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Welcome to "The Optimize Show," where financial leadership meets strategic excellence. This podcast is tailor-made for finance and procurement leaders, offering expert-led episodes brimming with actionable insights designed to empower you in steering impactful outcomes within your organization.
Whether you're navigating complex financial landscapes or seeking innovative solutions to enhance organizational efficiency, each episode is a treasure trove of practical wisdom, equipping you with the tools to drive impactful outcomes within your organization. From strategic financial planning to cutting-edge technologies, The Optimize Show is your go-to resource for staying ahead in the dynamic landscape of finance.
I'm a really big believer that software costs can really quickly run away from you. And I think especially with capital markets being constrained, companies are doing more with less tools.
Speaker 2:Hello, everyone. Welcome to The Optimize Show. I'm brought to you by Spinflow. I'm your host for the episode David Kim, and I'm an account executive here at Spinflow. SpinFlow is a unified SaaS buying and management solution that enables high growth businesses to buy, renew, and manage SaaS subscriptions.
Speaker 2:Today, we're joined by Nicole Jordan Dadaal, the vice president of finance at Clovers, a people first hiring intelligence platform. She's a finance executive with a strong track record in leading finance and HR at high growth startups, spearheading strategic initiatives and driving profitability. Welcome, Nicole. It's our pleasure to host you today.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much, David. I'm really excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Me too. Absolutely. Well, Nicole, the financial landscape is evolving at a very rapid pace, as you know, driven by a surge of innovative tools and automation. Today, we're gonna be delving into the impact of technology on financial decision making and exploring the challenges as well as the opportunities that it presents. So, Nicole, before we dive into the topic of today's podcast, can you tell us a little bit more about yourself and your experience as a finance professional, the organizations that you've worked with in your journey so far in finance?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I I have a pretty varied background, which, I think is one of my biggest strengths. I I've worked at companies from commercial real estate to media to SaaS. I've been all over the map, and I ultimately landed at SaaS in the in the start up sphere because I I was really interested and intrigued in how they operated.
Speaker 1:Earlier in my career, I spent quite a bit of time in corporate FP and a and then also a large amount of time in asset management in commercial real estate. So because of that, I have a really strong operational background in addition to my strategic finance background. Strategic finance is my first love. I love FP and a, running things in Excel, building models. I love that so much.
Speaker 1:But I'm also really fascinated by operations, and part of what I love working at a start up is that it allows me to flex both of those muscles and really be sure that financial operations are streamlined really well. And they're built in such a way that as we grow, we're not gonna hit some sort of bottleneck on the financial side. I never wanna tell my sales team I'm not set up to do that. You you can't do this deal because I'm not set up on the finance side to build them.
Speaker 2:Most definitely. Yeah. I mean, as an account executive, having a, finance leader like you working on top of me, I mean, that would be best if you are enabling the revenue organization to do what they do best and make sure that the finance organization is prepared to take on something like that. So that's really cool. Quick side question.
Speaker 2:Is Google Sheets equivalent to what Excel is able to offer you, or is there just a complete clear, you know, strength to Excel?
Speaker 1:It's funny. When I joined Clovers, we use Google. Google is our ecosystem. Right? Except for meetings, we use Zoom.
Speaker 1:But we use Google Docs, Google Sheets, everything. And when I joined, I saw that, you know, they wanted all my files in Google Sheets. And I I went to the CEO, and I was like, look. I cannot function in Google Sheets. Like, I'm, like, half as fast.
Speaker 1:I get things done half as quickly and not as well. Please let me buy, you know, Excel, put it on my computer. I have a PC because I I'm not as good on a Mac either. Right? So, like, I have to have a PC and I have to have Excel.
Speaker 1:And he was like, you know, okay. I guess, you know, you can be the only one that uses Excel. So, like, I basically work in Excel and then I have to upload my files into Google so that, you know, people can access them. But I I Google Sheets just doesn't have the functionality for 1. It doesn't.
Speaker 1:And for 2, I I also feel like because it's, you know, connected to the Internet, it's slower. And, like, when you're moving really, really, really quickly through Excel and using just keyboard shortcuts and things like that, I don't need to be connected to the Internet and slowing things down with the constant saving. Like, I don't want that. So I don't have auto save turned on, like, any of that. It just slows me down.
Speaker 1:So yes. Thank you. Yeah. Strong believer.
Speaker 2:You're you're speaking my language because I remember, you know, goo when Google Sheets started coming on to become a little bit more prevalent, I I tried to use it. But just like you said, as a Windows or PC user trying to use Mac where where command does not equal control, keyboard shortcuts get just extremely confusing. And then you add going from Excel to Google Sheet, and then the keyboard shortcuts don't translate there either. It just becomes this whole new language of having to learn keyboard shortcuts and all that. So I thought I'd ask.
Speaker 2:You probably spend so much time within spreadsheets that you have a strong opinion on what is best. And here it is. It's exciting.
Speaker 1:I do. I fought multiple of my of my bosses and, you know, letting me maintain my Excel spreadsheets. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just like just like right now. Yeah. It's just it's just the expectations that need to be set. We're working out of Excel, at least me.
Speaker 2:But hey, Nicole. Given your experience, I'd be curious to understand. So what are the essential competencies that you would say modern finance leaders need to possess to effectively serve as strategic partners to the organization?
Speaker 1:It's a great question because and I and I have I have a lot of strong opinions and feelings about a lot of these things. So this is another one. Historically, CEOs and finance CFOs, excuse me, and finance leaders have often come from a CPA and accounting background. And I've I'm seeing more of a shift toward, you know, a strategic finance or an FP and a background of these executives to really help set the vision, not just for the finance team, but for the entire financial strategy of the organization. I think finance leaders are going to need to have a really deep understanding of operations of the business too and, obviously, strong relationships with the rest of the executive team.
Speaker 1:And then, of course, you know, usually, they have teams to lead, so they need to have strong leadership skills. But for me, as I've been looking at it, obviously, you know, having understanding the basics of accounting is crucial, but I I really do think we're seeing the shift to more towards having a really deep strategic and or operational understanding of the entire business and then leveraging that into the financial strategy and then having a really, really good controller to be sure that the accounting side is really well put together.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I love that. And, you know, an interesting thing that I can I can pull from, I remember I never really kind of compartmentalize the skill sets of a CFO to be a technical finance leader to an operational minded finance leader? I remember the first time that I was enlightened in these two different skill sets in that not every single CFO harnesses both or not every single CFO harnesses the operational excellence of the CFO role. I remember it was when I was at an f suite conference.
Speaker 2:I think f suite is is one of the, you know, finance leader communities that are out there. And they brought on a, a guest speaker, the CFO of 10X Genomics, I believe. And he he really he really had a pride behind his operational finance leadership. And I remember listening to his listening to his segment during that conference and just thought it really lit a light bulb in my head of, wow. Like, CFO's CFO's roles are not just about being technical and in the books and compliance and risk management.
Speaker 2:It does get into having a very clear understanding of the operations of that business and that industry and being able to apply your thought process, your critical thinking into helping grow the business and and whatever else is a priority for them. So that's really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I'm a member of f Suite. They're awesome. But but, yeah, that's what I've seen a lot.
Speaker 1:And and I feel like because, you know, if you just look at the p and l, for instance, it touches everything, like, you know, every department. Right? So if you don't have at least a basic concept of what your engineering team is doing, it's gonna be really hard to help them forecast because the engineers don't have a strong background in forecasting. Right? So you need to help them and show them the way and and and how it's done.
Speaker 1:Right. And if you don't understand what they're doing, if you don't understand what marketing is doing, if you don't understand what the sales team is doing, it's really hard to get an accurate forecast. So that's that's part of where the operations piece comes in and why I think it's becoming so much more crucial than it has in the past.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Definitely. But on this note, Nicole, I wanna ask about, you know, as we are on this topic of how tools are helping you with some financial automation as well as financial decision making, I wanted to understand how are finance leaders leveraging analytical tools to forecast financial trends and making smarter moves for the organization? Because I know right now it's about making the right deliberate decisions for the company and pivoting where you need to.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Absolutely. I I'm familiar with a lot of there's been a recent surge of financial forecasting tools out there over the last few years, and I'm familiar with a lot of them, and and I'm sure they have a lot of value. But as I told you a few minutes ago, I'm a really big fan of Excel. If you build your models right, it really doesn't require that much manual effort at the end of each month to update actuals or to reforecast things.
Speaker 1:It's really not that much effort. And it's a pretty cheap tool. And Clovers in particular, we're a relatively small company, so we don't have a ton of extra tools that we use. In fact, I'm a really big believer that software cost can really quickly run away from you. And, David, I'm I'm sure you agree with me on that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And so particularly for the finance team, I really have to be able to justify what I'm spending money on. So for me, it's Excel and I for forecasting, I think, especially in the SaaS side of things, revenue is crucial. It it's what it can be one of the more challenging things to forecast. So anything, like, we use Maxio for our revenue recognition and invoicing. They really allow us to get a really solid grasp on our current customers, and then it allows us to forecast much easier things Things I can just drop into my Excel model at the end of the month, and it just, you know, fits out the the updated forecast.
Speaker 1:And then QuickBooks, you know, something from an accounting perspective. Right? You gotta be able to track actuals in order to forecast. So something like QuickBooks, you know, I I'm a really big fan of QuickBooks online. Been using it for a while, and I also am a really big believer in Salesforce.
Speaker 1:I love Salesforce. Right? I don't think you can get a really good track or forecast of revenue without having a solid understanding of your pipeline. Right? And storing it in a tool like Salesforce is it's one of the best tools in my opinion.
Speaker 1:So on the revenue side, those are the tools that I really like to use and what I feel like can really be with your company for a lot of growth before you really need to invest in anything more intense than that. But on the expense side, obviously, using a software like SpinFlow was extremely helpful to make sure you've got control of your software spend because I found, particularly in SaaS, 2 of the biggest 3 of the biggest things we spend money on, headcount, hosting, and software. Right? So anything you can do to really understand your software spend and your headcount spend is also gonna help you forecast much, much better. So I think as far as the trends you were asking about, I think especially with capital markets being constrained, companies are doing more with less tools.
Speaker 1:And so you really want a tool that can not be that expensive, cover all your bases, and have a really good ROI if, you know, if it is gonna be more expensive.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Absolutely. And And I think with everything every single, you know, platform or if we wanna call it that, but tool that you've mentioned, I mean, it really does help to have the right implementation and it just have the right setup going into it. So I know it's a big, you know, a big requirement to make sure that, hey. Once that foundation is set and if everything is implemented correctly, that's when we can get a lot of time savings, that things are more automated by the systems that we use.
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I'm sure there are instances in the past that many finance leaders have gone through before where implementation didn't go all that well. Things aren't configured or set up in the way that they wanted to. So I know those pains, you know, from having spoken to a lot of them. You know, if we were to park into or double click into Salesforce, I'd be curious because I do think, you know, CFOs that I've worked with in the past, they'd like to live in Salesforce at least to get an understanding of the revenue stream. Now for you, for Salesforce, is this something that you would say you're in there almost every day?
Speaker 2:Are you going in there more on a weekly basis? Or how frequently would you say you go in there to check out some of the reports that's been created by either rev ops or you yourself in the finance department?
Speaker 1:That's a great question. It probably depends. Closer towards the end of the month, I'm in it a little bit more often. We also to be honest, we have a great team here. And so our sales team is very communicative.
Speaker 1:So I don't have to go in every day because they're always telling me what's going on. And we're we're a small company. I don't have to go in and, you know, double check their work every day because they're telling me what's going on. Hey. This deal is closed.
Speaker 1:Hey. This deal is not. We have weekly meetings. So I'm in a definitely a few times a week just, you know, to check everything out, see if make sure things are still on track, and then definitely in preparation for those those weekly meetings. Like, hey.
Speaker 1:You know, where's this deal? Let's make sure we have a solid understanding of of where some of these renewals are at too. But my system is super communicative, and I'm really lucky. But at at prior companies, I've definitely had to be in it more often, and I've had to be a little bit more I've had to have a little bit more oversight and remind people a little more often, hey. Let's be sure this deal is updated.
Speaker 1:Let's be sure this is, you know, accurate, but I'm really lucky we have a great team.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's that's really good because, you know, I was at a, another f suite event last week. And one of the topics that we parked on and, of course, you know, that that f suite is a is primarily the the members in there are finance leaders and primarily CFOs. And I remember a topic of conversation that we revolve around during this dinner having to come down to Salesforce. There was a CFO that was kind of voicing his frustrations about the fact that, hey, even though I want to use it as my source of truth, because I need to go in there.
Speaker 2:I need to look at my numbers. They're they're applicable to the things that I report to the board and my executives. However, the salespeople don't seem to think that is the case, that they are able to run things like maybe this is, you know, the 19 nineties, and they can have have their notebook. Maybe they're outside salespeople. They drive around.
Speaker 2:They need to have their, you know, Rolodex figuratively. But a notebook where they keep the notes going in and and and entering that information to a CRM after a long day of outside sales might be a little bit cumbersome. But it was such a long conversation because because it is a source of frustration for him. And I remember the verdict that came down is I think it was a a pretty unanimous agreement across the table, especially from the CFOs that were helping suggest some options to him that, hey. This is a top down approach.
Speaker 2:This is something that, hey. If your if your sales manager isn't able to get your reasoning as the CFO as to why you need to be in there and why why you need to make sure that the data is hygienic and clean, then the sales manager is unable to communicate it down to the reps and the individual contributors. And if the CFO was able to communicate clearly to the leadership of revenue, then they are able to get that type of cohesion and making sure that, hey, Sales Force is what we live and breathe. This is where we store our information. Please make sure that everything is maintained.
Speaker 2:So I'm glad that at Clover, that is not an issue. You have a very open communication team where things are readily flowing. Maybe you're even talking about some strategic deals in Slack so that you're just aware of where they are. But, also, in terms of numbers, you can easily go in there and get what you need.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I'm not saying everything's perfect. Right? But I definitely but I definitely experienced that problem many times at at prior companies where it was hard to get the sales team to update Salesforce in the way that Mhmm. We as the finance team needed it updated and as regularly as we needed it updated.
Speaker 1:Right? And I think the advice they gave is that's what I've seen work, and I do think that's part of why our sales team really understands what what we're trying to accomplish here, and we're moving really quickly. And that's why I need them to update it as soon as they have an update. Hey. I emailed someone.
Speaker 1:Great. Put it in there. Hey. Yeah. I spoke to this person.
Speaker 1:Here's the results. We'll send the contract next week, you know, whatever it is. Make sure Salesforce is updated. So and I actually have seen it at really large companies. I've seen the sales team do a really good job of updating it.
Speaker 1:So you you can have it at large companies where they do a really good job updating it regularly for the finance team, and then you can also have trouble at larger companies. So if you do it right, it's possible. For
Speaker 2:sure. Most definitely. And, yeah, with financial tools helping, you know, provide a little bit more automation and just the ability to make better insight driven decisions. It helps that the people that are entering the data are the ones to make sure that data hygiene is of high priority. I think it might just be, you know, my age or or when I was raised, but but I was raised in the age of having a computer.
Speaker 2:I think you can probably find a picture of me when I'm 5 or 6 years old in front of a computer because my dad was kind of that type of guy. He was kind of a a computer nerd when when things were, you know, you know, coming up in the mid nineties. I was born in 94. And and to me, especially as a as a primarily inside salesperson, obviously, I I go and and and travel if I need to and, meet clients in person. But primarily as an inside salesperson, Salesforce is how I keep my source of truth for all my notes for what's going on.
Speaker 2:I couldn't think of another way where I would be manually tracking my notes on each each and every conversation that I have. So maybe with people around my age, it's just a little bit easier of a thought from an individual contributor level that, hey. I I don't need another system. I don't keep things in a in a Google Sheet about what's going on in my pipeline. It's Salesforce.
Speaker 2:And as long as we're unified on that, the CFO has a better chance of coming in here, getting the data that they need that is that is clear and also accurate for what they need in reporting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because at the end of the day, if the data they give the board is accidentally inaccurate because the sales team, you know, didn't update Salesforce properly I mean,
Speaker 2:you know,
Speaker 1:it's ultimately the CFO's responsibility, but, like Yeah. You know, they're gonna come for someone. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like, it's not in your best interest as a salesperson to not keep it updated because, ultimately, they're gonna come back to you and be like, this deal said this in Salesforce, and this is what we told investors.
Speaker 2:Right. Most definitely. I agree. Well, Nicole, I wanna ask you, you know, a little bit more relief to your background, but hey. As more women are kind of joining in the finance industry, what do you have to say to to young women navigating the financial workforce, kind of starting off in their career?
Speaker 2:Maybe they're in 3 to 5 years in and have aspirations to get to the position and the roles that you have had the opportunity to take on. What kind of advice would you have for them now in this day and age?
Speaker 1:That's a good question. The first thing that I would say is we need you. Right? We know that finance has historically been dominated by men, And, honestly, having women in the field just helps bring new perspective and new ideas to the table, and it's really important. 2nd, Shirley Krishall once said, if they don't give you a seat at the table, bring a folding chair.
Speaker 1:And I really believe that there are respectful and appropriate ways to do this. And speaking to women, I encourage you to fight for your right to be at the table. Right? Even if it means you're not allowed to speak in that meeting, that's fine. There have been a lot of meetings I've gone to, and I've been like, I promise I won't speak.
Speaker 1:Just let me be here. Let me just listen. Let me learn. And they were really important for my career. 3rd, having thick skin will get you far.
Speaker 1:Just being honest. Like, always assume the best of people, and just don't let comments people make impact you. Keep pushing forward and do your best no matter what. And 4th in that same vein, seek out feedback. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You may not always think the feedback is accurate or fair, but you get to be the judge of whether you take it and apply it. And I think having thick skin will give you the ability to absorb the right feedback and reject the wrong feedback. So those are kind of the main things that I would say to women, but most importantly, we need you. And if you think that if you really like it, but you think you're not good enough or you don't have the skill, I have dyscalculia. So I have dyslexia specifically with numbers, which has been a lot of fun being in finance.
Speaker 1:But, like, there are tools that help you. Right? Like, if you think you're not good enough or if you think something prevents you, it doesn't. Right? Like, there are ways to work around it and ways to do it.
Speaker 1:If you love it, stick with it and keep going, and you're gonna be successful if you if you just push forward.
Speaker 2:Wow. Yeah. That's awesome. I love that. I think, you know, the really great thing about this is that, you know, for a lot of high achieving professionals in their career, I think number 3 and number 4 can apply to anybody.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be just finance related. You don't have to come from a finance background. But as long as you're going out there seeking advice, doing what you can to continuously improve yourself, you will find your way and you will find your spot in this industry and whatever you wanna do in your career. I love just that background, the snippet of what you shared of hey. There are things that will help enable you to break through challenges and do what you need to to be in the positions that you wanna be.
Speaker 2:So those aspirations that you have, keep striving for it because there is kind of a a lack of women representation within this field. And I think you bring up a really good point because there was one other question that I wanted to ask you. That's more when when people talk about the shortage of accountants entering the profession, does that also permeate into the tech industry, or is that more of a CPA and and and the public accounting sector, or does it actually affect and impact our industry within software and technology?
Speaker 1:I think it will.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:For sure. Because I a lot of accountants get their start in historically, the way it's been. Right? You go to college, you get your MAC, your master's in accounting, you're in college for 5 years. Right?
Speaker 1:And you graduate with a master's in accounting after 5 years to end your undergrad degree. You go to KPMG, Deloitte, whatever. And then you go there for a few years. You do tax or audit. And then after that, they tend to, they can stay there, or they'll go into the private sector.
Speaker 1:Right? And the private sector includes start ups. You don't often it's definitely possible that accountants will leave their college education and come straight into the private sector, and we will probably see more of that going forward. But previously, it's very much been, hey. We go to PwC.
Speaker 1:We work here for a little bit, and then we go into the private sector. So, ultimately, if people aren't wanting to go work at PwC or Deloitte or KPMG anymore, then it's gonna be harder on the back end of that funnel getting people into the private sector. And I think
Speaker 2:It's the pipeline of talent more more on a macroeconomic level. It's the pipeline of talent that usually funnels new talent to join start up industries, software, and technology. And if we have limitations there, we're gonna soon feel the effects. Maybe 5 years, 10 years, we don't know, but we will.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And it'll be soon. But the second piece goes back
Speaker 2:to what I was
Speaker 1:saying about what they're looking for in CFOs nowadays. Used to be you had to be a CPA. Right? Like, you had to have a really strong accounting background. They that's what they wanted.
Speaker 1:But people are really moving towards having a strategic FP and a background. So if there's less demand at the top for CFOs being CPAs or strict accounts, and I don't think that's gonna go away. I think there are still instances where that is gonna be what they want. But if it's a lot less, then the demand for that type of skill set higher up is also lower. So less people are going to want less really motivated individuals are going to wanna pursue that career path because they're thinking, well, you know, it's gonna be hard to even get a CFO job, and that's what I wanna do.
Speaker 1:So I'll just go into finance instead. Now you can also go into a deep conversation of AI and the potential for AI to do journal entries. Right? Just, you know, basic entry level accounting type things. Maybe AI could ultimately do that, and then what does it look like from an accounting perspective when they graduate?
Speaker 1:Where do they start? Because they AI is doing the basic journal entries where, you know, you might start in bookkeeping. So, you know, it's a really interesting conversation that I think it's really gonna be interesting to see what happens between Yeah. AI and the talent pool and where all that goes.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Most definitely. But I also used to sell revenue recognition solutions. And I remember thinking, I'm sure I'm I know that there is a human factor where you still need to get eyes on what the final output of our revenue recognition solution looks like. So there needs to be some human interference to make sure that there is a a a brief audit of what it's crunching.
Speaker 2:But that if if those systems get more and more refined and more and more honed in, that there is a possibility that maybe that entire responsibility of closing the books and recognizing revenue of on ASC 606 compliance, that it would be taken care of by a system kind of within the topic of today in in in financial automation and decisions you're making. So that is really interesting, and it is kind of a a test of time for us to really understand what is this collision of artificial intelligence, the shortage of shortage of professionals entering the accounting field. Will AI actually be able to take on those roles? At least at least the work towards the bottom where it's more data crunching and things like that.
Speaker 1:Cheating. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right. Most definitely. So it is a it is a fascinating topic for us to, you know, be able to talk about, and I'm sure that is something that we, you know, should talk about in the future. But, Nicole, I have a couple of rapid fire questions for you here to wrap up the podcast. I really wanna know about what your top finance tools look like.
Speaker 2:So given your your experience over all of the different companies that you've been at, what are your top three finance tools in 2024 that you will not live without and that you just absolutely love and need by your side?
Speaker 1:Well, Excel. Time out that the whole time. I'm never gonna let it go. I really love QBO. I've used more advanced and, you know, ultimately, you have to have a more advanced system, but I love it.
Speaker 1:It's so easy to use. Yeah. And Maxio. I love Maxio. Been using it across multiple different companies for years, and it's always done what I needed it to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Love that. Well, Randy Wooten as well as Dan Owens, there's a there's a quick shout out for you there from a current customer. That's awesome. And what is a, what is a financial jargon that you find absurd?
Speaker 2:Maybe you wanna just remove it from the face of the earth. Maybe you wanna swap it with something. But is there something that kinda crawls crawls under your skin in terms of financial jargon that has developed over the years?
Speaker 1:It's not so much jargon, but I really hate it when people say finance instead of finance. Like, I
Speaker 2:feel like it's
Speaker 1:just trying to sound smart. Like, just say finance. My dad says finance, and it drives me up a wall. So that's, like, the biggest thing. Just say finance.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for joining us today, Nicole. It's been a pleasure to host you and understand what the future of finance holds for us. What an amazing episode. I'm sure our listeners will have learned a lot from Nicole's experiences and her perspectives on the finance industry and how they can up their game in this field. You can connect with Nicole on LinkedIn to continue the conversation, and check out the episode description for her LinkedIn and any additional resources mentioned.
Speaker 2:Until next time, stay informed, stay inspired, and keep thriving in your financial journey. Thank you for tuning in.