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We educate investors and potential investors on the in's and out's of investing in rental property. We focus on residential and multifamily investing, but include commerical, storage, mobile home parks, and more. We interview industry experts on tax strategies, property management, vendor selection, syndications, capex, and more.
Hey, investors. Welcome to the retire on rentals podcast. I'm your host, Nicholas Cook. And in this show, we explore how to optimize real estate investing, create passive income, discuss operational tactics, and ways you and your family can retire on rental income. If you wanna invest in real estate or currently do, then this podcast is for you.
Nicholas Cook:Alright. And welcome to another episode of retire on rentals podcast. We cover topics about real estate investing, creating passive income, and helping you and your family retire on rental income. Today's guest is Michael Hamilton, president of Seneca Development, a company that develops multifamily structures and other commercial assets. Michael, welcome to the show.
Nicholas Cook:I'm excited to have you here. Thanks for, joining us. Been wanting to talk to you about your, your operation here for a little while.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah, man. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
Nicholas Cook:Cool. Well, one of things I always like to ask people, because real estate is such a funny business. Not a lot of people, like, studied real estate and then went into it. They usually ended up in it somehow. So maybe you could just tell me about your kind of origin story.
Nicholas Cook:How did you even get into real estate in the place? Like, what where where did you start?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. That's that's a funny story. I was down in Eugene, dual enrolled at Lane and University of Oregon. And I think I was in some class learning about earthquakes, and I had this thought that was like, if I'm spending time right now learning about earthquakes, I'm not spending time building my career. I just it was just very simple for me to see that.
Michael Hamilton:So after that class, I went home and Googled how can I make money without a college degree? So it's ironic that you said no one really studies it because it's true. And so at the end of that school year, I ended up just kind of, I would say, blindly messaging every realtor, property manager, contractor, email that I could find online and just saying, hey, I'm 17 years old, really interested in real estate, or 18 years old, really interested in real estate, would love to have coffee. And I think I probably sent a 100 of those emails and
Nicholas Cook:Nice.
Michael Hamilton:Two people responded naturally, but one of which was a house flipper. And at the time, he had called me and said, hey, what are you doing? What are your plans? I kind of told him, you know, exactly what I'm telling you. Hey, I'm reaching out to people trying to get into real estate.
Michael Hamilton:And he had said, hey, you know, if if you don't plan to go back to school, we'd love to hire you. And I think he used a really sexy term at the time, which was acquisition specialist, which really meant cold calling. Yeah. Right? Pretty much.
Michael Hamilton:When you're 18, 19, you're like acquisition
Nicholas Cook:specialist. Dialing with dollars.
Michael Hamilton:That sounds great. And so, that's what I did. I, did a lot of cold calling, but had the opportunity, to observe how the flipping process went. And through those observations, it became really apparent to me that the construction was of the utmost importance. You know, if your, general contractor wasn't on time, wasn't on budget, your profit got eaten pretty quickly.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. And so, at that time, didn't have a bunch of capital, obviously. I was just a college dropout at that time. And thought if I could specialize in that aspect, I can bring value to potential clients and developers, and eventually grow a portfolio. And so, you know, slowly started with bathroom remodels and small single family homes, started getting into more luxury homes, and then kind of restarted small multifamily and getting into larger multifamily.
Michael Hamilton:But, yeah, it doesn't come without bumps or bruises.
Nicholas Cook:No. Definitely not. Well, I mean, you you did the thing that a lot of people just never do is you took action.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Right? You know? And and being that young, you just kind of use what resources you had and put yourself out there. So that's great. And I imagine, you know, it seems like a lot of your focus, at least recently in the last few years, has been in multifamily.
Nicholas Cook:Yes. And and maybe it's just a logical trajectory where you went from, you know, single family, you stayed in residential kind of space, and you went into, to multifamily, and now you guys are obviously extending beyond that. But what inspired kind of your your focus in, you know, residential housing and and apartment buildings? And and how do you feel like at this point in your guys' career with your projects? How are you guys differentiating maybe your projects from your competitors?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. No. That's a great question. I guess I'll answer the part. When I had started my general contracting business, I had simultaneously thought, well, off, there was zero to no regulation around Airbnb at the time.
Michael Hamilton:And so my thought was, hey, maybe I can just lease out these nice penthouses and I can sublease them on Airbnb. And it worked great until the bureaucratic process caught up.
Nicholas Cook:That blew up.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. Exactly. And at the same time, I realized it was very difficult to scale where, you know, I would have eight apartments in eight different buildings, people moving in and out. And I was like, there's no way I could take a single one single one more on. And so being in that space kinda introduced me though, to the cash flow side of the business.
Michael Hamilton:I remember my day I posted on Airbnb, in a penthouse. We had $20,000 worth of bookings in that day, and I was like, woah. I just hit the jackpot. Well Yeah. I was naive, but it was awesome to see that.
Michael Hamilton:And so, that was kind of in the mix with the general contracting business I had started was I wanna own rentals. And at the time, I didn't really differentiate whether it'd be single family or multifamily. I just knew I wanna own rentals.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:But then also having the opportunity to build for so many clients and so many different developers, I got to see what worked and didn't work. And I got to see the flexibility, that scale provided. You know, when you've got a 100 units versus one unit, it doesn't really matter if one or two people aren't paying rent. Sure. And so that and then also scaling the construction.
Michael Hamilton:I knew, gosh, it'd be really hard to do 40 home subdivisions. Not that there aren't private groups that do it, but Sure. You know, trying to compete with Lennar Homes or any of those companies kind of
Nicholas Cook:just People are just land banking and
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. It seemed like a very difficult path. Ironically, I chose multifamily in Portland, but
Nicholas Cook:It's one of the toughest markets in the country to build
Michael Hamilton:in Portland. Yeah. Exactly. But so I had a client that I was doing single family stuff for that bought a lot in Portland. It was a 18 unit building.
Michael Hamilton:They asked if I could build it, I said, yeah, of course, I can build it. And, I wanna say the rest is history, but I started with that 18 unit and just slowly started getting to 30 units, you know, another 25 units, just try to get bigger and bigger, and then eventually did the Robert project, 55 unit building, and that kinda tipped the plate into us getting into more institutional sized projects.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Because now you're going into like post tension decks different grades of construction. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:Yes.
Nicholas Cook:So, you know, obviously, everyone's kinda got their criteria. But how do you guys identify and prioritize locations for your developments? Like, what do you guys have any specific like, you know, not to be cliche, but like buy box when you're trying to acquire sites?
Michael Hamilton:Oh, certainly. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's a great question.
Michael Hamilton:I mean, think that's one of the benefits that we have. All the partners at Seneca are all born and raised Portland natives. They know Portland and they've known it for fifty plus years. Yeah. And so it's it's been neat being able to identify these corridors, which we call them corridors in Portland where we're talking about Mississippi District, you know, division.
Michael Hamilton:And so we like to be around those corridors as much as possible. There's also a balance that we see in these certain pockets of Portland that allow us to profitably develop apartments with the inclusionary housing laws. Right? So it's like if I were to go do something in the Pearl and my one bedroom's $4,000 a month, it hurts a lot when 10% of those or 20% of those have to be at $1,500 a month. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:Where we like to look at some of our product where, hey, we're already offering inclusionary units even though they're market rate and they're not under the rent restriction that inclusionary has. And so we're able to kind of find pockets in Portland where the rents make sense, the inclusionary housing makes sense. You know, there's a lot of stuff in the market that's made developing real estate in the last two years in Portland very, difficult. I think the data shows that. Sure.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. So yeah, it's it's been an interesting time to be a developer in Portland.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. One of things that I think is impressive that you guys have done and continue to do is, you know, a lot of people saw that inclusionary zoning rule go up and they said, great. Well, I'm only gonna put up 19 units.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Right? And you guys haven't really done that. You said, you know what? We're gonna just go forward and and build. And, obviously, there's a lot of different, you know, ways to navigate IZ, but the fact that you're doing that, I think, is, you know, maybe an understated, contribution to the city because, you know, if if you build a property that could support more than 19 units, but you make it 19 Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Then you've pretty much contributed to the housing shortage problem that we're gonna have. And that asset's probably gonna be there thirty, fifty, 80, depends on what materials you probably use, but it's gonna be there a long time.
Michael Hamilton:Yep.
Nicholas Cook:And that just doesn't yield highest and best use. So the fact that you guys are out there doing that is is awesome. Love to see that. You know, obviously, you know, you're a young guy in the scheme of things. And, you know, what is your kind of vision for Seneca over the next five to ten years?
Nicholas Cook:Like, where have you guys kinda charted out where you wanna go? What's your futures? You want what you want that to look like?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, we we're not going anywhere as far as demographic goes in the next five years. We think from a private investment standpoint, Portland's the place to be. I like to I like to say that patterns are really important and having recognition for patterns is really important. Mhmm.
Michael Hamilton:But then also identifying the difference between those patterns in terms of are good examples like Detroit. I've heard people say like, oh, Portland's turned into Detroit. Have you been to Detroit? Portland's not turned into Detroit. It's going through what I perceive as a growth spurt as far as becoming more of a major metropolitan.
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm.
Michael Hamilton:And so, like, example, I tell people I was like, when I went to school, Portland wasn't even on the map of cities to learn in each And now it is. And so I think that going through that that process has unfortunately unfortunately made housing supply really really tight. And so we look at, you know, for instance, what's his name? Brandon Fresen? I might need to confirm that name.
Michael Hamilton:Over at CBRE did a study that showed Portland has the worst five year supply to absorption ratio in The United States for any market with 60,000 units. So not only do we have a shortage, we've got the worst shortage in the nation. Yeah. And so from a private standpoint, we look at that as if we can contribute to the solution and if, the city, the mayor, the governor, which, you know, as you know, recently have started moving that direction.
Nicholas Cook:Rolling out a bit of a welcome mat.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. You know, saying, hey, we're open for business. We'd love to be part of that solution. I think that there's economic upside for being a part of that solution. With that said, that's not a two, three, four, five year solution.
Michael Hamilton:It's gonna take we'd be lucky if we caught up to the housing shortage in my lifetime, and you just said I was a young guy. So we've got a ways to go.
Nicholas Cook:It's, yeah, it's a huge problem to unravel. But I I think that your point is that it's valid and, you know, it's not Detroit. You know, Detroit and I'm not an historian on Detroit, but there is a lot of challenges that Detroit ran into from a, economic standpoint. Right? They're very dependent on certain industries.
Nicholas Cook:There was a lot of stuff that happened with global trade, and then there's some other just, you know, social issues and things like that. Whereas, you know, for better or worse worse, most of Portland's issues are self inflicted. Right? There which means we can solve them without, you know, it being too radical, you'd think. So it's a little perplexing when we're while we're not more further down that road.
Nicholas Cook:But Yeah. Okay. Well, that sounds like you guys are here for the long haul. I like that. You know, what is your how do you balance, you know because you're you're building, you know, new construction.
Nicholas Cook:Right? You know, you guys aren't necessarily doing any repositioning of of existing buildings. How do you balance like affordability with quality of amenities and materials, you know, in your projects?
Michael Hamilton:That's a great question. You know, I think, you know, one thing is, you know, it's we've we've got the benefit of having in house construction and projects are scale. There's only a handful of groups capable of building the projects we build. There's only so many groups that can build a 100,000 square foot multifamily building on time, on budget. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:At the same time, those are massive companies. They are not ten, fifteen person teams. They've got 50 employees. They've got substantial overhead. Mhmm.
Michael Hamilton:And so being able to run a lean operation from the construction side allows us to reinvest back into the project from an experience perspective. And so, you know, we've got our absolutes in every building. Our our we won't compromise on it, which is each one's gotta have AC. Each one's gotta have stainless steel appliances. Each one's gotta have quartz countertops.
Michael Hamilton:But other than those basic amenities, which they sound basic, but they are the difference between some
Nicholas Cook:Add cost. And your
Michael Hamilton:They add cost, but they're also a different differentiator, when a tenant's trying to
Nicholas Cook:make a decision on where they wanna Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:And so, you know, balancing the affordability aspect, like I said, we're very particular in our pockets for that reason. Right? I mean, there are some areas in Portland we won't touch and not because we don't love it, but because economics just don't make sense.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Yeah. So you guys have established a quality standard. You guys are gonna build to that. That's part of your kind of brand promise you might say.
Michael Hamilton:A 100%. Yes. Yeah. Our our whole goal is I mean, it's not radical by any means, is we just wanna make a product 10% better. Not 50% better, not a 100% better.
Michael Hamilton:Just 10% is gonna make all the world of difference.
Nicholas Cook:Got it. That makes sense. Now, this is a little bit more kind of involved, but can you walk me through the process, you know, for taking a project from, you know, basically concept to Mhmm. Completion? Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:Just like maybe some like, obviously, there's a lot of moving parts, but for somebody who's listening who's kind of, like, fascinated by the development process, and it feels kind of like a black box, you know, just some of
Michael Hamilton:the stages of which that goes through. Yeah. Certainly. I mean, various stages have, various players that are at the center of it. Right?
Michael Hamilton:And so when when we start looking at a project, either a a broker will propose a piece to us, someone will reach out to us, hey, we have a property. Well, thing we do is look it up. Do we like the location? That's the I mean, it's very easy to say, no, we don't like that location. But if we do like the location, then we look into the zoning of that location.
Michael Hamilton:And not just the base zoning, but in Portland, there's a variety of overlays and design standards. And so when you look at a c m two zone, you go, oh, great. I can build five stories. Well, then you look into the overlay that says, well, actually, there's a historic building right behind you that requires you only to build three stories. That's where you get killed.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. And so our step is just confirming the zoning, understanding the the overlay process. And we also don't reinvent the wheel. We we look at lots, that we've developed on before. Right?
Michael Hamilton:And so we know the construction type. We have a very good idea of the unit yield even before we go to our architect. And so once we've identified a site, it's passed the sniff test on zoning, our team prepares a financial model just based on what we assume it's gonna cost and what we think that we can yield as far as, number of units goes, unit type. And once we get through that process, then we engage our architect, and we say, hey, here's the property. Here's the zoning.
Michael Hamilton:This is our analysis. This is what we would like. This is the size of building we want. These are the types of units, number of units, and the architect will come back, and of course, they don't come back with exactly what you want. Sure.
Michael Hamilton:And you spend a couple months just kind of pushing and moving the building around. And once you're at that point and you've got a I won't even call it schematic design, but you've got floor plans, you got elevations, and an idea of what the building looks like, that's where you introduce the project to the city. And and you file what's called here Portland early assistance. It's, I think it's a four or five thousand dollar fee, and the city will look at your project, and they'll say, oh, the zoning, you know, something in the zoning you didn't find earlier actually applies to this, so you've gotta move this. You've gotta move this.
Michael Hamilton:And they will give you instruction on how to get your building to work for the next steps of going through a full design entitlement process. Mhmm. So once you get that feedback, you kind of reset with the architect and and sit down with your financial model and say, this is what the city's told us. This is what the architect believes we can do. And once we've baked that process, we're going through, I would say, eight or nine months of engineering, interior design work, just designing the plan set.
Michael Hamilton:And then you go through another twelve months with the with the city of Portland Yeah. To get that approved.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And, you know, obviously, again, there's a lot of stages within that. What are some of the biggest challenges in that kind of journey? Do you think you're being confronted with maybe things that are just part of being a developer, but maybe some things that are also that the city has done to make it difficult Mhmm. For you to bring concept to completion.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. Let me think about that. I mean, would say that I try and be reasonable. Especially now, I look at decisions that are made, and I think that they're well intentioned decisions, but maybe flawed Yeah. In terms of how the policy is executed.
Michael Hamilton:That's probably an entirely different podcast than we
Nicholas Cook:could have.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. But
Nicholas Cook:I'm sure yeah. We could beat that dead horse.
Michael Hamilton:But but, you know, I've I've had the luxury of building down in Newport Beach, California. I've had the luxury of building in Seattle, Washington. And so I've been able, you know, I haven't been in 50 different markets, but I've been in major markets where I've seen how that process goes in comparison to Portland. Yeah. And then also the cost associated with it as well.
Michael Hamilton:Got it. And so I mean, for example, the various design reviews or land use reviews required to even submit your building permit. So essentially, the city says after EA meeting, hey, this is great. Go ahead and start spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on design Mhmm. And then submit it, and we'll tell you if we like the design or not.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. And if we don't like it, go spend more money on changing it to the way we like it. And then once that's done, you can go ahead and submit it for a permit. And so the bureaucratic process, I think it's fair to have commentary on design. Obviously, no one wants a hot pink building.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. It's true. But at the same time, I think it's more of just the efficiency of it. Yeah. And that's what I mean.
Michael Hamilton:I think it's well intentioned. I think it makes sense, but the efficiency of how the policies are put in place for the review process are extremely difficult to navigate. Because and I always say this, this isn't a scenario where developers don't want to engage. Sure. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:I love Portland. The reality is each project costs tens of millions of dollars, and they're not our dollars. They're outside investors. They're banks. There's lenders.
Michael Hamilton:And so we could design all the beautiful buildings in the world. If we can't get them financed, that's where the problem lies.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. No. That makes sense. And are you saying that your experiences is that the design review process in Portland is more difficult than other municipalities?
Michael Hamilton:So this is what's interesting. A lot of, I would say, what I don't agree with has been slowly reversing a little bit. Right? And so, if you asked me two or three years ago, I'd say, yeah. It's a huge issue.
Michael Hamilton:Well, you know, last March, they started easing these land use requirements. Yeah. They started easing the design standards, and they made the design standards, frankly, reasonable. They look good. It's a reasonable cost.
Michael Hamilton:You're not asking me to do brick on my entire building where now my insurance policy is double, but also my cost and labor to build it's double. Yeah. So those sort of things have been more sensible as of late. But again, we're we're also in a rut where even though it's quick now, it's still difficult to do based on all the other issues that we're facing.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. What about like community opposition? Have you guys run into that much or anything like that in the development process? We do.
Michael Hamilton:You know, I think it really just depends where your project is. I mean, we have our for instance, our Caesar division project that was just announced in the Portland Business Journal the other week.
Nicholas Cook:I saw the rendering of that.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. Looks huge. And we've gotten a lot of great commentary from I mean, neighbors, people that live in the neighborhood that are just like, thank you. This is great. That's not always the case.
Nicholas Cook:No. It's not.
Michael Hamilton:We've also had, these neighborhood meetings where 60 people show up saying that they're gonna take over the site and and sit on it, and it's unfortunate because we're just trying to fill a need. You know, I think there's that there's this perception where developers are the big bad landlord and in that. And I I think the reality is is that we're doing what we know. Mhmm. And a lot of developers in Portland are also native to Portland.
Michael Hamilton:So they know that they're contributing to a macro solution. And so it's always met with headache. I think that's something you just sign up for as a developer in Portland. Like if you say you're gonna develop real estate in Portland, it's like, you gotta expect that.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. You're not gonna make a lot of friends. No. No. Definitely not not the case.
Nicholas Cook:Great. So, you know, in terms of navigating things, obviously, Portland, you guys know Portland, you talked about that being a common thread. But there's a lot of places that are very close by. Right? Whether you're talking about across the river and Vancouver.
Nicholas Cook:Yep. You're talking about, you know, some other suburbs, Beaverton.
Michael Hamilton:Yep.
Nicholas Cook:And then there's obviously, like, going even further beyond those markets. But, like, have you guys are you considering places kind of in the immediate vicinity Mhmm. That might be easier to operate in, or is it is it really just Portland all in?
Michael Hamilton:That's interesting because yes and no. I would say, yes, we are looking at other markets. We have an assisted living facility we're doing in Oregon City.
Nicholas Cook:Right. Need those too.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. We need those too. But as far as multifamily housing, we have a contrarian view where we know Portland's difficult. It's actually extremely difficult. It's not only difficult to get something designed and permitted.
Michael Hamilton:It's difficult to go through construction. It's difficult to deal with the public headline risk that comes with developing in Portland. Mhmm. And and at the same time, we've been here our whole lives. And so we feel like, you know, we've got relationships at the city in the planning review process.
Michael Hamilton:We've got these relationships that are really valuable. So we look at it like, hey, it's really difficult for other people. Great.
Nicholas Cook:Buried entry?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. Buried entry is high. Excellent. We've cut our teeth in Portland. And so we like that.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm. I think the data shows that, hence the housing shortage that we have. Sure. But we're always open to markets that make sense for our business. You know, I I think that I learned from other developers not to do too much, too quick, too fast.
Michael Hamilton:You know, I think that the fastest way to our goals at Seneca are slow. And I think that that means planting a flag somewhere and building up a war chest or a portfolio of assets that can sustain you through market cycles, but can also allow you to freely, and responsibly expand the business. Because we have in house construction, it's really important for us that, we have our hands on the project. And so if there was a, let's say, Medford, Oregon, just the best deal of all time, we'd probably turn it down right now. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:You know, we might make a referral, but we wouldn't tackle it just because it doesn't make sense for the business.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:You know, and then when you look at like Beaverton or Tiger, I think they're great markets. But I think what we've been banking on is, Portland, kinda turning around to more common sense. And so the SDC waiver proposal, that governor Kotak and mayor Wilson announced, If it goes through and it is approved, frankly, I think developing in Portland from a financial perspective makes a hell of a lot more sense than developing in Beaverton or Tigard or these other areas that still have SDC charges. Don't get me wrong.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:But you can save substantially on the up upfront cost of things. And so that's something that we wanna take advantage of.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. I mean, that's a huge game changer on the development side. I mean, especially on your soft costs and especially given how high they've been.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:So that was great to see. I think my commentary on that is, cool. Let's build more. We need to do that. But somebody has to wanna buy and hold what is built.
Michael Hamilton:Yes. Right? Yes.
Nicholas Cook:And that goes more on the operational side of things. Are you guys looking at you know, you mentioned portfolio. You guys are looking at building and holding? Are you guys building and selling? Or is it just depend on where the market goes?
Nicholas Cook:What are your guys' take on that?
Michael Hamilton:It depends. I mean, let's put it this way. It's it's like the godfather offer. Someone gives you an offer you can't refuse, you're gonna sell the building. Right?
Michael Hamilton:And and and Portland has experienced that. Right? It's like pre COVID and even after COVID, there were buildings going for sub four caps because
Nicholas Cook:Insane.
Michael Hamilton:These the institutional money needed to be deployed. Right? It was so delayed during COVID. They had a huge bucket of cash and they're willing to get competitive in Portland because the underlying fundamentals of Portland makes sense. Right?
Michael Hamilton:And so we just look at it like that cycle where we when we model our projects, we our iteration of a financial model goes out to ten years. Mhmm. And then we do a three year and a five year. And we say, hey, if we hit our five year number in year three, we're selling in year three. If we hit our ten year in year five, we're selling year five.
Michael Hamilton:So it just really depends on on the flexibility of the market. I mean, ultimately, we wanna hold assets. And at this juncture, you know, a lot of it also comes down to our investors. We're stewards of our investors. We we feel like a lot of our investors like to know that we're working in their best interest.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm. And development is a it's not a very liquid investment to make. Right? It's like you're placing that money in there and you're sitting for five years. And things can change throughout that duration for a particular investor.
Michael Hamilton:And so we've got some investors that say, hey, we wanna park it, hold the building for as long as you can. And we've got other investors that say, hey, we're at a five year timeline on this. Yeah. And so we like to pull those investors together in certain assets and pull the longer term investors in certain assets.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That makes sense. And what are some of the kind of the highlights? And maybe this is not as critical if you're dealing with a lot of local investors.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:But, you know, as you know, the headlines Portland has had inside and outside of housing over the last five to eight years have not been glamorous. So, like, what what's the narrative? What's the story that you're kinda telling them?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, I would say 75 I would say 75% of investors that we talk to about an opportunity that don't invest, don't invest because of that. Because of the headline. Just they're just like, we don't wanna touch Portland. As they don't know the they can be as informed as possible on all the data and all the economic fundamentals that make it make sense for an investment.
Michael Hamilton:They just don't wanna be in Portland. They don't wanna play Monmouth County taxes. And so at that juncture, it's kinda like, okay. But then you have people that don't like Portland, but they wanna listen. Okay.
Michael Hamilton:We don't like Portland, but what you know, they're asking the question you're asking. Why are you guys doing this? And once you can lay out the story, fundamentally of Portland, I mean, I always take people back to 02/2015. 02/2015, Portland was a top 10 city to invest in multifamily. It was a top tourist destination.
Michael Hamilton:Well, what happened in 2017 with inclusionary housing shut that spigot right off. I mean, of course, it's not attractive for investment. Your investment's now capped. And I think from 02/2017, then also getting hit with COVID and now, you know, five years after COVID, we're just reaping what we've sowed. Right?
Michael Hamilton:And and and our story is frankly the pendulum swings. Right? We don't think we're in a Detroit situation where it swings and stays there and doesn't come back. We think that Portland will come back. I mean, especially with the investments and potential investments of an MLB team.
Michael Hamilton:I mean, there's a lot of what makes Portland attractive. And having lived here our whole lives, we we that's what we're betting on.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Great. That makes sense. Well, we're gonna take a quick break for a word from our sponsor, then we'll get back to learn more about what you're doing at Seneca Development.
Michael Hamilton:Sweet. Sounds good. Cool.
Nicholas Cook:This show is sponsored by Sleep Sound Property Management, one of Portland's largest and top rated management companies that specializes in multifamily and residential real estate. They can help you acquire, operate, protect, and sell or exchange your properties. If you want to invest in real estate, give them a call or visit them online at sleepsoundpm.com. That's sleepsoundpm.com. Alright.
Nicholas Cook:We're back. Alright. So we're gonna dive into this a little bit more. I just wanna pivot just a little bit. We've been talking a lot about kind of just some of the development in the market and so Maybe you could tell us a little bit more about the team behind Seneca and, like, what you guys are doing.
Nicholas Cook:I mean, obviously, what you're building now requires a lot of expertise.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:And, you know, going from building some houses to, you know, 18 unit and then so Now you guys are breaking 100 unit style buildings Mhmm. Which is pretty next level. So maybe you could talk about, just the team that's kind of part of part of that.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, I would say in formulating the team, one thing is it happened really naturally. We're all partners on a on a development project, and, it was a development project we did during COVID, which was, as you can imagine, is Rough times. As fun as it could be. Right?
Michael Hamilton:Sure. But we found success together, working together throughout that that that diff the difficulties that COVID provided for development, and kind of all looked at each other and said, maybe we could do something here because I'm gonna continue to do this if you're gonna continue to do this. So it was very natural and organic as far as how we came together, and, I think what I'm grateful for about it is that it's it met my original ethos of getting into real estate in the place, which was become an expert in something really difficult
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm.
Michael Hamilton:And use that expertise to your advantage. And so we're we're really fortunate to have one of my partners, Andy Schreck, as you know, he's got thirty five plus years of product executive experience building 40 story high rises, high-tech corporate campuses, and so our construction capability is vast. Yeah. And it also helps us sleep at night knowing that we're all committed to being on time and on budget because ultimately it's us paying for being over budget and over schedule. So that that's a huge component of it.
Michael Hamilton:And so Andy runs primarily the construction division of the company, and then Bryant and I are kind of like a two headed monster. It's it's you know, we meet every day and we just kind of both naturally take responsibility for certain things. Bryant's a lot more, I would say, of like a COO and investor relations, curating those relationships. And then I primarily lead the acquisition, financial modeling, capital structuring of each of the projects. And so that's kind of how three of us jive together.
Nicholas Cook:Got it. And do you kind of envision I mean, obviously, you've got some plans to be here long term. You've talked about, you know, there's some big firms in town, you know, some of them that might, you know they focused either on commercial or, you know, they've got teams that, you know, are 50 plus, 100 plus employees. You know, is that kind of the direction you guys wanna go, or are you aiming to be kind of more, you know, nimble and kind of closer to the chest, kind of small operator? What's kind of your plan for that?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, you know, I think a business goes through certain growth growth spurts at certain times. You know, the the nice thing about having the difficulty of building through COVID is it was a reminder to remain nimble and and and realizing maybe you don't need the Twentieth Floor at the Bancorp Tower in order to run a business. Maybe you have a nimble office and you got nimble overhead. At the same time, you know, from the investment management development side, you don't need a ton of personnel for that.
Michael Hamilton:What you need a ton of personnel for in our space is the construction side of the business. Sure. And so as long as we can keep our construction team active, you know, there are times where we might not not have a project and we've gotta let people go for the time being. Mhmm. But that's a natural progression that happens in construction.
Michael Hamilton:You know, when you get a construction resume, that person's worked at six places the last seven years, and each time it goes, oh, they didn't have a job for me. So they move on to the next one. That's natural for us. You know, our goal isn't to be the largest within the next five or ten years. It is a goal to be a substantial institutional real estate owner within the next twenty years.
Michael Hamilton:And I think it's gonna be one of those things that it's like we're a frog and boiling water, where all of a sudden we're gonna find ourselves and like, wow, okay, we did it. But again, we're a very organic business and so we don't take on debt for expansion. We take on debt to develop properties. Sure. You know, we've all got families and whatnot.
Michael Hamilton:And so when we started the business, there was a ton of reinvesting capital. Now we're paying ourselves salaries and all that fun stuff. And so, yeah, we'll we'll remain nimble for the best interest of not only ourselves, but also our investors.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That makes sense. Well, just kind of, the other thing too that's a huge hot topic right now and is always, like, forefront of mind, is rising costs of, you know, construction, supply chain disruptions.
Michael Hamilton:Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:We've obviously got a lot of conversations around tariffs and things like that. What are you guys thinking about the current environment in terms of stability around construction cost and around the tariffs and stuff like that?
Michael Hamilton:You know, I how much time do you have?
Nicholas Cook:I know. I know. That's a that's a loaded question. That is a loaded question.
Michael Hamilton:So we've performed this analysis since the terrorists were in our what was it called? Liberation Day? Ever since that was announced, we started diving into analyzing how it's gonna impact our projects. Yeah. And I'll give you a 30,000 foot view of what that analysis entails, which is we've got a project, we've obviously got a built out estimate for the project.
Michael Hamilton:We've got pricing from subs for that project, and let's say we've got a $10,000,000 project. Well, of that $10,000,000, let's say five of it's material. Alright. So our exposures on that 5,000,000. Okay.
Michael Hamilton:Now let's reach out to each of our subcontractors and their suppliers to make sure that they have their supply chain dialed in to make sure that, you know, some companies even have tariff exemptions. So we've made some phone calls where they're like, just it doesn't apply to us. And so I think that that's an important component to consider.
Nicholas Cook:It's nuance in it.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. When you hear this big, like, oh, there's tariffs, costs are gonna rise. That's true. That's what it would eventually do, but one, it takes time. And two, we're also in a market where developing real estates really hard.
Michael Hamilton:So it's not like there's a ton of demand for these materials, which will also kind of shrink back the cost a little bit. Or ultimately, we are looking at anywhere from a five to 8% increase on project cost, which is substantial. Mhmm. But when you hear a 145% tariff, no costs are not gonna go up a 145%.
Nicholas Cook:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Something that can be absorbed and over time.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. Lenders are now asking for larger contingencies. You know, typically, we're at a 4%. We had a lender the other day that says they want us to have a 10% contingency. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:You know, and and so that's where we're at.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And can you unpack contingency a little bit more like construction contingency for people who maybe aren't as familiar with the Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:So you'll have a a built out budget that includes your general contractors, supervision, all the materials, the labor to develop the building, right, to construct the building. And then if that budget's 10,000,000, you'll add, at least in our case, we'll add a four to 5% contingency. So we'll we'll actually add another $400,000 on top of that 10 and we consider that money spent. I mean, stuff happens where you've gotta use contingency funds. Maybe you need to up security a little bit more than you thought you needed to.
Michael Hamilton:Major
Nicholas Cook:protests down the street and occupation happening.
Michael Hamilton:So so so that's what we'll do. We'll allocate a bucket, a line item essentially, which is a slush fund of money to to cover shortfalls. Got it. That makes sense. And how are just,
Nicholas Cook:like, the general market conditions influencing your guys' decision making? You know, everyone's been kind of, you know, survive, you know, to 25. It's been the story around interest rates. And now we're halfway through '25, and it sounds like just the other day that we're not gonna be making any movements here. There's a little bit of a face off here between administration and the Fed.
Nicholas Cook:You know? Yeah. How how are interest rates, impacting your guys' decisions to to develop?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, we are we look at things on historical averages. Right? So mortgage rates and commercial average are around 5%. A good example or maybe rental rate increases where historically, they go up 3% a year.
Michael Hamilton:So that's what we model regardless of the noise. And then we always stress test those models. Okay. Well, if rates aren't at 5% and they actually go up to 8%, can we still take out the debt that we took out for the construction? We can?
Michael Hamilton:Great. Then the project works. But so we set up these different stress tests and we've got base I would call them basis point parameters where, hey, if rates increase 250 basis points from where they are today, can we can we make it? You know, I don't wanna say, god, if they go at 500 basis points, our projects are screwed, but that's the reality of the market. Right?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. At the same time, there's also like what we're talking about with the tariffs, there's so much nuance to market conditions. And, you know, the survive to '25 thing, I think a lot of people are shocked that there's not a lot more underwater. Mhmm. But then you look at the unrealized losses that banks have taken on commercial real estate, and you're like, oh, that's who's underwater
Nicholas Cook:right And
Michael Hamilton:then you kind of take into the factor, well, a lot of these banks are publicly traded. They probably don't want a bunch of bad loans on their quarterly reportings that hurt their stock price. So they're gonna extend the loan. Yeah. And so, you know, it's been this almost this face off that you said, but there's also a face off between the confidence and treasury bonds where we've had interest rates cut.
Michael Hamilton:Our our construction loans have dropped more than our sizing on permanent loans. So we're looking at it like what our construction pricing has gotten better, but our permanent loan hasn't gotten any better. How is that gonna play out? Yeah. And again, so how we analyze is just stress test it and if the project still makes sense at a certain point, we'll move forward.
Michael Hamilton:There's also projects that we have designed that we haven't submitted because we know it doesn't make sense right now.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That makes sense. So, you know, a lot of times people say, you know, you wanna invest with the demographics. Obviously, we've got a lot of changes happening, whether that's, you know, generational changes, aging populations, remote work. How is any of that playing into the amenities, the design of the buildings?
Nicholas Cook:Like, are you guys factoring for that in what you're doing?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. It's a great question. So I would say only one of our projects, which is two buildings, has retail space. And on the Robert Building, we decided to put living spaces on the Ground Floor with a nice lobby. Well, what we've done, at a new project that we'll be starting hopefully in the next couple months, is we've decided that we're we're gonna not have any income producing space on the Ground Floor.
Michael Hamilton:We're gonna make works work areas. One of our buildings has a speakeasy designed in it, but we want to make tenants feel like they don't have to go far from home. Yeah. And so adding infrared saunas, making sure we're located next to a coffee shop, making it feel like someone can go downstairs, work, really work, because some people, they like working from home, they don't wanna work from their living room.
Nicholas Cook:Totally.
Michael Hamilton:So creating a nice workspace for them, a private workspace for them, Those are the things we're designing in our building because we think they're they're long term needs. We don't see that remote work is going to completely go away. I think it's gonna be pulled back. People are gonna continue to go back to the office, but it's still gonna exist. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:So that's what we're doing in our buildings as far as design goes.
Nicholas Cook:Interesting. Cool. And do you see I mean, do you think I mean, obviously, you guys have your vision for what Portland can be and what where it's headed. Do you feel like that other maybe competitors or peers feel the same way?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I think they do. You know, we're we're we're a unique company for the type of product we build just in terms of how new we are, you know. It's like the Trammell Crow just submitted a project. It's 250 units in Selwood market rate.
Michael Hamilton:And I read the article and it felt really good to know a company like Trammell Crow's thinking how we're thinking. Yeah. Which is Portland's got a lot of legs. It's got a lot of problems. And if we can be a part of the solution, there's gonna be a lot of upside to that.
Michael Hamilton:And so knowing that our almost contrarian thinking is being thought for thought by also by these larger companies based out of Dallas, Texas, for example,
Nicholas Cook:I mean,
Michael Hamilton:that's where Trammell Crow is. Yeah. Makes us feel like we're making the right decision. It's almost a reinforcement. But at the same time, a lot of my colleagues are moving out to these Beaverton's, Tigard's outside of Gresham, these other markets because one, they're not gonna go to Scottsdale.
Michael Hamilton:It's really hard to move a development company somewhere else. But they know that there's opportunity in these other markets that make more sense to do it in. And so I think a lot of guys, probably like us, have projects that are designed that are just sitting on the sideline until something happens to make it worthwhile.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Well, let's hope that more of those projects, you know, come into the pipeline because we obviously are gonna we're gonna need that. Yeah. Are there things that you've learned in the process of building these projects that you're like, hey, that design doesn't work. That amenity, we don't need or we do need.
Nicholas Cook:You know, what kind of things have you guys started to tweak in terms of some of the projects and and and terms of just, you know, delivering a product that's gonna have to meet the demand, really Yeah. Of the customer.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah, man. You know, I think one of the things I'm surprised about, and I wouldn't say we've necessarily changed it, is the amount of parking that you have to provide. You know, I think Oregon did a statewide parking reduction where you don't have to you could do 200 units. You don't have to have a single parking spot.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That's Which is
Michael Hamilton:pretty freaking wild. And we've all we had, you know, the robber, our 55 unit did have parking requirements. So we had to design that building with, I believe it's 15 parking spots for 55 units. And we still don't have all of them leased up because that's just not the demographic of rental we have. So some of our larger buildings have reduced parking counts, but we still offer the parking.
Michael Hamilton:We're we, you know, we're gonna face the reality that some people still own cars. I think that that cars are gonna be a thing for quite some time.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Things aren't going away. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of, you know, it's just you live we live in an area that while the neighborhood might be walkable and we have access to transit, one the reasons people are here is for the outdoors. And, you know, you can't take a bus to Mount Hood or to the beach and Yep.
Nicholas Cook:I mean, it's just not practical.
Michael Hamilton:Exactly. Exactly. And so parking is something that I would say we we haven't changed. It's something we are putting in buildings even though we're not required to just because, you know, they always say, you're building for a tenant, you're not building for yourself. I think that's partially true because when I look at them, I would never stay anywhere that I couldn't park my car at.
Michael Hamilton:I know that much. Yeah. And so we we we offer the parking, but I think the biggest change we've made, well, two of them, is recognizing that most people don't want to be street facing in an apartment building. They don't necessarily wanna walk out their front door right to the sidewalk. Mhmm.
Michael Hamilton:You know, for whether it's security reasons or noise or what have you. And so our buildings now, we don't have any of that. It's all the essentially, the entire Ground Floor is curated as almost like an adult playground, where we we want multiple spaces on the Ground Floor that are combined together that people can hang out at. Where I think one of the things that that that we had maybe missed in our initial building, and not terribly, but it's something I do see missed often is people wanna brag about where they live.
Nicholas Cook:Oh, totally.
Michael Hamilton:You know, they wanna be like, oh, check out the Exactly. And so if you can build a space, we think about it. If you can build a space people wanna brag about, that's a huge win.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. No. I mean, I think that's huge, and that's something that I think a lot of times people don't consider. I mean, it's true with employment too. Right?
Nicholas Cook:There are people who work at some fairly large companies, you know, some of the the leaders in Oregon. The comp is not actually that great. Yes. And it's just people want to be able to say that, you know, I rep this company and Yep. We have, you know, these amenities.
Nicholas Cook:But, if you're looking at it from just a compensation standpoint, it's nothing nothing to brag about. But, you know, that's that's a great competitive advantage. Entirely true. Think that's something I I think that's a great insight. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Very much so. Great. Well, I guess, you know, what haven't I asked about that you think would be important for investors to know? Somebody that wants to maybe get into development, but maybe someone wants to invest with you guys. Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:You know, what what would you like to share that I haven't already asked you about? It's a good question.
Michael Hamilton:Let me think about that. I would probably say, what is something you have not asked me that people should know about? You know, I think something to think about, you know, as we talk about the the topic of Portland and it maybe not having the most positive view is for for an investor. This is actually a really good example. I'm glad you asked the question because this this is a good data is there's a balance is needed.
Michael Hamilton:And when there's an imbalance in a market, whether it's not enough supply like where we're here in Portland, But you can also look at markets like Austin, Texas, where people are like, oh, Austin's the place to be to invest in. Oh my gosh, that's where all the money's going. And over the last five years, Austin, Texas, Portland have the same 2,400,000 population for MSA. That's really interesting. And in that five years, Austin's developed a 100,000 apartment units.
Michael Hamilton:In Portland, we've developed 10,000. So only 10% with the same population. Well, what's happened in Austin, Texas is a dramatic drop in rental rates. And so as an investor, you gotta be aware of those things where for the last five years, that was the hottest thing people were talking about was Austin, Texas, and now it's a huge problem. It is a huge problem.
Michael Hamilton:And so I would say, look at the balance between, okay, well, now you got oversupply, what happens to those rents? They go down. Yeah. Well, we're very fortunate in Portland from an investor standpoint to be in an area that is severely undersupplied. And like I mentioned earlier, not just undersupplied, most undersupplied city in the entire United States.
Michael Hamilton:So Yeah. There's upside there. And so I think that's something that investors need to be observant about is just, you know, not everything that what is it? That glitters isn't gold. Sure.
Nicholas Cook:Definitely not.
Michael Hamilton:That's that's probably what I would say for an investor to to keep an eye out for is that if everyone's going somewhere
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:We might have a problem.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. And you know, I think about that too. Know, you see articles like, you know, whether it's on BiggerPockets or something else where they're like, you know, most unknown cities or whatever happens to me, it's like, well, now it's known. Right? So it's like Exactly.
Nicholas Cook:You know, it's just like and so if you've got you know, you can move with trends if your horizon is short. Mhmm. Right? You can go in and capture that. But if you've got something that's, you know, three plus years, five years especially, I mean, whole world can change in five years.
Michael Hamilton:Yes. I
Nicholas Cook:mean, just five years ago is 2020. So, I mean Jeez. Obviously, that's a great example. Great. Well, what we're gonna do here is we're gonna pivot a little bit to learn a little bit more about Michael here, mister Hamilton.
Nicholas Cook:So I've got a couple questions here I like to ask
Michael Hamilton:people. That's
Nicholas Cook:right. You know, if you could have dinner with one person dead or alive, who would it be?
Michael Hamilton:Oh, that's easy. Jesus Christ. Yeah. Yeah. Easy.
Michael Hamilton:That's an easy one.
Nicholas Cook:Do you have any questions lined up?
Michael Hamilton:Oh, gosh. What questions do I have lined up? I don't know. I think if I actually sat down and had dinner with Jesus, I think I would talk to him like a buddy. Yeah.
Michael Hamilton:I think I'd be like, alright, man. How nice is it up there? Is the place furnished? What do you got to eat? But I think really, would just it'd be nice to know for for certainty why certain things happen, you know, and and whether they're, you know, I'm a I'm a believer.
Michael Hamilton:I'm Christian. And so for me, there's been so many things in my life that have maybe seemed unfortunate at the time. And then I'm like, holy smokes, that's the best thing that ever happened to me. Yeah. And I think that also reinforces my belief in Jesus.
Michael Hamilton:And so being able to say, hey, was that some was that was that free will or did you set that one up? Think that would be kind of fun to pick his brain about.
Nicholas Cook:Great. And then the one is, if you had to choose whiskey or wine, what would it be?
Michael Hamilton:Oh, whiskey.
Nicholas Cook:Whiskey?
Michael Hamilton:Yeah. I mean, I I was kind of a wine I wouldn't say wine snob because that tastes like tastes like the other one, but but my wife liked being at a couple wineries and and, I think I've I've overstayed my welcome. Not because it's been crazy, but I'm just
Nicholas Cook:You're on 86 now.
Michael Hamilton:I'm like, no. Not not yet. But, I tell you, a nice neat glass of, whiskey will will do it for me.
Nicholas Cook:Do have any favorites?
Michael Hamilton:Oh, what are my favorites? Okay. I don't remember the name of this, but I'm gonna send it to you. My architect got me a bottle from Japan that is only sold at one small airport in Japan, and it's a bottle that's a samurai. And you take off the samurai head and and drink the whiskey.
Michael Hamilton:It's like a smoky whiskey.
Nicholas Cook:Okay.
Michael Hamilton:But I can't remember the name, but I'll send it to
Nicholas Cook:you. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I just like the the bottle sounds cool.
Michael Hamilton:Oh, yeah. Mean, who knows? Probably a $10 bottle. I don't know. That's the story that came with the bottle, so I like it.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. You know, it's funny. I had a friend one time who had been traveling abroad and he brought me like this bottle of wine. And it was kinda before I knew much about wine. Mhmm.
Nicholas Cook:And I kind of like cherished it because one, I was like, wow, this is thoughtful that they brought this. And it's also from a different country.
Michael Hamilton:Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:And, and so I kinda sat on it for a while. And then eventually, like, we opened it, and I don't know if I stored it wrong or whatever, but it was, like, not It was just not good. And and then my girlfriend, because she just loves to Google everything, looked it up, and it was like a $12 bottle of wine. And so I was like, oh
Michael Hamilton:my god. There you go. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. I was like, I should probably do some research
Michael Hamilton:for you
Nicholas Cook:and that stuff. But and then the other question, the last question I have here, is there something that your parents did really well that as a parent yourself that you wanna carry forward in how you raise your children? Well, that's a
Michael Hamilton:really good question, Nick. Yeah. I mean, so growing up, I didn't come from a time, but something that was just, I would just say burned into us was, if you're gonna do something, you're gonna do it right. And you're gonna at least try to be the very best you can at it. And so whether it was sports or what have you, it was like, it almost built in this obsession that if I was gonna do something, I almost wanted to be obsessed with it, so I could learn about it, and I could understand how to do it the best way possible.
Michael Hamilton:And naturally, now that's that's how I am as an adult is is when I get into something, I'm I I really wanna learn it well. And it's something I've I've certainly feel like I've passed on to my kids where it's, you know, there's there's a standard. And nothing's gonna be given to you, but the reality is it's very simple to be successful in my opinion. It's very simple, but it's a lot of work. Sure.
Michael Hamilton:It's not easy. It's simple. Right? You gotta you gotta know what you're talking about. You gotta execute.
Michael Hamilton:You gotta keep your commitments. Those are all simple things to understand, but you've gotta be the best possible version of yourself in order to do any of those things. And so I think my parents, it was there there's no no slack on on not showing up. And not just showing up, but staying late. You know, it's like my parents, they take me to, let's say, a lacrosse practice, and as soon as I got home, it would be alright, go in the backyard and keep practicing, you know.
Michael Hamilton:And so that that to me has always been a thing. It's like, you just gotta do more than who who's next to you. You don't have to, you know, necessarily even be smarter than the person next to you, but you gotta be there longer than them. And then you think about, I think as I grew up, you learned about like the Michael Jordans and the Kobe Bryant's of the world, and these guys that were obsessed with their craft, and it just became very simple for me to buy into, oh, well, that works. Like, if obsess over it, then clearly, will be an outcome that's in my favor.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Definitely. Well, you've definitely weathered some storms in the market, and that tenacity has obviously come you know, help helped a lot in terms of pulling you through that and on the other side of the tunnel. And you guys are doing some really cool things at Seneca. So wanted to, again, thank you for for joining us today.
Nicholas Cook:And I think a lot of people, will be excited to hear what you have to say.
Michael Hamilton:Sweet, man. Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Thank you. Good luck with your projects, and, and we'll talk again soon.
Michael Hamilton:Great, man. Thank you, Nick.
Nicholas Cook:And that concludes today's episode of retire on rentals. But we do have a quick favor to ask before you jump off. If you haven't already, please go ahead and like and subscribe. More engagement means better content and more excellent guests. And we look forward to joining you on your real estate journey.
Nicholas Cook:Now remember, stay focused, stay driven, so you can retire on rentals.