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Life creates many in-between moments.
Whether those in-betweens create grief, sorrow, heartache, or pain, also know that joy, refinement, hope, and transformation are just around the corner.
Dinine Sig wants to accompany you in all of these in-between times–because she herself has seen many. The Space In-
Between is your opportunity to connect, refresh, and renew yourself. Dinine hosts conversations that will carry you through all of life’s significant moments–all of which will help you feel empowered, encouraged, and understood.
Remember, there is magic found in the in-betweens.
The Courage to Seek Help: Jason Barnaby on Men's Mental Health, Medication, and Breaking Silence - Season 2: Episode 1 - Transcript
Dinine: [00:00:00] Hi, friends. You've arrived at the space in between. I'm your host Denine Sig. I'm an attorney, a mom, an author, an entrepreneur, and a widow. You are in the right place if you wanna learn how we will navigate life's transitional moments, both good and not so good. Together we will find the magic and bring the light to anything you are dealing with.
Come sit with us in the space in between. Hi everyone. We are back in the studio and so lucky that we have another session coming up with Jason Barnaby. Yay.
Jason: Yay. So excited to be here.
Dinine: Yay. I am so excited to have you again. And if you remember, Jason is the author of a book called Igniting the Fire Starter Within.
He is a keynote speaker. He is a coach. He is a fractional sales. Coach, I believe
Jason: fractional sales VP is what we say in the [00:01:00] biz
Dinine: fractional sales vp. Let me get that right. It just sounds in the biz. 'cause I'm not in the biz. But um, you know, and he is also my friend and I am really grateful that he is here
Jason: and I'm grateful to be here.
Thanks for having me back.
Dinine: Thank you for being here. Yeah. So today we're gonna talk about mental health and there's obviously, if you're reading anything, listening to anything on the radio, on TV, online, there is an epidemic in this country. Was there before Covid and probably was magnified by 10 post covid.
That has nothing initially to do with Covid, but Covid has everything to do with probably the lack of practitioners in this area. Apparently it's like almost impossible if you have a pediatric need for mental health. But mental health in general is an epidemic in this country, probably globally. Yeah.
And it's something that we need to address, and Jason is someone who has [00:02:00] been pretty open about some of the stuff he's gone through. I, of course, am always open in every discussion that we have. I always throw a little bit of myself into. But to start this off, I guess, Jason, what I'd like you to start with is just when you hear mental health as an epidemic, what's the first thing that comes to your mind, whether about your own struggle or about witnessing other struggles?
Jason: I think for so long it was the thing that so many suffered with and nobody talked about. I see it in my friends. I see it in my family. Right. I, I see it in my immediate family. I don't see it in the older people in my family because of the stigma. I, that's one thing that comes up for sure when I think about mental health is the stigma and because I have been speaking about it openly, more and more and more, I am surprised sometimes, especially 'cause I do a lot of posting and activity on LinkedIn and I'm surprised still the people that jump into the conversation and the comments and say.
This needs to be talked about more. Thank you for saying [00:03:00] what you're saying. 'cause I feel like I'm saying it all the time and I, and because of that, I forget that there still is that stigma. Stigma, especially in the workplace. Do I tell my boss, do I go to HR with this? Do I let my coworkers know? What are they gonna think about me?
Is I gonna affect promotions? Is that. And it shouldn't,
Dinine: I think like a cancer or like Alzheimer's, who I work for, the Alzheimer's Association. I volunteer. I think just bringing awareness is so important, even if we don't have all the answers and what you're doing by talking about it. What I think a lot of people are starting to do, even some celebrities.
Are being really forward about. Mm-hmm. Their struggles. I don't know that it's permeated the working class person. Mm-hmm. Who does have to report to a boss. I don't know that they would have the freedom to say, I'm struggling mentally. I need a couple of weeks off. Right. Um. But I, I hope [00:04:00] that this discussion joins in chorus with other discussions that people are having about mental health and about just being aware about your own struggle and what you need.
And you know, I'll just say for me, I have had things happen throughout my life, and you and I talked about this Yeah. On the Enneagram scale, right? Yeah. That I just kept going, kept going, yeah. Kept going. And then I hit a wall in 2023 that nearly killed me.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: And what I learned. We had discussed this in a prior show that you were on.
My brain wasn't helping me, right? It was rehearsing the bad thing that happened to me over and over. It took months and months for me to have the ability to stand up and say, stop.
Jason: Yeah.
Dinine: I say it now. Whenever things come to me that are. Ugly or negative, or make me feel really down about myself in a way that isn't just temporary.
That could sometimes lead me to three days of not feeling good. I start to say, stop. That's not gonna work for everyone though. And you had a [00:05:00] little bit different path and I don't know, I may still need to incorporate some other modalities to help me, but I know that you have tried a couple of things and maybe you wanna share what led you to that?
I know. Sure. Was doing some, um, studying and Yeah, sort of, so maybe you want to talk about that.
Jason: Yeah. As I mentioned to you before, my wife has always been ahead of the curve, is what I say. She's definitely been ahead of me, most of the, she was the one who found the Enneagram before I did. She recently finished her second master's degree.
She went back later in life to get a master's in therapy to become a mental health therapist. And one of the requirements of the. Program is that she herself had to be in therapy. Like you literally had to, I dunno if you had to show a receipt or what, but you had to prove that you were in therapy. And so as she was going through therapy and.
Realizing the difference it was making in her life in a very non nagging, supportive [00:06:00] way. She would say things like, Hey, I'm getting a lot out of this therapy thing. Maybe you would consider that. And to which I politely and quickly dismissed and said, thank you, I'm good. How many, how many layers can the onion have?
Right? Like, I'm good. Yeah. And as I continued to see her. Develop. And as we were having conversations about things that came up in therapy and as we were talking about those, I got curious. And so one day I was like, okay, I might be interested in going to therapy because I didn't wanna commit. 'cause I'm a dude and I'm not gonna, I'm not just gonna commit.
I gotta, I gotta get all the, get all the things out. Yeah. Right. Figure it all out. So I said, what does that even mean to have a therapist? And I love her answer and I've shared it with many people as I've talked about my therapy journey. She said, in a therapist, you will have somebody who has your back a hundred percent of the time.
And I use this example and I don't say it like I have a, you know, things are terrible, but 'cause they're great, we will have been married for 27 years. I've never had my back. [00:07:00] Congratulations. Thank you by the way. Thank, thank you. No, what
Dinine: anniversary's coming up.
Jason: I've never, I don't have her back a hundred percent of the time.
I would, I would like to, but I'm selfish and I want my own things, and she doesn't have my back a hundred percent of the time. Probably has mine more than I have hers for being honest. Because
Dinine: you're people, right? You're real people. Because we're people with,
Jason: you know, with desires and wants and, and agendas and things that we want do
Dinine: sometimes conflicting,
Jason: very much so.
Right. And so I was like, okay, I'll go How many, how many layers can the onion have? Right? Like, let's just, let's give this a shot. Well, it turns out the onion has a lot of layers and many of them made me cry as we, uh, started peeling them back and. What has been super helpful? Well, there have been a lot of things, but I'll, I'll list a few for, if there's somebody listening who's like, well, maybe I wanna go to therapy.
Jason said he's gone to therapy. The first thing I'll say is, my biggest regret is that I didn't start 30 years ago.
Dinine: I remember you telling me that
Jason: because I would've been a better husband. I would've been a better dad. I [00:08:00] would've been a better employee. I would've been a better community member. And not that I was a bad one.
Right.
Dinine: You just would've been a better version of yourself. I would, I would've
Jason: understood more about how I work and how I tick and what I do and, and, and the things that are informing my behaviors in today. Because a lot of what, what I've learned from me in therapy is a lot of the things that are informing the way that I behave.
Are things that I've been carrying around with me for a lot of years and sometimes like literally decades. And this doesn't mean that everybody's gotta go back to their childhood wound and dig up all the past and talk about all the terrible things and. Maybe you do.
Dinine: So I have recently started seeing a, like someone who specializes in trauma.
Mm-hmm. Because I went through an event and last year that you're well aware of. Yeah. That caused me insane obscene amounts of trauma. Right. And I kept putting it off and saying, I should [00:09:00] just be able to get through this. I should just be able to move forward. I've. Lost my husband. I've lost my brother, had my house go up in a fire.
This is, why can't I? And I just couldn't. And in seeing this person that specializes in trauma, she did ask me to do a list of the very first trauma I believe I sustained. Mm-hmm. Up until encountering the person that caused the trauma last year. Sure. I wrote my first trauma on there and I got angry. Mm.
And I. Stopped. Mm. And I had friends encouraging me and I brought it back into her and I said, what's the point of writing down this trauma? And then another eight or 10 that might have happened to me if I was able to get through all of them. Oh yeah. But I can't get through this one. Mm-hmm. And she didn't push me.
I was kind of pushing 'cause I wanted her to give me some answers. Sure she did not. She just said, okay, Denine, if that's not where you wanna be right now, it will probably help you when you're willing to [00:10:00] list some of the traumas that have happened to you. But let's just pick up where we left off last week and leave that.
So I agree with you. Sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. A lot of my friends have said, if you're seeing someone for this specific reason, you probably should do what she's saying because she probably knows what she's doing
Jason: at, at least better than we do. Right, right,
Dinine: right. But I got so angry just writing down one.
Right. I literally had one and a period and I wrote it. It was like a fight with my mom. Mm-hmm. When I was in high school and. I was like, why does this matter? So I think finding a therapist you can trust, right? Yes. Because even though I was angry, I was trustful enough to show back up Sure. And say to her, and so we picked up wherever.
But I think when we're thinking about writing down, or like you said, going back to childhood, some people just might need that. I don't know that it's childhood, it's more like teenage to twenties. But when you were engaging in this, I remember you talking about [00:11:00] considering possibly medication. Mm-hmm. I know there's a stigma with that still.
Sure. I know the stigma has come down quite a bit in this country. Right. But there's still a stigma with medication. There's still a stigma with other therapies. Um, but people are interested. Mm-hmm. Um, I had someone on, um, Jeff Murray, who he has done love
Jason: that episode, by the way. Thank you. Thank you.
Dinine: Um, he has done sil
Jason: Yeah.
Dinine: Therapy. He's done E mdr r Mm. Which he suggested to me highly.
Jason: I've heard multiple people who have been in trauma who have said that EMDR has very, has helped them tremendously
Dinine: and I'm, I'm looking forward to getting to that spot where I do that. But for you and for thinking about how you're confronting the stigma, which I applaud you for.
Thank you. I read your articles on LinkedIn and I look at your Instagram posts and, um, videos. Sometimes when you. Post them there. How do we combat the stigma? Because I want to throw a statistic at you.
Jason: Yeah.
Dinine: Over 6 million men in this country. 'cause [00:12:00] we're focusing on Right. Mental health. Mostly men's, for this conversation, 6 million men suffer from depression.
Mm-hmm. In this country. Mm-hmm. 40% of men will not talk about mental health at all. Mm-hmm. And 35% of men think that they have had a diagnosable mental health condition, but did not seek help. Hmm. Even answering this poll saying they believe they were diagnosable, those are. Some tough statistics to be a man right now in the United States and to have to deal with that on top of it, because women are more likely to seek help.
Women are more, less likely to harm themselves, although I think that might be different in the teenage years. We can maybe touch on that basic, uh, later, but what do you think when you hear those statistics, what do you think about your own struggle?
Jason: I ma it makes perfect sense. I was, I was, I grew up in the seventies and the eighties, and I can tell you.
Crazy was a word,
Dinine: right? When someone needed, yeah, well, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:13:00] If someone was in the neighborhood that wasn't right, it was like they're, they're crazy. Their mom's crazy. Stay away from that house. Or, you know, but maybe that woman was just having postpartum depression and Right. Nobody understood it with my first, I believe I had it, and I remember going, why do I want to?
Hurt myself after. Mm-hmm. Like my husband goes to work in the morning. Right. Like, I didn't, I just thought snap out of it, Denine, snap out of it. Sure. It was pretty bad. So when the second one came, we went and saw somebody. Mm. And she said, you know, you probably had it, and it's really important that we watch you, that you don't.
Have postpartum again with your second, but we're not talking a long time ago. Right. You know, and, um, I hope women who are having babies now have way more support for postpartum. Yeah. Because I can't even say a hundred percent that I had it, just that it seemed like I had all the symptoms. Right. Didn't want to hurt the baby.
I wanted to hurt myself and didn't really understand why.
Jason: Right. So I think part of the stigma around that [00:14:00] is I was brought up in a way. That you're a dude, you don't ask for help. You figure it out. Right. You right. Like and, and something that you said at the beginning was interesting to me. When you were writing down on that list that she told you to write down, you wrote it down and you were angry.
Dinine: Yeah,
Jason: and I just had an epiphany about three months ago with my 16-year-old daughter because in my house and, and in the way that I grew up. And I grew up with a brother, so it was three men in the home and my mom. And we were not allowed to be sad. We were allowed to be angry. And that was the pervasive, like if there was an emotion in the home, it was anger and it was usually explosive anger.
So that was modeled and like the explosion, and then dad was fine. We weren't right. And then. Sometimes he would say, sorry, not till later in life when I think back to it, and I had a situation with my daughter where I just, I lost my, I lost my temper and, and I felt like [00:15:00] immediately after like the explosion, I felt bad.
And I said that, I'm sorry, and she said, you can't just come and say you're sorry and think that everything's gonna be okay. Like, because I'm still affected by the explosion.
Dinine: She's still processing it. Yeah. Yeah.
Jason: And, and I really appreciated that and it got me to thinking and, and I thought back to when I was a kid, if we fell down, stop crying.
Yeah. Get up. Yeah, wipe it off. Rub some dirt in it.
Dinine: Did, did you ever hear, stop crying or I'll give you something Oh, to cry about? Yeah. Yeah.
Jason: That was, I mean, if they didn't say it, I heard it in my head because I had heard it already so many times. You want something to cry about it, give you something to cry about.
Um, and what's very interesting, I don't know if you've ever looked at this, but if you look at a feelings wheel, have you ever seen a feelings wheel? I have,
Dinine: it's,
Jason: I'm not entirely So a very close cousin to anger is sadness. Yes. On the feeling wheel.
Dinine: Yes. That I've seen.
Jason: And so I honestly like, and this happened, I wasn't planning to talk about this, but this happened today.
I, I dropped my daughter off at [00:16:00] school when I pulled out. I came over into the other lane for like, I don't know. A second, a second, a second. And it was one of those things like I, I think when I came out, I overturned and then, so then, you know, I did it for a couple seconds and then I moved back in. Guy coming down the other way in a pickup truck, and it's during the day, but he still turns his lights on and his brights and he's flicking his lights at me.
And as he passes me, he's giving me the finger. Oh. And I literally, I'm, I laughed. I'm like, why are you so angry? And. You know, I think there's so many men that are so angry because we weren't allowed to be sad when we were kids, and I think that's why there's so much road rage. I think that's why there's so much domestic violence, because I honestly think that a lot of that is masked sadness.
Dinine: I, I agree. My mom was a firm believer in a smack across, mm-hmm. The face. Mm-hmm. Or a smack in your butt. Mm-hmm. And all the research I read says all that does is create much [00:17:00] more aggressive children. And so my husband was also brought up, but in a very strict way. Mm-hmm. He had, uh, Asian parents that believed in discipline with a capital D.
Yeah. Yeah. Right. And so when we first had coal. Cole did something and my husband went to go sort of smack his hand and I just said, we're not heading, like, it wasn't even something we had discussed. Right? But I said, you know, my brother and I, we had no fear of physical altercations. I can remember being angry about noise, and there were 15.
Motorcycle guys. And I walked over to them and I was like, you guys better shut the F up right now because, and they were like looking at me like, who is this girl? And one of them came over to me and he had a baseball hat on. And I remember I flicked his hat off and I was like, you better get the step in.
You better. And he, they were all just looking at me. It could have been so much worse. Oh yeah. But I don't have a lot of fear. Of my personal [00:18:00] safety.
Jason: Mm-hmm.
Dinine: In a confrontational way. Sure. If I'm alone in bed at night and I hear a sound at four in the morning, that's a different, a little different. That's a little different.
But if I am walking down the street and somebody approaches me, my first thought is, I will effing kill you. Do you know what I mean? And it's not, it's not a good thing. And I've gotten more mellow when I lived in New York City. I was on all the time. Yeah, I bet. And I.
Jason: You know, I think some, in some ways you kind of have to be
Dinine: Yeah.
And in some ways I could just meander, but sometimes I couldn't. There were some people that didn't have mental health and they were also homeless and they were also very aggressive. And, um, you know, I'd have a stroller with me and I'd be like, I'm, I'm gonna send you home in a body bag, bitch if you don't step back.
Like, I would say stuff that I just, I don't know that I could have ever backed up. Right. But I was just,
Jason: you're hoping that the words just what they need to, but what I'm
Dinine: saying is like, I didn't have a fear and I think it's because I got. Hit maybe not even a lot. My dad refused. In most households especially, especially Italian [00:19:00] American households, it's the dad.
Mm-hmm. My dad refused to touch any of us. Mm. I think one time he got mad at my brother probably for coming at me. Mm-hmm. And my brother got got whooped. But that was the one and only time. Yeah. And my mom was like a big believer in, and I think there's a humiliation that goes with being smacked.
Absolutely. And I think that there's, um. It builds these aggression. Or in my sister's case, she was very much an avoidant. She didn't wanna deal with anything bad. Me and my brother were ready to like crush down on people mm-hmm. With like hammers and she was like running off. So I think those two things, and neither one is good.
You've, no, you've got, so I don't know if you got hit. A lot or not, but I think that also creates aggression.
Jason: We had a, a wooden spoon in our house. That was the instrument of choice, and I think when I was 11, and only because it had been through the dishwasher, not because of the, the force with which it was being used, it broke on [00:20:00] me.
And that was the last time, um, the
Dinine: parent that was using it got pissed at you because the spoon
Jason: broke. Well, no, they were pissed at me for something and then they, no, but I
Dinine: mean, they got pissed because while they were trying to discipline you. Right, right. Then they were like, look what you made me do.
Yeah,
Jason: yeah. All, all that. And I mean, not much. I, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times that that happened, but going back to that, creating aggression. Yeah. Well, and the, the stigma around like, I mean, how many times. It's a song too. I mean, it's for girls, but big girls don't cry, right? Yeah.
Like you're bigger than that. You're because, oh, my mom
Dinine: was always like, stop crying. Yeah. You have nothing. You don't have a mortgage. Yeah. You have nothing to, yeah, like, but you just took away my, I just mortgage, but you just took away my Barbie dolls. What do you mean? I don't have a mortgage? I don't know what that means.
Do you know what I'm saying? Like, of course I'm gonna cry. Skipper needs to go to.
Jason: So part of that stigma is I think, one, we weren't encouraged to feel the feels true. Two in,
Dinine: at least in [00:21:00] my house. In your house. Well, and I, I just think, I, I mean, you think generationally Well, I,
Jason: I mean, yes, because you know, my kids, my younger kids have both been in therapy now, partly because we have gone and.
I think that's something different. But you know, we, we also grew up, I don't know if this happened in the state that you grew up in. I don't know if it was a national thing, but here in Indiana, when I was a kid after the news, there was a recording that said it's 10 o'clock. Yes. Parents, our parents had to be reminded that they had children.
It's 10 o'clock. Do
Dinine: you know, know where your kids are? Do you where your children are? Yeah. I mean, it was every night. If I was allowed to even be up. Are you, are you kidding me? I always wondered about like, why did someone think that they needed to put, put this on? Of course my mom knows where I am, but like maybe well,
Jason: but also at the same time, like.
Most of the time my parents knew I was out. No, but I'm talking they didn't know I was five. Well, I mean, even at night though, sometimes.
Dinine: Okay. Oh, I was never really [00:22:00] allowed to be out that late. Yeah. But um, growing up during the day, they had no idea where we were and they had no idea what we were doing.
And
Jason: Yeah. And, and quite frankly, I don't think they were interested. Yeah. As long as we weren't home, that's what they cared. Yes. Like if you showed up in my house before five o'clock, my mom was like. Go back out. Is one of your legs Yes. In Snapped in half. Are you? That's
Dinine: so funny. Indiana and Long Island.
But yet we have very similar, it's,
Jason: so that's another piece. So I don't think we were encouraged to feel the feels. I don't think, I don't think our parents were at all in touch with their feelings either. I mean, because they, what? Did they watch a generation of parents who had gone through the war and depression?
Dinine: Yes. Who? Yes.
Jason: Who be thankful for everything that you have. Yes.
Dinine: Oh my gosh. The food, right? Like my mom talks about the food. Yeah. I mean, how
Jason: many times did, were you told about the starving kids in Africa? Yes. And that you needed to clean your plate? To this day, I'm 53 years old and I have a very hard time throwing away food, even if I'm stuffed.
Dinine: I finally broke that habit oh, probably six or [00:23:00] seven years ago because I was like, this isn't helping anyone. No. Me eating stuff. That's no. So it was. Maybe even longer than seven years ago. But yeah, I, I agree with you. That was a dumb thing to teach us. Oh, it was terrible. Terrible. Along with, um, you know, like you said, letting us go without the, without the, the knowledge of what we were up to, which could have caused more trauma for some people.
Luckily for me, I had an older brother. He was always somewhere around, somewhere before. Mm-hmm. He's no longer with us, but, um, but I was pretty protected in that sense. But, you know, other kids, maybe they were just single kids. One, one kid in the family and they're out all day and the mom has no idea and doesn't wanna know.
Right. And then if you come home and you talk about something, the mom's. Trying to put dinner on the table. She didn't wanna hear it. Wash your hands. Right. You know what I mean? And then you're gonna help me. You'll be
Jason: fine. Yeah, you'll be fine. You know, rub some dirt on it, wash it off, whatever it is.
That's another thing. And then the, and then the other thing is, I think specifically [00:24:00] for men, we're supposed to know how to figure things out. That's just, that's just one of the, one of the things that, what do you mean you don't know how to figure this out? You got like, you're a guy, you know how to figure it out.
And so I think because of that. It's a pretty terribly closed cycle. You have a problem. You think you should, you're, you're socialized to believe that you should be able to figure it out. You can't, so you beat yourself up about the fact that you can't figure it out, which makes it harder to go and try to figure it out.
And then going back to this idea of comparison, you look around and you feel like, well, they've got it figured out and again. Nobody has it figured out. Right. That's the big myth. Like if you're listening to this and you think like, well, everybody's got, nobody has it figured out. We're all really, really good actors and we're really good at putting on the brave face and stuffing it and, and playing along or doing whatever.
And so for that reason, especially I think for men, it's very [00:25:00] hard to ask for help because so much of the figureoutable ness. Is connected to our self-esteem and our image. And when we can't, that means somehow that we're less than, that we're broken in some way. And that's something that I wanna, I wanna make sure that I say.
So when I did go to therapy, it was not because I was broken and in pieces and needed somebody to put me back together. It wasn't that I, I wasn't in this awful, terrible, yeah. Scary, scary place and I still needed somebody to talk to, even though I wasn't broken into a million pieces. It was helpful. They have a different perspective.
They have tools like writing these things down and let's walk through this. Yeah. Because we've talked about fear. They knew, they know what's on the other side.
Dinine: Yeah.
Jason: And they're also patient enough to say, if you don't wanna do this now, that's fine. And so for me, it just, I, I went to therapy, but I didn't even tell my therapist about some of the stuff that was going on with me because I should know how to [00:26:00] figure this out.
I should be able to work through it. I should be able to push. I've al I'm, I've always been a doer. I've always like, and I know that I can do things on my own. Yeah. And so why can't I figure this out? And because our brains don't have the best in store for us, I don't think. And especially with the personality type that I know we both have.
We also don't pay attention to the shadow side of things as much as we should because we're always distracted by the shiny things, and we run around and look at all the different shiny things while in the shadows there's this pile of shit that is just growing larger and larger and larger and larger until you eventually.
Deal with it, and mine was 49 years of piling until I finally looked at it.
Dinine: Wow. Yeah,
just as an opposite perspective, I didn't think. I wasn't dealing with. I thought, okay, I dealt with that. Mm-hmm. Okay. I dealt with that. Okay. I dealt with that. Like in my mind, that's where [00:27:00] I got.
Jason: Mm-hmm. And
Dinine: then I was like, oh, okay. You know, things are good. And then they weren't. And then the shock to my system was.
Shocking. Does that sound right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The shock to my system shocked, even me, right? And I was like, what is wrong with you? And I had friends going, this isn't you. Hmm. You are deneen. Hear her roar. Right? You're deneen mother, effing, ello, you know, different things. That was my brother used to say to me all the time.
You're ine motherfucking Cinderella. Don't let that person do that like instantly. Right. He would instantly say it to me.
Jason: You flicked the ball cap off of a biker.
Dinine: I'm just kidding. Kneehigh to a, I don't think kneehigh to a Harley. I don't think my brother would've been happy for me to, he wasn't there that night.
But yeah, I. I, I think that I just kept saying, what's wrong with you? What's wrong with you? And I think, um, I was in pieces. I didn't just see a trauma specialist. I went and [00:28:00] spoke with, um, a man of the cloth because he would post things on Facebook that just started grabbing my soul. Mm-hmm. Sometimes biblical.
Sure. Sometimes just quotes by famous people like Marcus Aurelius. And I reached out to him and said, can I come and talk to you? I don't know if I make a donation 'cause I'm not really part of the Catholic church as much anymore. Mm-hmm. And he was like, no, just come in. And we sat there and he understood the mm-hmm.
The angst, which was nice. But again, it was me reaching out. Mm-hmm. It was, my friends just kept saying, what is wrong with you? Like. This isn't you, this isn't you. This person is nothing. Mm-hmm. Like what is wrong with you? And I just, I think like other people have said, like that man of the cloth, like you, because I'm an Enneagram seven and you recognize that in me and like the trauma therapist, there's only so much trauma that you can pile up.
You called it ish before. Right? Right. There's only so much of that you can pile up and get through. So I guess. [00:29:00] When we think about men, and maybe I've had more of a male presentation in that I've gotten through quite a bit and I really haven't felt the need to have a lot of help and now I'm recognizing mm-hmm.
That when she told me as a trauma specialist, you belong in this office. 'cause I was like, do I really? Mm-hmm. Is this really trauma? I don't, I don't,
Jason: I I've got some things. Yeah. But it's not trauma.
Dinine: I really thought she might say, you don't belong here. Like. 'cause I said, I don't wanna use up resources even though I'm paying for it.
You know your time if someone, and she was like, oh no, Deneen like you. No. Yeah. What you eng what you, what happened to you? What, what someone did to you is a betrayal. Trauma. You know? And just hearing that, and if you're listening and there's someone out there who is wondering. Just her telling me, and maybe this happened to you mm-hmm.
When you started, um, just her telling me, no, this is what that is. Mm-hmm. And you are not weak. You are processing [00:30:00] something really, really, really effed up.
Jason: Right. Well, and what's interesting in, in my particular situation over the last couple of years, my wife would, and she actually asked me about this the other day.
She said, you know, I see some of your posts and you're talking about this. She goes, do you not remember us having. The conversation about you potentially being depressed, and I was like, Nope. I wasn't hearing it. I just, I, I just simply was. You
Dinine: didn't have ears for it. I didn't, it was being said. It was totally
Jason: being said.
And so when I went to my primary care doctor last fall. This is kind of interesting. So I went last fall, and she has you and, and this is another reason I think it's more prevalent because now at least I know every time I go see my primary care doctor, there's a form that says for anxiety and depression.
Dinine: Right. And that really, I remember you telling me that. That really helped you. It did. When she said, yeah. 'cause she, I don't wanna say your story, but Yeah. She
Jason: looked at it and she goes, this isn't good. Well, here's what's interesting. She said that to me last October. And I don't remember what she [00:31:00] said after that because I don't think I had ears to hear it even then.
And so when I came back for the follow-up in January of this year, you know, the nurse is asking me, you know, are, is this still true? Is this still happening? And she said, are you still taking Wellbutrin? I. And I was like, coming again. She's like, are you taking Wellbutrin? And I said, I've never been taking Wellbutrin.
She's like, well, the doctor prescribed it last October. And I was like, I remember you
Dinine: telling
Jason: me this story. I didn't, I didn't hear that. And so we have a pretty, uh, my doctor and I have a pretty good relationship, so, and she said. Also a fiery little Italian lady. And she came in and she said, um, she was like, um, can we talk about the fact that you did not take your Wellbutrin, uh, starting last October when you saw me?
And I was like, um, I don't remember you telling me that I had a prescription for it. And she goes, well, um, I did. And she said, and now I wanna look at your, you know, your, 'cause she had me do the survey again, right? And she looked at it and that's when she's like, she's like, Jason, you're depressed. And she said, I don't even really feel [00:32:00] comfortable.
With letting you go from here today, unless I know that you are 100% gonna go straight to the pharmacy and get this prescription filled. I did have ears to listen and I said, okay, I will do that. And so I took, the first dose was on a Friday. The second dose was Saturday and the third was Sunday. So I took the third dose on Sunday.
We keep it down in the kitchen. I made coffee, took the dose, drank my coffee, and I went back upstairs, Denine, and I literally, I looked in the mirror and out loud, I said, oh, there you are.
Dinine: Wow.
Jason: It's nice to see you again.
Dinine: Wow. I remember a piece of this conversation, but not this.
Jason: And, um, wow. You know, I know for, for several people that.
Like I was talking to somebody and they're like, it took my daughter like two years to find the right Yes. Medicine and the right dosage. I'm very fortunate that it didn't take me that long. And as I look back, and this is the, this is the hard part for me is I spent [00:33:00] from January of this year going backwards two and a half years walking around in the smoke.
Like if I'm, if I'm being totally honest, like, and people would say to me. You didn't look it
Dinine: right, because this is one of the things we wanted, I wanted to hit on with you today. Mm-hmm. You are someone that fires people up. Yeah. And you have that ability to bring, and I could see some tears in your eyes too as you're coming.
To, I guess the, you're viscerally remembering that, that moment in the mirror with your coffee. Yeah. And um, but you're a person that is always on brand most of the time. Yeah. At least when I see you. Yeah. Right. I don't live with you, so I don't know. But you fire people up, you're an inspirer. Mm-hmm. You are a fire upper.
Mm-hmm. You are an encourager. A connector. Mm-hmm. And so what did you say to me? How could that guy, I don't wanna say it for you, but it was something like, how could that guy be depressed?
Jason: Yeah.
Dinine: For two and a half years.
Jason: And [00:34:00] again, because I'm brought up and socialized in a way that I should, and I tell people in my coaching, I'm like, don't shit on yourself and don't shit on other people.
Like, yes, don't shit. Don't, don't do that. But in my head I was like, well, I. I should be able to figure this out. I'm telling other people things that they need to do. Yeah. One, you're a hypocrite. Like how can you tell people that if you can't do it yourself? And two, how does that even happen? Like, and then the other part goes straight to this.
Mindset of scarcity that I was also walking in, in those two and a half years of like, who's gonna hire a depressed motivational speaker? Right. Let's bring in the depressed guy to get everybody fired up.
Dinine: Right,
Jason: right,
Dinine: right. But I mean, and I don't wanna say to your benefit because I don't wanna encourage other men out there who need help to keep, but you didn't show it because you have an ability to, I think most of us do, to put on a mask.
Oh, 100%. Or to put on our positive face. There were nights during my really low points that I still went out [00:35:00] and people thought I was the bell of the ball that night and I had fun and I knew words to songs. So when we think about that and you think about someone who might be listening now who is like. I think I might be depressed, or I think I might mm-hmm.
Need some help. What's something encouraging that you wish someone had said to you back two and a half years ago, and I know your wife did try. Mm-hmm. So I'm not, I'm not faulting anyone. Yeah, yeah. I'm just, let's speak to the person who's listening, going, Hey, I might have a little bit of what Denine had or what Jason has.
Jason: I would say that it's super important to go talk to somebody who knows more than you do. So if it's a therapist, if it's your primary care physician, guys in general, don't like to go to the doctor, right? Go and allow them to ask you some uncomfortable questions. Because when you look at those statistics that you shared, and one of the other reasons that I've read that men are more successful with suicide is because the methods that we choose.
Dinine: So let me [00:36:00] just, that was my last statistic I wanted. So it's interesting you brought that up. The suicide rate in males is four times higher than females. 23 per a hundred thousand versus six per a hundred thousand. So when they go to do it. They
Jason: don't mess
Dinine: around, right? And so that's a really scary statistic.
So again, if we have someone listening, um, whether you're a male or a female, I mean, I've talked about that. I had a really big struggle in 23. So even though a lot of this conversation is focusing on men's mental health, what do we wanna say to someone who's. Listening to both of us and going, I might need some help besides go to someone.
Is it, when you think about your tribe, right, as we discussed in a prior show, do you go to your devil's advocate because they're gonna be the most honest or are they gonna be the most least likely to help you? I would would probably say
Jason: not. Because they, they see things in such black and [00:37:00] white ways they're not gonna help you.
That it's, I will say that one of the things that has helped me tremendously, and it's funny that we are talking about tribes, so there's, there's a group that I've helped get off the ground, become kind of a, a core member with, that happens a lot. Like, we do a lot of reach out through LinkedIn and it's called Iron Tribe.
Dinine: I've seen it on LinkedIn.
Jason: It's, it's incredible. There are. Typically anywhere from 15 to 20 men. We are from all over the country. We get together on Wednesdays at 12 East, from 12 Eastern to one o'clock. It's a Zoom call. Um, if you are a LinkedIn person, go search for iron Tribe. All is one word, and it will show up and there will be a link.
We started it as a non-profit, so you can do 14 days, try it out, and after that, if you wanna pay for it, it's 10 bucks a month.
Dinine: That's, that's a, that's quite a. I don't even wanna use the word bargain 'cause that I don't wanna cheapen it. That's a gift. That's a gift. That's like an honorarium. Yeah. A small honorarium.
You're paying. And really part of what that's going
Jason: to is [00:38:00] 'cause we, the platform that we've built this community on is called Mighty Networks. And so the money goes to pay for that. And any money that is left over, I think we're gonna do it on a quarterly basis. We'll go to some charity. So we're nobody's making money on this thing.
And what I will tell you is even this week. No. Last week I had a really tough. A business situation that was going on. Money was like super tight and I was super stressed. And we, we talk about a topic and then we go into breakout rooms and everybody who is there in this group is open to talking about struggles and things that they're dealing with.
And these two guys that were in my breakout room, I happened to know pretty well. It doesn't always happen that way. And so I was just very open and I, I lost my shit, like I was crying. It was ugly crying. It was not. It was, and, and I didn't, I, I wasn't like, I'm gonna go to Iron Tribe and like bear my soul.
Dinine: Right. You didn't know. You didn't. No, I was gonna
Jason: go share. I mean, I was gonna be honest, but I wasn't gonna be that [00:39:00] honest. And so I started sharing and these two guys didn't try to fix it. They held space. They're like, dude, I've been there. It sucks. It will pass. That doesn't help you right now, but know that we've been there.
We are here for you. Tell us what you need. They checked up on me later that night, after that was over. And to me, and I've experienced this in a lot of, in, in a lot of like corporate settings where we do team building. 'cause I, I use the Enneagram and we go deep in team building and we do this feedback exercise and we talk about our what if abouts and.
And these people have you, you share that stuff around the table. 'cause we don't normally share that. Guys don't share this sort of stuff. And by the way, we're not kumbayaing around some like, you know, campfire or anything. It's just guys coming together to challenge each other and grow. But I hear people when somebody says, this is what I'm dealing with.
It is like the first [00:40:00] domino. And it is the opening of the door for other people to walk through the door and you hear from other people around the table or in the zoom room. Dude, me too. And there was nothing more. I think that's why the Me Too movement was so powerful.
Dinine: I was gonna say, that's a powerful statement.
It's an incredibly powerful statement. Just me too.
Jason: And I think be, because what happened in that original movement was a lot of people who thought that they were the only ones who had suffered with this. Yeah. Were like, I'm done suffering in silence. And, and, and in essence, that's what we're doing by showing up to this thing and just saying, you know, some days, some weeks I'm gonna have a hard week and I'm gonna need the support, and some weeks I'm gonna be here to give the support.
And we are. There are 10 of us who are going to Chicago in four weeks, and I've only met three of them. Face to face. That's amazing. But I know these guys because of the focus and the depth of the conversations that we're having. So if there's anybody who's listening to this, please come. Just come join us.
You don't have to [00:41:00] talk. You can just come and say, I just wanna be here to check it out. But on the
Dinine: Zoom or in Chicago? Yeah, on the
Jason: Zoom. Just on the Zoom, yeah.
Dinine: Is it now Iron tribe.com? If someone's not on LinkedIn, it's
Jason: not iron tribe.com. You have, I think if you, um, you can go to, 'cause it's on Mighty Network, so you can go to mighty networks.com and search there for Iron Tribe and it will take you there.
Dinine: Or you can go to LinkedIn. Or you can go to LinkedIn and I'll try to have something in the show notes.
Jason: Yeah, we can have a link that goes straight to the Yeah, if you
Dinine: want that. And I mean, $10. And a month that's like two cups of coffee.
Jason: Well, and if you pay for the whole year up front, it's only a hundred bucks.
So you save 20. Yeah.
Dinine: So it's like one and a half cups of coffee. Right. I think we can all do that, right? Um, most of us. I don't wanna Yeah. Right. Make any, um, but um, it's a wonderful resource for you to offer it on behalf of the Iron Tribe. I'm assuming it's just for men. It's just men. Yeah. So any man that's listening who feels like they would like that kind of support or knows they need that kind of support or isn't even sure.
Right. Give it a try [00:42:00] and see if that support feels good to you.
Jason: And I, and I even wanna say this, if, if you're listening and I'll put my information, we'll put my information down the show notes if, if you don't wanna show up to a group of men, but you want somebody to talk to and don't feel like you have anybody to talk to.
Dinine: Call Jason.
Jason: I'll, I'll put my information down there. I'm serious. Yeah. I If and if I don't answer, leave me a, leave me a message. I do a lot of business on the phone, so I don't always answer, but. Leave me a message, send me a direct message on any of the social medias that I'm on. I will respond. You are not alone.
And that is one of the, I think that's the biggest stigma that we have to overcome, that we're the only ones who are dealing with it. Because the shame that comes from not being able to figure it out just grows, which. Deepens the depression, which deepens the shame, and you wind up crawling in a hole to decorate.
Dinine: To decorate. That's right. So on that note, if you've listened to the whole show and you feel like you wanna, you know, take Jason up on his offer, [00:43:00] either reach out to him personally or look into Iron Tribe on Mighty networks.com, or LinkedIn is Iron Tribe or mm-hmm. Jason Barnaby. Um, if you're a woman and you're listening, I will try to have some resources in the show notes as well.
I don't know of a group as amazing as Iron Tribe. That would only be $10 a month, but I, yeah, maybe I could start one. But, um, reach out on dene sig.com. There's a comment section and let me know if you're still looking for resources and we'll try to get you with someone. Or
Jason: maybe somebody has an awesome resource out there that they can, yeah.
Let you know about it.
Dinine: If they have an awesome resource, then please either on, this will be on Instagram and TikTok, and I'm also on LinkedIn and INE sig.com. But I hope that today, sitting on the space in between with us, that you got something out of this and that maybe it helps you identify within yourself or within someone you love who [00:44:00] might need help.
And Jason Barnaby. I am so thankful, grateful, as well. Thank you that you came and sat with us again. Absolutely. My pleasure. And, uh, can't wait to find another topic to rope him into. I'm sure we can find some. All right. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you so much for joining me today. Remember that even in your worst days, there is always something beautiful.
You just need to look for it. Until next time.