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Join Derek Hudson as he explores Essential Dynamics, a framework for approaching the challenges facing people and organizations. Consider your Quest!
Welcome to Essential Dynamics. We're back for season five. I'm your host, Derek Hudson. I've been developing Essential Dynamics as a way to help us think about systems and about the, the things we try and do as, human beings. And I am very excited today to have, doctor Anne Hall on the podcast.
Derek:Anne, thank you so much for joining me.
Ann:Oh, I'm I'm very pleased to be here. I love talking about our subject.
Derek:Okay. So, I'm just gonna introduce our subject and our speaker very quickly. Anne Hall is an Emeritus Professor of the University of Alberta, and she's, among other things, has studied, psychos the sociology of sports, particularly women's sports. And it is so fantastic that you took upon yourself, the job a number of years ago to write about the Edmonton Grads. And so, I found Anne through her book, The Grads Are Playing Tonight.
Derek:The Edmonton Grads were a women's basketball team that was very dominant, and we're we're gonna start with Anne explaining just how absolutely amazing they were. And then we're gonna go from that to, how we can learn about systems from the system that, the grads created over many years. So, Anne, welcome. You are excited.
Ann:Yes. Thanks, Derek. We need to go back all the way to 1912, when Commercial High School, was set up, in the, what was then the John a McDougall, Public School. It existed in the Top Floor of that, and that the public school still exists today on, North Of Hundred And Ninth Avenue, on a Hundred And Seventh Street. And Percy Page was a young teacher from Ontario and in 1912, he arrived in Edmonton to establish, business and secretarial education in the Edmonton Public School System and this was at commercial.
Ann:Now, he also taught PE or physical education, and he introduced basketball to the school, and of course, since it was a commercial school, most of the, students, there were a few men, but most of the students were women. And after, and they enjoyed playing basketball, it was a relatively new sport for women at the time, and, after some of the original players graduated, they wanted to continue playing in the new City League. And so this is, in 1915, the Edmonton Commercial Graduates Basketball Club was formed. Now the team, right from the beginning, did, very well. They, won city championships.
Ann:They won provincial championships. And, they then in 1922, they traveled for the first time outside the province, and they traveled to London, Ontario, and they beat the London Shamrocks, which was the very first Dominion Championships. Now, you know, it wasn't really across the whole country, but it was called the Dominion Championships.
Derek:Adkin, let me just stop here for a couple things. So so the Dominion championships, the the the Dominion was the word that was used way more frequently back then.
Ann:Yes. It was. Yeah. Wasn't the previous. Yeah.
Ann:Uh-huh. It's called Dominion.
Derek:All of Canada. And you know, and here we are in, early twenty twenty five. We have different different, ways of thinking about Canada. Maybe we should bring Dominion back again.
Ann:Yeah. It might be a good idea.
Derek:And and I just wanna back up on a couple other things. So when was basketball invented?
Ann:It it was invented, let me see. 08/08 it was the latter part of the nineteenth century. So 1892, around there, I have to look that up myself. Yeah.
Derek:Yeah. And I I thought I
Ann:had Smith. Yeah. We've been big game. Yeah.
Derek:James Naismith, who's Canadian.
Ann:Yes. From Herbar.
Derek:And, and he was in, Springfield, Massachusetts. Is that right?
Ann:Yes. Springfield College. And he he wanted to invent a game that was an indoor game. He he was teaching men and boys, of course. And he wanted to invent a game that would be played indoors, that was challenging, and so on.
Ann:And the, you know, the story is, of course, that the first basket was really a peach basket of some kind that he hooked up on a pole, and, they had these balls that were sort of basketballs. And, no. The basketball was invented by a Canadian. Yep.
Derek:And and it so it wasn't that old in September 1915 when the grad started
Ann:Absolutely not. It was a relatively new game. And, but it was a game that was attractive to women and to girls. Of course, at that time, it wasn't a very, it was quite a stationary game. I mean, I'm I'm of the generation.
Ann:I played for Queens way back in the early sixties, and we were still playing women's rules. And women's rules at that time were that you could only go two thirds of the court. I played guard so that I didn't shoot, and I could only go two thirds of the court. And then, we we we eventually got in a roving player rule where and I was also could shoot, so I was a roving player. So I was the only player on the team that could go back and forth.
Derek:And so So so that's the way you played. I thought that ended in, like, the the thirties or forties
Ann:or something like that. No. I played from I played for Queens from 1960 to '64, and we were still playing women's roles.
Derek:My goodness. So what do you think of the NCAA women's tournament now?
Ann:I think it's fantastic. I mean, you know, I've you know, my lifetime is such that, I've watched this whole game emerge into something that was, you know, you wouldn't have recognized the kind of basketball that we played.
Derek:I I did, I did watch some video, and I didn't find very much of the grads. And, they were playing the men's game, I think, in the video.
Ann:Yes. They did. He women's rules were sort of in, like, in vogue. I mean, you must remember this very early. And Percy Page decided very early on that they would always play what were then called men's rules.
Ann:But but, you know, they were still a kind of a it it it looked fast moving, but compared to today's basketball, it wasn't because, there was a fair amount of stop and start, stop and start.
Derek:So I I just wanted to set that context. So basketball was new. Edmonton was new.
Ann:Yes. Edmonton at that time probably had, about you know, had about a population of about 14,000. You know, seventeen fourteen, 17 thousand. Wasn't very wasn't very big. No?
Derek:It wasn't very big. And, and this commercial high school was teaching primarily women typing, stenography, accounting, stuff like that?
Ann:That's correct. These were they were they were educating, young women. There were some men in the program too, but they were educating them to go into the businesses in Edmonton and be secretaries, clerks, whatever. And that was the that was the role of the program. It was a two year program, and, they they they would go right in immediately into the workforce.
Derek:So so they, they left playing high school ball, and then they carried on into the city league after.
Ann:Well, there there was a there was a city league, but most importantly, where the American teams came up. You see, you have to remember that we had also the, Edmonton Stock Pavilion, which was, I think, built in 1913. And the Edmonton Stock Pavilion, which became known as the Edmonton Arena, where it it it was placed and was this huge, ugly building that literally was a Stock Pavilion. It's where the, the Edmonton, Expo Center is now.
Derek:Right.
Ann:Right. And my view is that if we had not had that building, which got converted into a hockey arena in the wintertime, but it also was what they did was to put a wooden floor down there. And so this mean that they had a venue to attract American teams to come up and play in Edmonton. And to me, this is this is how the team actually made its name in those early days because, they played for the Underwood Trophy. And from 1923, '30 different American teams came to in Edmonton to challenge the grads, and some more than once.
Ann:And these were what were called industrial teams in The United States. So they were part of factories, the Cleveland favorite, Nitsch, for example, the Chicago Brownies, the Chicago Trunks, you know. And, these were the teams that came up and played, and I think were what made the team a better team and also gave it a a a huge reputation in North America.
Derek:So they went, I think I interrupted you earlier. They went to London and won the first Dominion championship.
Ann:Yes. They did way back in, '22. Yeah.
Derek:Mhmm. And that put them on the map for traveling American teams.
Ann:Well, I you know, basketball in Canada for women's basketball really, you know, hadn't grown very much.
Derek:Right.
Ann:And I think that Paige saw the opportunity to bring these American teams up who have been playing a little bit longer. They were better more organized. And, you know, it's funny, they always thought that they could beat the Grads, which they couldn't. So they would travel up, and they would sometimes, put a few ringers in, players that they thought would be helpful because they picked them up along the way, and it never worked.
Derek:Never worked.
Ann:Because they got beaten constantly.
Derek:So so the so the grads would enter people would come, and I I assume they traveled by train?
Ann:Mostly by train. Yes. Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Derek:And they would come up, and then they would get beaten in the Edmonton Stock Pavilion,
Ann:sometimes badly. Mostly, they did. Yes. Uh-huh. And and and they were huge, exciting games.
Ann:They were, as I said, the Stock Pavilion would have about 4,000, six thousand spectators in it. And, when you compare it, as I said before, to the size of Edmonton, that's huge. You know, that's almost, you know, a third of the population of Edmonton coming to watch the games.
Derek:Coming to watch the games. Yeah. So that was huge. And we have to remember that there was no television back then.
Ann:No television and no radio.
Derek:No radio even. No. So they were
Ann:The games originally were not live, were not on radio at all. No. Right.
Derek:So they were live, and that was where the action was.
Ann:That's exactly right. Yep. Yep.
Derek:And, and as I understand it, the hockey team that played at the time was the Edmonton Eskimos.
Ann:Yes. Yeah.
Derek:So that's confusing to us young people.
Ann:Yeah.
Derek:Okay. So, tell me a little bit more about, how dominant the the grads were and what what, what that looked like over the years.
Ann:Well, you know, this team was very dominant, and, Paige had to seek elsewhere, really, for, competition. And, basketball was growing in Europe and in England, and, he wanted to take part in that. So it's often thought that the grads competed in the Olympics. And this is not true, but there is a story behind that, in that, the Olympics, began, and basketball was not, as I said, part of it. So women's basketball.
Ann:But Percy Page decided that he would take the team over to Europe at the same time as the Olympics. And he and I believe that what he was trying to do was to lobby the Olympic officials to bring women's basketball into the, Olympics. But they first traveled in nineteen twenty twenty four. And when the Paris Olympics were on in in in Paris. And they played local teams around in Europe, but around in France.
Ann:And, of course, they had been playing so much longer than these European teams. They were actually even though they were quite small in size compared to today's teams, they, demolished these teams. And if you look at the scores, they're, for example, in the Paris twenty four two, there are 64 to sixteen, sixty five to 12. You know, they they just they were so much better than these European teams. But it gave Paige an opportunity to lobby the officials, the Olympic officials, to bring women's basketball into the Olympics.
Ann:Of course, this didn't happen until 1976. And, so they went to the twenty four Olympics. They went to the twenty eight Olympics, and again played local teams. They went to the thirty two Olympics in Los Angeles. And as far as I can tell, they didn't play any games at all.
Ann:They were just there, watching the games. And then in '36 at the Olympics in Berlin, they were actually, part of the Canadian team in the sense that they were given the Canadian blazers to wear, and they were invited to, participate in the opening ceremonies, the march in of the athletes. But that didn't happen because they were in London, England, actually playing a team there, and they didn't get there in time. So, many people say that and I've seen it. And, for example, the Savelle Savelle Centre, the display shows them as being at the Olympics, and they never competed at the Olympics because there was no women's basketball for them to compete in.
Ann:But my feeling was that, Paige would would saw this as an opportunity always when the Olympics came around for him to lobby for women's basketball, to be part of the Olympics, which he didn't see in his lifetime, actually.
Derek:Didn't see in his lifetime. So, I'm I'm still trying to get my head around dressing in a Canadian blazer, being invited to March, as athletes, as a, you know, functioning sports team for an event that wasn't gonna happen.
Ann:Right. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Derek:So was that because of their the respect that the Canadian sporting establishment had for the grads or what
Ann:what was the problem? And I think it was that by the time, you know, this is the third time, Page had taken his team to Europe. He knew the he knew some of the Olympic officials. He knew the Canadian, athletic officials. I mean, he was extremely well respected, in that world.
Ann:And, so I think I think and I think everyone felt badly, really, that there wasn't women's sport women's basketball in the Olympics. And so this was a kind of way to not placate them, but also just to give them the credit that they really deserved because they were there was no question. They were the top basketball team virtually in the world.
Derek:So and did they were they undefeated in Europe for those various
Ann:distances? Absolutely. See, again, if you look at the scores, the thirties the the sorry. You know, when they have played the London pioneers, for example, and they beat them a hundred to two. I mean I mean, they were no one could touch them.
Ann:I don't think in all the time that they were in all the in Europe and all those years, they never lost a game.
Derek:So so, that hundred to two score, I I wanna, pick up something that I read in the book. And I think in our next episode, we'll talk a little bit about more about the coaching philosophy and things like that. But, my understanding was that coach Paige always wanted his team doing their best.
Ann:Oh. Without exception. Yes. Yes.
Derek:And and they were there to show the world how basketball was played. And so, if if they could score a hundred points, they would score a hundred points, they weren't gonna let up once they had a lead.
Ann:Absolutely not. No. No. No. It didn't that didn't matter.
Ann:I mean, the scores were always lopsided and, you know, coach, he was always determined that they whenever they went on the court, they they played the very best they could and they showed whoever was in the audience at the time how basketball could be played.
Derek:So, Anne, do you have more notes that you need to to complete the story arc here? Because I've I've tons of questions, but I don't want I don't want to, mix mix this up here.
Ann:Yeah. I think, I think the important thing is that the the the Edmonton became, basically, because of these trips and because of their reputation and because of their success, at this time, Edmonton became the "Edmonton of the Grads". I mean, you know, over my lifetime, I traveled a lot and traveled to Europe. And when I sometimes when I go and and always within a, you know, sporting context usually or a conference or whatever, people today in Europe still have heard of the grads. They they know about them and, because the history is there.
Ann:And when the grads returned, always from any of these trips, the welcome that they got at the train station I mean, we're looking at a picture now. It's just unbelievable sea of picture of people who who welcome them home from these trips always. And so and the the individual grads, when I wrote the book, for example, what I wanted to do was to try to bring to life the lives of the 38 players who were on the on the teams on the team over the years from, night let's say from, let's say from 1915 through to '19, in 4042, I think. And so everyone realized who these women were, and they were, like, really sports stars within the city because people knew them and they were usually because they had the secretarial training and so on, businesses love to employ them. And when they were employed, the businesses were always very careful to make sure that they gave them the time needed to travel for, the the exhibition games or travel to The US because the team would barnstorm down almost every summer.
Ann:The team would go down into The United States barnstorming and playing local teams in The States. So the business community in Edmonton welcomed them and supported them. The Rotarians, for example, were enormous supporters of the grads. And and it's so interesting because we really don't have that kind of connection today. I don't think there's a team or individual members of the team where we really have that sort of community and connection.
Derek:Oh, there's yeah. There's so much to that. So so one question I have is that the the players okay. So they're amateurs, so they had jobs, and Yes. Yes.
Derek:And and they played for for fun. They played why did they play?
Ann:Yeah. Mhmm. Mhmm.
Derek:They they play. They wanted to be on that team. I I suppose the other thing, and I did read in your book, is that they they it gave them an opportunity to travel.
Ann:Absolutely. And, I mean, you know, you're you're talking primarily working class women, who would not have had any of these kinds of opportunities. And when they traveled in Europe, missus Paige, always went with them. And she herself was a very cultured woman. She spoke fluent French.
Ann:She the Page has always made certain that when they were traveling in Europe, they had cultural activities, they learned about the countries, they, you know, they they it was a very enriching experience for all these women.
Derek:That's fantastic. So let's go back because yeah. The other question I wanted to ask was, so Edmonton was, on the map in Europe because of the grads. Yes. And, certainly in basketball places, like I know, they played a lot of teams from Chicago and the Midwest, that they would refer to Edmonton.
Derek:You said Edmonton of the grads.
Ann:Yes. It was clearly Edmonton of the grads.
Derek:A third of the city would show out to the big games. Just come come to the big games.
Ann:In the early days. Yes. Yeah. Yes. It began to slip a little bit.
Ann:Radio comes in. The grads games are are broadcast on radio, so you begin to see fewer people coming out to the actual games at the arena. But the support for them was no different. I mean, you know, people would be excited that the game would be on radio, and they would listen to it, and they would cheer on and so on at home. But but, radio did have an impact on those who went to the, arena.
Ann:Sure.
Derek:And I'm trying to put myself in that era. So my grandparents would have been, children when the grads started and had children, like, when the grads, wound up in the forties. And, you know, my my parents would have been
Ann:Nineteen forty, they finished, yeah.
Derek:My parents would have been in, you know, early elementary school then. So so it's my grandparents' era, I'm trying to get my head around, and I don't I don't have that. But was it a a big deal? Was that a non issue? Or what what was, tell me about the fact that the grads were a women's team.
Derek:Was that a thing, or was that just they were just a basketball
Ann:team? No. I don't you know, that's a very interesting question because, they it it didn't really matter. I mean, I think if it had been a men's team, it would have been, I mean, the same thing. The fact that they I think I think the fact that they were a women's team, of course, was was a little bit unique.
Ann:But at the same time, it was, the fact that these women were also so much involved within the community itself because people knew them. They could see them on you know, they could maybe encounter them when they went to a store. They, they knew who they were. And, Page, of course, made absolutely certain that their behavior at all times was up to standards, that, they, you know, he didn't counter anything that was unusual or not appropriate. So they were upstanding citizens, if you like.
Derek:In every way. Yeah.
Ann:In every way. Yes. Yeah.
Derek:That's fantastic. So I was, for a number of years, worked at, Edmonton's Economic Development Agency. And we, and the successor organization, Explore Edmonton, still promotes Edmonton in any way it can to the world. And, I just I just wanna sort of highlight the impact that the grads would have had for so long on, getting people to travel to the community and understand what was going on here? And also just to highlight the the sense of community spirit and accomplishment that they must have, shared with the community for all those years.
Ann:Yes. I think the latter is probably the most important lesson you can learn from the grads in this particular time period.
Derek:Can you say more about that?
Ann:It make it make I you know, it's I had the opportunity. When I when I decided to write the book, most of the grads had died. And, and I did I did interview four of them altogether. And one was in Edmonton, and they were spread across the country, so I had to travel a little bit. And speaking to them, and all of them had been in the latter part because they were still alive, they they were they had experienced something that I think hardly anyone involved in women's athletics experiences because they were so much a part of being in a community that supported them and knew them and and, was always interested in who they were.
Ann:One of the ones I lived I I, interviewed, lived, and I was at her hundredth birthday party. So cool. And she was still known as a grad. She was still recognized as a grad, and she was a hundred years over a hundred years old. So and I think a part of it had to do with Paige's, Percy Page's idea about how people should behave.
Ann:And whether there were men or women, it didn't really matter because he was a very honorable man. He always made sure that the that the players under him behaved in a way that he thought was appropriate. He was stern in some ways. Some people when I started to work on the book, some people say, oh, you're gonna find mister Page as a kind of a a dictator. That was not true at all.
Ann:He was an exemplar. And he, he demanded of the grads that they certainly when they were in public, that they behave properly, they dress properly. He when they were in Europe, of course, they were representatives of the country, and he and he made sure that there was there was never any any there was never any controversy around the grass that I could find.
Derek:Well, that's awesome. So we're, we're up on time for, round one here. And, I told you it would go fast. And so I wanna I wanna stop it here with that, concept of the grads being examples and the coach being exemplar in the community and the sense of community. We're gonna pick it up next time and talk about what we can learn from the grad experience.
Derek:And so, for podcast listeners, wait wait a couple weeks and you'll get the rest of the story and it'll it'll be awesome. But for now, Anne, thank you very much for, for being with us and Brynn Griffiths, thanks for, making it sound so good. Until next time, consider your quest.