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Interesting people, insightful points of view and incredible stories on what’s popping and not popping in marketing, tech, and culture you can use to win immediately. Brands, Beats and Bytes boldly stands at the intersection of brand, tech and culture. DC and Larry are fascinated with stories and people behind some of the best marketing in the business. No matter how dope your product, if your marketing sucks your company may suck too. #dontsuck
DC: [00:00:00] Brand Nerds, stop. You've never heard me say that to open this podcast. Not one time, but I'm saying stop doing whatever you're doing right now and listen to our next guests. Not for me. Do it for you.
Some of you may be wondering, okay, wow. Uh, these, these, these dudes have, uh, listeners in a hundred countries. Thank you. Thank you very much for that. They've done approaching 200 podcasts. This yahoo I'm listening to right now opens the podcast the same way and has done it that way for years. Why would he now choose to open a podcast of Brands, Beats and Bytes with the word stop?[00:01:00]
Good question, Brand Nerds. That's a very good question. I don't know if any of you all listening have been in a situation where you met someone you did not know. You never met this person before, yet they had a profound impact on your career. It's weird. Brand Nerds, it's weird. That's our next guess, and I am going to tell you why that is the case.
As I was coming up as a young pup in the brand management game, I used to read something. Larry will go into further detail here in a moment. And there were three things that I took away from it regularly, and I'm gonna put them, you know, I like threes brand nerds in threes, D, C, P. The D, it helped [00:02:00] me make better decisions that was important to me.
Smarter decisions. C, the information was C-suite level insights. P, prescient. When I would read this stuff, I actually wondered, does this dude have a crystal ball? Like how, how is it possible to not only reveal information and insights that are relevant today? But that point forward in some cases, years to what might be germane then to help me make better decisions because this prescient that this dude has is seemingly like without fail. [00:03:00] Brand Nerds get ready for a treat.
We have an icon in the building. Larry, please do the honors and the justice of who we have been blessed with in the Brands Beats and Bytes sphere.
LT: D, what a great setup and Brand Nerds you will hear a lot more as you know in the intro. But we have Jack Myers in the house today. Welcome, Jack.
Jack Myers: Number one, I hope all your audience is not just disappointed.
Now that you've told them who, who is Actually, I, I was waiting. Who's the other guest here? Oh my God. What a, what? A DC Where have you been my whole career? I would've had you open for me every time I, first of all, I love your DCP decision, C-suite level insights and prescient, because I, I am gonna steal that and use that, uh, to describe, uh, my goal, my objective and, and what I hope I can share here [00:04:00] today.
That that, thank you. Thank you for that. That was greats yours, brother.
DC: But we just getting started. It's yours. Larry's got even more.
LT: We're just getting started. So Jack, DC did the great setup, but now we have to let our brand nerds in to really understand who we have in the virtual building today. Okay.
Brand nerds. We have had the great fortune of having many accomplished people on the podcast before, but no one more so than Jack. Jack is a master storyteller, Media ecologist and generational visionary whose work explores the evolving relationships between technology, culture, communications, and human consciousness.
Let's walk you through his amazing background for college, Jack attends the prestigious Syracuse University Newhouse School where he earns his undergrad degree in radio and television, and while in school works as a reporter for The Daily Orange and as the promotions director for WAER, the Syracuse University radio station.
After graduation, Jack [00:05:00] soon finds himself working at New York Radio Station WPLJ. It is hard to describe the popularity of WPLJ back in the 1970s, but Jack was right there on the team, eventually becoming sales manager for the station while still working at WPLJ. Jack goes back to school at NYU Steinhardt School of Culture Education and Development, where he earns his master's in Education for communication and media studies.
Armed with this new degree, he goes to work at CBS as Director of Marketing, where he manages a team of marketing professionals who work with new advertisers, helping them optimize their media strategies, creative executions, and new technology orientation to ultimately maximize their ROI, with the CBS ad buy.
After successfully doing this for seven years, this is what DC was alluding to, Brand Nerds, jack starts the Myers report. Since 1984 and through today, the Myers Report has become a trusted intelligence platform for leaders navigating [00:06:00] media, technology, and culture. It is truly a go-to place, a go-to platform for industry insiders to be on the front foot in helping readers anticipate transformation and leading with clarity, empathy, and purpose.
With this foundation, many major companies, including General Motors, Microsoft. Comcast, NBC Universal, Aegis, OTT, Campbell Soup, and Walt Disney and the Walt Disney Company just to name a few, seek out Jack for his help in shaping strategies and inspiring a new generation of purpose-driven leaders. All great stuff.
And Dee, if we ended there, that would be awesome, but Brand Nerds, there is a whole lot more.
DC: But wait, there's more.
LT: That's right. Exactly. How about writing books? Jack is an accomplished author, including two bestsellers, one being the Tower of Leadership, Harmonizing Technological Innovation and Human Creativity in the AI era.
The next one, the Future of Men: [00:07:00] Masculinity in the 21st Century. And he's also written, Hooked Up, A New Generation, Surprising Take On Sex, Politics and Saving the World. The first in-depth study of Gen Z. How about Ted Talks? Since Jack is always ahead of the curve, his renowned Ted Women Talk on the Future of Men has generated more than 1 million YouTube views.
How about Giving Back? Jack is founder and chairman of Media Village Education Foundation, the advertising and Media Industries Premier Knowledge Exchange platform. He's also on the board for great organizations, which include IRTS, the John Reback Foundation, TD Foundation, She Runs It and he's also founder for advancingdiversity.org.
How about education? You think all of this would keep him busy enough, but he, he's currently a senior lecturer on New Media Theory at the University of Arizona School of Information Science Sciences. And how about podcasts? Something DC and I are really looking forward to is the podcast [00:08:00] Jack is co-hosting with our great friend Tim Spengler, called Lead Human, which debuts any day now in January of 2026.
With all of this great stuff, Jack has earned many honors over the years, including the Excellence in Education Award from the Global Forum in Education and Learning, the George Foster Peabody Award Academy and Emmy Award nominations for documentary filmmaking, the Crystal Heart Award for the Heartland Film Festival, a top 10 most admired leader in tech by Pinnacle Tech Insights.
Jack and his wife Rhonda, live in Tucson in Santa Barbara, and enjoyed time with their five children and six grandchildren. We're really looking forward to this one, Brand Nerds. Welcome to Brands, Beats and Bytes, Jack Myers.
Jack Myers: I am frigging impressed with myself. Holy shit. That's what, what an amazing life I've had.
You know, you, I, I, I actually don't have no idea where you got most of that stuff, but geez, I, I, I don't [00:09:00] know how to live up to all that. Thank you. Thank you. Know it. It's. It's, it's really interesting to hear it all back, especially the early WPLJ, you know, at the, at the cusp of, of FM radio emerging out of, you know, am at CBS when cable was just emerging.
In fact, I, I left. CBSI thought I'd be there my whole career. I mean, all I ever wanted was to go to work at CBS and, um,
LT: The Tiffany Network Brand Nerds, that's what it was, was known as
Jack Myers: Network. I mean, that was the place to be and, and I thought it would be a career there. But, um, it, one of my jobs was to look at new technology and recommend, and I, and I was a big fan, big advocate, evangelist internally and externally for cable.
Wow. When, uh, cable was not, uh, well loved by the broadcast industry. Yeah. And my boss at the time, uh, suggested that if I love cable, [00:10:00] so effing much, maybe I should go to work for effing cable, which, which I did, you know, and, and then launched The Myers Report shortly after that.
LT: That's awesome. I love that backdrop.
DC: Uh, Jack, what you received today is what we call your flowers. Yeah, we often don't get our flowers jack until we are in the ground. And then someone extol, several folks extol our virtues. It doesn't typically happen, uh, like this. Or if you're keynoting something and someone introduces you, they give like a 144 character introduction of you before you speak. On Brands, Beats and Bytes,
we wanna make sure that the peoples know who is in the building and we also want to make sure certain that the person knows [00:11:00] how highly we think of them. Yeah. Thank you.
Jack Myers: Especially, especially both of you have such extraordinary backgrounds yourselves and, and history and DC It's good to know that I, I had some relevance and meaning to you.
Earlier in your career, but you did age me that way also, so
DC: That's true. That's true. Alright Jack, we are going to the next section. It's called Get Comfy Jack Myers. I love origin stories, so whenever I see something that I find that is great, exceptional, I am not curious about what I'm seeing, I'm curious about why I'm seeing what I'm seeing and what were the origins of what I'm seeing.
Love that. This is why Marvel movies or DC comic [00:12:00] movies, they all, these are the, these are the biggest movies in the world, by the way. They all have an origin story. All of them do. And uh, in our world also, some of the best marketing has origin stories like I was. A piece of content the other day, and it was from Mercedes-Benz, Jack and, uh, it showed that it was a, um, Santa Claus and Mama Claus there together.
And Santa Claus has taken Ill, he, he, he can't go out. So Mama Clause says, I will do it. I'm gonna do the sleigh tonight. And then they cut to Mama Claus is now outside. It is snowing and you see six or eight white Benzs cutting through, dashing, if you will, through the snow. She is in a red, um, uh, bins, very smart, sexy looking red [00:13:00] bins that is in the rear, uh, pretending to be the sleigh while the white Benzs is are pretending to be the reindeer.
And while she is doing this. A song comes on from the rapper and now multihyphenate talent Eve and the song is Who's That Girl? So they start playing this classic hip hop song of who's that girl as Mama Claus is about to go and deliver these gifts around the world. Jack,
Jack Myers: I love that story.
DC: It it Jack decades.
So do I, Jack, decades ago had someone said to me when I was a young pup on Sprite, repositioning that brand from, I like to Sprite in you to Obey Your Thirst and Obey Your Thirst as a strategic platform we thought was best manifested [00:14:00] through hip hop, hip hop. We were the first major brand in the world to really dive into the culture.
In fact, it started before I got there, credit where credit is due. Tom Burrell and the uh, and the marketers at Coca-Cola had Curtis Blow in a Sprite ad in 1984. Wow. If someone had said in 2025 there's going to be this commercial from Mercedes-Benz, one of the top brands in the world with Santa Claus and Mama Claus, with the background music being, who's that girl from Rapper Eve?
Her crew was called Rough Riders. Jack, I would've thought you were out of your fucking mind. Alright. But that's the origin story, so we know where that comes from now. Now I'm coming to you. I mentioned upfront at the opening, the reason why I read The Myers [00:15:00] Report is because of the DCPD decision. C, c-suite, uh, insights, and then p prescient.
I didn't know you had this connection to the N NYU Steinhardt School of Culture.
Jack Myers: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
DC: But I know this book that you've written, the Future of Man Masculinity in the 21st Century. So I, I do know that that was launched in 2016. I have really been into Professor Prof G you know who I'm talking about?
Jack, professor Prof, G at NYU now, who talks about he is considered the foremost person in talking about the state of young men. This is in 2025. He's considered that, and I got curious, where did that come from? What's the origin of his book, his thinking and platform about young [00:16:00] men and the origin story, Jack Myers is you. It's you. And as I begin to think about the future of men, this book that you wrote back in 2026, I like threes. Jack. I came away with three things that you focused on. One was education. What's happening with the education of young men relative to young women? Two career. How have careers changed for young men and young women?
And then finally, relationships. How has the, the difference in what has occurred over the decades impacted relationships as a result of the education difference and career difference? That all leads me to a question, Mr. Jack Myers. You are the OG [00:17:00] of this whole, what's happening with our young men in our culture, in our politics, in our society.
What moved you to identify that and what do you most want people to take away from that?
Jack Myers: It's really interesting that you, you, you focus on that first. Um, we'll come back to Professor G later. Okay. In the conversation maybe, uh, when, when we drill down into, you know, maybe some of the things that, um. Uh, that are, you know, kind of pet peeves right now, or issues for me right now.
So it's, but it's, it's a huge topic. So it, it really evolved be before I wrote the, the future of Men, I had written a book called, uh, the Relationship Age, reconnecting with Customers that in kind of identified the, [00:18:00] the, uh, the internet as a major technological shift and always looking, because I came out of FM radio and cable tv and, uh, I, I really always was fascinated by technological change.
And, you know, I, I got, and, uh, I, um. I, uh, in, in looking at technological change, it, it led me to also look at how are generations impacted by technology? How does it impact, uh, I know how I was impacted by television, how cultures were impacted by rock and roll. You talk about hip hop, you talk about rap.
Yeah, yeah. You know, I'm watching the, the, the Sean Combs, uh, documentary. Oh, yeah. And, you know, learning a lot about how, how that culture and, and the impact, so technology changes, impact music, uh, changes, uh, changes generations. So as I was looking at the generational shifts, I, I was really. [00:19:00] Recognizing that for my own career, uh, you know, educ, I felt, I saw this new generation coming into the advertising and media business.
Mm-hmm. And I realized there was no foundation for education, which you mentioned is one of your first, your first of the three, you know, education, careers, relationships. It's exactly what I was looking at. How do we educate this, this new generation that's coming into our business as it's growing, expanding exponentially.
Mm-hmm. And, and how do we positively impact on their careers? Mm-hmm. And I thought, well, let's, let's create relationships. So you hit on the three key things and, and in building out relationships, I realized, I looked at it and I said, wait a second. When I went into the agencies and I was walking around, I was realizing it's all women.
DC: Yeah. Right.
Jack Myers: I, I grew up in an industry. It was all men. And now, wait a second. This is all young women and, and what are we doing to educate them? What are we doing to help them build their careers and [00:20:00] relationships? So I started, 2011, I started an organization called Women in Media Mentoring Association Foundation, feder.
And, and I brought women together as, as dual mentoring that the more senior ones have as much to learn as the younger ones. So it was dual mentoring and it grew from bringing together 40 women, 20 and 2020 young early stage, and 20 senior to all of a sudden, a year later we had a thousand women at an event that we hosted at Horizon Media.
That Bill Koenigsberg and I brought together. Bill and I were the only men in the room. Wow. And, and, and what I also realized is that. Of there were like 200 men, you know, more senior people and about 800 younger women. And, and, and it was just outta hand. And as I realized that, and as that started to evolve and I said, you know, we, we really need to wonder what's going on with the [00:21:00] men.
Where,
DC: yeah.
Jack Myers: What's going on? And I, I just started researching it. So kind of 20 13, 20 14, uh, I, I started, I was research. I realized 60% of col not only are 60% of college graduates men, but 60% of high school graduates are men. Ah. And, and you know, the, the percentages even down into the, the se grade school level were increasingly, you know, young men weren't, weren't even, were dropping out early from all forms of school.
LT: Um, wait, Jack, hold on a second. Did you say 60% of graduates are men or women were women, I'm sorry,
Jack Myers: 60%. 60% women, and I'm sorry. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Yeah. So 60%, 60% of college students are female. 60% of high school students are female. Right. And then I started looking at the, the post grad,
LT: oh wait, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but stop there.
Think about that brand nerd for a second. Six [00:22:00] outta 10 college graduates are female, like six outta 10, uh, college, uh, folks who are getting college educations are female. That's a big difference. You know, the 60 40 difference. And so think of the manifestation to, and that's where you're seeing of how that plays itself out in the coming years.
So anyway, I just, I think it's that important to stop the, like, whoa, that's a big piece. That was, and that
Jack Myers: was compounded by the diversity was also far more people of color coming into the business. Who, and, and there was no institutional focus on it. So I started working on that. We, we created the, uh, media village at that point.
But more importantly to your, to your point, DC is I really started asking the question of what's going on with the men? And I started researching that. And that led to the book, the, the Future of Men Masculinity in the 21st Century. That was really focused on, we've got a problem, we've got a masculinity issue.
I wrote it in [00:23:00] 20 14, 20 15, published early February, 2016 when we thought that Hillary Clinton was gonna be our next president. Yeah. And, but I also saw the emergence of Donald Trump in that process, and I, and I saw what, what is the beginning of what Professor G has, has focused on today and, and the reality that.
No one was really paying attention to this emerging problem. So let's call attention to it and let's identify solutions. So my book of the Future Men, my TED Talk, offered really seven solutions. Here's what we can do. Number one, we need to focus in on how we're educating them. We need to introduce gaming.
We need to change the nature of how we reach, how we talk to how we communicate internally. We need to change the media. We need to change in, in DC's core. And, and Larry, to your, your work as in, in branding. Uh, how do you get the, the, the, the man [00:24:00] as the fool, the idiot, the mm-hmm. The bumbling guy who can't pick his own medicine, can't, can't decide how to fix anything.
You know, that, that the, the most, the only man, uh, nuclear family that was functional in television in nine, in 2015 wa was, um, uh. You know, uh, the Simpsons was the Simpsons and, and you know, and, and Bob's burgers. So, you know, we didn't have a functional society of functional male role model in media at that time.
And you look back in history. And, and you can look at the points at which, you know, that that shifted and we weren't seeing the shift back. So I wrote about it, and that became a bestselling book, but didn't have an impact. You know, unfortunately the, you know, I, I really, my Ted women talk, [00:25:00] I asked women to really step up, pay attention to what's going on in masculinity, and start bringing men into, into the circle, into the conversation to accept masculine vulnerability, to get rid of the, you know, uh, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the man as, as the, the control, as the power.
And of course then we had the Me Too movement. The book predicted the Me Too movement if we didn't address the problems. And we to this day have not addressed the problems. And that's where Pref g steps in, uh, and has his voice. And I'll, uh, love to be able to talk about that more a little, you know, maybe we'll get to it later.
Okay. Uh, thanks, thanks for bringing that up. And, and I'm sorry for such a long answer. Maybe, maybe you'll edit me down a little.
LT: No, that's what podcasts are for, Jack. Don't worry about it.
DC: You're all good, brother.
LT: Yeah.
DC: Uh, Larry, I've got a couple things. You got anything on this?
LT: Please go.
DC: The [00:26:00] first one is this Brand Nerds.
I want to be very clear about, uh, Jack's intention with the book and what he just said. 'cause some could take away from this. Ah, man, they got everything. They rule the world. Who needs to take care of them. Jack is not saying this is a zero sum game, right? He's not saying, oh, you know, these men are in trouble, therefore they're losing their power and all of that.
What he is saying, I think, is if we take care of everyone in our society. Everyone. If we notice where there is pain, and by the way, Brand Nerds, we are in the emotional connection business. People buy, vote and do things for emotional reasons and justify it with logic. That's the fact, that's the fact. [00:27:00] If we don't address some of these emotional gaps, our society is not as good functioning as well as it could.
So I want to clear that up right away about, uh, what Jack Meyer's book is about, his speeches and what he's saying now. Then I wanna go to something else. Go ahead, Jack.
Jack Myers: There are still huge gender gaps at the Yes. The senior management level. Yes. You know, at c c-suite levels, uh, across the corporate world and boards, there's still a lot of gender.
DC: Absolutely.
Jack Myers: Um, and, and the research all shows that when there's more gender and and ethnic representation that corporations do better. So, and in marketing, we, we know that's true and, you know, that's true. Uh, but the women's movement, I think we also have to acknowledge how successful the women's movement
DC: Oh, yes.
Jack Myers: The STEM movement, uh, has been and continues to be. And, uh, look, my, my wife Heads a, an organization called Connected Women [00:28:00] Leaders that has launched a Project Dandelion. Focusing on, on, uh, women led solutions for climate, or when you go around the world and you see where the grassroots solutions are, uh, 80% are being, uh, led and, and managed, uh, by, uh, by and implemented by women.
Uh, so we know that women led organizations, women led initiatives and programs, uh, are very powerful at getting things done. And, and we need to actively be working on solutions. Uh, for the masculinity challenge today, they go deeper, uh, than, uh, you know, we're even work. We were certainly deeper than we were recognizing.
Uh, and I don't, to your point, uh, DC I don't wanna diminish the realities of, of, you know, we, we, we have issues [00:29:00] across a lot of different realities in our world today that need attention when we come together, when we operate as one Yeah. Purposeful humanity, we do better. And that's where we win. So, you know, I, I, I appreciate your saying that.
Um, I'm frustrated. Depressed a little by some of the realities we're confronting in the world today. Um, which maybe we'll get into a bit, but, uh, I, I don't think we can certainly underplay, uh, the issues that, uh, professor g. Um, and again, I got some issues there, but, we'll, we'll talk about that maybe,
DC: We'll, we'll get to that later, perhaps, Jack.
Jack Myers: Maybe we'll see. We'll see where we go.
DC: I'll close it with, uh, with this, uh, it can [00:30:00] be both and not either or. Uh, this is coming from a brother. I'm a Black man who has been Black my entire life, and I'm a, I'm gonna go to the grave Black. A proud Black man. I know what it's like to deal with things that, uh, that are challenging.
I know what it's like to walk into a room and not see another person of color. I, I know what that's like. I know what it's like being in a room full of MBAs from the best business schools in the world. And, uh, I, I did undergrad at Alabama A&M, go Bulldogs, and I did grad school at Clark Atlanta University.
These are two HBCUs, so I understand what that's like and the challenges that are there. I also know what it's like to have someone put a hand out to me and say, listen, young man, these are the things you need to know about the environment that you are navigating. I know that as well. And I, and I don't become, uh, at the time, you'll remember this, Jack [00:31:00] in our day, brand Week magazine was like a marketer of the year.
At that time. It was a big deal. Now, all these different platforms at marketed you, but at that time. Jeff Bezos, Steve Jobs, the Google Boys, Larry Page, they were acknowledged as marketers of the year. Without someone looking out for me and understanding some of the pain that I was dealing with, just like men are now, young men are now, I'm never, and I'm not saying this to try to big up myself, I'm not the second youngest at that time, ever, Marketer of the Year. Not, not 40, under 40, not not, uh, top black marketer of the year, none of that top marketer of the year. All of the awards that they had given at that time, second youngest ever. That never happens to me unless someone does for me what you are trying to do for men. Okay, I'll get off my so soapbox.
We are going [00:32:00] now to the next question. This, I mean, next question is called five questions.
Jack Myers: I just wanna say, and I wanna acknowledge I'm a privileged white man who's had a, a reasonably privileged life and, uh, really respect and, and pay tribute to what you've accomplished.
DC: Thank you. Thank you
Jack Myers: Jack.
LT: Yeah, it's amazing.
And Jack, I have to say this before he goes on, the youngest brand week marketer of the year was August Bush the fourth. So, need we say more?
DC: If I'm not gonna be the youngest, I guess I could be second to that guy.
LT: Born on third base. Go ahead D.
DC: Here we go. Next segment, five questions. Larry and I go back and forth until we arrive at five. I have the honor of starting this. What was the first branding experience you had? That just lit your soul a fire captivated your imagination. You couldn't get enough of it. You thought that [00:33:00] when you were engaging with this brand, Jack, you, you thought, ah, I've been thinking about this, or doing this or wearing this, or whatever it is, or listening to this for 15 minutes and you're like, God damn, three hours has passed.
How could three hours have passed? A bit like a first love. What was this for you, Jack?
Jack Myers: Oh, I, I got an answer for you, but because you're talking about brands and because you're such an incredible branding expert, I'm watching a show called Landman on Paramount Plus. Mm-hmm. And I was just watching the most recent episodes, and Sam Elliot is a, is a new character.
He plays the, the lead character is Billy Bob Thornton. Sam Elliot's his grandfather, and his grandfather is in, in a, in a, in a home. And, uh, he's asked, you know, well, what's, you know, what Do you remember? What kind? And he says, it's only one thing. And I remember that's Brill Cream.
DC: Ah, okay. Okay.
Jack Myers: And I, I turned to my wife and I said, Brill [00:34:00] Cream a little dabble do you? Yeah. Dabble. Do you Bri cream? Use it. If you dare Brill cream, the girls will all pursue you. They'll love to run their fingers through your hair. Hair. And, uh, you know, so I, I, I couldn't resist the, you know, sharing that with you. But my first brand love was Dumont television.
LT: Wow.
Jack Myers: Dumont Dumont. Okay.
Now, uh, Dumont was, Dumont invented the cathode ray tube, which was in the back of all those early 1950s television. They created the Dumont Network, which was the first TV network. Created daytime television, putting program onto that tv. They introduced, uh, they built the first TV in 1931 and introduced the first postwar, mass produced TV in 1946.
[00:35:00] Uh, and, and it was the first TV that my dad was willing to bring into my house. He bought a used one for 10 bucks.
LT: Wow.
Jack Myers: And it was a big TV with a little screen. And, uh, I actually got a poster up on my wall for Dumont. Uh, so I'm, uh, uh, and I, I was, I was a little older. A lot of my neighbors had TV and, and it's like.
It's like the, the college kid that you never let have a cocktail or drink and he gets to college and drinks a quarter to Jack Daniels and
LT: Oh yeah, yeah.
Jack Myers: You know, get sick. That was me with tv. I could not get enough of it. It was on for, you know, as soon as I got home from school, it was on. If I, if my parents would let me, it'd be, you know, when they were out late at night, I'd lie there, they'd fall asleep to the tv.
I'd watch late night TVs. Steve, you know, even as a kid, I was watching Steve Allen on late night tv. I watched everything. I grew up in [00:36:00] Utica, New York. I only on
DC: did, did you ever watch the national anthem that would come on?
Jack Myers: Always with the, with the jet planes going over. Of course, of course. You know, and, and I'd watch the, you know, the, the, it'd go to the, to the color, you know, the black and white at the time.
But it'd go to just a symbol, you know, kind of a, yeah. Uh, and, and I'd leave that on. So, yeah, I did. And you know, I grew up in Utica, New York. We only had one television network station channel 13 WKTV. It was a dual affiliate of NBC and A BC. And, and at one point NBC and A-B-C, A-B-C was an offshoot, a sister company of N-B-C, N-B-C owned.
The government forced them to divest. They would call the Red Network, the Blue Network. Wow. And, uh, so we'd watch, you know, I didn't get CBS, which, you know, was horrible. My dad wouldn't put an antenna on. Um, but that [00:37:00] Dumont tv, uh, was just that, that it was emblazoned, it was my first awareness that, that there was something of a brand, you know, that there was something.
I didn't, I didn't watch tv. I watched my Dumont. So it was, that's, that's, uh, it was the first love I had and it's, it's carried me throughout my whole life. That passion about the technology, that passion for television.
LT: I love this D.
DC: Wow. Wow.
LT: You talk about an origin story DC talking about before, that's an origin story, right?
It's a thread. Jack. I mean, that's, that's your origin. And, and, um, I knew about the Dumont network. I did not know, uh, that, uh, I guess maybe I did in the, in the recesses of my mind that Dumont also, uh, uh, manufactured televisions. But it's [00:38:00] incredible that by a certain, whether they got bought out or sold, a lot of times the pioneers don't end up reaping the rewards, shall we say.
Right. Um, they were
Jack Myers: RCA before RCA. They were, you know, they were, they were, uh, they, they had, they had it all. They had the, the t they had the technology, they had the content. They just. I couldn't, couldn't build it, couldn't grow it the way RCA did. Mm-hmm.
LT: Which, and RCA branders, just so you know, was that was NBC, the connection and it was RCA stood for the Radio Corporation of America, if I'm not mistaken.
Right, Jack? Um, that was good. That's exactly
Jack Myers: right. Yeah.
LT: Yeah. Oh, I love this story. BS Columbia
Jack Myers: broadcast system.
LT: Yeah.
Right, right.
DC: Dee, any thoughts, uh, before we get to the next question? I don't, let's go to the next question. That was great.
LT: That was great, Jack. Okay. So who has had or is having the most influence on your career?
Jack Myers: I should, by the way, give some credit to the New York Yankees for being the other [00:39:00] brand. Hmm. That I grew up with. And that's an origin story. That's a, you know, we could, it's a whole other story around that. But I do wanna give some credit to the Yankees, uh, for, for being a such a dominant brand in my life.
Go ask me the second question again.
LT: That's cool. Who that We, we, we totally read you on the Yankees. So, second question is, who has had, or is having the most influence on your career?
Jack Myers: Okay. So the, the, i I gotta go in two different directions there. The, the, the individuals had the most influence on my career as Dr. Neil Postman. Neil Postman is my professor at NYU. Uh, he was the founder of the Media Ecology, uh, program at NYU, which Expa, which grew out of his being mentored by Marshall McClean.
LT: Wow.
Jack Myers: Uh, the medium is, is the massage. The medium is the message, of course. Uh, and Neil Postman, [00:40:00] uh, what wrote a number of books, the most prominent of which is amusing ourselves to death, public discourse in the age of show business, which anticipated, uh, Donald Trump and, and how media has become so prominent.
Media ecology has been the most formative part of my career. I've called myself a media ecologist You look at my business card at the, you know, when I had one, it said media ecologist, and you mentioned
LT: we've read it in your intro
Jack Myers: DC and, or, you know, in, in the introduction, Larry. So, yep. Um, you know, the, um.
Uh, so Neil, I, I remember, I, I was at a, B, C, you mentioned I was at a b, C radio. Uh, and, and I, they paid for me to get a master's degree. I thought I'd take advantage of it. I found this thing called Media Ecology at NYU. I didn't know what it was, but it was media. So I, uh, signed up and I, I walked into [00:41:00] course, I was high at the time, you know, first class in, you know, master's program.
You know, I figure I'll to, to, you know, tune up a little before I go in. Right. I walk into class. I learned more in the first 10 minutes of that class than I had learned in four years of college.
LT: Wow.
Jack Myers: I still have, I still have my notebook from that media Ecology 1 0 1. Wow. And today, I, I just wroted and it was just in the last month, published a textbook called Media Ecology for the 21st Century.
So it stayed with me. It's been incredibly formative, but. In terms of individual, like more traditional, uh, influences in my career, I've gotta go back to CBS and, and the people who were responsible for giving me an opportunity, uh, to introduce, uh, ideas for business development to say, let's go outside of the.
World. We're currently [00:42:00] operating in our veils model. Let's go out and see where categories and, and at that time, I, I focused on newspaper advertisers who were the local retailers, heavily, the fashion retailers. We were getting 0% of their budgets and they were spending millions in new space. Said, we've gotta be able, right?
And everyone, and, and they, the answer came back, Hey, they've tried it before. They've always failed. Well, to your point, DC they were doing brand advertising and they were failing in television with brand advertising. Why? Because they were in the business of driving next day sales. Mm-hmm. I figure, and they were using vendor dollars.
They were using the manufacturer dollars. So I put together a whole program that I pitched to a, uh, a guy named Mike De Janero. He was the director of sales at Channel two in New York. I had been there six months. I'd come from PLJ where I was retail sales [00:43:00] manager, and I was the lowest sales person in, in the, in the totem pole.
Six months selling retail sales at a company where that was, I was at the furthest office away from the managers, right? And my boss, who was retail sales manager, local sales manager who, who had kind of brought me in and said, let's develop some retail business, got promotion. And all of a sudden his job's open.
And I look at the three guys who are pitching the job and one of them's gonna get the job. And I'm realizing I'm gonna be outta work. None of these guys are gonna continue to support. And so I went to Mike de Janeiro, the director of sale. I said, I, I just gotta ask you about my future. I'm, I'm like, I see who you're about to hire and here's what I'm doing and here's what I believe in and, you know, should I be looking for a job?
And he said, and I said, I know it's too soon for me to pitch the job. He said, why is it [00:44:00] too soon for you to pitch the job? I pitched the job, I got the job. Not only did he give me the job, he had to go to his boss, who was general, the general manager of Channel two, a guy named Tom Leahy. And Tom had to agree to hire me.
Sight on without having met me. And I remember I hadn't gotten the job yet and I, and I was in an event and Tom was there and I introduced myself and he said, oh, you're Jack Myers. And he talked to me for a bit and I said, I think I'm gonna get this. I think I'm gonna get this job.
LT: So, so, so help me out, Jack.
What was the actual job?
Jack Myers: It was retail sales manager for channel two. Got it. Okay. It was local, local sales manager for channel two. Local sales manager was typically the stepping stone for general sales manager. Got it. Which is the stepping stone for director of sales, which is a stepping stone for, you know, who [00:45:00] knows what.
Right. Um, so, and, and it was, and, and I then had a, uh, a long seven year career of doing business development, uh, and, and having four promotions and, and, uh, seven years. Uh, Mike De Janeiro, Tom Lehey, Gale Trell, a guy named Dave Poltrack, who was around for, you know, 50 years at CBS. After that, I remember him.
They were all, it was a culture that was willing to take a chance, that was willing to take risks, that was willing to step out of the traditional box that you're in as a sales organization. And it, it was the catapult for my career. Nothing would've happened in my career had I not been given that opportunity.
LT: Love that origin. More origin story. This is great. D, anything to add before we go to the next question?
DC: I do have one thing for the Brand Nerds. What [00:46:00] you heard Jack say is as he's talking with, uh, someone who was giving him advice, that person asked a critical question, why don't you pitch for it? Why don't you pitch for it?
To which young Jack says, oh yeah, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go pitch for this. Had you not been asked that question, maybe you would've maybe not. Not sure, but you were asked the question and it was a bit of a nudging. Brand Nerds, as you sit here now listening to this podcast and you are thinking about your career and maybe your next step, whatever it is, why don't you pitch for it?
Jack Myers: You that saying, that reminded me. There's one more person I have to add, and his name's Larry Divney. lot of people in your audience may remember Larry. He, uh, [00:47:00] the last job he had in his career was he was, uh, president of MTV, uh, Viacom Ad Sales. He, he headed up, uh, comedy Central, uh, for a while, but Larry was at WPLJ and he was my boss.
Uh, uh, I was a salesman there and I had to, to your point about pitching, uh, he had the job of local sales manager open at WPLJ, and, and I pitched that. And, uh, my pitch was, you know, let's focus in, let's make it retail we're going after, as opposed to the legacy advertisers. So if Larry hadn't given me that job, I, I never would've gotten the job to begin with at channel two.
So it's, it's a hierarchy of, and Larry remained one of my best friends, continues to be one of my best friends today and had a long influence, uh, on my career. So, uh, I wanna give him a shout out there too.
DC: Shout out Larry Divney. Yes. All right, next question. Jack, [00:48:00] your virtues have been extolled and in, um, in depth, this next question has not a thing to do with any of these wonderful virtues that you have.
Not a one. This question begs you. To focus on the biggest F up, the one that's on you, Jack? Not, not. Oh, the market changed and my boss did this and they took the budget. No, no, no, no. You Jack Myers thought one thing was going to happen. You did it. You led a group to do it, someone gave you money, client, whatever, and it bombed.
What was that for you? And more importantly, what'd you learn from it?
Jack Myers: I could name a half [00:49:00] dozen things that I've bombed at that were pretty big and pretty meaningful. Um, you know, one thing I'm sure we've both learned that when we're being interviewed and someone asks you that question or the similar question, you always wanna find something that can be turned around as a positive.
You know, you don't wanna, so, so, uh. Uh, the, the reality is that if, if I've, if, if I've had a court that has led to all of my fuck up, that's the initial fuck up
DC: Yeah.
Jack Myers: Is that I've believed too much in myself. I believed too much in my own ideas. I believed too much that I was right about things. And, you know, it, it, it, most of those things turned out I was right.
But it took anywhere from five to 20, maybe even 40 years before there was evidence that, you know, if, if people had, if companies and clients and people had followed the future of men being an example of that. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, being right, being too early, [00:50:00] uh, and, and believing too much in myself and not taking in a good partner.
Who could manage the business realities. While I managed the idea, the marketing, the belief, I've been a really good salesperson for my idea. So I convinced people to go with me long enough. But when I asked them then to pay for it, pay enough to be profitable, to be financially successful,
DC: Yeah.
Jack Myers: I did not get over that leap.
So I would say the single biggest disappointment among several along those lines is company called Television Production Partners. Mm-hmm. Founded with my part, uh, with David Houl, uh, who is, was in the business at the time, in the, in the early nineties, mid nineties, and has [00:51:00] become one of. Really leading global futurists today.
Uh, he and I recognized that the, the Hollywood system, uh, that, that the media industry, the television network programming industry as cable was, you know, being introduced. And as we looked at the opportunities we saw there, there's a disconnect in the Hollywood community and the advertising community DC you may, you may even remember TPP.
'cause we had, we introduced this idea of advertiser funded. Primetime network television programming where the funding was not brand associated. The funding was a business, but the brands did because Coca-Cola was one of the founding partners. We had 10 founding partners, General Motors guy named [00:52:00] Chuck Fruit at Coca-Cola.
DC: Oh, Chuck Fruit.
LT: We know Chuck.
DC: Chuck.
LT: Rest in peace. Chuck. What year was this about Jack?
Jack Myers: This was 1993 to 96 that we're 97 that we were building this and launching it. So Chuck, Pete Sealey, Phil Garcio, Pete Sealey, the General Motors, uh, John Costello, Sears Roebuck, uh, Paul Mulcahy at Campbell Soup Kors. Uh, Bob Bolte at Clorox.
Some real brand legends. CMO Legends believed that we had a good idea that it, and, and we convinced them to put up, uh, $40 million, $4 million each to invest in primetime network television programming. But we held the backend. We, we, so we had deals with Sony, with Colo, Columbia Tristar, Sony, we with Paramount, with Fox, with a, b, c.
We produced a few programs. I was nominated for an [00:53:00] Academy Award and with, uh. With Turner Broadcasting for a film called Hank Aaron Chasing the Dream. Okay. And, uh, so we, we produced some, some stuff and the business model was that that's when backend was available. Backend, you know, 50%.
LT: Jack, explain to the Brand Nerds just quickly what backend means.
So they understand.
Jack Myers: Backend means that, uh, a network television show, typically the studio paid about 80%. The network covered another 20 to 30%. And in return for, uh, and then there were different funding partners. The direct, you know, the talent maybe, you know, got residuals, right? Mm-hmm. The, the, the, the producers got and, and so the studio and only retained.
Typically, uh, 20 to 80% of the, the international rights, the syndication rights, the merchandising rights. Mm-hmm. Uh, the, that, [00:54:00] that was the backend distribution,
LT: That's the backend revenue branders, that Jack backend.
Jack Myers: Revenue model. And that's, you know, there was net, there was all kinds of, right. So we figured out the economics, we put it together.
It took us three years to get it together. We got the money up, we got it funded. And the the we, when we started succeeding, the agencies conspired with the network sales organizations to kill it. Mm. To shut it down. And they started going to, there were some management changes at the brands. They start, number one, they said there's, the backend is dying.
International sales are drying up. This is before cable and syndication is dying. No one's buying any of these old programs. The backend has no, well, Netflix got rid of the backend. They own a hundred percent. They turned it into a work for hire. Uh, we had it, we had it, we [00:55:00] did it. We put it together, and we could not raise funds because the funding partners, the VCs, or the equity partners and the advertisers fundamentally were convinced it was not a good business model.
So we, we kept the backend. Mm-hmm. We gave 70, 80% of the backend to a pool. We operated on 20 to 30% of our revenues, and that pool would be distributed to help defray the cost of soup future production that our advertisers would then have the beneficiaries of for their advertising placement. Mm-hmm. They didn't have to buy in those shows, but they would get a credit back, a capital credit back that would defray their cost of future advertising.
The, the p and g was doing it for years. We really followed the p and g model. You know, they did daytime television, they [00:56:00] did, uh, you know, the, the original circus of the stars and, you know, things like that. And Coca-Cola did some of it. Coca-Cola did partnered with, uh, uh, CAA in Hollywood. Yep. Yeah. Uh, to, to develop programming and content.
Yeah. So, uh, I, I, that's not a, I mean, again, I can't say it was a fuck up. It was a fuck up that I didn't figure out how to make sure from the business side, not that we didn't have the right model, but that we didn't have the right. People to sell it in from to the business, people at the cli, at the clients, at the advertisers, at the agencies, and at the networks.
And that was my flaw and my fault. And, and it, you know, look, it, it's, uh, it's all history. Uh, too late now for the advertisers to step up and fix the mess they're in, uh, with, you know, performance based [00:57:00] advertising. Too late for the networks to fix their financial models. And, you know, we see the legacy challenges that exist today.
Uh, we saw that David and I really saw it, and the advertisers and people like Chuck Fruit saw it back then too, but couldn't get it done.
LT: Interesting story. D you have anything to add before we hit the next question?
DC: A quick one. I'm gonna connect Chuck Fruit to origin stories. Chuck Fruit is a legend rest in power.
Chuck Fruit. Those who know him know that, uh, the way he would run meetings sometimes is he would get folks together in a room. He knew what was going to happen. He'd walk out the meeting, would go, go on, this is at Coke. And then he'd come back in. And then if the meeting was landed where he wanted it to land, he was all good.
If not, he would make sure that it landed. Um, a little origin story. Today, we know Clear [00:58:00] Channel and we know Live Nation. There was a time where Clear Channel was not only a media company doing radio, mostly radio, but they also own performance venues. I work with Chuck Fruit when we were negotiating a deal with Clear Channel where we were buying radio from them, and also for years doing sponsorship inside of these venues where we'd have pouring rights, we had spent hundreds of millions of dollars, let me say it again, hundreds of millions of dollars, and this is decades ago.
Uh, with, uh, with Clear Channel during one of these negotiations, which was contentions contentious. I'm talking, uh, to, to Chuck and, and, and we go. Um, we've agreed on the media side of this. The problem now is on the sponsorship of the venues and pouring rights, and then this happens. You know what? We're not [00:59:00] giving them shit for the sponsorship and the pouring rights.
We're spending hundreds of millions of dollars over here. You are giving us clear channel pouring rights. You're gonna gift that to us. That's how Live Nation got started. Because they said, oh, now they did it, but they weren't gonna let anyone else do that to them. No, sir. So they carved out Live Nation as a separate entity and said, concert venues and pouring rights will be done by this different company, different tick ticker, different p and l and everything.
And that happened be through a conversation between Chuck Fruit and I.
LT: Wow.
DC: Yeah. Yep.
LT: I never heard that story. That's a great story. That's a, a truly story brand nerds and how that shaped the, really, that whole entire business going forward.
Jack Myers: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I gotta add to that. You mentioned Larry, that, uh, Tim Spengler and I are launching Lead Human Talk about empathetic leadership.
Chuck [01:00:00] Fruit personified, empathetic leadership. Oh yeah. Oh, he did?
DC: Yeah,
Jack Myers: he did.
Who he was as a, as a human being. He was extraordinary. What a loss to us. Mm-hmm.
LT: You won't find anybody to say anything bad about Chuck Fruit, whoever interacted with him. No.
DC: No. And if they do, I don't, I don't want deal with him.
LT: That's right.
DC: Yeah. I don't wanna deal with him. All right, Larry.
LT: Okay, so this is such a good question for you, Jack. So, regarding technology and marketing, we've already identified you're just right at the epicenter of those two areas. Uh, can you tell us what you think marketers should lean in or best leverage tech?
Or you can take us to areas you think they should be leery or simply avoid.
Jack Myers: They should be leaning into ai. Anyone who's not leaning into generative AI today and where it's headed is making a massive, massive mistake. And, and, uh, it will be their fuckup story, uh, in the future. Yeah. It'll be, yeah. Now that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean that we're not gonna have a [01:01:00] pullback.
That doesn't mean there arent gonna be companies that are gonna go out of business. You know, people said the, the internet was dead at one point, people said, you know, I, when I was at CBS and they said, ca you know, if you don't, if you don't like cable leave, uh, I mean, if you, if you like cable leave, you know, there it was.
Cable's not gonna be here in five years. So we've always been through that with any technological upheaval. But this is the single most dynamic, dramatic transformation since the printing press. When you had the Protestant Reformation and the Creative Revolution and the Renaissance emerge out of it, I believe that this is going to be the, the, I'm waiting for the advertising creative Renaissance because with every technological transformation and disruption and upheaval, major one, there's been a, a commensurate creative [01:02:00] explosion, you know, television, creativity, the internet with user-generated video and that we're seeing today.
Um, we are on the cusp of a massive transformation of creative in of creativity. And I, I've written a co, I've wrote a book called Creativity Unleashed. Um. Uh, uh, that, that's a kind of a how to, uh, learn and use ai. It's free at, at Amazon Creativity Unleashed. Uh, so if you're asking me, should you, I think the question was should you lean in or lean back or lean out, or, I'd say, um, lean into understanding how ai, generative AI can be a collaborator, a partner, uh, a friend in, in, in everything, in anything you're doing.
From as simple as, you know, writing an email that's more [01:03:00] effective to, uh, to building an advertising and marketing campaign.
LT: Jack, we applaud you big time. We've had a lot of conversations in the last couple years about this and, um, and DC and I in the last year in our consulting side of our business. We use ai like man and Oh yes.
It's been, it's, it's, we, we joke that, you know, chat, GPT is a, is our next, is our other partner. And it's, it's helped us immeasurably. I am startled by a couple things. Um, so we're with you entirely like brand nerd and we've said this, lean in all the way. 'cause if you don't lean in, you're gonna get run over and it's gonna happen quickly.
Um, where I live, Jack in, in, uh, the Bay Area, what's incredibly startling is that in the last two years, you know, with, I love San Francisco, it's my adopted hometown. I'm originally born and bred New Yorker, which I'm proud of [01:04:00] being. But San Francisco's my, my home. I love it. I think it's been disparaged. For a lot of, uh, reasons I don't, won't get into.
And, and I, we, we take the tact here. If you don't like us, fine. 'cause this is the most beautiful place we think there is. And, but AI is also transforming the business of ai. All those companies are going down in the south of market area in San Francisco. That's where they all are. They're not in Silicon Valley, they're going in San Francisco.
And so I've seen that happen. DC was here not too long ago and I pointed out to 'em all these AI billboards by the Bay Bridge, that's all everywhere. It's, it's all to just say, look at me. It's all to, to show their VCs like, Hey, we are meaningful. It's not really about anything other than that. Just flex some muscles.
But, but that's on the business side. But what you just said is so huge because we're just discovering that and I thought. [01:05:00] We lived through the internet era. I thought the internet was the, was what you just said about ai. I thought that that the same about the internet. And I never thought we would, um, live through and experience something that was grander than the internet.
And I agree with you, Jack. I think it's way bigger and way more transformative than the internet. And all the things with mobile and everything, it's, it's, that's how big it is. Totally agree with you.
Jack Myers: I just, I just, um, my next book is called Your Third Brain Powering A Future of Unimagined Possibilities.
It's gonna be published in August, 2026 by Morgan James. It's about cot intelligence. It's about, uh, the, the combination of human and machine, and it introduces what I call Gen Nexus. Gen Nexus. Uh, I don't call 'em Gen A or Gen B or Gen Z. They're after Gen Alpha. They're born 2020 to 2040. They're the first generation of grow up with internet.
You know, parent [01:06:00] recently. Told me that the, the first word that their child said was not mama or dadda, it was Alexa because it was the word they heard most in their house.
DC: Oh, wow.
Jack Myers: And I thought, yes, that's the future there. This is gonna be a part of that, that child's life forever. And it's just gonna become more and more integrated into their lives.
That's co intelligence. And, and, uh, so I'm, I'm, uh, uh, I'm really dedicated now. You know, it's been a pattern of, you go back to, you know what I was saying with the Dumont, you know, technology, I've, I've always, uh, believed that looked at, here's the technology. The technology's not gonna go away, so how's it gonna be used?
How, how's it gonna change generations? And I think this is the hugest, most important generational shift, uh, that and, and how we introduce ethics and morality and, and responsibility. And beware of [01:07:00] bias in, in AI is, is critically important. And I don't think we can leave it up to our generations. And, you know, I don't think we can leave it up to, uh, anyone, but this next generation to, uh, let it evolve because it, it's gonna be, uh, I hope, I hope, and I'm writing, uh, a fiction book.
I hope that you know it. This next generation, this gen Nexus is gonna lead us to a better world and, you know, to solve a lot of the problems and issues that, you know, we talked about earlier. Not to mention environmental issues. I, I think AI is, is potentially machine intelligence and machine learning, uh, could have enormous impact on the issues that are plaguing our world and plaguing humanity and plaguing civilization could also be.
Additive problem. So that's the [01:08:00] interesting thing.
LT: Yes. All great stuff. Wow. All amazing. D, you wanna hit the next question?
DC: Jack? What are you most proud of, brother?
Jack Myers: Proud of the fact that people like you want to have me and introduce me to your audiences That I'm pretty proud of. I mean, I, I think that's, that's special. It's meaningful, it, it's meaningful for you to have said the words that you said DC in, in the opening introduction. Uh, that, that's what I'm proud of.
I'm proud. Of course. You, you know, the natural answer is a, a, uh, have my children, uh, you know, I have three kids, uh, with my wife, another two kids. Uh, with together we have, uh, five grandchildren with another on the way. Um, so naturally they, they'd, they, you gotta put them at the top of the list.
DC: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jack Myers: And, uh, but I, but I'd say [01:09:00] I'm gonna go into the future and I'm gonna, I'm, I said I'm writing a, a fiction, I'm writing a science fiction trilogy.
LT: You have a name for it yet?
Jack Myers: Hmm?
LT: Do you have a name for it yet?
Jack Myers: Eidolon, E-I-D-O-L-O-N, Eidolon. It's Phantom and it's Greek for Phantom. And it's, uh, it's a 150 years from now.
And it, you know, you could look at Matrix, you can look where the, the connect, the, the, there's no, you don't need to go into the internet or onto a computer to go into the virtual world of Metaverse. I hope that Mark Zuckerberg continues to invest in the Metaverse 'cause I think ultimately he is gonna have a big payback from it, and he's onto something.
I think he sees what the potential is, and the potential is this seamless, uh, connection, uh, between the virtual and, and the, and the IRL or real world. Um, and so my science, I, I'm most proud that I'm, [01:10:00] I. S In 2006, I wrote a little pamphlet called Virtual Worlds Rewiring Our Emotional DNA. It was about something called Second Life that's still around.
Uh, it's a virtual world, Second Life, and it's actually pretty sophisticated, uh, virtual world even today. But I wrote about, and, and at the, the, the last chapter of that book was the first chapter of a proposed science fiction book. And I always wanted to expand that first chapter. So I, I decided I was gonna give it a shot.
I had some time out in Santa Barbara, uh, this summer, and I sat down and I, I was able to actually develop the outline and write book one, and I, and I realized as I was. Kind of getting to the end of the book. There's a cliffhanger here, so lemme see if I, so I started book two and I sent book one off to my publisher, uh, um, and, um, he said, [01:11:00] you know, this is, we wanna publish this.
So I think that's most, I think that's, I'm most proud of the fact that I'm, I think it may be a four book trilogy, you know, like a restaurant at the end of the Universe Trilogy in four books. So, uh, I'm, I'm proud that I, that I'm, I'm doing the, I've been able to evolve my career to the point where I can do something that I've always wanted to do and I'm doing it.
LT: Awesome.
DC: That is fantastic. That's fantastic.
LT: All right, D, Woo. This is deep. I think, uh, we ready to hit the next segment?
DC: Let do it.
LT: All right. DC Jack, what's popping?
DC: What's popping?
LT: So, Jack, this is our chance to shout out, shout down, or simply air something in and around marketing today that we think is good fodder for [01:12:00] discussion. And we understand you have something that is flavorful for us.
Hit us.
Jack Myers: You brought it up right at the beginning. The future of men. You know, Pro G Scott Galloway. He pisses me off. I don't like the man. Uh oh. Uh oh. I do not like what he, I like what he is doing. I like that he is paying attention to an important problem. But, you know, his framing treats men as a distressed demographic to be activated, to be monetized, and not a generation to be rebuilt. Mm. You know, when I wrote The Future of Men, it, it was. There, there were solutions that could still change outcomes. You know, we're in the outcome business in marketing DC Yeah. Um, Scott's focus comes after the collapse when the pain is obvious and when the anger is monetizable.
And I don't like when people monetize [01:13:00] anger. And, and I think a lot of marketing today is political marketing. Social marketing is monetizing anger, monetizing problems, and that's, that's commentary. It's not leadership. And so I don't think he's showing leadership real solutions require long-term commitment and exploitation requires a microphone and a monetization funnel.
And, and that's what. That, that's, I think what he's doing. I think timing, you know, to your point earlier, DC saying that, you know, that was 20 15, 20 16 when I wrote, I think timing reveals intent. So to write what I did to give the Ted women talk when I did in 2016, I think that uncovers my intent.
DC: Mm-hmm.
LT: Yep.
Jack Myers: I think that Scott is on a bandwagon and [01:14:00] monetizing that bandwagon. I think that reveals what his intent is. It's not to fix the problem, it's not to address the problem, it's not to identify the solutions. Uh, you know, I really treated men as, to your point earlier, as humans needing dignity, needing purpose, needing direction, and he treats them as an audience optimized for attention, outrage, and scale.
And that offends me. It offends me.
DC: Hmm.
LT: Oh, I love this D oh, I'm loving this.
DC: Uh,
LT: Jack, this is awesome.
DC: Uh, shots fired. Shots fired. Go ahead, Larry.
LT: Mind if I chime in? Okay. So please, I, I've read a lot of what Galloway has, uh, put forth and along with, um, you know, been consuming a ton of what you've done. And so I see why you would be angry.
And I, I'm totally with you. You are trying to, you were the, and you were the first [01:15:00] one, by the way. Let's make that clear. Brand Nerds, Jack was way before, uh, Scott Galloway was as it relates to this. Okay?
DC: Yep.
LT: And he talked about even just seeing the graduation rates, and that's, this is 10 years ago now. So Jack was raising his hand and saying, Hey, there's an issue, and now here's actions we all need to take.
It's in all of our best interests as people. No matter what your gender is. To fix this because, you know, that's the situation personally, Jack, I've lived it and let, let me give you that background. Um, I was, my, our, our son Jake is 22 years old, um, in his fifth year of college. So he's right in, in, in the bandwidth, bandwidth of this.
And he represents a ton of what you've talked about. And I think that, um, what needs to happen is how do we fix this? How do we, you know, this is, this is a big, huge issue that needs to take action. [01:16:00] And Galloway seems like, to your point, he's just trying to. To, um, almost come at it from a very negative place where yours is positive, not not positive in what's happening, but let's fix this.
Let's roll up our sleeves and fix this. And Galloway is seeing it as more of, uh, of an opportunity to say, Hey, this is a problem and let's monetize it. And so that's the, that's what I'm seeing in a very distinct difference. And I'm on team Jack Myers in a big way.
Jack Myers: Well, thank you. Thank you. I'm, you know, in terms of fixing it, we're a couple gener we're, we're like, um, uh, gen Z and Gen Alpha into this.
We're, we're a couple generations into this problem and into this reality. And, and it, it's gonna start, if we're gonna really change things, it needs to start with education and it needs to start in preschool. It needs to start with how we're educating the tools we're using to educate, taking the, the mobile device.
I [01:17:00] understand taking the mobile device out of the school systems, which is, you know, kind of a big movement today. Uh, I have a 14-year-old grandson who spends most of his time in a very sophisticated computer setup. And, and frankly, you know, I don't think it's. I actually think it's appropriate for him. I think it's the right way and he is, but he should, he should not just be doing Fortnite and Minecraft and
LT: Right.
Jack Myers: Uh, you know, the gaming, there should be, uh, there should be some really focus on how do we use gaming as an educational tool? How do we rethink, uh, education? Um, I'm teaching right now at the University of Arizona and, and, uh, there's a huge registration process for, uh, live in person and I think at colleges around the country are experiencing for the first time while the, the applications are up.
Uh, you know, the actual, uh, educational curriculum is being challenged and, [01:18:00] uh, students don't are looking for alternatives. Uh, we talked about the, you know, the male female skew, uh, which is growing, not declining. Uh, so I think it has to start with how we're looking at, uh, how we're looking at education right from the beginning.
You know, I quote my, I mentioned Neil Postman, so I quote Neil Postman, Neil Postman, and, and this quote that I'm gonna share with you, he quotes Marshall McClean and, and Marshall McClean quotes Aldi Huxley in Brave New World, and Aldis Huxley quotes HG Wells. Mm-hmm. And it's the same quote, and it's, we're on a path.
We're on a, we're on a, we're at a pivotal moment. We're on a path. And the, and the road is diverging between destruction and education. Hmm. And that's. That it, it's been a consistent theme that has run [01:19:00] through science fiction. It's, it's run through edu, you know, the, the, uh, the educational systems. Um, it's run through most of the philosophical thinkers about how do we solve massive cultural problems.
And education is always the answer.
LT: Totally agree.
DC: This is juicy. This is juicy.
Jack Myers: Thank you.
DC: Friend of mine used to work with at Coca-Cola, his name is Jeff Waterman. He has these sayings, Jack, they're phenomenal. And we call them Waterman-isms. Waterman-isms. One of them was this. Anything in life that goes exceptionally well or horrifically poorly. Okay, so [01:20:00] like top of the moon, man, this really, really went well.
Or this thing is dead, dead, dead. Why did it even come to be in terms of an issue, how it gets communicated from one human to another? He said it comes down to three things. He did them in an acrostic called pet, PET. The P is positioning. How does a subject get positioned? When, when, when it's talked about how is it positioned in the marketplace, in the media, in the mind.
E is expectations. What is the person that you're talking to or the audience, what are they expecting to get? And the T is timing. He said, if you get all three of these things right, the way you go about an issue, a brand or whatever, a conversation, it's going to [01:21:00] go great. If you fuck up any one of these, you got a problem.
For example, you might position the subject of, Hey, I really need a new car. And the expect, that's the p and the expectation of the person you're talking to might be, that's good. I was expecting you to ask me for a new car. So you're looking good. Like, I'm gonna get a new composition in this. Right? Let's say I'm talking to my parents, uh, and the expectation is, yep, I kind of thought you might have, you're graduating from college.
Okay. But if the timing is when I just lost my job. Yeah. No, that's not gonna work. Yeah. That, that's not gonna work. It ain't gonna work. Nope. Yeah. Let, let, not a good time. Yeah. Let me connect this to this issue of, uh, of men and prof. GI believe the [01:22:00] positioning maybe Okay. Could be a little off. The expectation to me works for a subset of men who feel like they have been crushed by the world.
Jack Myers: Mm-hmm.
DC: But for the large, the larger population of, uh, young men, I don't think they're expecting that. I don't think they're expecting to hear a story of how they are knuckle, dragging, emotionally insecure, uh, people who don't have a future. I just don't think they're expecting that. And the timing, I think, is off.
Yeah. Introducing that in this time. I believe is not good. It it, it's not good. Which leads me to my conclusion on this. What's popping that you brought up? It's outstanding. Jack is, I, I believe in therapy. I was doing therapy once. And, um, my therapist said this to me 'cause I'm talking to her about how someone else has [01:23:00] done something that I, I, it's like, how could they possibly do that?
And she says, you know, um, when there is a breakdown, there's rarely any one of the parties that is 100% guilty or 100% innocent.
LT: Mm-hmm.
DC: And I, and Larry and Jack, I'm looking at this therapist like, what? And I paused to just contemplate what she said and I was like, oh, if there's a breakdown, maybe my first stop is to determine what is my contribution.
To this break, what can I do? And Jack, what I hear from you are pathways for the young men themselves through education as well as young women through education to understand their roles in this thing and what they might do about 'em. What I [01:24:00] hear in the marketplace is just blame and 0% accountability of the young men.
Literally zero. That's my response
Jack Myers: and, and I think DC if we focus in on par young parents. Coaches.
DC: Yep.
Jack Myers: Mentors.
DC: Yep.
Jack Myers: Educators who are going to be the ones bringing up this next generation and, and the, the generation that's in grade school right now. And junior school.
DC: Mm-hmm.
Jack Myers: Even in high school. And start really focusing there on making sure that the culture is in place to what you said right at the top.
Recognize the value of every human being.
DC: Yeah.
LT: Yep.
Jack Myers: Empathy, listening and creating a sense of belonging.
LT: Yeah.
Jack Myers: If we can bring those three [01:25:00] qualities you like, you like to go with threes, I like to go with threes. Empathy, empathetic leadership. Listening to people, hearing, not just listening, but hearing, absorbing, bringing to it critical thinking.
Creating a sense of belonging where everyone feels they have a place. Uh, I think we begin to solve the challenges that we're confronting with masculinity, with the, I mean, the challenges happening in, in our political polarization and in our ethnic challenges in, in the world, in terms of religion. Uh, let's bring some critical thinking.
Let's bring some listening, let's bring some empathy and, and let's just create a world where everyone belongs for those young people who haven't yet been formed. And let's make sure, going back to Larry, your [01:26:00] San Francisco colleagues who are in ai, working in ai, and get everyone who's got a job, no matter what it is that's related to building out these platforms at at and thropic, at Open AI at Gemini.
To, to ask the question, what are we doing within our organization to make sure that empathy and belonging are, that empathy is just built in that ethics and morality and biases are being addressed, and, and I don't think they are.
LT: Hmm. Awesome stuff, Jack.
DC: Yeah. Hmm.
Jack Myers: Oh man.
LT: D, what a great topic that was, that Jack gave us there.
Jack Myers: Um, oh, you, you brought it up at the beginning, but thank you so much. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. Boy, it's rare I get to, you know, voice my emotions, which is really powerful. Thank you.
LT: That's, [01:27:00] that's key. That's key. All right, Jack, we again, these conversations. Uh, that we have with folks like you, and there's just, they seem like they go in a blink of an eye because they're so wonderful for us.
Uh, so we're, uh, we're gonna segue into our learnings, um, and DC and I will go, um, and I'm gonna go first. I have a ton, so I'm just gonna try and boil these down. Um, so number one, brand nerd. When there is a problem that Jack noticed with men, when you see something like that in a real meta way, don't just identify the problem.
Don't just provide commentary, right? Be like, Jack can find solutions and be the solution. So that's number one. Number two, like Jack did at CBS, if you see an opportunity like he saw for that sales manager position, be bold and go for it. That's number two. Number three, if [01:28:00] you can't see. If you can find a risk-taking culture when you're looking for opportunities, look at that.
Look and see, does this company, are they risk averse or are they a risk taker? Because if you're bold and you're the A person who wanna makes things happen, you wanna find a culture that will enable you to do what you can do. So look for that when you're looking at a new job. See if it's a, if it's a risk taking culture or not.
Number four, uh, you want, when you're thinking about a partner in life, a business partner, whatever, think about what complimentary skills they have for you that's really important and how you work together in a sort of yin yang way. Number five, embrace co intelligence between machine and your brain. And that's what we all the three of us espouse.
And think about how AI can help you in all ways that you do your work, your life, your play, [01:29:00] everything. And lean fully into it, harness and leverage that. A AI gen Nexus. Number six, a new thing. I'm really gonna be looking at that, Jack, as you were, as you identified those who were born from 2020 to 2040.
And what are the, what are the cultural things and the technology that they're gonna be born into and how it shapes them. Um, and number seven, like Jack has always done, including right up to this point where he's writing his science fiction story, Brand Nerds, continue to evolve your career and find that sweet spot between your passion, like what you do well and your passion and what is happening in culture in the marketplace.
And this is the last one, Brand Nerds that Jack was just alluding to. It's all about empathy, really hearing what people are saying, having the critical thinking to think about what we need to. Create a sense of belonging. Everybody wants a sense of community [01:30:00] that is at the heart. I think Jack of what you've talked about, uh, with some of what's happening with men and that trying and struggling to find that community outside the technology, that's a big challenge for all of us.
So that's something I think we all need to think about as we challenge, uh, for ourselves, for the future and what we need to do. Those are mine.
DC: Outstanding, Larry. Wow.
Jack Myers: Thank you. Thank you.
DC: Yeah. Outstanding brand nerds. At the top of the podcast, I said, stop. For those of you all who stopped to listen to this, and you're still with us now, I'm guessing you understand why I started with that notion, Jack, at this time in the program.
Um, I make a valiant attempt [01:31:00] to share with our guest what I believe they are gifting us with in this world that only they can do in the way they do it. Um, I, I say this, and I'm not just saying this because this has been the theme of the show here. I attempt to describe the human, the human, and the gifts that this human has.
I attempt the process. Jack varies. Sometimes it happens, uh, at the end of the show where something will come to me sometimes in the middle, but it's never happened the way it's happened here with you, and it happened in the first second. That is because even though I've never met you before. I've read so much of your material.
I kind of felt like I knew you, kind of felt [01:32:00] like I knew you. And then through the time that we've had here together, Larry and I, it's been a fantastic conversation. If this were a book, it already had a front cover and a back cover. The chapters just needed to be written, and you have now written those for me.
So let me get into my conclusions. When we ask you the question about your first branding experience, you talked about Dumont, but you also talked about Bri Cream, but Dumont Dumont and you described the tube that they make and the network and the daytime tv, they produce TVs. You even mentioned that you've got a poster on the wall and you kind of motioned, you kind of pointed over, looked over at this poster on the wall.
I thought, hmm, dumont, this is tv. [01:33:00] Then you talked about same question WK tv, channel 13, NB, C and A, B, C, the red and blue network. I did not know they were called that. Then RCA came up as a part of that conversation because they owned R-C-A-R-C-A also was a record label. Uh, and there's a logo. There's a logo, RCA logo and, uh, Brand Nerds go look this up.
The logo is of a, this is the original RCA logo of a phonograph. So think record player phonograph, and it has this thing coming out of it. It, it, it almost looks like a cone, like if you had a traffic cone, it, it, it's gold. It's a beautiful thing. The, this thing was called, this, phonograph, was called the talking machine.
The talking machine. [01:34:00] And there's a dog there. The dog, the dog is nipper. That's the dog's name. Mm-hmm. Nipper. Now brand nerds. A dog is who man's best friend. So you mentioned these two things and then, uh, let's go back to the first, second. I'm looking Jack at your, uh, at your background, and I see off your right shoulder.
My left shoulder on screen Brand Nerds is a typewriter. And I'm talking a old school typewriter. Is, is that a Royal Portable by chance?
Jack Myers: It's an Underwood.
DC: It's an Underwood. Underwood. Underwood, okay. Under Underwood. Underwood, okay. And I'm looking at this thing. Now I'm going, okay, do my tv. Classic piece of equipment.
Old school. Alright, [01:35:00] phonograph, which comes from RC, A old school and then a old school typewriter Underwood. And this is going through my brain. And then on the fourth question where we ask, what are you most proud of? One of the things you said, Hey, you know, I'm looking to the future now. The future now we'd already talked about the future of men, but then you start to get into this sci-fi book that you are writing.
Lon Lon. And it's 150 years into the future. And then it all came together for me, brother. At the end. You also talked about, it's rare that I get to voice my emotions. What's the name of the podcast that you're going to be, that you're doing with, uh, Tim Spangler.
Jack Myers: Lead Human.
DC: [01:36:00] Lead Human Brand Nerds. That's the name of it.
So I believe Jack Myers, that what you are gifting all of us with and have done it for years is this, you are the human bridge between the analog and digital realms, the human bridge between the analog and digital realms.
LT: What do you think, Jack?
Jack Myers: Uh, first of all, I, I turned on a recorder because I wanted to hear your words again after you say them.
And I wanna play it back because, um. I'm blessed, I'm blessed to have this opportunity. As I said, um, you know what I'm proudest of what I'm, what I'm is. That, that what I'm happiest about is that I have these, I'm able to have these conversations, I'm invited into [01:37:00] these conversations. And usually it's about giving.
You don't necessarily expect to get, you know, the, the giving is the get back, the opportunity to share. Uh, but to be able to hear back that not only kind of the path that you, the process that you, you, how you listened and, and how you make me feel like I belong in this conversation. And, and, uh, that, that where the three of us are together and in experience, having one experience together and, you know, we have the advantage of being able to look at each other on Zoom and, um.
It means a lot. I'm blessed. I'm blessed. Thank you. Thank you for that.
LT: You welcome. Well, that's a great mic drop for this conversation. Uh, this has been awesome. We've so enjoyed this Jack and brand nerd. Thanks so much for listening to Brands, beats and Bytes, [01:38:00] the executive producers of Brands, beats and Bytes, our Jeff Shirley, Darryl "DC" Cobbin, Larry Taman, Jade Tate, and Tom Dioro.
If you do like this podcast, please subscribe and share and for those on Apple podcast if you're so inclined. We love those excellent reviews. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we look forward to next time where we will have more insightful and enlightening talk about marketing.