5. Learner Centered Focus (Guest Hosted by Amber Dietz)

We sit down to discuss learner agency with Dr. Katie Martin, author of Learner-Centered Innovation and Evolving Education. Dr. Martin serves as the Chief Impact Officer of Learning at Learner-Centered Collaborative.

What is Learner Agency?

Discussions around the importance of Learner Agency in the educational process.

Beth Strike (00:08):
Okay, welcome everyone. So, welcome to the Central Rivers AEA Learning on Demand podcast. I'm Beth Strike and I'm the director of creative services, and communication. And most importantly, I'm a mom. I'm a lover of innovation in our schools. I'm here today with Amber Dietz, who is a regional administrator with Central Rivers. Welcome Amber.

Amber Dietz (00:28):
Thank you.

Beth Strike (00:28):
Also a mom, and a member of our future ready team here at the agency. So Amber is stepping in for Jen Sigrist today. So, welcome again. And then of course our special guest is Katie Martin. Dr. Katie Martin. Welcome.

Dr. Katie Martin (00:41):
Glad to be here.

Beth Strike (00:42):
Yeah, you are a leading thinker and innovator in the area of future ready practices. You've written a book, you just knocked it out of the park this morning when you were with our superintendents. And so we are just delighted to have you here today and just get to pick your brain and...

Dr. Katie Martin (00:57):
Glad to be here. Thank you.

Beth Strike (00:59):
Awesome. We're also doing something a little different today. We are actually doing a live podcast, so we're doing this recording for our learning management system content, but we're doing it live, which means we've got an audience out there. And we hope that as you have questions that you will put those in the chat, and we will share those with Katie and have a great conversation. So, Amber, I'm going to let you do a lot of the talking, and I know you have lots of questions, so why don't we dig right into those and you can take us away.

Amber Dietz (01:29):
Perfect. Well, welcome Katie. And I was lucky enough to hear you this morning. So I will reference back a little bit to things that I heard this morning, because today was my first time getting a chance to hear what you're bringing to the table for people to talk about in education. But one of the questions that you posed that... Your example was middle school students, like don't know how to answer the question. What are you interested in? Because we don't create space for kids to necessarily even think about it. The interesting part at the table, I was sitting at, as we were thinking, oh my gosh, as adults, like we had to stop for a minute to think what are we most interested in? So, thinking about your kids more, even your family right now in 2022, what would be the things that you're most interested in as a family?

Dr. Katie Martin (02:21):
Oh, that's a great question. Well, I'll say my mom turned the tables on me and used those questions for my birthday. She's like, "Let's have you answer all these questions." I was like, no mom. I asked those people, other people get these questions and it was fascinating. But as a family, I would say we really love to travel. So, doing things, exploring new places has been something that's something that our family has really enjoyed and grown from. Soccer is big in the family. We spent our last couple years, weekends, on the soccer field and my kid, my daughter's a goalie. My son plays midfield, and it's just been fun to see them grow and do that. And then go to the beach, hiking. Those are things that we really enjoy, enjoy doing as a family and me in particular, I'd love... Anytime I can find a sunset. I'm a happy girl.

Amber Dietz (03:17):
So, I was just at a meeting not very long ago where we were talking about a third grade student who was really interested, has not done well in typical third grade settings, has really struggled, but has a definite interest in motors. So if you were to like connect with that teacher, who's bring to the table like, "Hey, this third grader's really struggling, but we do know this about that student." How do we start having those conversations of like, how can we incorporate that into what his school day looks like?

Dr. Katie Martin (03:52):
Yeah, great question. I think it is really important we learn how to do those projects through reading and collaborating. So a few things I would say would be, are there mentors in the community who could connect with this child, and show them and help them use their talents? Finding articles, or podcasts or videos to watch based on some of those interests. And then also just like inquiry projects, like what could they make? So there's there's time in the day sometimes where if you get through these couple of projects or read some of these assignments, of course it's better if it's based on things that kids are interested in, but we could also have time for you to make something that you're...
Use that interest, use that, motive, and teach other people in the classroom. That's a really motivating place. Sometimes kids don't feel like they belong. They don't see their talents being recognized. So I had a high school teacher actually tell me that she started to do a show and tell with her high school students, which you typically could think of like kindergarten and these kids were so excited. They were gaining their communication skills. They were gaining confidence. So I love when kids can teach other kids about something they're interested in.

Amber Dietz (05:10):
And that actually leads to another question about, because speaking, and listening has become much more important in our world, and thinking that at one time writing was the number one thing that employers were looking for and it has gone down the list, but our system hasn't necessarily changed fast enough, to kind of meet that. So thinking about this student, the third grader who really likes motors. He has a right writing goal and we're still really prioritizing writing. Not that it's not an important skill, but I think there's a lot of conversation happening about where do you think that's going to fit even 10 years from now, or where it fits now, because of how we have access to voice to text. We, as adults, we don't, I haven't held a pencil, and written a paragraph with capitals and punctuation for quite some time. But we're still doing that in schools quite a bit. And how do you see that changing or evolving over time?

Dr. Katie Martin (06:16):
Yeah. Great question and great point. My son again had this really fabulous way of conceptualizing this. He said, "I really like to write mom, but I don't like to write." And I was like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "I love to tell stories. I love to share my ideas, but I don't like to hold a pencil, and write." So think just how we conceptualize writing matters. The fact that you said, "I haven't had a pencil and capitals, punctuation", so often we look at what kids print and the actual construction of a letter as what constitutes being smart or being able to write. So, you can have beautiful handwriting and say nothing of any consequence, but you could all also have poor handwriting, or voice to text, and beautifully communicate your ideas, have a great introduction sequence thinking, have great points. So, the point, I think, is what do we actually want young people to do?
Do we want them to learn how to organize their ideas and communicate effectively? Sometimes people are really good with a pen, and pencil, and they need to do that. Sometimes it's typing sometimes it's voice to text, but we have to be able to get clear on that goal. So I think the evolution is just that, is how are we communicating ideas rather than how are we getting stuck in an old method of pen, and paper, but we also don't want to prevent kids who need to do that, and who want to, from having that opportunity. I've seen great doodles and ways of organizing information and infographics. So I think that we need to broaden the scope of what writing is and more broadly think of it as communication.

Beth Strike (07:58):
Again, just a little a follow up to that. So how have you seen schools, help parents come along in terms of their expectations around that? So I'm thinking that some parents and community members may have very traditional expectations about what we teach kids and to say, "Oh, you're not going to teach them handwriting", or some of those things. What's the best way to approach that conversation so that parents can see, this might look a little differently than what you have seen in the past.

Dr. Katie Martin (08:23):
Yeah. I mean, it just takes, continued communication. One being, well, when's the last time you've done this? Why do we need these things, and starting to have conversations about, do you need to be able to print or write in cursive to be able to communicate an idea? Well, if that's not the case, then we're helping prepare kids for what they need. So conversations about actually what is needed right now, also bringing in business leaders and community members to actually talk about how kids are showing up for the jobs, and the workforce. I have too many tell me that kids aren't ready to solve problems, to collaborate with one another, and they don't need to put a pencil to paper. They don't need to write cursive. So I think more than anything, we just need to come together and have these conversations, and stop assuming. Right? So that's like back to the conversation, what does success really mean? And once we are clear on that, then we can start having conversations about what we stop doing and what we need to evolve.

Beth Strike (09:27):
Sounds good.

Amber Dietz (09:28):
And something that you said at the end this morning and it goes along with that, when you said we have to be serious about interrogating our beliefs about success. And just thinking about where does that conversation happen? And who all needs to be in on the conversation of thinking about what success looks like? Because even you just sharing this morning about your son, like the numbers on the report card versus the actual written feedback about what he was doing well, and what areas you could reinforce for growth for him, I think was a really good demonstration of like, how do we define success as all stakeholders in schools.

Dr. Katie Martin (10:15):
Yeah. And it's something that my daughter keeps saying to me. So my kids are now in middle school and they of course hear me talk about the different ways of success, and ways that we're talking with educators. And my daughter came home with a particular grade and she said, "All you care about is grades." And I was like, "Wait a minute. That's not even true!" So I'm having to check myself, and we've had to have conversations to say, it's not the grade that I care about per se, it's the effort, the growth, like are you trying? Are you showing up as your best self? So I've had to really check those conversations between my husband and I, and with the kids to say, "Okay, are you here, because this is where you currently are academically and you need support? Are you here, because you didn't put forth your best efforts? What is it that you need to be doing?"
And having those conversations? So she'll say, "Oh, I studied, I worked really hard. I'm proud of myself." I've seen growth. So having conversations around, not that you have to get an A or a B, but that I want you to do your best. I want you to try hard. I want you to be able to be proud of the effort you're putting in. I've seen her start to take ownership of that and say like, "Oh, I realize when I like make time for this, or I focus, or I write things down, I'm actually... Things could become easier, or I remember the information", whatever it is. But thinking about success just as the grade, it is a data point, right? And sometimes it may or may not even be that relevant, or show what a student knows. But I think checking our own conversations, making sure that the words we are saying match what we actually believe. There's a lot of research out there that shows the way we think other people perceive success is actually different than the way we perceive success.
So, Todd Rose, amazing author wrote this new book, Collective Illusions, and he talks about most people think that other people as success, money, status, that's what success is. And that's what they drive toward. But actually individually people think about purpose, meaning, joy is what actually means success. So we have this tension between what other people think versus what we believe. And the more we can just start having conversations about what we actually see as success, not what we perceive other people think, I think we'll start to see that translate into our schools, and classrooms as well.

Amber Dietz (12:51):
So here's a mom [crosstalk 00:12:53] confession from me. So my son this year is a third grader, and has the snow day packet that gets sent home from school. And as an educator myself, and somebody who really believes in your work, and future ready work, is it hurt a little bit. Like I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this packet." And what I know is the reality is there's not going to be any feedback on that packet. I mean, they're sending it home two months before a snow day happens. So it's not even [crosstalk 00:13:29] potentially timely. And so the first two, we actually lost them, but this last snow day [crosstalk 00:13:36].

Beth Strike (13:36):
...did you lose [crosstalk 00:13:37].

Amber Dietz (13:36):
Well... Well, they were-

Dr. Katie Martin (13:38):
The dog ate them.

Amber Dietz (13:40):
We could not find them, and my son was for compliance, he got teary and was like, "I have to do the snow day packet." And he ended up doing it and it's fine. But I just had this struggle of like, "Yep, that's compliance. And how do I coach the we do care about what your teacher's telling you to do." But also knowing like, wow, what's more important is to me, as a mom, is like that he's outside playing with the neighbors on a snow day, and using his imagination in building forts, and reading, he's like an avid reader. And it pains me that he would sit down to do a packet, but I'm not even sure, and I'm an educator. And I have like strong beliefs, but there's also still a tug at like, "I don't want him to be the kid that's not taking a snow day packet back." And I don't want him to think that like, oh, you can choose when or when you do, and don't do what the teacher asks. So, say you are that mom with the snow day packet, how do you handle something like that?

Dr. Katie Martin (14:46):
There's a lot tied up in that. So I did, at one point when my son was in second grade, go into his teacher who I know cares a lot about him, cares a lot about his success. And I just said, "I cannot continue to force my son to do this", because he was not really happy doing it, but it was the compliance piece, but there was no feedback. It going in the trash can. And I just said, "I'm sorry, what would you like me to do? What is the learning that you want? I can help foster that." But right now this is not the best way for my son to be engaging in this. And she was like, "Oh, he doesn't have to do it. It's just busy work." She was just like, "I thought I had to give it because I thought that parents wanted homework." So, in that conversation, I realized we have to continue to be open about it. And just like you're saying, you're a mom, but how many people are just being compliant, because they're afraid of their kid not having the packet [crosstalk 00:15:44].

Beth Strike (15:43):
They wouldn't question it.

Dr. Katie Martin (15:45):
No. And how many teachers are sending it home, because they think that you want to do it. It's this big illusion that we all think it's worthwhile yet, we all know it's not. If they're not grading it, or looking at it, then why are you going to waste precious energy doing it? So, I think, again, we say we don't have time. We don't have resources to do the things we really want in schools, but we do. We do if we prioritize what matters, and start having these conversations together. Wait, why are you giving that packet? What is it that you want him to do? Oh, I just want them to read. Could he pick a book and read? Could he look at a manual on motors? Zach, my son he'll pick up a history book and read it forever. You give him a novel that he's supposed to read, he's going to be bored out of his mind most of the time, unless it's Harry Potter. But it just depends. We have lots of opportunities to get to the real learning if we allow ourselves to peel back the actual goal.

Amber Dietz (16:45):
So, I think you're telling me to be courageous enough to [crosstalk 00:16:47] have a conversation with the teacher.

Dr. Katie Martin (16:48):
Yeah. Yeah.

Amber Dietz (16:50):
Which is a good push.

Dr. Katie Martin (16:51):
Because you don't want to tell your son, "Oh, don't do it. It doesn't matter", right? Because then you're telling them that what the teacher's doing doesn't matter. And that's, I don't think, what you're saying at all, right? You want the teacher to be trusted. You want them to do what the teacher says. You want them to be able to go out into public spaces and trust that they know the right thing to do. So going around with the teacher's not the right thing. But I think the more and more of us collectively as parents who say, "Hey, is there a better way to do this? How could we help?"

Beth Strike (17:22):
And I just think it's interesting what you said about, too, in that situation, maybe the teacher thinking that's what you wanted as a parent like during times of when we were in the remote learning sort of space, parents really got a firsthand view of what was going on with learning. And maybe for the first time really started to shape their opinions around. Wow, is that what you do? And all of that. And so I just still think it's important to have those dialogues with parents so that we can mutually agree upon what really deep learning looks like. And it's not just busy work or it's not... but those expectations that we live under, we think that we need to meet by parents, in the public, they're important too, so.

Amber Dietz (18:08):
And it makes me think of tradition because I think of how many things are driven by tradition. So I would say I'm going to redeem myself here a little bit as a mom, and educator, is that when every year I go to my son's conference, and I think he has had amazing teachers, I always say, and I'm an educator, I always say, I just want him stay curious, and love to learn, and be the best human he can be. Hard stop. That's what I want him to go to school for. And I would say during COVID, as an only child, I realized how much, and I knew it before COVID but it was like, whoa, the social, emotional that he was getting every day by going to school was ginormous. I mean, I already knew it was really big, but I even valued it more after having him at home with me by himself [crosstalk 00:18:59]Yes. But thinking about, I actually gave the teacher feedback because he doesn't have homework this year as a third grader.
And I told her how much I appreciated because I feel like for our family, in particular, like I want him to learn responsibility at home, like take the trash out. We read every night, it has helped as a mom not having to fight the, "I'm going to do the homework because it's compliance, and it's really not about the learning." And it was interesting because the teacher asked me if I would stop in and say something to the administrator that I appreciated that because I think that they do get some response of like parents thinking like, "Oh, my gosh, is my kid missing out because the homework isn't coming home?" And so it is this just like... It's interesting that we're not having the conversation altogether. It's more of a like side conversation, and we're not really saying like, "Hey, could homework be different?" But like there's comfort in like, "Man, I had spelling lists", so somehow that's comforting to me that like my child would have the same thing, so where do we have those conversations?

Beth Strike (20:07):
That's a good question.

Dr. Katie Martin (20:08):
Yeah. I think partly administrators creating space districts, creating space to have these forums, but also we're not always going to hear the voices we want. We have to go into the community. We have to go into schools, talk to kids. We have to bring kids' voices to the table and get their perspectives, go in to places where parents are having conversations. I think about book clubs, I think about churches, all of the places that parents are go there and have conversations and find out what it is that they actually want. Because what you just said that you want for your son, and you went to the parent-teacher conference and said that, that's the same thing I want for my kids.
And it's hard for me to believe as I talk to so many parents that they want anything different than them to be happy, joyful, successful in their own right, in whatever they choose. But sometimes then it's like, okay, but you have to go follow this step and take all these classes because that's what we think of success. It's not actually again what we all want, but sometimes the tradition keeps us doing that because we think we're supposed to, to be a good parent. And I just think we have to keep pushing back on it.

Beth Strike (21:22):
Yeah. I'm just going to ask, do we have any questions that have come in yet? No. Oh, don't be shy. Ask a question.

Amber Dietz (21:30):
And I would say going back to a tradition. So even when I was listening to you this morning, I was thinking about how many educators did very well in a traditional system, and so there could be some fear doing some of the practices that you were suggesting. So, for those teachers who like the school system that they experienced served them well, and maybe at the beginning of their career, it was meeting the needs of students, and now there's this... It's not necessarily being considered future ready. What would be like an entry point for a teacher like that where their experience it has served them well, but you're trying to get an entry point, say, as an administrator, or an instructional coach of looking at it differently, or trying a practice that you would be suggesting?

Dr. Katie Martin (22:24):
Well, I think a few things. First, is we have to ask and I think someone at your table actually said, "Who are you not serving?" Right? Because if we're serving a certain type who are compliant, there's kids who are not serving there's data that show across the board that there are many kids who are disengaging, they're dropping out, they're just making it through school, but they don't feel successful, or they don't feel like they're really developing the skills that they want in school. So, we have to ask just because it worked for us, there's a very popular saying of like, "Just be the teacher you needed." And I don't ascribe to that. I think it's be the teacher that your students need. We have to understand the kids who are in our classrooms, who they are, and figure out what they need, because if we are only meeting our needs, we're missing the needs of many of the kids in our classroom.
So that would be first. I would just say talk to your students when you talk to kids and get feedback, you learn so much. And sometimes it's hard. Sometimes it doesn't feel very good because we're working really hard as educators, and when you get feedback that it's not actually hitting the mark, that can be challenging. But the second thing is I always ask people to describe their own learning experiences that were really significant, and getting them to think about when is a time you learned something that was really impactful, in school, or out of school? And when we start to interrogate those experiences, we think about that it's purposeful. It was personal to me, there was collaboration opportunities for agency. There was critique and feedback. So there's a lot of things, productive struggle. When we really look at how we learn things deeply, it often is very different than how we learn traditionally in school. So I think that's a good place to just start and think about, oh, well we know a lot about what research says about how we learn, we know from experience.
So we should start thinking about how to incorporate even in one or two of those elements into our practice can be a way to slowly start seeing that. And I think the third is teachers know a lot of the times right now they're frustrated that kids are not... It's like, oh the behaviors, and kids are struggling in stamina. It is true. People are struggling. So can we think about doing things differently, teaching, but I think also restructuring the role of teachers differently. So we're working in teams, and we're collaborating. It is silly that we are still stuck in the one teacher, one classroom model where the one teacher has to be everything to a group of students. We're seeing over and over, it's overwhelming. It's hard to meet all the needs of students. And if we could work together as teams of teachers, and leverage our collective strengths, we would be better equipped to meet the needs of the diverse students and the needs they have.

Amber Dietz (25:20):
Which goes to... Okay, the video you showed of the middle school, I think this morning? And I think that person was called a learning coach. So, is that... My question was so are those like intentionally set up as learning coaches versus content teachers? am I coaching the learning process more so than I'm instructing content. [crosstalk 00:25:46] Is that how there's [crosstalk 00:25:47]

Dr. Katie Martin (25:47):
Absolutely.

Amber Dietz (25:48):
...more about that, because that is fascinating.

Dr. Katie Martin (25:50):
Yeah. So a lot of times in high school you're like, "This is my content. My goal is to teach the content", and said, there's plenty of great content online and teachers can be there to guide. But if you're a learning coach, the student is setting the plan. The student is setting the goals and navigate and learning from internships, learning from mentors, learning collaboration, watching videos, playlists, and the coaches there would be like, "How are you doing? What help do you need? Have you thought about this? Can I connect you with this person?" So I mean how we would learn anything when you're out of school, you find people who know more than you do, you access information, you immerse yourself in the experience to learn by doing. And when we can kind of remove some of these artificial barriers we've put in classrooms in schools, we can just create a little space to actually learn and be. And sometimes kids might goof off. Sometimes kids might have a conversation, but so do adults!

Beth Strike (26:53):
I was just going to [crosstalk 00:26:54] ...all the time!

Dr. Katie Martin (26:55):
Right!

Beth Strike (26:55):
Not all the time, but we do it.

Dr. Katie Martin (26:56):
But we pretend that like a student has to be like perfectly still, sit in their box, ask for permission to go to the bathroom. Heaven forbid they should like laugh or do anything that is not like perfectly sitting in their chair when we know like that's not the real world, that's not how the rest of us should...

Beth Strike (27:17):
And that certainly doesn't help with behavior issues. They're already surfacing due to the pandemic, and everything else.

Dr. Katie Martin (27:22):
Right. And I think part of the challenges we're finding is many of the students had more flexibility. They could go grab a snack, they could go to the bathroom when they wanted, they could text a friend when they had a question when they were home virtually, and now we're trying to stuff them back in the box and they're like, "Wait, whoa, whoa, this didn't... We experience something else. We don't want to come back in the box, and have to do this the traditional way. We've seen other opportunities. And we want to keep learning in that way."

Amber Dietz (27:53):
Which is so when you think of the SEL competency of self management, we always say that actually kids come to us, typically, in kindergarten, and they go to the bathroom when they need, and then we bring them to school and then we're like, "We'll tell you when you can get a drink of water. We'll tell you when you can go to the bathroom", without intentionally, I'm not saying that there's anyone out there as kindergarten people intentionally doing that.

Dr. Katie Martin (28:15):
We teach the rules of school.

Amber Dietz (28:16):
Right. We take away their self management skills that they come to us with unintentionally.

Dr. Katie Martin (28:23):
Yeah. I had a five year old during pandemic, a friend of mine said her daughter was like I'm going to go back to school because all she knew was virtual school. And she said, "I wonder if my teacher knows, I need to stand up when I do math." Right? And she that's how she figured out she wanted to do math is stand and move. But heaven forbid that would non-compliant for a child to do that, typically, in a lot of classrooms.

Beth Strike (28:49):
But going back to what you said about the one teacher, one classroom, I mean you can see why just because of survival, teachers have to set up the structures so that they can survive because if you have 20, some kids and some are standing and some are not, I mean, as a non-ED educator, I would think that would be a little difficult to manage.

Dr. Katie Martin (29:08):
Yes. And I will say, and I said this, this morning that we have to really think about what we believe about good teaching and learning. That is another story we tell ourselves that like good classrooms are quiet. Children are sitting in their desk, diligently doing their work, and that I'm a good teacher, right? That's what we have in our head. That's what we see in a lot of pictures and images of classrooms. And so there was a few teachers I've seen in the last couple weeks who had brilliant things happening in their classroom. But they were like, "It's a little chaotic in here. Maybe you shouldn't come in."
And they're apologizing before we walk in the classroom because people might think they're not a good teacher. So I think we need to change the narrative about what good instruction looks like and what meaningful learning looks like in the classroom so that people can be proud of that. And not always trying keep it so well managed. And I'm not saying that like there's controlled chaos at times. There's lots of... But it doesn't always have to be quiet, and it doesn't always have to be perfectly still to be a good classroom.

Beth Strike (30:17):
I'm just going to take a quick pause. I think we're at about two o'clock here. So we've got about 15 minutes left. Still no questions. I can't believe we don't have any questions. So, you have a little bit of time yet, but we'll keep pressing on.

Amber Dietz (30:31):
I'm going to go back to learning coach because I'm somebody who believes language really matters, and I think that just thinking about how... Talk about tradition. I mean we usually have school days set up in like nice 48 minute blocks. And some of that is we need it for like the whole management logistics of school, but thinking of a learning coach, and how much that would take more vulnerability for educators, because it could be that I don't know what you want You are learning. But like how powerful, when I think of in the agency, we talk about the four C's. But when I think of like teaching, I'm thinking, oh my gosh, like our model really is consulting where it could be collaborating, and coaching. And that's a really big shift, especially I think for seven, 12. That like the learning coach. Oh, my gosh. I'm going to start using that language. I really like that [crosstalk 00:31:33].

Dr. Katie Martin (31:33):
So, let's be clear, teachers can't know everything, right? So I think we need to address that off the bat. Like you said, the vulnerability, oh, my gosh. I might not know what you're learning. There's no way that a teacher can know all of the things. Half the time they're like, "Oh, you're the science teacher, biology, chemistry, physics." We're asking them to teach all these subjects or even world history. There's no way, unless you only allow kids to know what you know, or what the textbook says, which is a disservice to all of them, as we know, the world is changing day by day, and things are happening. And if we are only allowing kids to study, and learn, what's in the textbook or in our heads, we're doing them a disservice.

Beth Strike (32:18):
Can't you just hear this collective sigh of teachers everywhere. Like, Oh, I don't have to know everything.

Dr. Katie Martin (32:22):
You don't! I don't! There's so much I don't know, right? As a consultant at the agency, you can't know everything, but your skills are in able to like, who can I pull in? Who does know this? Guess what? NASA's got a great set of videos on air space why should I be the one to tell you that when they are the experts, right? I want to coach and facilitate you, and what you're interested in, then we can create a little bit more space. You said, "Take a collective deep breath." And like, I want to push your thinking about questions. I want to ask you to go figure it out. But I was a language arts teacher and I couldn't have read all the books in my, I mean, I got thousands of books and that was by choice. I didn't read every single book in my classroom, but the kids read all of them.
If I would've only let them read books that I had read it would've been pretty limited. And that wouldn't be very fair because I have different tastes than they did. But we did book studies, literature circles, and they got to read different books. They got to read them in small groups. They got to share ideas across the classroom. And they were much more engaged because of it. Because they chose them. They got to read them. So I wasn't testing them. Did they know everything that happened in the book? I was testing them on my standards. Do you know how to cite the main idea? Do you know how to synthesize information? Do you know how to figure out details my standards don't say, do you know the answer, like what happened at the end of the book? Right? That's the curriculum that we get confused by the standards versus the curriculum.

Amber Dietz (33:56):
Raise the roof on that one.

Dr. Katie Martin (33:57):
So, but I do want to say to your point, the learning coach piece. So all of this started with the learning coach. There's a few schools, I'm sure all over the country, but Lindsey Unified is a district that's really done a lot of work on the naming. So they talk about learning communities. Their schools are learning communities. Their teachers are learning facilitators, learning leaders, they've really embraced the terms differently. And it has shifted how they talk about learning, and learners in the community for sure.

Beth Strike (34:29):
Nice. You said today that smart people ask questions. So, who are five educational leaders that you follow that you think ask really good questions?

Dr. Katie Martin (34:38):
Oh gosh. That's so good. I'll have to shout out George Carlos. He's a good friend. I know he's been here and he asks good questions and he encourages educators to collaborate and always encourages people to write and share their thinking, but always stemming from really good questions. I love Dr. Katie Novak, who is just an expert in universal design for learning, but really a mom, a mom who knows she has four kids who have different strengths, and interests, and really helps educators understand the variability that exists among all of us and how we can actually design to remove those barriers. I think, another good friend is Caleb Rashad.
He is the CEO at High Tech High, but a former principal coach. And just really always pushing my thinking about what learning is, what the conditions we set and how it inspires people. And even as a mom pushing my thinking about how our practices help our children to become who they are meant to be. Our CEO and good friend of mine, Devon Vodicka was a superintendent. He was actually the superintendent at Vita, who is really good at listening, pushing, thinking, asking questions. Gosh, one... Is that four?

Beth Strike (36:25):
I think that's four. That's pretty good.

Dr. Katie Martin (36:27):
That is pretty good. There's [crosstalk 00:36:29] so many, I have. Yeah. There's there's just a lot of really great educators but we'll go with four.

Beth Strike (36:33):
Yeah, thanks. And we'll put all links to all those folks in the show notes too.

Dr. Katie Martin (36:37):
Great. Great.

Amber Dietz (36:38):
Okay. I have one scenario for you to... So say it's a teacher who watched you this morning and has read your book and is like, "I love you, and what you're saying, but I work in a district where the curriculum director is like you need to be on this page of this curriculum on this day and it is scripted, and there's some pressure coming from like authority-ish. How do you coach that teacher that wants to step out from kind of that this is the curriculum. This what day you'll be on that. You need to follow the pacing guide. How do you coach that teacher?

Dr. Katie Martin (37:24):
Yeah. Well, can I talk to the curriculum director?

Amber Dietz (37:27):
Right? You're like I'm skipping the teacher.

Dr. Katie Martin (37:29):
Yeah. I mean I'll coach the teacher. I think that this might not be the answer anyone wants, but at the end of the day, like I would say what are the outcomes? Stay true to the outcomes you're held accountable to. And I've had many teachers say, "I know a better way." I think we it's our obligation to, if we know a better way, it's our obligation to try, and test a better way. I'm not saying like don't follow the direction and just do whatever you want. But if we're clear on the goals and you know that you're going to get there, I would say, think about what you know. Think about the ways that you think students can get there and try.
But first talk to your principal, ask for permission, say "I have an idea. Here's something I want to try", talk to the curriculum director, try and build some understanding. I know those people exist, but I have found them very far, and few between when you actually show up and say, I have an idea. I care so deeply about my kids. I want to try this. Usually people are like "Great, Let's try it. Have you thought about this? Can you try this? Can I come watch?" So, I would say invite people into the process, help them understand what you want to do, but sitting back not doing anything because you assume everybody else is going to tell you, no, I can't stand by and support.

Beth Strike (38:56):
Yeah, that totally makes sense. We've got time for a couple more questions.

Amber Dietz (39:02):
Which goes back to your slide on like the joy that you've felt in the last seven days, or like how you've filled your interest in the last seven days, and thinking about that really for some teachers takes the joy out. And what we know is students are a mirror to us, and so really being kind of thinking about how you showed the visual this morning of like the information about the student. Also thinking about staff and if we really believe that education, and teaching is an art, we should know our people.

Dr. Katie Martin (39:38):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is an art and a science, right? There's a lot of science that we know about learning. It is an art and how we go about drawing out the best in people, and thinking about how we can help them tap into their strengths and interests. So, there's a lot of ways, even with standards, and curriculum that we can think differently. I put this in the book, but I was in a school district, the school and they had the same curriculum. One teacher I walked in, the teacher was reading the curriculum to students.
The students were sitting down nodding along, and filling in the box, right? Reading the passage, all that to students. The second class, same curriculum that students were reading the passages, talking to each other, and then filling in the answers. The third class, same curriculum, the students were given the scenarios and given the resources and how to figure it out themselves and justify to somebody else. Right? Same curriculum, but it's the teacher was like, "Well it's too often I see these kids can't read it. It's too hard for them, so we do it for them", right?

Beth Strike (40:46):
The bridge.

Dr. Katie Martin (40:47):
The bridge, right? We create a bridge instead of actually having them learn. In that third class there's kids who didn't get the right answer. There's kids who screwed up the experiment, but they were reading, trying to figure out information. That's what they have to do without us, right? They have to be able to make it through the text, figure out how to do something, or ask for help or problem solve. And so the more and more we can give them those opportunities within the same curriculum, the better off they're going to be for it. And then the teacher, again, is there to guide and support and go, "Oh, you miss that? Why don't you go back and figure it out? Here's a hint. Maybe you could try it this way." Instead of just telling them the answer the whole way through

Beth Strike (41:28):
Any last bit of advice for teachers, or those that want to get started?

Dr. Katie Martin (41:33):
This work is so important. The teachers who spend the time with our kids and are closest to them every day deserve the autonomy, the agency and the resources to be able to meet the needs of the students they serve. So, if you're a teacher, I hope you're advocating for it. I hope you are finding partners to work together so you don't have to do it alone. And if you're in any position outside of the classroom, I hope you're talking to teachers, talking to parents, talking to students to find out what you can do better to serve your community.

Beth Strike (42:09):
Katie, thank you.

Amber Dietz (42:10):
Thank you.

Beth Strike (42:12):
It's been a pleasure to have you [crosstalk 00:42:12] Nice job.

Amber Dietz (42:13):
Thanks.

Beth Strike (42:14):
All right. This has been another Learning on Demand Podcast. Thanks for joining us.