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On this International Women’s Day, we’re thrilled to launch Season 2 of Ladies Who Create with an episode that celebrates innovation, resilience, and the power of female leadership. In this inspiring conversation, our guest Rachel Gogel shares her unique journey—from growing up in the vibrant cultural landscape of Paris to making a remarkable mark as a creative leader in the U.S. Rachel opens up about her rapid ascent to art director in her 20s and how her diverse experiences have shaped her career.
She delves into the evolution of fractional leadership and explains how designing your time intentionally can transform not only your professional life but also your personal well-being. Rachel’s insights reveal the value of embracing flexible work models that empower women to lead, mentor, and advocate for pay equity while staying true to their creative passions.
Join us as we explore the intersections of culture, creativity, and leadership on a day dedicated to celebrating the achievements of women everywhere.
Join us as we explore the intersections of culture, creativity, and leadership on a day dedicated to celebrating the achievements of women everywhere.
Tune in for a conversation that’s both a celebration and a call to action, inspiring women to carve their own paths and redefine what it means to lead with purpose.
About Rachel:
Rachel Gogel (she/her) is an independent creative executive whose career has followed the rise and dominance of an entire era of digital design. Since founding her SF-based consultancy in 2020, she has brought her expertise to both major companies like Dropbox and women-founded ventures such as Chicken & Egg Films. Currently serving as an interim creative director at Airbnb, Rachel brings strategic leadership to global organizations on a fractional basis while exploring the dynamic intersection of design, culture, and technology. Before launching her business, she built multidisciplinary teams at GQ, The New York Times, Facebook, and Godfrey Dadich. Passionate about nurturing the next generation of creative talent, Rachel divides her time between consulting and education. She teaches Career Design Lab at California College of the Arts’ DMBA program and offers an on-demand course through the School of The New York Times. Her commitment to mentorship extends through platforms like ADPList, Talk To A Creative Director, and AIGA NY, building on her role as AIGA SF’s Women in Leadership & Design chair (2021–24). A queer advocate championing marginalized voices, Rachel addresses industry inequities through speaking engagements, published writing, and active involvement in purpose-driven initiatives. Recognized on Forbes and Inc.’s “30 under 30” lists, she later earned a 2022 Webby nomination for spearheading the Departures rebrand. Her insights have been featured in PRINT, Creative Review, Fast Company, and Design by Women. After hours, you can find Rachel museum hopping, playing basketball, or plotting her eventual return to her beloved hometown of Paris.
rachelgogel.com
About Rachel:
Rachel Gogel (she/her) is an independent creative executive whose career has followed the rise and dominance of an entire era of digital design. Since founding her SF-based consultancy in 2020, she has brought her expertise to both major companies like Dropbox and women-founded ventures such as Chicken & Egg Films. Currently serving as an interim creative director at Airbnb, Rachel brings strategic leadership to global organizations on a fractional basis while exploring the dynamic intersection of design, culture, and technology. Before launching her business, she built multidisciplinary teams at GQ, The New York Times, Facebook, and Godfrey Dadich. Passionate about nurturing the next generation of creative talent, Rachel divides her time between consulting and education. She teaches Career Design Lab at California College of the Arts’ DMBA program and offers an on-demand course through the School of The New York Times. Her commitment to mentorship extends through platforms like ADPList, Talk To A Creative Director, and AIGA NY, building on her role as AIGA SF’s Women in Leadership & Design chair (2021–24). A queer advocate championing marginalized voices, Rachel addresses industry inequities through speaking engagements, published writing, and active involvement in purpose-driven initiatives. Recognized on Forbes and Inc.’s “30 under 30” lists, she later earned a 2022 Webby nomination for spearheading the Departures rebrand. Her insights have been featured in PRINT, Creative Review, Fast Company, and Design by Women. After hours, you can find Rachel museum hopping, playing basketball, or plotting her eventual return to her beloved hometown of Paris.
rachelgogel.com
@rgogel (IG, Threads, X)
rachelgogel.bsky.social (Bluesky)
Creators & Guests
What is Ladies Who Create?
A podcast highlighting extraordinary women in the design and creative industry. Hosted by Jess Rosenberg and Liz Meyer.
Rachel Gogel
===
[00:00:00]
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Well we are live. Thank you Rachel for spending time with us today. This is our first episode of season two of Ladies Who Create and we're so excited to have you here with us.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited for the conversation.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yes, we are.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I think on Everyone's mind is fractional design, it's not part time. It's not running an agency. It's not necessarily being a freelancer.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I see I'm noticing definitely a lot of people explore this path, or at least ask a lot of questions. There's a lot of curiosity about what the fractional leadership world can look like. So yeah, happy to dig into that today.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: yeah, I'm excited too.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Let's jump back into your early career first. Um, you grew up in Paris, right? So it's, there's so much art and history and [00:01:00] culture. Did you ever feel like living there and growing up there sparked that moment for you that you decided to become a creative?
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: It's a great question, so
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: first off, I would say so my parents are originally from the U. S. I was born and raised there. I don't have a strong accent. A lot of people don't automatically know that's my still my hometown. And I did leave when I was 17 and moved to the United States for university. Which is where I studied design at the university of Pennsylvania. Fun fact, I am moving back to Paris later this year after living in the U S more than half my life, which.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: that's awesome.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Hey. for many reasons. I think it shaped me mainly, around just this idea of going up in the city. When you're young, feel like you take a lot for granted. You don't really [00:02:00] realize what. What's around you and how it may affect you in the future. I was walking to school on my own, I was taking the public transportation. And I was surrounded by so much history just in the architecture and just the natural beauty that Paris provides. I didn't appreciate, I think, just this concept of even going to museums or seeing art until I think at least high school or later in high school or college. But I often talk about the fact that I think so much of just being surrounded by, Typography and signage and print ephemera and just so much beauty, I think, probably just affected my craft sensibilities or even my taste subconsciously and I looking back, I'm just very grateful that I was surrounded by. All of that, but in the moment, I don't think I [00:03:00] realized it as consciously just how it would affect me as a designer. But I did end up doing a lot of art early on in my life. And a lot of it was mixed media and collage. And That impacted what I did in high school and kind of assembling my portfolio and me figuring out what I wanted to do as I was looking at schools in the United States, was just making sure that I could have a liberal arts education, which is less common in France in terms of exploring, what you want to do and not being pigeonholed in one thing automatically when you're so young. But I did want to study art or at least go deep in art history and design and so I was lucky enough to find a program where I could do that and also explore a lot of other things. But I did put together a portfolio and ended declaring my major early when I did end up in school, and fell in love with [00:04:00] graphic design very early on, and I didn't realize this at the time, but I was on the yearbook committee in high school like many of us probably were using early days Photoshop when the feather was still the icon,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yes. Quark Express.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And submitting cover designs for the yearbook and just experimenting and playing and asking a lot of questions. And so again, I think I think so much of my upbringing shaped me. There was so much in this, the being in that city, being in Europe. But then also I was exposed to a lot of cultures growing up.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Thanks to my dad's job, they it allowed us to travel a lot as a family when I was young, actually, mostly around Asia, less so in Europe. And so I think Between that, I'm very conscious of that privilege of being able to travel so young growing up in Paris. And [00:05:00] then having a, a family where I would spend summers in the U. S. Just because my parents are from the States and I would see my family. It just exposed me to so much. And I was just like a sponge absorbing so much related to it. Culture and art and design and I, I just didn't realize it as much at the time, but I know it shaped who I am and the type of person what I'm attracted to. I actually, not many people know this, but I ended up minoring in anthropology at university
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: makes sense. Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: my love of culture and organizational culture and just working with people as a leader there's a lot of kind of connection and me just trying to understand and research and different cultures around the world.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I don't know. I guess that balanced my communication design major and I don't know, just loved it. And I am excited to go back as an adult. I know it's going to be a different [00:06:00] experience. But I'm excited to for the opportunity and the challenge. Who knows how it will shape me for this next chapter of my life.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: That's so exciting. I'm so curious to hear. You'll have to let us know eventually.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: For sure.
Just You know, that's amazing. Like the ability to travel and just experience those things. It's, I take it for granted that I live so close to New York city and grew up around here and so did Jess, I feel like it's you're young, you don't realize what you're exposed to and you're absorbing possibly, and you're just. You're just living it. You're not understanding the impact it might have in your future. But I think it's maybe on the parents to be like, Hey, let's do these things. These are,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: There is something there I think about when you were saying, you know, your experience is imprinted on your subconscious and you didn't even [00:07:00] realize it likely. I definitely think there's validity in that. Growing up, my parents just. It felt like they dragged my sister and I to museums, like whether we're traveling or New York or in Paris.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: And at the time we're like, why are you doing this? This is the worst thing ever. But I'm sure it shaped us. Like we saw great art and saw a lot of great things in our travels that I'm sure had an effect on us, whether we actively realize it or not. It's funny. When you're talking about Paris and like museums and everything, when we were in France when our older daughters were younger.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: They did not want to go to a museum and we had to bribe them. And we told them that the Louvre was at the Louvre was Belle's mom, AKA the Mona Lisa, the beauty and the beast. We're like, we're going to see Belle's mom. It's going to be awesome. We're going the castle that Belle lives in. And they were like, yeah.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: And the whole time they're like, wait, so. When are we seeing Belle's mom? Like all day. And we had to keep being like, oh, we're going, it's, she's coming, she's coming. And then finally we get [00:08:00] to the Mona Lisa painting and both of them fell asleep.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: And so we had to take a picture of the Mona Lisa And show them Belle's mom after the fact.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: And they were so confused. They were like, what? Like, that's not what? So the
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: anecdote we
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: the bribery is real
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: making up whatever you need.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Yeah. No something I didn't mention is I, upon reflection too, I when I would spend summers in the U S I did go to a summer camp. In Maine, actually my American cousins would go there and they had a really good experience and we did.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: It was, lots of art and sports. And, this was from the age of 7 to when I was a teenager and it was just, it was fun to experiment with all kinds of media and art forms and crafts and. Again, while you assume that most kids, create crafts and make art and maybe at some point just decide to stop. I think so much of that pushed me or [00:09:00] made me comfortable with this idea of play and experimentation and, I didn't know what design was but it definitely shaped me as a creative and I do appreciate being able to the fact that I was able to try a lot of different art forms and figure out over time what I was really passionate about. And that I'm able to do that in my career full time is such a privilege.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: That's awesome.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: feel like we should, we could go on so many tangents right now. Like how's the best way to, to raise a, an artist
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah,
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: because that's what we're trying to do.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Also,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: I know, especially you look like your daughter has a whole Instagram account.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: That's like pretty active and her
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: drawings are amazing.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: That's amazing.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: developing I work at Shopify now, so I'm like heavily invested in making her a shop and she's get me my shop,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: little
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: entrepreneur.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: has
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: [00:10:00] so
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: on me.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Actually the entrepreneurial spirit part of it. I get met from my dad a lot of that, which I, I think the kind of business acumen and me even being able to run my own business or feeling confident enough to do that. And then my mom was an artist in kind of her own way.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: She, when she moved to France she was taking art classes and she's very talented. And like the most recent thing she's made for me is she hand hand wrote for my Ketubah, which is the Jewish marriage contract between me and my wife, which is amazing. And it looks like really, it's like beautiful.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And definitely between the surroundings of Paris and obviously my parents. So much of that shaped who I am today. So it starts to make sense when you really think about it, but yeah,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: That's beautiful too.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I love that.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Okay. Super curious about your early career. Early in your 20s, you somewhat kind of like climbed the ranks [00:11:00] very quickly and became an art director at a pretty young age, a design director. That's a milestone most creatives might not see until much later in their careers. Can you maybe take us back to that time?
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: What did it feel like to rise so quickly? And how did you kind of navigate those opportunities and challenges that came with the role?
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: sure. So I would say I graduated college without a job just to set the scene. It was the recession. I could not find a job. Like I looked at, everywhere I was. There was a hiring freeze and I specifically wanted to work in magazines. So I was pretty determined to really just apply in that field only to then realize, okay, it's really hard to get in the door.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I'm going to widen my search, which is what led me to become an intern in the fashion world. I was working for Diane von Furstenberg. studio in New York at her store in there like marketing [00:12:00] art department, which was supposed to be a four month gig, but it ended up, I loved it so much that I extended it and they, it allowed me to interview on the side so that I could really figure out what I wanted to do next. And I think that experience was really because it taught me a lesson really early on that, Even if you're determined to work within a field or an industry or look for a specific role that by widening your search early on in your career and being a little bit more open minded, it allowed me to just understand that Design is needed everywhere. And that your skillset actually is very valuable for many industries. And you'd be surprised to see and firsthand how all kinds of industries may benefit from working with someone like you with your skillsets. And I learned that really early on. And I also just even personally, [00:13:00] I would say I'm not necessarily someone who's into fashion. Kind of naturally or but it was a really great learning experience. But I was an intern. I wasn't making that much money. I was trying to figure out how to get into magazines and my persistent outreach through email is what led me to a phone call. with someone at GQ. And I really wanted to work at GQ. Unfortunately, they had no roles for me, but she knew someone at Travel and Leisure who was looking for a junior designer. So at least that would get me in the door and in the magazine world. And I was happy. I landed a junior designer role. And I'm sharing this because for the first I was on let's say a more common, steady path, just getting started in my career with very common roles. But I think because I was trying to figure out what to do and the recession as the backdrop, I started freelancing really early to make [00:14:00] money and also to build my portfolio and meet people which is what actually led me to some freelance gigs. For GQ. So while full time, they didn't need anyone, there was some work coming out of GQ and they actually hired me as a freelance designer to build a WordPress website for them which I didn't know how to use WordPress.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I just learned for this gig. And WordPress was still relatively new. But I share that again, because I started building these relationships with people. And, I also, it's not like I was charging that much, but I was learning really quickly on the fly, just like the value of my time and my skill sets.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And there were many lessons, even just in how I should charge that I learned. And people were helping me out. Even when I got that freelance gig I'll never forget a conversation with my future boss at GQ, who, essentially pushed back on what I was quoting and [00:15:00] said, this is too little and she encouraged me to charge differently and it, that it wasn't her money, it was, Condé Nast money,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I should charge what I think it's worth.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And she like really taught me a valuable lesson early on. Anyway, I was a travel and leisure study path, but I, wasn't there that long. I ended up actually doing a bit of contract work for NBC universal as a, like a freelance designer. And and then that's when GQ called. And because I was a freelance, partner at the time, they already knew me and this woman essentially encouraged me to put my name in the ring for someone who had just left, who was much more senior than me.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: She was an art director. She was someone who I even worked with in an internship scenario at Conde Nast the summer before, so I knew her. And so there were a few relationships that were built into that [00:16:00] GQ kind of entry into the magazine world that I was always dreaming of. But I never thought I would. Get her job. I was definitely much more junior than her, but I think because of the relationship that we had and the kind of trust that had been already built, she encouraged me to apply and they settled on an associate art director title. I thought it was crazy. I, it was very quick. I I know there's the term imposter syndrome, which like, looking back, I'm sure I felt very like I, I lacked the confidence because I had never had a role like that and thought that maybe it was premature to put me in that role. But a lot of different things happened very quickly. So I basically entered on an, as an associate art director. It was a manager role, a people manager role, which again, I had never been a people leader before. But I did learn really quickly how much I [00:17:00] loved people leadership and just forming those relationships.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And mind you, all of my team, they were all older than me all more experienced than me. But I just had to lean into it. And I had a lot of one on one sessions with people early on to understand where they were at and what they needed. But it, Pushed me more because the story that sometimes I tell it's true.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: My first day, my team took me out to lunch. My boss was this creative director who was quite renowned and he had been at GQ for a long time, and he told me that he had put his two weeks notice on my first day, so it was basically a, hey, welcome to the team, and also, I'm leaving,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: no.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And yeah, surprise.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So actually, I think the role itself, was set up so that even if I had some management responsibilities, he was still the kind of overarching manager of [00:18:00] him. And so it was less daunting when I joined. Or what I thought the role would be but in a two weeks period, he tried to, share a lot of institutional knowledge as much as he
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: could and then left. And so I actually had to almost up level like really quickly because there was a gap, at the kind of creative direction level. And that was a gap for a long time. Until actually the woman who left whose job I ended up filling, she actually came back,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Oh, nice.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: which is awesome. And you were friends and she was the woman I knew and had hired me for that freelance gig initially. And so that gap was what really pushed me to step up for that challenge and become uh, and I think that just forced the, maybe the faster paced growth. Because I was essentially playing a lot of roles and wearing many different hats. [00:19:00] And like it happens a lot in publishing. There was a change in publisher very early on when I started, which meant that I had to prove myself early to earn that position because often when a new publisher joins, they bring in their creative team. And the current team often gets replaced. And so that was a test for me, almost like If I could prove myself early on to this new publisher and earn my right to be there, then, that could help me.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I think all of these different circumstances is what pushed me to up level really quickly, even though it's not like I really knew what I was doing. I just.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Saw certain opportunities and then tried to rise to the occasion and was really hard and I learned a lot and I built a lot of relationships across the departments even with the newsroom and really just did my [00:20:00] best and I did get promoted three times which I'm very grateful and I did leave as design director
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: and I was still only, in my mid 20s. So
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I'm glad you asked that. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of learnings and many people couldn't probably relate with situations where their boss leaves, there's gaps in leadership new executives come in and want to change everything. So what do you do?
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And, I was still in my 20s, so I had a lot of energy.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Now, maybe less, but I was trying to do my best. And I really loved the work and the job. And I still think really fondly about my time at GQ magazine. Yeah,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: That's such a great story.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Thanks for sharing that.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah I feel like that idea of it's not like you're networking,
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: and trying to climb a ladder, like a lot of the things that happened with your career early on just were outcomes [00:21:00] of you just being willing to work and being happy with taking the projects that you were getting and, just looking to learn about it.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. New situations. I think that's like the biggest thing I've learned in the past couple years is like you don't know what you don't know, you can go out and learn, but unless you're like plopped into a situation, you don't know how to handle the situation yet.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: So you can't read. Can't read literature on how do you up level your craft? There's no way to do that without, doing the work to up level. So yeah, I just think it's great that you got your foot in the door in a way that was like very natural you just kept taking those challenges.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: That's really cool.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I feel, it was also just an interesting time in publishing. There was the rise of interactive print tablet was the [00:22:00] hot new thing. Everyone was reading against the iPad thinking it was going to take over the mobile. Phone and, obviously that penetrated the market and then was really exciting, but I think that was really the job where I realized how much I love the intersection of emerging technology culture and design and how that would impact companies. And I, because of those personal interests of mine, I would try and understand what was happening in culture or technology and then try and bring that back to my company or to my, to my role so that I could help figure out where we need to be. And so it's possible that, that curiosity of mine that was just like a personal passion and kind of bringing that back to the job is maybe contributed. To my role developing the way that it did just because I was trying to bring a lot of innovation or new newness to [00:23:00] how we could do what we were doing, which I was on the marketing side of GQ. And really trying to push the quality of advertising. And what's called, or at least at the time advertorials, like up leveling how advertising should look and bridging the gap.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And like even introducing a table of contents for ads like that obviously was never a thing. It probably isn't anymore. And whoever replaced me probably got rid of that idea, but it was a thing for many years. Which as if you're an advertiser, that's like a big deal.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: totally.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So anyway, really so much fun.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I think back to that time, and it was the definitely the golden age or one of the golden ages of print. And I and just working at Condé Nast like during the glory days, which I know that things have changed a lot since then.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah, I was a freelance illustrator during that time. We might've worked together as some point, cause I did a lot of advertorials and a lot of infographics and
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Amazing.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: [00:24:00] such. And,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Figure out if like our past lives were connected.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I'm sure in my emails or something, or at least in my
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: I was in advertising during that time, specifically like interactive art direction, and it really was the golden age for advertising then too, because campaigns are shifting from like traditional media into the digital landscape. So I think it's a common theme for like. The early two thousands was like things were becoming more online and agencies and publications were figuring out how to make it work and how to make it creative.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: It's definitely a fun time.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: and the budgets were not bad for freelancers. So livable, like you could actually live on the,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Totally. What happened?
I will say this, just even thinking about that time, it is worth noting. I think because of the fact that I got the role that I did at GQ and then my career started to fast track certain people were reaching out to me, asking if I [00:25:00] had. Similar other designers who maybe had a similar background and that they were asking for referrals often, and it became a little overwhelming and I was busy.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I decided to run a newsletter for many years to help people get. Mostly in the magazine industry, actually on the kind of advertising marketing side, and it was called creative jobs, the list, which I know is very original and it was the concept was that if had the link to this newsletter. It was all kind of word of mouth.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So it was, I started with my friends. And then if you had that link, you could subscribe your other friends. That also, I think just organically grew my network because I was I, what, first of all, I wasn't charging for this newsletter and I was not taking a cut if you got a job from it either. So it was just an, like an altruistic way of helping people get jobs and removing the middle woman [00:26:00] from the equation because I would basically it would be like the title, your description, and then the email of the person directly and not like you going through
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: a recruiter or career, random email address or anything like that, but that for years Actually opened many doors for people and I ended up meeting just a lot of people through it and I didn't realize that at the time that was not for that purpose but I think just again that even from for me now as a as an independent There are people still that sometimes say, Oh, I once received your newsletter.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: You never know how like things
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Happen. And
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: it was that newsletter that actually got me the. the. Facebook job and why I moved out to California because one of the subscribers was a was someone who eventually six years later became a meta employee and he put my name in the ring for that job.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So you just never know.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Karma.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: totally. That's so awesome. I love that. I found similar anecdotes with like this podcast. I was judging like a one, like a local [00:27:00] one show portfolio review thing in Austin recently. And one of the students, she's like, Oh my God, I'm such a fan of your podcast. And I was like, Oh my God, thank you. Like, it was just so surprising to hear like the reach that this show has had, especially for women.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: And so it was definitely one of those moments where, you know, it's cool to, to hear when people are paying attention and listening and that you've
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: that.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I love what you both are doing. I will say. Just like on the record. I love that you started this podcast and it's so important to tell these stories and the fact that you've only had one season and it's already reaching people in a lot of places it's really cool. So I'm glad to be here to thank you for having me.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: to talk to people that are inspiring to us, so we assume we'll be inspiring the other people because, we've, I don't know, we all have these, paths that we go down by ourselves and try to navigate our jobs, [00:28:00] our lives, our families. balancing all of it. It's like everyone else has these same struggles too, but we're just not really talking about it because we're, if we show any vulnerability, we're seen as weak or something, but it's, that's not what it is.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: We need support and community. And we need to hear the stories of other women that have also done the same annoying things that we've had to do and feel less alone. So
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I feel that, especially as a solopreneur, like I don't have a business partner. I don't have a team necessarily full time. Like that community is so important and I, it's conversations like this and one on one conversations that I have, or even with clients or other people I meet, you just you realize like how important it just, it is.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And that actually it's all around you. You just have to look up and sometimes obviously it takes a little bit of effort, but there's [00:29:00] so many people going through similar situations.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: It's,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: yeah, I know you mentioned fractional earlier.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I don't know if that's
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I'm so fascinated
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: would love to pivot into that. And you said something when we're emailing the other day that I literally have not been able to stop thinking about because it totally shifted my perspective on how you define fractional leadership. And it was around designing your time and that the fractional part is actually just one fraction of your overall time versus like a freelance creative director.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: I'd love to hear more from you about how you define that and how fractional consulting is just. One part of your career in addition to many other things that you do.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Sure. First off, if you're new to the term fractional I can't take credit for it at all. I will say that like quick history in terms of my understanding of it, it's a term that has been around for a while, but often was used for C suite executives, like CEOs and CMOs and. The idea is [00:30:00] that you can hire someone for a fraction of the time and a fraction of the cost.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: But ideally, it's a win situation because you're charging higher fees and you're paying for value and experience. But a few years ago I had noticed someone used the term on LinkedIn in my field. So more in the kind of creative leadership design leadership space. And it sparked something for me because I started my practice in October, 2020. And I struggled to figure out what to call myself. And I use the term, independent design executive most often. But I do a lot of work in a fractional capacity. And I, but at the time I thought I was clever by coming up with titles like independent creative and culture officer playing on the word, the acronym CCO. No one understood what that meant. It caused a lot of confusion. [00:31:00] People thought I was an HR like it just,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I don't know, I didn't, I will say I I was conscious early on not to use the word freelance because to me, freelance felt more relevant to the earlier part of my career when I was actually freelancing outside of my full time job, I would take on gigs and that was freelance.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And sometimes when I bring that up with other. friends more at my level now, if they're using that term, I try and understand like why they're using it. Or, because I often will say, I feel like freelance feels a little bit more like a side gig, or maybe you're more, a bit more junior. And you're just starting out, or it's something that, you're doing in addition to your full time job. But I can understand if, if clients see it as, okay, that person's a freelancer, generally as a term that's something that's different than being full time, maybe you can say that because you're self [00:32:00] employed. But I very early on did not use that term.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: It just didn't feel right for what I feel like I'm offering and what I'm doing, knowing that this is my full time gig now. So yeah, I I really did struggle to figure out that positioning, but the fractional term unlocked so much and I have seen it change now. Like ever since I started using the term, a lot of people whether due to layoffs. of middle management layers or just more people, taking that step into self employment when they're more senior and want to do a lot more kind of strategic thought partnership with clients. I think I've just seen the term get adopted more and it's more easily understood, but it's still not adopted everywhere.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I still get a lot of questions about it. But just in the quickest way of [00:33:00] describing at least what I do for fractional and then I'm happy to talk about this designing my time concept. But often I will say I can help companies through a transitional period or be leveraged. As a cost efficient way to introduce a lot of like top tier, like senior thinking into an organization. And it really can be for, whether you're an early stage, a startup founder, or even a very resourceful hiring manager, you can relate to the fact that it takes a while to find a full time design leader for your longterm needs. Like it can take anywhere between. For five months, even longer. And so once I figured that out and again, like looked back at my career, I realized that I was really attracted and honestly thrived in. Times of change, like at that selection point for a brand where something's either broken or something doesn't exist and I need to, help [00:34:00] build something.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So for the, for all of those jobs that I had full time, I love the kind of building of a team. Like when I was at the New York times. That was the idea. I helped found T Brand Studio, which is still around today. I was their first creative director. And I loved when it was like, something that doesn't really exist.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: You're planting the seed, you're rolling up your sleeves, you're building something, you're identifying the resources needed for the team to thrive and to a scale. But once it gets set up and things are a little bit more on autopilot, I tend to get bored. And I realized that about myself. I know there are a lot of people who prefer. The later stage of when something is a little bit more formed and there's a process and it's working. And, but I liked the earlier part. So fractional leadership is really a flexible model where organizations can engage like more seasoned professionals to drive in this case, design initiatives or brand initiatives for a fraction of the time, hence the term [00:35:00] fractional. And often it can be part time or it could be per project. And I feel like I, I've now have done it a few times where I feel like I can provide a range of benefits. And I've hopefully can provide a lot of value. It's been a great experience in figuring out that sweet spot for clients, even in terms of how much time, that engagement should be, how much I should charge. And usually I end my engagements by helping hire my full time replacement,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: which
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: is incredible.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I do end up kind of offering some kind of sourcing or helping them with the interview loops or being that and that can gut check if that full time person is, can do the job and even train them as they started, which has been really fun. So usually it's a lower commitment solution, but with a, a great return on investment, essentially.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: What kind of like [00:36:00] deliverables do you typically provide, like in order to feel that, that the engagement has been like a success for everybody involved. Do you, is it like setting up a team, making sure everyone is up to par? Is it like setting up all the docs and the project management? I don't know.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Operational.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: the quickest answer is that it depends on what they need in that moment in time. And so I'll usually. Quickly diagnose what's needed. And then propose that, like within the, based on that first conversation with whoever's hiring me, whether that's the CMO or someone else that'll be baked into the proposal.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I usually frame it as potential impact areas because it'll change. And and then, depending on if it's a project fee or hourly or something like that, it's very [00:37:00] flexible. Which was part of the draw that it's not always clear what the deliverables are, but that there's trust in the kind of, because I'm more senior that I'm using my hours efficiently and wisely, and then, and only focusing on the things that I think rise to the top in that moment in time. And then sometimes I'm able to. To do it. Sometimes I go on tangents if they need me on something else. But it's a great question. I, it's all of the above of what you just basically and maybe more and maybe less but just like your question about the designing your time thing. It's something I've really have worked hard to figure out because part of the reason I wanted to go out on my own was because I. I really did want to figure out how to I guess use my time more intentionally. And I was also dealing with a lot of health issues and I still am unrelated to COVID, but just chronic stuff that I [00:38:00] think forced the this idea of balance. Or if I'm going to use my time towards something that it, I'm also understanding how that'll impact my body and my mind because of what I've been going through. And so I was just much more conscious of where my time was going. The fractional work. Yeah. Over the last few years, if I'm able to play my cards usually it ends up really only being, I don't know, 40, 45 percent of my time for the year. If you
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Calculate it compared to, how people tend to spend Their time at a full time 40 hour week,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And it's a little bit different right now in this moment because I'm actually experimenting with a maternity coverage gig, which I have never done and that commitment is actually more full time, but it's a short term contract, like obviously she's going to come back and
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: then I'll but for most, mostly, most of the fractional [00:39:00] gigs have been part time and they've been structured differently.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Like last summer, I was able to do two at once because of the fact that they were both part time. And so I'm really living this idea of taking fraction literally because
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: it really only a fraction of where my time goes. And that's because I'm charging enough to make that, the hours be more efficient. And then it allows me to do all these other things that I still, I, to me are very important and contribute to my career. So I'm a part time adjunct at the California College of the Arts in their MBA design strategy program. Actually this semester, I start on Sunday.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Ooh, that's so cool. I didn't know they had that.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I know, it's super cool. It's, yeah, it's been a program, I think it's been around for about 16 years or
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I didn't know it was there and it's been around for 16 years.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: least it's they're in their 16th cohort, so i'm [00:40:00] just
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: That's amazing though. That's yeah, that's my, I'm always like, should I just get an MBA? To understand what are we, what's the next step?
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: totally. This program is very interesting in that it's a low residency program so you can have a full time job and do this which I find really interesting, but yeah, i've been able to make time for that again, which I used to teach when I was in new york, but it would be like after hours at sva and but it's nice to feel like I can design, make teaching part of how I live my life and not have it be squeezed in, as an after hours thing. I do some speaking gigs, which also over the last few years, I am able to be able to charge and that it's some, it's a, obviously a smaller income stream, but it's still something if anything, it's more about building community and just. Yeah, I've, I, it's been really fun to be able to meet other speakers and also just hear what everyone has to say and what's on their mind.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: [00:41:00] And that again, also impacts like other ideas that may spark things that come back into my work. Um, and then I do a lot of mentorship. And volunteering. I was sitting on a board up until last summer for the AIGA San Francisco. And I do a lot of mentorship through different platforms like ADP list and others. And again, that's like part of my, day job, like my business hours.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And then just over the last maybe year and a half, I've dipped my toes into writing. Which I didn't study writing or would see myself as a writer, but I have always tried to share about what I'm doing, or I guess what a lot of people would call thought leadership, I write a lot on LinkedIn. I've been very transparent about how much money I make per year in these kind of recaps at the end of the year, which I still have to publish my
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah, I was wondering, I
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: [00:42:00] don't think I saw it this year,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I know. I'll send it to you when I'm a little behind.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: But these, those posts have been so helpful, just like
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: really
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I think for anyone in, their early career to, I don't know where I am.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: I don't know.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: later career, like when I was freelancing for a minute before joining Jasper, I was like, What do I charge for a
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: rebrand? No idea. I remember I even was like talking to you about it. And it's something that I'm sure must come up with you a lot. Like, do you get asked often? Especially by women, like how to negotiate and what to charge and
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Yeah, so much. Wish I could say that the men are asking me the same thing, but it's mostly mostly women. And I'm anytime you want to talk about money, the value based pricing how to negotiate. I am down. That could be an episode in and of itself. But I, yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I guess I'm something I'm just always [00:43:00] committed to is many things, but like gender equity in the design space.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: There's still a lot of, progress that needs to be made at the leadership level. But yeah, and then pay equity or, parody just in terms of how different. Genders tend to charge today, and I just feel like there's a lot of shame or embarrassment around charging more because they think, they'll look a certain way or, get pushback. And I often remind them that, I'm sure, I don't know, a male counterpart would be just fine charging that much. And look I'm still learning, like it's possible that I'm under charging or under, undervaluing what I'm selling, but I. I always try to charge more, like every time I pitch something and just see and wait until someone says no.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: I'm obviously doing my research and trying to understand the kind of market so that I'm not [00:44:00] charging something that feels unrealistic, but it still feels like a space that could use more conversation so that there's more transparency and people are charging more. Because if you are, then you're helping the entire industry.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: But yeah, just to close on this, like the designing my time point that I really try and talk about that, that all the things we just discussed, like writing, consulting, mentoring, speaking, teaching, it's this Venn diagram essentially, where if I'm able to do all of those things, even if, it's not like I'm spending the same amount of time towards all of those areas. But if I am able to do that all, then I am happy.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: and I feel fulfilled. And if there's some things that sometimes take a back seat, obviously that's very natural, but if I am able to do most of that during like business hours,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: then that [00:45:00] is my, that's my job. That's my career. If I'm able to do all of that, it's not just the, what makes me the most money or the fractional work.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And I. I. I think a lot of people assume that you have to be self employed to find that balance. And the reality is that's not true. Like you, anyone can design their time. Even if they have a full time commitment, it will be harder because lower more of their time is dedicated to a full time job, but it doesn't mean you can't try and design your time outside of work to go towards things that you really care about. And obviously I say that understanding that there's certain circumstances, like if you have kids or you're taking care of an aging parent, or sometimes obviously your time will go elsewhere. In my case, it's my health. I go see doctors. I do a lot of other types of things to, to make sure that I feel good.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And so lots of self care. But yeah, so I really encourage this [00:46:00] concept. For everyone, and I think a lot of people are still searching for that purpose, especially post covid. We're seeing this, even though it's been a few years we're entering year 5 I think there's a lot of conversations recently, even. where people are tired, they are questioning where their time goes, and there may be more willing to take a risk and just see if it's something that they can do. I get a lot of questions about, just What it's like, being self employed or going independent in so you can tell there's an increase in curiosity
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: It obviously it depends not everyone can do that.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Well, I'm sure you are an inspiration to many. So
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: thank you for continuing to share your story and your insights and being so open and transparent about it.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah. Thank you so much. I think, I do think we should we should plan a part two.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah, I
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: think there's a lot
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: more to look at. Maybe [00:47:00] after you post your 2024 recap, you can do a part two and just like dig into all of the like pieces of the pie. And, you know,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: That sounds good. I'm in.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: awesome.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Amazing. Yeah. No, for real. Let's do that. I'm not just
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Also, you might want to consider a rebrand to full time fractional, because it's like, it is a full time job.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Oh my goodness.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: yeah,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: no,
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: of a paradox term, but
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: yeah,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: it's actually it, when I listed my Airbnb gig on, on LinkedIn, I kept going back and forth on how to call it. So I'm using the word interim creative director and it just felt again, like I see a lot of the fractional gigs as maybe being more part time just because of the literal interpretation of fraction. And in this case, it is taking my. It's like a full time job. It's just a short term contract. And I will say it's been fun to experiment with different ways of working. I think having that flexibility and being [00:48:00] agile as a solopreneur is what allows me to decide, okay, maybe this time I will try this maternity coverage and just see what I,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: If I like it and it's been interesting to figure out how to design my time with that in mind which for the last four years, I haven't had a full time job.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: So I'm currently in that stage of figuring out the new Venn diagram, at least for the next few months. But it's, it, I, again, it's such a privilege to be able to design your own time and, But I'm just very conscious of it. And I think it's possible that the health stuff has also just made me more conscious of time on this planet.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: And where my time goes and it being more purposeful. So, again, I just I think everyone, if you're able to pause and reflect and look at where your time goes, no matter if you're full time, part time freelance, consulting, whatever it's a healthy exercise.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah,
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: totally. Definitely.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yeah, [00:49:00] that's such a good reminder.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Well,
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: don't do that. You're amazing. Just doing this podcast alone means that a lot of your time is being used for good.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: It's true. It is. Yeah. I think this is very, this is like a very healthy exercise.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Thank you so much
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: thank you, Rachel,
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Thank you again. We'll do this again very
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Yes, we
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Sounds good. It's an honor to be your first episode of season two.
jess-rosenberg_1_01-22-2025_100441: Oh, we are the honored ones.
liz-meyer_1_01-22-2025_110441: Yeah, for real yes. Wow. Why? Not why?
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: right.
rachel-gogel--she-her-_1_01-22-2025_080441: Follow up soon. Talk soon. Bye. Thanks so much.