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Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Mishu Hilmy (00:03)
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery, where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life, and that steady, and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold, risky moves.
So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, this is Mishu and welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we are talking with CJ Arlejano, is an award-winning indie filmmaker whose work blends horror, comedy, and fantasy to satirize human behavior and explore our darker impulses.
His short film, Dry January, won Best Horror Comedy at the Holly Shorts Comedy Film Festival. And his short, Griffica, took home the Audience Award at Out on Film, Atlanta's LGBTQ plus festival. In addition to his festival wins and screenplay accolades, he has also directed brand content for major clients like McDonald's, Motorola, and the Second City. CJ has also edited one of the shorts I directed a few years ago, and that was lots of fun to get to work together on. So it lovely to get to chat with CJ again.
And we talked about making horror comedies on your own terms, the collapsing industry pathways for independent filmmakers and why Instagram is sometimes pretty perfect for stupid bullshit, but not being the best for deep narrative work. And we also get into vertical content going viral, ironic detachment and the tug of war between dopamine feeds and craft. You can check out more at his website, CJRLiano.com and his Instagram CJLGVA.
and his substack and I'll put all those in this show notes. Also his short film, Dry January is currently making the festival rounds. So keep a lookout for where it may be screening near you. So here it is, me and CJ hope you enjoy.
CJ Arellano (02:09)
I don't know. It's too complicated. mean, you ask how am I feeling? It's kind of like a loaded question or it's like so easy to just not go to like the darn bad place because of like today's headlines, et cetera, but then also like the state of the industry, et cetera. And I'm not even like in the industry, full disclosure. I'm like industry adjacent. You know, I'm an indie filmmaker, right? But the industry, what's going on with the industry capital I certainly affects everything that I'm doing in terms of not just the corporate and industrial
that I do to like get paid, also like the bigger, grander chess moves that I'm like attempting to make that I've been like trying to make for years. So things are dire, as you know, as your listeners probably know, but that affords me and a lot of my other fellow artists kind of like this like free reign. Like since it's the Wild West, there's like no reason to like play by the rule or play by the conventional rules. We can kind of like make up our own rules or like the...
There's no established convention anymore, or like it's becoming more and more irrelevant by the day. So that kind of leaves me to kind of make up my own chess game. So to answer your question broadly, that's how I'm feeling. I'm feeling hopeful because there's not even a chess board anymore. So we can all invent what this game is together.
think that's probably the most positive and healthy spin to decide how you want to play the game versus committing to a game that's been broken. I think about platforms. 50 years ago, the platform was TV, radio, and movie theaters. And then it changed to TV, radio, and DVDs, and VHSs. And I think just with social media, that just destroyed.
the idea of like, well, a traditional platform was, and I think those old platforms were designed to make money while these new ones are designed to make advertisers, you know, pay
CJ Arellano (03:59)
Right, right, yeah. Squeeze free work out of... In some cases, not even involve the creatives at all.
Yeah, it's four or is it?
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. talked to I talked to someone a few weeks ago about like Google, like, what would or part of YouTube? What if there'd be like a filmmakers union for YouTube? I'm like, no, that makes YouTube would never allow that. Like what unionized YouTube content?
goes against the basic design of YouTube. Yeah, platforms, it's interesting. I'm a 90s baby. So of course I have this incredible fondness for like movies and television. That's what got me into this. So it'd be weird if I like turn my back on those platforms, the walls together. just, wouldn't feel right. Like in my bones, it would feel very wrong. I do want to, you
Yeah. Yeah.
CJ Arellano (04:45)
Maybe not be like an early adopter, but I don't want to be like stuck in my boots or stuck in the mud or whatever, right? Like I do want to embrace these like newer platforms. And so I've experimented with like, you know, bite-sized minute long content on Instagram. Instagram is like a great outlet for any like bullshit stupid idea I have. Like I'm always trying to be like prestige or intelligent or, you know, come correct in some way when I'm doing it.
you know, my feature film ideas are like TV pilot ideas, but Instagram is great just for stupid bullshit. Right. And so I, I like it. I like these newer platforms, these new media platforms for that. And of course you get a ton of eyeballs on your work and, and that's amazing too. But in terms of like actual narratives, I guess like the point that I'm kind of circling to is like, I haven't gotten around.
to really exploring the sandbox that is like, well, the Quibi sandbox, even though Quibi is dead, or like all of these, all of these like bite-sized little narratives that are designed to just like keep you clicking over to the next thing. But then I'll talk to some of my friends like in LA or elsewhere, and they're saying, well, that's where all the money is. We just go and shoot like 60 of these in a mansion in the middle of nowhere for like one weekend. And it's great. Like, you know, I get paid so much.
That's awesome. That's a lot of fun. I just haven't gotten around to it yet. And it doesn't really appeal to me as a consumer because I haven't really like delved into that stuff as a consumer.
Yeah, it's it's a lot to think about like I think about like media magnostic like if you're sort of obsessed with image making or like love of story I think there ideally is a degree of like desire to experiment and the same time as being aware of your own taste right like I saw someone editing on an airplane like a vertical series that's like exactly that like kind of almost feels pornographic it gives like porn actor vibes yeah I don't I don't seek it out and I don't know who seeks it out there's
Mishu Hilmy (06:48)
definitely gotta be an audience. imagine it's the same people who like watching things on Facebook. That's my judgment. People who like watching content on Facebook probably like these vertical series.
Right, right. think... I say such snobby things or I think such snobby thoughts even if I don't want to. And so the snobby thought that I have is like, I think if you can sell me on like the A24 version of vertical content or like, or the artsy or the art house version, you know, if you can tell me that there's actual like, there's like a high art or like high craftsmanship way of doing that kind of content.
then I can be sold on exploring it both as a consumer and a creator.
Yeah. I wonder if it also reminds you of just like soap operas where there's an audience of, don't know. It's like, honestly, soap opera is probably like the earliest form of brain rot of just like, this is there. So it seems like that might be the vibe. But I'm, wonder if like, because of where we're at or what we like, it's like the platform of a film festival or a theatrical release or a deep narrative or a deep emotional experience. I really struggle to see.
I just haven't seen it because I'm not looking for it. But if someone came to me and said, you got to watch this 18 part vertical series that takes place in the mansion about a 52 year old man seducing a 21 year old woman, like how moving it is. Maybe I'd check it out, but it seems unlikely.
CJ Arellano (08:10)
But you know what, I do want to offset what we're describing with what you just mentioned, which is soap operas. Soap operas came about with radio, but then on TV, like in the 40s and 50s, and they were designed to just sell soap. That's why they're called soap operas. But from soap operas, long form narrative television was birthed, right? And so you can draw a line from soap operas to things that we would.
quote unquote, respect a little more artistically, like prestige dramas, know, Mad Men, The Wire, et cetera. They all have their roots in soap operas. So maybe I think that there is something to be respected about like this new and burgeoning format. So I don't want to discount it, but unfortunately I'm not going to be the one to be an early adopter. Maybe I should change that.
Yeah, I also think it's kind of old school to a degree because it is like serious. Maybe it's serialized. I just don't know enough about it. And maybe that's my homework to like learn about it and not be so judgy and snobby. So maybe that's takeaway. But I also think like the trends seem to be more like chronically online and like a meta or a post. What is it? I don't know what the saying is, but like post postmodern approach, like the experience of being
Consuming short form media is like it is a meta cultural experience that's not contained within itself, but it's like self referential that I don't know if some of these more like vertical series are aimed at. I don't know if I'm making sense, it seems like
I I get what you're saying. We're not really going after immersion anymore. The traditional way of conceiving a film is like, I got lost in it. know, I believe for two hours I was with those characters and sinners and I was like pleading with them for them to like live as they fought the vampires.
CJ Arellano (09:56)
But there's more of like an ironic detachment with like this vertical content. Like it's not supposed to be good. It's not supposed to be immersive. It is supposed to like keep you clicking to the next thing. And as a consumer, I'm hip to that. I'm in on the joke, I guess.
What makes this industry harder, I think it's challenges like to know that anyone wants a specific type of experience and what maybe we sort of yearned for it, maybe the indie or the art house or the filmic, whether it's experimental or narrative, like something that someone can sit with rather now it's like, no, I just want to go to the dopamine slot machine and like enjoy. And that's totally valid. It's like lose yourself in 90 minutes. mean, yesterday I was, you know, 42 minutes on TikTok just swiping.
It's not like the most nourishing, it still serves a weird. It's just passing time. It's like a way to pass time.
Exactly. It scratches an itch. That's for sure. I mean, I'm always, I feel like such a hypocrite because I see the content beast, right? Like I'm creating the content for Instagram and yet at the same time I'm trying to like wean myself off Instagram. It's like I'm trying to push the drugs at the same time. Like get clean. I mean, I don't, I don't know. It's rough. But again, I think it's just like that nostalgic pull.
Yeah.
CJ Arellano (11:15.722)
if nothing else, like just being raised on film and television. I'm gonna be with those more traditional linear media until the end of my life.
Yeah, haven't I think this might be the first time I've explicitly thought about it. But it's like, there's a difference between solitary attention and communal attention. And I think maybe there's an implicit value or moral to like, I still appreciate being with people all paying attention to the same thing versus me alone rotting in my couch, paying attention to my what my eyes are projecting onto the screen that the algorithm like knows will titillate me.
Right, right, right. That's so true. I mean, it's easy for me to go to the theater because there's a movie theater, a 10 minute walk, you know, from me. I don't have children. I know that, you know, just like sending up a babysitter and doing all of that, or taking your kids to the cinema and then paying for like all the food and the drinks. Like I know that there's a lot of financial barriers. So it's easy for me to be like, no, people should go to the theater because I do it all the time. But to me, it is still worth it. Especially when you see like
like I just saw friendship last week starring Ken Robinson, which was amazing. And just from the jump, just from him existing on screen, I was already laughing. And I just, I don't feel that I would get that same rush if I was just watching it, you know, either on my phone, God forbid, or like even on my big screen, TV at home. There is like that, that communal thing to your point that really, really adds to the experience. And I'll take it one step further. I attend these.
Survivor watch parties. I huge. And there's a great one in Brooklyn called they operate under the banner Fruity Island at Crystal Lake bar in Brooklyn. And it's so gratifying to like watch this like stupid reality show. course, you know, fans in the know, no, it's not stupid at all. It's life with, you know, this group of people and we're cheering at like every single challenge win and blindside. And I know that I don't get those, you know, those strong.
Mishu Hilmy (12:52.097)
Yeah.
CJ Arellano (13:20.02)
euphoric reactions when I'm just like catching up on Survivor at home. Like I'm just watching for the outcome. Like, okay, who won the challenge? Who went home? Okay, great. And I don't really like laugh or get into it once. Not, not really. Right. So there is something about community that I just don't want to lose. maybe if there were communal platform or platforms, communal opportunities or watching like short form content.
which there are, you can go to the theater and watch like cat videos with people, right? But if there was more of that, then maybe I would be more sold on short form that's available just on your phone.
Right. Yeah, that would be an interesting event experience, like sort of best of cat videos. And I'm sure there are some like niche or monthly things that producers are making, whether a random indie theater in, you know, Brooklyn or whereabouts. yeah.
100%. 100%. It exists. And I'm sure it exists in Chicago, too. And you have to refine it, because it will heal your soul.
Yeah, someone curates 120 vertical videos that are just kind of like going going through. Yeah, yeah, the technology. So we kind of went out like not a little a little tech tangent. But how do you like the last thing I thought is like at least with like posting things short form on Instagram or TikTok. For whatever reason, it makes me think of open mics stand up. Like if you're not like going super heavy edited, I'm sure people spend like weeks editing shit that gets like millions of views because they're really talented. But there's also a world where you can just like
Mishu Hilmy (14:47.65)
pitch an idea and sometimes there's something interesting about treating social media like I got this idea. Will it will it land? this story got 200 views, but this one got 20. And this, you know, real or this tick tock just kind of blew up. I think that's like a spirit of treating it like, all right, going to hit the mic and see if this works. Nothing. OK, next onto the next thing.
Absolutely. That's a really, really good point. And that's how I've kind of been using it too. So of these short form videos that I've posted on Instagram, two of them have gone viral. Thank you very much. Ask me anything. AMA. So it's interesting to examine the metrics, the analytics of these two videos that went viral and then square them against all the other work, all the other videos. Like, okay, what's special about these two? Some of it is just work.
Like I pulled the slot machine crank and these were the two times that like we happened to pay out. But there, does also help me to maybe like refine my voice or, or to like focus group, like what's working and what isn't to your point, right? Like one of the ones that went viral was it was a video that I posted.
the day after the 2024 election results, womp womp, we were all feeling sad and it was my birthday. So it was rooted in truth, right? And so I was like, man, I'm feeling shitty just like everybody else I know is feeling shitty. So I did this like comedic video from the point of view of the guy whose birthday it is the day after election results. And I posted it not expecting it to go viral at all or even build an audience because
I had that thought that kills all good writing, which is I must be the only one experiencing this. So it's not worth anything. Right. But then I post it and then everyone's reposting it. Not necessarily because it's like the funniest thing in the world, but everyone's posting it and saying like, this is so me or like, this was me yesterday or like, my God, November birthdays. I was like, wow. Okay. So I feel, and that gave me a little insight.
CJ Arellano (16:49.708)
to like my particular audience or the audience that I'm aiming for, which is, you know, of course it's funny, but it's funny because it's true. But also it's something that is true that everyone thinks only happened to them, right? Where they're the only ones who have experienced it. So it's like, it's unique to them, but it's secretly universal. This piece of content, of course, we all hate that word, this work, this narrative, whatever you want to call it, is the thing to bring that to light. So it, it.
To your point, Instagram or social media or like posting your work for free, it is good for just throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks. It's helpful for like getting to know your audience. It does have its benefits, but it's a testing ground. I resist it as like the be all end all. If I suddenly just became a quote unquote influencer or content creator, if the testing ground suddenly became the end thing, I think I would be like sad.
And of course I say this famous last words cut to me two years from now doing exactly that just so that can stay alive.
Right. Yeah, that's the future. Yeah, I do think it's analogous to sort of feature filmmaking. And I only say this because like I've changed my tune, but I've probably brought this up like five or six times on the podcast around reading this book, 2003 published Hollywood Economics by Arthur Devaney. And it's, you he's like a economist or a statistician. And it really is about how it's actually pretty random. Like there's no way to determine what's going to be a hit. Like, for example, you know, having
a bunch of star actors that might just all can that determines is like the lowest amount of money it can make. But it doesn't mean it will be a hit. So similar to like, you know, what goes viral. You can try and reverse engineer it. But I do think it's it's contextual and impossible to actually measure, much like what makes something a box office hit. have millions of people making individual decisions whether to consume it, to swipe it, to spend fifteen dollars on a ticket, similar to like.
Mishu Hilmy (18:50.912)
whatever the zeitgeist of that the day after is like, you know, millions or hundreds of thousands of individuals said, yes, I relate to this. And I think similar to like a movie, like I guess I guess I'm curious what your thoughts are around like this objective of a movie being like, as soon as someone leaves the theater, they need to think, fuck, I got to tell all my friends to see this. And that's the same thing of going viral. Like I got to DM this to my 10 closest or my two closest friends or retweet or reshare.
I think that's the bar of information of like, do you endorse this? Do you relate? Are you willing to tell people, hey, check this out? I thought of you when I saw this.
Totally, totally. Word of mouth. So that's the topic, word of mouth. I mean, think that's how stuff gets spread. Like that's, it's a very natural inclination. You know, when I saw sinners, I was like, my God, everybody has to see this. Right. And I was a week late. People like the reason I saw it immediately was because, you know, people were telling me to go see it. Same thing with friendship. Right.
And so I think that the sharing inclination, that's just kind of how things work, even without social media. Social media has made it easier for us to share. But to your question about, do we want to strive for that as creators?
I think ideally, yeah, of course we want to be like, well, I hope that other people are into this, but I think it's a gamble because of what I just said earlier. Like you have to be writing something that you think maybe nobody else thinks, you suspect that three or four other people think. Right. Or maybe you've done your homework and maybe you've talked to like three or four other people, like in private and then like, you ever, know, when you're going to the bathroom, do you ever, cetera. Right. So like the can't be too evident.
CJ Arellano (20:35.982)
that you are like following this formula, nor should you follow a formula because that's like stupid and dumb and like the formula always changes. So I mean, it's really hard to follow market trends. It's nigh impossible. And I think that what is the point I'm trying to make? It's that it's almost like a catch 22 because the second you do that, then the people who would have shared your stuff are no longer going to do it. Like there's a
kind of like iconoclastic quality to things that get shared, right? Like you're sharing it with your friend because you're like, this didn't follow the status quo. Why would you share something that follows the status quo? Like, why would you share something that's basic because then that just says that you're basic. Right. Right. Yeah. So you kind of have to like create something that is like going against the grain in some regard, like everything worthy.
Everything that is potentially shareable. I'm not even talking about like artistically Christine. I'm just talking about like shareable and sticky, right? Anything that has that potential necessarily by design also needs that built in risk of failure.
What was at least alleviating for me from reading this book is like, there is no way to determine potential. There's no way to determine if something will be viral or successful. It's virtually impossible. You can try and do things to increase probability mass, right? Things that might help it, but there's no way to determine that. like.
To me, that was freeing of, it's not my responsibility. So maybe volume is more important than crafting the perfect marketing plan. So like when you saw the, at least the data, some of those viral works, how did that kind of impact your ability to like either go like, oh, this is important, meaningful information, or this is just kind of a crap shoe. I can let it go. Like what was like the emotional or psychological response seeing that or changes you might have made or not made.
CJ Arellano (22:27.884)
mean, you know, of course the validation was really, really lovely. The validation was great. The other video that went viral was like something so incredibly stupid that again, I put very little thought into. I was in London and I mean, it's kind of an obvious joke that I feel like other people on the internet have made. It was this me coming up with like stupid names for like London tube stops, right? And extrapolating that joke to like, you know, things that sounded British but like were ridiculous. And that is the thing that went like
super mega viral, like even more than like the birthday after the election thing. And you can't really glean anything from that because I mean, one, contrary to the birthday election thing, that's a joke that other people have made online, right? It's easy. mean, I think what something I noticed about the London thing was then people would rip off my audio and use it for their own TikToks. So it's like think something to your point, your question is like, did I glean anything useful?
The useful thing that I gleaned from the videos was like trying to see how people engage with these videos and like why they're sharing it. And in the case of the London thing, it was that they could see themselves in it, right? It inspired them to like create their own thing, right? It was accessible. They saw themselves in it in like a really strange way. The high of a bunch of people sharing that video was Tia Mowry from Tia and Tamara, liked it. I'm like, my God. I have really made it. This is it.
This is it. Let me, let me print that screenshot out and frame it. you know, there's, there's validation that feels like really fun in the moment, like that. And you get the dopamine hit and then nothing really happens after that. Right. Right. It's like you can analyze the metrics, but then they don't really mean anything because the trends change the following week.
I think this kind of relates to what I was saying earlier. Like you can glean the most universal truths and like you can affirm what you already believe about who you are as an artist and the work that you're trying to create. It's almost like it, just like so much of the internet, it really just comes down to confirmation bias. Like I always believe that things work best when...
CJ Arellano (24:40.058)
Content is unique or feels unique, but it's actually universal. okay. So the two videos that I went that went viral, bear that out. Right. So it didn't reveal any new truths to me. It just affirmed things that I already believe. Welcome to the internet.
Right, right. I'm also curious if there's something to be said about effort. you know, like the like something you think like, this is kind of low effort or not necessarily unintentional, but like not precious. Something is there some sort of lesson to be gained of like, what if I was less precious with my things? Because like it's I'm, not responsible. I have no control whether this is relatable or sticky or connects with anyone. So maybe I lessen some of the expectations because I know you've done some prestige films. And imagine if you do something
things more prestigious going forward, is there a world where it's like, I can make prestige, but maybe be a little bit more gentle or less precious?
Yeah, right, right. Prestige aspirational, should say. Prestige aspirational, let's be real. Yeah, I think I definitely relate to that a lot. This idea of being less precious. think that if we're going to zoom way out and talk about how I've evolved as an artist ever since, say, high school, when I knew for sure I wanted to be a writer filmmaker, I would definitely say that my arc has been from going to super precious to just letting go, letting go, letting go.
And that continues even to this day. think early on when I was just starting out, I really made the mistake of trying to make films as if to please critics. It's a really bad, again, this is like 13 year old DJ. He doesn't know anything. So I would just read all these reviews from Entertainment Weekly and Roger Ebert and be like, what is the secret?
CJ Arellano (26:26.518)
to making a perfect movie. And if I read all these reviews, then I'll get there. And I would do the same thing with like reading like critical essays. And so I would write scripts almost like in this sick way, imagining what the reviews would say, like what the critical essays would say, you know, how they would like interpret, you know, this first image of the movie or like this symbol, this motif. And the rest of my creative life has just been about like...
getting away from them, right? And really doing the work of like a artist, an artist, a filmmaker, as opposed to a film watcher, which I would suspect a lot of filmmakers can relate to, right? Because like, why did we get into this from watching the movies? So we want our movies to be as good as those movies. But then soon enough, it's like, just with every shoot that I do, and you know, you have to let go, you cannot try to make the movie that's in your head, you have to create
the movie that has the same net effect as the movie that's in your head, right? So a lot of it is just like letting go, letting go, letting go, becoming less precious. My last short, the short that's like on the film circuit now, that is the first time that I really admitted something that I made was a comedy, right? Like I called it a comedy. For me, that was letting go because the previous thing that I've done, I've always said things like, no, well,
There's a bent of humor to it. And that was, it was twofold. It was one, kind of guarding myself against any kind of, know, that was me being insecure. Like, I don't know that it's funny enough to be called a comedy. But then it was also me being like, but I make things that aren't simply funny. They make you think, right? Bent of humor to them. So finally, just like writing a script, it's like, you know what? This is for laughs. I really want the audience to laugh. I want myself to laugh.
Yeah, yeah.
CJ Arellano (28:18.774)
Right. As the writer, as the creator, I hope people on set laughs, right. Just letting go in that way. Yeah. I think you're right. I think the more you can just really take calculated risks, throw caution to the wind, improvise and discover, but marry that with, you know, plans and strategies. Right. Then you can start to like actually create magic, magic that people are interested in watching and that resonates with them and that they'll hopefully remember.
watched you try January and like what for you when you were at the writing phase of pre-production phase of even production like progressively you're like I think this is a this is a risk like what like were you there objective moments because I think there's like choosing crabs and all that like it's just like this turns and turns and turns I just keep like sort of vomiting so like where were you like wow this is this is a this is a stretch for me like what were your like conscious levels or thoughts around risk
wrote it from a very honest place, which is that I gave up alcohol at the top of the pandemic. And that was quite by accident because we were all in lockdown and I was a very social drinker. I only drank when I went out. And so we were all trapped inside. And so there was no reason to drink. And then after a period of six months a year, I suddenly found myself being very productive. We were all productive at that time, or a lot of us were productive. And I wrote, you know,
like two feature screenplays, a short film, et I kept very busy. And so when lockdown was over, I kind of just wanted that to keep going, right? So like through that abstinence from alcohol, this indefinite absence from alcohol, relationships were changed in a way that I wasn't expecting, right? And so that's what I wanted to explore with this film. And I wanted to do it in a way that didn't feel like a memoir.
because I don't write memoir and I'm not a nonfiction writer and in a way that didn't feel preachy, like I didn't want to like come at the audience with like a quote unquote message about alcohol or sobriety either way because I don't think films should have messages either. In terms of risk, I don't want to be like, I never thought about it at all. I did know that I was creating something maybe like strange and unusual.
CJ Arellano (30:30.68)
But I think it wasn't a risk because of what we talked about earlier, which is that there was no rules, right? So the only metric for success was would I watch this? my taste is very eclectic. I love mainstream basic popcorn stuff, like really truly love it and understand that there's like a craft. Like I don't hate Michael Bay. think Michael Bay as a creator, I think he's doing a lot of things right, right? And there's an actual skill to what he's doing. But I also love a lot of
crazy weird shit and I was putting my crazy weird shit hat on like I watched How Sue a bunch of time. I was vibing on like Run Lola Run which is one of my all time favorite movies. I liked Arts and Rules of Attraction. Rules of Attraction is like all style no substance but I love the style of it. Yeah. So as long as
I think that if I had written it purposely to alienate, then it would have gone sideways, right? Then I think people would, people are responding super positively to it and I'm really grateful for that. And I think that's because I, I'm never putting myself as the writer, like up on this platform, this elevated pedestal and pointing down at people and being like, you don't get this. You don't get my strange mind. I'm trying to be very like.
maybe accessible is the wrong word, like, and staying true to again, like what I would watch. And as long as it felt like something that I would genuinely enjoy, I'm not a unique person. Other people have enjoyed how soon other people have enjoyed run, little run. Then I knew that I was on the right track and the cast and crew were on the right track. So did I think about risk? Yes. But it was never like the be all and all it wasn't risk for risks.
Was there like a sensation of like vulnerability with the text? Because like I watching it, I thought like this feels very personal, but not necessarily revelatory. It felt like there's secret or, you know, subconscious symbols that you're you're revealing from yourself. But I'm like, I don't know what this exactly is. So I was curious, like what like a level of vulnerability you felt, you know, right? Like at the end of writing or even trying to like explain this or even directing scenes or say this is what we're going to make. This is this is the thing we're making.
CJ Arellano (32:43.214)
Right, right, right. That is a great question. Again, like I said earlier, I'm not a memoirist. I'm not going to be that artist who's just cutting open a vein and be like, is me. I think that that's an important part of the puzzle. I think that vulnerability is an ingredient, key ingredient, but the way I work is I start from something true about me and then I put it through this Twilight Zone lens. And the Twilight Zone thing,
or that fantasy, strange, supernatural, whatever you want to call it, like that approach. To me, it like builds a bridge to certain audiences who might not care otherwise, right? Like making, let's make it entertaining for them. And like, to be honest, it does like put a shield up, like between me and like the end viewer or like the end consumer. And I think that's totally fine. I'm totally cool with saying like, look,
The feelings are authentic, like, you don't have to know my life. yeah. And that's the joy of fiction, right? Like, can slip in and out of things that are literally true, things that are emotionally true, things that aren't true at all, things that I just like made up, right?
And that's kind of like not your business to know and hopefully it shouldn't even matter because like you're just entertained or like along for the ride or like you're taking something of your own from it, right? Like you're having an emotional response that has nothing to do with me. And I think it is really interesting and really telling that a lot. think the majority of people who have watched it assume I drink part of it is they must be like you, you must have been super drunk to have written this.
But like, was surprised when me and my DP were doing like pickups in my apartment, you know, we're using real whiskey and he's like, is this whiskey that you drink? And this was after like months of working together. I was like, no, I don't drink. Hence the entire short film about sobriety. But I think that that's a good thing. It's like, okay, cool. That means that this wasn't just like a diary entry and people who do make memoir and diary entry, you know, confessional type work. Obviously I'm not discounting that. Obviously I...
CJ Arellano (34:52.377)
I love consuming that kind of work. I'm just saying like, for me, I prefer to be like authentic and vulnerable, but just with the feelings, not necessarily with the facts.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like any, any sort of form or structure is valuable and valid. Like low concept versus high concept are kind of arbitrary. It's just like what excites you or your aesthetic vision or principles. I really, think I prefer higher concept things. just a little bit easier to like latch onto versus lower concepts can risk being either too literal or even boring, which is fine. Like the, cinema boredom is totally, totally fine, but also melodramatic too. Yeah. I like the thing about like there's different mediums that are better suited.
you know, stand up or storytelling is probably the best medium to go. If I want to tell direct autobiographical truths, I'll just do that rather than I like a medium where you can keep iterating several degrees away to express something that is, you know, different.
100%. I mean, have like, I was about to say I have very little interest in standup. No, I think like in my crazier moments, I'm like, my God, should I do a tight five? But even then I don't think I would be like a confessional storyteller type. I would like play a character or something. I think like when, when you put up a shield, I think that that can be really interesting. You know, who does that really well? Nathan Fielder. Really?
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (36:04.834)
Yeah, right.
CJ Arellano (36:14.178)
just like messes with your mind about that stuff. You watch every episode of the rehearsal and you're wondering like how much of this is real? How much of this is real for him and how much of this is just like purely a character? I mean, it keeps an audience engaged because it kind of keeps them guessing. That's like part of that like dialogue exchange between artists and viewers.
Yeah, I mean, I was moved, oddly moved by that that last episode of this most recent season, because it's like, yeah, what are like, what is like, is he really messing with your head? Like, is he on the spectrum? I don't know. Is this just a character? Is it a commitment? It's also like the ethics of it, then you're sort of stuck with the ethics that which he's explored plenty of times with Nathan for you, and the movie of Nathan for you, but like the ethics and your implications of like, am I watching someone playing a character? Or is this a person who's maybe autistic? really, like it's right.
I mean maybe like I would love to you know do something like meta and weird and like next level like that with with my work you know maybe if I ever get around to getting like this like all eyeballs on me kind of audience then you could start to like really play with like reality like that but for me personally not quite yet
Yeah, I guess like as like sort of a comedy junkie, like I like the the very unhinged, cringey stuff like Eric Andre, Nathan Fielder, but it's just not a wheelhouse that I want to make or write in. it satisfies me to know.
100%. 100 % me too. I always think it's interesting when what people consume is like different than what they want to create. Right? Yeah. Right. Right. Like I've always been inspired by, you know, Mike White. He's having his huge moment with white lotus. And I love that he's like a reality show junkie. I think that is like, but it's like he also, his references go high and low. Right. Cause like
CJ Arellano (37:59.734)
like the Italy season of White Lotus, you know, he's referencing all those like amazing Italian movies from like the 60s, like La Ventura and everything. And I think that like, that mix of references is what makes his work have like such staying power. We know that video game, you don't know Jack and their tagline is like, where high culture and pop culture collide.
And I think that the more an artist plays with that mix of references, the richer their work becomes.
And then like for a dry January, was kind of when it came to production, how it was mostly interior is, you know, was it a pretty tight, you know, is it like four days, five days? Because it's a little bit under 20 minutes. Like what was the sort of production timeline and like how'd the edit go?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right on the money. was four days, four super packed days. I think we had the location rented out for like 12 hours a day. I think we, and we never went over. I it was like 10 to 12 hours, right? We, we shot it in, it's so hard to describe. It's like an apartment building, but it, how it's like an artist co-op, but there's, so there's like four or five different bedrooms, right? And like you would open a door and.
It's actually a room. thought it was a pantry. Probably it originally was a pantry, but then there's somebody in there, right? You're like, Oh, sorry. Right. So it's an artist co-op. And then down in the basement, they use it as a venue. It's called Unruly Collective. That's what they're called. You can look them up on Instagram. They're great. So just imagine if you've got that basement bedroom, there's like a rock concert playing right on the other side of your wall, like every night. you know, welcome to Bushwick, right? But yeah, so we found that location on Pure Space.
CJ Arellano (39:44.686)
Prueing it up was really interesting because this was the first project that I produced here in New York. I'm Brooklyn based, but I'm born and raised in Chicago. And I have like really relied on my Chicago family for all of these like short narrative projects for years and years and years. But my partner and I relocated to Brooklyn four years ago in the midst of the pandemic. And so I kind of had to amass a cast and crew from scratch. And really I was just like,
Pulling from anywhere and everywhere. I took the networking thing really seriously. A previous short film of mine played at the Big Apple Film Fest. And then it was a really great group of queer filmmakers because it was a queer block. So we were all inspired by each other's work. We connected with each other on Instagram. And then the next thing you know, it's like, hey, are you good at line producing? Can you come produce my short film?
That's how I met the producer Colin Henning, who is like an amazing, amazing filmmaker. So inspiring and saved the shoot like 9 million times. The DP I found on a platform, defunct networking platform called Spica.
which was specifically for New York based creators. So I think they made their circle of potential users a little too soon. But for like the nine months that like FICA was in existence, he and I like really benefited from that. Like that's how we met and that was great. And then, you know, the other cast and crew, just met through like people, know, like little notices on Instagram, questions on queries on Instagram, being like, Hey, do you know a great makeup artist, et cetera? So, you know, I felt a little like Danny Ocean.
just like putting together the heist team. And taking chances on certain people, if their resume or reel didn't necessarily bear it out, like just kind of going on vibes, like, I like you, I believe that like you can do this work. And maybe this is mutually beneficial because maybe you've always wanted to do this kind of work. And so like, let's help each other out, right? Actual production, it was extremely exhausting, but no crazy like drama stories. I think like pre-pro, we really kind of...
CJ Arellano (41:50.018)
like thought everything through. Of course it was just like exhausting, exhausting. And as a director, I'm always trying, I'm really trying to get better at like knowing when to give people breaks. I swear I'm get so much better than that. I'm not like draconian by any means, but I kind of, I just get in my own head. And I have to really be cognizant of the fact that even though it is a mentally draining job.
to be a director, it is not physically draining, right? Like, it's just not, it's just not. It's not as physically draining as being like a gaffer or an actor, right? So sadly, you I always, I need that assistant director to be like, you should give us a break now. my God, yes, yes, yes, so sorry. Yeah, so production was taxing, but you know, overall, like, arousing success.
Yeah, that's great. Yeah, I think I work with an AD for apolitical and we talked about I let read something about like medical procedures and you know, surgeries that kind of just run risks where they like, you know, forget to stitch something up or leave a sponge in and whatnot and how surgeons have vigilance checks. So I was like, how do I implement that within the production side? So I think we tried like 45 to 60 minutes just doing vigilance checks of like, hey, how we doing? How we doing? So it's at least baked into the schedule.
so we don't forget. And it's been like four and a half hour tear. Cause you're in a flow state, right? Like when you're just like, everyone's doing the things you don't realize two or four hours just went by. So to at least just put it on the hour, like, let's just do it two minute check in. Like we good? We still good? Do we need to take a breather? Use the bathroom?
Right, right. 100%. That is so good. I'm definitely going to bring that to the next.
Mishu Hilmy (43:31.436)
Just give it a shot. And then when it came to sort of like vetting, you know, so like some people you might not have worked with, like how did you set expectations? Like what's you know, how do you get folks on the same page, especially if you haven't worked together? You know, I've done I like reference checks. I'll do like two or three reference phone calls. Sometimes people, you know, win set that. But like how did you go about at least connecting and setting your trust and at least establishing expectations?
Totally. And this is going to sound like a joke, but I swear it's not. It just vibes. Yeah. Vibes, right? Because I, I don't exactly believe that your existing portfolio reflects everything about you. And maybe part of this is like projection, like to flashback five years, I was trying to get this like horror feature off the ground, right?
Yeah.
CJ Arellano (44:19.502)
And it ultimately got caught in development hell and is like very likely dead in the water. But back then there was a lot of momentum around it. People were interested and the, was really frustrating because people loved the script, but they weren't sure about a quote unquote first time filmmaker. I've been working for 10, 15 years, but yes, I'm a first time filmmaker. Okay. And so they'd be like, okay, well, what is his work? And this was back in Chicago when all I had like comedy web series and sketches.
that I did on, you know, like for Second City or for like Second City actors. And so it was really frustrating that that was my portfolio and people would be like, okay, well, he doesn't really know how to direct work. No, trust me. Like, I don't know how to convince you that I'm like a horror super fan. Like I'm saying, look at my, well, Letterboxd didn't exist back then, but like, look at my website and look at my blog. And I talk about all these films, but you know, that doesn't really work. So then I...
did the work of actually creating the horror stuff that I want to create. that's how I ended up doing with the last three or four shorts, right? Like, okay, fine. I will build a portfolio of examples. So I personally tend to be more comfortable with going with an actor who I think they should have experience, right? Like they should know how to be on a set and collaborate and dialogue with the director.
But like, if they haven't done drama and they want to try comedy, sure. Like, yeah, let me do a self tape. it's, the self tape is more revelatory to me than any kind of previous work you might have done, right? And that's same for like cinematographer, that same for like production designer. Our production designer, Jessalee Phillips, she did have like very colorful stuff on her website, which is what I was looking for. So like, that was great. But.
No, guess reference checks is a good idea. I can and should check references, but no, a lot of it was kind of just, do I get a good feeling from you? like, do we, not that I'm trying to find people who have the same brain because as me, cause that's very problematic. Like I don't want just someone to like be another me, not at all. Like do we, do we have, do you have a point of view, a perspective that
CJ Arellano (46:34.454)
really excites me that I think is relevant to this project. Do we communicate in some way that is not necessarily analogous, but like harmonious, right? Then that makes me want to work with you and I will quote unquote take a chance on you again, because I would hope that people would want to take a chance on me.
Yeah, yeah, it's sort of the gut check and trust like, all right, we want to chat it or, know, we see each other's work and they have a perspective or a point of view. Like, I think they can replicate that or I think they can build towards something rather than being too stringent about it. I think that's valuable. And then the the edit, I mean, I love the sound design, very strong, horror sound design for what's also a comedy. But like, I know we were talking earlier about like chatting about the progression of your
your relationship to editing. if you want to kind of talk, reveal or talk about, know, the edit for this.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I edited it myself under the alias Cinnamon Verite. So when I write and direct, then I say written and directed by Cedar Arellano, edited by Cinnamon Verite. And that kind of just came from this like traditional or conventional advice that I received when I was up and coming, which was, know, don't credit yourself too many times, right? No one wants to see writer, director, cinematographer, editor.
producer like just pick one or two or three at most and then also You know there there was this belief that if you were to establish as an editor Then no one would see you as like a writer or director which is still kind of true and that doesn't go for just like editing versus directing like I know This is so funny. I know for example a cinematographer who like
CJ Arellano (48:19.598)
gets a lot of directing gigs, like the directing gigs that I would like, you know, die for. But he's like, oh, it's a directing gig. I wish I were more known as a cinematographer. I'm like, what, are you kidding? It's like, there's the thing that you're really good at that everybody knows you for, and then the thing that you actually want to do, right? And like a lot of building a career is just like trying to get in that lane that you actually want to be in. But these days, I feel like because the industry is just like all over the place.
you know, up is down, left is right. I think people are more comfortable with the idea now more than ever of like a hyphenate or people wearing different hats. So I think the tipping point may be when Sean Baker, who's like obviously known as this like amazing indie author, writer filmmaker, he like proudly says, I've also edited my own work. Right. And he like straight up won an Oscar for it.
So I'm like, okay, maybe I don't know that I'll retire Cinnamon Verite just because, you know, she's been with me, like she's thick and thin, but maybe I won't be like so ashamed to be like, no, I edited this also and that's totally okay.
Right. Cause yeah, I think even Soderbergh like edits under a pseudonym that's clearly, clearly him. Like he's been doing it for however, like 10, 15 years, even with like presence. think it was, um, he edited it, but he uses pseudonym. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. think he cam ops presence or DP presence as well.
I do kinks too, right?
CJ Arellano (49:49.326)
It's been recommended to me like ten times already
It's yeah, it's beautiful. I loved it. was was very striking, strong final act. But yeah, I yeah, my my cynical take on the hyphenate or the comfort with hyphenate is like just exploitation, right? Like we're normalizing exploitation or it's like, OK, instead of paying for five people, we're going to pay you to do five things at maybe 20 percent more versus if those five people were hired, it would be, you know, 200 percent more of the budget. Exactly.
Yeah, 100%. People are always trying to spit multiple roles into one person. yeah, it's always like, well, one of those roles is going to get short-scripted, right? I think people do that with me. When I'm hired to direct things, I'm very rarely, if ever, also hired to edit. I think a few times that that's happened, I've been paid a fair rate for both. Maybe it's like a slight discount. It's a slight discount, but nothing like,
crazily exploitative. It's more like when I am editing for hire and then people also want me to color. Sound design do all those things and they kind of just assume that it's like under exactly. I don't play one of two ways. I'll either be like, okay, well, I mean, not to toot my own horn, but I'm great at editing. I'm less great at like coloring. that's, that's not like really my forte.
yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (50:57.9)
That's everything, right? Yeah.
CJ Arellano (51:12.896)
So you'll kind of get what you pay for. Are you okay with that? And sometimes they are. It's like, okay, great. And I can edit some, I can color something that is like safer broadcast. Like you'll see all the faces, everything, all the shots will look timed to each other, but it's not ever going to be like what a true specialist can do. I always make that clear to people. And I do make sure to like, make sure my rate reflects that even a little bit, like these additional roles. Like, okay, pay me this much and we'll call it a day.
I just think of, we were talking about uncertainty earlier. So like what, keeps you motivated given like the things that we might've been drawn toward at a platform level or at a medium level are maybe the game's constantly changing in flux. how, you know, how do you stay motivated? How do you stay connected and joyful and curious with what you're doing?
Yeah, I do struggle with that. I am really trying to quote unquote play more. And find like, the joy of play. I've even talked to my therapist about this, right? I'm like, sometimes I just like go through like the sea of obligations and like, just need to play like, go for a photo walk or like write a poem or something or just create, you know, art for art's sake. Like that's something that I can definitely like strive to do more of.
So much so it's reached comical heights. I have hired an accountability partner who's been like so amazing for me. Right. And she's really helped me. Her name is Sam Raditz and like she's helped me get my screenplay finished. She's helped me like stay on track with the novel that I'm writing. and so like she'll just like send me texts. Right. And she'll say, okay, you promised that you would have like 10 pages written. Do you have those 10 pages? So I'm like, I love her and I.
I'm so grateful to her because that is why I have completed a feature screenplay for me in record time, like in four or five months. And I'm well on my way to finishing this novel. I wish that I could be independently inspired to keep working on these things, but I'm just so driven by obligations and deadlines and the idea that somebody else is waiting for this thing to happen.
CJ Arellano (53:20.96)
that I need to like just staple that to like my monetary life to pay into this process of making sure that somebody is keeping me accountable. So I do struggle with that, but I try to quote unquote play where I can because I think that that is so essential to any creative life. Like you really should just like create art for art's sake regardless of who wants it or doesn't want it.
think of like motivations and like it's easy or it's possible to be very playful in the process. But I think getting to the process is what's challenging intrinsically. Cause it's like, can just intrinsically go like, well, nothing really matters. And there's no one putting a gun to my head. there's like, don't need to do this. So though I know I'm very motivated by process and like the joy and the act of it, I also realized like I'm very motivated.
by social things. So if I know like someone's expecting an email from me in one week, I will do that. So I do think there's something valuable about it might not be impacting your process, the play that you imbue it with, but it could be impacting your consistency. So I think there's something very valuable about using social or extrinsic motivators to maybe help juice consistency, as long as it's not impacting the joy or the play of the process itself.
Great. That is such an excellent point. Like I think the happiest and most stressful that I am during like any given project is pre-production. Really. Which is wild for me to say because I'm tearing my hair out. I'm not taking good care of myself. I'm losing sleep. I'm not eating or I'm eating too much. But it's the time where it's like the most social.
to your point, like I'm emailing, we're collaborating, we're figuring things out. And or like the social aspect is like keeping me honest. Like, well, Leo, you my cinematographer, like he's expecting the shot list on Monday. I said, so therefore I'm going to do it. So it's just these moments to your point or to our point about, of, you know, like solitary, like when the creative life becomes more solitary, that's when the consistency is really at risk.
Mishu Hilmy (55:27.382)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that's something I just keep working on. Like, yeah, pre-production I relate. It's just like, just anxious and like, or, you know, but also like kind of exciting, very exciting. But once like once it's production, it's like, I'm just in it. Like we're just there. And that's like a joy to be present and lose lose the time and there. But yeah, editing though, like post-production, I think that's where the risk around consistency is as well. Like, it's just me. It's always just like me guiding this. I love editing, but sometimes I'll be like, no, I'm not going to touch. I'm not going to touch, you know, Premiere today. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. It's so easy to do. But then even, even then, I think the best way that I motivated myself through editing was again, the social thing. The sound designer is waiting for it. Okay. I will send a text to the sound designer and be like, okay, it's coming. It's coming. I don't know. That's going to be a real challenge for me to sort of like independently create this motivation and play. It's something that I want to work on. It's, it's kind of like giving up coffee. It's probably not going
Right. Yeah, I think it's being gentle to like if you realize like you love doing the work But you struggle with kids I struggle with consistency and it's for me to know like what tricks help me stay consistent I know if I was like I think I experimented either early this year last year like anytime I didn't write I would go on Instagram and be like, alright, here's the wheel I'll give you five bucks, you know and that helped wrote a screenplay. I wrote like a first Yeah, then I sort of stopped that but I realized like if I'm struggling with consistency, maybe it's not
play that I'm struggling with, it's motivation. I think I'm going to maybe experiment with that again. But CJ, was an absolute pleasure to get to talk. think there's so much more we can talk about, but we'll save it for next time.
No, this was really awesome, Mishu. Thank you so much. And I genuinely feel inspired coming out of this. So thank you so much for that.
Mishu Hilmy (57:19.352)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed this show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your lightness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little mischie- Alright, prompt time!
Motivation.
This one is just an experiment in playing around with tone. If you have a script or a scene or a monologue, try flipping it and changing the tone. Re-imagine it with the opposite genre or just an opposite vibe or tone. So if you do a horror, try playing around it with a comedy vibe, a drama, becoming a satire. So yeah, just practice lateral thinking and playing around with creative perspective, whether it's a monologue or a script you're working on. Do a draft where it's just a very different tone or vibe.
see what you discover from that. Alright, thanks for listening.