. Some companies offer, you know, extra leave where, some of it's even like a little bit of a sabbatical where they'll pay for people to have time off after a few years, you know, or where they've tried to work in some part time schedules or things like that. And it's it's not easy when you're dealing with production and supply chain and things that have to go out and you're monitoring where you're at every hour of the day to have people just be able to have flexible schedules and come and go because it doesn't really work that way.
Marci Sogan:The truck's there waiting in person to be loaded, and if nobody's there to load it, somebody's not getting something. So
Mike Coffey:it's Yeah. Or if you're on an assembly line, I mean, you know, part a has to be put together with part b by a person on certain schedule.
Marci Sogan:Yeah. Yeah. So when when these folks are out, they can't just make up their work later that night, you know, when you know, after their doctor's appointment or the next day when they come back from vacation, they can't just make it up. Somebody had to do it while they were out. And operations production either had to adjust a schedule or move some people around or pay some people some overtime.
Marci Sogan:But if that is something that companies can look at to say how can we offer a little bit of flexibility here? Do we offer some personal time or some leaves or can we have kind of this mid flex shift or do we plan for, you know, pauses for production certain times of the day? Do we do we purposely plan for more people to be out? Do we I've seen, what's pretty common is some more loose, I guess you would say, attendance policies, kind of more broad where people have a little bit of extra leeway on taking some days off, whether it's to go do some events with the family or just volunteering or helping a neighbor move or whatever it is, they have a little bit more flexibility on attendance, but that has to be planned for way ahead of time and staffed for way ahead of time.
Mike Coffey:And let's take a quick break. Good morning, HR is brought to you by imperative, bulletproof background checks with fast and friendly service. For 27 years, imperative has helped risk averse clients make well informed decisions about the people they involve in their business. Whether that means very thorough pre employment background checks, due diligence for family offices or private equity firms, or any other kind of business due diligence, if there are people involved there's risk involved. We help businesses mitigate that risk.
Mike Coffey:You can learn more at imperativeinfo.com. If you're an HRCI or SHRM certified professional, this episode of Good Morning HR has been preapproved for 1 half hour of recertification credit. To obtain the recertification information, visit goodmorninghr.com and click on research credits. Then select episode 140 and enter the keyword trades. That's t r a d e s.
Mike Coffey:And if you're looking for even more recertification credit, check out the webinars page at imperativeinfo.com. And now back to my conversation with Marcy Sogen. So much of the these jobs now, you know, like we said are so key to, you know, the technology and, you know, and it's like you say, it's, you know, like welding is the balance between that straight skill on, you know, how to do it in the art of of really making, you know, you know, making a clean seam. And there's, you know, there's certificate programs, and we're seeing a lot of, you know beginning to see the shift and I've pushed you know for a long time that that that 20 year old college degree and a bachelor of science and computer technology doesn't tell you anything about that person's competence today with a modern piece of of equipment and I want to see what they can do what their experience is and what they you know can demonstrate and cert certificates, you know to show that you know people are up to date and are you seeing that same kind of are people going and getting their own certificates are those more accessible than they used to be because because they used to be even if you went to a trade school, you're still committing to 2 years of of a trade school and a lot of student debt.
Mike Coffey:What is that if, you know, if if I'm an 18 year old kid who's looking into the work force in a in a trade or a 35 year old who just just can't sit behind a computer monitor another day, and I need to go do something with my hands and be, you know, in a different environment. Where would I go to get those skills?
Marci Sogan:I see so there are the traditional trade schools, but, honestly, what I see is employers doing it. So I see it through the employers. They might have to start out entry level, but the employers will work with like construction education foundation and they will train and certify their own employees and the employer's paying for it typically. So that's what I'm seeing honestly, is a lot through the employers. And I do see it promoted a bit more in high schools now.
Marci Sogan:Like they're just making sure that everybody knows this is out there and it's available, and and I do feel like they are promoting these skills in high school a little bit more than they used to.
Mike Coffey:And to the extent that that, you know, that they are promoting the the career paths, what we've seen with some of the local school districts just in my in my different environments is that often they they can promote the trade, but they don't internally even have the technology to match what the student would actually be working on if they left when they leave and they go to into the workforce. They they don't have you know, the the school can't afford that, you know, that $2,000,000 machine that the person will be working on or whatever. And and don't you know, so they can't get a lot of that, and so it's gonna have to be an employer provider
Marci Sogan:Yeah. Yeah.
Mike Coffey:That that kind of support.
Marci Sogan:Yeah. A lot of times it is. And the employer will either bring a third party in to do it or they will develop their own training program and their own certification and their own that's what we do, and it works pretty well.
Mike Coffey:So in in your environments, what are some examples of of some of those those kind of trades that those, you know, skilled positions that y'all are developing in house? And what is maybe what is that is there a career path for those kind of jobs, or you get into that job and you're just stuck, or what is available? What does that look like?
Marci Sogan:There yes. There is a career path. And so some folks will start out, like on an assembly line type thing, just kind of learning the environment, learning the industry and expressing an interest and I know we will, and I'm sure a lot of companies do this as well too, they ask, they suggest, they really promote the opportunities that are available because they need people. And then so like welding or press brake operator, you know, they can work their way up, and then it's not just, you know, it's press break operator 1 or press break operator 2 and level 3, kinda like apprentice kind of working your way up like that. It's kind of similar to that.
Marci Sogan:And you know, same thing welding and you might start with metal or you might start on a robot. Some of the robots honestly are easier to work, then doing it by hand yourself, that really is something that, you know, you have to practice that and not everybody has that talent. Or, and then they'll move to different like aluminum. Aluminum is a little bit harder to weld and really does require a unique skill set that that really has to be learned and just practiced over time. And so, you know, we allow for those to develop and go through a career path and, you know, move up and then, of course, you know, like I said, if anybody's interested in leadership, we'd love to hear that too.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And the the more skills that you've got people cross trained on Yes. You know, I'm sure your environment just you know, you're dependent on what what your, you know, your sales team is is able to bring in the door. And so at one at one point, you may be they may be, you know, doing this kind of product, and then maybe in 6 months, they'll be significant differently you know, significantly different product depending on what a specific client's looking for. So having having, you know, as many, different, you know, people who are cross trained and can, you know, be really responsive is is probably really valuable.
Marci Sogan:Absolutely. And that's very common in all industries, and that's how an operation team and a production team can be a little bit more flexible if they have a group of folks that are cross trained in a variety of different machines and skills and processes. They're able to be more flexible.
Mike Coffey:And, you know, I think there's even in the traditional white collar or professional type, you know, whatever you wanna call that. I hate to say professional because, again, these folks with these who've developed these really, you know, unique skill sets are as professional as somebody wearing, you know, happens to wear a jacket and shirt to work every day. And so but, you know in in the traditional admin clerical and that kind of that side of the business. Mhmm. There's probably and well I know when I was coming up in HR there was still that hesitancy.
Mike Coffey:People didn't want to go do accounting at this tray at this manufacturing company because that same delight, it had a connotation to it. It had you know, you know, you're not at this, you know, posh white collar firm. But there's a lot of roles, you know, we talked about accounting all those, but, you know, design jobs, logistics planning, robotics engineers, all these other roles now that are part of a manufacturing environment that you know they may sit behind a computer all day. And so are you finding those, you know, for lack of a better term, white collar positions easier to fill than the trades when you're or or do you think there's still you know, a connotation to the manufacturing side of the of industry?
Marci Sogan:I think it's broad enough that those kind of support roles, that's what I call them, support roles, whether it's engineering or IT or whatever it is, they're they're probably not working on the floor. They couldn't and we wouldn't want them welding anything ever, But they support that group and they support that business that does that process. I personally, I think the market has softened a little bit. It's not I think it's the market. I don't think it's necessarily they don't wanna work for that type of industry.
Marci Sogan:I mean, I think it's exciting to go out on the floor and see what's happening and, you know, what they'll let me wherever I'm allowed. So I think it's fascinating, and I think most do. I think most are kind of you're kind of proud of it. Honestly, you go out there and you go, we built that. Are you kidding me?
Marci Sogan:It started out as this and ended up like that. Oh my gosh. It's really it's impressive. Or you're, you know, you're driving through Fort Worth and maybe you're an accountant, but you work for one of those, you know, construction firms or whatever and you'd be like, hey, my company made that building right there. You know, it's kind of I think it's like I think it's great.
Marci Sogan:So I don't I don't personally, I haven't seen that be much of a challenge.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. Or the in Fort Worth in the f 35 flies over or something like that, and, you know, you're saying, okay. Yeah. We we we you know, that's Uh-huh. I had something to do with that, you know, so yeah.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. And speaking of somebody who's got an engineering son at Lockheed, so yeah, it's a and he's he's the 3rd generation of our family at Lockheed. So, yeah, it's a there's a long history there and, so Yeah. Well, I appreciate you know all your your time, but is any last thoughts about, what HR professionals ought to be thinking about, you know, any tips for somebody, an HR professional in the in the paint manufacturing world?
Marci Sogan:I would say, you know, sometimes you don't think of, that industry as being the most tech savvy, but then you look at, like I said, all the robots and machinery and equipment and computer programs and systems and things that are being used, it's it's pretty high-tech. So just really embracing that and because HR tends to be more connected with the employees in person, I feel like our cultures tend to be a little bit more connected. Because a lot of times if you're working out on a production floor or a construction site or even out in the field, if you're going to customers' homes or whatever it is, you might not necessarily have a company email. And if you do, you're not sitting in front of a computer all day. So you may or may not see it.
Marci Sogan:So HR tends to be more in person connected, I feel like. We're not sending out, We do send out emails, and we still have newsletters, and we still have our HRIS systems and the mobile apps and everything, but embrace that and take advantage of that in person connection that we have with employees because a lot of other industries and companies don't have that. And I feel like that's a strength that we have that we can leverage and, you know, spend some time training some folks on how to use that new app. You know, spend some time talking with them because other industries don't have that opportunity, and I feel like it's an opportunity that we have. So, you know, take advantage of it and and use it.
Mike Coffey:Yeah. I've always said HR should spend a lot more time working alongside the frontline and understanding what's going on, whether it's manufacturing or you're a sales organization or you're retail or whatever you do. HR to really HR well needs to understand what what's really going on with those those frontline employees who are really touching the customer most directly.
Marci Sogan:Yep. Yeah. You have to. And most of us are based at those locations and can get out there and and experience that and get to know them, and it's a it's a nice opportunity rather than sitting in, you know, a a corporate office somewhere and, you know, it's retail stores out across the US and you don't ever actually you don't work in any of them. So it's nice that we can kinda have that connected in person connection with the employees.
Mike Coffey:Well, that's all the time we have today. Thanks for joining me today, Marcy. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Mike Coffey:And thank you for listening. You can comment on this episode or search our previous episodes at goodmorninghr.com or on Facebook, Instagram, or YouTube. And don't forget to follow us wherever you get your podcast. Rob Upchurch is our technical producer, and you can reach him at robmakespods.com. And thank you to Imperatives marketing coordinator, Mary Anne Hernandez, who keeps the trains running on time.
Mike Coffey:And I'm Mike Coffey. As always, don't hesitate to reach out if I can be of service to you personally or professionally. I'll see you next week and until then, be well, do good, and keep your chin up.