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Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT is the podcast for IT leaders, service management professionals, and digital transformation teams who know that great IT is about more than process, tools, and frameworks.
Hosted by Katrina Macdermid and Wesley Eugene and brought to you by HIT Global, this podcast explores how to make IT service management more human, more effective, and more relevant in a world shaped by experience, AI, and constant change.
Each episode dives into the real conversations happening across modern IT, including:
- IT service management (ITSM)
- Human-centred design in IT
- ITIL and experience-led service management
- Digital employee experience
- Service desk and support leadership
- IT transformation and organisational change
- Humanising AI and modern service design
If you work in IT and care about creating services that actually work for the people who use them, this podcast is for you.
Whether you’re a CIO, IT leader, service manager, consultant, support professional, or transformation lead, Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT will challenge outdated thinking and help you rethink what better IT service really looks like.
Expect:
- Honest conversations
- Fresh perspectives on ITSM
- Practical insights you can apply
- Thought leadership from experienced voices in the industry
- A more human view of IT, service and experience
Subscribe to Humanising IT: We Need to Talk About IT for new episodes, expert insights, and modern thinking on the future of IT service management.
Explore more from HIT Global: https://www.hitglobal.services/
Learn more about Humanising IT™ training and certification: https://www.hitglobal.services/podcast/
[00:00:00]
Speaker: Hey there, cat. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2: Hi, Wesley. How are [00:00:10] you?
Speaker: Uh, I am doing great. So I'm excited for us to get into this conversation. You know, we're gonna be talking about a whole, a whole lot's been happening in the world since [00:00:20] we recorded our last podcast.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. A whole lot. It seems it's a different place, doesn't it?
Speaker: Yeah. And I'm, I have an opinion about [00:00:30] this, but did all the things that are happening in the world. All the changes, you know, of course, uh, even ai, all those things have [00:00:40] anything to do with what prompted you to write a new book?
Speaker 2: Yes and yes.
Speaker: Well, let's tell everybody the [00:00:50] title, right? So this is humanizing it, the experience distortion of it, service management.[00:01:00]
That's an interesting choice of words. The humanizing. I think everybody's heard us talk about that a bit, but this experience, distortion. [00:01:10] What is that?
Speaker 2: Well, I think since writing my first book, the, as you say, the uh, world has changed significantly. And when we say the world, we mean the world [00:01:20] of it service management.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, other things have changed, obviously, like, uh, but the, the book was, uh, three, four years ago when I wrote it. And, um, I've learned a lot more and I think it. Uh, has [00:01:30] progressed a lot since then, obviously, and it just seems to be, experience is the new buzzword in, in it, and I think there's a lot of [00:01:40] confusion, um, about what experience means in it.
I have very strong views, as you know mm-hmm. On the role of experience in IT, service management. And, um, that was really the [00:01:50] prompt for writing a new book. Um, based on this whole, everything's about experience now, and of course ai of course.
Speaker: Okay, [00:02:00] so when we talk about the term distortion, I am pretty sure that word is not used [00:02:10] anywhere in your original book, which was.
Human-centered design for it Service management. Mm-hmm. Why bring the word distortion in now? [00:02:20] Why feature it prominently? What does it mean? What's being distorted?
Speaker 2: I think that we're confusing [00:02:30] frameworks or models, and as you know, and I've said too often, Wes, I don't believe that. I'll go with framework for now.
Okay. The framework called human centered [00:02:40] design. Uh, 'cause it is a framework fits into the framework of it service management, so framework that we're all familiar with, such as IL it's not a hand in glove [00:02:50] relationship. Um, they, they're there for different purposes. And I think when you, uh, respectfully don't understand both disciplines or frameworks, um, [00:03:00] that's when the distortion starts.
And what we do through HIT Global. Yeah. Um, our, our company, we, we do training that, uh, educates IT professionals [00:03:10] to stop the distortion.
Speaker: Okay. So who is this book really for? And um, what do you hope it [00:03:20] changes? Uh, not just in the industry but in our profession? Like what? Is that ideal outcome?
Speaker 2: So the book would be for, and I said this for the original [00:03:30] book, it's from the service desk to product developers, to the CIO and everybody in between.
Everybody. Um, and [00:03:40] I often say this too, whereas we, we go to conferences, we're lucky to travel the world and speak at events. Um, it events. Yeah. And we talk about value and [00:03:50] co-creation. And very rarely, and I'll be brave, the last event I was at there was not one person from the business at these events.
It's IT people. [00:04:00] And so I want the book to also be read by business people so they understand the complexities of it, [00:04:10] service management.
Speaker: Okay. Fair. Um, I'm curious if I'm a business person and I'm picking up this book. Where [00:04:20] am I featured? Where do I see myself? Hmm. It might have something to do with, um.
Silent suffering. Say more about that. [00:04:30]
Speaker 2: Yes. So in, in our book and in our training, we, we teach human centered design, um, tools and techniques, and one of those is called [00:04:40] archetypes. Mm-hmm. Um, and one of those archetypes is called a silent sufferer, um, which I'm sure most of us, um, and our listeners know, uh.
There's people in the business and in [00:04:50] it, um, that don't log tickets, they'll just put up with things. Um, another archetype we have is the workaround expert. Again, I'm sure that we're [00:05:00] familiar with these type of archetypes and, and that's what I loved about writing the book because as you know, I studied it service management, um, for many, many years and again, attained one of the [00:05:10] highest certifications you could get.
Um, I never knew any of this stuff. I never knew what a archetype was, what a persona was. Um, all these wonderful tools and [00:05:20] techniques that help us design a better IT service management experience. Um, and when you say who's involved, we need to get these archetypes. [00:05:30] Into the design of our processes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: And And I think, sorry, I jump ahead. I think where we make a lot of mistakes in it [00:05:40] service management is again, with this experience, experience starts with a process step. So every time a user logs an incident [00:05:50] or asks for an update or. Anything to do interaction with it. We have created an experience.
We've asked the user for [00:06:00] decades choose between a service request and an incident. That's an experience. We're asking them to fill out a form on the portal. That's an experience we're sending [00:06:10] them updates. That's an experience and these archetypes, have we ever got them involved in the design of these process steps or anything?
[00:06:20] Interaction with it?
Speaker: Okay. You said a lot there. There's a lot to unpack. Okay, so we're gonna zoom out for a second and we are just gonna make sure we bring everyone who's [00:06:30] listening along with us rapid fire. How do we define an experience?
Speaker 2: Mm, good question. Got me stomped [00:06:40] there. How would you define it? I, I, I think,
Speaker: I mean, in layman's terms, it's fine.
Speaker 2: Well, in humanizing, excuse me, not it, we would say an [00:06:50] experience is any interaction, whether it's a digital interaction or human interaction.
Speaker: Okay, fair enough. So it's any interaction. [00:07:00] And then, um, with that. Let's double click on the word archetype. You've used archetype and persona interchangeably a second ago.[00:07:10]
Let's just make sure we're bringing everyone with us. Mm-hmm. What is it?
Speaker 2: What is it? So, an archetype, excuse me, is, uh, patterns of behavior. [00:07:20] So how, how do you behave, um, in a situation?
Speaker: Hmm. So if I'm acting, maybe a metaphor for this is. An an archetype is a [00:07:30] role.
Speaker 2: No,
Speaker: no.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, because, uh, for example, we're used to the term VIP in service management.
[00:07:40] VIP is usually an executive, and we've spoken about this, you get
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker 2: Preferential treatment entitlement, we would call it in humanizing it.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Um, but A [00:07:50] VIP VIPs can be different archetypes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: So,
Speaker 2: so a, a archetype is not a role. It's, it's how you behave in a situation.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: And you, you, you might [00:08:00] change.
Speaker: So archetype is a set of behaviors?
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Okay. So, uh, someone could occupy more than one archetype.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Depends on the situation. [00:08:10]
Speaker: Okay, fantastic. Because you mentioned too, you mentioned the workaround.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: Right? And you also mentioned the silent sufferer.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: I can personally attest I've been [00:08:20] both.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean, you gave an example once was as a VIP, uh, you wanted to change your password, and what archetype did you [00:08:30] adopt? Do you remember?
Speaker: Oh, so
Speaker 2: you rang, you rang someone directly,
Speaker: ultimately. Ultimately, yeah. I was trying to silently suffer through [00:08:40] getting through my own pro. Rightly designed process, but poorly delivered [00:08:50] experience.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. But you reacted
Speaker: and when I could no longer suffer silently, I picked up the ca the phone and pulled the [00:09:00] VIP card.
Speaker 2: Yes, you did. Whereas another archetype we talk about in the book is, um, a ruling force or a guardian. That will always follow process. [00:09:10]
Speaker: Oh
Speaker 2: yeah. So,
Speaker: so for those of you who've been following us, I think this is where you use the word Chuck.
Speaker 2: Chuck, yes.
Speaker: Okay.
Speaker 2: Very good. Yeah. Chuck is [00:09:20] absolutely
Speaker: all about the rules.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker: You know the type, right?
Speaker 2: Absolutely. Yeah. Very much so.
Speaker: This is a guy who doesn't get invited to the parties happy hours. [00:09:30] You just leave this in, in, in, on our side of the pond. We call this guy a buzzkill.
Speaker 2: Buzzkill,
Speaker: buzzkill. The party's over as soon as he arrives.
Speaker 2: Yes, [00:09:40] there's Chuck. Yeah. Yeah. But, but the reason it's important in the early design work, um, again, I might go back a little bit, Wes, is that our [00:09:50] framework, the humanizing, I hit double diamond framework. It, it's a, it's, we walk through steps. Yeah. To design something. We just don't do an archetype. We just don't do [00:10:00] a persona.
Speaker: Right.
Speaker 2: Um, and part of that is if you are designing it again, I'll use a process. We're all familiar with the incident management process. You have to have [00:10:10] these archetypes front of mind because again, people that are by nature, work around experts, will not log tickets. [00:10:20] They just won't. And so you have to consider that.
And then you also need to consider that when we are doing, uh, reporting, we've, we've had x amount of incidents this [00:10:30] month that that's not true. We know that.
Speaker: Now, would it be fair to say that a persona can, um. A persona can be [00:10:40] expressed via multiple archetypes.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker: Okay. And so in hu, in, in human centered design for IT service management, we introduce [00:10:50] personas and proto personas.
Mm-hmm. Right? Um, which, you know, for the uninitiated, think of a proto persona as a persona light. Okay. Um. Zero calories, but all the [00:11:00] flavor. So, um, but now, now we're moving, uh, in, into humanizing it in your second installment here, where we're introducing in addition to [00:11:10] personas. The concept of archetypes and the need for the folks who are responsible for designing and delivering experiences to hold both of [00:11:20] these concepts in mind as they're designing and delivering
Speaker 2: experiences
Speaker: through the design
Speaker 2: process.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. So we do archetypes first and then we move on to proto personas. Okay. But I, I think what I'd also like to [00:11:30] highlight is. Human-centered design, as you know, was, is, is an amazing framework Yeah. Um, that people spend years studying,
Speaker: [00:11:40] right.
Speaker 2: So to create a persona, it creates skills and also it costs a lot of money to, to create a, a, a persona that companies we're familiar [00:11:50] with.
You know, Microsoft, IBM, all the big companies create personas for their customers.
Speaker: Sure.
Speaker 2: And they invest heavily in understanding customers. [00:12:00] We say in the book that, and part of this distortion is we don't believe that IT departments need [00:12:10] that skill and it's also outta respect for the craft.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Of human centered design.
Speaker: Mm-hmm.
Speaker 2: Um. I, I, I would be quite nervous if I hear, um, when I, well, I do, I hear we've created personas. [00:12:20] Personas can take months to do. And so in the book we, we say that we can do light versions of it and we acknowledge [00:12:30] that. And customer journey mapping is another example.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Where again, that can take months with fantastically skilled human centered designers.
Speaker: I'm gonna trip you up.
Speaker 2: [00:12:40] Go on, trip me up.
Speaker: So in humanizing it, how do we think about [00:12:50] customers? Um, are we actually thinking about CX in the traditional sense, where we're looking at the customer debts? On the receiving end of [00:13:00] consuming the services or the products that our company's delivering, or are we thinking of someone else?
Speaker 2: Mm. And this always gets me into trouble with
Speaker: I knew. I know. [00:13:10] That's why I asked.
Speaker 2: So in humanizing it, the premise is that it service management [00:13:20] is not responsible for customer experience. And I always get objection and I say, how can it possibly be [00:13:30] when we have very little interaction with a customer? And at the end of the day, it was not designed for customers, it was designed for end users.
Speaker: So [00:13:40] on that last part, I agree.
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
Speaker: On the first part, I might take issue. Take issue, right? So if I'm looking at, say, an academic institution mm-hmm. [00:13:50] The customer persona there oftentimes are the learners Yes. The students, right. In my experience, they are [00:14:00] experiencing, um, it they're interacting with the service desk quite directly.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: Whereas like if I'm thinking about Macy's as a retailer. [00:14:10] I go and I purchase, you know, a new watch at Macy's. My interaction with it is, it, is it, [00:14:20] I is is little. It's, it's, it's almost, uh, it's passive. It's not, or indirect. Um, I'm consuming the technology, but really the person that's delivering their experience is the [00:14:30] frontline.
Correct. Frontline staff. Mm-hmm. So. And confirm or complicate that? Yes. Am I thinking about this?
Speaker 2: No. So we, we say there's always exceptions. So universities is an exception where, okay. Uh, we [00:14:40] do deal directly with the customer,
Speaker: right?
Speaker 2: Um, which would be the students obviously, but. That's one of the very few, because again, okay.
A department [00:14:50] store, an airline, a hospital, you know, it does not talk to nurses.
Speaker: Right. Generally,
Speaker 2: sorry to patients. I bet your pardon? But Right.
Speaker: Generally. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Um, they would talk to the nurses, and the nurses talk to the patients, so, right. You know, [00:15:00] again, an airline wouldn't speak to, um, a pa a passenger customers ring a contact center typically.
Yeah. Um, which then may end up [00:15:10] in the it fair enough, organization enough. So that's the premise is that this whole thing, experience, and again, as we say in the book, um, how can it possibly be responsible [00:15:20] for experience? Because in its truest form, experience is air conditioning experience is how crowded the room is, how, uh, the, the volume of the music that's, that's truly [00:15:30] experience.
So. My concern is if we say we're responsible for experience, we're overreaching and we'll not be successful. So we have to be very [00:15:40] specific in saying that to stop the distortion,
Speaker: that it is not responsible for the experience.
Speaker 2: Not entirely, no,
Speaker: not entirely. Yeah. Okay. That [00:15:50] word is pretty important. So it is partially responsible for the experience
Speaker 2: It is.
Speaker: And to the, to the extent to which it is responsible for their [00:16:00] experience. How are they doing?
Speaker 2: Going ask Can use, they're out there. And there's one,
Speaker: well, you asked, you, you asked it [00:16:10] folks in your book and you talked about it.
Speaker 2: Yes.
Speaker: What was the response?
Speaker 2: Yes. So we've have done a survey again of asking, um, IT professionals, what do they think [00:16:20] the business thinks of it?
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And it's always slow, complex.
Uh, they don't understand us.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Um, and, and I think [00:16:30] that's, I always get quite, um, passionate about that. 'cause I think it's quite sad that we all go to work in it and we wanna do a good job, but the [00:16:40] business isn't appreciating. What we do. And as I often said, because it's complex and look, I think, you know, as we said at the very beginning of this podcast mm-hmm.
[00:16:50] The world has changed. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's getting a lot better. Yeah. And I think, um, because we are talking about experience more and, and I think collectively, you know, we've been the [00:17:00] pioneers, um, our team at Heat Global of, of being that awareness of experience. But we've gotta be careful.
We've gotta be really careful. Yeah. And that's why I say the [00:17:10] distortion, because I often say you can't tell people to be more human centered or more customer focused, especially IT people. [00:17:20] We didn't join it for experience. We joined it for very, very different reasons among amongst us. And so in a, a very [00:17:30] measured and guarded way, we have to define what experience means in it.
Service management. And then do the education and [00:17:40] training.
Speaker: Hmm. Fair enough. I think obviously the book delves into this very important, uh, issue that's in front of all of us. Um, [00:17:50] and when I think about it, one of the things that keeps me up at night. Um, as a CIO, as a technologist is the incredible advancement of ai.
[00:18:00] So when we're thinking about the counter, the juxtaposition of AI and experience in ITSM, where do we land? [00:18:10] What is your guidance right now?
Speaker 2: Um, fortunately we, we have a lot of opportunities to see what's happening in the world of ai and. And, and tooling. I'll say it. Case [00:18:20] management. Sure. Yeah. I, I think that there is such a huge opportunity untapped within, um, that space and really to [00:18:30] make it an exceptional experience.
Um. Is ongoing. Ongoing. I think you know AI at the moment, for the most part it's [00:18:40] categorizing knowledge, which is fantastic. You know how you log tickets is a whole different world. That's all ai. But I think to make it really human centered. Um, that it knows that you're was, [00:18:50] it knows that you're very tech savvy.
It, it, it knows a lot about you. I, I think that that's really, really great opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker: And also a little creepy asche, GBT sometimes it is [00:19:00] unnerving. Uh, Claude. So Claude is at times too, but
Speaker 2: you're right.
Speaker: Absolutely. It is what it is. It's like, um, I think I told you, I, I overshared, can I roll that back?
Go into that memory, [00:19:10] delete that, but nevertheless. It is, there's a lot of promise as well as Pearl with ai. So let's land a plane. At the end of the day. You [00:19:20] wrote this book. I think it's probably important to kind of clearly, you know, tackle again. Um, what is, why is the experience distorted [00:19:30] and um, why is it that, uh, folks who've read your first book should be picking up this book.
Speaker 2: I think from a, I'll be personal here. [00:19:40] Yeah. That I have learned so much from writing that book and since then we've created the, the, the double diamond framework. Yeah. The HE Global that actually gives it professionals something [00:19:50] they can hold in their hands. Right. And actually design. And this is probably another podcast, a positive experience because I hear this a lot.
And it [00:20:00] wasn't that long ago actually, uh, I saw a strategy, uh, and it started off, we have to deliver an exceptional experience. And I said to the CIO, do you have an exceptional [00:20:10] budget? And the answer was no. Spicy.
Speaker: Spicy, okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I said to her mother, they're gonna be very brave or very stupid asking you this [00:20:20] question because don't promise.
Speaker: Did you get the business?
Speaker 2: I'll let you know.
Speaker: Alright,
Speaker 2: I'll let you know. But it is true. So, you know, a thing that we [00:20:30] borrow from human centered design and, and, and I'll be very transparent here, we are using a lot of human centered design techniques. It's not something we've created, but we've adopted them for the complexity and [00:20:40] constraints
Speaker: Yeah.
Of
Speaker 2: it service management. So we say we wanna create a positive experience.
Speaker: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But again, if, if you have a lot of money, create an exceptional experience. [00:20:50] But if you don't. Be careful because this is where distortion will also occur.
Speaker: Fantastic. Listen, it's been a honor and it's been great having this conversation.
I know. Um, [00:21:00] as a CIO I've taken my teams through classic human-centered designs. Yes. AKA design thinking mm-hmm. Training. And they get excited during the training and they turn [00:21:10] around and say, how do I apply this? And I never had a great answer. Because they didn't have time for a ton of [00:21:20] prototyping. They didn't have time for doing all the cool things, and they were using a lot of, uh, off the shelf technologies, right?
Uh, so it wasn't a lot of [00:21:30] opportunities for whiteboarding and creativity in the classic sense. So I, I, I struggled to really bridge those two worlds until I read. [00:21:40] Human centered design for it, service management joined HIT Global and went on this journey with you and Mark. So I'm really excited about the second installment.
I think it's a must have [00:21:50] and uh, yeah, I think it's been a great conversation today.
Speaker 2: It's been a great conversation, conversational, educational, and fun. So
Speaker: absolutely.
Speaker 2: Thank you. Till next time. Thank
Speaker: you. Till next [00:22:00] time.