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The Space Industry by satsearch - sharing stories about the businesses taking us into orbit.
We delve into the opinions and expertise of the people behind the commercial space companies of today, who could become the household names of tomorrow. Find out more about the companies and technologies discussed on this show at satsearch.com.
0:01: Hello, everybody. I'm your host, Hywel Curtis, And I'd like to welcome you to the space industry by satsearch, where we share stories about the companies taking us into orbit.
0:10: In this podcast, we delve into the opinions and expertise of the people behind the commercial space organisations of today who could become the household names of tomorrow before we get started with the episode.
0:21: Remember, you can find out more information about the suppliers, products and innovations that are mentioned in this discussion on the global marketplace for space at satsearch.com.
0:31: Hello, everybody and welcome to today's episode of the space industry podcast by satsearch.
0:36: Today we're joined by Árisz from an organisation in in Hungary called Remred, and I'd be really interested to speak with Árisz.
0:45: This company we've done some work with and an organisation that's doing some really great things in space in in in Eastern Europe and working on missions globally also is an organisation that maybe works at at various levels of the supply chain, which I'm hoping to hoping to discuss with our great to have you with us today. Árisz thank you very much for being here.
1:03: I I just wanted to set the scene for our listeners today by asking if you could give us a quick overview of your personal background, introduce yourself and your role and and introduce the company RemRed as well for those who maybe aren't familiar.
1:16: Hi first of all, thank you very much for inviting me on this podcast. As you said, we have been working together.
1:23: We search and sure let me give brief introduction about myself and Remred, the company that I'm representing my name is Árisz Kecskés and I'm the head of business development here at Remred L T D, which is a space engineering and satellite manufacturing company based out in Budapest, Hungary.
1:44: Just a bit about myself and how I got into the space industry. I've entered in space industry in 2020 so more than four years now, and it's been quite a transition from my previous role.
1:59: I was a sectoral strategist previously in the tourism industry, And then I got the very exciting chance to join the Hungarian Space Development Strategy Team as a work stream leader in the strategy for, Hungary's relationship with the European Space Agency.
2:22: And really, my goal was to find how Hungarian space industrial stakeholders can really join the international value chain and, , develop the Hungarian space industry at large. And this was quite an interesting, project which we have done.
2:40: I've gained quite a good and broad overview on the space industry itself, and that's when I transitioned into a double role.
2:49: I would say we start. I started as a business development manager at R L T D and in parallel I was also an investment manager for Har Capital, which is a space focused capital firm. And we did investments mainly focused on on European space industrial start ups. And after that I've put all my focus on to Remred and I am heading the business development unit within the organisation.
3:20: maybe a bit of an introduction of Remred itself, because I said the name of maybe there are some listeners who don't know what Remred is about. Remred was established in 2016 as the spin off company of the Hungarian Centre for Energy Research, and the main domains that Rem Redd was initially active in was Space O imme and space by their forecasting instrumentation. And it was the very usual spin off model.
3:49: There were a few engineers who were working very closely with the institute on mainly European Space Agency projects in the domains of space, dosimetry and Space E. And we also built out quite good heritage in electrical engineering. And once I joined the team in 2021 that's when there was a strategic pivot.
4:13: I would say where we really looked at what this company could be, what areas and domains we really want to develop. And we came to the decision, and here we used space like partners now Nova Space to validate our idea. We really wanted to get into it.
4:30: The small satellite business and what we've established was that we want to get into the business of satellites in the asset class of approximately 100 and 50 to 400 kilogrammes and not the Nano satellite business. And obviously not the largest satellite either.
4:51: This was the sweet spot that we looked at from a commercial perspective as well. That will be quite a driving force in the upcoming years. And this is the main focus focus area that we are in the process of developing or the business area that we are developing the most for the past two years. And this will be our focus for them next couple of years as well.
5:13: Fantastic. Thank you for that background.
5:15: Very interesting transition that you you had personally from tourism to the space industry.
5:20: Obviously there are ambitious plans for space tourism at some point for various companies around the world, so maybe they'll even be an opportunity for you to use that experience to.
5:35: great.
5:36: And thank you very much for describing everything about re red, about how you're working and and the focus of the company on on the certain asset class of satellites.
5:45: Very interesting to to choose such a niche.
5:49: I think it's very important for companies to understand where they are going to operate and where they aren't, especially because, as we know, so many technologies and missions in space are completely custom designed and whether they've come from the private sector or whether they're specified by agencies and agency programmes.
6:08: And it can be very easy for companies to be chasing every new shiny object that comes along because they think, Oh, we could do that for this mission.
6:15: I think it's a great thing that you guys have focused on a certain mass range and and of the small satellites and where you want to really build their expertise.
6:25: Yeah, so I just need to very quickly, , reflect on this.
6:29: Yes, indeed.
6:29: So we want to be very pragmatic about how we want to strategically develop ram as well.
6:36: And this not only goes for the satellite revenue stream, basically, that we are trying to build out, but this also goes for all the development projects that we are doing.
6:46: So we really want to become an industrial stakeholder in a sense that we don't want to research for the sake of research.
6:53: But we want to have a very industrial approach and a very commercial approach on all the developments that we are doing where it's expected, that OK, there will be a commercial customer or there could be a commercial customer for this.
7:06: There is a potential market for this, so we want to be really pragmatic when it comes to the revenue streams or businesses or even research projects that we are putting significant resources towards.
7:17: Yeah, fantastic.
7:18: I think you can never have too much pragmatism.
7:21: And yeah, it helps with strategy helps with focusing.
7:23: So that's great.
7:25: It leads into my next question, really, obviously with some of the projects that you have in the pipeline or that you have worked on in the past.
7:34: The your actual own supply chain is I'm assuming a very important aspect of that and obviously this is our our area of interest that that search is what we work on.
7:45: So I wondered if you were willing to share with the listeners.
7:47: If you've encountered any issues in the supply chain over the last few years, are they, for example, certain capabilities that you found hard to source or any maybe poor behaviours from suppliers that you may have seen?
8:00: And I think it's quite interesting because you've come to the industry from outside that you you have a perspective on how companies in different sectors work as well.
8:09: So if there's anything on that as well, you might be able to comment on, that would be great.
8:13: Sure, sure, yes.
8:15: As I said, we are right now in the process of developing our own proprietary in House Bus.
8:23: And as anyone might imagine, this is quite a complex and daunting undertaking.
8:29: So we have really strategically design even in our head what we want to keep strategically in house and want to either develop capabilities towards or have already have those capabilities, , and what?
8:44: Even on a subsystem level, for example, we really want to procure from outside sources, and this is where self search has been extremely valuable as a tool as well and as a partner in our research as well, and we want to find suppliers.
9:00: And when we look at the product portfolio that we had thus far, which was mainly in the electronic electrical engineering field or the fields of equipment development there we have a very robust, very, very well defined procurement sources on who the suppliers are, who the trusted suppliers are.
9:19: But with the undertaking that we are in the midst of now, in terms of the satellite on systems level, we really needed to find out what provider how we will select the suppliers or sub subcontractors that we want to work with, what the methodology will be, how we will be able to have a very good working relation.
9:41: Given that we are working with quite a well defined and tight deadline for all these phases, what we found and what was a bit interesting and I wouldn't even say challenging, we obviously have a very well set set of requirements that we needed in terms of, I don't know, lifetime or the technical specificities of the given subsystems that you want to procure.
10:08: And then what we've seen and this was somewhat challenging in some cases is that in the initial phases or the initial R F I phases.
10:17: We received feedback from potential suppliers about their compliance on given things and then, in further conversations, those full compliance.
10:29: The full compliance.
10:30: That was, I would say, selected initially came out to be as either not exactly compliant or just less compliant than than we would have liked.
10:41: And then this is a very fine balance, and there were some parts where we also need to look at our requirements.
10:48: But there was needed to be readjusted, and this happened in a in a few cases as well.
10:54: But this it's a it's a conversation.
10:56: It's a very iterative process.
10:58: I would say, Yeah, fantastic, Yeah, yeah, absolutely agree.
11:01: This is systems engineering, isn't it?
11:03: You have a system of systems and each of those may, as you mentioned, the the the build versus by question is, is important for for each of those aspects of the system.
11:14: But there's also then, yeah, relationships between them and trade offs that you need to account for.
11:19: Yeah, it approaching it from an iterative perspective and you learning from suppliers how you may need to refine requirements in some cases is important.
11:29: But also, as you say, understanding what the suppliers capabilities really are isn't always straightforward.
11:36: Thank you for sharing that, and also thank you very much for what you just mentioned about working.
11:40: That's great.
11:41: Yeah, very interesting.
11:42: And obviously best of luck with the rest of the development of the platform of the bus.
11:46: It's a very interesting area of the industry.
11:50: I think there's different suppliers at all levels, but there's so much variation in the market that there's a lot that could be.
11:57: There's a lot of opportunities and there are obviously the challenges with the competition wise.
12:02: But there's a lot of opportunities for companies to stake a claim, but at different levels in different countries and find find the market, find buyers.
12:10: Exactly.
12:11: This is also something that is very important as well.
12:14: We have a very strict I don't know, requirement on compliance with ECs s standards.
12:19: But then suppliers are in very different geographies are conformed to very different standard levels as well.
12:28: So this also adds to the complexity on how to handle these relationships and how to really move forward and have everything but what we've seen is that there are a lot of different suppliers, and here I can mention, I don't know, mid caps or start ups.
12:43: There is a difference as well on what has been what a company has been doing for, I don't know, 15, 20 years.
12:49: And then there is a start up who comes up with another very intriguing idea for a different system.
12:55: What's going to be the trade off when it didn't reach t r L nine yet, but then there are other suppliers who have been doing this for a while, But then there could be a financial trade off as well.
13:05: It's a very interesting process, I have to say.
13:08: Can I ask you?
13:09: Have you at any stage considered, like seriously considered systems that that are not t r l nine no.
13:16: no.
13:16: OK, yes.
13:20: no.
13:20: Obviously, given the proprietary nature of the bus itself, there have to be some data developments onto if there's a similar system that has reached here online.
13:30: , then then obviously, this is something that we are looking into.
13:34: But no, it's a binary.
13:36: It's a binary criteria.
13:37: It is.
13:38: The thing is, obviously this is a very complex system on its own.
13:42: So there we want to mitigate risks as much as possible on a programme level.
13:46: Obviously, yeah, this is one of the hard requirements that we have.
13:49: Yeah, fantastic.
13:50: Actually, this leads into my next question as well, because your role one of your roles because you have this dual role.
13:56: But, , one of your roles is the business development at REM Redd and, , when relating to your previous experience as well now I wondered if you had based on the the development that Rem Red has done that we've just talked about.
14:09: I wonder if you had any advice for the suppliers on how they can do better at selling their products and their expertise, their capabilities to an organisation like you or another sort of competitor.
14:19: And obviously t R L nine being one of them.
14:22: But in terms of the actual business development approach, have you got any advice for the suppliers out there?
14:27: I think probably somewhat stemming from my experience from previous roles as well, from strategies that we've seen that we've implemented as well.
14:36: I can really summarise this in one word.
14:40: Visibility.
14:41: So I think.
14:43: And I know obviously you have to have all the technical know how to.
14:48: But that's I would say the easier part.
14:50: But then to have really a good marketing team to really raise awareness about the technologies that you are having, and this not only goes into the how do you market yourself, what channels you are active in, but this also means go to all the trade fairs because that's where the business is done.
15:08: Stand out, and this is somewhat marketing related as well.
15:12: Take the time to to reach out to businesses.
15:15: Follow up with them.
15:16: This is it's a It's nothing too novel in what I'm saying, but I we've seen in a lot of cases you go to a supplier potential suppliers website and it looks like it comes from 1998.
15:30: It's visibility you.
15:31: This is a very innovative sector, so you have suppliers have to really strengthen how they market themselves, how they get, , or make their company visible within the the the space industry and in different geographies as well.
15:51: , dependent on on on what their core focus is.
15:54: But I think this is also an area where everyone has to be very strategic.
15:58: Yeah, fantastic.
15:59: I think that's that's really good advice.
16:01: And I imagine for you the difference between the way that some of the space companies marketed themselves compared to what you saw in the tourism sector is pretty crazy.
16:10: Yeah, it's a stark contrast, but even within the space industry, I have I have talked about this on on on different panels as well and different conferences.
16:21: It is, I think people really underestimate, especially engineer led companies Really underestimate the power or the return on investment.
16:31: When it comes to how do you market yourself how you're really visible at trade fairs and meetings?
16:37: How you really leverage?
16:38: I don't know ESA opportunities and go to all the e.
16:41: S A conferences because maybe the first five times you go there, it won't be very successful, but you get into the minds of people, and, , I don't know, , potential, , buyers.
16:56: And maybe they won't be needing your technology at that point in time.
17:00: But what you really want to achieve is when they have a project where they need to source something, you become the first you become You, , the first they think of.
17:10: And this and it really it happened with us as well that we made these connections.
17:15: We build the relationship.
17:16: Nothing in terms of opportunities happened for 1.5 years.
17:19: But once the project came along where we really needed to where they needed something from us, we were the first day they talked to.
17:27: So this was what you've seen.
17:29: It's a very unpredictable sale cycle.
17:32: I would say it's very untraditional when we look at other industries, but one must must get used to it because this isn't really changing.
17:40: Yeah, absolutely.
17:41: Absolutely.
17:42: And I would say that this certainly should be done before t r l nine is achieved, if that's with where you are.
17:48: Indeed, indeed.
17:49: From the start, this means branding for not just the technology but the company itself.
17:55: Yeah, absolutely.
17:56: Because that kind of more ephemeral concept of team heritage company heritage, not the flight heritage of the hardware, but the heritage of the organisation to to have the chief success in missions in development in R and D.
18:09: Whatever.
18:10: It is important.
18:11: And as you say, this is really interesting.
18:12: This is really interesting technology, high level engineering, and there's an important story to tell for each of the companies out there trying to compete in this area.
18:21: So So go ahead and tell it.
18:24: Yeah, exactly.
18:25: And then there is and how people, or how companies, or how suppliers leverage technology as well or new platforms that come along.
18:33: Such search is a very good example of that as well, which is basically a marketplace between that connects suppliers and buyers.
18:40: These are all the channels that where you can really make a difference for yourself, where you very you will be visible to those target customers that you want to attract.
18:51: So that's a more focused way.
18:53: And there are technologies coming out daily monthly, where the space industry is developing at a very fast pace, and this doesn't only mean the technology upstream and downstream part, but all the auxiliary auxiliary service that are around them with newer new platforms that come along disrupting different parts of the value chains.
19:13: That was that no one thought about previously space loss.
19:18: There are all the other sectors or little niche segments that develop their companies, suppliers, buyers.
19:24: They all have to be aware of these changes.
19:26: Absolutely fantastic.
19:28: Thank you.
19:28: Yeah, absolutely.
19:30: with a new well relative to the others in on the that we've worked in a new operational environment in terms of space, and it requires a thorough, sophisticated level of technology to reach there.
19:42: But everything else aligned with that the laws, the the protocols, the data sharing and everything is needs to be sophisticated, too, because of the the nature of the environment is very different to Earth.
19:52: Yeah, that makes sense that people should be doing this communication and doing it early.
19:57: Doing it often thank you very much for that advice and for mentioning again as well, too.
20:02: I was.
20:02: That actually was going to be my next question.
20:04: We relate to our work now.
20:06: You work with us at that search on a trade study recently to source options for a mission.
20:11: A major mission.
20:12: I wonder if you could share a little bit about what you learned in this process.
20:16: Maybe beyond the points that you've made about how suppliers have shared issuess of compliant information.
20:21: Sorry on compliance and that sort of thing.
20:23: If there's anything else that stood out to you Yeah, sure.
20:28: So maybe I give a bit more context around the programme that we are running.
20:33: And what the little I don't know more comprehensive or strategic ideas behind these are so yes.
20:41: So when we came to this strategic pivot point at Drumlin OK, we want to get into small satellites.
20:50: What do we need to do?
20:52: In order to get there?
20:53: We need to build a manufacturing assembly, integration and test facility.
20:58: OK, for that you will need significant funding, especially if you want to do this specialised for the equipment that we want to build there either at scale or if you want to get into larger scale e s A projects.
21:11: So we were like, OK, we need to fundraise.
21:14: And what we did in the past year was went on an international fundraising spree to look at a strategic investor that really aligns with the vision that we have for rare as well and not just provides the necessary funds to get there.
21:33: So that's how we got into connection with four i G, which is a large scale telecommunications and I t integrator conglomerate here in Hungary and the Western Balkans and they had some strategic ideas on how they want to get into the space industry.
21:49: They made a couple strategic acquisitions along the satellite value chain, and their idea was and or our idea at this point was to become a vertically integrated, remote sensing data service provider and also telecommunications satellite telecommunications data provider for commercial and institutional entities as well.
22:11: And that's how we became the portfolio company of the space manufacturing arm of four I G Space and Defence Technologies.
22:20: And this was basically in in parallel with their strategy.
22:25: So what four i G Space and Defence Technologies aimed was to have the infrastructure to become this remote sensing service provider.
22:36: And this is how we really went into the satellite bus or platform development, , route basically to have a constellation of low earth orbit satellites to provide elect tropical and down the line synthetic apart radar imaging technologies.
22:55: And that's how we started to develop our bus with the with this in mind.
22:59: And this is when we partnered with so search on the very initial again.
23:06: I'm I'm sorry.
23:06: I'm going to repeat myself a bit here, but there were some subsystems where we really wanted to, that we really wanted to develop in house proprietary, which were the most important subsystems that we thought would be necessary or very.
23:20: And this is when the development of commercial space really comes into play, there are brilliant suppliers and companies who just to give an example.
23:32: Who made these brilliant propulsion systems for us as a space engineering company to develop our own, I don't know, proprietary propulsion system that would take long, long years, and it and and very probably if I'm being completely honest, we wouldn't be able to create propulsion systems that would work as well as technology from a company that has been doing this for the past 20 years, obviously.
23:57: And so we really chose those subsystems where we where we saw OK, these we will not be able or don't want to start helping capabilities in, but want to buy them from the cove some parts for our bus and really build out very resilient supply chain not just for the first Sally, but the subsequent s that you want to build.
24:18: And then the subsequent potential models that you want to build because the first satellite you want to have a very redundant, very well working larger scale approx 300 to 400 kilogramme platform, a tropical platform to be built.
24:33: So how do we want to puzzle everything together and such?
24:37: Search has been incremental.
24:39: The trade study that we did together was incremental in really launching the process of us to get into conversation with these companies, then to really create these tradeoffs, get the learnings and then really advance in the process of how our bus on the system level, , will look like.
25:02: And we're well into the, , process.
25:05: Still.
25:05: Now, obviously, it would be very good if this whole process could have been, , completed.
25:11: , in this, , in the span of, I don't know, 68 months.
25:15: Unfortunately, that's not the case, But we are having very good experiences with from both the supplier part and working with such search on this.
25:23: It has been incremental for our way of working or for us to really get into and launch this process because self search had the network the necessary network to help us find or help us guide towards suppliers who Yes, thank you for the kind words and for sharing the information, the project there.
25:43: When you put it into the context of your the background of since you mentioned the strategic pivot that Reed underwent, it really makes sense.
25:52: The approach that you guys are taking back to the as you mentioned being pragmatic but forging ahead and yeah, you mentioned the time things take these.
26:02: These are complex conversations, right backwards of back and forth with suppliers.
26:06: They take time data sharing, iterated on the designs.
26:09: Yeah, space is hard and this is this is, unfortunately an aspect of it.
26:12: But I'm glad that things are progressing really well for you guys.
26:16: Yes, it is.
26:16: And that's my favourite sentence.
26:18: Actually, space is hard.
26:19: It's such an easy sentence to say, but it's so very true on so many levels.
26:24: This is always what I started with as well, and it is hard you shared some really great information with us today.
26:30: is about the work that REM Red is doing and the way that you guys are approaching it, and the supply chain advice for suppliers out there, how they could do better in this industry.
26:39: I think it's it's been great, really, really appreciate you being so open and honest with us about the organisation.
26:43: I think people will really have a much better.
26:46: The listeners of this podcast, who maybe weren't so familiar, will have a much better understanding of REM Red of what you're doing of where you're going.
26:52: And, yeah, so I think it's a great.
26:54: But I do like to finish up with the these podcasts with a variation of this question.
26:59: Wherever possible.
27:00: I wondered what you personally are most excited about in the space industry over the next.
27:07: I don't know.
27:07: Let's say 55 years, especially it would be really interesting because you've not been in the industry for for five years.
27:13: Yeah, right.
27:14: You said 2020.
27:15: So, yeah, so that yeah, So what do you think?
27:18: So I have a I would say, two prone answer to this.
27:22: The easy answer, which is which obviously, is more business related or what?
27:28: I'm really seeing nice baby steps being taken.
27:33: But I think this is what really is going to define the space industry.
27:37: On the data side as well is how I really hold.
27:41: In the next five years, there is going to be , more awareness in adjacent industries about how space drive data can be used because I think people in the space industry are very much aware on how these downstream, how downstream data could potentially be utilised, and we always discuss it amongst ourselves.
28:04: But I think in adjacent industries, I don't know, energy, agriculture.
28:08: There needs to be much more education on how space based data can really be utilised.
28:14: , and this I think, from a business perspective is is something that is really going to drive growth, , within the sector, because I think we don't talk about it, talk with people or decision makers in these adjacent industries.
28:29: Enough on the on.
28:31: The more I think exciting part or more technological part.
28:34: I'm really very much hoping that a lot of development is going to go towards the this c lunar economy or I would rather say What I'm most excited about is we have a very clear idea that we want to get to the moon and what I'm very interested to see on what enabling technologies will be developed for us to get there.
29:00: And I think there's going to be so many new niche or more niche technology streams that will be opened up through these enabling technologies.
29:10: What I'm most excited about to see and I think we are getting very into it is in orbit, assembly, in orbit, manufacturing and hopefully into to resource utilisation.
29:23: I think these are all the enabling technologies that will develop very rapidly in the upcoming five years.
29:28: Fantastic.
29:29: I think that's a great place to to wrap up.
29:32: Thank you.
29:32: That's yeah, really exciting opportunities there that on both of the terrestrial side of things, the data side of things, which is very important.
29:42: That is obviously the key one of the one of the key, , methods of value exchange in the industry today.
29:47: And, yeah, seeing how these sort of more complex more maybe from a functionality point of view or more exciting technologies, you could say, Oh, Yeah, sorry.
30:00: I was just agreeing.
30:01: Yeah, the one is the boring business part.
30:04: But then on the technological side, I think there's a lot of development that is going to really change things within the It would be great to see how this year sector of the industry progresses as well.
30:16: Thank you very much.
30:17: Thank you for everything you've shared with us today.
30:19: And I'm sure our listeners would be really grateful for it.
30:22: Just really appreciate you taking the time.
30:24: Thank you very much, Howell.
30:25: It was a pleasure to have a conversation.
30:27: Thank you.
30:28: And to all our listeners out there, thank you very much for spending time with us, too.
30:31: Today on the space industry, podcast by set, we'll share information and in the show notes about re reds work about REM Reds mission so you could find out plenty more about company about what they've been doing.
30:43: And yeah, keep definitely.
30:45: It's an organisation to keep an eye on for all of the reasons that you've hopefully heard and understood today in this podcast.
30:52: And please, if you do like the conversation that we've had today, do give us a quick rating and review on your favourite podcast player.
30:59: It really helps prod those algorithms to to share the show more widely, so we'd really appreciate that.
31:06: And do stay tuned for the next episode of the space industry podcast.
31:09: Thank you very much.
31:19: thank you for listening to this episode of the space industry by set search.
31:23: I hope you enjoyed today's story about one of the companies taking us into orbit.
31:26: We'll be back soon with more in depth behind the scenes insights from private space businesses.
31:31: In the meantime, you can go to set search dot com for more information on the space industry today or find us on social media.
31:37: If you have any questions or comments, stay up to date.
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